Reevaluating Money in Senate Races (with Tiffany Bond)

Tiffany Bond.jpg

Topics Discussed:

  • Covid-19 Vaccine

  • Educational Outcomes & Inequalities

  • Moment of Hope: Marijuana Opportunity Reinvestment and Expungement Act

  • Evaluating Money in Politics with Tiffany Bond

  • Outside of Politics

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Episode Resources

Transcript:

Sarah: (00:00:22) This is Sarah

Beth: [00:00:22] And Beth, 

Sarah: [00:00:23] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.

Beth: [00:00:25] The home of grace-filled political conversations.

Beth: [00:00:00] Hello everyone. And welcome to this episode of Pantsuit Politics. Thank you for joining us. We are thinking today about the Senate races coming up in Georgia and trying to see what we can learn from races in swing States that unfolded in November. So Tiffany Bond, friend of the podcast, independent candidate for the house of representatives has come on to talk with us about Maine's Senate race.

Famously Sarah Gideon raised a lot more money and have a lot of enthusiasm, but Susan Collins ultimately won. And so Tiffany and Sarah [00:03:00] talked about reflections from that race. We'll share that with you in the main segment, but first we're going to talk about what's going on with COVID-19 with the vaccines, with education, kind of everything that's unfolding right now.

Sarah: [00:03:12] Before we get into that conversation, we wanted to share that we have a little Pantsuit Politics holiday gift guide that you can check out in the show notes. If you're looking for a last minute gifts and listen, it could be for yourself. It could be your friend who you're always sharing pantsuit politics, quotes, episodes with, we have lots of ways to support the show, show your love of the show, or just gift to a fan of the show in your life. So check that out. 

Beth: [00:03:36] The statistics right now on COVID-19 are pretty grim. Over the past four days, as we sit down to record, we've had about 10,000 deaths from coronavirus. We're nearing an average of 200,000 new cases every day. And I was reading this wonderful piece in the Atlantic that we'll put in the show notes that just succinctly described this as a split screen 

Sarah: [00:03:56] because, because we have that, that's exactly what I was going to say. I love that split screen [00:04:00] analogy. 

Beth: [00:04:00] That we have that dire news on one side and the incredible progress being made on vaccines on the other. 

Sarah: [00:04:08] We're seeing that play out in real time across the pond in the UK, they are going to start vaccinating people this week. We have the FDA authorization hearing Tuesday, December 8th as this podcast comes out and then hopefully we won't be far behind them, but you know, it is such an intense tension between seen the numbers get worse and worse and worse, and also seeing the vaccine start to be distributed either the UK or knowing it's right around the corner here.

And it's not going to be, you know, a perfect seamless process. There's already reporting that the. Hundreds of thousands of doses we thought we would be receiving for first [00:05:00] responders and long-term care facilities are not there. There are doses, you know, the Pfizer vaccine in particular takes two, but there's not as many as we were expecting, States were expecting to have a flood of this vaccine coming to them.

And instead, it's looking a little bit more like a trickle, which is really disappointing, but keeping our eye on the prize, educating ourselves about the vaccine. And this seems like a good point to share that we are going to have Dr. Chris Beyrer on, on Friday. He is an epidemiologist and an expert at John Hopkins.

And he's going to talk us through this vaccine technology, the speed at which it was developed clinical trials, so that what we really want is for all of you to go into your holiday seasons educated and prepared and like really empowered to talk about this next stage of the pandemic with your friends and family members.

 Like that this is what's coming. This is what we all need to know. So that there's lots of public information. You know, I think that that individual education component of [00:06:00] public education is. Essential. And we know you guys are the best at it, and we wanted to really get an expert in your ears to walk through this so that you're well versed, and well-prepared for those conversations, because that's the stage we're entering, right. Is, you know, it's not going to be tomorrow that the vaccine is rolled out to everyone. Right now, we're really what we really want to spend our time and energy on as they prepare to authorize these vaccines and distribute them is to educate ourselves and our neighbors about what comes next.

Beth: [00:06:32] In the meantime, we're thinking a lot about COVID and education. As new reporting comes out, showing enormous gaps in learning for students, enormous racial and economic disparities for the quality of education being received and just access to education, serious issues around students with special needs and we're just trying to, in a way that gives lots of grace to everybody [00:07:00] involved in the educational process, school boards, teachers, state officials, students, parents, everyone gets lots of grace. Also see what we can learn from what's going on right now and what the next steps ought to look like. Okay. 

Sarah: [00:07:17] I think the research and there's been a pretty good amount of research on the impact of the spring semesters and the beginning of the fall semesters on student learning is like the fullest embodiment of the nuance and complexity of our education system, because it all, wasn't terrible news. The numbers on reading looked pretty good. The numbers on math looked a little worse, some populations where we were expecting. I mean, I think people expected to see a big drop off in learning across the board. And we didn't see that.

 We didn't see that. We saw what we've been talking about with education on this show and what COVID has revealed, which there's [00:08:00] equity issues and that if you are in a marginalized population, whether you have a disability, whether you are a child of color, whether you come from a low socioeconomic background, whether you lack access to technology.

Then you see that drop off, you see dramatic losses. You see these numbers coming out from localities where failing grades have increased 110%, particularly in populations like the disability community. And I think it's just to me, it's like the fullest manifestation of, there's not one thing wrong and there's not one solution that's going to work for education.

I feel like COVID is forcing us to face the reality that public education is not one thing, right? It's not one thing for one type of child that this sort of uniform vision that we have in our heads, especially if you don't work in public education because people are without work in public education don't [00:09:00] ever think that, but I do think there's this sense of like public education as a thing. 

COVID, like everything else in public education, isn't going to act one way because the children in public education aren't one way either, right? Like we have this incredibly diverse population across localities, socioeconomic backgrounds, gender, race, everything, and it's just, it's laying it all bare. 

Beth: [00:09:29] Monday on Patreon on the Nightly Nuance, I talked about a lawsuit that's been filed by children through Guardian ad litems in California against the state of California for perpetuating inequity. And one of the comments from our listener, Brooke, that I think so reinforces what you just said, Sarah, is that she's learned that large systems inherently work well for people who fall within a standard bell curve.

But if you are more than one standard deviation out on either side of that bell curve, you [00:10:00] probably aren't being served well by the large system. And I just thought that was such a succinct way of demonstrating that public education has an enormous challenge because there are so many kids outside those standard deviations and every single one of those kids matters and their potential and their mental health and how much they're being challenged and how they're connected to their school environment and to try to serve that range of needs remotely. 

And remotely week to week in many cases, instead of decisions being made for long-term periods, it's this constant sense of, are we going to get back in the classroom or not? It's almost impossible. And what I find helpful in this research is less about critiquing what's been done so far and more thinking through, okay, what are the plans from here?

Because we have a range of capabilities coming back to our classrooms when [00:11:00] we go back to a normal way and. We know that some students are probably going to be propelled drastically ahead of others because they've had really engaged parents. Who've pushed them even harder than they might have in school.

And then we have people who are going to be falling so far behind and we're going to have people whose basic needs for attention, nutrition, activity, affection haven't been met at all. So it's just, it's enormous. And I hope that there are the resources somewhere in the system to be doing that planning right now. It's hard to imagine that though, because just keeping things afloat is taking so much effort. 

Sarah: [00:11:40] Yeah. It feels like public education has also in the sort of split screen. How do we deal with the crisis right in front of us and how do we adapt and address the issues this crisis has further exposed? And that's really hard.

[00:12:00] It's really hard. Here's what I hope happens on the level that, you know, each of us personally can control. Let me just be vulnerable and say here that I'm participating in my child's education in the way that distance learning has required has exposed the ways even as sort of the classic, nice, white parent, that I am, the ways that I sort of just abdicated responsibility, right.

Just said, I'm going to send them. I'm not going to think much about it. I know there's equity issues. I'll do what I can at my local PTO meeting and I'll, I'll vote the way I'm supposed to, but that's about it. I need my kids to go back to school without a doubt. But I hope that when they do that, I don't abandoned the lessons that this, [00:13:00] you know, distance learning has required of me.

Right. If nothing else, then realizing that it's hard to teach a fourth grader math. And you know, my child has benefited from me going over that math homework. At home, instead of just saying which I've said in my life, you get them for eight hours. If you can't handle it, then, then maybe he shouldn't learn.

It definitely said that at points in my life, just been like, I give him to you all day long. I don't wanna have to do anything once it gets home, but in the same breath saying everything should be individualized and not taking that investment on myself when I get home of what my kids need individualized and really just delegating, delegating, delegating to the public education system without seeing myself as really an essential component of that.

 And, you know, I think to a certain extent when we say we're going to, when we come back from COVID and we're going to start adapting, and we're going to start innovating, like it's going to [00:14:00] take that ongoing. Investment. And I don't mean like showing up and knowing we have the answers, but showing up and realizing we got exposed to the problems in a way we never had before.

And realizing that rebuilding from that and rebuilding stronger is going to take an enormous amount of vulnerability and enormous amount of just. Continuing to ask these questions and face the problems open-heartedly without offloading it all into the institution itself, I guess, just acknowledging like we are the institution.

When we say public education suffers, well, it's public education. So that means that the public is an essential part of that. Not just as parents, but as citizens, not just as teachers, but as citizens and this institution, as we have all seen through the pandemic needs an enormous amount of care. You know, I don't think there's going to be [00:15:00] one easy checklist we can work through, even with the Biden administration, once the pandemic is over to say, well, we'll just work through this checklist and that will solve it all. 

I think dedicating ourselves to this institution that has, you know, continue to sort of limp along. Is is the work of, I really like our generation. I think it's the work of the parents. Who've, who've sat with their children at tables, during distance learning and seeing the public education system up close and personal.

Like that's going to be the ongoing work of our generation because that's an experience, you know, God willing that. Won't be around again for a long time. And that, that sort of behind the curtains peak that experience at the table, working through simplifying our actions when you're [00:16:00] tired, exhausted, like that's something we all need to take with us.

That's something we all need to remember as we move out of this, hopefully over the next few months and think about, well, what do we want education to look like? How do we want this at this institution to begin to heal itself? 

Beth: [00:16:16] I mean, good question to hold on to in that process is how can we both accept that responsibility and adopt a posture of humility as we brainstorm what comes next?

Because school is one of those things we've talked about this before, because we've all been on some level we all think that we have expertise to bring to the discussion. And now our kids have truly been through something we have not. That was true before, but it's certainly true now. And so what feels right to us or what worked in our day is not going to get it done for this generation of kids.

And I hope that we can be really open-minded. One last thing I want to say about this, a real good news bit to come from that study [00:17:00] is that if we are reading with our kids at home, they are going to continue to do pretty well. And I don't think we can send that reminder enough. And I'm also really grateful for organizations like, um, our listener Savitha is the executive director of Tandem in California that works really hard to just get books into the hands of families and give those families resources to make the most out of reading.

And I think that's so important. And in households where that is an easy step forward. Just the more we can keep these kids reading, the better. 

Sarah: [00:17:31] I would love to see, you know, why we're thinking through this and innovating. I would love to see and I think there are organizations doing this, Bedtime Math comes to mind, where we have that same approach to math, right?

That we have this, we clearly have this disjointed approach where we have really adopted and made reading a part of our routine. And we do that with kids and we have books everywhere, and there are lots of fun ways [00:18:00] to engage with math. But the results of the distance, you know, the learning, this research shows that they felt kids fell behind in math at a much stronger rate.

And I think you're right. I think that's because there's, you know, math is not, it's not a part. We don't give, you know, fun ways for kids to engage with math at baby showers. Like we hand over books and look, that's hard for me. Math is not my strong, my strong suit. Like when I'm sitting down and trying to simplify fractions, I'm having to YouTube some of it.

Okay. But I think that's something we can think about. And, and, and. Really work on within sort of the parenting culture is how we think about math and how we engage math with our kids and not just math teachers or, you know, computer programmers, but the rest of us who don't see math as a, as a strength. 

Beth: [00:18:51] It has been really helpful to me to follow and engage with Back to Basics curriculum on Instagram. We'll put her link in the show notes as well. She [00:19:00] sent me this packet of manipulatives to work with Ellen on, and Ellen loves to get out the tiny colored bears or the little shapes that fit together in different ways. And that has just been such a godsend to help make math, like a fun game that we're playing instead of a piece of school and she has lots of ideas on Instagram about how you use that stuff. It's been very helpful to me. 

Before we hear your talk with Tiffany Bond, Sarah, I felt very hopeful about legislation that advanced in the house of representatives on Friday. Even though I know this legislation will not pass the Senate on Friday, we got a two 28 to one 64 vote to decriminalize marijuana at the federal level.

Okay. And this legislation would also expunge some federal convictions for nonviolent marijuana offenses and Institute a 5% excise tax on marijuana. And I think that makes a lot of sense. And even though I know this won't pass the Senate, [00:20:00] to me to continue to see momentum around decriminalization of marijuana is a huge part of making our justice system more equitable.

If you've ever known someone who had a marijuana offense, you see how quickly, what to me is such a small thing, spirals into something that can just be devastating. And that happens over and over, and it clearly happens more frequently to individuals of color than to white individuals. Right. And it's just, it's wrong.

And marijuana helps a lot of people manage pain and this tension between the States and the federal government over it is silly. And so I hope this gives some good momentum going into the Biden administration on an issue that I think America has developed a pretty good consensus on. 

Sarah: [00:20:48] Yeah, to me, it's such a win-win. It addresses so many of the priorities of the Biden administration, and many Americans, which is addressing the racial disparities and the conviction rates.

It [00:21:00] is addressing some of the ongoing concerns about mental health. I know so many people who have depended on THC to ease anxiety during the pandemic and you know, it is for the most part, I'm sure we're going to get some emails, a pretty safe approach to managing anxiety. And definitely there's so much evidence with regards to medical marijuana and managing long-term chronic pain.

And so not just that, but I think it's also this chance to build. Trust to show the government, hearing what people want and then doing it to, you know, expand the tax base to bring in tax dollars. When a lot of locales are suffering with that right now, because of COVID and, you know, decrease in payroll taxes. And I just, you know, on so many levels to me, this just seems like a win, win, win, and I'm so glad they 

Beth: [00:21:55] next up, we're going to hear Sarah's conversation with Tiffany Bond.

[00:22:00] Sarah: [00:22:23] Excited to be here today with Tiffany Bond. Tiffany ran for the United States Senate in Maine during 2020. She ran for Maine second congressional district in 2018 and for our new listeners who haven't met you yet, Tiffany, you were on our show twice in 2018. It's two of our favorite episodes. You, you professionally work as a family law attorney and a mediator, but you came on our show in 2018 because you had a very unique approach to fundraising. So for all of our new listeners, I think that's an excellent introduction to Tiffany Bond as a candidate. 

Tiffany Bond: [00:22:55] Well, thank you so much for having me. I thought it might be fun to come back and get an [00:23:00] update and maybe, uh, do some lessons learned from me. And I know a lot of people were very frustrated with Maine's outcome.

And, uh, certainly for me, it was like screaming at the sky while watching a slow moving trainwreck because you could see like, if you weren't in it, the way that I think a lot of consultants are in it, you could see the whole time exactly how it was going to blow up. We've got a really important Senate election with two candidates in Georgia coming up and I thought, you know, great way to catch up and great way to learn lessons from Maine and how not to repeat Maine in Georgia.

Right. Right, right.

Sarah: [00:23:37] But first tell our listeners who are new to you. You're a very distinctive approach to fundraising, which I think is particularly relevant 2020, because we have all these charts where democratic Senate candidates, outspent Republicans candidates by massive numbers, spent all this money and still lost.

Tiffany Bond: [00:23:54] Well, it turns out you can't buy an election. Right? [00:24:00] And so in 2017, I decided to run for office. I had never really contemplated running for office before. Um, I. I'm an attorney. I enjoy being an attorney. It permits me to be ethical almost a hundred percent of the time, which I also enjoy. And, um, you know, one of the things that I tell my clients is, you know, you show, you want to be a good parent by being a good parent, right?

It's, it's a choice. It's a, it's a physical expression of what you believe in. And I wanted to apply that lesson to being a candidate. So I really have a problem with money in politics. I think that right now it is virtually impossible for an average middle-class person to run. And I, I'm a pretty average middle-class person.

I drive a minivan, I have one bathroom, you know, we live in a modest home. We work we're pretty darn middle-class. So, um, when I was running in 2017, people kept saying, Oh, I want [00:25:00] to give you money. I, you know, I, I wanna, I wanna invest in you running in this race and I really want to support you. And that was great, but I didn't want to do any of the stuff they do.

Right? Like I hate political ads. Do you know anybody who likes political ads? 

Sarah: [00:25:16] No. And I think that's such a good point because I think this year is like where political ads and particularly political fundraising email jumped the shark. Like so many people were giving for the first time. And then like, I regret doing this. I should never have done this. 

Tiffany Bond: [00:25:29] Well, so Maine has a different voting system. We have ranked choice voting here. And so we have, I mean, we've always even before rank choice voting had independence in the race and I'm an independent, um, I know a lot of your listeners probably are Democrats, but I I'm an independent, um, Maine's independence sort of feel more like Democrats elsewhere on our Democrats maybe feel a little less so.

 We we've got a very strange political landscape. And so, um, It's been odd to be in two big races and watch the [00:26:00] Democrats get support nationally and just channel it into sheer waste and not living the message. And so I'd watch that before I ran for office and I thought I'm not going to do that. I think that you tell your community where your heart is by where you put your money.

And I just, I didn't want to touch it. I didn't want to be, I didn't want to look corrupt. I didn't want to spend all of my campaign time fundraising. I mean, if you think of the amount of energy it takes to raise a million dollars in a year, if you take a couple of weeks off for vacation or because your kids, whatever, you know, if you have 50 weeks to fundraise, And you drove 40 hours a week.

You have to raise $500 an hour to get a million dollars and the Maine Senate race, um, this wasn't direct spend. I think the D Democrat had a direct spend of around 68 million, but the whole race was almost 200 million in the system and where we are a cheap media markets. So it was, it was like being assaulted on a daily basis dozens of times per day.

 You couldn't turn on the TV, [00:27:00] you couldn't turn on the radio, your phone places where you never had previously had an advertisement. Everything was jumping at you. The emails like you, you just, you wanted to turn all technology on and just sit in silence. We refound our DVD collection. It was, it was pretty bad. And then in combination with that, we had, um, the pandemic, of course. So the kids were being asked to watch YouTube videos that also had political ads. It, it was 

Sarah: [00:27:28] so true. 

Tiffany Bond: [00:27:29] Oh, my gosh, so bad. So anyway, but in 2017 to loop back to that, what I did is I said, you know, I just don't want to do that.

I want the money and the resources and everything to go to the community. So I said, I don't want to do fundraising. Let's do main racing. And it was kind of cheesy, but that's what we ended up with. Um, you know, Good part, because anything else that was similar to that Googled to porn and that didn't, so that one doesn't Google to porn, or at least it didn't in 2017.

I had, I don't know if I Googled it lately. Um, [00:28:00] and so what I did is I said, take the money. And don't give it to me to take it. And either invested in a small business by buying something from a small business, give it to a not-for-profit, um, support a charity. These all need to be market rate arm's length transaction.

So if you're buying something on Etsy, you're buying it whatever the advertised price is. And if you're donating a donors, choose your you're getting a tax write-off for the amount that you donate, but use the little area that says, you know, notes to seller or notes with your donation and say, Hey, Tiffany Bond, wouldn't take my money.

She asked me to invest in the community. And so I found your business or I found your charity, and this is a great cause. And, um, You know, let's, uh, let's, let's change how we look at politics. And so I did a lot of investigation before I went into that, because I didn't want to feel like buying votes. So it needed to be that market rate arm's length transaction.

Um, [00:29:00] it's, it's really the, essentially the same as being at a grocery store checkout and gossiping with the clerk. Right. And saying, Oh my gosh, have you, you know, have you seen that Joe down the street is running for mayor? You know, here's what I like or don't like about him. I, of course, as people to stay upbeat.

I'm not sure everybody does, but you should. Um, and so we did that. We didn't. Raising instead of fundraising, we started it in 2017. Um, in 2018 I made ballot. I spent less than $800 of my own money campaigning. Um, most of that was just like postage and gas. And I got 5.7% of the vote because we had rank choice voting.

It was very close election in which reaches voting ended up flipping the race. And, um, I'm sure the Democrat strategists would not agree with this message, but they also didn't have the direct communication with voters that I did. So I can tell you with a pretty high confidence level that that's what flips the election away from a Republican who really bothered me.

I didn't care for that Republican. I didn't think he [00:30:00] should be an office. I attempted in 2020 to run it in a statewide race. So the problem with the second congressional district is it's huge. There's about 375 municipalities. So it was very difficult to say, Hey, if you're outside of Maine and you want to support me in this race, invest in a small business, you know, donate to a charity, but it check the list of make sure it's one of these 375 towns.

But that was, that was a lot of steps. Um, and I liked the idea of a statewide race. And so I wanted to say, Hey, um, you know, anywhere in Maine, Any small business, anywhere in Maine. Any charity  anywhere in Maine, any teacher, anywhere in Maine, go ahead and support them and give them money that you give to me, whether it's $5, $500, make sure you include the main racing hashtag.

And just talk about the business. Talk about what you like about my philosophy. Tell them to look me up and we'll do it that way. And I really didn't care for the way that Susan Collins has conducted herself in the last couple of decades. So that was a good race for me. Unfortunately, the [00:31:00] pandemic hit and it sort of sidelined my campaign.

I did run through the end, but it was a, it was a fairly minimal impact on the race. Um, but had we been able to apply it I think you would have seen a huge change in the outcome. And I think probably Susan Collins would have lost if it had been applied a little bit better, but the problem was we were drowned.

We were drowned with millions and millions of dollars that were wasted. And I think we all see it, right. I mean, I see it happening in Georgia. I've been sort of frantically saying, Hey, you guys, maybe don't buy every single ad space. And if you want to tell people that you are interested in helping them, we can help them instead.

I mean that $200 million in Maine. That that would have been life altering for most of our residents, we would have had a year in a pandemic where nobody had to pick between food and heat. So true. So yeah, that's main raising and a sort of meandering the way 2020 feels with [00:32:00] no timeline. 

Sarah: [00:32:01] Now, now, when you decided to run for the Senate and you were trying to get on the ballot. You ended up suing over the pandemic regulations, which you felt like were really repressive to try to get the 4,000 signatures you needed to be on the ballot. Right? 

Tiffany Bond: [00:32:17] I did. Um, I lost the initial battle and I actually ended up jointly, um, sort of squashing the, um, the lawsuit because somebody intervened and tried to make it get about them in a very awkward way that if you really are interested in, you can go see the filings there. Um, they're eccentric is probably the best word I can apply to them, but I did. Um, and you know, I knew there wasn't a huge chance of success because here's the bottom line, the laws in our country protect those who govern us and the standard that they're held to is not, Hey, was this a reasonable [00:33:00] request?

It's did you go out of your way to, you know, murder or torture this person? Right. This, the standard our government officials are held to is incredibly low. And w we saw that in the Trump administration, right? You know, people would Sue and they would be like, well, it's probably not great governance, but also it's not like technically illegal or it's not really their duty.

 And I, and I think we see this play out in lots of areas. Um, when you see suits like I, there was a lawsuit, not that long ago where, uh, you know, it was ruled that it's not the job of the police to protect and serve, despite that being the motto of like a ridiculous amount of police forces so, um, yeah, it, it, it wasn't as successful as I would've liked.

I think that I had a, a pretty compelling case, but I mean, the standards we hold our government officials to are kind of awful. 

Sarah: [00:33:51] Okay. So tell us, watching what happened in Maine. The first thing we want to know is listen, uh, here [00:34:00] at Pantsuit Politics, we stand hard for ranked choice voting and you had ranked choice voting in the Senate and the Senate campaign. So how did that play out? What did you see? What did you notice? What did you learn?

Tiffany Bond: [00:34:09] Well, so the problem is it didn't go to rank choice voting. Susan Collins just won. Oh, it never even got below the 50%. So they use it. Yeah, because the campaign run against her that had the money was just that bad. I mean, you actually had to try to to make it.

 Like, I can't tell you how unpopular Susan Collins is in a lot of the states, also popular in parts of the state too, but, uh, you know, the argument that that was needed and all of the analysts just skipped independence entirely and something that's becoming less unique, but has been historically sort of unique to Maine is we have more unenrolled or in nationally it would be called independent voters then either Democrats or Republicans.

 Like we are the bigger, the biggest [00:35:00] voting group. Um, and we don't necessarily vote the same, but there's more of us and they ran a campaign both, both Gideon and Collins ran campaigns that address to the independent voter without addressing the independent voter. And Susan Collins has been doing it for a lot longer and she's way better at it.

And so you can't try to out Susan Collins, Susan Collins, right? I mean, that's, I think that we saw that in a bunch of entrenched races, people were trying to either come at candidates or come at incumbents with a candidacy that said I'm not this person. That's not a very good pitch or they tried to out that person, that person, and both of those were tried and main, and neither of them is an effective strategy, particularly if you're looking at actual swing voters.

Right. So I I've done kind of like a video demonstration of this, I should probably wrap it on, on social [00:36:00] media. If you look at the left and you look at the right, especially in a ranked choice System, you know, Republicans are generally going to vote Republican. Democrats are generally in a vote Democrat. You can adjust those by how passionate people are and how many of them turn out.

But you're not super likely to change the voting proclivities. The people that you have to speak to. And they're not necessarily ideologically in the middle, but they're people that aren't emotionally attached to either the Republican or the democratic party and are racist don't attract those people.

And that's, I mean, that's why you're seeing losses is Republicans generally vote a little bit more consistently and they generally vote for Republicans more. 

Sarah: [00:36:48] You still think that's true in this election what there was such historic turnout? 

Tiffany Bond: [00:36:53] Well, Maine always has high turnout. I mean, we had a historic turnout for us, but it's. [00:37:00] Uh, Maine politics, that part of Maine politics. I don't know if that necessarily carries over to other races because we're such a different political climate. 

Sarah: [00:37:10] So one thing I was reading about Maine Senate race, and particularly the calculus of ranked choice voting was this was the first Senate race under the ranked choice voting, correct?

Tiffany Bond: [00:37:23] No. 

Sarah: [00:37:23] Was Angus King's race, the last one, the first one?

Tiffany Bond: [00:37:26] Yeah. So that was, so I guess Kings was the first one that could have gone to rank choice voting. And in a lot of sense, I mean, this was just like Angus King's race, he just won. I never went to rank choice voting 

Sarah: [00:37:36] So it seems like what's happening is the particular, the incumbent campaigns are just ignoring rank choice voting and pretending like it's a first to post and that the challengers are making the same mistake. Like I was reading about how Sarah Gideon, the local media left out the two independent candidates of [00:38:00] the debate. 

Right? And so then when she, you know, this columnist and one of your local papers was making the argument that like, if she had included them and said, no, I won't come unless you include everybody and acknowledge that there are voters attached to these rank choice candidates and started to, instead of just thinking about as first pass the post, acknowledging, like this is the strategy we want to get, we want to get to the ranked choice.

Because it would probably help her that, that might've been the smarter move. That it's one thing if you're in the incumbent and you're just trying to get past 50%, but to be the challenger and pretend like you're still first past the post, when ranked choice voting could actually help you, is the mistake.

Tiffany Bond: [00:38:37] Correct. And that's actually a point that I made, um, pretty early on. Um, the, the way that the campaign was run was it was just appalling from the beginning. I mean, uh, And every time I spoke up, I got, Oh, you're an independent, you're just trying to ruin it for her. And I'm like, no, I kind of want Susan [00:39:00] Collins out of office.

And I'd prefer it's me the replacer, but good gravy. I want her gone. Everybody was excluded from the race. The way that this race was run, is it looked like it was an attempted purchase by federal level DSE. I mean, that's what it looked like. They, they took a race. So. Um, they took a race that was already running.

There were already multiple candidates that were Democrats that were running in the primary and they dropped in a DSC endorsed candidate. And even before they dropped her in, so when at one of the candidates enter the rates, Betsy Sweet, she launched her campaign. I'm running for the U S Senate. Betsy Sweet is very well known.

She'd ran for governor before. She's been an activist for a very long time. She. Almost single-handedly helped develop our clean election system. So although her political ideology is not in the same space as mine, I certainly have respect for her as a candidate. She launched her campaign and less than 24 [00:40:00] hours, there was a not so subtle message sent out that said, don't give any money to her. We have another candidate coming in and it was remarkable enough, the field clearing that they did. Um, if you. Aren't familiar with field clearing as you basically chasing all the other candidates out of the race. And so what happened is they dropped in Gideon.

She was endorsed by the DSC before the primary. She came in with millions of dollars, just thrown at her, tons of endorsements, people who, you know, and independent and other, um, uh, that the Democrats in the primary, I mean, leaving aside my dislike of of endorsements generally, there were certainly a few organizations I reached out to and said, Hey, when are you going to be, um, doing endorsements?

And they said we're not going to do anything until after the primary, we want to give everybody a fair shot. We want to know who's on the ballot. Great. And then suddenly they were endorsed saying Gideon, so that wasn't accurate. And it actually like this election really undermined a lot of the nonpartisan [00:41:00] organizations that do have political activity in the state, it, it made a lot of us who are independent step back and be like, wow, you know, you say you're for XYZ, but you're not. 

So they did this phenomenal field clearing exercise. The primary was a joke. Um, there were, uh, on the primary ballot, there were. There were four candidates that made ballot, three of them were GLBT.

And, you know, the Gideon couldn't even step back on a day that was related to, you know, GLBT issues and say, Hey, you know, I realized that I'm in the forefront here and I have the money, but this is the day when we should really be listening to people who are these vulnerable categories? No, I mean, it just completely ignored those, those categories and said, I'm the best candidate for you.

Um, and just didn't participate in forums. Didn't show up in indivisible groups, um, had multiple, multiple events canceled. I know I was invited to [00:42:00] events that were canceled because Gideon wouldn't show, some events went on without her, but, you know, had absolutely no views because she wasn't there. And every bit of energy went into making sure that nobody had resources, but Gideon.

And that was a huge message. Because with other candidates and a rank choice vote. If you're supportive, if you're inclusive. If I had been the money candidate, I would have said, I'm not going to participate in forum, unless all the candidates are there. I'm not going to participate in the debate, unless all the candidates are there.

Even the ones that are a little eccentric, because this is about democracy. And this is a year when we really need to be protecting democracy with everything. 

Sarah: [00:42:38] And they're basically campaigning for you in a way, right? If you're the, if you're the hands-on favorite. And sure you have lots of money and you can reach, try to reach as many people as you can with television ads,  why would you pass up the opportunity for people down the ballot to campaign for your side at least, and lots of varied in [00:43:00] different ways? They're going to reach people, your ads won't reach because for if, for no other reason than they might know them, and they might have personal connections with them and relationships with them and their outreach is going to be different.

And then if you can  move to the rank choice and you know, they're not going to win their votes are going to go to you anyway. 

Tiffany Bond: [00:43:16] Exactly. So essentially everybody's campaign is not guaranteed to collapse into the favorites campaign. It's not guaranteed. And in Maine, if they don't like you, they'll just no vote you and they just, they won't vote for you.

Um, they'll, they'll vote for another candidate and they will just won't rank you at all. Um, and so it just could have been such a different race. So, you know, if the primary had been inclusive, what would have happened is you would have had, uh, you know, the, the three candidates. They would've had their supporters, not all of them, but a lot of them would have been like, Hey, you know, my candidate didn't win and that sucks, but I'm willing to work for you because you were really supportive of [00:44:00] listening to my candidates, different opinions and how things were done and showed where you guys get along and where you disagree on policy. 

And that was very respectful and I feel heard, right. But that was completely skipped. They skipped the whole, I feel heard part, so independence, of course, you know, we're the ones that swing races and in Maine, and we're watching this and we're like, wow, we're not gonna trust anybody who will shank their own party members. Like why would we trust you? You just totally trampled over everybody in your party and like a complete mockery of a primary. So, you know, they went through the primary to that extent. And then of course the same thing happened with other once you got past the primary, the behavior didn't change.

So yeah. Um, you know, it, as soon as there was a winner declared the primary Gideon and college, they're like, yeah. I challenge you to five debates. Well, I challenge you to 16, one in every County and independence where like, Hey, yo, um, We're happy to debate and we'll have [00:45:00] a real substantive debate instead of just yelling about Mitch McConnell and Nancy Pelosi.

Like we'll, we'll have a real debate with you on issues, which would have disfavored. I mean, both candidates, but ultimately probably would have benefited the Democrat because what you have, and, and you were alluding to this earlier, is if you'd had that full, rich supportive, Voice from the Democrats saying, Hey, listen to me.

Also listen to the independents. If they get knocked out, I'd like you to consider me as your number two, please. This is where we get along. This is where I think that I'd advance your policy goals. Not only do you potentially pick up all of those independents. But the other thing that you do is you, you spread the fire.

If you had five people on a debate stage, you have four people taking hits at Collins and Collins only able to fire back at one. Right? Right, right. The humbling part of this, if you're the preferred party candidate, is that you [00:46:00] have to acknowledge that in doing this, you know, there's a chance that you might swap places with the independent and you might be the one who loses and they might be the one who wins, but.

Uh, you know, Democrats have been asking us to suck it up for a hundred years, so maybe they should suck it up a little too, right? I mean, not to be too snotty about it, but the, if you want, if you want independence to grant you the respect and courtesy of listening to your candidate, you have to extend that courtesy to our candidates.

And in a rank choice voting system, it is beneficial for you to do so. It is beneficial for you to respect democracy. It is beneficial for you to say, Hey, you know, we agree and we disagree on these things and listen to both of us and make your own decisions. It is beneficial to respect voters, and that didn't happe. Instead, they took a whole bunch of money and basically set it on fire, but not close enough to anybody where they could at least like warm their hands in the winter because that might've actually been helpful.

Sarah: [00:46:59] So, [00:47:00] no. How do you think this applies to the Georgia Senate runoff? Because now we do just have a first pass the post. It's not the general primary anymore. You just have two candidates, 

Tiffany Bond: [00:47:08] correct. 

Sarah: [00:47:09] How does that change your perspective? I mean, what do you think there is to learn? I mean, cause it's not just in Maine with the ranked choice voting where we had incumbent Republicans that were thought to be vulnerable winning by, you know, 10, 20 points. That happened lots of places. 

Tiffany Bond: [00:47:24] Yeah. So I think that's where you get back to the money part of it. And I think that's where, you know, I can come on your program and maybe a way other people can't because I can tell you, this is how you use money in a way that swings people to your cause. Right. If you send an ad out, he's ever changed anybody's mind.

Like, do you get those postcards and go, Oh my gosh, you know what? I can't vote for Bob. Right or, Oh my gosh, I'm going to vote for Karen. Like this, this, this sold me. This one postcard man. I'm all in in fact, let me call up the headquarters and I want to donate and I want to volunteer. [00:48:00] No, they don't change anybody's mind. 

You might as well be setting the money on fire and the, the way that you show the community that they're important and valuable to you is you redirect those resources. It is more effective if the candidate is somehow selves are saying, Hey, for every $5, you give me, please spend $5 at a local business, or please donate $5 to the classroom of your choice on donors choose, or please give $5 to this, this domestic violence shelter that you know, that certainly would have more impact than what I am suggesting.

 But what I'm suggesting is in lieu of that. Instead of giving your money to consultants who will clearly just set it on fire and clearly just torture everybody. The, the amount of money that's going to be focused on Georgia is going to be comparatively similar to what was it's focused on Maine. And this is a runoff election. So anybody who was going to vote for those guys already did right. [00:49:00] So all you have left to pick up are new voters, people who didn't want to vote for either one of them or people who voted for a third party candidate, that's it.

Those are your that's your voter supplies. So you are really limited to who you can swing and the way you get those people is by saying, you know what, I'm going to go. And I'm going to buy one Christmas present from Georgia. And I'm going to leave a note to please look up these candidates and that I want to make sure that we're investing in our communities and I'm doing this in honor of these candidates.

Um, give them a look up or I'm in a, I'm going to fund this classroom. I actually, somebody suggested, you know, we shouldn't be applying this to Georgia and I was like, please, please do. So I have a thread going on my Twitter account. Gosh, we, we funded probably 200 classroom projects now. Um, and, you know, imagine being a teacher who logs in and sees just note after note, you know, I'm supporting your classroom in honor of these [00:50:00] two Democrat candidates, right.

I, I really hope you give him a shot because I believe in community and I support them. And I really want to make sure that you have a candidate that supports you back. Yeah. And, and so. The, the impact of, Hey, somebody, you know, pulling up an order and I need to ship out an order and, Oh my gosh, somebody just bought something from me because of one of those candidates, or I now can provide my students with a remote learning tool that I didn't have it accessible to because our budgets are too tight.

 Or, um, you know, now we can provide three extra bed spaces in this domestic violence shelter, because people are donating in honor of these candidates. That is going to be so much better for impact so much better for bang for buck, then any other spent dollar for dollar you can possibly do, particularly in a pandemic, particularly in a runoff. Hmm. 

[00:51:00] Sarah: [00:50:59] I love that. I love your thought process on fundraising. And I mean, cause it, it, listen, I don't know anyone, including the Senate candidates themselves. That, like you said, see those names, 80 million, 20 million, just millions and millions of dollars.

I read this morning that we spent more than, I think it was 2012 and 2016 combined this year in the middle of a pandemic when people can't pay their rent. And when people are laid off and we can't get COVID relief, but we're just plowing all this money. And look, I don't, I don't want to say it has no impact because the truth is those are jobs. Two jobs at local TVs, low jobs and local radio jobs and local papers.

Uh, definitely lots of print and mailing companies make their living off elections. And I get that. But. You know, it, it does seem like the impact could be different. And I do think that there were so many people who contributed, I mean, I know family members who like contributed for their first time, or like, I will never do that again, just because the inbox was flooded, they felt like it [00:52:00] didn't have a huge impact because the numbers were so massive.

And so thinking about how to have an impact this way, where you're supporting beyond just local media in your economy, And spreading the candidates name and truly a perfectly socially distanced way 

Tiffany Bond: [00:52:17] perfectly. It was meant for a pandemic. Right? You can do a digital knock using gossip for positive change without putting on pants.

That's right. That's right. You can't be that, like this method was meant for introverts. It was meant for people who don't want to drive to someone's house. It was like, it is perfect for that. And I think that. Yeah. You know, short, local media benefits, but I, you know, I worked in marketing before I was an attorney and I sold printing at a print shop.

He didn't make hardly anything off of those political mailers because they are done at almost no profit and sometimes at a loss. And whenever there was a mistake, they [00:53:00] would ask the print company to eat it. So. I don't know that those are contributing that much to the economy. Um, I do know that if you were to dump $200 million into Maine's economy and have it start circulating around, boy, it would make a huge impact.

And I'm sure the same applies to Georgia. I'm not going to tell Georgia how to run their elections, but what I can tell you is by all economic matrices that I can see rural Georgia is right around the same poverty level as rural Maine and justice resource starved. And if I were sitting in my home in rural Georgia with a little side Etsy business, trying to figure out how to get my kids at Christmas present, boy, I would appreciate a sale a lot more than a 

Sarah: [00:53:47] yup.

Yup. Well, thank you so much, Tiffany, for coming on the show and sharing this with us, we love to hear from you as always. Your honesty and transparency are always very much appreciated here at Pantsuit Politics. 

Tiffany Bond: [00:53:58] Oh, well, and I love [00:54:00] you probably my favorite podcast in politics. So, um, you know, if there's ever anything else I can provide you guys, if I have to send you run again, I'll hit you up.

If, if anybody wants to follow the journey of me being probably more direct than a lot of people appreciate, I am out of civil hints to give, and I am perfectly happy to share that information. Um, you know, I'm @Tiffany Bond and I'm. Boring and middle-class and understand law. And I'm just like all of us. I mean, I think the problem is we have this different political class we've created and until we get more people who are like us running for office, we're going to keep coming up with these horrible laws and awful governments. 

Sarah: [00:54:42] On that hopeful note, thank you for coming. 

Tiffany Bond: [00:54:48] Thank you so much for having me.

[00:55:00] Sarah: [00:55:12] Beth what's on your mind outside politics. 

Beth: [00:55:14] It's a small thing, but a significant one to me, I have taken in a lot of British and Australian entertainment lately. I watched the Great British Baking Show religiously. I can only fall asleep if I have seen people working through some eclairs or something like that.

I have read a couple of books based in the UK and Australia. And what I've realized is that there are two words prevalent in the sources that I feel we need to embrace in America. And those words are mate and cheers. Okay. I don't think we have a good equivalent of mate. I've thought about this a lot.

Something that conveys warmth and affection, but also. Is not too familiar, right? Nothing about mate seems insulting to me. [00:56:00] I thought through how very offended I was by a doctor I interacted with last week who called me honey and dear a million times, even though I'm positive that this person was younger than I am.

And I tried to be nice about it, but it just really bugged me. I use friend a lot, the way that you would use mate. But then I think that kind of degrades what friend means in my life a little bit too, because that's friend is a pretty special thing. So I just really love mate. I think it would be helpful and cheers for the same reason.

I think it conveys something really warm and positive and is just a lovely way to say something when you really don't have anything else to say, it just feels like if you're not sure where to go, but you want to keep everything light and positive. Cheers. I wish we had that. I would like us to do it. 

Sarah: [00:56:44] I love that.

Listen, I am a long-term Anglophile. I mean, that doesn't even seem like the right word, because when you look back at my ancestry, like that's, that's all that exists is the UK. [00:57:00] Like, I don't have any French. I don't have any Spanish or German or Dutch all the way back. Scott, Irish, English. That's it. That's, that's the entirety of my genetic building blocks.

So there's something about that culture that is just like deeply soothing to me, particularly in the winter. I'm reading Wintering right now by Katherine May and she's British. I love the way she writes about the time of year over there. And I'm also have formulated a little, a weekly ritual where my husband and I watch The Crown and Ted Lasso every Sunday night.

It's like appointment television, which that you just have to create yourself now because you can binge everything, but I've chosen not to binge this. And it has been such a gift. I love, love, love the fact that like, this is our Sunday night TV. It's. So British and it's like the perfect combo. Cause it's like the good juicy Royal British.

And then I just [00:58:00] get to finish off the evening with a, just a lovely, lovely dose of Ted Lasso. And you know, it's just this time of year, I don't know what it is, but like I want. All the English things. I want all the TV. I want all the books I want. I just made my husband go to the international grocery and buy me all the digestives and the biscuits and the really good international jams.

Like I want a nice, uh, bitter orange Marmalade. Like I'm just all, I'm all in on it. It's just something about this time of year, man. It's like, all I want to do is be British, kinda deep down. You 

Beth: [00:58:38] know, there's a layer of me too, not to detour too much, but I'm so grateful for the success of the great British baking show and Ted Lasso.

And Schitt's Creek falls into this category for me too, because I think for most of my lifetime, we have thought that in order for something to be funny, it has to be delivered with a real sharp [00:59:00] edge. And I love that the shows are really engaging and really funny but so kind like at the base of them, there is just this underlying kindness.

I think that's why the David Sedaris thing went bananas on Twitter this weekend. If you didn't see it, David Sedaris delivered a monologue on CBS Sunday morning about how he would like us to have a citizens right to fire people. And Twitter did not react kindly. And I watched it and understood what he was doing.

And I think a few years ago that would have gone over very differently for numerous reasons. But the biggest thing to me is just that is not what anybody needs right now. No one needs a sharper edge right now. And no one needs something that says, look at all the people around you as useless and unconnected to you. You know, and I just, I'm so thrilled that shows like Ted Lasso that have this underlying message of goodness, a competition baking show has [01:00:00] all these people who support each other so happily.

And when they get kicked off they're just grateful for the chance to have been there, it's just what we need. And I'm so happy that we're receiving it that way. Well, we hope that we are filling that need here with you as well. Thank you so much for being here. We are really excited to bring you Friday's show with Dr. Chris Beyrer, where we talk through the vaccine, how it's been developed, try to answer any concerns that might be on your mind and until then, keep it nuanced, y'all.

Beth: [01:00:42] Pantsuit Politics is  produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Sarah: [01:00:46] Alise Napp is our managing director. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

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