Nashville: Heartbreak, Exhaustion, and Responsibility

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Nashville Covenant School Shooting

  • Outside of Politics: The Gwyneth Paltrow Ski Trial

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EPISODE RESOURCES

Moms Demand Action

UPCOMING EVENTS

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

[00:00:26] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics, where we try to take a different approach to the news. Today, we're going to be discussing the heartbreaking school shooting in Nashville, Tennessee, as well as and in dramatic contrast to the Gwyneth Paltrow skiing lawsuit. Because why not? Why not balance incredible trauma and heaviness with a ludicrous celebrity trial?  

Beth [00:00:48] Before we do that, we are excited to finally be hosting our live event in Orlando, Florida, next Wednesday. It's days away. I can't believe it. So, if you don't have your tickets, you still have time. Head to the show notes. You can grab them. Show is at 7:00 p.m., and we have a special meet and greet time for premium members before the show from 5:30 to 6:30. If you're not going to be in Orlando next week, no worries. We're going to be in other parts of the country yet this spring. You can see us at the Allen County Library in Fort Wayne, Indiana, on April 26 or at the Fort Worth Crowded Table, meaningful conversations event in Texas on May 4th. Both are going to be really fun. Again, all the details in the show notes. These are our last public events until the fall. So, if you're nearby, we hope that you'll come see us.  

Sarah [00:01:32] Next up, we're going to talk about the heartbreak in Nashville, Tennessee. On Monday, there was a mass shooting at the Covenant School in Nashville, Tennessee. Three adults and three nine-year- old children were killed. The shooter, 28-year-old Audrey Hill, was killed by the police. The gender and gender identification of the shooter is a complicating factor. It was reported almost immediately that the shooter was a woman, which is very unique, as most mass shooters are men. I got a text message, Beth, from my cousin in Nashville, which in a lot of ways is still a small town, that said, "My mom told me the shooter was trans." And I said, okay, well, let's just take a minute. Let's wait till that's confirmed. Let's not fall down this rabbit hole. And then it was confirmed pretty quickly. And I assumed, as I think many did, that the shooter was a trans woman, born a man, but identifying as a woman. But it was then confirmed that Audrey Hale was born a woman and had been identifying as a man. And I texted you and said, "Well, after seven years, I have found a new story I have no interest in talking about on the show." Because it's like Chat GPT invented a new story with all the worst combinations of American cultural controversies.  

Beth [00:02:50] Right. Because you have a trans shooter, you have a private school, you have a private Christian school, you have the gun violence, everything that makes us emotional and at complete odds with each other and at risk for really oversimplifying complex things and at risk for really dehumanizing People who disagree with us is present here in an absolutely heartbreaking scenario. So, I want to acknowledge at first that I'm not sure there's a way to talk about this shooter that everyone will feel comfortable with and good about. And, for me, it takes me back to first principles of anytime we talk about a mass shooting, I don't want to dwell on the shooter. The shooter is a person who was clearly suffering from some kind of mental health emergency. And there are people who love that shooter. And I feel for them and I feel for all of the complexity that they have to hold around the identity of the shooter-- but I don't. I can hold the complexity and space around the victims here and around all of the people across the country who are once again thinking, how do I put my kid on the bus or how do I show up at work tomorrow as a custodian or a cafeteria worker or a teacher or a principal or-- 

Sarah [00:04:11] Or a substitute.  

Beth [00:04:11] Or a substitute? That's where I'm going to put my heart. And I do not in any way want this tragedy to be used to further harm a community of people who are statistically so much more likely to be victims than perpetrators of violent crime. I don't want to dive into a culture war. I just want to think, here is our shooter and I'm going to leave that person there and keep my thoughts with what we do to comfort the victims here and continue to move forward.  

Sarah [00:04:48] And from what I have seen in my own life and my own social media feeds, that seems to be the reaction. I was expecting a lot and I have not encountered it and that has encouraged me. There's the usual trolling from the likes of Marjorie Taylor Greene. But, overall, I have not seen a lot of discussion around the identity of the shooter. And I am encouraged by that. I think that is a good first principle. Let's focus on the problem here. And the problem is simple. There are too many guns. That's my first principle. There are too many guns. Now, we're going to talk about a lot of things after that. But make no mistake, that is the issue. We have too many guns in our country. Okay. The other thing I was encouraged by in the immediate aftermath is a couple of things. There does seem to be a solidifying energy around an assault weapons ban. Do I think we're going to get that out of the current House of Representatives? Of course not. But I think the reporting like from The Washington Post that did a piece on "What does an AR-17 do to a human body?" I thought was powerful. Still, not for nothing, pretty sanitized. There's all these warnings on this is triggering, this is violent. But because it is focused on what happened to a child at Parkland and a child at Sandy Hook, like specifically their injuries. And so, it is personal, but it is still sanitized. It is still a grayed out like not human looking body that they are illustrating what these weapons do. But it's a step in the right direction because it is still pretty horrific and it is something that I think people are increasingly understanding that this weapon is different. That you get shot with a handgun through the shoulder, you might make it; you get shot through the shoulder with an AR-17, you probably won't because it just explodes. It just disintegrates everything in its path. So, I thought that reporting was valuable. And it seems that we are moving that conversation forward. We've gotten feedback from listeners about conversations with their family members where there has been movement, where there has been small encouraging movement and messages from listeners themselves where they said, "I was smug, I thought this couldn't happen here. I see it now. What can I do?" So, I just want to center that first, because I think the narrative that "nothing changed, we chose this" is both incorrect and not helpful for what it's worth.  

Beth [00:07:19] Well, I want to say about the AR-17, that this situation is a case study in that because here we had, by all accounts, school personnel who did everything exactly right, and police who did everything exactly right and six people are still dead.  

Sarah [00:07:36] Yeah. Did you watch the video?  

Beth [00:07:38] It's incredible. The police response is incredible. We had nothing like Uvalde here. There seems to be no ambiguity. The school reacted textbook perfectly. The police reacted textbook perfectly. And six people are still dead.  

Sarah [00:07:54] Yep.  

Beth [00:07:56] To your point about progress, which is hard to hold when six people are dead senselessly and tragically and gruesomely, I do not want to deliver my children hopelessness. I lament that we live in a world where I can't promise them that they're safe at school or anywhere else. I would lament it even more, though, if what they inherited from me was a sense that the world can never be better. That's false, and I think it's wrong. And because I am not in the position of personally knowing and grieving these children, I do grieve them. I have shed tears about this as I know many, if not all, of you have. But because they are not mine to mourn, I have felt a sense of responsibility this week to stop shouting into the void and to figure out where can we get more of that progress. So, living where I do, I have Thomas Massie, who sends a Christmas card with assault rifles on it every year as my representative. I have a newly elected state representative who touted her Second Amendment credentials in the race to be elected. I have Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul as my senators. Those are the people who represent me for better or worse. They have been duly elected by the people where I live. So, I thought, as I sat down to contact them, where could I maybe get a yes? Where could I maybe get some kind of agreement or momentum or progress? And so, I wrote to them about something I never thought I would endorse, but I feel like we could get to yes on school resource officers. We have them in the county where I live because our county has prioritized having school resource officers on site. And because we have figured out how to use our budget to pay for it. And I think that's wrong. I think where our legislators are unwilling to do anything about too many guns, they should at least be willing to foot the bill for safety in schools to the best we can get it. And I think having a consistent, well-trained, engaged school resource officer is one step that I have moved on. I will support that. And I think it ought to be paid for, so that's what I ask for. I said to our federal representative, I would love for you to get federal funding here or use your influence in our state to get our state legislature to move on it. And I said that to our state representative. Here is my ask. Another thing I've moved on is metal detectors. I am at a point where if every place in our society has to feel like going through TSA, I'll do it. Because you have said it so many times, there are too many guns and they are not going to cease to be too many guns. Even if we ban assault weapons or ban certain categories, or ban the manufacture and 3D printing of all weapons from here on out, we still have more guns than people in our country. And we are going to. And in air travel where our alternatives are inconvenience or terror, we have chosen inconvenience. And so, I'll take it. I will take the inconvenience everywhere to stop the best we can the terror that we are experiencing in our schools right now.  

Sarah [00:11:22] I wholeheartedly agree with you. When the school shooting happened at my high school, I was so frustrated by the bag searches and we had IDs. Well, our shooter would've had an ID, he was a student there. But as I've gotten older, I understand our parents desperate need to do something. And I do think we're at a point here pragmatically where there are just an enormous amount of guns in our society. And so, we are going to need more safety precautions. Do I think that always involves another person with a gun? I do not. I don't think it never involves another person with a gun, but I don't think it always involves another person with a gun. Because watching the video of the police, you just realize the training that is involved in a situation like that. And I thought The New York Times did a great writeup that was, like, don't just say like they were better than Uvalde because it was a very different scenario. It's a very different training when the person is barricaded in a room versus when they're in an open setting. I think that the political reality is difficult and I don't appreciate people who don't own that. It is not just duly elected senators who feel this way. It is gerrymandered representatives. The representative from that district was recently gerrymandered. That's a difficult change. It is a Supreme Court that has upheld the Second Amendment at every turn. That's a difficult change. Now, look, I'm ready to put it all on the table at a constitutional convention. Let's do it. I don't care. I'm an Enneagram One. I'll risk it. Let's go. But I don't think everybody feels that way. And I live in a democracy, not a dictatorship as much as I wish I did. And so, I really want to hear people own the complexity and I want to hear exactly what you articulated. I want to hear a helpful pragmatism that moves us in the right direction. The person I appreciated most on social media the day after the shooting was Kelley Hart, who said, "Conservative friends, we need you. We need you to move on this." That's helpful. That's helpful.  

[00:13:24] I'm going to be really vulnerable here. And it's going to be a bit of a journey and I'm going to cry, but here we go. When I lost a pregnancy at 20 weeks, I had a really lovely woman who had been through the same experience reach out to me. And she said that she chose to give birth. And the language she used was "I felt my baby deserved that." I had already chosen differently. I chose to have surgery. I never held the baby. I did not learn the baby's gender. I did not name the baby. And I thought, well, does that mean mine deserve something less? And ever since that moment, I have some real sensitivity around the word deserve. When we say our children deserve better, what do we mean? My child has type one diabetes. He could die at any moment from a low blood sugar. What does he deserve? What does he deserve? What did the children in Ukraine deserve? I think we need to get rid of this language. I will never as long as I live, forget Dan Evans saying, "I thought I deserved time with Rachel, but that's not how life works." And when we tell ourselves that, I think it creates more pain. It creates more pain because what we deserve doesn't have a lot to do with human suffering. What we deserve is a path to pain and disappointment and even intense grief. And I think that is what frustrates me so much in these moments, because, of course, a nine year old doesn't deserve to be gunned down in their school. But the world is full of human suffering that people do not deserve. So, what are we going to do? And can we own how difficult that action is?  

[00:15:30] I just think we're in this vortex. Like you said, we're screaming into the void. We're angry. We want to shame these representatives. Do I find that Christmas card disgusting? Of course, I do. Do I think that men would weep in the same way I would if his children were killed? I do. He has chosen a different path in the face of that fear and terror. He has chosen a different path than I have. But he loves his children as much as I do. And I just don't want to do this anymore. I have been doing it since I was 17 years old. I don't want to do it anymore. Of course, I don't. But I also don't want to get wrapped up in this seemingly endless cycle of shame and self-righteousness and disagreement and conflict. I don't even know how to describe it, because I do think we've made progress. And I do think the gun legislation that passed after Uvalde, will it fix the amount of guns we have in our country? No. But is it a once in a generation investment in mental health? Yes. Will that matter? Yes. I don't want to I don't want to hear them anymore. I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it. I've been hearing it my whole life. I want something different. That's why I'm drawn to Moms Demand Action. That's why I'm drawn to people who say literally anything new except for you're awful and our kids deserve better and you don't care. I just. I don't want to hear it any more. I'm sorry. I just don't.  

Beth [00:17:07] I think there are no emotions that are invalid after something like this happens, because rightly or wrongly, most of us in America do have an expectation of safety and an expectation not only of safety, but of our kids in particular being valued and supported in all spaces. And I am glad that we aspire to that. And I think we should. I think we should aspire to that. And so, I absolutely have all of the feelings around the Christmas cards and the videos of representatives, everything can provoke those emotions in me. I'm trying to act from a sense of responsibility. And that has a couple of prongs. It is continuing to work on long term changes. And I think if you are looking for a place to work on those changes, Moms Demand Action is your best call. I also want some short term things and I will take some things that don't involve legislation. So, I will take the metal detectors. I will take the school resource officers. I would love it if you sell guns, if you would just make people wait after they purchase them to have them delivered. I'm looking for a couch, it's going to take at least six weeks. I think it ought to be as inconvenient to get a gun as it is to get a couch. If you have an emergency that requires you to purchase a firearm, then I think we should have questions about that. And I would love it if sellers would just voluntarily say, as a policy for the safety of our customers, we wait six weeks after a purchase to deliver. We don't even need a law. Let's just do it. Let's just decide we care about each other in that way. Let's just decide that if someone is anxious to get a gun, then we need to pause and ask questions about that. I corresponded with my state representative with whom I know I disagree seriously about this matter. Got a response from her that said guns aren't the problem, mental health is the problem. And I said back, you know what, I agree with you that mental health emergencies are at the foundation of most of these tragedies alongside easy, unfettered access to guns in the middle of a mental health emergency. And I don't care to debate it. I just want to know what we're going to do. I am ready to roll up my sleeves and hear your ideas or anyone else's to say, what are we going to do about this? Because I want to do something instead of just yell at each other.  

[00:19:44] She said to me that she thinks gun free zones are a problem. I said, I disagree, but we might always have that disagreement. Fine. What do we want to do? What do we want to do? And I'll tell you another step I took, because I know how action-oriented our audience is, and I know how action-oriented I feel when something like this happens. And I don't think that this makes a dent in keeping a child safer, but I think it is an important step in caring about each other and recognizing what we're dealing with. I emailed our principals and our superintendent and I said, "Thank you for all the ways that you are so proactive, not just about school safety, but also about the interior lives of our students and their families." They are proactive about that stuff. They're proactive about that stuff in the face of a lot of resistance. What kind of indoctrination are you doing when you teach social emotional learning? How much are the counselors in our business and interfering in the face of all of that? They continue to be proactive and I think it matters a lot, and I wanted to tell them so. And I said, "Are there things on your wish list that parents can be advocating for or doing? If there's anything else I am here for it, you let me know." And I heard back from our principal so quickly that I know they are in pain. If you are a leader who's responsible for the safety of a building of people, this is a tremendous psychological burden every time it happens. And our superintendent emphasizes this, any time something dangerous about a school is in the news, it is everyone's shared responsibility. Every single community member plays a part in school safety. Whether you have kids in the system or not, you are part of school safety. And so, I just want to keep showing up to be part of that here and where I can. None of that is satisfying. There is not a satisfying answer when six people are dead senselessly. It is not satisfying to know that this is not the last time we'll talk about this. It's awful. So, I just keep asking myself, what else do I have? I got to have some creative energy around this because I do not want to remain here.  

Sarah [00:21:52] Yeah, that's what I'm allergic to, is the self-satisfaction. I mean, again, did I find the recording of that legislator who was like, "Oh, I homeschool my daughter." I mean, again, I'm an Enneagram One. That makes my head turn around backwards. Well, I protected my kid, even though I'm in a position of power. So, it's a big deal. And, yeah, I agree with every tweet that was like you're out there trying to protect kids from drag shows. What the hell? I get it. Believe me when I say I can tap that fury. But what comes next? Even if we wiped it all out tomorrow, we had some sort of political revolution and every elected official who centers the Second Amendment was stricken from office. And we'd still have all those guns out there. And we still have the Supreme Court that we currently have. I'm just so frustrated and I want to not feel this sense of powerlessness. And weirdly, the people who are clear eyed about the things that are going to be difficult to change make me feel less powerless. I know that sounds weird, but it just does. Just own it. Be honest about it. That makes me feel like, okay, well, at least I know what's in front of me. Let's just be honest about what's in front of us. The Second Amendment is a real pickle, guys. In case you hadn't figured it out. I don't know. Like I said, I know for me, if I could wave a magic wand, I'd strike it. I'd go to a constitutional convention; I'd put it all on the table and I'd get rid of it. But I don't think that's where most of America is. And so, I got to figure out what the path forward is. And it can't just be they're awful and they want kids to die. I can't do that anymore. I cannot do it another damn day.  

Beth [00:23:40] I think another thing that is influencing my interest in just coming up with new ideas-- which I know is going to be annoying to our listeners because many of you have spent a lot of time thinking about this, have at the ready statistics from other countries that have done something real and meaningful about gun violence, and so it just sounds ridiculous to go in any other direction than what we have seen work elsewhere. And I agree with you. In my heart of hearts, I would like there to be no guns. I believe that I am on Earth to be an instrument of peace. I would like there to be no more guns anywhere, ever, for any reason. No other weapons either. That's what I would prefer. But that's not where we are, right? So, another thing that's been working on me here is I spent a lot of time earlier this year with my husband's family because his father died. And when I am with my husband's family, I am aware keenly that there is a handgun in every purse. There just is. That is the culture. They don't love their children less than I love mine. To lean on something that you remind us of a lot, Sarah. And they just have a different story about what those guns mean than I do. And it doesn't matter what the statistics are or what happens in Australia or anything else. A story is the hardest thing to break through. And if you look at how many Americans of all demographics keep buying guns, it seems like I'm in the minority in my story about guns and I just have to deal with that as a citizen of a democracy. My story is that I'm more likely to be hurt by a weapon that I own, and I think I've got some real good evidence to back that up. But more people have the story, and there are enough anecdotes out there of a gun being used to stop a greater harm. And I just can't break that. Breaking someone's story is the hardest thing. It is at the root of all of our political disagreement. And so, while we work on influencing each other around these stories, I believe, one, I must be willing to be influenced in order to have influence over other people. I must be willing to soften. I must be willing to move on some issues if I am to do any good and convince anyone to come in my direction. And, two, I don't want to wait the generations that I think it will take for Americans to have largely a different story about guns. I don't want to wait for that for things to be safer. So, I feel like I have to say, yes, we know what works elsewhere. And today that's not available to me in Kentucky. And I don't have representatives who have that same perspective, and so what can we get? What can we do?  

Sarah [00:26:35] And also, again, we're hearing from all of you and I see it in my own life that we are chipping away at some of those stories.  

Beth [00:26:40] Yes.  

Sarah [00:26:41] So, we have to hold both things at the same time. It's very difficult to hold. People are hard to move. And also, when you move them, you move them an inch at a time. And it's not through telling them they want kids to die. So, that's all I've learned. I wish I had learned a lot more. I've learned that this is a difficult issue made legally even more difficult by our Constitution and our Supreme Court and our laws and a very powerful industry.  

Beth [00:27:08] And I want to say again, the way that we're holding this is something that we have worked to develop capacity to do and is happening because it was in our kids’ schools. I would not be able to have this conversation if this had been my children's school. I wouldn't. I'm not trying to admonish anyone for what they feel around this. I'm just trying to articulate the personal evolution of both my views and my willingness to reach out on this and my hopes for what we can accomplish. But I want to say again, all feelings belong after something like this because it's awful and we cannot make sense of it, and it is going to pull us all in a lot of different directions.  

Sarah [00:27:52] Well, and as a person who has lived through a school shooting, when you listen to survivors and you go into the Facebook groups, the energy is not rage or look at this terrible legislator. I'm just going to tell y'all, that's not it. The energy is devastation, hurt, trauma, sadness. It brings up a lot.  I mean, obviously, because it's becoming a group that gets larger and larger every day, there is not a universal response. But I think the other thing I get frustrated by and react to is that there is a sense of like, well, I'm standing up for the people affected by this. But they're not a monolith. There are people affected by school shootings who are vehement Second Amendment defenders, and we have to be honest about that, too. And that's hard. That's hard to hold.  I keep questioning, like, what do I feel? What do I feel right now? I've been thinking about this. I've been feeling this. I've been grieving this since 1997. And I think I'm just tired. I'm just so tired. I'm tired of them happening. I'm tired of the fighting about it. I'm tired of the seeming intractability about it. I'm just so fucking exhausted about the whole thing. And every time it gets worse, every time the children get younger, I think, I'm just so fucking tired. I had the worst thought. I thought when everybody kept saying this is like the 163rd mass shooting, I thought, how long before they try to up the number of what defines a mass shooting? How long? Because before that's what happens. Because that's really what's happened, right? My high school wouldn't be a blip, you guys. It wouldn't make the national news. What am I supposed to do with that? What am I honestly supposed to do with that information as I send my three beloved children to school every day? I don't know.  I'm tired. I can't do this anymore. I just can't. I can't share the memes. I can't shame with statistics. I can't say enough or louder or angrier. There are too many guns. I just. I can't. I can't do it anymore. I'm so exhausted. I'm just so exhausted. And I'm sorry. I feel like people come here for more strength and solidity and guidance, but I don't have any right now. I'm done. I'm empty.  

Beth [00:30:42] Well, look, I think being your friend and someone who loves you and knowing this about you, also creates that sense of responsibility in me. I have not lived this horror. And so, I got to have more reserves than people who have. And as much as it frightens me some days to put my kids on the bus-- and it does. It does. As much as I feel that fear, that is different than having experienced this firsthand. And so, I just keep trying to say, "Get over yourself, Beth, where you want to just scream into the void and do things. What can you do?" And my list right now is support reasonable restrictions on guns in legislation and support people who will vote for those and not vote for anyone who touts their extremism on guns for office. And then look at what we don't need to pass laws for that can help keep kids safer and engage in every way that my time and talents allow me to, as a community member, working all the angles of how people can feel more connected and beloved and seen and safe in all of their spaces. And so,, there is nothing that I can say that meets your personal experience with this or what you've been through, or the experience of someone who's grieving it in their communities right now. And so, that's just not my goal. I just feel like my goal has to be keep working, get back to work, have a new idea. Keep going.  

Sarah [00:32:27] Outside of Politics, the universe has offered us a gift to distract us from the difficulty of life in America. And that gift is Gwyneth Paltrow who is engaged in some civil litigation. That if I did not know better, I would think certain segments of it were scripted by Saturday Night Live, Beth.  

Beth [00:32:52] I cannot get over the fact that there is a Zeitgeist around a trial for a seven year old skiing accident. It's a seven year old accident. This happened in 2016. Do you know how much life we've all lived since 2016? Honestly, if I were a judge, I'd be like, I’ma declare docket bankruptcy. If you came in here pre-COVID with something that is this insignificant, I'm sorry we got to bounce here.  

Sarah [00:33:21] That's right. We're in a new timeline, and he does have that energy. So, this is a skiing incident where Terry Sanderson, a retired optometrist, he says Gwyneth Paltrow skied into him and caused all these traumatic injuries. He sued her for $3 million. That got dismissed. Now he's suing her for 300,000. She's countersuing him for a dollar because she contests that he's getting to her. Okay. The judge was like, you have eight days friends. I think that's generous. I'd have been like three days. But they're coming to the end today as we're recording. But it's just like from the what is Gwyneth wearing? How much does it cost her? The interactions with Gwyneth Paltrow and this guy's attorney have been so hilarious. The lawyers, like, I bet you're wearing a cute ski outfit. She's right. I bet Gwyneth was wearing a cute ski outfit. It just was all so much. I also think there's like a real energy around skiing right now. It is ridiculous. It is expensive, but lots of people are doing it. Like right now in California, there's so much snow you can ski to like June. But I think there's like this awareness that like skiing is a little bit-- I say this as a person who skis. I love skiing. It's a little bit ridiculous. And so, it's like the ridiculousness of skiing, the ridiculousness of celebrity, the ridiculousness of our legal system. And so, it's just all of it. It's all of it right there.  

Beth [00:34:39] No, it's beyond parody. When I saw that picture, that was like Gwyneth Paltrow covers her face with a $250 notebook. I was like, what are we even doing, America, with ourselves? And this man, I don't know if his story is true. I don't know if the things he's suffering from originated with this incident or not. It does not really matter to me in the scheme of things how this happened. I just think this is a ludicrous use of the court system. Settle it. You've been doing this for seven years. You've already spent $300,000. Come on. 

Sarah [00:35:13] Oh, yeah, for sure. On lawyers. Yeah. And I don't understand this new filming of the celebrity in court. Seems like this is just bad and we should not do it. Let's just not film it. If I was a judge, I'd be like, we're not going to film this. No, sir. No how. 

Beth [00:35:31] Because a part of me, a very cynical part of me thinks, is this happening so this will happen? Are we having this trial so that we have the memes?  

Sarah [00:35:40] So we can TikTok it?  

Beth [00:35:42] Or are we just being entertained here? Is that what's going on?  

Sarah [00:35:46] Yeah 100%. There's no justice on the line here, guys. Beth is an instrument of peace. I'm an instrument of justice. There's no justice on the line here. Okay? This is totally and completely entertainment. And Gwyneth Paltrow seems to understand that, as far as I can tell.  

Beth [00:36:00] I mean, she's playing her part well. She's been preparing for this role her whole life, I guess.  

Sarah [00:36:07] She has. Listen, I must say something controversial. I like Gwyneth Paltrow. I don't care about the jade egg. I don't care about goop. Do I think part of it is arguably a little fraudulent? Maybe. But whatever, there's a part of me that is like men have been scaring people for a generation in this space, let's give Gwyneth a chance.  

Beth [00:36:28] I just think she's kind of wacky and I do think her wardrobe choices are impeccable, almost always, and especially during this trial. That's what I enjoyed reading about the most, is how she's wearing the boots with the dresses so she looks local, and there are no logos on things. So, she's doing the stealth wealth thing too. I think all that's interesting and fine, but so divorced from real life. I can't stand it. And it does bug me that this court system that belongs to all of us is being used for such a farce.  

Sarah [00:37:02] Yeah. Now that we've covered the really important things here. Thank you for joining us. Yeah. Thank you for joining us for being with us through a both incredibly difficult conversation and an incredibly ludicrous conversation because we contain multitudes here. It is impossible to capture every experience in our conversation. That's particularly true when it comes to guns and parenting and what we owe to our children. So, we'll hope you'll stick with us in the weeks and months ahead as we continue to tackle these difficult topics and extend the conversations here on the show. In the meantime, don't forget to head to our show notes and grab tickets to our final events this spring.  

Beth [00:37:50] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:37:56] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:38:02] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh.  
Beth Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  

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