American Nations: New York and LA

TOPICS DISCUSSED

• American Nations: The Coasts in Conversation with Felipe Fuentes (El Norte) and New York Assemblywoman Linda Rosenthal (New Amsterdam)

• Outside Politics: The Story of You with Ian Cron

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EPISODE RESOURCES

American Nations Pantsuit Politics 2022 Midterm Elections Series

• Colin Woodward author of American Nations (Pantsuit Politics, January 19, 2022)

•  Haley Stevens (Yankeedom) (Pantsuit Politics, May 20, 2022)

• Dr. Ashley Ward (Tidewater) (Pantsuit Politics, April 29, 2022)

• Britt Raybould (Far West) (Pantsuit Politics, March 29. 2022)

• Melody Bray (Deep South) (Pantsuit Politics, March 1, 2022)

• Kelly Krout (Greater Appalachia) (Pantsuit Politics, January 28, 2022)

American Nations by Colin Woodard 

American Nations 2022 Midterm Series on Spotify

New York Assemblywoman Linda Rosenthal

• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/LindaBRosenthal.UWS

• Twitter: @lindabrosenthal

• Instagram: @lindabrosenthal_67

• Website: https://nyassembly.gov/mem/Linda-B-Rosenthal

Felipe Fuentes

Ian Cron: Typology

• Ian Cron

• Typology Podcast

• The Story of You (Harper Collins 2021)

TRANSCRIPT

Felipe Fuente [00:00:00] And it was really enlightening to me, the idea that Colin Woodward has put it forward there, that you've got these regions in this country I think certainly rings true. And to your point, Beth, about the history of both coasts, we celebrate that. And for the left coast, at least there's intersection between the north and the coast. The values that we have, the history, I think makes for part of coming back to that healthy competition, a real pursuit to try to figure out how to be as accessible and equitable to the constituencies in the state. 

Sarah [00:00:40] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:41] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:43] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics. Today, we are sharing the latest in our Now What electoral series where we use Colin Woodard's regional framework to understand different parts of the country, particularly as we move closer and closer to the midterm elections. Today we're going to be tackling El Norte and New Amsterdam, a.k.a. Southern California, mainly Los Angeles and New York City. We are doing that through a conversation with Felipe Fuentes and assemblywoman Linda Rosenthal, and we can't wait for you to listen. We're also going to share a conversation we had with the Ian Cron, host of the very popular podcast, Typology. And our outside of politics, because we're talking about the Enneagram, you know it comes up all the time here at Pantsuit Politics and we love this conversation where we talked about the implications for the Enneagram in politics and political conversations.  

Beth [00:01:50] We are bringing you new episodes through our Summer Series and we'll be back in your ear some during our July break, depending on what the House Select Committee investigating the January 6th Capitol attack does. So we're holding all of those plans a little bit loosely. But if you find that you're missing our voices in your lives or your ears, we would just love to ask you again to check out our book, Now What? How to Move Forward When We're Divided (About basically everything). We've received, especially since the Supreme Court's decision in the Dobbs case overturning Roe versus Wade, so many questions on how to have difficult conversations that are more necessary than ever in your families and churches and communities and online. We've done our best to answer those questions through our regularly published podcasts, but we would really love for you to sit down with our book because that's where we think we've done our best work on moving those conversations forward.  

Sarah [00:02:41] Next up, we'll share our conversation with Felipe Fuentes and assemblywoman Linda Rosenthal. When we started this series, we wanted to bring greater understanding and depth for all of us to regions of the country where we might not live. Well, that's a little challenging for big cities like New York City in Los Angeles, cities that many of us have visited, cities that many of us here reported on all the time, cities that occupy such an outside space in our cultural conversations. And we thought it would be interesting to bring representatives from those two cities together to talk about what is missed in the national narrative and our cultural understanding of these two particular regions of the country.  

Beth [00:03:32] So we are joined today by Felipe Fuentes, who served as a member of the Los Angeles City Council for three years and a member of the California State Assembly for five years. He currently works as a lobbyist, and we would be remiss if we did not mention that we've had the pleasure of spending time in person with Filipe and his wife, Lina. They are wonderful people and supporters of Pantsuit Politics, and we're delighted that he's here. Assemblywoman Linda Rosenthal currently represents District 67, which includes parts of Manhattan's Upper West Side and Hell's Kitchen neighborhoods in the New York State Assembly. She was first elected in 2006, and she was wonderful to talk with in this conversation. So with a lot of gratitude, here is our discussion with Felipe Fuentes and Assemblywoman Linda Rosenthal.  

Sarah [00:04:15] Thank you both so much for joining us here at Pantsuit Politics. We are thrilled to have you.  

Linda Rosenthal [00:04:19] Thanks for having us.  

Felipe Fuente [00:04:21] Thanks for inviting us.  

Sarah [00:04:22] So we wanted to have you guys both here because the national narrative is often that the coasts, you get lumped together, defines and dominates so much of our conversation in America. And you see that, I think, manifest in a lot of resentment in the political realm. And it occurred to us that even using coasts shrinks down and characterizes two very distinct parts of the country. And so many years of representing your respective communities L.A., New York, what do people get wrong about your city when they say things like New York and L.A., like they're one place? Linda, I'll send that to you first.  

Linda Rosenthal [00:05:00] I mean, I think something people get wrong about New York is that people are hostile, people are mean. That's it's a big, scary place. And, in fact, we are a collection of small neighborhoods, sometimes as small as like five blocks can define a neighborhood. And people are actually very caring and loving toward each other within those different neighborhoods. And we saw it displayed during Covid, where people would go out of their way, risk their own lives, their own health, to take care of a neighbor, to deliver food, to help someone they never met before. And so I think that's one of the misconceptions about New York in general. And, well, L.A., I'm sure you can come up with your own misconceptions. But, I mean, we think of L.A. as this unfriendly kind of car city where it's a lot of paparazzi, a lot of Hollywood. A lot of types. And the fact there are real people who live there and not everybody is stuck in their car on the freeway. But I think the unfriendliness Monica to New York is dreadfully wrong.  

Felipe Fuente [00:06:20] Yeah, I think the Assemblymembers got it right. I mean, for better or for worse, folks think that Los Angeles is all Hollywood and paparazzi and that we're a little plasticky in sort of our demeanor. But one thing that is fun is that, again, for better or for worse, we're always going to be the second largest, right? That's always the second largest city in the country. And for the time being, that's what folks think. And in some ways there's a healthy competition, I think, between New York and Los Angeles. I mean, they are both magnets. It's where people want to be. People are drawn to cities. And the culture that comes out of both of those constituencies and communities makes for culture. And I think it's one of the things that we rival a little bit, but but we celebrate. And I think that's what makes it so exciting.  

Beth [00:07:14] Well, as Kentuckians, we are familiar with stereotypes, that caricature where you live and what is represented there. So we can relate to at least that piece. You know, you're in places with very different histories that we wanted to talk about for a minute. New York was settled in the 1700s by the Dutch with this huge emphasis on commercialism and multiculturalism. L.A. was settled by Spanish American empires and where the Dutch and their descendants are largely gone from New York. Hispanic culture is still very prevalent in parts of Southern California, where you have less of an emphasis on commercial success and more on hard work. And we just wondered how you see these histories and cultures shaping your cities, especially politically. And I would love to start with you, Filipe. 

Felipe Fuente [00:07:58] Well, listen, I think how you all started the series is really important. And it was really enlightening to me, the idea that Colin Woodward has put it forward there, that you've got these regions in this country, I think certainly rings true. And to your point, Beth, about the history of both coasts. I think that's what in large part because we're very democratic, very blue states, we celebrate that. And for the left coast, at least there's intersection between the north and the coast. The values that we have and the history, I think makes for part of coming back to that healthy competition, a real pursuit to try to figure out how to be as accessible and equitable to the constituencies in the state. And you see that manifesting in the way the elections are run and how cobalt blue we are. And it's envisioned with how it is that the state and local government spends money. They do a good job of taking care of the things that need to be taken care of. But they extend their their help, whether it's increasing access to undocumented-- saying to our neighboring states, come here for health services. If your state for some reason doesn't want to offer them to women, as most recently we're experiencing, we have that history and really that pride. And it really is, I think, part of why it is that both coasts, for that matter, are so welcoming to people and to offering help.  

Sarah [00:09:24] Well, that's what, Linda, to what you said about New York. It strikes me that both New York and L.A. are almost like microcosms of what he's trying to do in his book. Like, really, you could break these cities down into regions by their history and by their populations and by their cultures. And that's what you understand, I think, when you can stop saying New York, L.A. and when you can stop saying New York. I mean, what part of New York, you know? The Upper West Side, Greenwich village, Brooklyn. And the same with L.A. Like, I'll never forget a friend saying, well, there's all these neighborhoods, and you're not stuck in traffic because you figure out a way to live and work in your neighborhood and that they're very distinct neighborhoods. And that emphasis on multiculturalism, I think, and this pluralism to enormous commercial success on both cities allows people the space to both maintain that history, maintain that culture in this bigger sort of ecosystem.  

Linda Rosenthal [00:10:21] I think that what we're experiencing here in New York City and New York State is the widening of the tent that is the Democratic Party and people on the left bringing up issues that have been buried for years, quite literally. I was just at Lincoln Center, which is the beacon of culture here in New York City and in my district. And Lincoln Center was created because a neighborhood called San Juan Hill, which was full of Latinos, was bulldozed to create--  

Sarah [00:11:04] West Side Story.  

Linda Rosenthal [00:11:04] Exactly. Exactly. And now the narrative is we have to unearth the history of the West Side, even though it's only been, I don't know, 50 years or something like that. It was Eisenhower actually who put in the first shovel that we need to recognize where we came from and exposing once again our multicultural history, because right now Manhattan is very white. It used to be a much more integrated kind of borough, but for a variety of reasons it's becoming very wealthy and white. But our history indicates otherwise. And whether it's from the Indian-American tribes that were here in Manhattan and the rest of the city. So I think that's part of what is going on right here in our city, is recognizing that we do have a wonderful history of diversity and being proud of that, celebrating it, but showing the rest of the world that that's what New York City, New York State is.  

Sarah [00:12:25] Do you feel like Los Angeles is doing that dance too, that balance between gentrification and growing wealth and increased wealth? And how do we stay true to our history and our cultures in these neighborhoods? But also, listen, I'm not say anything controversial. Both cities have a value, have a strong emphasis on commercial success and business growth and entrepreneurship. And so how do you balance those two things if we're pluralistic and we find success, commercial and otherwise, in allowing these cultures, but also not crushing them or co-opting them, but allowing them to thrive. How do you feel like L.A. walks that line?  

Felipe Fuente [00:13:04] Yeah, it's difficult because it is both the blessing and the curse of being part of a magnet, being a New York, being a Los Angeles is that everybody wants to be here. And when you want to be here, the folks who have the means and the resources typically have an opportunity more so than folks that maybe were already there and established. And you see that playing out. I mean, it used to be in the good old days that the east side of Los Angeles was heavily Latino, Mexican-American initially. But now you've got the folks who couldn't afford Hollywood Hills move a little bit further and now they're in Eagle Rock and on the east side of Los Angeles. And it's not necessarily the descendants of some of the folks who were there first. Is that a bad thing? It's not a bad thing because it speaks to the success of Los Angeles. But when you start displacing folks or sort of changing the culture too rapidly, there's a tension. And it's beginning to manifest itself in some really interesting ways among Democrats, which to me, I don't know if this is an issue on the East Coast or in New York. But it used to be that if you were a Democrat, you believed in equity and access. Well, folks have really moved further left of that. And now you've got a real big movement of the democratic socialist sort of agenda, which is very different than equity and access. It's about free. And it's about, in some cases as we saw in the Los Angeles City Council election, this primary, an abolitionist through the police department getting elected for the first time to the city council. So that comes out of that frustration of how things are changing and the gentrification. And it happens to all these playing out on the east side of Los Angeles right now. But it's both the blessing and the curse. I mean, without that, we would have stagnation and we wouldn't be that beacon that Los Angeles wants to be.  

Beth [00:14:51] Are you seeing that where you are, Assemblywoman? You spoke about the expansion of the tent? I'm wondering if those comments connect with you.  

Linda Rosenthal [00:14:58] I do, but I think that's more concentrated on New York City, not New York State. And we saw that just yesterday or just on June 28th, the primary, where we had Working Families Party slash DSA candidates running for governor and lieutenant governor and they lost. They lost decisively. And so the statewide, the more mainstream kind of Democrat, won the primary as expected. But in the city, there is certainly a city council that has elected more DSA than ever before. The fight about defund the police, does that mean literally get rid of the police or just make sure their budgets are not over what they should get, but competent and enough to make sure that they can do their job but not be racist for example, etc.. So although the mayor that we have is a moderate. So I think every every group is fighting for who's the top dog, as it were. And that will continue to play out. And I think that happens throughout history. But people want to believe in their government and feel like right now that's teetering. We certainly don't believe in the Supreme Court these days. I think everybody has to make sure that their constituency is satisfied. And as government officials, at least, I feel we need to deliver the services for them. Everyone can feel safe. Everyone can feel listened to, heard and taken care of. And that's very, very, difficult these days, even though it's a simple sounding task.  

Beth [00:17:03] I think it's really helpful to hear you both talk about this as a negotiation and how you are trying to work out how to be fair and just among all these constituencies. Because sitting in Kentucky so often, writers, thinkers, politicians here will co-opt the language coming out of New York and L.A.-- the most extreme of that language, to hold it up as a representative of what all Democrats think. And I remember being in a home in Washington D.C. and talking to a minister who was telling us about the city and his perspective, and he said Washington, D.C. is a city of pornographic wealth and abject poverty. And the more we talked about it, the more I thought we have income inequality in Kentucky, but nothing like this. We have no idea how extreme the constituencies are in both directions because we don't have the commercial success and the history of commercial success of these cities. And so I think it's just really valuable to hear you describe the way you're working through all these constituencies as unique local issues. I haven't heard either of you say anything about national politics beyond the Supreme Court yet and that really jumps out at me.  

Felipe Fuente [00:18:21] I think part of it is that you're talking about two really big states and two really big cities. You best believe that folks are hopping mad in California right now. We've had a number of protests. There are efforts. In fact, our governor just entered into a commitment with Oregon and Washington on reproductive access and rights for women. We're putting on a constitutional amendment in California to make sure that it's a right-- the access in our Constitution, it's enshrined in California. So the good news is that you've got a really active constituency in the state and in Los Angeles. But to your point, Beth, it is messy, this conversation on equity and how it is that it manifests itself in politics. And it's playing out between Democrats and California. But the good news is that I think the net result will be a stronger, more cohesive party eventually. But we're in an interesting time, I think, asDemocrats in California, for sure.  

Linda Rosenthal [00:19:31] I think women in particular obviously in New York are just outraged by the recent decisons. And the fact is, in 1970, New York state allowed legal abortions. So we are ahead of our time and we recently passed five new laws that protect medical providers. I sponsored two of those that protect against extradition. We passed some good gun legislation and we're actually getting called into an extraordinary session in Albany to further protect our residents here in the state when it comes to where someone can get a gun, or use, or carry a gun, since the Supreme Court struck down New York's law about limiting where guns can be carried outside of the home. But I do see the friction and the problem with housing inequality here in New York City is out of control. You have people spending $100 million for an apartment they might live in five nights a year. And downstairs on the street, literally in front of the entrance of that building, are people who are homeless. I know the same thing is true in California, for sure. And we have yet to figure out how to fix that inequity, that we allow people to sleep on the ground and do not provide them with housing. Even though in New York City people who are unsheltered must have a place to stay in every night. But this is something that I think it's certainly a nationwide phenomenon about the the poor and the rich. And what are we doing to take care of our people?  

Sarah [00:21:28] I think that that issue is both the most intensely felt on the ground in these cities and also the most manipulated in the national media for sort of talking points. So what do you think people miss when they're talking about California housing prices or rents in New York, what's getting missed when that rises to the level of the national narrative?  

Felipe Fuente [00:21:55] What is tough about it is not addressing the successes, it's simple economics, right? It's supply and demand. And folks want to be here. And despite the rhetoric that you hear from some of our neighboring states and why there's this exodus from California. The simple truth is that folks in industry, there is success here. And as a result of that, that is constraining the supply of housing. And then right now, these terrible economic times that we find ourselves in with inflation, the Covid hangover that we've got with the supply chain being disrupted, it's not helping very much. And it's not for the sake of policymakers not trying to help and address a solution, a subsidized unit of housing right now, rental housing, is half a million dollars. I mean, think about that for a second, what you could do with that half a million dollars outside of California. But even so, we're behind the curve in our housing production. So it's easy to sort of point to the deficiencies, a little tougher to sort of sing the praises of why it is that the state is so successful and some of the consequences. So there's certainly a lot that can be done from a policy perspective to afford more housing stock and access to it. And policymakers are trying their best. They're in session now debating bills, literally, that I was monitoring just a little bit ago on how to bring down the cost. But it speaks to the success. But we talk about the warts before we talk about the beauty sometimes.  

Linda Rosenthal [00:23:27] But I would say here in New York, real estate is king. Real estate runs the show, runs the town. And to the detriment often of the people who live here and are struggling to live here. So many of our renters are rent burdened, meaning they pay more than 30% of their income on rent. And we have this tax giveaway program called for 421-a was the the section of law. And developers would get tax breaks for 30 years, 40 years if they built a small number of affordable units. And what we found is that we have foregone, as the city, billions of dollars, billions upon billions of dollars and in return, we have not gotten enough affordable housing. And so that program has expired. We as legislature did not allow a new one to be put into the budget the way the governor wanted, because we can't throw away money like that anymore. And I think real estate is starting to learn that, that the legislature, which is more Democrats leaning more left these days, we're not prepared to play that game anymore. We really need development of affordable housing and supportive housing without giving away the store. And that is the challenge that is before us as we walk down the street and see homeless families pitching makeshift tents because there's nowhere for them to live.  

Beth [00:25:12] Well, it is very helpful to hear your perspective on this and to get your expertize and a real gift for you, too, to share your time with us. So thank you so much. And we will be sure to put information on how listeners can stay in touch with both of you in our show notes.  

Felipe Fuente [00:25:26] Thank you for having us. Assemblymember, very nice having you. Nice talking to you.  

Linda Rosenthal [00:25:32] Yeah. Nice meeting you as well.  

Sarah [00:25:48] Thank you so much to them for that great conversation. And now we're going to share another conversation we recently had with Ian Crone. We know so many of you are fans of the Typology podcast. He is also the bestselling author of The Road Back to You. And now has the greatly anticipated follow up, The Story of You, out. And it ask the hard questions, are you living in the wrong story? And he challenges readers to rethink stale stories and outdated messages often learned in childhood, and with the use of the Enneagram unlock the inner power for both spiritual and personal growth, and helped us use the Enneagram to unlock some insights around our political identities and political conversations. We talk about the Enneagram all the time on Pantsuit Politics. But for those uninitiated-- I don't know how they they would be, but in case they are in our audience, what is the Enneagram and why is this ancient typing system so popular right now?  

Ian Crone [00:26:42] Sure. Well, the Enneagram is an ancient personality type system that teaches there are nine basic personality styles in the world, one of which we gravitate toward and adopt in childhood as a way to cope, to feel safe, to navigate the new world of relationships. Each type has a unconscious motivation that powerfully influences how that personality type, predictably and habitually acts, thinks and feels from moment to moment on a daily basis. Why is it so important? Gosh, don't you think everybody wants to know what makes them and other people tick? I think the biggest mystery each of us has to face on a daily basis is ourselves. And which of us doesn't want to have a higher resolution picture of our interior world.  

Beth [00:27:37] Well, in your book, The Story of You and Enneagram Journey to Becoming Your True Self, you talk about how we tend to adopt this story about ourselves in childhood and carry it into adulthood. And the Enneagram gives us the potential to transform that story from one that is harmful to us to one that is helpful to us. That seems relevant to politics, and we would love to hear how you see those stories impacting the way we tend to think. Our political opinions and choices are just very rational calculations based on policy, but perhaps might have other factors going on.  

Ian Crone [00:28:15] Oh, my gosh. There was a study done not very long ago. It was based on another personality typing system called the Big Five. And what they discovered is, is that our political leanings are not entirely based on opinion as much as on temperament and disposition and personality, which is really interesting to me. So, for example, if you're typically-- now, of course, these are large generalizations with tons of exceptions to the rule. But the numbers that tend to be more conscientious types often skew more conservative, and other types that tend to have what we call a high openness to experience, they trend more liberal in their worldview. And so what people don't understand is they think, oh, it's a completely rational decision. The way I make political choices. It's like actually there are unconscious forces that work in the shadows that powerfully shape our political viewpoints. You know, I'm a both/and thinker. I'm a four on the Enneagram. My son is a seven. He's a both/and thinker. My daughter is an eight. She tends to be an either/or thinker, although not as nearly as much as she did as when she was a younger woman. And I'm a four, right? So I tend to trend more liberal. I mean, I just know that part of it is my temperament. It's my disposition. it's in art. I'm very much of both/and thinker as a writer, as a thinker. And I have other people in the family who turn conservative and they really tend to be conscientious types, like ones, twos, sometimes sixes-- not the countable phobic, but the phobic six. You know, again, that's the self-knowledge, right? If you have the self-knowledg you can begin to, in a conversation with somebody who takes a different viewpoint, stand back from your experience, observe what's happening inside. You feel the anger, the frustration coming up and you're like, huh? Is that helpful?  

Sarah [00:30:45] Ture. Feels so good, though.  

Ian Crone [00:30:47] Oh, yeah.  

Beth [00:30:48] I think something else that Enneagram has helped me with politically, is learning not to make a lot of assumptions about other people. You know, when you start to find how rich the Enneagram is as a tool for self understanding and transformation, my instinct, anyway, is to kind of look at all the people around me and be like, oh, you are seven. And that's what's going on here. And the more deeply you explore the Enneagram, the more you realize, I can't really know that. I can't know whether that's a seven or not. I can just observe the behavior and I need to let this person tell me their own story and kind of live in their own story. And I am trying to take that framework into political discussions as well. And to not just say, oh, you are a Democrat or Republican or from Georgia or whatever, but to realize there's a lot that I cannot unravel from the outside of a person.  

Ian Crone [00:31:46] Yes, that's absolutely true because people are wildly complex. We have to remember that people have trauma. People have all kinds of other forces in their life that shape your worldview, that actually craft the narrative that they inhabit. And the vast majority of people, unless they've done some work, are utterly unaware of how these things are affecting the way they see the world. Here's something that most people-- this is a great error. Most people think they know themselves and are in much more control of their lives than they actually are. And until you begin to do the work, you just sort of live in this sort of bubble of delusion about how in charge you are of the way that you act, think and feel.  

Sarah [00:32:44] That's why I find your new book really empowering and helpful because it is difficult to truly comprehend how powerful those childhood narratives are and how deeply embedded they are. And I'm wondering how you started down this road, how you went from a tool that can help us so much in the present to using it to excavate the past.  

Ian Crone [00:33:22] Yeah, and chart a course for the future. Years ago-- for your listeners who probably don't know, I'm in recovery from alcohol and drug addiction. I've been in a 12 step community for decades that I call them my litter mates, people who are trying to figure out how to live in the world with a new spiritual design for living. And when I was very early in sobriety, I mean, like, straight out of treatment, I had this sponsor and he was a 70-year-old Episcopal priest, union analyst, super, super, smart. And I told my story one night at a meeting. I had like half an hour to tell my story, and it was just full of all kinds of Enneagram four stuff. I didn't even know the Enneagram, but I remember it. It was like, oh, all my life I felt different. All my life I felt like I was an Island of Misfit Toys. You know what I mean? And it was just full of this angst, existential drama and which is all very typical Four kind of territory. And at the end of it, I drove him home and he looked at me. At one point he said, "Ian, what if the story you tell yourself about who you are isn't true?" Like, what if the story you tell others about who you are and how you see the world is not true? I was, like, thrown back on my heels. I was like, wait a minute. I just thought the story I understand my life to be was handed to me and it's like I don't have any choices. And he made me realize in that moment, wait a second, all of us occupy a story. And for the most part, the story we come up with as little kids isn't true anymore in adulthood. And unless we rewrite that story, craft a new narrative of our own design, we are stuck in a prison we don't know we're in. And those are very secure prisons, the ones you don't know you're in.  

Beth [00:35:44] I noticed in my own life much of what I learned in therapy that has been so helpful to me. A lot of what I have read that has really influenced the way that I think. I'm thinking of Brené Brown's work, for example, comes out of the recovery community, and I wonder how you see a connection between those tenants that you start to explore in the recovery community and the Enneagram. Because because sometimes I think to myself, is there a way to access this wisdom without going through the suffering first? And is that what the Enneagram's here to help us with? How do we do that?  

Ian Crone [00:36:23] Well, I would say this, suffering is a great motivator. And it's like do the work or die. I mean, that's sort of a message you learn early in recovery. It's like, well, we're going to give you some suggestions as to how you might live your life. And you're free to choose whether to accept those suggestions or not. But if you choose not to, the result is death. so those are pretty good and those are pretty motivating words. And it's true, there is such a wealth of knowledge in the 12 step world for everybody. It's amazing to me, sometimes I'll be out somewhere ago, they'll learn that I'm a recovering addict alcoholic and they'll be like, "Oh, I'll pray for you." Let's say they're a person of faith. And I'll be like, no, I'm going to pray for you. Because if you think you're not an addict, then you're a batty. Everybody is a seething cauldron of addictions. The benefit of being an alcoholic or a drug addict is eventually your addiction goes public, right? And you have no choice but to deal with it. A lot of most people have addictions to whether it's work or to approval or to being right or whatever it might be.  

[00:37:49] And those addictions-- think about that, an addiction to success and money and material goods. People actually applaud those addictions and yet they make people miserable ultimately. And can cause as much damage to your health and to your relationships as a good old drinking or drug problem. Really. I guess the point I'm making is I think what the Enneagram does as it blends with 12 step wisdom, is it helps us to come face to face with the truth about who we are and who we aren't. We have opportunities for growth and transformation that are before us if we if we choose to take advantage of them. One of the things I tell people all the time is if you're looking for flattery, don't play around with the Enneagram. Go take StrengthsFinders. You know what I mean? If you want someone to pat you on the back. I like StrengthsFinders. I'm just saying, it's got a point. But I want to know not only what's great about me, I also want to know what's holding me back from becoming the highest expression of myself.  

Sarah [00:39:00] I wonder, as you look at America and American politics, what you think we're addicted to.  

Ian Crone [00:39:06] Being right. And we're addicted to rage. Rage is powerful. Let's face it. Getting angry, there's a side to it that's just delicious.  

Sarah [00:39:21] Oh, yeah. Feels great. I love it.  

Ian Crone [00:39:22] It feels so good.  

Sarah [00:39:22] Self-righteousness is my favorite emotion.  

Ian Crone [00:39:24] Right. It's like. Mm, yummy. I love to be right. And, of course, we all know that it's like a little bit like a drug, right? It might feel good, but it's killing you. You know, it's corrosive to your relationships and to your own heart. To your own heart. And it doesn't contribute to the well-being of the world. It just doesn't. There was a time, I think, when people didn't confuse their identity with their politics. In other words,for example, my mom was kind of a liberal and my dad was a Bill Buckley conservative. I grew up in New England. And as you can imagine, Bill Buckley conservative versus my mom voted for Hillary Clinton. My dad would definitely not have done that and yet they didn't have any problems in their marriage around politics because those were opinions. They were separate from their identity. It was like, I'm Ian Cron and I happen to have this political world view or opinion. But they weren't... Nowadays, if you disagree with someone's politics, it's as though it feels like an attack on your identity, on your very person. And that makes the stakes super high. I also think that the whole mix of politics and religion, nationalism and religion is super dangerous. We all know what theocracies look like. And sometimes I worry that there are some people in our midst who would like to create another one, which is why you should never introduce religion into politics. They don't mix because religionmdoesn't operate in the sphere of compromise. And when you put politics and religion together, religion always ends up bullied.  

Sarah [00:41:38] Well, I think that's all true and powerful. And I think that's why, individually, acts of self-discovery and self-awareness feel like political acts in today's day and age. I think being able to use the tools available to you and with guidance from people like you and your work, it matters. I really think it matters. The more self-awareness we can bring, the more we can use these tools in our own lives to loosen that grip on anger and righteousness. Like I said, I think it's truly a political act. So thank you. Thank you for your books and your work on the Enneagram. I know they've helped us and a lot of other people. And thanks for coming on our show.  

Ian Crone [00:42:21] Man, what a delight! Thanks for having me.  

Sarah [00:42:33] Thank you to Ian, Felipe, and assemblywoman Rosenthal for joining us. Thank you to all of you for tuning in to Pantsuit Politics week after week. We will be off next week, but then we'll be joining you, dependent again on the schedule of the House Select Committee to investigate the January 6th attacks on the United States Capitol. We hope all of you have the best July available to you. And until we join you again, keep it nuanced y'all.  

Beth [00:43:07] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:43:12] Maggie Patton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:43:18] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:43:22] Martha Bronitsky. Linda Daniel. Ashley Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Hasler. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs.  

[00:43:40] The Kriebs. Lauri LaDow. Lilly McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. 

Beth [00:43:56] Katherine Vollmer. Amy Whited. Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Ashley Thompson. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McHugh. Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.