Diddy and Predator Culture

Plus the Cost of Trump's Trade War

In all the conversations we've had about the #MeToo movement and the crisis for men and boys, I still find myself lost because sexual assault--high-profile and the kind that takes place where you'd least expect it--remains so prevalent, so consequential, so horrific. When people behave like serial predators, it tests all of my values about grace, justice, empathy, and redemption. Today, Sarah and I try to think more about how we process P Diddy's trial while the US Cabinet is filled with people who've been accused of abusing their power.

-Beth

Topics Discussed

• The Cost of the Trade War

• Sean ‘P Diddy’ Combs Trial and the #metoo Cabinet

• Outside of Politics: Thrifting

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Episode Resources

Pantsuit Politics Resources

• Sarah and Beth’s Mother’s Day Gift Guide

• We’re collecting messages and stories to use in our 10th birthday celebrations. Share your birthday message here!

The Cost of the Trade War

• Trade Wars: Port of Los Angeles Says Imports Are Dropping (Bloomberg TV | YouTube)

• Trump says kids may get '2 dolls instead of 30' because of trade war with China (Associated Press)

Sean ‘P Diddy’ Combs Trial and the #metoo Cabinet

• How Sean ‘Diddy’ Combs wielded power and prestige to fuel decades of alleged abuse (NBC News)

• UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK UNITED STATES OF AMERICA SEAN COMBS, a/k/a "Puff Daddy," a/ (US Department of Justice)

• Diddy turns down plea deal ahead of trial to start in days as he faces life in prison if found guilty of sex trafficking (The Sun)

• Sean Combs’s Path From Harlem to Stardom, and Now Federal Court (The New York Times)

• Leaving Neverland (Wikipedia)

• Mass trial shines a light on rape culture in France (NPR)

• Russell Brand Is Granted Bail in U.K. Court Hearing on Rape Charges (The New York Times)

• Gérard Depardieu trial finally gives France its #MeToo moment (The Guardian)

• ‘I’m fighting’: Daughter of mass rape survivor Gisèle Pelicot pursues justice for sexual assault victims (MSNBC)

• Monsters by Claire Dederer

• Trump and several of his Cabinet picks accused of sexual misconduct (AP News)

• More Than Twice as Many Americans Support Than Oppose the #MeToo Movement (Pew Research)

• Online ‘Pedophile Hunters’ Are Growing More Violent — and Going Viral (The New York Times)

• ‘Emergency Press Conference’ and Dave Portnoy follows up (X.com)

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:11] This is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:00:12] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics. This week marks the beginning of the criminal trial of Sean Diddy Combs on charges of sex trafficking, racketeering, conspiracy, and transportation with intent to engage in prostitution. We're going to talk about that trial today. A revolutionary sexual assault trial in France and how we hold all this alongside the reality of a president found civilly liable for sexual assault and administration with several members credibly accused. We're seven years out from the Me Too movement and still trying to figure out what all this means. An obvious warning that this conversation will contain mentions of sexual assaults and physical violence.

Beth [00:00:46] Before we talk about that, we're going to discuss the president's incendiary statements over the weekend and how we're processing them in the context of increasingly dour economic news. And in the spirit of that economic news, we will end, as we always do, by talking about what's on our minds Outside of Politics, which is right now thriftiness, just being a little considerate of those dollars.

Sarah [00:01:06] It's austerity measures, that's what it is. Okay, before we get started, Mother's Day is less than a week away and we have lots of ideas for your mom from a Pantsuit Politics subscription to the treats we'll get us through merch. So click the link in our show notes for a quick and easy link to get her the perfect Mother's Day gift.

Beth [00:01:22] Finally, it's hard to believe, but we're celebrating 10 years and 1000 episodes this summer. As part of those celebrations, we want to share your stories. So if you would like to send us your birthday congratulations and stories of how Pantsuit Politics and other listeners even have impacted your life, we would love to hear those and we might feature your message at our live show in Cincinnati or on one of our celebratory episodes this year. You can find the link to submit your story in the show notes.

Sarah [00:01:50] Next up we're going to talk about Donald Trump as Pope? Beth, this weekend, Donald Trump was very active on Truth Social. And in the legacy, he did a lot of interviews, did a lot of posting.

Beth [00:02:15] So many clips of Kristen Walker in her purple suit walking around with the president.

Sarah [00:02:21] He did a big interview with Meet the Press. He tweeted a picture of himself as Pope. He said he's going to reopen Alcatraz. And I don't know if it's because we are in the process of going back and listening to 10 years of episodes and I just so happened to be at the part of his first term where he was also doing a lot of incendiary things on social media, but I find myself having a dramatically different reaction than the first term. Although, dramatically is not the right word for it because it's not a dramatic reaction. It's more of me just rolling my eyes because it feels more and more obvious that he does this when he wants to deflect from things he'd rather not talk about.

Beth [00:03:11] Last night I got a text from a friend that said, "I just looked at the news for the first time today and we're going to reopen Alcatraz, take Greenland by force and upholding due process is now optional." And I said, "Can you feel all the American greatness?" Because that's just where I am, too. I can't begin to react to everything that gets thrown out. I feel like my reaction is the point of most of it. Like as a liberal podcaster or whatever, I feel like today I'm supposed to do 45 minutes and how offensive that pope AI image is. And I just don't want to do that anymore. I think it's unpersuasive. I think its exhausting. I don't want to tune in to podcasts that are doing 45 minutes on how offensive that photo is.

Sarah [00:03:54] I'm sure you'd say, "You're going to have to find a new partner because I ain't doing it."

Beth [00:03:56] I just can't do it. And so I guess that feels like growth to just say I'm not going to take all of the bait. And then at the same time, there are things that I am genuinely, genuinely worried about, and the sorting is what is so challenging right now.

Sarah [00:04:14] Well, my knee-jerk reaction is not to get mad about whatever he said, but to think, wait, wait, what should I actually be paying attention to? What is he trying to distract from? I'm getting borderline conspiratorial and paranoid. So I'm like, what's he hiding? What is this really about? And I don't think you're going to look very hard in this situation. The economic news is getting very, very bad. You sent us a clip from the head of the Los Angeles port. And it was so wild because I had just had this long conversation with Norma, one of our longtime listeners. I was in New York City visiting and met up with her. And I was talking about the port of Los Angeles. Have you ever seen the port of Los Angles, Beth?

Beth [00:04:56] I have not.

Sarah [00:04:57] When I tell you it is-- there are no words. It is like a Grand Canyon. It is bigger than your eye can take in of shipping containers-- really, you can hear me. It's not like I had this conversation with Norma. It's not I didn't practice trying to describe it and I still have gotten no closer because it is just massive. And so a person who runs this port has a very important perspective. And he was basically like we're down 30%. You're going to have about a week before it starts showing up in really, really concrete ways in people's lives. And that's like in a week. The reports about what could be happening by Christmas or by back to school are even scarier. And I think everybody is feeling that in a way that it does feel different. It does feel like we've all had some growth from the first term, because he got by for so long on the business acumen, right? On the CEO. And now it just feels like, yeah, but you're not doing the one thing everybody likes you to do. And you're not even really doing the second thing everybody likes you to do, which is deport people because you're being real incendiary about that too. And it feels different to me. It feels like people are not falling for it. It feels like people are mad about the right things. And it feels like more people are mad at those things than it times past.

Beth [00:06:29] It's just hard to be a person who is unaffected by something that's happened since January. I was thinking about the 50 years that have passed since late January and early February when part of what the president wanted to do was take over the Panama Canal again.

Sarah [00:06:47] I remember that.

Beth [00:06:48] And his reasons for wanting to do that stemmed from what I thought was his understanding of how many goods are shipped through the canal to the Port of Los Angeles and how the country that controls the Panama Canal and their shipping fees has huge global commerce power. That's what's so weird to me. Sometimes it seems like he kind of knows what he's talking about. And then sometimes you think he has no sense of anything. When he was doing his bit on the dolls with Kristen Welker on Meet the Price-- I don't know if you saw this. So if you didn't see it, the president was asked about a statement that he made in a cabinet meeting where he said that maybe this Christmas kids will have two dolls instead of 30 dolls. And those two dolls might cost a few bucks more than they used to. And she said to him in this interview.

Kristen Welker [00:07:47] You're saying that your tariffs will cause some prices to go up.

Donald Trump [00:07:48] No, I think tariffs are going to be great for us because it's going to make us rich.

Kristen Welker [00:07:52] But you said some dolls are going to cost more. Isn't that an acknowledgement that some prices will go up?

Donald Trump [00:07:56] I don't think a beautiful baby girl that's 11 years old needs to have 30 dolls. I think they can have three dolls or four dolls because what we were doing with China was just unbelievable. We had a trade deficit of hundreds of billions of dollars with China.

Kristen Welker [00:08:15] When you say they could have three dolls instead of 30 dolls, are you saying Americans could see empty stall shelves?

Donald Trump [00:08:22] No, I'm not saying that. I'm just saying they don't need to have 30 dolls; they can have three. They don't need to have 250 pencils; they could have five.

Beth [00:08:30] So I'm listening to this and I'm thinking first, who is going to be very, very rich because of these policies? That's a question that I have. You're dissembling most facets of the government that employ people and that distribute aid to them. Who is going to be very rich because of these policies? And then secondly, what is it? Is America a store that everybody wants to do business in and we love commerce and we want to control the Panama Canal because we want to be the leader in global shipping, et cetera? Or is it we're a doll too consumerist and we don't need 30 dolls, we need two? What is the aim here? Where are we going?

Sarah [00:09:09] Beth, I don't know if you've picked up on this over the last 10 years, but consistency in messaging across issues, not always top priority with Donald J. Trump. Because it's not even with that one issue. If it's bad economic numbers, it's Biden's fault. If it's halfway decent-- I wouldn't even be bragging about those jobs reports because they don't include federal employees. But if it is halfway decent economic news then it's all me. And he will do it inside four and a half minutes and not blink. Doesn't even care.

Beth [00:09:44] And that's the Pope thing, too. The consistent message, if there is one, is just Donald Trump's amazing and shut up. You suck.

Sarah [00:09:51] Yes, yes, yes.

Beth [00:09:52] Because the Pope picture is an epic troll, but also a celebration of an amazing leader who you're damn right would be an excellent Pope, but you can't take a joke. It's all at the same time.

Sarah [00:10:04] And I think I just feel better at seeing that clearly and navigating it. When I go back and listen to those episodes, I get so upset. I'm crying half the time. I don't have tears now, if you noticed. Like the feeling of breaking and the grief surrounding that, I've worked through most of that. You know what I mean? I'm real comfortable with that. We're on the other side and we're in a new place. And instead of being shocked and horrified, being clear-eyed about, well, this is what we're dealing with. We need to speak clearly about what we are dealing with and right now we're dealing with a president that is running our economy off a cliff while tweeting pictures of himself dressed like the pope.

Beth [00:10:57] It's really something.

Sarah [00:10:58] It is really something. I wish we were done talking about the norm busting of this president and his administration. But we are going to talk about that in the broader context of the trial of Sean Diddy Combs and some of the bigger changes around sex and politics and power and violence towards women happening in other countries as well. Beth, we're recording this on Monday, May 5th and jury selection has begun in the trial of Sean Diddy Combs. He is facing a federal trial in New York on multiple serious charges. This is following his arrest in September, 2024. He's been in detention since then with his bail being denied multiple times. And over the past several months, more and more information has been reported both anonymously and from name sources about really the horror that he perpetuated on hundreds of people over the course of his career.

Beth [00:12:15] I was taking a look at the indictment this morning. It interested me to see how often the prosecution referred to him as the defendant, Sean Combs, AKA Puff Daddy, AKA P Diddy, AKA Diddy, AKA Love. They did that numerous times. And I thought it was interesting too, because a lot of what the government wants to prove here is that he is an entity and that he so commingled his personal life and his relationships with his business ventures that he actually formed a criminal enterprise using all this staff to transport male commercial sex workers across state lines, to manipulate women who felt their careers depended on him into taking lots of drugs and participating in sex acts with those men. It really is a small thing, I guess, but I think it lends credibility to the government's vision that he is an entity who has rebranded over and over again and it is the sum total of his business and his money and his power that enabled him to commit these heinous acts that affected so many people.

Sarah [00:13:33] Yeah, as you look back on his career, which you and I had a front row seat to, based on our ages, you see someone who from the beginning, from a very young age-- you don't get a record label at like, what was he, 23, 27? Really young. You don't get a records label that young without having some real skill at manipulating and perpetuating people's perception of you to get what you want. And that's really what he's been good at from the very beginning, using what was in front of him, however much or little, to perpetuate a certain idea of himself. And what I thought was so interesting when looking at these charges, I was listening to a reporter talk about one of the biggest impacts of the Me Too movement and some of these really, really impactful trials like Harvey Weinstein. Is that we've culturally and legally expanded our understanding of sex trafficking in that it doesn't have to be money changing hands.

[00:14:49] If you are threatening something of value, be it your career, be it access, be it resources, then we understand that to be sex trafficking, right? That you're using everything available to you. It doesn't to be cash changing hands. And you really see that with him. And it's like every other case like this, I feel like, where you see that what made them successful also made them a predator. Like with Harvey Weinstein, that bombastic, extraordinary temper and the threats and the grandiose visions of what you could accomplish or what people owed you we're absolutely a piece of the success of his film studio. And the same with Diddy. Like you're seeing the thing that made people respond to you, culturally, societally, within the industry are the same tools you use to prey on people.

Beth [00:15:59] I was reading this really well done piece in the New York Times about his journey throughout his life. And the author of that piece described him as constantly performing his fame and success. And when you read about the parties in San Tropez where everyone shows up wearing all white, there is just such an echo of like the Roman emperor twins depicted in the second Gladiator movie. People who just have so much that it almost feels like your job to luxuriate in that and push the bounds of it constantly further and further and further. It'd be really interesting 30 years from now to read a well-done biography of Sean Combs and try to put all of these pieces together. It still feels like so contemporary to my life experience, as you said, that I can't quite see where everything comes from, but I know that that is going to be put together eventually. This performance of success intertwined with the acts that ultimately have landed him in federal court.

Sarah [00:17:05] Well, and you don't read very many reports about him that don't compare him to Trump in that same way. Like, they were performing success, particularly through the lens of New York City. Performing this sort of kings of the town with lots of money and lots of women, because women are always part and parcel of that currency of that fame, of that level of success. And particularly when you and I were growing up, it was another way to exhibit success, to exhibit power, to exhibit strength. And that's not new to the 21st century, but I think what I'm realizing as I watch this trial, and I think about the last seven years of Me Too, is that it felt like when this movement started, that it was universal. And do a certain extent I think it was. I think there was a moment where everybody or most everybody felt like this has been buried. This has been behavior that everyone knew about and accepted from the lowest rungs of the economic ladder all the way to the very top. It felt like, well, we've exposed it and we're done.

[00:18:26] And I think what I've seen over these last seven years, it's like every little microcosm, every culture, every industry has to have their own moment. I think in the beginning it was so much of the movie industry as driven by the realization around Harvey Weinstein. And it felt very sort of legacy media, right? Like you got the big dogs that everybody sort of-- it was an open secret. You went after Matt Lauer, and you got Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby. And especially those who are on the downward slope, because that also feels like what happens. It feels like it's only when their own position starts to weaken that then people feel safe saying the thing out loud that everybody knows, right? And so you just have these rounds-- and not just like the music industry, which has a long history of exploitation. It's really built on exploitation. Same for any sort of entertainment industry to a certain extent. But then you see how you have like the church has its Church Too movement. And you see all these layers and how it's like every microculture, every industry, every piece of society has to have their own realization, their own moment, their own real moment of account.

Beth [00:19:54] And it has to be persistently vigilant about it for years. It's been a long time since we started hearing stories about abuse within the church. And this week, as Cardinals are gathering to elect a new pope, there are survivor’s groups saying, please consider the priority that protecting victims and making amends for past abuses will have to the new pope. I mean, it takes a long time. And I think it's never really done because we just have not figured out why this happens in a meaningful way that we can act on. And maybe there's not one why. But that's what I always come back to, though, when I read stories about this kind of behavior. How do we, in addition to having conversations about consent, get to the fundamental wiring in ourselves that makes so many people abuse their power through violence and sex?

Sarah [00:20:55] Yeah. I think that this is a soapbox of mine for a long time. I think we, in many ways, rightfully villainize people who perpetuate horrific sexual abuses on all types of populations, particularly when it comes to any sort of child sexual abuse. But when we do that, we foreclose the ability to ask questions because the answer is they're evil. And so many of the things you read about are evil. We're going to move to France in a minute. We're going to talk about Dominique Pelicot. It's evil what he did to his wife. But if we don't ask questions, if we let it end there and say, you're evil, we don't need to know anything else, then I do really think we foreclose the ability to prevent. You cannot prevent something you don't understand. You cannot prevent behavior that you've just decided people adopt because why.

Beth [00:22:07] And I think we incentivize cover-up. Because if the condemnation is so all-encompassing, then everyone who has an inkling that something like this is happening is weighing that and ultimately doing this individual cost-benefit analysis of blowing the whistle on this behavior, protecting victims, exposing what's going on. I think if we were able to have a more calibrated and robust approach to this that included understanding that something is wrong when this happens and we want to figure that out and treat it, we might have less incentive to just cover it up. That's the worst thing about Me Too. It's like, wow, there are these many predators? Yeah, but exponentially more protectors of predators. Exponentially more people who have turned their eyes away from systemic years and decades-long exploitation. Like that's the harder thing to contend with almost than even if you decide that these are just evil people. Well, gosh, an awful lot of people aided and abetted that evil.

Sarah [00:23:20] Well, that's what I always remember thinking when I was watching Leaving Neverland, the Michael Jackson documentary. There's a moment where they talk about the parents of the children that he abused when they first began having a relationship as a family with Michael Jackson. Their hotel rooms were like next to their children. And then over time they would get further and further away. And I thought somebody was booking those hotel rooms and it wasn't Michael Jackson and this is certainly true of Diddy. There was massive amounts of people involved in this enterprise. And it's so hard because there's like two different Me Too's to me. There's all the little baby Me Too universes for every industry, but there's also just a giant one about fame. And there's everybody else, right? I remember thinking this with Leaving Neverland. He had groomed every child in his presence before he ever met them because Michael Jackson was so famous and beloved.

[00:24:44] And so that fame was this mode of exploitation before the predator even enters the scene. Definitely true for Diddy and R. Kelly and Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby, like the whole entire roundup. And that is very difficult. We're going to move to France, but France is having its own sort of Diddy-like moment because Gerard Depardieu, considered one of the greatest living French actors of all time, is on trial for multiple sexual assaults and they're going to get that verdict next week. And the way they have grappled with this, still famous people coming to his defense saying this is just a lynching. It's definitely like was-- I was reading an article and they called him Francis Monster. Like it was another open secret and because he was so famous and he's this like central foundation of French cinema and the French movie industry. It's not like people were grooming. It's like everybody had a stake in it. If he went down, everybody would be affected. And maybe that is the role fame plays in all this. Is that once you love someone, and you love their work, then what does it say about you if they do something horrific?

Beth [00:26:08] And then in that fame circuit, you also have people like Russell Brand, who has been charged in the UK with sexual assault and who, I don't know, months ago, a year ago maybe, professed online this conversion to Christianity. There was a viral photograph of him like baptizing people and situations like that where you can tell that a person is entrenching in something to try to build some protection or some kind of foothold around themselves and has all the resources to do that. It just makes it a very different universe than the average person who's experiencing this within their own industry or their own organization. You can't outrun it. In some of the court filings in the Diddy case, his lawyers admit that when the video of him beating a woman in the hallway of a hotel surfaced, that the public opinion against him shifted. And that was significant enough to them to say in a filing. It just adds a layer that it's difficult to find a parallel to in average everyday life.

Sarah [00:27:27] Well, sometimes the parallel is in the paradox too, because I think there is definitely a connection to the Pelicot case in France, where Giselle Pelicot, her husband was found guilty of drugging and allowing 50 plus men to come in and sexually assault her while she was unconscious. And I was struck throughout the trial, not only by her incredible bravery, I personally believe she should win the Nobel Peace Prize for what she has done. Waving her right to anonymity and insisting on this public trial. Because so many of these 50 men would come in and say, I'm not a rapist. He told me she liked it. Like this was what she was into. It was being unconscious. And they were often showing the videos of these assaults to the men themselves. Like this video evidence level of when you just finally have to confront the reality in front of yourself, because it doesn't matter if you're famous or if you're just this average French man that there is this, "I would never" that video evidence forces you to confront. And especially with somebody like Diddy, when people's mind is already filled so full with images of you being successful, dancing, being this version of fame, I think same for Gerard Depardieu, it's like you have to have this-- whether the video is conflicting your own ideas of yourself or the famous version of yourself, like it has to get to a point where people just cannot ignore it.

Beth [00:29:22] I had a conversation a couple of years ago on background with a woman who is an advocate for women truck drivers. And she was telling me about how dangerous it is for women truck drivers, especially when they first start with a company, because they are often paired with male drivers for training. And you're out in long stretches of America with little contact with the outside world. Sometimes your cell service isn't even working and you're just stuck in a truck for days on end. And the vulnerability that that creates, I had a hard time wrapping my mind around as she was describing it to me. And yet it's been really hard to tell that story. And there's been a lot of litigation around that story because you don't have that sort of can't deny it, must face it evidence often. There are some, and they're working on making sure that there are mechanisms to protect people, not just women, but people who drive trucks in a lot of dimensions. But that's so often what it takes is just something that you must stare down because as much as we like to say people who do this are evil, it's very hard for us to see that in folks who we think we know and love.

Sarah [00:30:49] Well, don't you think that it's like that's the coverup? And I don't just mean like personally, I mean, culturally. Because we, again, rightfully condemn this behavior, any accountability becomes so difficult because it's like you're throwing them off a cliff, right? I definitely think that's what happens in people's personal lives. If it's someone you love, then you make it impossibly hard for people to report their own family members, to acknowledge the abuse that's happening within their own family’s members because it's so horrifying. And it's really difficult to say like how do we not balance? Do we want to say the event is less horrifying so people turn each other in? I don't think so. Like you can't. That's not the answer either. And you want the standard of evidence to be high. That's definitely how Trump and half his cabinet is skating through, right? They don't have a video. And until you do-- although that's not even true. We had freaking access Hollywood.

Beth [00:32:12] But he could spin that video, that was a spinnable moment.

Sarah [00:32:14] That was a spinnable moment. But you have Pete Hegseth accused of sexually assaulting someone. You have Elon Musk accused of sexual misconduct by a flight attendant. Obviously, Matt Gaetz. That's why he ended up not being nominated generally. RFK and his nanny from years ago. You want it to be more than a rumor, but it shouldn't require a videotape. It's hard. And look, the reality is people are coming back from this. We're saying we throw people away, but we really don't. Mark Halperin has clawed his way back. Andrew Cuomo was going to run for mayor of New York City.

Beth [00:32:54] Brett Kavanaugh as a Supreme Court.

Sarah [00:32:54] Brett Kavanaugh as a Supreme Court justice. All these people are on the cabinet. They're there. I want to wrap it up in a neat bow and be like, this is what we've learned so far and this is the steps forward, but I don't know. I don't know the answer to that.

Beth [00:33:14] I don't know either. When I had the conversation with the woman about incidents with truck drivers, every part of me believed everything she was saying. I have no doubt that what she told me is true. And I went on to read how there is litigation about this. And I had that same terrible sense. How do we balance what must be proven beyond reasonable doubt in order to impose criminal accountability, with what is obviously true to impose some kind of protective measures, both for the person who did the thing and for the people to whom that person has done it and will do it? How do we not ostracize someone from community because I believe that never fixes a problem, but understand that some people are really dangerous to others? This whole area I think we haven't solved because it is one of the hardest things. And I think the other piece of ignoring it is if you know someone who's doing this kind of act and you love them, then it can become very like what does this make me? What does this mean about me? And so I think we almost have like a lot of psychological protective instincts that kick in. It's not just that you want to aid and abet evil. It's that your own brain starts to build some barriers to try to help you out. It's awful and so hard. And I badly want someone to just crack the code here and tell us what we need to do.

Sarah [00:34:53] Well, I think that, again, that happens when you're just a fan who doesn't actually know the person. That happens when you are just a huge fan. I was telling someone this weekend I would pay any price to a film festival if it got rights to release the prince documentary. Because Prince was also horrifically abusive to women and not a particularly good person. But this filmmaker has done such a good job in the past of unpacking that. And I think Kamau Bell tried to do that with the Cosby documentary to acknowledge this is what this person has given to American culture or a certain community or to all of us as fans. And how do we hold that? Obviously, Claire Dederer's Monsters is like absolutely one of my favorite books because I think she grapples with this really, really well. And I think that really what she gets at through the lens of fandom, I think is true. I think what she get that through the lens of fandom is true at all levels of relationship.

[00:36:08] This monstrous behavior requires us to confront not only the monstrousness inside ourselves, but also our own vulnerability to the monstrousness of others. And as long as there are human beings, I'm not sure we're going to find a fix for that. I'm sure we get to a place where human beings can't do monstrous things to each other. I wish we could. I think we've gotten better. I think we've made enormous, enormous progress. But I think there is this hard, heartbreaking reality, especially as a woman, to just face that people are capable of this. They're capable of towards me. They're able of this towards my children. And finding accountability is both hard, and also would it ever be enough? Has the Catholic Church fixed it? Are we all comfortable with the accountability? If P Diddy goes to jail for 50 years, for the rest of his life, it won't be enough to "fix" this harm to people. I think that is what we're trying to get at and also what we know will never be enough.

Beth [00:37:45] Well, and I think that that gets to your point about learning. The Me Too movement has asked the world to do a lot of learning through the lens of victim’s experiences which I think has helped move the needle in a positive direction and has also come at a ton of expense to those victims. Not every woman should have to do what the woman in France has done. And not every woman has the reserves for that. Not every victim can tell their story this way and nor should they have to. So we've tried to do a lot of learning through the victim's lens. We have tried to learning through the lens of people who have been wrongly accused of being perpetrators or people who we think the punishment hasn't met the crime. But diving into the deep, with people like Diddy, people who have been accused of that caliber crime, is limited to such a small field of experts. And I wonder how that learning can be shared more broadly, not through criminal minds and law and order SVU, but in an academic, accessible, meaningful way.

Sarah [00:39:07] I don't think it's going to come from this administration.

Beth [00:39:11] Well, I think you're right about that.

Sarah [00:39:13] I know people are reaching the end of academic answers. That's something we've talked a lot about since this administration has come to power, that that's not what people want. They don't want academic answers. There was this piece in the New York Times that we never got a chance to talk about, about 'pedo hunters'. People who build social media followings by basically being their own personal catch a criminal and trapping people into trying to prey on children or who they believe to be as children, beating them up, exposing them publicly, forcing people to end their own lives. And I I was completely horrified by the entire report, much less the trend itself, because I don't think we get to humanizing the victims through dehumanizing the perpetrators. There is a little bit of me that I try not to be zero sum, but when it comes to humanity, I do feel a little if not zero sum clear on like the more humanity, the more humanity, the more humanity, which is coming from the same people who are perpetuating crimes. Like Donald Trump and his ilk in this cabinet perpetuate the idea that they're the actually ones who care about crime and they're the strong ones and they are the ones who are going to punish the people that are actually doing harm while flouting the reality that they get away from any accountability when they themselves do harm. So I don't want to hear it from them at all. But at the same time, I do think there's this weird sense that we'll punish our way out of this that I don't think is true.

Beth [00:41:20] A hundred percent. That's what I thought about when you were sharing those articles about the pedo hunters. Vigilantism indicates always I think a policy failure. And I think the justice system is really zero sum and that is unsatisfying in so many arenas, and particularly this one where so many people have personal experience with sexual abuse and assault. It is not surprising to me that it comes up in all of these weird politically adjacent ways. I'm just looking for us to figure out where there can be an ounce of redemption and forgiveness in a men's making. I was kind of encouraged weirdly by something that happened with the Barstool Sports Guy. This weekend, Dave Portnoy was posting on X. He would caption them 'emergency press conference' but it would just be him direct to camera. I thought, what a world. But I was impressed with him because he was dealing with this issue of anti-Semitism that happened in one of his bars. Somebody ordered a sign that said F the Jews. And there were pictures of his employees carrying that sign around in his bar. And he was livid. And he went direct to camera to say how angry he was and that he had fired the employees who were involved.

[00:42:52] And then, as happens on the internet, this gets passed around, it gets bigger and bigger and bigger and he comes back and says, okay, I have figured out who ordered this and I have talked to a lot of people and I am paying for these kids to go to Auschwitz and tour the concentration camps and try to learn something. and he said, I see anti-Semitism everywhere. It's the worst I've ever seen it. And maybe this is a chance for a teachable moment. He said, if they had said no, if they turned me down, I would be here online trying to give them the internet justice too. I forget exactly how he phrased it. Like I would ruin them here publicly. But because they are willing to take this trip that I am going to pay for and learn something, I'm hoping that that will make the world a little better. Now, I am sure there are a million pieces of this story that I do not know and understand because I am not frequently in the Dave Portnoy sphere, but the bits that I caught felt encouraging to me that he just thought to himself, like, okay, instead of just going as hard as possible at punishment, how can I try to prevent this from happening again in the future? How can I put something good in the river? Like we talk about all the time. And I admire that approach, and I wish we could find that corollary in lots of spaces and through institutions, not just through individuals.

Sarah [00:44:34] Well, and I think we decided at the beginning of Me Too, like that solution was going to be consent. We're just going to focus on consent, and we're going to double down on consent education and conversations about consent. And I don't, not surprisingly, think that has gone exactly as we expected it to go. Because does anybody think that Diddy ended up here because he doesn't understand consent? This is not about consent, this is about violence and power. This is about perpetuating your own messed up desires at the expense of other people. I think the more insightful moment culturally into Diddy was probably that monolog in White Lotus. I think there is something here that's deep and goes beyond consent between adults in sexual situations. Like there's a predatory behavior that is a thread through all of this that any assertion of I'm not giving consent is not going to stop. If you're RFK and it's your nanny, or if it's Pelicot in France filming 50 plus men-- he got caught because he was filming up women's skirts in dressing rooms. That's how they caught him. And same with Diddy. I do think that we kind of got stuck because I think there was a lot of positive forward momentum around consent, especially young people and talking about desire and how that-- and that's all well and good, but it doesn't have a lot in my mind to do with the predatory violence that we see in so many of these cases.

Beth [00:46:32] Yeah. And I think for rule followers, people who were never going to abuse their power anyway probably, consent has become kind of a scary proposition and brought a legalistic quality to relationships that's really difficult. I think the trouble with consent as a model, as important as it is, I'm not arguing against consent, obviously, but I think it just sounds really formulaic in an area of human relations that is based on so many imperceptible, almost, exchanges between people, things that we don't really have language for, ideas that we really don't have words for. And I think that it also has all the problems that intent has in the criminal context. Diddy is using consent as a shield. These were my girlfriends. They agreed to this. They went places with me. They stayed in relationships with me. And who knows to what extent that's true to him and what kind of machinations he's had to do for himself to make that true. And isn't there still some kind of objective societal standard that we have to look to? Again, that's why this is also complex. There are no easy answers and it's all situational and it all happening in layers of ourselves that I think we don't always have access to.

Sarah [00:47:59] Well, and I think when I say we've made so much progress, if you go back and you can see this through the lens of antisemitism, absolutely. But if you back and look at moments in American history, or moments in really global history when there was just massive amounts of cruelty. Listen, I am reading the Cromwell series from Hilary Mantel. Like, you want to talk about cruelty to people, how people were punished and tortured during the rule of King Henry VIII, or the French Revolution and that level of violence and even in Russia towards serfs, you were less than, that's why we could do treat you that way. That's really always the center point of any human interaction where there's cruelty and violence, which is you're less than me and I get to do with you what I want. And I think that there is absolutely a piece of that is indelibly linked with patriarchy. And that particularly at certain levels of success and definitely in certain industries, women are less than. I think that's the fame.

[00:49:18] That's why fame is such an accelerant because what does fame tell people? It tells you that this person is better. That's what they're famous and you're lesser and that's why you're not. And so especially you cross pollinate those two, that women are lesser and I'm famous so I'm more, then you have a really, really dangerous situation where there is enormous capacity. That's why you see it in churches. That's what you see across ages. That's where you see with Matt Gaetz and the women were so young. Like you add any other component of something about me makes me more and you less, then you're going to have the capacity for cruelty and exploitation. And I guess that's why I'm so laser focused on the humanization and the connection of humanity to this because I don't think we'll ever reach a utopia where we all treat each other as equally deserving. But I do think there's a lot more progress to be made and to keep our eyes on the center point of all this, be it this Liberty trial or a moment in another country is really important. Do you know how much it is to add a child to car insurance?

Beth [00:50:46] It's a lot. I'm hearing from my husband as Kentucky has moved that number back to 15.

Sarah [00:50:54] It's three times as much.

Beth [00:50:55] We were starting to think about it. It's so expensive.

Sarah [00:50:57] We called the lady and she said, "It's going to be three times as much as you're paying now." And I said, "Excuse me?" So it's like not even just the global or domestic economic news that I know we're all swimming in, but it's just my phase of life [inaudible] that we're in austerity measures over here at the Holland household. It's getting real.

Beth [00:51:24] Whenever Chad and I are saving for a big purchase, he'll say like, I want you to go in with me deep. And it's been a while since we've done that, but I think I have specifically this year just been like so tired of processing stuff that I'm just thinking differently about my purchases and what I buy and how I buy it, and then what I have and how I use it. I try to go shopping in my house first, is what I'm trying to say.

Sarah [00:51:54] Well, I read the Stoics and it was a good reminder that for most of human history, thrift has been a virtue for a reason. And of course, it's nice to be thinking about this along with everybody else because I think there is like a very cultural moment, there is a lot of viral no buying 25 things on social media. But I do think some of this is like inexplicably tied up with social media. I think people's exhaustion with social media-- that's how this started for me. Before even I was worried personally or worried about our economy way back in the mid-2024, I just was grossed out by the consumerism, particularly on Instagram. And not even that there was so much stuff, it was all the same stuff. Even now I'm dipping my toes back in there to make sure I don't miss anything fun when I'm traveling this summer. I want to see sort of like the traveling. Although, traveling is like a whole other level of--.

[00:53:02] I wrote a really great piece in Substack about how many people go into debt to travel because there's just this idea of how much people should be traveling, especially in their 20s. Please don't go into that to travel. That's a terrible idea. But dipping my toe back into it, there's all this like, “Pack this with me,” and everyone's packing the same stupid Amazon dress. So I think that's part of it, too. I wonder if there's just an exhaustion with how much we're told to buy and how much we have and how much we don't use. Even before we got to, holy crap, what's going to happen with the economy? Holy crap, I got laid off, or I'm afraid of getting laid off. That's led everybody back to thriftiness.

Beth [00:53:42] I also think there's a human element in buying something that's been used before that's kind of great. So my New Year's resolution, one of them this year, is to learn to play golf with Chad. I'm not trying to be good at golf. I'm just trying to be capable of going out and playing nine with him on a Friday morning, and to do that for the rest of our lives because he loves golf so much and I love being outside in the sun and with him. And those things seem like they should be able to get together. So we started looking for golf clubs. We went to a couple of used sports places. And while we were doing that, he's checking Facebook marketplace and he finds a set of clubs that look great and we go pick them up. And the woman who sold them to us was so great. She was so excited. She was like I think a lots more women need to play golf. I'm so excited that you're going to try to learn. She was just finishing med school and is getting ready to move for a residency. So in 10 minutes, we got an interaction with someone. We didn't just get a purchase; we got this sense of the person who had them before and her passion about the game and some pointers for me from her. And it was really awesome. And it so different than just getting something in the mail in a big box that I unpacked.

Sarah [00:55:05] I think that is sweet and charming. My experience with thriftiness is a little different, especially buying used. I just feel like I'm winning. I feel like I'm getting something over on somebody. You know what I mean? Like when I save money or I buy something great. Listen, I really like thrifting clothes. I really liked designer consignment. I particularly like to buy things when I'm traveling because I feel two birds with one stone. I get to wear my souvenir. That's great. But even beyond just buying things and consignment-- we won't even get me started on estate sales because we'll be here for like 30 minutes because, lord, I love an estate sale. But there's a lot going on for me. I feel like I'm saving money, so I feel I've like scammed the robber barons, and I feel like I've got a point for that. I feel like it's unique that everybody's not going to have the same exact thing or a million versions of it. That's really important to me. And I feel often I get better quality stuff because you can make your money go further when you're buying used or consignment. But I've realized for so long, especially with the stress of diabetes, I was just using money to remove any sort of tension. Like, I was like having so many things delivered. I was having air filters delivered when I could get the same air filters at Lowe's in a pack of three for like a third of the price. Why was I doing that? And so every time I like find another little space like that where I was like, oh, you weren't paying attention and now you've saved all this money, I just feel so smart.

Beth [00:56:46] I think often I feel when I have ordered something, like I can check an item off my to-do list, like I achieved a thing. And that is what I'm really trying to work on myself about. Like what is my real purpose here? And that's going to be a problem with golf. Look, golf has a lot of stuff attached to it. And I found myself last night looking at golf clothes, and I thought, "Beth, you don't need golf clothes. You're going to go to the driving range for a while with Chad. Like wear a sweatshirt and call it good." But that instinct is there. I'm doing something, and so I need the things that go with the doing. And that makes me feel very productive. And I want to walk back from that as much as I can.

Sarah [00:57:28] Yeah, that's why I really try to channel the sense of productivity and saving money. Like, not only did I not spend that money, but I saved that money. That feels like a double win even though my husband tells me that's not actually how money works. When you save money, it feels like somebody wrote you a check a little bit. But I think all that, the little ways you feel useful and like you're sort of doing something for society by not buying one more thing off Amazon. I mean, we canceled our Amazon Prime. So that helped tremendously. I do not have the Amazon app on my phone. Because there's an ease of I need this thing, I'll just buy it. And then I've checked it off my list. But I didn't often really check it off my list. I spend more money than I should have. I get a thing of less quality than I needed. Sometimes I get the wrong thing. Then I'm stuck processing it and returning it because I was in a hurry to check it off the list. Whereas, if you're a little more careful, I feel like it goes a lot better. You know what I mean? And also then I just use stuff to solve the problems and sometimes I don't need to do that.

Beth [00:58:39] There are levels of thriftiness that I find really challenging. For example, we have a neighbor who makes incredible salsa and sells it. So it's very exciting when it's salsa day, we go crab salsa. And she makes it in these containers that are useful little containers. They wash easily. They're great if I make like a big pot of soup, you got to portion out the soup. Sarah, I probably have 300 salsa containers now.

Sarah [00:59:09] Why can't you just give them back to her?

Beth [00:59:12] I have so many salsa containers. I've asked about this. I've asked my husband about this. I'm going to press the point with her at some point, I think. Can you use these again? I don't know if she can. I don't know what kind of regulations are in place and what she's able to do and not do in this little enterprise of hers. But there are things like that. I remember my grandmother keeping all of the butter containers and those were the Tupperware. And I really try to do that, but man, storing all of that stuff? There's a point where the thriftiness starts feeling like excess in and of itself that I struggle with, too.

Sarah [00:59:44] Yeah, I do this with like every bread tie.

Beth [00:59:49] I have so many bread ties.

Sarah [00:59:50] I'm like, well, I could use this again. It still has uses. And that is hard for sure. And also you can get in this trap where you're like expending more energy than any money you would save, right? Like I could go make more money in the two hours I've spent, I don't know, cleaning out my Tupperware drawer, than I'm saving all the containers. So there is a balance. I just think in our current consumer culture, we got a while before we have to worry about it. You know what I mean? Like we're up against quite the behemoth of attention-fracking advertising platforms before we really need to worry about any sort of imbalance on the other side. Like I get that way with food. I have fully internalized the behaviors of my grandmother and great aunts who grew up during the Great Depression. And when they say wasting food is a sin, I agree. And so I have to like really watch it with food. It's probably a miracle I haven't died based on like old rice. Because did you know old rice is like really toxic?

Beth [01:01:02] Toxic!

Sarah [01:01:04] And so, yeah, that's the one I have to really watch. I don't know if my goal, like what I would really feel, but I'm always pushing Nicholas to like, eat from the freezer, eat from freezer, eat from pantry. Do I want it to be empty at some point? I'm not really even sure.

Beth [01:01:20] We also eat the leftovers for sure.

Sarah [01:01:22] I love leftovers.

Beth [01:01:23] And I am learning about produce that I just have to process it all on the weekend. Because if the grapes are washed and off the vine, my kids will house them. We will burn through the grapes. If the grapes were just in the bag where if you wanted some, you would have to wash them and then pick them off the vine yourself, they're going to go bad and I'm going to throw them away in two weeks. And I resent that a little bit, but I'm just embracing it because I hate throwing the food away, too. It makes me feel terrible.

Sarah [01:01:50] I'm looking at all these areas. I'm going to have to save a lot of money to get to this car insurance situation because goodness gracious. Welcome for tips on thrift when it comes to insuring your teenage driver. Hello at pantsuitpoliticshow.com guys, send them on. But we would love all your tips. I love hearing people's tips on this kind of stuff. I think it's the most fun. I think travel tips to save money, I highly recommend the Southwest Companion Pass for what it's worth. And any other tips you might have for thriftiness, our inboxes are open guys and the comment threads on Substack. I can't wait to dive in and listen.

Beth [01:02:31] And we are so glad to present you with options in our gift guide that aren't just stuff. We have some stuff if you like stuff because a little treat now and then is fantastic. But we also have gifts that are much more about experience and learning and community. So check that out. And fortunately it's all tariff free.

Sarah [01:02:49] Tariff free, baby. All right, we'll be back in your ears on Friday with another episode of Pantsuit Politics. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.