The Word "Ceasefire" Has Lost All Meaning

A summer check-in on Iran, Ukraine, Pope Leo's landmark AI encyclical, education's identity crisis, and ice cream.

Over the weekend, I started a “lessons learned” Google doc. I love the stark, in-your-face, no-hedging clarity that comes from a bullet point list: “Here are the words that distill years or months of experiences, emotions, decisions, triumphs, and set-backs.”

That energy seems to be in the air as Memorial Day unofficially kicks off summer. Pope Leo has distilled his thoughts on the dignity of humans. The public at-large seems to be with him on the indecency and foolishness of war. Universities and schools are changing policies in light of lessons learned, and people running for office are asking what we want our literal lessons to be.

Sarah and I discuss the headlines and the lessons we’re learning about school as parents and from teachers. Then, we end in the only way a podcast kicking off summer should: with an ode to ice cream. - Beth

Topics Discussed

• Texas Senate Primary

• Iran War

• Pope Leo and Human Dignity

• Tulsi Gabbard Resigns

• Education Policy

• Outside of Politics: Ice Cream

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Episode Resources

Pantsuit Politics Resources

Episode Topic Resources

• Full Text of ‘Magnifica Humanitas’: Read Pope Leo XIV’s First Encyclical (National Catholic Register)

• Pope Leo’s ‘Magnifica humanitas’: AI must serve humanity not concentrate power - (Vatican News)

• Anthropic co-founder Chris Olah’s remarks on Pope Leo XIV’s encyclical “Magnifica humanitas”

• Report of the Committee on Trust in Higher Education (Yale | Office of the President)

• M.C. v. Curriculum Associates (EdTech Law Center)

• The Education Crisis Nobody Wants to Fix (Pantsuit Politics)

• The Highest Elected Teacher in Kentucky (Pantsuit Politics)

• Lawsuit targets i-Ready maker over student data privacy concerns (The Educators Room)

• iReady class action: a federal suit says the app your school requires is harvesting your child’s data (Law News)

• Nutrition Science’s Most Preposterous Result: Could Ice Cream Possibly Be Good for You? (The Atlantic)

Episode Transcript

[00:00:30] Sarah: This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

[00:00:31] Beth: And this is Beth Silvers.

[00:00:33] Sarah: You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. We hope everybody had a wonderful Memorial Day weekend. Since Memorial Day is considered the unofficial beginning of summer, we thought we would catch up on some headlines and talk about what we’re paying attention to this summer. And also because we know some of you have weeks of school left, we’re also going to do a little school year wrap-up, talk about education ideas. Some policies are getting a lot of attention in higher ed and beyond. And then Outside of Politics, we’re going to talk about summer’s favorite food, ice cream.

[00:01:10] Beth: I like that you just declared it summer’s favorite food. There is no debate to be had about what summer’s favorite food is. It’s ice cream.

[00:01:12] Sarah: If there was a vote, do you think anything would get close?

[00:01:17] Beth: I don’t think so. I think this is a rare moment of consensus for us, and I like it.

[00:01:22] Sarah: Yeah. Come on, guys.

[00:01:24] Beth: This summer also is America 250, which you know we are all in on here at Pantsuit Politics. We have so many exciting things planned for you. The big finale is our live show in Minneapolis because spending time with people in person from all over the country who love their country enough to listen to a political podcast and then show up in person to hang out with each other is the best way we could think of to wrap up this occasion. So if you would like to join us for our first ever Spice Conference, as we call the Spice Cabinet our premium members, or come early for the executive producer retreat, especially if you want a hotel room with only other Pantsuit Politics listeners, we would love for you to get in on that action quickly. June 12th is our deadline to register for those events. After that, those rooms will go back to the hotel. We genuinely want to sell that hotel out so it is just Pantsuit Politics listeners. We’ve done that before in Santa Fe, and it was a really cool experience. So the link is in the show notes. You have until June 12th to make up your mind, and what are you waiting for? It’s going to be amazing.

[00:02:29] Sarah: I feel pretty confident saying you’re not going to regret coming and spending this weekend with other Pantsuit Politics listeners.

[00:02:35] Beth: Absolutely.

[00:02:35] Sarah: I don’t think I’m overpromising there. I really don’t. So come join us. All right. Next up, let’s talk about the summer. Beth, did you know it’s a super summer? I told the News Brief people this morning.

[00:02:53] Beth: I didn’t know until I watched your News Brief, and I was very excited because you know I love summer.

[00:02:59] Sarah: I know. It’s not my favorite season. I still found it exciting. If you have not heard, Memorial Day was the earliest it can be in the calendar, and Labor Day is the latest it can be in the calendar. So America’s 250 is a giant, big summer palooza on the calendar already. I really find that delightful.

[00:03:18] Beth: I do too. It’s like the universe is encouraging us here.

[00:03:21] Sarah: Lean into the summer energy. Okay. The first thing we need to talk about with big summer energy is to alert everyone that we are recording this episode on Tuesday, May 26th, before we know the results of the Texas GOP runoff for the Senate seat held by John Cornyn, who is being challenged by Ken Paxton, who most very recently received the endorsement of one Donald J. Trump.

[00:03:51] Beth: And I do not believe that Ken Paxton would have received the endorsement of one Donald J. Trump were the numbers already not tilting in his favor. So I will be very surprised if Ken Paxton is not the winner of that primary, but we’ll talk about it on Friday.

[00:04:05] Sarah: I don’t know if it’s strategic. It sounded like from the reporting that he just got real mad because they wouldn’t fire the parliamentarian. Is that what you read? That’s what I read.

[00:04:13] Beth: He does get a bee in his bonnet on the regular and just make up a new thing. I was reading this summary of his presidency so far, and the word whim kept coming up. And I thought, that’s right.  That’s what it is.

[00:04:25] Sarah: My favorite part of this was the reporting that he felt like the United States Senate was getting in his way, and I thought, “Wow, are you on a different page than the rest of us if you think this particular United States Senate is standing in your way.”

[00:04:47] Beth: Would that they were, mr president.

[00:04:49] Sarah: Would that they were.

[00:04:52] Beth: That is the Constitutional design.

[00:04:55] Sarah: I do have another breaking reporting before we get into the bigger weekend headlines that I did want to discuss with you. Did you see that he’s heading back to the doctor again?

[00:05:04] Beth: I did.

[00:05:06] Sarah: For the third time.

[00:05:06] Beth: Don’t worry. It’s just a normal routine check-in. That’s what I’m told.

[00:05:12] Sarah: But it’s not routine. It’s more than routine. This is the third one since he was sworn in. And why are there always dental visits? What’s the dental visits about?

[00:05:22] Beth: I have sympathy. I’ve had some dental issues this year. It’s very unpleasant.

[00:05:25] Sarah: Fair.

[00:05:26] Beth: It does take a lot of time. Feels like a part-time job when you have dental issues.

[00:05:29] Sarah: Okay. I don’t know. I have some questions. I don’t plan on them ever getting answered.

[00:05:35] Beth: Right.

[00:05:36] Sarah: But I do have some questions.

[00:05:38] Beth: I have only questions. I have only questions about pretty much everything coming out of the White House. I’m told this visit is routine. I was assured this weekend that the war was wrapping up.

[00:05:46] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:05:47] Beth: Just who knows?

[00:05:48] Sarah: I think what we do know is that the word ceasefire has lost all meaning. It means nothing. It means nothing between Israel and Lebanon. It means nothing between Ukraine and Russia. And it certainly means nothing between Iran and the United States. So they’re negotiating. I think they were literally on their way to Qatar to take out this next round, which from both sides sounded like it was getting... It had some movement. I’m trying to think of the lowest I can set the expectations.

[00:06:18] Beth: I was Excited to hear where it was getting because I never really understood that. It was getting.

[00:06:23] Sarah: Yeah, I don’t think it was getting anywhere, but I do think it was moving. And then I wake up this morning on Tuesday, and we’re striking in “self-defense” against missile sites. I think the reporting from Central Command-- I don’t know if reporting’s the right word. The story from Central Command is that the Iranians were laying mines in the Strait of Hormuz, and so the United States, we launched strikes. And now, of course, the Iranians are accusing the United States of violating the ceasefire. They’re threatening retaliation. Who knows what will have happened by the time people are listening to this episode in a mere 24 hours or less.

[00:06:58] Beth: All weekend as I took in this reporting about the negotiations, I thought, “I don’t know what’s supposed to be different about this.”

[00:07:05] Sarah: No.

[00:07:06] Beth: To me, what the word ceasefire means is global leaders now understand that war is unpopular. People don’t want it. People want it to stop, and so they are churning out information to say, “Yeah, it’s totally in the process of stopping.” At some point it will stop.

[00:07:23] Sarah: It’s maybe stopping at some point in the future.

[00:07:25] Beth: But we are currently not at that point.

[00:07:28] Sarah: Yeah. It just feels like spin. It just feels like they know it’s unpopular, so we got to spin it, but really what we’re talking about is intractable conflicts and quagmires that never go anywhere. Although, I will say I felt that way about Ukraine and Russia, and now I’m out here reading reports about the collapse of Putin’s rule. Could that happen?

[00:07:53] Beth: I don’t know.

[00:07:53] Sarah: I mean, he’s losing. That’s for sure. Just in case you’ve been wrapped up, as you should be, with the Iranians, the situation between Ukraine and Russia has progressed. It is going somewhere, and it’s nowhere good for Vladimir Putin.

[00:08:09] Beth: I just don’t know if it’s anywhere good for Ukraine either. That’s the problem. These things are moving, but they are not moving, in my view, in a win-lose direction. It is just that once war has started, everybody loses. How much are you going to lose? How publicly are you going to lose? We’re seeing that with Iran. If there is a deal to be had here, it is a worse deal for the United States than what was in place before the bombing started. And I just think that’s going to be the lesson everywhere.

[00:08:38] Sarah: Yeah. And I think that I don’t know if that’s going to get across to the American people. His polling would suggest that it is coming across that like we started something with no plan, on a whim, with no actual long-term strategy in place, and it has made us worse off. And even if I feel like the stock market is rising and falling less on every single statement he says, right? It’s like everybody’s catching on that we’re coming out worse, no matter what.

[00:09:11] Beth: If we’re thinking about what am I watching for this summer, one of the things I’m watching for is what lessons are people learning. Are people becoming more apathetic? Is this more evidence that nothing matters? Or are people taking this information and feeling motivated by it?

[00:09:28] Sarah: I felt like the reason Pope Leo’s encyclical, Magnifica Humanitas, landed so strongly from my worldview, from my perspective, was because it was finally somebody saying, “We can learn. We can lead towards a solution. We can say just war no longer applies. This is what we’ve learned. We’ve learned that humanity is never better off, and unless it is in a situation of intense self-defense, then don’t think that there’s some justification for taking these actions that make everybody worse.” And that was like the small part on war. The whole thing was really about artificial intelligence, and it just felt like such Leadership. That’s the word I keep coming back to. It felt like leadership in a place where people struggle to learn lessons because I think we have to learn them collectively. And if you don’t have somebody leading the conversation in a way to say, “We should learn, we should grow, we should get better, things should get better for everybody,” then it does make it hard to learn a lesson. It does make it hard to take, have a takeaway. And so when somebody like Pope Leo comes along and says, “I will lead us to a place where we can come to conclusions, where we can learn, where we can improve the situation for everybody,” God, it just feels like a warm hug.

[00:10:49] Beth: It’s the opposite of nothing matters. This document connects war and artificial intelligence and an apology for a role in legitimizing slavery and all kinds of other things with the thread of human dignity. It is you matter. You matter, and we matter, and all of us matter. I was really moved by a quote in one of the articles I read about this coming together, when someone said, “Hey, we’re really concerned that so many people believe that so few people matter right now.

[00:11:20] Sarah: Yes.

[00:11:21] Beth: So many people believe that only a handful of tech executives and the politicians who could regulate them and the people who can fund them, they are the only voices that count now. And here comes this document that does what the best of the church does, of any church, right? Any church, religion at its best is saying, “All people matter. All people deserve dignity, not because of what they create or produce or facilitate, but just because they are.” And that message coming out so clearly in this modern form, strategic form... you can see the Pope learning lessons in a whole bunch of different ways about how the church can speak and be heard. It’s really encouraging.

[00:12:05] Sarah: The only thing I don’t know is 42,000 words is what I would consider a modern form in our time of tiny attention spans. But I thought the way he took this, the past, “I’m going to speak to the past. I’m not going to offer you a vision of the future without acknowledging the failures of the past.” This man. I’m going to be Catholic before it’s over. I’m just telling you now. I’m on my way. So the way he articulated over and over again-- because to me what’s special about it is not just we all matter, but he’s saying “This is why we matter, because we are creations of God, because we all contain this divine spark.” So it’s not just that I’m, like, offering this universal, approved by everybody. I think the way he balances these are the values of the church, this is why they matter to everybody, but we do have values, and maybe you don’t agree with all of them. Maybe you don’t agree that there’s a spark of the divine in every human being, but we do, and that’s where we’re finding the structure and the values and the foundational principles to offer both a new and better understanding of the past and where we failed, and a new and better understanding of the future, because it does matter, and this cynical nihilism is not making anybody happier in the present, much less in the future.

[00:13:27] Beth: I read a book a few years ago about young people and faith, and the book talked about how young people in particular desire the specificity of faith. They desire, “We believe this.”

[00:13:39] Sarah: Yep.

[00:13:40] Beth: You don’t have to believe it, and you don’t have to agree with us, but this is what we believe. So I agree with you that it’s interesting to see that thread come through in this document. He’s not trying to talk to the whole world in terms of the teachings that animate his thoughts, but he is trying to start a conversation for the whole world.

[00:13:58] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:13:59] Beth: Which is another opportunity that I hope lots of denominations and faiths see this and chime in. Here’s our perspective, and here is what’s different. Let’s have an argument about it even among the world’s great religions. AI is worth having that argument over.

[00:14:15] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:14:15] Beth: And I love that he started it and reminded people that those arguments can go somewhere. I love that he had an executive from Anthropic there. Let’s argue. Let’s do it. And I think that it answers a call that you hear from some people in Silicon Valley. We shouldn’t be the only people thinking about this. The best policy on AI I’ve seen so far came from a church board because the church said, “These are our principles. Okay, given these principles, here’s where AI can be used. Here’s where it should not be. Here’s how we’re going to keep having conversations as the technology changes and as we change.” That’s what I’m looking for everywhere. That’s the energy I need.

[00:14:58] Sarah: Yeah, because I feel like he didn’t just start it. He’s leading it. This is not just an opening volley, right? This is like I’m coming to play. I’ve thought about this. I have 42,000 words on it. This is not like I didn’t fire off a Facebook post about my generalized thoughts. This is a careful outline of our foundational principles and what we think and are advocating for should come next. And to me what was so stark is him coming out, leading this conversation, especially because of what you just articulated about young people, in contrast to another gunman. A very young 21-year-old gunman at the White House. And man, it barely made the headlines. That this young person came to the White House, opened fire, lost his life, a bystander got shot, and Trump was in the White House, and it just everybody’s like “Huh, there we go, another person who feels like their only option is to go open fire on this president.”

[00:15:59] Beth: Here’s what came to mind for me when I saw this story. When I was in law school, I took a business law class where the professor, who I disliked so much that I can’t even remember his name now, I have mostly erased him from my memory. But the first day of class, he held up our textbook, which is just a whole bunch of cases that we’re going to read about business law, and he said, “This is a book of failures. If you are a good business lawyer, your clients should never end up in front of a court, especially not the Supreme Court. Your job is to see around corners and prevent this from happening.” That was a great way to start our class.

[00:16:33] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:16:33] Beth: As I read this story, I thought, “Are we starting to see a book of failures for the Secret Service?” This gunman was known to them, that’s my understanding.

[00:16:41] Sarah: Oh.

[00:16:43] Beth: The fact that this keeps happening over and over again, there are some unique things about President Trump, but there have always been people who have mental illnesses, who attach to public figures in destructive ways. There have always been groups who have wished to assassinate a president. This is happening too frequently, and I am curious about whether we’ll ever get transparent reporting on that, or congressional investigation, or something to help us understand why this keeps happening, why they keep getting this close, why we aren’t in front of this more.

[00:17:18] Sarah: I think that’s true, and also I do think there is something different about right now to the artificial intelligence of it all, and the war of it all, that people feel particularly powerless. And to what you said about they think only certain people matter and certain people have impact. And when that is the narrative, and I do think that’s the narrative right now, then it’s not surprising to me that particularly young men feel that the only way to bring control back into their hands is violence. That’s not new. That’s also something Pope Leo could speak on. That’s not a new thing. And I do think just because of the economy, the job market, the institutional struggle, the global conflict, and definitely artificial intelligence, people feel so lost and out of control. Now, to the law enforcement or intelligence failure of it all, I am worried that these are escalating. And here we have Tulsi resigning, I’m sure after taking a sledgehammer to our intelligence apparatus. And it’s one thing when you have lone gunmen going after the president. It’s another thing when you have global conflicts, loss of allies, increased enemies, and I’m just not really sure anybody has their hands on the wheel when it comes to national security and intelligence. I’m a little concerned about that

[00:18:55] Beth: I was just reading about how the president does not have a lot of respect for our cybersecurity infrastructure in the federal government because instead of thinking about the function of the government in protecting water supplies and electrical grids and banks and so much of the infrastructure that makes the country run, he thinks about CISA, that particular agency, as associated with the 2020 election.

[00:19:25] Sarah: Hot take, who does he have respect for in the federal government?

[00:19:30] Beth: Fair. There are so many spots that you can point to within the intelligence and security space that have been significantly and purposefully degraded under this president, even as the need for that expertise has increased substantially because of this president.

[00:19:50] Sarah: I do believe, Tulsi, that she is resigning because her husband’s recent cancer diagnosis, for what it’s worth.

[00:19:56] Beth: Absolutely, and I’m really sorry about that. And I’ve seen some very sweet photos of the two of them. And whatever you think about her as qualified for or effective in this role, and I have strong feelings on both points, it’s a horrible thing to have happen in a marriage and to be coping with, and I hope that they are able to really enjoy this time together.

[00:20:17] Sarah: But I think to the what we’re paying attention to this summer, I just think we’re getting to a point in this particular presidential term where we are starting to see the fallout of the whims. And I don’t just mean in his polling numbers, right? I think that we are going to see the stress this has created on the federal bureaucracy play out in some real ways. I think we will probably end the summer with some more cabinet resignations or “joining the private sector.” Because as the fallout of his decisions continues, he’s going to start blaming people, and he’s going to keep lashing out, and I think we should all just expect that.

[00:21:08] Beth: And in terms of what I’m looking for over the summer, especially going into the midterm elections and as 2028 really takes off, for the past year, there’s been a lot of discussion about what we can learn from Trump in terms of campaigning and reaching people and drawing in constituencies who typically are apathetic at best about politics. The governance failures of those whims tell me that we need something completely different. We should not take those lessons. That those are the wrong lessons. Maybe they’re helpful lessons for campaigning, but they are not helpful lessons for governing. And so how do we all integrate that in our understanding as we go vote this November and two years from now? I’m very interested to see what develops.

[00:22:02] Sarah: Up Next, let’s talk about our education system. Do a little check-in as some of us are already out of school and some of us have a couple weeks left. My high-level take as a parent in the K through 12 system this school year is that it felt like to me the shift went from Phones are the problem. because I think there’s enough sort of phone policy now, and it’s widespread enough. Plus we’re getting some studies that taking the phones away completely doesn’t really change that much that quickly, to more of an emphasis on the ed tech and the software. We have the big class action suit against i-Ready for a lack of data security. I felt like I read a lot about what are these doing? Are these helping? To me, that felt like the focus that we’re really starting to get some sustained attention on, post-COVID, we rolled out all these computers. What did that shift? The software, is it actually delivering on what it’s promised? Or is it just a marketing machine that sweeps up everybody in its wake and doesn’t actually deliver? That, to me, felt like the macro trend that I felt this school year.

[00:23:18] Beth: That’s where a lot of my attention has been, too. Part of that is because I have a fifth grader, and I think fifth grade is a place where you can really see ed- tech failing to deliver on that promise.

[00:23:29] Sarah: Yep.

[00:23:29] Beth: And it’s more of a stressor and a check the box. I have a freshman in high school. I’ve noticed a big difference in her commitment to and interest in school now that she has a little bit less of that ed- tech every single day and has more classes that just feel like classes. And there are group projects, and they read whole books and talk about them. I didn’t realize how much had been missing for her at school until she started to get some of it in high school. So that’s been exciting to see and sad at the same time because I think about how many of those types of experiences I was having really third through eighth grade that she hasn’t had yet. So I’ve been thinking a lot about that as a parent, too.

[00:24:15] Sarah: And it feels like even from our conversation with Rahm Emanuel and all his ideas, that it’s coming back into a policy conversation. I feel like post-COVID, everybody kind of decided like we’re not up for any big changes right now. We’re good. But now, especially as we move into the more 2028 primary space, we had Lieutenant Governor Jacqueline Coleman on, she talked a great deal about education. It feels like it’s not just about individual parents thinking wait, or individual school systems like what’s working, what’s not, but that there’s more of a national conversation about what actual policy changes do we want to make? What are we still debating as far as like school choice or charter schools? What are we up for having a conversation? What do we want to have a conversation about around teacher pay or teachers unions? It just feels like all of that’s like coming back online as far as actual policy.

[00:25:30] Beth: The sense that I have about that is that, one, it’s exciting because it means it’s a priority. And two, it’s extremely complicated. And I sense from teachers generally in our audience-- I’ve spent a lot of time with teachers this year for More to Say. I sense among teachers real trepidation about it because it seems like wherever we are, teachers get left holding the bag.

[00:25:57] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:25:58] Beth: And I think what I’m coming to realize in a deeper way is that you go into teaching because you want to be the CEO of your classroom. You go in thinking, “I’m a professional. I have a passion for learning myself and a passion for sharing learning with others.” You don’t go into teaching to be told, “Now, every week your students need to complete five DreamBox lessons. And all of your plans for the week need to be uploaded in Canvas or Google Classroom or whatever, so that if any student misses, they can just hop on and see what they missed and get caught right back up.” The role of the teacher it feels like no matter what set of policy objectives we’re aiming at, is continually minimized to just be like one cog in this giant wheel. And until we fix that, I don’t think the wheels all spin together and move us somewhere.

[00:26:59] Sarah: Here’s the tough part. Now, the teachers in our audience, I totally agree. I think the teachers in our audience largely came to teaching as a vocation, as a calling. They have a purpose. That is not my experience with all teachers. I think there’s a lot of teachers that take the job for a lot of complicated reasons that aren’t necessarily vocation. And I don’t think we have a good system to acknowledge that reality, right? And I think that’s why you hear more and more conversations around teacher pay and teacher performance and teachers unions because the people who are laying it all on the field are like, “Oh my God, you got to be kidding me.” And also, if you have, as I do, very close friends who are teachers, nobody knows that better than teachers; that some of their coworkers are in fact not leaving it all on the field. You know what I’m saying? And also they shouldn’t be called to leave it all on the field. They can also just get paid like for the professionals they are. Hell. And I think what’s so clear to me as this these conversations start to bubble back up, including with our episode around Rahm Emanuel, what is so true about education, which there are just so many constituencies. It’s not like anybody who rolled into the discussion around Rahm Emanuel’s policy ideas, I didn’t look at anybody and be like, “Oh my God, give me a break.” Even if I disagreed with them, even I was like, “No, I think that’s not quite right,” it’s not like any comment I read I was like, “Oh, come on,” like you’re reducing this in a really simplistic way. You’re like, “Yeah, that’s a good point. I’m not sure that should steer the ship, but it’s not a bad point.” You know what I’m saying? It’s so exceedingly complicated. There are so many constituencies. What we’re trying to achieve is hard. And also taking a year to figure out it’s hard. I’ll never forget. I was in an SBDM meeting one time, and they were talking about ed- tech, and they were talking about this new math curriculum, and the company tells us it takes one to two years to really get it working and to see the results. And I’m like what about the kids who took it the one to two years? You’re unwrapping, man? They don’t get to do third grade math again. So just all of that is so difficult, and you hear that in the policy conversation. It’s not like somebody rolls in and is like, “This is easy.” Everything with education is hard.

[00:29:12] Beth: Which makes me wonder, how do you successfully talk about it when you’re running for office? I think that someone like a Lieutenant Governor Jacqueline Coleman has an advantage built in because she was a teacher. So she at least has the credibility. I’ve been there. I’ve walked in your shoes. I’m thinking about you, I promise. I promise I’m thinking about what actually happens in classrooms in a way that many people are not capable of thinking about what actually happens in classrooms. If you don’t have that credibility and you’re still trying to elevate the issue, you are someone like Rahm Emanuel, this is important to me. I believe we’ve failed around it as a party or as a country. I think both things are true. How can you discuss it knowing that there are all these constituents, that people have a good point, that the purpose of school is different family to family, even within the same school district? When I hear conversations about grade inflation, it’s been in the headlines this week, conversations about what standardized tests mean and what their role should be, I realize I’m just in a different place on what school is for than a lot of people, even in my community. Because a lot of people in my community still look at school as the on-ramp to career. And because my career has been so weird, and I do a thing that wasn’t a thing when I was in school, I think about school as collecting a whole lot of skills, building foundational critical thinking, and then you get out into the world, and the world’s going to change, and you have the capacity to change with it.

[00:30:51] Sarah: Yeah.

[00:30:51] Beth: But that’s just not where a lot of parents are. And so designing any kind of proposal around schools, you’re supposed to begin with the end in mind, but we all have different ends in mind.

[00:31:01] Sarah: Yeah. Listening to Rahm Emanuel, I think both things were true. One, he is passionate about it. He believes it’s the most important thing, and I agree with him. And two, he hasn’t had a kid in the system in a while, and that’s also clear. And I don’t know if it should be required that you’ve had a kid in the system. Maybe the clearest vision about what will work is somebody who has a little distance, who can say “I see you’re caught up emotionally in this because it’s your time and it’s your kid and everything but sometimes to get to a compromise, to get to a negotiated place, you have to have a little distance.” And I don’t know what the answer is there. I know what I’m looking for is just people who are talking about it, who are acknowledging we’re not where we should be. I agree. I think the career readiness has gone too far, and we’ve lost the plot that a functioning democracy depends on an educated citizenry, period. And I don’t mean educated to make sure you make the most money. I mean educated that you’re a learned, knowledgeable, wise person with a base understanding of science, the scientific method, history, literature, and math. And I do think that’s another thing that started happening. You heard these conversations around education this year that were like, “What are we doing?” Especially around teachers. What else could we ask them to be? Security guards? Social workers? Psychologists? Behavioral specialists? What about actually teaching? And I think that kind of breakthrough... and I think this is true in lots of things, in lots of ways, but I think education is definitely one of them. Higher ed has lost the capacity to lead the way because it is so consumed with its own market and institution and institutional failures. I think institutions of higher ed in particular should be leading the way on policy and strategy and thinking around education, and I think they’re getting there. That’s another thing I saw this year that I was encouraged by. As a person who’s about to send a child to college, I pay very close attention to higher education trends. And you have the study from Yale. I’m not saying it’s perfect, this report on what the changes need to be. You have Harvard voting to stop with the everybody gets an A. It does feel like there is some energy around acknowledging that higher ed is also not in a great place and has some changes to make and has some improvements to be working towards, and I think that was really encouraging to me as well.

[00:33:31] Beth: What I think is really important about naming that about higher ed, even though every kid is not going to go through higher ed, is that you can’t just talk about K-12 without talking about all the things that happen around it. So, for example, I’ve spent a lot of time this year thinking about kids with disabilities, and especially for people whose children have severe disabilities that require lots of therapies and lots of support systems, school is the only place we’re providing that right now. More fundamentally, school is the only place in society where we speak with a clear voice to say, “These children are seen and valued, and they matter, and we owe them these supports.” So when you start talking about educational changes without thinking about kids who need that extra support at school, you face a lot of opposition because school is the place where that’s happening. If you want to make some changes that would conflict with, take resources from, intrude on, or otherwise impact this enormous and itself incredibly diverse population of people, then I think you also need to be talking about where else that happens. Where else do those therapies come into play? How else as a society do we say this child has dignity and worth, and we owe this child these services and these supports and every opportunity to participate fully in society? But we don’t do a good job of that anywhere but school right now. And that puts even more pressure on the teacher to wear a million different hats. And more pressure on the administrator to stretch every dollar as far as it will possibly go. More pressure on the district. The pressure just keeps adding up because we keep doing it through this one mechanism, and I think that one mechanism is showing the results of that, not just with respect to disabilities, but all the places where we do it. So building more support around the school will enable the school to be a better school.

[00:35:33] Sarah: And maybe just the theme is we’re looking for leadership. If it comes from Pope Leo, great. If it comes from candidates presenting new and exciting ideas around problems we all know are an issue, wonderful. If it’s higher education stepping up and saying, “Hey, we have thought leaders and scholars here, and here are our ideas about what can come next,” even better. because we have an absence of leadership in the White House, and so the more places where people step up and exert and show leadership in other institutions, the better. Beth, we recently talked about articles that just stay with us. Article that stays with me is this piece in The Atlantic a couple years ago that was basically like, ice cream is good for you and nutritionists don’t want to talk about it because they really can’t explain it. But there is a decent amount of science that ice cream isn’t that good for you.

[00:36:44] Beth: I loved that article. I think about it all the time too. And something about it just feels right to me.

[00:36:51] Sarah: If you think about it long enough especially as a mother of a diabetic. And they talk about this in the article. A lot of this makes sense. Because it is so high in fat and protein with the sugar, and that is just not something you get in a lot of sugary foods. But it changes the game tremendously. Tremendously. And even as my eating has evolved as I’ve gotten older and I can’t eat the things I used to because they make me nauseous or they crash me out too hard- like a donut. I don’t feel that around ice cream. Ice cream does not make me feel like that. Now, weirdly, milkshakes do, and I don’t know why. We have nutrition scientists in our audience. Can someone explain why the ice cream is okay, but the milkshake makes me want to puke? That would be helpful to me.

[00:37:37] Beth: And I will say with the ice cream, I got to eat it before 4:00 PM.

[00:37:40] Sarah: Okay.

[00:37:40] Beth: You know what I mean? I can’t eat ice cream late in the day.

[00:37:43] Sarah: Yeah, no you’re not allowed to eat until 10:00.

[00:37:46] Beth: Then I really start to feel bad. I won’t sleep well. But before 4:00, a little scoop of ice cream gives me a boost.  It does.

[00:37:53] Sarah: Listen, my peak summer experience, I like to eat ice cream on the move. Okay? So ice cream is not my first dessert. If there’s like ice cream in my freezer in November, it’s not going anywhere. Okay? It’s just going to chill there. But if I’m traveling somewhere, if we’re on a summer vacay, and we’re anywhere. I don’t care where we are. Every afternoon I’m like, “Let’s go get a little ice cream con.” Ice cream cone as we walk around. Ice cream on a boardwalk. Ice cream in a city. Ice cream on the beach. I don’t care. Am I walking? Is it hot? I want to have an ice cream cone in my hand. Do you understand?

[00:38:27] Beth: I do. I understand that part of your comments, but I do not understand the ice cream chilling in your freezer because it is my dessert of choice. It is the thing I would rather have than anything else. So tell me, what flavor are you getting for your ice cream walk?

[00:38:42] Sarah: Okay, because of the soft foods which is probably why sometimes I will not search out an ice cream, and especially if there’s if like a vanilla ice cream’s in my freezer, I don’t care. So my ice cream needs to have something to chew on in it. So Dairy Queen, obviously we love the Dairy Queen. In the South, we’re devotees. So my Dairy Queen

[00:39:04] Beth: What’s better than Blizzard? Come on.

[00:39:07] Sarah: A Blizzard with the Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup. And I try other things. Now wait. I will say this. In the summer, sometimes they do a Drumstick Blizzard with chocolate covered pieces of cone in it. And that I just cannot. It’s how I also feel about the Blue Bells that had-- they do a Kentucky Derby one that you can never find it anymore, that had a pie piece, like pie crust pieces in it. There’s something about if you take the container, like a pie crust, an ice cream cone that’s like super sweet, and you put it in the ice cream. Put it in my veins

[00:39:46] Beth: First of all, I think a drumstick is a near perfect food. I love a drumstick. You get some peanut butter on there, I’m thrilled.

[00:39:52] Sarah:  Have you had the drumstick Blizzard?

[00:39:55] Beth: Yes, I’ve had the drumstick Blizzard. It’s so good. Very good. I struggle to expand my Blizzard repertoire because I love an M&M Blizzard so much.

[00:40:04] Sarah: You just go back.

[00:40:04] Beth: You talk about crunch in your ice cream, the M&M Blizzard is bringing the crunch. It’s so delicious. It’s the perfect amount of chocolate. It is really one of my favorite treats of all time.

[00:40:16] Sarah: Okay, so I’m a vanilla base with a chocolate add in. I do not in fact enjoy chocolate ice cream.

[00:40:24] Beth: I like chocolate ice cream, but for my Blizzard I want a vanilla base with the M& Ms.

[00:40:28] Sarah: It goes beyond my Blizzards. I do like a Ben & Jerry’s, and I like a Ben & Jerry’s that has a vanilla base. I love the Phish Food. That’s one of my favorite Ben & Jerry flavors. If I’m, like, in a ice cream parlor, I will get a cookies and cream. If I’m in somewhere where there’s gelato, Europe, I’m doing a stracciatella where they mix the chocolate in and it hardens. But I’m almost always a vanilla base with a chocolate add-in. Almost always.

[00:40:57] Beth: Interesting. So if I am in an ice cream parlor, I’m getting butter pecan. And I know this is controversial. I know this is like coming out and saying I love Werther’s Originals in my purse.

[00:41:08] Sarah: Listen, but Nicholas’ s is rum raisin. You seem like a completely beautiful, normal person compared to rum raisin being your choice.

[00:41:16] Beth: Thank you very much. I think butter pecan is almost impossible to do well in the grocery store container.

[00:41:25] Sarah: Okay.

[00:41:25] Beth: But from a parlor, I think it’s the best. I just love it.

[00:41:28] Sarah: I’ve only ever had butter pecan from the grocery store.

[00:41:32] Beth: Then you’re doing it wrong. I’m sorry.

[00:41:34] Sarah: Does Graeter’s have a butter pecan?

[00:41:38] Beth: Graeter’s does. Now, at Graeter’s I don’t get the butter pecan because Graeter’s pours the chocolate in while it’s spinning the ice cream, and so there are these enormous--

[00:41:47] Sarah: I love it so much.

[00:41:48] Beth: Unbelievably high-quality chunks of chocolate chip

[00:41:50] Sarah: Hot fudge is just next level. Next level. It’s so good

[00:41:54] Beth: So at Graeter’s I’m into the chocolate category. But UDF’s butter pecan, delicious. Every little local ice cream shop, I feel the butter pecan is much, much better than what you can buy at the grocery store.

[00:42:12] Sarah: Do you put chocolate on top of it?

[00:42:14] Beth: No.

[00:42:14] Sarah: Okay. I’m going to try it. I’ll try anything but once.

[00:42:18] Beth:  Just have some butter Pecan in a cone. It’s great.

[00:42:21] Sarah: Okay, because I really don’t think I’ve ever had butter pecan at an ice cream shop.

[00:42:27] Beth: And the farther south you go, the better it gets. You know what I’m saying?

[00:42:29] Sarah: I love pecans. Look, it’s my favorite nut. If a dessert has a pecan in it, I will eat it. I think they elevate literally everything.

[00:42:36] Beth: If you’re in South Carolina, you must get a butter pecan ice cream.

[00:42:39] Sarah: Okay. That makes sense to me, because praline adjacent. You know what I mean? Now, I have a couple times gotten... I was in Miami once in Little Havana, and I got this I don’t remember the name, but it was, like, a cookie jam mix-in. I still think about it. But I very rarely get a fruit ice cream.

[00:43:01] Beth: Yeah, I don’t want a fruit ice cream. I’m going to have a problem.

[00:43:04] Sarah: No. It’s just going to be chocolate. It’s going to be chocolate. And I don’t get sorbet either.

[00:43:08] Beth: No Cause again you can get a good sorbet. If you want a sorbet, you can go to the grocery store and get a good sorbet. You can make your own sorbet at home.

[00:43:17] Sarah: True.

[00:43:17] Beth: Super easy, pretty delicious and refreshing. If I’m buying ice cream where a human is scooping it for me, it’s just I have a different expectation for that than everywhere else.

[00:43:27] Sarah: That makes sense to me. If I’m in a parlor, I will often get-- even though my Blizzard item is Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup, I almost never order a Reese’s Peanut Butter Cup in a like ice cream shop. I’m almost always getting some sort of cookie add-in. But here’s a weird one for you. I don’t like any sort of brownie add-in.

[00:43:50] Beth: I think that’s because you don’t like the things that are soft.

[00:43:52] Sarah: Yeah, it’s too mushy. So a cookie is real good, and sometimes I’ll get cookie dough. Do you remember how revolutionary chocolate chip cookie dough was in the beginning? Nicholas and I were talking about it the other day. Do you remember the first time you had it and you were like, “This is life-changing.”

[00:44:06] Beth: Yes. 100%. Have you seen the Instagram reels of people roasting cookie dough like a s’more over a fire?

[00:44:13] Sarah: Nicholas was talking about this, but I don’t know about that. Yeah. Now, and I do like a s’more Blizzard. I have found that sometimes when I go out of my comfort zone a little bit at DQ, I do like the ones that feature the marshmallow flavor. Even though I’m prone to like, “Ooh, that’s too sweet,” I don’t know. I kind of dig it.

[00:44:31] Beth: I don’t want marshmallow anywhere.

[00:44:33] Sarah: Really?

[00:44:34] Beth: I don’t.

[00:44:35] Sarah: Do you eat s’mores?

[00:44:35] Beth: Except in hot chocolate.

[00:44:36] Sarah: Wait, do you eat s’mores?

[00:44:38] Beth: That’s it. Don’t really like them.

[00:44:39] Sarah: Oh, no.

[00:44:41] Beth: I’ll do it as a novelty for the experience and the vibe.  But I don’t want it, no.

[00:44:47] Sarah: God, I love s’mores. Have you ever had a s’more with a Peep?

[00:44:50] Beth: Yes. And I like the crunchiness on the outside, but even with a Peep, I’m just like, it’s just marshmallow. I don’t really want that.

[00:44:58] Sarah: It’s just a take. You know I love a s’more.

[00:45:00] Beth: The person who asked us to talk about ice cream specifically wanted to know our feelings on mint chocolate chip.

[00:45:05] Sarah: I will eat it. I’m not opposed. Sometimes I’ll be like, “You know what? That sounds good.” But it’s real hit or miss.

[00:45:16] Beth: It is hit or miss because people try to make it almost medicinally mint.

[00:45:20] Sarah: Yeah, and it starts getting a little toothpasty.

[00:45:22] Beth: I don’t want that. Yeah, but I do love mint. Honestly, if there could only be one way that things smell in the world, I would choose mint. I love mint.

[00:45:31] Sarah: I’m just going to lean a lot more on chocolate and peanut butter. And you know what really goes together well? I, one time, in I believe it was Midway, Kentucky, had a piece of chocolate cake with cinnamon ice cream that I still think about.

[00:45:48] Beth: Oh, yeah.

[00:45:48] Sarah: Delicious.

[00:45:50] Beth: Yeah.

[00:45:50] Sarah: Delicious. Now, what is your take on the banana split?

[00:45:57] Beth: I rarely want a banana split because it’s too fruity.

[00:45:59] Sarah: Me Either. I don’t like a banana split.

[00:46:01] Beth: The form in which I most enjoy banana as it relates to ice cream is, one, a homemade banana ice cream is exceptional.

[00:46:09] Sarah: Okay.

[00:46:10] Beth: Okay? If somebody has an ice cream maker that actually involves ice and salt and not so much the electricity, spinning things, like the old-fashioned way of making ice cream with bananas, incredible. Love that. I also think that the Dippin’ Dots banana split is very good.

[00:46:27] Sarah: Dippin’ Dots is a great finale for this conversation. For those of you who do not know, Dippin’ Dots were invented in Paducah, Kentucky, and are still manufactured here to this day, which is one of our major claims to fame. So obviously I’m legally obligated to enjoy Dippin’ Dots. But even if I weren’t, I would still like them. Here’s the problem with people who do not have a deep and abiding relationship with Dippin’ Dots as those of us who live in Paducah and/or Kentucky do. People eat them too fast. A Dippin’ Dot needs to be, like, a lightly melted, guys. Maybe like 10 minutes. 10-ish minutes after you’ve gotten your Dippin’ Dots. But people eat them straight and they stick to your tongue, and it’s kind of like it’s too cold. Obviously, it’s ice cream of the future, it’s very cold. But like a lightly melted Dippin’ Dots cookie and cream at the water park is great. It’s great. It’s a great experience. You have to believe me.

[00:47:18] Beth: The Dippin’ Dot, I think, is for the water park, the amusement park, the walk and eat that you’re talking about.

[00:47:25] Sarah: Yes.

[00:47:25] Beth: You’re supposed to get some sun on them as you eating them.

[00:47:29] Sarah: Yep, just a little.

[00:47:29] Beth: And I think that the multi-flavor Dippin’ Dot is the way to go, because they’re so cold that if you just get a flavor, it doesn’t taste like much.

[00:47:37] Sarah: No.

[00:47:38] Beth: But I like the banana split because you’ve got some variety going on there.

[00:47:41] Sarah: And the cookies and cream, they put actual cookie chunks in there.

[00:47:44] Beth: There you go.

[00:47:45] Sarah: Just saying.

[00:47:45] Beth: I think the mint chocolate chip Dippin’ Dot is quite good.

[00:47:48] Sarah: It’s pretty good. Okay. Listen, I’m just so proud. We went to Japan and there was Dippin’ Dots for sale, okay?

[00:47:53] Beth: They’re fun.

[00:47:54] Sarah: They’re fun. It’s the ice cream of the future.

[00:47:57] Beth: For decades now. That’s okay.

[00:47:59] Sarah: It’s okay.

[00:47:59] Beth:  Who’s Counting?

[00:48:00] Sarah: It’s okay. All right, I’m excited. You know what we haven’t discussed? This is how we will end and open it up to the audience.

[00:48:08] Beth: Okay.

[00:48:09] Sarah: I’m always up for homemade ice cream recipes. So if someone has perfected the homemade ice cream, which is an entire just genre we have not discussed, I’m into it. That is actually where I do enjoy a fruit ice cream. I do think a homemade ice cream shines with a peach or a strawberry

[00:48:30] Beth: I think that’s true. I’m really having to bite my tongue right now because we do have a Ninja CREAMi. And that is a whole genre as well.

[00:48:37] Sarah: I want one of those and Nicholas won’t get me one because he doesn’t love me.

[00:48:40] Beth: Nicholas, you got to do it, my friend. You will never regret it. That is a whole genre to itself, too. I think that’s different than the homemade ice cream that I grew up eating.

[00:48:51] Sarah: I want to churn it. I want to hear the sound.

[00:48:53] Beth: The churning is a unique thing, yes. But the CREAMi, very good. Very enjoyable.

[00:48:58] Sarah: And it’s got to be a million times easier. You’re not dealing with rock salt.

[00:49:01] Beth: Correct. And it makes just a little bit so everybody just enjoys a little bit.

[00:49:06] Sarah: This is what I want.

[00:49:09] Beth: And you should have it.

[00:49:12] Sarah: Okay. All right, so I want the CREAMi recipes and I want the home-churned recipes. because you want the home-churned for a party. You’re having a barbecue.

[00:49:21] Beth: They are distinct, for sure. They’re very different.

[00:49:24] Sarah: We probably could just do a whole podcast series about ice cream, but I’ll try to tighten it up a little bit here. All right. I’m excited to hear from everybody. I hope everybody has enjoyed this episode of Pantsuit Politics. We are going to be sending more information about Minneapolis. We really want y’all to come. We want to sell out this hotel so we can all hang together and we don’t have any interlopers. We will be back in your ears on Friday, and until then, keep it nuanced, y’all.

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

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