From Measles to MAHA: The Politics of Crunchy Moms
From Home Birth to Vaccine Skeptic and Back Again
With the rise of "Make America Healthy Again" influencers, a measles outbreak, and a new wave of crunchy moms gaining power and influence in our politics - avoiding food dyes, getting fluoride out of our water, and yes, delaying vaccination - I wince a little with every headline and think, “There, but for the grace of God, go I.”
As a new mom, I tried to do all the “best” things (according to a crunchy rubric). I had a home birth, used cloth diapers, exclusively breastfed, was a baby wearer, made my own baby food, and didn’t vaccinate my babies...at first.
We talk on today’s episode about why we were drawn to crunchy motherhood. I have done a lot of soul-searching about this because I feel guilty that I endangered my kids and my community by delaying my kids’ vaccination. How could I have been so confidently wrong???? Looking back, I can see how I got there.
Just for fun, I searched “vaccines” on Amazon. Nineteen of the first 20 results are, at BEST, vaccine skeptical. They have titles like Unavoidably Unsafe and Anyone Who Tells You Vaccines Are Safe and Effective is Lying. There is one “baby medical school” book among the best sellers doing the work to teach us the science of immunity and how vaccines keep us healthy.
Looking at these, of course I thought there must be SOMETHING to all this "research." As I've gotten older, more financially secure, more rooted in my community, and gotten a little more chill about the "what's at stake" with every little thing about my kids, I have a little more grace for myself and for other people who slip down this rabbit hole. Because the slope is indeed slippery.
For what it’s worth, I try to pay it forward and do my part to put pro-vaccine words out into the world because a loving call-out made just enough space in my mind to keep asking questions and change.
I know that in our current political environment, it’s easy to think that everyone is so entrenched in their polarized point of view that there’s no way we can come back together. But, I changed. And I was pretty committed to my point of view. That gives me hope that other people can, too.
I am certain that you will all have a lot to add to this conversation. There’s so much more we could have covered. We’d love to hear your thoughts.
Oh, and because Sarah mentioned this, here’s a little treat to get us through:
-Maggie
Topics Discussed
“The Business of Being Born” and Home Birth
Childhood Vaccination and MAHA
Outside of Politics: Changing Schools
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Episode Resources
Pantsuit Politics Resources
Please email us at hello@pantsuitpoliticsshow.com if you need help finding your way around Substack.
Home Birth
The Business of Being Born (2008 | Abby Epstein and Ricki Lake)
Michel Odent (Wikipedia)
Vaccination
Reasons to Follow CDC's Recommended Immunization Schedule (CDC)
Smallpox, Inoculation, and the Revolutionary War (National Park Service)
Show Credits
Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.
Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.
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Episode Transcript
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Maggie Penton [00:00:09] And this is Maggie Penton.
Sarah [00:00:09] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. Beth is continuing her busy travel season and is in Florida today, so I'm joined by Maggie, our Director of Community Engagement. Maggie and I are both what some people may call former crunchy moms. I'm firmly in former, I think, at this point.
Maggie Penton [00:00:30] I think I'm pretty former, too.
Sarah [00:00:32] This is going to be like an oral history of Maggie and I's history as crunchy moms. We've been wanting to do this episode for a while, but with over 300 cases of measles in the United States and an epic amount of anti-vaccine sentiment, we thought now was the perfect opportunity for us to talk through all of this with you today. So we're going to talk about that. And Outside of Politics, Maggie is going to ask me for some advice, and we're going to walk through that.
Maggie Penton [00:01:08] Yes, am very excited. But also, since I'm here, if you are out there and you subscribed to our premium episodes on Patreon and have struggled to find your way to Substack for any reason-- I know that just learning a new platform is hard. People keep on asking us if we're going to be on Blue Sky, Sarah, and I keep on being like, I'm not learning anything new; I'm full. So, anyway, if that feels like you, but you miss Good Morning and More to Say and you need some one-on-one help, me and Alise are ready to hold your little hands and get you over there to Substack. I will personally come to your house and log into it on your computer for you. I actually did that for my sister last weekend. I saw her and I was like, here, let me just do it for you.
Sarah [00:01:50] Well, you could FaceTime people and screen share; you can do the whole thing.
Maggie Penton [00:01:55] So, anyway, just send us an email at Hello@pantsuitpoliticshow.com and Lisa and I will help you.
Sarah [00:02:02] I love it. All right. Next up, an oral history of mine and Maggie's journeys as crunchy moms. Maggie, the first thing we have to establish up front, which I would say was my entry point into this philosophy is that you and I both gave birth at home.
Maggie Penton [00:02:29] That's right. That's actually how I started listening to Pantsuit Politics. So the crunchy mom thing wasn't all bad because we talked about it on the podcast way at the beginning.
Sarah [00:02:39] Now, I did not give birth to Felix at home because there was a snowstorm and my midwife could not get to me. But I gave birth to both Griffin and Amos at my mother's house with a midwife and her assistant. But I got to tell you, that journey started way, way back. I was talking to a former college professor of mine. I confirmed all this. I had a professor, a religion professor in college, who assigned us all this reading about natural birth, specifically Michael Odent [sp], who is this French obstetrician who's seen as pioneering birth centers. The big thing that stuck in my mind is at the end of his career, he was basically like I'm not going to do this anymore cause men shouldn't be in the room, it should just be women when women are giving birth. Isn't that wild?
Maggie Penton [00:03:31] Really? That is wild. Good for him.
Sarah [00:03:33] Isn't that wild though that I had this religion professor assigning natural birth. And then my other professor who I was very, very close to, she had a very traumatic birth with her first child. And I think that really got to me. And so I was fully primed by the time The Business of Being Born came around. I was already pretty much very sympathetic.
Maggie Penton [00:04:06] One foot in.
Sarah [00:04:07] One foot in. Because I'd read all this stuff and I'd seen a lot of my friends have really terrible birth experiences. Just felt like they were hit by a truck and traumatized and didn't feel heard in the hospital. And so I was like, ugh, I don't want any of this.
Maggie Penton [00:04:25] My mom had four natural births in the hospital. Natural, unmedicated, whatever. And she was in that eighty’s mom, Lamaze, focal points, that kind of a thing. And so I grew up with that story, especially because I guess this is the thing. I was a big baby. I was like a nine pound baby.
Sarah [00:04:46] All of my children were nine pounds. Yes, I'm familiar.
Maggie Penton [00:04:49] Which is nice, healthy signs for a baby, by the way.
Sarah [00:04:51] It's what I tell people. When you give birth to a one month old, their stomachs are bigger. They sleep longer. It's worth it.
Maggie Penton [00:04:58] And so, anyways, I just grew up with all this where all these people were like, oh my God, I can't believe you gave birth to that baby. And so I think I kind of like came to some of my attitudes about birth, feeling like, okay, well, this is probably something I can do. And then I also watched The Business of Being Born, and it was years before I was even thinking about having a baby. And I was like, oh yeah, I'm going to do that. I'm going to have babies at home.
Sarah [00:05:25] I was born via C-section. My mother was like a Lamaze, a breast feeder, big kind of hippie approach to the rest of it. But the story was always that I wouldn't put my head down. I wanted to see where I was going and I wouldn't put my head down. So it was sort of my fault, was the narrative around my birth. The most fascinating part is when I was educating/persuading my mother and grandmother to come on board for this journey, specifically my mother, since it was going to happen at her house. When we're watching The Business of Being Born, they talk about how most babies are born at the end of the doctor shifts. Most C-sections happen at the end of a doctor shifts. And I was born at this end of the shift. You could see the realization kind of wash over my mom's face. Like, oh my gosh, what? And, look, if you don't know what documentary we're talking about, then you are not in your 30s or 40s or a millennial woman. Ricky Lake made a documentary called The Business of Being Born. all about her journey through natural birth. They follow these other women along with-- specifically home birth.
Maggie Penton [00:06:29] IN New York City, like, in apartments in New York City.
Sarah [00:06:32] Yeah, in apartments. Home birth, it was very, very popular. It was like the Super Size Me. I feel like those all came around at the same time.
Maggie Penton [00:06:40] Yeah, that's kind of how I got into it because on my notes it's like Netflix made me do it. It's like it started with Super Size Me and they were like you might like this documentary. I mean watch something about Joe the juicer and then we watch The Business of Being Born.
Sarah [00:06:53] the juicing one! Yes, there were juicing documentary. I forgot about that.
Maggie Penton [00:06:57] And then all of a sudden you're watching these things about how 9/11 was an inside job. And you're like, wait a second.
Sarah [00:07:05] It's so good. So I got pregnant when I was living in Washington D.C., and we kind of knew we wanted to move back to Paducah, weren't sure if it was going to work out in time- like the timeline. So I was at a birth center, which to me is the best case scenario if you have one nearby. It's all the medical support, but a very like supportive environment for an unmedicated birth, if that's what you want. Okay, so I was at a birth center, then we moved. I had to find a midwife in Kentucky where midwifery is illegal. Yeah. So I had to use back channels, some people who I knew. Looking back on it, I was like, wait a second, you told a story that it was like, oops, I had the baby at home. But now that I am older and thinking back on this, I don't think you, oops, I had the baby at home. I think that's what you just told the people not to get your person coach in trouble, who is actually your midwife. And so that's how I found my midwife who had done tons of births for the Amish and Mennonite community in Western Kentucky because they don't go to the hospital. They don't do it.
[00:08:08] So I think there was a sense from the local medical community who was very supportive of her. She had oxygen, she had an ultrasound machine, all this stuff that we might as well support you because they're not going to come to us. So let's have them some sort of support. So I remember doing all this research at the time and them saying your home birth midwife should have about 300 births under her belt before you use her. So she's seen everything. She's seen a prolapse cord, she's seen all the terrible things that can happen during childbirth. And I think Griffin was like literally-- if he wasn't her 300th birth, he was very, very close. But I had the classic scenario, like I was huge because he was huge. I started getting high blood pressure and she was like, look, here's the situation, I'm going to give you 24 hours to get this blood pressure down. Because she would come and see me at my home. The appointment situation with a home birth midwife is night and day better than a doctor situation, just for the record. Whatever you want from a birth, like there's just no debating. A woman coming to your house, asking about your diet and your stress level is a much better model of care than going to a doctor's office. Was yours like that?
Maggie Penton [00:09:19] Where you have 10 minutes. Yeah. She had an office.
Sarah [00:09:21] She would spend like an hour and a half with me every time.
Maggie Penton [00:09:25] Because it's not illegal to be a midwife in Florida. And so people also like--
Sarah [00:09:28] Not in Kentucky anymore. This one blessed woman advocated for probably 10 years and they are now getting licenses for certified nurse midwives.
Maggie Penton [00:09:37] Yeah, so I had a licensed midwife attend my birth. And so she had an office, and so I would go to her office. But, yeah, every appointment was an hour. And she could just tell things from my pee. She's like, hey, you need to drink more water. Hey, you need to do this. Hey, you're having these cramps. And she was an herbalist also. And so she just had such a deep knowledge of how to make my pregnancy more comfortable for me. I was really active because I was teaching taekwondo full time at the time. I was teaching a class up until I was like, about to go-- I think I was in labor. And I was like, "I think I should leave."
Sarah [00:10:21] Oh, my goodness. She was amazing. I always tell the story like after Amos's birth, she came to my house probably like the next day because she would come every day for like three or four days to my home as I was recovering and check on me for like an hour and a half. Again, much better standard of care than what you would receive in a standard doctor's office.
Maggie Penton [00:10:41] And so much less expensive.
Sarah [00:10:42] Yeah, the whole thing was like $1,600. It was insane. It was so cheap. And so she came, she looked at me, she sat down on the couch, she looked at me, she looked at my mom and she go
es, "Watch this, I'm going to make her cry without saying anything." And I burst into tears. And she was like, you're doing too much. You cannot maintain your level of activity with your first child once your second child gets here. If you keep this up, you're going to get mad postpartum depression, your breast milk's going to dry up and we're going to have a real situation. Is that what you want? And I'm like, no. And she's like, okay. Because I had to like taken Griffin to like story hour the next day or something truly dumb. And so she was like, that's enough. But she didn't say a word to me. She walked in the door, she saw me. It's like she felt my vibe and was like, okay, that's enough, we're not doing that. We're not going to do this anymore. I used to tell people at the time, like, I joked like if in the middle of labor if she'd been like go get a ladder, climb up off the roof and jump off, I'd been like, okay. She said to do it. I guess I'll go do it.
[00:11:47] But when my blood pressure was going up, she was like, I'm going to give you 24 hours. Don't eat any sugar, don't eat any salty. And I didn't. I ate raw fruits and vegetables and lean meats for about 24, 36 hours. And then I went into labor. I joked that Griffin was like, where are the cookies? I'm leaving. This sucks. This is bad. I don't like this. And she was worried about stuff because she knew he was big. She was worried about like shoulder dystocia. But my first birth was absolutely my best birth. He came out. I had him in probably about. 10 hours. I pushed for about 30. And he came out all in one piece. I did not deliver his head and then his body. He just came out all at once. And Nicholas said, "It's a baby." I said, "What was it supposed to be? I don't know why that's your reaction. What did you think it was going to be? A puppy?" But yeah, he came out and he would have probably been born in his amniotic sack, but she broke it. And I always pick on her because I was like, he could have been the Dalai Lama because he can't be the Dalai Lama unless you're born in your amniotic sack. But I look back on it now and I realize like I just had some physiological things in my body that contribute to easier, better births. I have a big torso, my water does not break until literally the baby is coming out, which is really nice, lots of cushion, everybody's turned the right way. Just lots of things I don't really have in control over that lined up in my favor. But you had a traumatic first birth, right?
Maggie Penton [00:13:15] Well, the baby was fine. The baby was fine, but I was not. So I had to go to the hospital because I needed stitches because my midwife was like I want you to be able to pee for the rest of your life. And I'm not a surgeon.
Sarah [00:13:35] Me, too.
Maggie Penton [00:13:35] Yeah, so I had to go to the hospital but then I got to the hospital and the doctor on call was so mean to me. She was like you think you're Angelina Jolie? She has a whole hospital and her whatever. Because I guess she'd had her babies in Africa. And she poked around and she was like, well, if you can't stand still, I'm going to sedate you. And I was like, are you going to just yell?
Sarah [00:14:02] You're kidding me.
Maggie Penton [00:14:03] She was so awful. The nurses were very nice.
Sarah [00:14:06] And that could have really further cemented your crunchy mom journey.
Maggie Penton [00:14:11] But it did. Well, because she was mean and, anyway, I got the care that I needed and the nurses were great, and they seemed kind of personally offended that I hadn't had my baby in their hospital. And there was this one lady who like in 30 seconds (she came in for the morning shift) was like here's everything you need to know about breastfeeding. And like just unscrewed my head, poured her knowledge in, closed it back up and sent me on my way. She was amazing. But the hospital experience was very like I don't want to be here.
Sarah [00:14:46] Yeah. I had been going to OB-GYN appointments under the guise of if I need a C-section, I have a backup. And I had been going to this doctor in town who is no longer working on the recommendation of my friends. I don't know why these friends had truly heinous experiences with this doctor. She would do stuff like cut cysts off people without any anesthesia, she nicked people's bladders during surgery, like, bad things. Not just sloppy, bad. And I remember I went in the next to the last, maybe I was like 38 weeks, I wasn't near 40-- and first of all, it was the only ever in my life exam I had that hurt. And I was like, what are you doing? Like what is that? And I am a person that I don't dilate until the baby comes. You kind of think in your head like I'll start going--
Maggie Penton [00:15:47] People like hang out at six inches.
Sarah [00:15:48] Yeah, you're going to start centimeters, like your centimeters-- that's not me.
Maggie Penton [00:15:51] Centimeters and inches are not the same. My apologies. I didn't mean that.
Sarah [00:15:55] And so I remember her saying, well, you're nothing. And if we don't see any movement by next week, we'll start inducing you. And I thought, you're not going to see me next week. I'm not coming back. And I never came back. And then the next time with Amos and Griffin, I had moved to another practice where the doctor, I didn't see him, they had a midwife on staff that would do your annual exams and stuff who I really liked. And the doctor on staff was from a country in South America and he was born at home. So I didn't tell the first doctor. The second doctor, I was like, I'm just going to be upfront with you; I'm going to have a home birth. I'm only here in case I need a C-section. Even though by that point, hilariously, I had another friend who was my actual backup who's the best surgeon in town and I had his actual cell phone number. So you have to do all these machinations. The worst we got treated is I went to the health department to get his birth certificate, and they like wanted me to prove he was real. And I'm like do you want me to pull up a picture of this child crowning? Because I can't if that's what you want to see today on a Tuesday. I can't do that for you. This is ridiculous. It was like I was like faking it. I had to jump through all these hoops for Amos and Griffin to get their birth certificates.
Maggie Penton [00:17:08] Okay. Again, much easier when the midwifery is legal, which again is a big part of that Business of Being Born documentary. So here's a question. Would you do it again?
Sarah [00:17:21] Absolutely. I wouldn't even hesitate.
Maggie Penton [00:17:23] If you were pregnant today. So that's something I think about sometimes. If the good Lord said it's time, you're having another one.
Sarah [00:17:33] A lot has changed. One, my midwife has retired. Two, they have midwives in our hospitals now, which is a massive change. So as old as I am, I probably would go to the hospital. Also, with Felix even, after two home births, being much older, being much confident, being two attorneys, they were trying to put an IV in my arm as he was crowning. And I said, "You have to stop. The baby is coming out. You can't be sticking a needle in me. I have enough going on. Please stop." And what's so funny is the nurse that was there, my friend Emily, and goes to my church, and she talks about, like, we knew who you were the second you got there. I had a rep. I had a rep for being a home birther. Now I was already seeing my obstetrician who just retired, who helped me when I lost a baby between Amos and Felix. And so I'd been going a bunch and she knew she was my backup and she didn't even make it. She didn't get there in time because it was so fast, but the head nurse delivered Felix. But I checked myself out against medical advice after five hours. Now there is a part of me that regrets that I did not stay a little bit longer because I do believe--
Maggie Penton [00:18:50] And let them feed you.
Sarah [00:18:51] Well, because Felix-- it's tough to say, there's some evidence either way, but I'm pretty sure Felix had had his stroke before he was born. I fell about a week and a half before Felix was born. And my other two were born like a little on their due date, almost exactly. And another thing like genetically we have in my family is the babies don't poop immediately, almost to the point where you're like they start to get worried, and then they poop. Well, Felix was born a week early and had meconium in his fluid. So I think that he was in distress. And there is a part of me that wonders if I'd been there-- because there was a pediatrician on call who is famous in our area. He's just a jerk, but he's very, very good. He was giving me crap because he was so big. He didn't want to let me leave because Felix was so big. But there is a part of me that thinks like if I'd stayed (he was really good and I think his red flags are going off) would he have picked up on the fact that Felix... But would they even have found that in a newborn? I don't know. And we still caught it really soon. But I think as far as like the crunchy mom part, see that's a whole other journey with my pediatrician that we have to get into as far as like the vaccine piece of puzzle.
Maggie Penton [00:20:04] Well, I think this is really good to kind of talk through, because I was thinking about it, and I was like, why was I so suspicious? And I was like, oh, it's because it started with my maternal care and feeling like the difference between how I felt with my midwife and the way I felt treated in the hospital, I didn't know what was going on in my body. And like when I said I felt I was concerned about things like where I was listened to versus where I was not. And it's like, well, if you're not going to be real with me and also like watching again, like you said, all of my friends, so many people had C-sections and I absolutely believe that everyone who has a C-section, by the time they're having a C-section, either they or their baby are in distress. I think by the time you get there, you absolutely need it. But I do wonder if like three months earlier, if we did things a little differently, you might not be in distress.
Sarah [00:21:09] Well, I remember in those Michael Odent readings back in college, they talked about when you're in a hospital, let's say the nurses change, and you go from like a really nice nurse to a really mean nurse, that puts you in fight or flight. Your body goes, well, I'm not safe now to have this baby. I need to be in an environment that I know everybody in the room because I'm going to be very vulnerable, and so is my baby. That's just like an evolutionary thing that happens. You're probably not even conscious of. So his argument was like no wonder the labor slows down. No wonder it stalls out. It's not an environment in which people feel heard, seen, or listened to. I don't like hospitals under any scenario. Let me be clear about that. Not because I don't like the people who work at hospitals. I have lots and lots of friends who are nurses and doctors. I think they're smart, capable, empathetic, and wonderful people. I just don't like hospitals.
Maggie Penton [00:21:57] And they're trying their best. Their goal is to keep you from dying.
Sarah [00:22:02] Except for the lady who kept trying to put an IV in my arm while I was crowning, I really didn't have a bad experience with Felix. Especially my friend Emily, she was great. But just the way it's set up== my midwife I'll never forget when I called her to interview her. And she's like a member of my family. She gets Christmas card every year. We're very close. She watches these kids grow up. And I remember calling her and like asking her all these questions because I was little law graduate Sarah. It's not that I could not assess the risk. I understood the risk. I didn't live an hour from the hospital. If we flew, I could be at the hospital in probably under three minutes.
Maggie Penton [00:22:40] When I needed to go to the hospital, it was a literally like a five minute drive.
Sarah [00:22:44] Yeah, I was under no impression that there was no risk. I understood the risk very clearly. To me, the argument was always there was no risk in the hospital. And that's not true either. There's always risk with birth. It really doesn't matter where you give birth. Not that it doesn't matter, but do you know what I'm saying? There's no place you can give birth that there is zero risk. Let's put it that way. So I remember interviewing her and asking her all these questions and peppering her with like, what about this, what about this? And finally she goes, "Honey, I'm not going to make you do anything. If you want do it, that's fine. But I'm not going to make you do anything." And it was just like the clouds opened, the angels sang, and I was like this is my lady. And that's how she treated me the whole time. I'm going to tell you clearly my concerns and then you can make the call because it's your body and it's your baby. It was a very supportive, incredible relationship. And I read some of these horror stories and I'm like, who are these midwives? Anne would be appalled at what these women were doing. These free birthing where there's nobody there. That's wild to me.
Maggie Penton [00:23:56] I would never do that.
Sarah [00:23:56] No, I would never do that. I probably could, my babies come so fast now, but she would come with an assistant. So if one of us is in distress, the other one was still cared for. Like I said, she had Pitocin to stop bleeding. She had oxygen. She just had a lot of medical support.
Maggie Penton [00:24:12] Yeah, my midwife also had oxygen and I needed it both times because apparently I just I get a little fainty after...
Sarah [00:24:19] Get a little fainty. I get cold. I just shivered, shivered, shivered. But especially with Griffin, I remember thinking I don't want this to feel like I just survived a war. And I didn't. I felt like I was on mood elevators. I felt amazing. It was the most wonderful introduction to motherhood. I just finished Dopamine Nation and she talks about pleasure and pain on the seesaw and how if you have pleasure, you got to have pain. The gremlins loud up on pain and how we have a cultural approach that there should never be pain, we should be comfortable all the time. And when I tell people, I'm like, this experience is something that's in my cells. The idea that pain has a purpose. When I was in a certain position, it was excruciating. And what we learned is that when I was in that position, Griffin's heart rate dropped. So, to me, it really put it in my cells that pain is communicative in a lot of ways-- not all the time. But like I learned that it ends, I learned that it has a purpose, I learned that I could get through it. My woman who used to do dry needling and my massage therapist now, she's like, I will do things to you that would send people off the table. So I think clearly I have a high pain tolerance. I'm also just not afraid of pain. And I don't know if I was like that before or if those experiences really put it in me, but I just know I can get through a lot. And it was a philosophical experience as much as a physiological experience.
Maggie Penton [00:25:53] Yeah, I think that too. I also felt very-- again, we're going to get to that crunchy mom part, but I did think it was a very empowering experience, because I remember calling my mom when I was on my way to the hospital and she thought I was going to die. And I was like I am absolutely not dying right now.
Sarah [00:26:12] Not going to die.
Maggie Penton [00:26:12] Excuse me, that is not on the table. And it's funny because talking back to my husband-- because I bled a lot, I'm sure it was very scary to everyone else. But I had zero doubt that I was going to be just fine. Like I'm sorry [crosstalk] I'm going to live.
Sarah [00:26:35] Eternal credit to my husband who is an Enneagram six and worst case scenario, but really never tried to talk me out of it. He was always like if this is what you want to do, this is what we'll do. Because I do have a lot of friends whose husbands were like, no, I can't do this. Like, it's too scary for me. And it can be really scary. And it's to a certain extent a lot of powerless experience to those who are around you. It's a powerless experience being in the middle of it sometimes. Your body's just doing what it's going to do. You don't feel like you have a lot of control over it. Let's just put it this way. I had very good experiences, particularly with Griffin, so it was an excellent gateway drug to further crunchy mom ideas. All right, so this is where our crunchy mom road separates a little bit. Because I did do all the vaccines.
Maggie Penton [00:27:32] I've done all the vaccines now, too.
Sarah [00:27:34] Yeah, but I did them on the Sears schedule. Dr. Sears.
Maggie Penton [00:27:39] He's another gateway drug.
Sarah [00:27:41] He is a gateway drug to the crunchy moms, for sure. So I got his little book, I read it, and I thought-- because it's so intoxicating the way he frames it. He's basically talking through the schedule in the lens of your individual baby, right? So why would your baby need the hep, whatever, when they're born when it's a sexually transmitted disease? And you're like, yeah, why would they? Well, it's because they're not worried about your baby's exposure. They're worried about when they can get everybody the easiest and reach that herd immunity. So there's no discussion of herd immunity in that book. It's all through the lens of your individual baby and when they might be exposed to these things and when does it really make sense to give them that. So Griffin did not get the vitamin K. He did not get the silver, the hep. He didn't do any of that. But that was all a piece of the-- and I don't regret any of that. Let me be clear, I don't. I did them all. I just did them on this alternative schedule because I was not working. So I could take them once a month. Because that was really what was most convincing to me. Like, why would I pile them on? Not because I was worried about some sort of effect of them getting more than one a day, but mainly just because I'm like I wouldn't want to get five shots as a three week old who doesn't understand what's happening to me. So if I can spread these out, why wouldn't I? So that's kind of where I went.
Maggie Penton [00:29:22] Yeah, I think that's where I also didn't-- because I wasn't in a hospital, we didn't do any of the silver or like vitamin K. Because I was like, well, they've just been born. They don't want to have something stuck in them. It sounded mean.
Sarah [00:29:42] Again, it's all individual. There's no concept of how does this work in a community? It's just all through your individual lens.
Maggie Penton [00:29:50] And also, lucky me, my baby didn't bleed and have any clotting problems. I think that I did have these like oral vitamin K drops.
Sarah [00:30:00] I think I did those, too. Oh my gosh, I forgot about that. Yeah, I did do those. So I did all the alternate schedule, which in the long run was a complete pain because I had to keep up with it. Like, where am I at? I remember having like an Evernote table where I was tracking all the time. And so if you're not good at that, you could definitely fall off track very quickly because it is hard to follow that alternate schedule.
Maggie Penton [00:30:34] Yeah. So I think what happened to me was all these people told me to do my research about vaccines before I vaccinated my kids. And I was like, okay.
Sarah [00:30:46] And I'm sure what they meant is that you go and get an immunology degree.
Maggie Penton [00:30:52] Like bless my sweetheart, it did not occur to me that they had not actually done any research when they told me this. Anyway, I remember the first pediatrician appointment, because when you have a home birth you got to get to the pediatrician like right away, and so there I was with my like one day old baby. And I don't think I said it quite so sincerely as like I need to think about this. Because I think if he had said we should just do this, I probably have been like, oh, okay. But he didn't. And I had found an office where I was like they're not pushy about vaccines because the people will talk. And so he just didn't ask me about it again. And I had a newborn baby who I was breastfeeding and I was working and I didn't have like maternity leave from the business that I owned. And I just didn't do the research.
Sarah [00:31:50] So you were like the first time I'm going to opt out. They never asked you again, so you just kept going?
Maggie Penton [00:31:58] Well, I did. And then I want to say like six months in I was like I should probably do some reading about this. And I read a book that I thought was like middle of the road that affirmed how I felt about it with the crunchiness and had a lot of home remedies and was like measles isn't that bad, polio's not that bad. And just why do we vaccinate for this? And when your child has measles, here's something you can do to comfort their skin and the itching and keep them calm and in a dark room.
Sarah [00:32:26] No, you're kidding.
Maggie Penton [00:32:27] I know. Bless my sweet heart. Anyway, but a lot of this stuff is not wrong for generally being sick. She's got this ginger tea recipe that I pull it out every time I'm sick.
Sarah [00:32:43] That's the problem. It's not all bad. That's how they get you.
Maggie Penton [00:32:47] Right. And then I just kind of like left it at that. And my kids were pretty healthy and I hung out with these other crunchy moms and they were so nice. And their kids were so sweet. And they were also into other things I thought were important, like, trying to avoid a lot of additives in the food. Thank you, RFK. Like all this RFK stuff.
Sarah [00:33:06] They hated GMO.
Maggie Penton [00:33:07] They hated the GMO. They also hated screen time, right?
Sarah [00:33:11] Yeah. I do think you and I got on the beginning, like even back to the home birth, I remember reading stories at a point thinking like, well, this got off the rails. People are getting hurt. Like with the free birthing and there was a demand, but maybe the midwives weren't properly trained. I remember even recently thinking like I don't know if I would tell a friend now to have a home birth. It's hard. I think I, again, was physiologically lucky. Stumbled upon a really wonderful midwife. If I had not found my midwife I don't think I would have just settled for anyone, but who knows? And was that like kind of a good time where that people weren't just continuing to push the browns. Because that's the thing with crunchy moms, it's just never good enough. It's like being a Baptist. You're never crunchy enough. The goalpost keeps moving and keeps moving. And I think I picked up on that pretty quickly, especially within the Facebook communities I was in. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa.
[00:34:09] Where they lost me was the co-sleeping till they're three. I'm like, friends, I cannot follow you here. I'm not going to wear them for a year and a half. It hurts my back. And I got another baby. I also am like I'm a really good breast feeder for the first six months. And then once they start eating solids or sleeping, my body's like, okay, we're good now, I'm out. I don't have a lot of supply. I don't leak. I don't feel let down when another baby cries. But it's just not a lot there. And so like, when I'm doing it every couple hours--
Maggie Penton [00:34:37] My nurses were [inaudible].
Sarah [00:34:39] No, mine were not. They were not wet nurses. And so there was already some stuff that I was kind of feeling like I'm not good enough. I'm not going to do-- I was already sensing this sense of like they move the goalpost. This is a community that moves the goalpost on you. It's never quite good enough. Whatever you're doing, there's always like a next level to reach.
Maggie Penton [00:35:00] Yeah, I can see that for sure. I'm going to give my dad a gold star on the podcast because most people were like, okay, well, just whatever you think is best. Like didn't want to rock the boat kind of a thing. And I remember this one time we were somewhere and I was like freaking out about like our rear-facing car seat because I feel oppressed by car seats. Can I confess that on the podcast?
Sarah [00:35:20] What do you mean? I love a car seat.
Maggie Penton [00:35:22] I love a car seat, but I also--
Sarah [00:35:24] I keep them rear-facing to the outer limits of the weight, like to the very last pound.
Maggie Penton [00:35:30] But also there's just a part of me that's couldn't we make cars differently so that the children could just sit in them?
Sarah [00:35:35] Lord, no.
Maggie Penton [00:35:36] This is why I feel oppressed.
Sarah [00:35:37] Have you seen people's trucks? The size of these trucks that are like semi-size that will wipe you out, doesn't really matter what you're in.
Maggie Penton [00:35:43] I think it's what it is. It's like when you have especially like a rear-facing car seat with a thing that hooks in and stuff, it's like they can only ride in your car. And if somebody else wants to give your kid a ride, you either have to let them just take your car or like have a degree in civil engineering to be able to reset it up. Like the one time I nearly came unhooked--
Sarah [00:36:06] And you have to go to the fire department. The fire department has to install your car seat, remember?
Maggie Penton [00:36:10] Exactly. Otherwise, you're not a great...
Sarah [00:36:11] Yeah, your bad mom.
Maggie Penton [00:36:13] Anyway, so I was like freaking out about the car seat and my dad was like-- and I was like, well, the American Association of Pediatrics says they should be rear-facing until they're 27 years old, which we should actually all probably be...
Sarah [00:36:26] I would love the rear face truck.
Maggie Penton [00:36:28] Yes, I would love to be rear-facing and in a five-point harness.
Sarah [00:36:30] Yeah, that'd be great.
Maggie Penton [00:36:31] Car manufacturers. In my self-driving car. But, anyway, my dad was like, well, the American Association of Pediatrics also recommends you get vaccinated. And I was like, I know, right?
Sarah [00:36:42] That's so good.
Maggie Penton [00:36:43] I know. It was so good.
Sarah [00:36:44] Gold star.
Maggie Penton [00:36:46] I was like [gasps].
Sarah [00:36:48] But he's right, was that the first hole in the wall?
Maggie Penton [00:36:51] Well, it was. Well, okay, so I had my middle of the road book that affirmed everything that I-- my middle of the road book.
Sarah [00:36:57] Well, and I should say, you said this the other day. You went to Amazon when we were talking about this, and you're like, if you Google right now vaccines, the only things that come up are anti-vaccine books.
Maggie Penton [00:37:06] Every single one of them. Every single one of them. And I will say that the books that I did read, she was like, look, if you get exposed to rabies, you will die. Get that vaccine.
Sarah [00:37:15] Okay, that's good.
Maggie Penton [00:37:15] She was also very big on the tetanus shot. She was like if you step on a needle or something, you do not win tetanus, you will die. It will hurt the whole time. Get a tetanus shot.
Sarah [00:37:25] I will hurt the whole time.
Maggie Penton [00:37:27] So for anybody out there...
Sarah [00:37:31] Credit where credit is due.
Maggie Penton [00:37:32] Credit is due. And so I was like, well-- because I had also bought this book by Paul Offit. He's written a bazillion books. This one was called Deadly Choices. And I was like, well, maybe I could just read it. And so I did. And it just explained the science of vaccines, like what you're saying, herd immunity. I actually never thought that vaccines cause autism.
Sarah [00:37:57] No, I didn't either. That was not a concern I would have.
Maggie Penton [00:38:00] I was just like but I don't like needles. I don't like getting shots. Measles isn't that bad. Maybe we should let their immune systems work and develop.
Sarah [00:38:09] Well, and I think there's a psychology that play when they're new babies, too. At least for me I had this situation that I could do it right all the time. I had this fresh start. Look at him. He just got here. You know what I mean? Like he's so unpolluted. You know what I mean? I haven't screwed anything up yet. So why the stakes feel so high, even though you get to like a 15 year old and you just want to tell people like, I cannot tell you how low those stakes are. I cannot tell you how low the baby wearing stakes are. Or even like baby led weaning and homemade-- I just want to go back to myself and be like it doesn't matter. I love that tweet that came out from the woman that was like, "My son just got a face tattoo, go ahead and bottle feed, it doesn't matter." Oh my God, I love it so much. I think about it all the time, it's so perfect. My first I was kind of like, oh right, I don't have to do this. I'm not going to be able to maintain this, like I said, zero tolerance.
[00:39:12] Which is tempting when they're new because you're like I am in fact starting with no mistakes. Look at this. And so I was at my friend Tasha's house and I knew Tasha of all my friends was like the big breast feeder. A lot of my friends did not breastfeed. Ace Bandages at the hospital, the whole situation. Wild. I say wild because I grew up with my mom who was a hardcore breast feeder. I didn't even know that was a thing you could do. I didn't even understand that was an option. So I go to Tasha's house and she just has these formula cans in her pantry. I'm like, why do you have this formula? I was like, I thought you were breastfeeding. She's like, for the babysitter. And I'm like, what? You can mix the two? And she's like, yeah, you didn't sign a contract. I'm like mind expanding. Mind expanding. Because I didn't [inaudible]. It was a pain. When I put a pump on my body, my boobs were like, haha, no.
Maggie Penton [00:40:12] Yeah, mine too.
Sarah [00:40:13] No, that's not baby. No, thank you. And so when she said that to me, I was like, oh, this changes everything. Okay, well, that makes a lot of sense and is very helpful. Because the standard was already in 2009 getting really high as far as sleeping with the baby, wearing the baby all the time, breastfeeding all the time. And I was like, I cannot do this. This is not for me. I'm tired and cranky. And so I was already like wishy-washy, probably according to some of the crunchy moms. And so she said that and I was like, oh well, okay. Let's talk about this now.
Maggie Penton [00:40:56] Yeah, I think that also, like, what does-- you use this phrase sometimes where you're like, you run out of road. Where it was like I realized at some point that I am trying to keep up. Because I was like a working mom and I was like I'm trying to keep up with these stay-at-home moms. And I just I was depressed. I was tired. I was like, my baby was healthy. But it's like, wait, my happiness is part of this. This has to work for us.
Sarah [00:41:25] Yes, 100%. Well, especially because I did sleep training, and that's a big no-no. Big, big no-no in the crunchy mom community. They will call you; they will tell you you’re torturing your child.
Maggie Penton [00:41:37] Yeah, well, I was probably like in that camp. I wouldn't have told you were torturing your child. I would have thought it in my head. But then I had another baby and it was like, well, this one has to go to sleep.
Sarah [00:41:49] Everybody's got to go to sleep.
Maggie Penton [00:41:51] Everybody has to sleep; I cannot do this. And so it was like, well, we have to do something. So we're just going to figure it out.
Sarah [00:42:01] Well, and Felix upended all my stuff. I don't think I did the alternative schedule with him at all because with this Pediatrician who I adored and who I was with for ten years, the truth is the reason I picked him because I remember him telling me I really do evidence-based care but he let me do an alternative schedule. He got in trouble a couple times because people were making choices that got him in trouble. Let's just put it that way. And he was very laissez-faire when Felix started showing one-handedness, way too young, like 10 months because of his stroke. Like, just pin his sleeve down and see if he'll use the other hand, like stuff like that. And I look back on it, and I moved to another pediatrician because I just thought, well, part of what happened is at the time Felix was on ADHD meds, which I regret. That's probably a whole other episode. But you have to get that prescription every 30 days, and he was undependable. And I switched. And now looking back like with our new pediatrician who is phenomenal.
[00:43:07] Because what I wanted was somebody who would listen to me. If there's a ADHD video game, my new pediatrician was like, I haven't heard about it, let's check it out. Like she's willing to try new things, but she also knows what she knows. It's hard to find that balance in my experience with physicians, that who will listen to you and admit that they don't know everything, but also stick to their guns on the science of which they do know. Because the truth is they don't have complete knowledge. And that was always my beef with how I got treated in the hospital, especially around birth. There was this undercurrent of like we know everything and you know nothing. And I'm like, you don't know everything. I'm not saying you know nothing. You know a lot more than I do. You went to medical school, but you don't know everything. You don't know everything about me. And so she is like gold standard.
[00:43:58] She's so good and amazing as far as helping me with that kind of stuff. It didn't take me a long time, but it was very hard for me when Felix needed an MRI. I can tear up. I just didn't want him under anesthesia. I can't explain it any other way. I hated the thought of him being under anesthesia that young. Called all my friends. Finally, my friend who's a vascular surgeon, he was like, enough. We don't know what kind of stroke it was. It could be a vascular malformation. He could drop dead on a basketball court. Just take him to get the MRI. And my friend who was an anesthesiologist was like it'll be the easiest case they have all day. And I'm like, okay. But they honored my concerns, but that's because I had personal relationships with these guys. What if you don't have personal relationships with physicians who will just see and honor your anxiety and go, I see you. I get it, enough.
Maggie Penton [00:44:52] That is honestly how I felt reading that book by Paul Offit. It was like, yeah, I absolutely understand your concern. Let me talk you through this. Let me talk you through why this happens. Because I do think there is like a little bit of a pendulum thing Where it's like most people aren't going to die of measles, but some people will.
Sarah [00:45:14] Some child did.
Maggie Penton [00:45:15] Right. A baby did die. And if you're the kind of person who's going to be okay from having the measles, you're probably the kind of person who's going to be fine from having the measles vaccine. And I was like that makes sense.
Sarah [00:45:28] Good point. You get in some certain spaces and they just explain the signs and you're like, oh. Like I didn't get the flu vaccine for years because my argument was always like, well, they never picked the right one and we don't get the flu. Again, always through my individual lens, until I finally read something that somebody was like, enough, it's not just about you. It's about everybody. And I was like, oh, I'm sorry. There has to be that balance of like I'll honor your expertise, but you have to honor my feelings and experience too. Don't treat me like I'm just stupid. Listen to what I'm concerned about.
Maggie Penton [00:46:04] Right. And that's where I get really, in retrospect, really frustrated with people like RFK. Jr., whose children are vaccinated, who himself is vaccinated. And he is the kind of person who could sit down in person with an immunologist who could talk him through the science and make him feel fine about it. He has access to people, resources, information, research to know better. And that's the other thing that the crunch mom-- oh, they're making money off your kids, the pharmaceutical companies or whatever. And it's like, no, they don't.
Sarah [00:46:43] Listen, I have a diabetic child. The conspiracy theory is that they have a cure, but they just want us to keep all paying for insulin. I'm like, friends.
Maggie Penton [00:46:51] But vaccines are cheap. They're so cheap. And then you don't get sick.
Sarah [00:46:56] I love a vaccine. They're like do you want this vaccine? I'm like, you don't even have to tell me what it's for. Sure. Because my theory is like, your body just needs like a little something to do or else it starts attacking itself. So I just like, well, yeah, put it through a little. Because let me tell you, the COVID vaccine when I was getting Moderna, it was really putting me through a little something. I don't get Moderna no more because it made me so sick for 24 hours. But, again, fine. It's probably not so bad for my body to be like, hey, I remember how to do this. I don't know.
Maggie Penton [00:47:30] That's where the crunchy is still there. Crunchy's still there.
Sarah [00:47:33] Listen, the truth is I'm not a crunchy mom, I'm a borderline Christian scientist. That's the truth. I'm just being honest. And it's not because of any religious-- it's because everything...
Maggie Penton [00:47:46] What do Christian scientists believe? I actually don't know.
Sarah [00:47:48] No hospitals, no doctors. Jean Harlow, the famous movie star, I wrote a report about her in high school, died because she was a Christian scientist. She had liver failure. My thing is, for me, I am exquisitely sensitive. I can't take ibuprofen, okay? This isn't once, recently I was taking a supplement and I stopped taking it and I had this weird itchiness that I had to have ChatGPT help me figure out and it was the dang supplement. I'm just exquisitely sensitive to basically every intervention. So my default is like if I can't avoid it, I will. Because it will never fix one simple thing. Now, I don't know why I don't feel that way about vaccines. Mainly because I've really never had a reaction. If I had a reaction, I'd probably feel different. To me, also the big piece of this that we missed is I've learned about Home Earth in college. I went to law school and my torts professor taught our torts class through the lens of medical error. So I spent a year studying medical error. Let me tell you, that'll really affect your views of hospitals and doctors. If you spend a year learning about all the things they got wrong and get wrong and how often they just are tired and mess up. And I'm not mad, that's humanity. Of course, that's going to happen. They're human beings.
Maggie Penton [00:49:07] And there's that selection bias also because if it gets to the [inaudible] because which is what I said about the Amazon thing, it's like nobody's written a best-selling book called A Thousand and One People Who Got the Measles Vaccine and Went on to Live a Healthy Life.
Sarah [00:49:20] There's all this confirmation bias, negativity bias. There's just all this psychological stuff that happens as you're trying to sort this out for yourself. And that's why I was like I don't know how we unspool some of this, or I guess spool it back up (I don't know whatever metaphor you want to use) because there has to be a component of it's not just about you. And in America, that's a hard sell because we want everything just to be about us. We're a very individualized society. And so I think that's the tough one. The tough one is just it's not just about you. That's why I started getting the flu and I read something plainly that was like, it's not just about you. And I was like, oh, I'm sorry. Okay, I'll get the flu vaccine. I'm sorry, my bad.
Maggie Penton [00:50:07] I remember, again, in my crunchy mom days they were like they were recommending chicken pox vaccines, mostly because people missed a lot of work because they had to stay home with their kids with the chicken pox. And I was like how dare you deprive a child of a terrible illness so that you can go to work?
Sarah [00:50:24] Listen, I got the scars. Deprive away. My forehead's covered in chicken pox scars.
Maggie Penton [00:50:27] My sister was hospitalized with the chicken pox. She was one of those people. I know it's bananas now. But also I'm at a point in my life where I'm like they need to go to school. Yes, give them the chicken pox. It's very inconvenient to stay home with a sick child. Every time there's a sick kid, I'm like, urgh!
Sarah [00:50:49] And there's already so many layers of this. There is a lot of, I think, sexism and the treatment of mothers when they express concerns. There is some sort of reclaiming of power I think through the vehicle of crunchy mom choices of like I can't change society, I can't be treated fairly, but I can do this. I can take my power back this way. I think there's a huge component of that. And there's just the modern parenting. Like I said, it's like being a Baptist. It's never good enough. You're never, ever good enough. There's always something else you can do, something you can eliminate, some product you can buy. I did all of it. Cloth diapering.
Maggie Penton [00:51:31] I did the cloth diapers too.
Sarah [00:51:33] I made all the food. I will say I don't regret the baby wet-leaning because I do think my kids eat everything. Like that's just the long and short of it.
Maggie Penton [00:51:45] You might just be lucky there because I did that and one of mine will eat anything and the other one she's like if it's not white she'll not eat it.
Sarah [00:51:53] I got three. Three seems like too many for luck. You know what I mean?
Maggie Penton [00:51:58] I don’t know. You could be.
Sarah [00:51:58] It's also because their father cooks and he's meaner than I am. That's probably the main component of it. He's like, I don't care. Eat it. So there's some of that I look back and I'm like, no, I'm glad I did that. I think in particular when they're biting it, they're less likely to choke than if you've cut it up. I have no science for this. See this is another crunchy mom stronghold. Besides things that are windpipe size, like hot dogs and grapes and stuff that size. And I don't really regret the cloth diapers. It wasn't that bad when they weren't eating solid foods. Probably saved a lot of money because I got them on deep discount at Surplus City. But I certainly don't regret breastfeeding. I loved breastfeeding. I do not regret home births. The alternative schedule, I don't think I was on any sort of alternative schedule by the time Felix came along. I was like, yeah, whatever. I can't keep up with this anymore. Because it wasn't really like a decision that I made. Again, I just drifted away from it. But you had to have made a decision at some point. Okay. So is it your dad then the book or did the book come first?
Maggie Penton [00:53:04] Well, it was my dad and then my daughter got really sick. She had a febrile seizure. It was terrifying. And I was holding her in my arms and I think that I had terrible insurance at the time and I was like, do I take her to the ER or do I wait until tomorrow and take her to the pediatrician? And then I was thinking to myself if this was vaccine preventable, I am going to really be upset with myself. And that's when I picked up the Paul Offit book that had been sitting on my shelf for forever. And was like I'm an idiot.
Sarah [00:53:38] But you know what's so wild? My pediatrician and I were talking about this the other day and she's like I'll have people their child will be like in a seizure or like in an emergency situation and they'll be like let me try this essential oil first. It's so entrenched in some people's minds like this is how you do it.
Maggie Penton [00:53:56] No, that was definitely a really awful day. And then I called and I was like, hey, how do we get started getting caught up in vaccines? And they thought that I wanted to talk about it. And I was like, no, just start jabbing them.
Sarah [00:54:15] Stick in them. Let's do it. That is a hard turn.
Maggie Penton [00:54:17] And he was like, really?
Sarah [00:54:18] That's so interesting because I had forgotten, Amos also had a febrile seizure. He was pretty old. He was like four, I think. He was pretty old to be having a febrile seizure. Then my grandmother tells me, oh yeah, your father had one at like 10. I'm like, I'm sorry, that would have been helpful information. Thanks so much. But it was a real crunchy mom moment for me. And it's amazing that it didn't like lock me in further. I was with the former pediatrician and this is a moment to his eternal credit that I do appreciate that I was under his care. So I noticed that Amos is-- something is weird. He's not shaking. He's his eyes are kind of back and I'm like what is happening? So I call the office and they're like you need to hang up and call 911. And I said, no, I'm not going to do that. I want to talk to him right now. I said, I'm not going to do that. Put him on the phone now. Because I really trusted him. Really trusted him. And he gets on the phone, he's like, I think you scared my nurses. Because I think he'd stop seizing. He did not seize very long, he'd stopped. And I'm like, okay, here's what happened. And he was like, here's the reality. If it's meningitis, you need to take him to the emergency room. Do you believe it's meningitis? And I'm like, no, he's no other symptoms. He's like then he probably just spiked it quickly.
[00:55:34] You can give him ibuprofen and aspirin. If you think he's not better by the morning, bring him in. Otherwise, you're okay. Gave him aspirin, ibuprofen, never had another one. If I'd taken him in, they'd done a spinal tap. I just appreciate it. Again, that's how they get you. Because he trusted me. Now maybe he shouldn't have. There's a sliding door moment here where my kid did have meningitis. But I appreciate that he was the only one who probably could have told me either way what to do in that moment because I really trusted him. You know what I mean? And it was very scary. I also had had a friend whose daughter had had multiple febrile seizures, had gone to Vanderbilt, all this terrible-- and it was just at the end they just tell you, no, she just gets febrile seizures. Fun fact, people who have febrile seizures tend to have higher IQs. So I think I had that in my head. She would have them for like five plus minutes. Long time.
Maggie Penton [00:56:30] Oh my goodness.
Sarah [00:56:31] And I had that experience in my head that like she had all these, they went all the way to the big hospital and all they tell you is, it's a febrile seizure. Congrats. There just wasn't much to do around. So I think it was a combination of that, trusting him and him telling me if his neck's not sore, if he wakes up and he starts talking to you and he has none of these other symptoms and you can bring it down with ibuprofen. Because it's the febrile seizure, it's not how high it goes, it's how quickly they spike. And so all those put together... But then I had a child with complex medical needs and who needs insulin. And so it's just what was I going to do? Try to cure it with essential oils.
Maggie Penton [00:57:11] Reality was going to come knocking.
Sarah [00:57:12] Reality came knocking on my door. I was going to cure that. And I have had people like suggest the alternative cures to diabetes. And it is all I can do not to punch them in the face, but I don't and I deserve a gold star.
Maggie Penton [00:57:22] You do deserve a gold star. We do not punch the people who suggest the alternative cures.
Sarah [00:57:24] Because the essential oil people will roll in your DMs if your kids gets diabetes. They will absolutely roll in your DMs and tell you--
Maggie Penton [00:57:30] Did they have diabetes themselves or did they just watch a documentary?
Sarah [00:57:34] No, but they think they can cure your kid's diabetes with essential oils.
Maggie Penton [00:57:38] Well, they'll probably worked on the documentary.
Sarah [00:57:41] Listen, here's the other moment that if I'd read this book at the wrong time, it'd have been really bad. Did you ever read Educated?
Maggie Penton [00:57:46] I didn't read Educated. That's Tara Westover book.
Sarah [00:57:49] It's wild. Every time you're like, no, they're going to die this time because they didn't go to the hospital. For sure, this is the one. Car wrecks, burning, crazy things happen to these family members. Never go to the hospital. They all live. Like her mother like basically was in this--
Maggie Penton [00:58:04] Living is not the same though as being in good health.
Sarah [00:58:06] Fair. Because her mother had this traumatic brain injury and just basically hung out in the dark for a year.
Maggie Penton [00:58:11] A year is a long time.
Sarah [00:58:12] It's a long time and she was never the same. But every time you're like no this is it. This is why I stayed up till 3 a.m. reading this book. And they're essential oil people. They own one of the big companies.
Maggie Penton [00:58:22] Really?
Sarah [00:58:22] Yes. And so I was like this is it. They're going to die this time. Nope, didn't die. I'm telling you it's a wild book what this family goes through and maintains on their treats with essential oils.
Maggie Penton [00:58:35] Well, it's funny, I'm reading a biography of George Washington right now. It's a real delight. He, fun fact, made everybody in the Continental Army get a smallpox inoculation and like that stuff was--
Sarah [00:58:48] That was messed up the way they did that.
Maggie Penton [00:58:50] That's no joke. But even made Martha Washington got vaccinated for smallpox. And got their rate of smallpox down to 1% in the Continental Army.
Sarah [00:59:04] Amazing.
Maggie Penton [00:59:04] But anyway, he also was very hesitant to go to doctors because 18th century doctors were just as likely to-- anyway, but he survived literally everything because he had smallpox, he had diphtheria, he had tuberculosis, he had like Literally everything. But that's why Steve fell out, because they treated it with mercury.
Sarah [00:59:25] Well, I think a lot of this too there's a part of me that thinks-- Nicholas and I were just talking about this. We talk about how we should treat civics in school. We talk about how we should teach better math. I agree with all that. What people are bad at is risk assessment. They're just really bad at it. We talked about this during COVID.
Maggie Penton [00:59:42] Teach them all how to play poker.
Sarah [00:59:43] Yeah, and I don't know if people are bad at it or if it's just basic human psychology, maybe we're not great at it. Evolutionary, the risks we were trying to assess were very different than what we're assessing in modern life. But he was talking about somebody was like I'm going to cut down every tree that could possibly fall on my house. And he was like, do you drive a car? Like what are you doing? And so I think there was a component, the other thing that kind of kept me going all the way in one, I just was too lazy and I was not going to do all the stuff that the crunchy moms wanted me to do. Two, my husband and I went to law school where there is a lot of risk assessment training. And there was a lot of times I think where Nicholas was like what are you talking about? That doesn't make any sense. He definitely kept me off that GMO bandwagon. He was like, "Sarah, everything is genetically modified. You're genetically modified." Or he talks about that all the time with processed food. He's like, when you chew it, you're processing it. What are you talking about? That's processing it.
Maggie Penton [01:00:45] My cousin has a PhD in chemistry. She's very smart. And she was like we need the GMOs or we'll all starve to death. There's too many people for us to not have GMOs. And I was like, okay.
Sarah [01:00:56] Okay. To my eternal credit, I did go to my friend who was a biochemist and asked her, like, what'd you do? And her thing was like-- this was another crunchy mom thing. I bought the super expensive baby mattress from England that was like natural fibers. I had a couple of them. I invested money in those because she was like that's worth it. But if their faces are inches from it, hours every night, they're full of plastics and all this stuff. And she was like and buy stuff secondhand. Like get as many hand-me-downs as you can. Everything that could possibly be in there has been washed out. Like sheets, so I bought all my sheets secondhand. I got tons of hand-me-down clothes because I was like that makes sense to me. They've already been washed out. So great. And this was not a crunchy mom. This was a biochemist. So I did at least check some experts on a couple things.
Maggie Penton [01:01:49] I think the thing that I have hung on to is I have always bought organic milk for my kids. We don't drink a lot of milk.
Sarah [01:01:58] We don't drink a lot of milk. I feel like it lasts longer.
Maggie Penton [01:02:00] It does. It tastes better also. Anyway, I feel like I'll buy like whatever Oreos. It obviously doesn't make a difference. It's just in my head. I just have to see and honor past crunchy Maggie.
Sarah [01:02:11] I'm trying to think what do I see and honor past crunchy Sarah? Like I said, like I would definitely have home births again if I was in the same situation.
Maggie Penton [01:02:20] And the same age. I think today I am probably too old.
Sarah [01:02:23] I am probably too old. I'm a geriatric pregnancy. God, why are we even talking about this, Maggie? This is terrible. We're not going to get pregnant. We're too old. Everything's dried up. So that I would definitely do again. I would do the cloth diapering again.
Maggie Penton [01:02:37] I think I would do the cloth. Well, I would do the cloth diapering because one of my kids has super sensitive skin and like even like Pampers would just break out in little rashes.
Sarah [01:02:44] Yeah, except for when they get that ammonia smell. That still haunts my dreams. I would probably do most of the baby food stuff I did. The blending of the baby food was unnecessary.
Maggie Penton [01:02:56] Homemade applesauce is delicious.
Sarah [01:02:58] Yeah. Avocados and bananas it's just easy. The crunchy mom stuff that aligned with ease of use, that's the stuff I really doubled down on. If you have cloth diapers, you don't ever have to go to the store in the middle of the night. You know what I mean? You always have some. That's always what I liked about breastfeeding. No cleaning, always there, always ready to go. So that kind of stuff I can still be on board with. Again, I don't think I have any of the concerns about like pollutants and toxicity, even though the science is probably arguably getting better on that than it even was. I did notice that Griffin would have nightmares if we ate candy from a set. So like an Easter set, a Christmas set, the kind of candy they put in like those gingerbread house sets. You know what I'm talking about? So not like M&M's, but like that stuff. If he ate that, he would have terrible nightmares. So there was like a couple of the like die things I connected that I probably-- but I'm a pretty natural food person. The person who got in my brain and settled in nice and comfortably is Michael Pollan. Eat food, mostly plants, not too much. So that person he lives rent-free in my heart right next to Tony Soprano and Jesus. You know what I mean? He's there. So that stuff I probably kept pretty close too. But not organic. I don't do organic. I couldn't get into that because I don't grocery shop and Nicholas is way too cheap to buy organic.
Maggie Penton [01:04:20] It's a lot cheaper. I think I read a nutritionist who was like, no, it's silly, get frozen fruit, get canned fruit. It's still got all of that nutrition. It's way better than your protein bar. And I was like, oh yeah, that makes sense.
Sarah [01:04:33] Well, to that, the nutrition crunchy mom crossover there's a Venn diagram there.
Maggie Penton [01:04:40] Yeah, I was deep in it. I think what I try to do now is I try to be real soft on all the things. Even with the last election, to hop into the politics, people were like what if Donald Trump actually did manipulate the election machines? I was like nope.
Sarah [01:05:01] Don't do it. Don't do it guys.
Maggie Penton [01:05:02] Not even going to entertain it because you just start walking down like-- is the slippery slope a fallacy? It's my real question; is it a fallacy?
Sarah [01:05:11] Well, the nutrition was harder for me because...
Maggie Penton [01:05:15] What you eat does matter.
Sarah [01:05:16] And that's what I would say. I shifted from listening to other people to I just listen to myself. I know my body very well at 43. I can figure things out. The ibuprofen thing it at least sent me to the emergency room once and probably had me down on my knees by a toilet for at least five to six times over the course of my 20s before I figured out what it was. And that was really just thanks to my mom going "Ibuprofen used to tear my stomach up." Because it would happen two to three days later and it was really hard to figure out what it was.
Maggie Penton [01:05:45] Yeah, that is hard.
Sarah [01:05:46] You know what I mean? And so, but now I'm just much better at figuring out. So it's not because I'm listening to somebody who tells me it's bad for me. I just know it makes me feel like crap. And so I don't do it anymore. So it's like a kind of a different thing. But the interesting crossover for all of this, I was just telling my therapist about this, with Felix and the diabetes is like because I am a millennial woman and have just spent an enormous amount of time thinking about what food does inside our bodies, I just had a foundation that Nicholas did not have when he got diabetes. You know what I mean? I had a real understanding of fat, protein and carbs. You know what I'm saying? Just cause again, I'm a 43 year old white woman in America. I have been fed this stuff for a long time. And so when he was first diagnosed, Nicholas would be like, I think we miss the carbs by two. And I'm like, I'm telling you that would not do this. You don't miss the carbs by five and shoot to 300. That's not a thing. I understand nutrition enough because of just the slow drip I've gotten over the course of my lifetime to know that that ain't it, babe. And so that was definitely-- well, and the big crossover nutrition life with crunchy moms was Whole30. I did Whole30 in like 2013 for the first time. That was like a behemoth in that space.
Maggie Penton [01:07:05] Do you know she's not a dietician?
Sarah [01:07:07] I believe it. Yeah.
Maggie Penton [01:07:11] It's not science.
Sarah [01:07:14] It's so hard, because some of it's helpful. Whole30 got me to stop eating dessert for breakfast, and that has made my life much better. You know what I mean? It's just better. I am less tired. I am less cranky. Much better when I stopped eating dessert for breakfast. And so that's where they get you, though. They get you just enough that you're like, well, that was helpful. What else can they teach me?
Maggie Penton [01:07:39] [Inaudible] that's enough!
Sarah [01:07:42] Yeah. Well, and I think it's the they. That's where they always lost me. They want this. They want that. I never really thought that OBG-- I understood why OBGYNs did the things they did. You know what I mean? I didn't think anybody was trying to hurt people.
Maggie Penton [01:08:00] I don't think the people who make medical school curriculum...
Sarah [01:08:04] Yeah.
Maggie Penton [01:08:04] The way we do that. Because I don't think anybody becomes a doctor because they want to give people unnecessary c-sections.
Sarah [01:08:11] No, that's the thing. I never kind of bought the profit model. Not that they're not. They make more money for the hospitals. That's just sort of an objective situation, but I never really bought any of that. I could see that this was just pressures and societal changes and changes inside the healthcare industry. I could see the influence. I never really thought it was like mean doctors. I never really blamed the professionals.
Maggie Penton [01:08:39] Yeah. No, I never thought it was mean doctors, but I did think I was getting better care from especially with the midwife. I thought I was getting better care, that actually cared about me and didn't feel-- I just felt a little bit less like a cog that was getting shuffled through.
Sarah [01:08:52] Yes, absolutely. Like my OBGYN I had at the end was incredibly caring when I lost the pregnancy. Like you couldn't ask for better care as far as understanding where I was coming from. Let me see an ultrasound whenever I wanted, talking me down when I was anxious, like all that kind of stuff. She was incredible. But when I was pregnant I was in there for like five minutes at a time every time. Again, my midwife would spend like an hour and a half with me. Like long time. What are you eating? Are you still drinking so much coffee? What about your soda? You're drinking a lot of soda? How are you doing this? Are you exercising? Are you walking? How are you sleeping? Like on and on and on and on and on.
Maggie Penton [01:09:30] Yeah, my midwife got me to do pelvic floor therapy before my second birth, because I was really nervous about going to the hospital again or something going wrong. And so we did that and it was amazing and super empowering and also saved me so much trouble.
Sarah [01:09:43] It's just hard. I don't know how you sort the good from the bad. It's a tough space, the crunchy mom space. It's tough because there's all these internal pressures and external pressures around parenting, around motherhood, around our bodies, around keeping our kids "safe". I think it is really hard to sort especially if you're a new mom and you're already feeling like scared and anxious. In the presence of any anxiety or fear, which there's always anxiety and fear around parenting, is fertile ground for some of these conspiracy theories. And that's the tough part. That's the tough nut to crack. Yes. But I know we have so many people in our audience that have been on this journey and still probably consider themselves crunchy moms. No judgment. I'm not mad at anybody who calls themselves a crunchy mom. We have some people in our audience who are like homeschoolers and talk about like homeschoolers who vaccinate, which is not not a Venn diagram that happens very often. And I definitely want to hear from them because I think that is such an interesting journey. So I can't wait to hear from all of you who've been on this journey along with Maggie and I and where you are now, what you see and honor about your crunchy mom self and what you've left behind, if anything. And up next, we're going to talk about what's on our mind Outside of Politics. All right, Maggie, what's on your mind Outside of Politics?
Maggie Penton [01:11:13] Okay, I'm excited I'm moving within my house. I'm not leaving Florida. Ron DeSantis can't get rid of me. But I am moving to another house in my town where I will have my very own workspace, my very own office with a door. I'm so excited. But I have a question for you about this. Because I am moving about-- like, my new house is within walking distance of an elementary school. A just fine elementary school. It's not the best, not the worst, probably about the same as far as quality of school as the one my kids go to now. So we're going to finish out this school year at the school they're at. Next year, my younger daughter will be in fourth grade and basically just my county in Florida elementary school goes through sixth grade. So she has fourth grade, fifth grade, sixth grade left. Should I keep taking her to the school that she's been at where she has all of her friends and knows the teachers and her big sister went, or should I go to the school that she could walk to every day?
Sarah [01:12:19] Okay, I have a couple of questions. So your older daughter is already in what grade?
Maggie Penton [01:12:24] She's in sixth grade, so she'll be in middle school next year.
Sarah [01:12:26] My question is, does the middle school they will go to include students from both elementary schools?
Maggie Penton [01:12:33] Yes.
Sarah [01:12:37] So that's a tough one. I literally was just talking about this yesterday that I think it is such an incredibly wonderful thing to go through K through 12 with people. Right. That's how I grew up. That's how Nicholas grew up. I was with these same people. They are the most economically and sociologically diverse group of people I hang out with. They're just a gift. I consider them like cousins. You know what I mean? We're not all best friends. We're not similar enough in a lot of ways, but if they needed anything for me, at any moment, I would do it. So I think it's really powerful. But I feel that way about my friends who were at the-- so in my town, it was Heath and Concord, everybody went to Heath Middle, everybody went to Heath High School. So we joined in middle school in sixth grade with our friends from Heath Elementary. And the truth is I feel pretty much the same way about my friends from Heath Elementary, even though we did not come together until sixth grade. Do you see what I'm saying?
Maggie Penton [01:13:35] Yeah, that's good.
Sarah [01:13:38] So let's assess something else here. How long is the pick-up and drop-off going to take?
Maggie Penton [01:13:44] I think that we've worked it out that it probably would be like 40 minutes a day for me.
Sarah [01:13:50] Oh no, switch her. That's all. I don't even have to think about it.
Maggie Penton [01:13:53] Well, ten minutes there, ten minutes back, ten minutes there, ten minutes back.
Sarah [01:13:55] No, 40 minutes every day, that's a no for me. I think you switch her where she can walk. Can she walk by herself?
Maggie Penton [01:14:01] I think that she would. Well, because this is why I'm like [inaudible] is that she's super shy. It's very funny because I went on a music field trip a couple weeks ago with my older daughter and the music teacher was like, how is it that you have one who talks to everyone and one who is silent?
Sarah [01:14:18] And she won't know anybody there from like the Tae Kwon Do school or church?
Maggie Penton [01:14:22] She'll know a couple of people. We know some people there. She would know at least three or four people.
Sarah [01:14:29] Okay. How does she feel about this?
Maggie Penton [01:14:32] She really goes back and forth.
Sarah [01:14:34] If she's going back and forth and it's 40 minutes and you know some people there and she can walk, I say move her. And she'll see her friends again in seventh grade and around town, I'm assuming.
Maggie Penton [01:14:46] Okay. And around town, right.
Sarah [01:14:47] It's not like she's not going to see these people anymore. And also I feel like actually she's going into fourth grade, right? Also fourth, fifth, sixth is a little bit different.
Maggie Penton [01:14:57] It is.
Sarah [01:14:59] It's like between elementary and middle. So it's kind of a good time.
Maggie Penton [01:15:02] Right. And then when she got to middle school, she would know kids from both places.
Sarah [01:15:05] Right, then she'd know both places. She'd know more people in middle school, which is actually the tougher transition. Yeah, I think you switch her. I think we settled it.
Maggie Penton [01:15:13] All right, well, that was easy. Thank you.
Sarah [01:15:15] Yeah, you're welcome. Anytime. See, I don't like to give advice per se when it's like an email. But if I can sit like this and ask more questions and investigate and figure out what's going on, because almost inevitably when someone sends a question, I'm like, this is not enough information. I can't make this call on this. I need to know the person. I need to have more information. But this I would do all day. Just tell people what to do, not a problem.
Maggie Penton [01:15:40] And I'll probably do it. Honestly.
Sarah [01:15:42] Easy-peasy. I think especially 40 minutes a day, that's way too much time. You know what you can get done in 40 minutes? Like three errands where I live. You know what I mean?
Maggie Penton [01:15:53] You can. Yes. Well, right now when Naomi is doing these after school clubs and I'm having to go twice because once to get one and then go the other way.
Sarah [01:16:00] That's the other thing. If she gets older, she wants to do stuff after school. She can just walk home. I remember Kristen from Raging Against the Minivan saying, like, the thing that saved her life is all her high schoolers could walk home. Can you imagine? Like, used to my kids could go to all their music lessons and they could all walk from elementary, middle, and high school, and then he moved. It was brutal. Because it was perfect. It was perfect. I love anything my kids can walk to.
Maggie Penton [01:16:26] Gives them that like independence.
Sarah [01:16:28] I think it's good for them. I also don't like acting as a chauffeur. Win-win all around.
Maggie Penton [01:16:33] Yes.
Sarah [01:16:34] All right, well, let me fix that for you. I can't wait to hear everyone's feedback on this episode. Friendly reminder before you send an email. This was our personal oral history. I hope we said enough. No judgment. I'm not even judging you if you don't vaccinate, to be honest with you. I think it's a tough one. It's not what I would do.
Maggie Penton [01:16:55] I was there!
Sarah [01:16:55] I was there. I would like you to walk through Maggie's reasoning about the herd immunity and everything, but I don't think you're a bad person. Again, I don't sort people that way. This is a tough subject. I know it brings up a lot of emotions for people. So know that Maggie and I love you no matter what you did. Looking forward to the conversation. We hope everybody has the best weekend available to you. We will be back in your ears on Tuesday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.
This. Episode. Is. Everything to me. I'm learning now I am a *former* crunchy mom lol. My 12 year old just got her first shots ever YES👏TER👏DAY👏
My husband is a pediatrician and has dealt with crunchy moms for his whole career. He gets them and has developed ways to get through to them when he can. But NOW, he's having a bigger issue with the new Manosphere/RFK Dads. It becomes a real macho man testosterone show down where they attempt to mansplain to my husband why they don't want to vaccinate, etc. Wild stuff.