ICE, Greenland, and Building From the Wreckage

How to build lasting coalitions in the wake of destruction

For the past year, I have maintained what I consider to be a modest equilibrium. After ten years, I understand Donald Trump and his administration’s playbook. While they’ve done things that have surprised me, the way they’ve commanded attention never has. So, people would tenderly ask how I was doing considering my work and I would momentarily be confused by the question.

After all, I’m tough. I’m a professional. I’ve got this.

Or had this.

These past few weeks I have felt a mild panic unlike anything I’ve felt in years. I cried on my walk with my husband. I picked a political fight with my dad. I spewed my frustrations in group texts. It was just too. much.

Not surprisingly, talking with Beth helped me put all of it in perspective. What I know about Donald Trump is still true. What I know about how we move forward is getting even clearer. Then, after we stopped recording, I read this little gift at the bottom of Leigh Ann Caldwell’s newsletter from Puck.

Another Republican strategist who works with House Republicans told me that even members in solidly red districts are seeing “softening” in their numbers—a sign that November’s midterms could be reminiscent of the blue wave in 2018, when Democrats picked up more than 40 House seats. “Alarm bells are going off,” another strategist said.

And I realized. I feel different because this is different and, if it’s getting to me, it’s getting to lots of people. AND, in a democracy, that matters. Maybe not as soon as I would like. Maybe not always in the ways I would like. But it does. -Sarah

Topics Discussed

• ICE Continues to Escalate in Minnesota

• Greenland, Davos, and the Rupturing of the International Order

• Outside of Politics: The Incoming Winter Storm

Episode Resources

Pantsuit Politics Resources

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ICE in Minnesota

• Mugshots, binder clip and Hells Angels feature in Trump’s one-year anniversary remarks (Reuters)

• 5% of People Detained By ICE Have Violent Convictions, 73% No Convictions (CATO Institute)

• Cuban Detainee in El Paso ICE Facility Died by Homicide, Autopsy Shows (The New York Times)

• After Renee Good Killing, Derisive Term for White Women Spreads on the Far Right (The New York Times)

• ICE detains five-year-old Minnesota boy arriving home, say school officials (The Guardian)

Greenland, Europe, and Davos

• The Voters Who Have Taken a U-Turn on Trump (The New York Times)

• Outgoing Dutch PM Mark Rutte Cycles Away After 14 Years In Office | Subscribe to Firstpost (YouTube)

• Silicon Valley elites could see 50% GDP growth while unemployment spikes, says Anthropic CEO Dario Amodei (New York Post)

• Opinion | How Trump Has Used the Presidency to Make at Least $1.4 Billion (The New York Times)

• Special Address by Mark Carney, Prime Minister of Canada | World Economic Forum Annual Meeting 2026 (YouTube)

• Rep. Sarah McBride: Our President’s Drunk History Take (The Bulwark)

Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:10] This is Beth Silvers. You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. Here is the situation. We have been freaking out all week, probably like you. So we’re just going to try to take today and think about what is broken and lost right now. And we’re also going to think about what can be built on the other side. How can we build something more stable? As we talk about Minnesota and ICE and Greenland, we’re asking ourselves how we cannot be jerks to our fellow Americans or to our fellow citizens of the world. And then Outside of Politics, we’re going to talk about the snow that’s predicted to pile up around large parts of country this weekend.

Sarah [00:00:50] Before we jump in, we’d like to ask for your help. We are going on our annual planning retreat in a few weeks, and our business, our industry, has experienced dramatic change over the past few years, and we’re really just trying to focus on you. We want to understand how you found us, how we can best serve you. And online servers are annoying, but we have made it so short, guys. It’s like one minute or less, and there are prizes to random participants in the survey. So the survey link is in the show notes. And if you have more to say, of course, please email us at Hello@pantsuitpoliticshow.com. We read every message and your thoughts are truly foundational to our work. So please click the link for the survey in the notes and thank you for taking it. Thank you for listening and thank for being in it with us in so many ways.

Beth [00:01:40] Let’s talk about ICE. Sarah, it’s a little bit hard for me to know where to start with ICE right now. We know that we have agents in Maine and we still have agents in Chicago, like throughout the country. It’s easy to zero in on Minnesota because of the intensity, because of the resilience of people in Minnesota, because of their commitment to getting that story out. Seeing agents go into Maine reminds me that this is not the beginning of the story or the end of it, that we’re somewhere in the middle. And so I’m trying to hold that in mind as I take in news from Minnesota.

Sarah [00:02:33] What is clear to me is that we are not detaining, deporting, vicious criminals. I don’t care about all the pictures he held up during that stupid press conference. Also, I would like to take a minute because sometimes it’s just so hard because you get caught in their framework. What I thought about after that press conference is, okay, fine, sure, some of these people that you have deported are criminals, maybe even violent criminals. But I think we’ve lost sight of how weird it is to have the president of the United States up there acting like a sheriff. That is not the highest and best use of your time or even our federal government. This has never been what a president brags about, except for maybe Osama Bin Laden, which I’ll give a pass to because that’s different. You know what I mean? You just forget he’s making this argument, but even if he was right, it was a dumb argument. That’s a dumb use of the president’s time and energy in an entire administration’s focus. That’s what state and local officials are for. They’re for law enforcement. Never have we seen a president stand up and crow so much about law enforcement. It’s weird.

Beth [00:04:12] If you didn’t see this press conference, the president of the United States went into the press briefing room for a very long time and held up a book of what he said were his accomplishments for his first year in office. And then sort of slowly flashed what were like mocked up Wild West wanted posters. Pretty clearly intended to telegraph that anyone who looks like this is a danger to you. And don’t worry, we’re getting the danger out. So you contrast that with the fact that in Minnesota on Tuesday, ICE detained a five-year-old. He just turned five. Liam Ramos, he’s in preschool. And he and his dad were taken from their driveway. This family has an open asylum case. They came to a port of entry just like they were supposed to. They filed the asylum case just like they were suppose to. They have a lawyer. They have no criminal history. There is no order of deportation. That is what is actually happening on the ground. And you’re right. It is so weird for the president to-- again, this felt like show-

running to me. He’s just producing a reality and what’s actually happening is so much darker and not what anyone wants. Even his produced reality is bizarre and dark in its way. And then what’s unfolding on the ground is even worse.

Sarah [00:05:51] Yeah, it’s definitely not criminals. They are definitely just hunting brown and black people. I really don’t think there’s any argument at this point. They went to court in Los Angeles to say we should be able to pull people over because of the color of their skin. And the Supreme Court went, yeah, you know what, you’re right. And there’s all these reporting in Minnesota that they’ll say why did you detain me? Oh, just because your accent’s different than mine? I mean, it is just blatant racism. They arrested this man from the Hmong community in front of his grandchildren. He did nothing. He was a citizen. They had to release him like an hour later. So they’re just, well, you’re not white. Again, I try not to be incendiary. I try to really not do the sky is falling because we’ve done it around this man for so long. But I don’t know how else to describe this. They are just driving around and saying, well, you don’t look white. There are no orders. Because my dad was like-- well, because I sent him the stat that the percentage of people they were detaining have no criminal records. And he’s like, well, they’re all criminals and they came here illegally. That’s not even true. That’s not even true anymore. Like they’re not even going after people who came here illegally. I read a story about a Cuban woman who was pulled away from her breastfeeding child. What is this madness? What is this? I don’t know how else to describe it except for racist taunting

Beth [00:07:25] I don’t think there is another way to describe it. And then on the other side of that racist hunting, a government that is incapable of handling the most mild-mannered criticism imaginable. The fact that this week grand jury subpoenas were issued to the governor, to the mayor of Minneapolis, to the Mayor of St. Paul, to Minnesota’s Attorney General, people who I have heard all of them saying, “We need to be calm. We need be peaceful. This is messed up. We want them to leave. What’s going on here is not right, but also don’t accelerate the violence.” And they’re being investigated for obstructing justice. Come on guys, it’s really dystopian and I’m running out of words to use to describe it. But I feel it so viscerally because you watch these videos and it looks like my neighborhood. It really brings home the message this can and will happen everywhere until Congress decides to stop it.

Sarah [00:08:33] The only thing that has kept me from full on panicking is everybody hates this. He has destroyed the coalition that put him in office. Young people, non-white voters. The New York Times has this great graphic that shows people U-turning from 2024 to 2026. People hate this. They do not want this. We’re going to have reduced population for the first time in our history as a country. There are not going to be enough people to do anything: pay taxes, build homes, the things people care about economically. I can’t do this anymore. I can’t do this their approach to the world whereas if you have ever even thought a liberal or progressive or democratic thought, then everything you say is fake news, misinformation, ridiculously wrong, and every bad thing that happened to you, you deserve. And also everything we do is perfect and good and light. And we never do think, say anything wrong. I cannot. It is making me lose my mind, aren’t we all tired? I said this to my dad, because my dad and I got into it about this week. And I said, I can’t do this anymore. We are all Americans. I am tired of fighting like this. I am tired of it. I don’t want to do this anymore. I don’t want to say because maybe you once thought a nice thought about Donald Trump, you are my enemy. I can’ t. I’m not doing it. This is the end of road where it’s just mass men in the street. Detaining preschoolers. What are we even doing?

Beth [00:10:41] I read that a Cuban immigrant died in El Paso in a nice facility and the federal government said it was a suicide and the county medical examiner in El Paso said it a homicide. And I think that this is how they’re just going to push us I hope towards the vision that you’re describing where we all go enough. Enough in every way.

Sarah [00:11:05] Stop lying to me.

Beth [00:11:06] Because I think everyone knows that just the words they’re using they’re not credible in any respect. They’re not even trying to be credible. They don’t wait long enough to find out if what they’re saying is true or not. It’s just a rush to the microphone. And I’ll tell you what, JD Vance is as responsible for this as anybody else, and I hope no one forgets that. I hope we remember every single day that JD Vance volunteers to tell us the official line, no matter how divorced it is from truth. No matter how unethical it is. I read that piece in the New York Times about how there are right-wing podcasters who use the acronym awful to describe Renee Good. Have you heard this?

Sarah [00:11:56] Yeah

Beth [00:11:58] Awful is affluent, white, female, liberal. Some people insert urban in there for the you. But I thought, “Do you want to write off the entirety of that category in your political movement in a democracy?” Affluent, white, female liberal. You want to just write everybody who could possibly fall under that umbrella off. I agree with you. What are we doing? Why are we doing this?

Sarah [00:12:29] The reason I think it’s worth like really, really settling to this and thinking carefully, I read about some AK-47 libertarian bro who was like if you hate liberals more than you hate the government, you’re not paying attention. And I thought, “I don’t hate the Government, but that dude and I are on the same side right now and I’m going to take it.” Because what I don’t want to do is what we have been doing for the last 15 years, which is somebody pieces together a coalition quickly of the growing group of Americans who are independent and don’t see everything through a partisan lens, and then wasting it like he has. I’m just like, okay, so how do we break out of this? Because we’re going to win in the midterms. Hopefully, we’re going to win the presidency. I don’t want to make the same mistakes Joe Biden did that said, okay, well everybody agrees with us so let’s go all the way this way. I’ve been thinking about this a lot through the lens of abolish ICE, even though that’s a pretty popular phrase right now with independence. But still I’m like, moderate, moderate, moderate. I want to build a lasting coalition. I am so tired of this swinging wildly back and forth that keeps us in this everything I do is right and everything you do is wrong. It’s exhausting. I’m so tired. So everybody’s so hungry for 2016. They’re tired of his bullshit and I sure as hell am. So I’m like, okay, so what does it mean to break the cycle?

Beth [00:14:06] And I think that it is-- despite my complete alignment with what you just said and my durable alignment, I’ve always been a squishy, moderate, center of the road person, but despite my compete alignment, I recognize what a difficult call to action that is in the midst of events that radicalize people. And I understand why. I have really been trying to just take a minute as awful as it feels and imagine when I am at a store, when I’m just at the library, when I’m out and about in my community, I try to imagine what if I could see ICE agents everywhere? What if 30 guys wearing masks and tactical gear were coming in here to use the bathroom while I’m shopping? Like what would that feel like in my body? And just that imagining, just those snippets of moments, I feel myself angry in a way that I don’t know if I’ve experienced before. I don’t know that our brains are up for this. They’re just overwhelming us emotionally. And that’s why I’m really looking for grounding forces in my life. Like I need some instruction in the pew at church on how to handle this. I need some wisdom from the elders around me. I need people to help me figure out how do I stay in the part of my brain that is about reconciliation and peace and a prospective vision. And I’m not living this every day.

Sarah [00:15:47] What I feel like I have learned through years of this, and even particularly in this very intense moment, is to look for guidance from immigrant communities. If we are in a nation of immigrants and we claim this proudly and we believe that this campaign is an assault on our American values, then I am very comfortable looking to immigrant communities and what I feel like I hear from them is not radicalization, not seek revenge, not we’re done forever with these people. It’s more, can you just leave us alone to pursue our American dream? Like, can you just stop? And then we can all go back to trying to build lives for our families. And so I’m fine. Fine. Let’s do that. Like, that is what I hear from immigrants. That’s what I hear from people who are so scared, scared on a level I will never understand. And so I am fine with saying I don’t see immigrant communities out there saying exact revenge. It’s not like this immigration policy is new. And we know that a lot of immigrants voted for Donald Trump in 2024. I’m trying to hold that and say, okay, well, they’re not my enemy forever. They have a right to follow their economic prosperity and whatever candidate they feel promises that. And I’m going to be there to say he didn’t deliver. So let’s focus in on that. Let’s focus on what does deliver and build that lasting. I want a lasting coalition. I am tired of the swings. And if that means focusing on-- which I believe it will, particularly because of what’s coming with AI-- this idea that I read today that like 40% of our GDP is spent by the top 20% of earners. No, that’s not going to work. I don’t like that. I want that to stop. I would like candidates who say this is un-American, this isn’t going to work. I think that would appeal to the awfuls and the immigrants and my beloved community member who’s out here saying he hates the government. Let’s get all everybody together and start rowing in the same direction. That’s what I want.

Beth [00:18:22] And I want that for the world as well. So why don’t we take a quick break and talk about the way that the president has behaved on the international stage this week. Let me just see if I can recap.

Sarah [00:18:47] No. It was tough enough the first time.

Beth [00:18:49] I’m going to try to make it short. So I think the thing to say is that the president of the United States escalated his Greenland threats, doubled and tripled down on them, threatened tariffs on our European allies who dared to send a few troops over to stand with Greenland. He sent and shared text messages at odd hours of the day and night to world leaders that sounded like they were written by an adolescent who’s really going through some things. And then he went to Davos and saw everybody in person and said, “Okay, I’m not going to use excessive force, calm down.” And then, he said, “Guess what? We have a tremendous concept of a deal that’s a framework for Greenland and the Arctic that will last to infinity and beyond.”

Sarah [00:19:39] What seemed to be the pivot point to me-- and I fell down this real rabbit hole. So I think I have a new crush. It seemed like he got in a closed-door meeting with NATO secretary general, Mark Rutte. And so then I was like who is this Mark Rutte fella? What is he doing? First of all, he’s very handsome. That’s irrelevant, but I’m taking it, okay? I’m going to take it for now. So he is the former prime minister of the Netherlands. Okay, and he was the prime minister for like 14 years. There’s an adorable picture of him leaving on his last day on his bicycle. We’ll put it in the show notes. Okay, but so, and I fell down this list. Here’s where I was like, well, isn’t that fascinating? So part of the reason he left at the end is because they had a childcare benefits scandal where people were defrauding the government and signing up for all these childcare services they didn’t need. Doesn’t that sound familiar?

Beth [00:20:39] Interesting.

Sarah [00:20:40] Isn’t that an interesting intersection? Just also helpful, the Netherlands that we all think is peaceful, beautiful, perfect, never had problems, same exact fraud scheme. Okay, anyway, but he is known-- like I think he worked in finance maybe first. But he has known as being very pragmatic, very focused on the outcome. So I don’t know what magic Mark Rutte had worked in that room. But he is my new favorite. He clearly got in the room and was like, hey friend, let’s just get some deals made. Because I don’t want them to like kiss his ass anymore, but I also don’t want to invade Greenland. So I feel like we found a really good middle ground here.

Beth [00:21:22] Well, on the ass kissing, isn’t he the one who the first text messages came out and he’s like, my dear Donald, wow, you did so great in Syria. You did so, so great in Syria. We probably should talk about Greenland.

Sarah [00:21:37] This is all embarrassing, but I like this guy. It’s all so embarrassing. I am filled with shame. So let me have handsome Mark Rutte is all I’m asking.

Beth [00:21:53] Yeah, I’m so embarrassed. The way that he behaved during his remarks. I think what I just want to make sure we all know since it seems like he doesn’t know or care to investigate anything. He’s the least curious human I’ve ever seen.

Sarah [00:22:07] So true.

Beth [00:22:08] It’s so upsetting to me to think about how many Canadians and Europeans have died alongside US soldiers in the world. So many Canadians and Europeans have died fundamentally for American security. It wasn’t complete generosity. Our interests are aligned. That’s what it means to be allies. But we led those coalitions. When he stands up there and says we get nothing, we do everything for everyone and we get nothing, that is just completely not the way that it works in the world. I think what is happening right now that is really important to take note of because in American media-- this is embarrassing to me too. I don’t even know how to say everything I’m feeling right now because I’m just so pissed at everyone. In American media we do this thing where we criticize Americans for being ignorant and entertaining ourselves to death. But then at the same time, when Trump does something insane like he has done the past week with Greenland, when he backs off from it, we go taco, haha! You never go through with your insane thing. We spent all week telling you it was insane, but now you didn’t go through it and we think you’re a chicken. This is so embarrassing. We have ruptured the international order this weekend. I don’t think it gets back.

[00:23:41] Even though he’s walked this back and the crisis is averted for us as Americans, there are videos of people in Greenland who have been making plans to sail across the ocean to flee their country because of their concern about an American invasion. I don’t think today that those folks are going, whew, everything’s cool now. We can have our stock prices go back up now, hooray. This is serious and it is lasting and whatever magic Mark Rutte is doing, and I agree with you, kudos to everyone who helped get this to some kind of resolution. You hear what Macron is saying, you hear what Carney is saying. Georgia Maloney is out there saying what do we have to storm McDonald’s to get the message through that this doesn’t work anymore? But they’re all saying this doesn’t work anymore and they’re right because they can’t live that way. It’s not a funny joke to them. It’s not Trump always chickens out. It’s like, my God, we have Russia in our continent invading Ukraine right now and no signs of stopping. We have China at our door being terrible but more reliable and predictable than you guys. This is a mess and it can’t be undone just because for another day someone has assuaged his ego.

Sarah [00:25:00] Well, I’m going to throw one more log on the fire and then I’m going to try to turn the heat down. I’m going to do both things because I can. I hadn’t even thought about this, but to the stock market of it all Nicholas was like, well, I’m sure he did this right before he called all his friends and said make sure and buy because the prices are about to go way up, because I’m going to tell everybody that I’m not going to storm Greenland and the stock-market will recover. So that’s how you make $1.4 billion in the first year of your presidency, which is really the only success he should have been touting. And that hour and a half press conference is in the first year of destroying the global order. He’s made a lot of money and so have a lot of other people. The thing that freaked me out that was said at Davos the most was the Anthropic CEO saying we could have 50 people with all the money decouple and just go, y’all are on your own. That really freaked me because that’s what he’s doing. All he’s building is impenetrable wealth for a small group of people. That’s the only successful thing he has achieved in this first year in office. Canadians should feel great. That Carney speech was incredible. And I think to the turning the heat down, this is what I think is worth pondering.

Clip: Mark Carney [00:26:22] We knew the story of the international rules-based order was partially false. That the strongest would exempt themselves when convenient. That trade rules were enforced asymmetrically. And we knew that international law applied with varying rigor depending on the identity of the accused or the victim. This fiction was useful.

Sarah [00:26:46] He’s right. And, look, I am loathe to say it. I’m saying it because I love the continent of Europe deeply. But some of Donald Trump’s critique is also right. Ukraine is a mess because Europe has no ability to help them and that’s changing. Germany’s arming up. I don’t know if that’s supposed to make us feel better or worse, but it is the truth. And it was always a fiction that created, yes, absolutely a stable global order, but it was little in a way because it was so asymmetrical. Now, do I love the fact that this new day comes with us fundamentally weaker? No, I don’t. I don’t love that. But Canada being stronger, Europe reaching out to India and building these alliances. Ultimately, I do believe that this more balanced foundation upon which global order can rest because I do think that I guess because I’m either naive or fundamentally optimistic, that this particular moment in American history will not last forever, and we will have a lot of rebuilding to do. But hopefully we’ll rebuild with a stronger Europe and a stronger South America and a strong Middle East Asia where people understand that this hegemony that we had, that the entire international order rested on was a little fragile. And we’ve learned a lot about America and its processes that were actually just norms that anybody could shake at any moment.

[00:28:44] And we don’t just have to learn and be despondent. We can learn and build something better the next time. And I do think something better than next time will rest on a stronger Europe. It is so easy to sit here as Americans and think they have it all figured out. They don’t. France is a mess. And I can say that because I love France. I’m about to go there next month. Their budget situation, they’re now like the new Italy. Italy’s actually got its act together, which is very encouraging. But there’s issues there. They really are. The European Union has not been the utopic promise. It still has promise. And I still think there is a future for the continent and for the European Union. But I want it stronger. I want all of us stronger. And I do think that when Carney said that, it was a fiction, it was useful fiction. Well, let’s build something useful the next time that’s not a fiction. That’d be great.

Beth [00:29:39] I have some alignment and some points of disagreement. I think most aspirations are fictions in some way, and that an aspiration is worthwhile even if it is a fiction. You could say that about the Constitution. You could say it about the United Nations. Everything we try to be better about is fragile and precarious and depends on people of good faith doing their best. And that’s why it’s so frustrating to be an American in the Trump presidency because you think, well, why doesn’t something prevent this? If it’s bad, shouldn’t we be able to stop it? And at the end of the day, no, because what’s aspirational is always pretty fragile. I hope that the vision you’re articulating of a more balanced global order comes to fruition. I hope that can happen without an arms race. I don’t love the idea of everybody just arming up more as their way to get to that more balanced global order. I think America has certainly done tremendous good in the world and also abused its power in the word. I don’t think as an American I’m in a very good position to evaluate that on a net basis. And I don’t think that’s the point. That’s what’s so frustrating to me. Our allies aren’t even asking us to do that. There’s so much pouring out of them right now where you can tell they’ve swallowed a lot from America over a long period of time and they still aren’t demanding anything of us. They’re still bending over backwards to just try to get us to be cool and not invade an island.

[00:31:28] I listened to Sarah McBride on the Bulwark podcast speaking right after Trump’s remarks at Davos. And she had just been on a Codell and said the Danish are willing to do anything. They were before all this started. They are our ally. They also don’t want Russia or China to take over Greenland. They are willing to give us whatever we think we need to prosper economically, whatever we need to militarily help defend the alliance. Everybody’s hands are open here except ours, and we just keep turning ours into fist. And I think fundamentally that’s what frustrates me. I don’t know how to say this because I am with you that I’m happy to put all my fists and all my weapons down. I’m not trying to shame anybody. I also am really living with the reality that a lot of Americans voted for Donald Trump. Not every Trump voter felt this, but a lot of Trump voters are with him because they wanted him to be a jerk to their fellow Americans.

[00:32:43] And last year was a parade of stories of people being like, oh my God, I’m shocked that he’s being a jerk to me now. I’m shocked that this is negatively affecting me when I thought he was just going to be a jerk to the people that I wanted him to be a jerk to. And year two is here’s what happens when a jerk has the nuclear codes. And I hope that something that can come of this, and I don’t want to turn into a jerk myself making this point. But I hope that what can come of this is we all agree like, hey, let’s not elect a jerk again. That’s not a qualification for this office. You can be strong and tough and a deal maker who serves the interest of your own country without being a jerk. We got a whole lot of people across the European Union and Canada showing that. People who put the interest of the group upfront alongside their own national interest. And I hope that we can revise our job description here a little bit as we come into a new set of elections.

Sarah [00:33:49] Well, and here’s the thing, because I think they have really effectively used the idea of Trump derangement syndrome and so you just hate everything about him. And I’m really trying to think of ways to combat that, diffuse it. And so, to me, I don’t even really need to talk about his personality. What this week showed me is that he is who he has always been. This is exactly how he operated with his own businesses. He was incredibly effective at commanding attention and branding, even if it ultimately came at the cost of his own businesses because he has no long-term strategy. He can only see about five feet in front of him. Which is why I’ve had passionate Trump supporters say, well, it’s whoever talked to him last. That is not a visionary. Donald Trump is not a visionary. He is a reactionary. He reacts. And that’s why he ran his own businesses into the ground because he has no long-term vision. All he does is react in the moment and command attention. And that is no way to run a real estate business, which is why he ended up a reality show star, and it’s no way to run a country. It’s certainly no way to run country that the entire international rules-based order depends on. Now, I don’t want an arms race, but I do think there is room for armament in Europe. I do. You have Russia right there. It cannot always be that it’s dependent on if Vladimir Putin can charm the president of the United States.

[00:35:46] And even if we don’t elect a jerk, the way this is dependent on the personal relationship between the president and Vladimir Putin would not give me comfort were I French, Italian, and certainly not if I was Finnish or Danish. So I think that there is room here for improvement. I’m not just really speaking as an American. I really am speaking as someone who loves the continent of Europe and wishes it the best and wants it to thrive and succeed. And so I think there’s room there. And I think as an answer to the strengthening of China, which it’s not a permanent condition, I think that they are making good choices around research. I think they are making good choices about green energy. I still fundamentally think an authoritarian government, especially one that is experiencing dramatic population loss, is dangerous and brittle. I think it is so easy, particularly because of the coverage of these types of moments, to be despondent. I had moments of despondency, let me be clear, this week. Where it’s like this is the way it’s always going to be. America sucks. Everybody else is getting it all right. And that’s just not true. It’s not ever true. I think he is a terrible president. And I don’t know how you don’t see the way that we are out at the whims of whether he slept good the night before. I don’t see how you don’t see that. I really don’t because it’s just so obvious. And also we’re talking about the entire globe. There’s a lot of factors here and it’s just so easy in a week like this to get Trump derangement syndrome and think we all rise and fall. And to a certain extent we do. And paradoxically, of course we don’t. I wish I wasn’t embarrassed by our president. I do. I really, really do. I would have liked to not had to think about this at all this week because it is. It’s shameful. And like you said, I just think we have to learn that lesson electorally and not let it become how we see America standing in the world for the rest of time.

Beth [00:38:19] I don’t think all is lost. I think something is lost and I think that’s the thing I’m just trying to hold everywhere because one of my main criticisms of the coverage is that it goes all is lost-- just kidding, nothing was. Stock market rebounded. He backed off, it’s fine. And it’s not fine. Something has been lost; something is broken here that is not going to heal back the same way. It will heal back. We will soldier on because that’s what people do. And there are a lot of grownups in the world who will do their very best to promote peace and prosperity for as many people as possible. But we broke something this week that I don’t know can be repaired. And we were in the process of breaking it for a long time.

Sarah [00:39:06] Yeah, that’s what I was going to say. With the invasion of Crimea, where was the international rules-based order then? That was not during the Trump presidency. That was during the Obama presidency. Same with the civil war in Syria. That’s what I think Carney’s speech it just really hit the right note for me. I really appreciated that it wasn’t like they were the good guys and now they’re bad. It was a fiction. It was if we felt like it and if the president had a good enough reason to. And if it politically worked. There was an enormous amount of persuasion even with Clinton and Bosnia. If it’s broken, which I agree with to a certain extent, I think that it was cracking, especially, I think Vladimir Putin has been putting enormous pressure on the international rules-based order for way before 2016. So if it was breaking and now it’s broken to the same domestic point I was making in the first segment, I want to build something back stronger. I want to think about how the next thing we build isn’t so dependent on if the president feels like it or not. And some of that is not just about the international rules-based order, it’s about that for decades we have been giving so much power to the president. And that’s because Congress needs to be uncapped. And I’m just going to keep tooting that horn. Because we all just focus on the presidency because our congressional members never change and they’re so safe and it doesn’t feel responsive to our wishes as voters at all. Sorry, I’m not going to bring everything back to that or America 250 all the time, just maybe most of the time.

Beth [00:40:57] But it is important because part of building back in a better, stronger, more peaceful, more equitable landscape is having regular people-- not just the Trumps and the Putins or the Ruttes or the Macron’s or whoever-- everyone being clear about what we are and are not willing to give on. If the posture of average Americans remains, we’re not doing anything for anybody else economically, militarily, philanthropically, or otherwise, then what we get is the strongest country wins always. And it’s getting tough out there. When Trump says no one could touch us if we did decide to go into Greenland, that’s just not true. That’s not true. And it definitely seems to me that it will become less true over the next five or 10 years. So I just think I want to take this lesson as an individual American voter and think through the times when I have been opposed to American military action that our allies have asked us for and think about when does it make sense for us to get involved and when does not? I want to think about USAID and all the soft power that we’ve exercised in the world. I want to think about sanctions and where we have put a stranglehold on countries to advance our policy, but in the long term, seen autocracy and dangerous regimes and terrorism thrive because of that strangle hold. There’s just a lot to contend with here. And I want to do that contention because I think it’s part of getting to that more positive vision that you describe that I hope is on the other side of this somewhere.

Sarah [00:42:56] I’m not the head of the UN or this stupid new Board of Peace situation, but I have an idea. Would you like to hear it?

Beth [00:43:02] I would.

Sarah [00:43:03] I think that militarily we are still really stuck in an early 20th century understanding of military power and a sort of might makes right. And might is important, but the nature of war has changed. And so, if I was to charge, and I’m not, I would sit down with Ursula and I would say, here’s my idea. Being a military powerhouse-- because some of this is just the luck of America geographically and population-wise. Geographically, maybe you will stay true, but population might not. I would say, okay, so we know we are going to need a much more complex portfolio of weapons and military strength. So we’re going to divide up the portfolio because Denmark is never going to have enough soldiers to protect Greenland. We got that, okay? But what Denmark might have is the absolute best technology. They’ve poured money and research and their best brains into a particular type of drone. And maybe France has decided, okay, we’re going to take this aspect of military. Maybe it’s AI, some component of AI. Let’s just divide up the portfolio and say you might not have soldiers, but we’re all seeing that it’s not going to just be about soldiers. Maybe it’s munitions manufacturing. Maybe it drone technology. Maybe it’s artificial intelligence weapons. And let’s just divide up the portfolio and say we’re locked in. Not because the president thinks that they want to keep NATO going. I’m not busting on NATO. It’s not what I’m saying. But it was personality dependent, even in World War II. So it needs to be let’s say like, no, I need your part of the portfolio. We’re in this together because we all hold a piece of the puzzle that says you will not invade Crimea because you know what comes on the other side of that, and not just if it’s politically popular in America.

Beth [00:45:32] I think that would be a great approach to not only defense, but also to a number of world problems. I think that is where we have tried to be on trade for a long time. And it would be great to get back to that instead of doing this tariff nonsense. And I wonder how many years and what steps it will require for the trust underlying that strategy to be possible.

Sarah [00:45:59] That’s when we’re going to have to not elect a jerk. That’s when it’s going to be personality dependent. The building back will take more Mark Ruttes and his bicycle.

Beth [00:46:08] Well, and I think to your point from the first segment, it will take multiple cycles of not electing a jerk.

Sarah [00:46:17] Yes, we cannot swing like this, guys. Everybody’s tired.

Beth [00:46:21] We have to make some longer term commitments as a nation to the world.

Sarah [00:46:25] The internet is hard enough on us. We cannot sustain this level of political change constantly. Not that and also be on TikTok. I just don’t think the brain can handle it. The human race needs a break. It needs some stability somewhere. That’s all I’m saying. I need some stability somewhere.

Beth [00:46:44] Both in the interest of giving the human brain a temporary break and the comfort of a structure of an episode that you’ve come to know and enjoy, we’re going to switch next to something Outside of Politics. I don’t know about you Sarah, but I plan to be bundled up at home this weekend. I just don’t think we’re going anywhere.

Sarah [00:47:14] It’s a monster storm, Beth. Monster.

Beth [00:47:17] We have the meteorology wars happening in this area in a big way, like so many competitions. How many inches do you think? How many feet do you think? Oh, you think feet, not inches? Tell me more.

Sarah [00:47:29] Well, it has been an interesting trend recently in my area of the state that we do have meteorologist influencers. I don’t know what else to call it. It makes sense with the media environment, I guess. Like first we had this-- we still have-- Bo Dotson. And I don’t know Bo’s career trajectory, but at some point it just became like we listen to Bo. But then Noah, who used to be on our local TV station as the meteorologist, but I don’t think is anymore. And Jennifer Rukavina, who was on the TV station, wasn’t and now is back. But they all perpetuate their own forecast on Facebook. It’s like their own pages, their own forecasts, they’re not linked to the television stations anymore. And you have all these different like meteorologist influencer. There’s a wild thing happening in meteorology’s careers over the last like five to 10 years, which is really not the point of the segment, but it is kind of fascinating.

Beth [00:48:27] Well, and I’m sure that people in the field would call us back to some of the DOGE changes from last year. Not entirely apolitical why the shakeup and experts.

Sarah [00:48:38] This was happening way before DOGE though in my neck of the woods. It’s been happening a long time where I live.

Beth [00:48:43] I think media company breakups too, just like the death of local media, there’s so many different factors going into that. But yes, I saw the Kentucky Sports Radio was going to host like a bunch of different meteorologists today to talk about their predictions and stuff. Like it’s bananas. So Chad did go to the grocery store this morning. Have you all made your grocery run?

Sarah [00:49:02] I went to the grocery store yesterday. Nicholas went on the day before that and I think he’s going to get in today because I keep remembering more baking things I need. I have a lot of baking planned. Because luckily we are far enough north that we are not in the freezing rain because people in Paducah still have a lotta PTSD from the ice storm of 2009. No? Yes? I don’t remember. It was right before we moved back. It was really bad. The power was out forever. That’s when-- who’s the guy from the weather channel? Jim Cantore. If Jim Cantore shows up, people really freak all the way out because he is like head meteorologist influencer over at the weather Channel. So luckily we’re just in a butt ton of snow part of the storm, but people are going to get like ice and rain. I thought I saw a good thing about like sleet versus freezing rain. That freezing rain is a glazed donut and sleet is a sprinkled donut, which I thought was very helpful. It’s like when they show you the taco fixings versus the taco. Tornado watch versus tornado warning. All the food metaphors really helped me understand the level of risk is what I’m saying.

Beth [00:50:09] I’m going to have to think through this donut situation a little bit more. But I do like a food metaphor.

Sarah [00:50:13] The glaze coats the power lines, coats tree limbs, tree limbs fall, and then it’s very dangerous. A sprinkle, it’s annoying and it sucks, but it’s not coating anything. You want a sprinkle, not a glaze. Not in real life, but when it comes to winter weather.

Beth [00:50:30] Okay, I got you. The predictions here have been in such a wide range that they’re not very useful to me, but I do think they’re starting to coalesce enough where we know that we’re just probably not going anywhere this weekend.

Sarah [00:50:41] Oh, no, I was supposed to go to Nashville and see Les Mis, that ain’t happening. We’re supposed to have a annual meeting at church. That ain’t happening. Nobody’s going anywhere. We’re supposed to get anywhere from like 12 to eight inches. Although, my weather app on my phone still says, I don’t know, 18 to 20 inches. And Nashville is supposed to have a truly bananas amount like 26 inches. What is even happening?

Beth [00:51:08] And it just has so many tentacles. My mom had surgery yesterday in Nashville and they’re working to try to get her discharged really fast so they can get home because they’re two hours from Nashville. They’re trying to get home before all of this goes down. It’s hard to think about all the ways that this-- like you kind of know the basics of disruption, but it’s a huge world of disruption for places like us in the Midwest and the South that the lower Midwest we’re just not prepared. We just don’t do this well. We don’t have [crosstalk].

Sarah [00:51:40] Although, we have been getting more and more snow I feel like over the last several years. Like big snows. My friends who work in a factory were talking about like your contract is if you’re there you have to stay. If the other people can’t get to you to relieve you, so they were getting like air mattresses and food for the people that are going to be on shift and I’m like, whoa, that sounds like it sucks. I’m just going to have snow cream. And even my kids are old enough. I do not anticipate them going to school next week, probably not for the entire week. But they’re big, they’re great. They don’t bother me. I can make them cook things. It’s great.

Beth [00:52:16] You just spoke something into the universe that I’m nervous about.

Sarah [00:52:19] Beth, our kids are not going to school next week. I’m just telling you right now. I just think you need to get right with it.

Beth [00:52:23] Just like in a number of dimensions.

Sarah [00:52:26] You need to get right with Jesus with that because it’s going to be so cold, it’s not going to melt. I’m sorry.

Beth [00:52:31] It’s going to be really cold.

Sarah [00:52:33] I’m sorry.

Beth [00:52:34] It’s really cold, I hope everybody stays safe and warm. I hope no one’s power goes out. That’s where it gets real.

Sarah [00:52:41] Yes. I did learn about that-- did you see Jamie Golden sharing the muffin tin stove where you can put tea lights in a muffin tin and like boil water and treat it like a stove top?

Beth [00:52:51] That’s a great idea.

Sarah [00:52:52] I didn’t even know that was a thing. That’s incredible.

Beth [00:52:54] I don’t want to need to do that.

Sarah [00:52:55] But listen, Jamie Golden’s been sharing all kinds of disaster preparedness stuff I hadn’t thought about. Like making sure your cars are parked facing out. I’m like, oh yeah, duh! Why have I never thought about that before?

Beth [00:53:07] I really don’t want to need to boil water on a muffin tin, but I am glad to know that now.

Sarah [00:53:11] You can if you need to, that’s all I’m saying. Do you have a fireplace?

Beth [00:53:19] We don’t.

Sarah [00:53:19] Oh, you don’t? Don’t you have a-- is it a gas fire?

Beth [00:53:23] It’s electric. It puts out very minimal heat. It’s just pretty.

Sarah [00:53:28] Oh, okay. I was like I’ve been to your house. I saw a fireplace.

Beth [00:53:32] It is not for warmth.

Sarah [00:53:34] Well, my fireplace is gas and it puts out warmth. Unfortunately, it’s in a two-story room. So, that’s super helpful because we had to get our heat replaced during a previous cold snap. I needed to basically sit in front of it to stay warm.

Beth [00:53:51] What we have that gives me some minimal comfort is batteries from our solar panels. So we can run for a little bit on those batteries. But when the roof is covered with snow, you’re not making more solar energy.

Sarah [00:54:04] That’s true. Well, it’s going to be fine. We’re going to stay warm. There’s hopefully not going to just be any freezing rain anywhere in the United States. Just lots of fluffy snow. We’ll have us a little snow party over the weekend with minimal disruption. Just going to put that manifesting right now. Actively manifesting.

Beth [00:54:24] We are so grateful that you made listening to us a part of your week. We’ll be back with you on Tuesday with another new episode. We’re going to talk more about corruption. That $1.4 billion number, just hang on to that; we’re going to come back around to it. Until then, we hope that you have the best, safest, warmest weekend available to you.

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

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