Inauguration Day, TikTok, and Senator Cory Booker

Discussion post for January 21, 2025

Donald Trump returned to office on January 20 in a ceremony held in the Capitol Rotunda. Sarah and Beth discuss his first day in office, his flurry of executive orders, and the TikTok ban and un-ban over the weekend. Then, Senator Cory Booker joins them to discuss what's giving him hope and how he thinks Senate Democrats can work effectively in this administration.

Topics Discussed:

• President Trump Takes Office

  • Inauguration

  • Executive Orders

  • TikTok

• Senator Cory Booker

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Episode Resources:

DONALD TRUMP RETURNS TO OFFICE

• President Donald Trump Second Inaugural Address (C-SPAN)

• Into the Woods Live- So Happy Prelude | Ever After (Billie Cast)

• Melania Trump’s boater-style hat, inaugural ball gowns and other key inauguration looks (CNN)

• Oath Keepers' Rhodes and Proud Boys' Tarrio released from prison after Trump Jan. 6 clemency (AP News)

SENATOR CORY BOOKER

• Stephen Miller, Channeling Trump, Has Built More Power Than Ever (The New York Times)

• “A Change is Gonna Come” written by Sam Cook, performed by Jac Ross via Instagram

• Street Fight (2005 IMDb)

Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:08] This is Beth Silvers. You're listening to Pantsuit Politics. It's day two of the second term of Donald Trump's presidency. There's a lot going on. We're going to talk about the executive orders. We're going to talk about the inauguration, the pardons, the vibe. And we hope that you feel a little bit clearer on what's happening at the end of this conversation.

Sarah [00:00:27] And we have a surprise for you. A treat as yesterday was difficult. At the end of the day we got to sit down with who I consider the chief purveyor of hope inside the Democratic Party, Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey. We spoke with him about what's giving him hope, what he sees as the path forward. And we're hoping that it will offer you some encouragement.

Beth [00:00:48] Our mission here is to keep you informed without feeling anxious and depressed. And, listen, we're going to need more than two episodes a week to do that. So we hope you'll join us on Substack if you haven't already for a bonus episode with both of us on Thursdays; as well as Sarah's Good Morning and my More to Say. We work very hard to do our homework, think critically, offer information, perspective and care there on Substack. The link to join us in the show notes.

[00:01:10] Music Interlude

Beth [00:01:17] It's been an active week so far and let's just go chronologically. Let's start with the inauguration.

Sarah [00:01:24] It's been an active week? It's Tuesday.

Beth [00:01:26] I know.

Sarah [00:01:27] It was an active Monday.

Beth [00:01:29] That's just how it's going to be. You know what I mean? I'm just trying to embrace the new reality. This is where we are.

Sarah [00:01:34] Okay.

Beth [00:01:34] I wanted to start by saying I like it in the Rotunda. I think that's a good move and that we should just do it that way.

Sarah [00:01:41] I'm opposed. No. It's such a historical event. I've been to an inauguration; it is such a special thing to witness. So if the weather allows, I like that Americans can come watch especially when we have this sort of feeling that there's this elite exclusion of Americans from our government. It's one of the last remaining events that you can just walk up and watch. It is incredibly special. I was at Barack Obama's first inauguration. Also, the Rotunda, which I've spent an enormous amount of time in as a Senate guide, it's not as big as you think it is. So I imagine it was mighty cramped in there.

Beth [00:02:23] Here's what I like about it. I think it's nice to remind us of those three co-equal branches of government. I really liked the way Senator Klobuchar kicked everything off. And having it inside the Capitol, I think was a reminder that Congress exists and is powerful, that this is the people's house. I know doing it in front of the Capitol also is supposed to convey that message that the president comes to the people's house. But I just thought having it inside made it all seem a little smaller in a way that's good. It's how I feel about the State of the Union, too. I think everything that makes the president's powers a little smaller is important even when we have a great president- but especially when we don't. Just to remind us all the president is limited in a variety of ways by the structure of our government. And everything that we can do to reinforce that to the public, I think has value.

Sarah [00:03:08] Well, I think it was particularly difficult to have it in the Rotunda this year from my perspective because I knew the January 6th pardons were coming. So we were on the same day going to be in this very special place because the Rotunda is not as big as you think it is, but it is exquisite and it is impactful and it is special. And it was heartbreaking to watch so many Americans deface it. And then to watch this very important transition of power take place in the Rotunda, knowing that the people who defaced that very place they were standing were going to get pardoned later in the day. It was tough. It was just tough.

Beth [00:03:50] And I think sometimes it's valuable to just be with the toughness of those things. That's what a lot of yesterday was like for me, just being with the toughness. I was listening to his speech after President Trump took the oath of office and thinking about how none of it was a surprise to me. We had heard all of these themes from him before. It was a real laundry list of priorities ranging from renaming things to ending birthright citizenship, like, the full spectrum of Trumpism on display. And I felt like it was important to just watch it and just be with the toughness of that. That he is elected. This is happening. This is the direction that we're going now. And I just kind of needed to just sit in that for a second.

Sarah [00:04:36] I got on our Substack chat about a third into the speech and said it's giving State of the Union. That's how it felt. It was low energy. It was boring to me personally because none of it was that much of a surprise and it had a real laundry list. I know that he articulated that we're failing and this is going to be the golden age of America. But there was not a grand vision. Of what that looked like. There was no mention of artificial intelligence. There was no mention of what the economy was going to look like except for winning. We're just going to be winning. We know that. We're going to be succeeding. We're going to be winning. How we're going to get there, little less clear. And I thought the renaming was so silly in the midst of that. Mountains and seas don't care what we call them. Those are big things. You make yourself small. Nit picking the names of things.

[00:05:32] I wasn't surprised by it. He's clearly brought it up. It's clearly on his mind. Panama Canal is on his mind. But I thought, so this isn't going to be any different. You're up here telling us we're going to have the Department of Governmental Efficiency and now we're going to spend millions of dollars reprinting maps so that they can say the Gulf of America instead of the Gulf of Mexico? Don't sound like a vision of government efficiency to me. With so much wind in his sails and a second chance, and people who are more prepared this time, I did expect a little bit more of a vision. Not one I would agree with, but a vision. And it just felt so small. It did. It just felt like notes list he'd been keeping of things on his mind over the last four years.

Beth [00:06:26] I read somewhere last week that his speech was going to focus on light and that light was going to be a real theme in everything connected to the inauguration. And at the time I thought, well, I'm interested to see what that looks like from him. But he just can't do it because there is no golden age of America to him without punishing people who he thinks messed up before. That's why he wants to change the name of Denali to McKinley because President Obama changed the name from McKinley to Denali. So everything is referential to people he doesn't like. And there isn't a vision in that. It does excite his people. I wonder how they're going to feel when they get a lot of what they want. What you're going to be mad about next. Who's going to have their thumb on your neck once you've really gone after all the people that you think deserve it? There was a flavor to me of the end of act one of Into the Woods. They sing this song like all the curses have been ended. The reverse is wiped away. All is tenderness and laughter. Everyone who deserved to will live a long and happy life. And they're dancing. And it feels really joyful the first time you see the show. But when you know the show, it looks really dark because you know how awful the second act is for these characters who are celebrating. So I just watched it through that lens thinking, I wonder what this is going to feel like in a few months for people who do find a vision in this, who do think a golden age of America is coming.

Sarah [00:08:07] Well, you can tell how strong the desire is to praise everything he does and everything is administration does by the way people were praising Melania Trump's outfit, which was the weirdest inauguration look I have ever seen in my whole life. Honestly, though, when you said at the beginning how you were trying to take it in, I thought, well, maybe I do understand Melania's look because it is a little bit like I'll see only what I need to see. I'll catch the glimpses. I'll see just enough so I don't fall over my own feet. But that's about all I want to take in from the second administration. What a weird, weird look, especially inside the rotunda. She didn't even take her coat off. It was so weird.

Beth [00:08:58] We read her memoir for our friend Chelsea Devantez's podcast. It was not a great use of time, except that we got to talk to Chelsea who we love. What it did help me think about in connection with this outfit is the way that she has a very tight story she tells herself about who she is and how she operates, and she thinks of herself as the most stylish person on the planet who is absolutely in control of every detail of everything connected to her.

Sarah [00:09:31] She's very detail-oriented, and she tells you that a lot.

Beth [00:09:34] Over and over. And so I looked at this outfit and thought, this is just another statement of control from her. She's just very clearly saying, I've put my armor on. I will do exactly what I want to do. It will be in line with this esthetic that I have worked very hard to cultivate. And the people who praise me for it will praise me. And the people who don't like me aren't worth my time anyway.

Sarah [00:10:02] And, look, I do think these moments are important before we get into the heavy lifting of the hundreds of executive orders. Because her hat went viral and of course Elon's salute, I guess, is what we're calling it, went viral. And I wanted to put those together-- that's what brought it to mind. It's because the first thing I wanted to ask you because you've read the big Elon Musk biography is what was that? Because I do not believe that Elon Musk is a Nazi. Do you think that Elon Musk is secretly a Nazi? I'm very confused. And so I'm wondering if it's just like what you just articulated about Melania. With the wind at their sails maybe not for him for but the people around him. It's just making everybody more of who they are. Maybe that's what we're seeing with the hat and the salute and his laundry list of revenge. You know what I mean?

Beth [00:11:00] I do. I think this is a really hard question. Because I think Elon Musk is different from what most of us mean when we use the word Nazi. And I really struggle with comparing anything to World War Two. I do think Elon Musk has views about superiority especially through technology. I do not think he has an inclusive worldview.

Sarah [00:11:26] Fair.

Beth [00:11:27] I also do not think Elon Musk is in control of himself the way that I think Melania is in control of herself.

Sarah [00:11:33] That's a good point. That's a good comparison by contrast. I totally agree with that.

Beth [00:11:38] And so I don't know what he intended to do. The only thing I know to say about him right now is that I think he's flying really close to the sun.

Sarah [00:11:45] Yes. Aren't they all, though? Aren't they all?

Beth [00:11:48] But I think he is particularly vulnerable, which is a weird thing to say about someone at the apex of power. But I do read him at the apex, and I think that he can only kind of go down from here. He did even say that out loud because perhaps I'm wrong. He just doesn't seem grounded in anything except his belief that technology can solve all problems. And that is not my worldview. And so I don't think he's on a good path. But, look, I do think it is important to talk about the vibes. I don't want to make too much of this, but I have been interested in discussing it with you. There was a moment in Marco Rubio's confirmation hearing where Senator Tammy Duckworth opened her remarks to him by sharing a story of her advocating to change Senate rules. She was pregnant at the time and she was asking to change the rules to bring her new baby onto the floor with her when she voted. And after that discussion, she was rolling her wheelchair off of the Senate floor and heard Marco Rubio calling her name and expressing his support for her and saying she absolutely had the right to vote and to bring her baby with her, and he would always be supportive of her on that. And it was a really nice moment. And he deflected with a joke.

Audio playback: Tammy Duckworth [00:13:05] And as someone who was new to the Senate, I was extremely grateful to you for that kindness.

Audio playback: Marco Rubio [00:13:10] I think what I exactly said is, what's the big deal? This place is already full of babies.

Beth [00:13:15] And, again, I don't want to make too much of it, but it really felt to me like a signal that anything that feels a little bit earnest, a little bit feminine, a little bit vulnerable, that has a spirit of unity around it, is just not going to be acceptable in this administration and I think that's what you're seeing in some of Mark Zuckerberg's recent remarks and the behavior of a lot of the people who are close to Trump right now.

Sarah [00:13:40] I was trying to work through why I do not feel the despair that so many feel with the beginning of the second Trump administration. And I think the inauguration and the executive orders put some pieces to gather for me, including what you just said. Which is I, in a way, (and I know this is hard to understand) was more fearful of the ineptitude and chaos of the first administration. The fact that he didn't want the job, that they were clearly surprised by their victory, that they were not staffed, that they had so many people who were working at cross-purposes or just not working at all, all of that really concerned me. And for better or for worse I think what I wrote in my journal is I prefer a prepared enemy at the end of the day. I understand, based on my life experiences, particularly in Washington, D.C., particularly living there during the George W Bush administration, an approach to government that is about making the rich richer. I understand approach to government that is about weakening your enemies and weakening the minority party and talking about them in feminized ways in that sort of masculine, overbearing approach.

[00:15:17] I don't know if it's because I have experience with it. I don't know if I just feel like that I get. I understand how to work with that. I understand how to analyze it and see it and oppose it and communicate about it to a certain extent better than I did the first Trump administration. So I've got experience with administrations who come in with less of a mandate than they think they have. And that was what was screaming to me so loudly yesterday, particularly in his speech and with the flurry of executive orders, is you are going to get so far out over your skis where most Americans are. Including with the boldness in pardoning everyone, with letting Enrique Torres, a dangerous person who was sentenced to 22 years in prison, to walk free while standing up on a podium talking about law and order. I don't think the universe always bends toward justice automatically, but I do believe in the law of most likely outcomes.

[00:16:26] Enrique Torres is not going to go live a life of peace and calm. He's going to wreak havoc. He's going to harm somebody else. And so just watching all this, I just thought, okay. Okay, I thought for a second maybe you were going to actually try to address some problems. That maybe a wrong clock is right twice a day and you're going to actually do something about government inefficiency and government spending. But no, we're just going to reprint maps with the Gulf of America. And you think Americans are going to sit by and think, yeah, you made promises, made promise is kept, my life is so much better. I don't think so.

Beth [00:17:03] My husband asked me what I thought about all the pardons that Biden did for Mark Milley and Anthony Fauci and the members of the January 6th Select Committee, and I said, "I think it was probably a great favor to Trump because he would have wasted an awful lot of time and resources and capital in pursuits that are not what people wanted when they voted for him." I think, of course, there's a small section of his constituency that loves all of that, but for the most part, that's not why people voted for him. And I think it probably did him a favor. And I don't know if it was the right thing for Biden to do or not. All I can say, honestly, is that I would have done it if I were him. I wouldn't have pardoned the family members. I wish he hadn't. But the rest of those folks, yeah, I probably would have put it on the table.

Sarah [00:17:43] Well, and it's not going to be a big enough favor. He still wrote an executive order instructing all these agencies under the assumption that the Biden administration broke laws to go find out what they did wrong. That's not going to bring prices down. That's not going to address inflation. That's not going to address the coming dramatic changes with artificial intelligence. It's not going to help our public school systems. It's not going to build more houses like. What is this going to fix that people are actually upset about? I heard very little articulation of that. I felt like it's all a very small vision from a very small man. Let me say this, though, I do think people want the articulation. They want the PR. They want America to be seen as winning. They want us going out there and being aggressive about the Panama Canal. They want to hear probably the words manifest destiny come out of an American president’s mouth. They want that, fine. They're going to get it. And he'll ride high on that for a little while. But those checks can only get cash for so long. But the articulation of how great we are will only take us so far. And then you're going to have to deliver. And I didn't hear much of that.

Beth [00:19:01] I think the other animating force right now are all of those people that were on the dais with him. Because he did not announce tariffs immediately.

Sarah [00:19:12] Now they're coming February 1st. But don't worry.

Beth [00:19:14] Sure they are. What he did on artificial intelligence was rescind all of Biden's executive orders related to artificial intelligence. I wonder why. I wonder why don't want any regulation of that space given who's funding all of the parties right now. He also declared an energy emergency, which is hilarious given that we are producing more energy domestically than we ever have. Yet though we have an energy emergency, there will be no new permitting or licensing for wind energy. So it's an emergency, but we're going to cut off a piece of how we could produce more energy. And I think all of this demonstrates that he has no idea what he's up against with these A.I. guys. Artificial intelligence, whatever else it is, whatever possibility it holds (and I believe there's a lot of possibility) it is a monster that will never cease its hunger around energy. The amount of energy needed to live the way these guys envision us living is astronomical. There is no way to do it without relying on nuclear energy and probably forms of nuclear energy that we haven't perfected yet. And he just doesn't have a clue I think what that requires and what it will require of him and what will unfold as a result. If we think social media has had a long tail with consequences, and I do, I don't think we've seen anything yet. And to take all the guardrails off without putting into the new ones, without having a new vision, as you said, I think is so unwise, historically disastrous.

Sarah [00:20:51] Well, and I do want to say that not just his base, but all of Americans articulated strong concerns with immigration and they did come out swinging. Stephen Miller has a vision. I believe that. And what's so frustrating is that it's in line with the Gaza deal. I believe that they played a part. I'm glad the administrations worked together. I think his election probably loosened some of the strictures so that people could come to the table, all these things. But there's just this frustration when you watch things already getting better, he comes in, does something dramatic and says, "I fixed it." Immigration, look, it was too high. It was higher than we've experienced in 100 years. And we're feeling the fallout from that, including with the Gulf of America and the nationalism that was throughout that speech. That's not just here. That's everywhere.

[00:21:52] You get a flood of immigrants historically and globally right now you see nationalism rise. Okay, but it's historically low right now. We do not have a flood. And he's going to go declare this emergency. He's going to do a lot of PR. He's good at that. He's good at garnering attention. And people are going to be like, see, he did it. And it's so frustrating. It's just like the economy. I think he will pump it so much, especially with crypto, that we could really see a crash that cost people a lot of money. And some of the stuff that I think is so silly, I know people see it as promises made, promises deliver. I know people have a lot of anxiety around gender. So when he stands up and says in the United States there are two genders, that makes people feel better. And it's just hard to see how far the feelings take him and when he has to actually deliver on some stuff. And in light of the fact that some things are already getting better anyway.

Beth [00:22:55] You mentioned that you feel calmer than a lot of people do right now. And I do, too. I think my motivation is a little bit different. I just can't think clearly when I'm spun up.

Sarah [00:23:07] Yeah, I don't know if I feel calmer. I just don't feel fearful. I understand. I don't like it. But I'm not in a panic. I do feel afraid. I feel afraid for the people these will affect. And I feel afraid particularly what you just articulated about artificial intelligence. There are lots of things I'm afraid of, but I don't think I feel that panic in the unknown because I understand there's not a lot of unknown with these guys at this point. Maybe that's what I'm trying to say.

Beth [00:23:35] I agree that there's not a lot of unknowns, so I'm trying to integrate the lessons that I've learned about him and them and this movement. And to just keep myself emotionally regulated so that I can think clearly. So my first and most pressing area of concern, which could tip into alarm and panic pretty easily, is about immigration. I don't think it is going to be good for America, for our national security, for our military recruitment, for our military retention, for the morale and health of our cities, and certainly for the people living in cities to have raids of these cities where people are quickly deported. So trying to pull that emotion back and think clearly, I was asking myself this morning, if I were a Democratic senator, what could I do? Because I don't want to sit around and just say awful, awful, awful. Give us a chance in the next election. What could I do now?

[00:24:36] And I think what we know about Trump is he does want to be popular. The most honest things he said in that inaugural address were about his legacy, what he wants for his legacy. He does want to be known as a unifier and as a peacemaker. He wants people to really, genuinely like him. And I think he even probably has a sense that Stephen Miller could get out of control really fast and jeopardize some of that for him. So if I were a Democratic senator, I don't know what the right answers are and there are no good ones. But I was just thinking is there a deal here? Could you go to him and say, you know what? What if we fast track a measure in Congress to pause all new immigration for two years? That way we can deal with the people who are here illegally now and we can have hearings and due process and investigations. And some of those people will be deported and some of them we should come up with a pathway to citizenship for. And that way you can keep the promises that you made on the trail. Trump talked about protecting the dreamers this time in his campaign. You can't do that if you're painting with the broad brush that Stephen Miller is talking about. So I don't know. That's not ideal in a lot of ways. That's a terrible thing. Pausing all immigration for two years would be terrible. But I wonder if it would be better than what's happening now or if there are other ways to approach him to try to get some concessions, make some progress. Just keep swinging.

Sarah [00:26:04] I can't decide how much he still sees himself as a deal maker with this mandate. I'm not sure how motivated he is to be seen-- he mentioned national unity in passing. But what he did I thought the Daily named as well this morning was that he tied himself up with the country. America is Trump and Trump is America. And so I do think that there is a role here, not necessarily with Democratic senators, but with the populists for targeted protest. He doesn't like it. It was very effective last time when there were protests in the airports, when he shut the no Muslims can come into the United States and all this stuff like that was effective. I think what I would like to see, not necessarily from Democratic senators, but from Democratic activists, progressive activists, is protest with an articulated ask. And that's why those worked. We want you to stop. That's why everybody came out. It wasn't really just activists, but the organizers.

[00:27:19] There's not just a lack of vision from Donald Trump. There's a lack of vision and opposition to Donald Trump. A vision that says this is the laws we want. This are the policies we want. It can't just be there's a problem and we hate it and everything in America sucks. That didn't work. And I think we will see it as we did the first time because immigration is clarifying in so many ways and there are specific asks. It will be hard. It was heartbreaking to watch those videos of people who were like 20 minutes away from their appointments to see them find out that they were shut down and they could not get in. That was heartbreaking. I don't think America wants to see itself that way, that people follow the rules. We want an orderly line. We just don't want people jumping the line. But those critical moments articulated and asked around those takes a lot of organizing. That's what we learn from the civil rights movement.

[00:28:20] We all know now Rosa Parks didn't just decide to sit down. She had been trained as an activist. There were people that were working and thinking about how this is going to go and particularly around immigration and other aspects of his laundry list. We're going to need that. We're going to think, okay, we can't just say no. It has to be this is what we think will help America. Because if this goes the way I think it is, people will be hungry for that. People will be hungry for people in power and activists and ordinary Americans to stand up and say, this is not what we wanted. We didn't care about the name of the Gulf of America or Mexico or whatever, and we certainly didn't want to be seen as the rest of the world as locking people out of the American dream. We believe in the American dream. And not just for people who were born here. So I think we're going to have a tough time. It's going to be a clarifying couple of years about what we think happens next. Because what I heard yesterday was that he doesn't have a plan.

Beth [00:29:21] I don't know what people want around immigration. I agree that people want it to be orderly. But I don't know what the majority of people want. I was looking at the birthright citizenship order this morning, which advocates for an interpretation of the Constitution under which not everyone born in the United States would become a citizen. It would depend on the status of the parents. And, of course, today you can find a meme a minute about how that defies the Constitution. It defies the Constitution as interpreted by a Supreme Court case. And we've seen what's happened with a number of things that rest on Supreme Court precedent. I don't know what the court will do, and I don't know what the American public would want. I just don't know. And so I'm going to be listening as these things become more part of the zeitgeist and people are discussing them. Because I truly am not sure how the vast majority of people, even in my own circles, would view this if they sat down and really looked at all of the circumstances and understood what the text of the Constitution says versus what the Supreme Court order says. I just don't know.

Sarah [00:30:35] When I talk to people in my life, the articulation is we don't want dangerous people in here. We don't want people breaking the law, but we also don't want to shut our borders. America is still a land of immigration. That's what I hear from even some of my most far right wing relatives and the people in my life. I hope that's true. I think we're going to find out. We're going to find out where America is on this because I do think he is finely attuned to that. I agree with you that he wants to be seen as uniting or at least powerful in a way that people respond to. I think what remains to be seen is how people are going to respond to the second Trump administration.

Beth [00:31:19] And who will influence what that response looks like. It might be worth spending a minute on TikTok given that that was the big story on Sunday and then Monday came. So yesterday Trump signed an executive order pausing enforcement of the TikTok law for 75 days.

Sarah [00:31:48] Which as upheld by the Supreme Court. Important other major development over the weekend.

Beth [00:31:53] Yes, that law that was passed by Congress, signed into law and upheld by the Supreme Court. That law that originated during the first Trump administration. The executive order says that all agencies relevant to the issue should conduct a review of the national security implications of TikTok and try to find a resolution that does not ban the app, but that addresses those concerns. Now, that is what has been happening for at least five years. I don't know what will happen here. I don't think the idea of Elon Musk buying TikTok is great for America.

Sarah [00:32:30] No.

Beth [00:32:32] But I think that Elon Musk buying TikTok is better for America than what's happening today. I think that where we have blown it in general is saying clearly to the public why TikTok has any concerns. I have concerns. If you listen to our show, you're probably pretty clear on this. I have concerns about all social media. I have concerns about data privacy with all social media. I look back and think, why would I have ever just handed over so much of myself to nameless, faceless apps? Why did I ever think that this made sense? But I didn't know what I didn't know, and none of us did and here we are. What I want to make sure that I say clearly because we see so much conversation among listeners about this is that for me the TikTok, which again is not a ban, it is a law saying it needs to be sold to an American company. Why I think that makes sense is because it is not about my private data or your private data. If lawmakers were concerned about our private data uniquely, then yes, I think that they would pass some laws that apply to all social media platforms and they should do that. I would like them to do that.

[00:33:48] I also understand that when the Chinese Communist Party wants our private data, they got a lot of ways they're willing to take it. They'll hack into anything. They'll steal it from anywhere. I understand that TikTok is not the only or even primary way that the Chinese government is spying on Americans. What I think TikTok is, it's the most powerful, sophisticated propaganda weapon ever created because it is a loop of information that constantly improves itself. The more TikTok understands about your behavior online, your collective behavior online, Americans behavior, what captivates us, what interests us, what we'll share, what gets a reaction from us, the more they understand that, then the more they can feed it with storylines that move us toward a worldview that they want us to have. It's very cold war powered by technology. And it's that push aspect rather than the pull of our data from TikTok. It's the push of ideas backed by the Chinese government that concerns me. And I do think that it's different when it's a foreign adversary versus an American company.

Sarah [00:35:00] Before we started this podcast, I worked as a social media consultant. So I have been on social media and thinking about social media for at least 10 years. Probably a little longer. When I think about TikTok and when I watch the fallout from Sunday's ban-- although it was a decision by TikTok to turn off TikTok. Plain and simple. And then it was a decision by TikTok to turn it back on and thank President Trump. Because the CEO of TikTok in a very cramped Rotunda with a really short guest list, got a prime seat. So I was thinking about the balloons. Remember the balloons that were most certainly from China and how that story, oddly, did not go viral and conspiracy laden on TikTok. But the drones, which were really just all of a sudden we were going to let drones fly at night so there are more drones in the sky went wildly conspiracy theory viral on TikTok. Isn't that interesting? They want us to think it doesn't work. They want us to think that democracy in our institutions, as articulated by our new president yesterday in his inauguration address, are captured and corrupt and do not work for the people because they want Americans and Chinese and the rest of the world to believe that democracy doesn't work. That our institutions are failures. And that cynicism is really where you should place all your chips.

[00:36:42] That is most certainly what my 15-year-old has learned online as an extremely online teenager. And so I think that's the first thing that I really try to keep front and center politically about social media. As somebody who's just been thinking about it and using it, I thought, TikTok has learned a lot and they are in control and they can push the messages. But they got a little over their skis. Because you cannot undo the impact of millions of people opening TikTok and it being broken. That will stay with them. That is a disruptive experience inside the app. A dramatic one. You know what I mean? To feel manipulated in that way, to know that they can just turn it off. That's just something that people don't understand. You don't own it. They don't owe anything to you. That's a really hard thing for people to put in your bare bones, especially if you make your money on social media. That's something they taught us all the time. You don't own these platforms. You don't you don't own your Facebook page. You don't own your Instagram page. You don't own it. That's why everybody tries to build an email list because you own that.

[00:37:57] And so as users in particular, if you've never been a social media business owner or worked in it in that aspect, just remember this doesn't belong to you. It never, ever did. And so, I do think that moment is powerful and I don't think that just goes away. The impact of the remark like put it in the visceral feeling of like this doesn't belong to you, you don't own this, I think is something that will be hard for TikTok to reel back in. And I think the other thing as we think about social media through all these different aspects, just as a user, it's just always changing. I'm frustrated that people can't see these billionaires who they hate and then get so defensive of TikTok. I'm like, guys, it's the same ecosystem. It's the same ecosystem. These billion dollar platforms and the owners who you hate and the reel that makes you laugh, it's all a part of the same universe. I know it's complicated and it's hard to think about, but they belong together. And so I have to remind myself when I get real psyched up about technology and particularly social media, that the way people use it is changing constantly. And something is big and dramatic as what happened on Sunday will just accelerate things.

[00:39:18] That's what we saw with Covid, right? When something disruptive happens, sometimes decelerates, but sometimes accelerates people's relationships. And for better or for worse, I do think people are falling out of love with social media. TikTok isn't even really social media as I define it. But you know what I mean? I just think what happened on Sunday and whatever happens with the Trump administration's enforcement of this law, you can't stop the train. The pandora's already out of the box. I thought when you're talking about Apex earlier, that's what I feel with our relationships with Instagram and Facebook and TikTok and Snapchat and all of it. I just feel like we're at the apex and we're coming down. And for better or for worse, I think the way they disrupted everybody's usage on Sunday will probably accelerate that.

Beth [00:40:14] What I want people to see about the way TikTok behaved on Sunday is that that's not how a business operates.

Sarah [00:40:20] Word. Also it's not a business or they'd sell it for lots of money.

Beth [00:40:23] It is not a business or they would sell it for lots of money. This is the point. TikTok has been in the red for years. And we live in this world where it can be enormously valuable without ever turning a profit. And I hope someday we'll learn that lesson, too. But right now, a normal company would have sold it for a lot of money. The value for Bytedance via the Chinese Communist Party is not the money. And that is a problem. And it's definitely not speech. You said it. We don't own what we put on social media. Our speech is always ours. This is just a tool. It's a tool the same way the microphone I'm speaking into now is a tool. Yes, it amplifies my voice, but it is not in and of itself speech. It is not speech.

[00:41:14] A normal business would also not put up a square thanking incoming President Trump for his help. That is not how businesses behave. We are better off with the people who are just purely transactional, where it's all about money because like you said at the beginning, at least we understand that. We know what motivates Bezos and Musk and Zuckerberg for sure- the least interesting of the bunch. I just think we get it with those guys. And so we can have strategies. We can make decisions. None of those decisions are easy. None of those strategies are obvious, but we can do it. This is something altogether different. And I hope that they did get out over their skis and they did lift the curtain enough for people who are calling themselves refugees, which I just beg you not to use that word in this context.

Sarah [00:42:03] If you watched that woman weep outside the immigration center because her appointment got canceled and feel comfortable calling yourself TikTok refugee, I would like to have a conversation.

Beth [00:42:12] I really hope that they have exposed enough for people to see this for what it is. And again, our government should have done a much better job making clear what this was a long time ago. But it is what it is. And I do hope that there will be some resolution here that stops this massive propaganda operation that continually improves itself.

Sarah [00:42:35] And I don't think the solution is like, well, then America gets half the money. I'm like, what? No.

Beth [00:42:39] No. It's not about the money.

Sarah [00:42:43] And, look, there is precedent. Yahoo! tried to buy Facebook and Mark Zuckerberg said no. And there are lots of startups that don't make money for a long time. I get that. But they also don't end up ballooning the way Google did. They're all just trying to chase Google's success, that it becomes this infrastructure. They all want to be infrastructure in a real way. They think AI is going to be infrastructure. You can hear the way they talk about it. They all want to be the next GE or Standard Oil. They want to become a commodity. But the commodity is not the platform. The commodity is our attention. And the way that Russia is dragging anchors and cutting lines in the Baltic Sea is because that commodity is an instrument of war. And our attention is now the commodity, which means our attention is now an instrument of war and we are absolutely in a cold war with both Russia and China. And we have to understand that. And I fear that the Trump administration's transactional, nationalistic view of the globe is very dangerous in this new reality.

Beth [00:44:06] Not to put too fine a point on it, but here's the difference between Zuckerberg not selling Facebook to Yahoo and what's happening with Bytedance. Zuckerberg kept Facebook because he believed that it was going to have enormous value for him in the future and saw a path there. Bytedance was being told you are going to lose the entire value of this asset or you can sell it and make a ton of money. And they were like, okay, we'll lose it. That is not how a business operates.

Sarah [00:44:34] Well, they playing chicken. They're playing chicken and he's sitting up there at the inauguration thinking I guess I won the game of chicken because I'm sitting behind the president. And we'll see. As far as I can tell, we're still a country of laws. The Supreme Court says this law stands. And the inevitable lawsuits that will say you must enforce this law. The law says this is what should happen. You don't get to change the law. You have to enforce it. We'll see how those go. This is also not an easy call within the Republican Party. There are many members of the Republican Party, including Tom Cotton, who feel very strongly that this law should go forward because TikTok is a danger, because it is. I don't like to agree with Tom Cotton any more than the next person, but he's right about this.

Beth [00:45:22] I can hear people talking back to the statement that we're still a country of laws. Donald Trump is president. He's pardoned the January 6th rioters. He wants to end birthright citizenship on and on and on. And I get it. All of this is going to be really challenging and there's going to be a lot of harm. Some things are not going to be okay on the other side of this administration. I try to think about us being a nation of laws like I think about baseball. You don't bat 1000. You don't even bat 500. And that's where we are right now, but we keep swinging. And one of the people who I am happy is there in Congress to keep swinging is New Jersey Senator Cory Booker. We were very delighted to have a few minutes with him near the end of the day yesterday to just check in on how he's feeling and what his message is for all of us. Senator Booker, we are so happy to have you here at Pantsuit Politics. You've been on our list for a long time of people that we really want to speak to. So thank you for spending a few minutes with us.

Senator Cory Booker [00:46:27] I'm really grateful to be on. I hope it's not our last time.

Beth [00:46:30] We do, too. We have some plans that we'd like to discuss with you. But first, I noticed that your social media posts today were very aligned with where we wanted to start, which is just what's the pep talk? What's the pep talk for people who are struggling as we enter a new administration?

Senator Cory Booker [00:46:47] Well, I'd lean heavily on our past. There have been horrific people who have been elected with missions to suppress women's electoral power. And the thought of suffrage to suppress the African-American vote. When Lincoln was assassinated and you had a real Confederate sympathizer and Johnson take the office, some of our greatest heroes didn't stop, didn't give up and facing far worse obstacles than we have today. And so when you look at people like Alice Paul or Frederick Douglass or Fannie Lou Hamer, you have no excuse but to summon the grit. And I just I'm a big believer that you're never defined by what happens, but by how you respond. And therefore, hope is the act of conviction that despair won't have the last word. And so now we all need to be voices of hope, voices of strength, voices of light in a tough time and never expect the world to be what you aren't embodying yourself.

Sarah [00:48:01] Well, we are struggling, and we've been talking a lot here at Pantsuit Politics with this incoming administration. We've used the word fog, cloud, a lack of transparency on a lot of levels, literally and figuratively, trying to distinguish what's attention getting hype, what's just mouthing off, what's PR, and what is something worth working with. What is something worth fighting? And that's hard enough from our seats at a podcast. You're in a position of power in the United States Senate. How do you start to pull those pieces out to say, okay, this is something we're going to work with, this is just to get attention, this is something we have to really, really fight. How do you do that?

Senator Cory Booker [00:48:51] So, first of all, I was up this morning really early and reading The New York Times and pushing out articles to my staff. And one of them I pushed out and I pulled the quote from the article, so I pushed the link to the article and I pulled out the quote that I wanted to read was that it was Stephen Miller's strategy to overwhelm people to [inaudible] with so much stuff from Panama and Greenland to executive orders, 100, 200 executive orders, so that you're so caught up reacting that you never are able to respond. And that's the distinction; is overwhelm you, just burden you with outrage and have so much stuff happening. Not a 24 hour news cycle, but he said? That he's doing that.? My God, how could he? It's opposed to being really thoughtful and discerning about the use of your energy in its most productive course. And so I will not respond to this idea that we're going to retake the Panama Canal. But I will respond to you trying to push your tax plan that would make a lot of the members on that stage when you got inaugurated that would take them being worth $100 billion to $120 billion while the working mom still doesn't have affordable childcare. While a kid who just graduated from college and got their first job in the digital economy can't afford health care.

[00:50:33] And so what I'm trying to tell my Senate colleagues on the Democratic side is don't focus on Trump. That's what he wants you to do. Stay like a laser focused on Americans and the fight to make every American safer, stronger and more prosperous. And let that be your vital battle line, not who you're fighting against, who you're fighting for. So, hey, like we did in the first time, Donald Trump came after people's health care and we all rallied together, focused like a laser beam and stopped him by one vote. And a lot of the other stuff we weren't able to stop. And so I hope what folks do is two things, because it really was generous of you to start with my social media and Instagram. I'm very thoughtful about it. And I would say half or more of my posts is all about these ideals of kindness and being there for each other and building connection and community and virtue.

[00:51:29] Why? Because the first thing I want to ask every one of your listeners to do is how are you helping others in a tough time where we are emotionally stressed and find a lot of the things we're seeing from a president that we wouldn't let babysit our kids? And it is difficult. So build community, build connection. Find ways to source and nurture and nourish spirit because you can do that. Today you can do that to somebody. Tell them to turn off MSNBC or CNN like that. But then the second thing we use our platforms for is try to inform, engage, activate others on issues that we know we can make a difference on or at least not be silent on. And so that's the discernment that I wish for everyone that's listening. I pray for your discernment in a difficult time because you can't fight every battle. You can't react to everything he does. It is a strategy on their part. And don't fall into that trap.

Sarah [00:52:30] How do you counsel us as we exercise that discernment to coalesce with others around what's worth standing your ground about, versus following our individual paths? I argued in our last episode that I really want to see in these confirmation hearings a quarterback for Senate Democrats who says this is the line of attack, just the one thing. We're going to leave lots of good things on the table because we want to focus people's attention on our message. And our message is often so big and for so many people that it's really diffuse. So I'm just interested in how you think about that individual discernment versus group discernment.

Senator Cory Booker [00:53:09] And we're talking about that actively. I was blessed to rise into leadership in the Senate and now to talk to them about strategic communications in my caucus. And that's exactly what I'm saying, which is I showed them actually some video of how coordinated they are. They've taken down Democratic nominated judges before because of finding the attacks and going after them. They were all preaching out of the same playbook. Many people that listen to you probably watched the Ketanji Brown Jackson hearings. They came out to her in despicable ways, saying that she was somehow soft on certain types of offenders. And the person to a person kept pushing that line of attack, hoping that they could chip off a moderate dem. So I agree with you. And we're doing a better job of talking about that now in caucus about some of these hearings. I think some of the Hegseth national defense-- that he would be the head of the secretary of defense, head of our armed services. You saw that. People kind of going at him for being unqualified and almost insulting to the rank and file leadership of the military.

[00:54:20] So I'm hoping we get better at that. But I think in many ways, Democrats are building that muscle because we are used to being individual actors without an eye towards coordinating in a way and sort of joining the power. I tell people that coalition politics is what gives us strength. The civil rights movement wasn't black people just getting together and winning battles. It was as Jesse Jackson would call it, a rainbow coalition of people. And I say this to Democratic activists all the time. If you agree with everything that everybody in your coalition thinks about, then your coalition is too small. Because we've got to start learning to ally with people that don't align with us on every single issue. And I find that funny when I get yelled at sometimes by protester sometimes, where somebody says to me, "You're amazing on all these issues. Why do you disagree with me on these issues?" And I'm like, that's such a great thing. Look, fine, yell at me; but let's continue to stay strong on health care, on lowering prescription drug costs, on fighting against gun violence in our schools, etc.

Sarah [00:55:29] I really loved how you used the word discernment. And something that I am focusing a lot of discernment on and something we're talking about with our community and between the two of us is America's desire for change. They want this disruption clearly. They want these change agents. And holding the incoming administration to account for now being in charge, for better or for worse. Okay. Well, you've got the steering wheel. Let's see where you take this change, these promises made, promises kept flying. So how do you, again, especially inside of a coalition, communicate that to the voting public? We also want change, but this is worth protecting. How do you walk that line in your communication strategies? When we're building community, we're inside a coalition ourselves, but you have this desire for such disruption and change.

Senator Cory Booker [00:56:25] Right now it's tough because you said that he is president of the United States, that he's promised change. And so one of the things that we all want to do, and I've talked to a lot of my colleagues about this, is continually holding up the question. Donald Trump said in his inaugural address, I'm going to lower your cost, lower your fuel cost, your grocery costs. I'm going to crash the levels of inflation. He's just been so many promises about making things more affordable. Let's hold him to that. And when he shows us his hypocrisy, again, his tax plan is the last one. Overwhelmingly, the benefits went to the richest 1% of our country. And I'm not one of these people that's against folks being rich, risking capital, getting a reward for that. But our tax code right now already has all of these advantages for the wealthiest. But Donald Trump is doubling down on them, expanding holes in our deficits that are putting more pressure on middle class families. And telling that story over and over again is hypocrisy. He promised you X and he's doing Y to benefit the wealthiest of the wealthy.

[00:57:33] And we have a better alternative here, and then be specific for what we want to do. It's not enough to say Donald Trump, you said you'd lower housing costs, you're not lowering them. What are we going to do as a Democratic Party? What are our ideas to bring there? Because I think that as much as we're focused on Donald Trump right now, those of us who are Democrats and I'm a proud one, have to tell the truth. We lost because the swath of Americans who go back and forth often voting for, Democrat or Republican, we lost them because they didn't trust us to make the changes their family was yearning for and needed. And so it's not just about enough to tear down Donald Trump. We have to start to build up people's trust that every day Democrats are fighting for them. They're fighting for their families. They're fighting for their safety. They're fighting for their prosperity.

Beth [00:58:24] Related. I'm curious, if you had an audience today just of that swath that goes back and forth, what's your pep talk for them? Those people who don't find today to be hard, are hopeful. They hear a new golden age for America and think, I want that. What would you say to them today?

Senator Cory Booker [00:58:41] Well, first of all, I'm proud to be an American as well. We are an incredible country and we have done things that have distinguished ourselves. Whether it's defying gravity and sending someone to the moon or during the 40s to the 80s, we were the nation on the planet Earth that had the biggest expansion in the middle class ever seen before. My dad rode that wave from segregation, poverty, single mother, into the middle class. And so we all share common goals and common values. Don't let Donald Trump lie to you. It's not an us versus them world. It's a just us. This is a battle that's gone on for eons in human history. Those people want to tell you it's us versus them and they want to otherize other people. I would keep reminding people that we are still one nation under God, indivisible. We have a common destiny. And so I'm not here to fight Trump or to hate on Trump. I don't want to let anybody ever pull me so low as to hate them. I remember running for town hall in Iowa, about to jump on the stage and somebody goes, "Dude, I want you to punch Donald Trump in the face." And I said, "Dude, that's a felony." That's wrong.

[01:00:05] And what Martin Luther King did is he didn't bring bigger fire hoses and bigger dogs to beat Bull Connor. What he did is he changed that us versus them. And suddenly Americans as far away as Iowa or New Jersey suddenly felt common cause with a bunch of Southern blacks who were fighting for equal rights. I want to in our country again to inspire this idea of common cause and common purpose. Because when Americans do come together, we have shown humanity there's nothing we can't do. And that's the moment we're in right now. Donald Trump has a vision for America that's us versus them. That's fear driven and fear based. That's creating enemies out of other Americans. And I understand that that might appeal to a lot of people. But I'm here to tell you that's not how we get great things done. And so I think that there's going to be a reckoning in the next election.

[01:01:04] I think Americans are going to get a lot more of Donald Trump and be reminded why eight years ago his highest popularity was on his inauguration day and he never saw it again because his constant dark American carnage vision of this country is just so wrong. We are a nation of abundance. We are. And we should be a nation that can make sure that every family had who works hard, has grit, like most American families do, can have affordable housing, affordable child care, affordable health care, affordable prescription drugs and a foundation. Thanks to education and other great privileges you get as an American to better yourself for your child to achieve anything possible. And so I think that Americans are going to get a stark choice in the coming months, as long as Democrats could stand up and start to give people a framing and a picture. And the worst thing we can do right now is define ourselves by who we're against and not who we're for.

Sarah [01:02:14] Whom we always like at the end of our conversations to do a little light, little exhales, what our listeners call it. We know you shared Sam Cooke earlier today, and I caught that Defying Gravity reference. So tell us, what do you listen to on Spotify right now or whatever your music player of choice.

Senator Cory Booker [01:02:30] The song I posted on my Instagram it's really meaningful to me because when I ran for mayor in the city of Newark, I lost to a guy larger than life. Over the top. You would see a lot of the grandiosity pomposity of his speech similar to Donald Trump. And if you have a chance, it became an Oscar nominated movie called Street fight that you can YouTube actually. It lost to the March of the Penguins in the Oscars. I'm an animal loving beacon, but those flightless rodents... For me, especially then I was so young. I was in my early 30s and four years seemed like forever. And then I watched him do things that I knew were going to hurt people. And we had an event, the first event to raise a little money and start our four year march to try to run for president again.

[01:03:30] And this pastor on a tough urban street where he had a small little church jumps up in the front of the room and starts singing that song "I Was Born by River". And when he got to that line, a change is going to come- a change is going to come. And so I heard that song this morning, had tears in my eyes thinking about my own journey of defeat, demoralization, and was inspired by that. And I just want to tell everybody, often out of the worst defeats-- Shiva, the god of destruction in the Hindu faith is considered one of the most valuable gods because you cannot have rebirth and renewal until after destruction. I promise you as much as you feel beat down and even collectively, so you and your friends, I promise you, we as a people, we will rise.

Sarah [01:04:32] Thank you, Senator.

Beth [01:04:33] Thank you, Senator. Your controversial take on penguins notwithstanding. We would really love to have you back sometime because that is our vibe right now. Sarah and I are focused on what we're calling the whiteboard, where we sit down with people who have long form conversations to say, "Where can we go from here?" How do we get specific about that next vision? So you have an open invitation if it ever is appealing and you're available for it. We would love to have that discussion.

Sarah [01:04:59] And we just had a nice long conversation with Representative Ro Khanna. It was awesome. Let's whiteboard it. Let's start. Let's put some new ideas up on the board.

Senator Cory Booker [01:05:09] I look forward. I have a whole bunch of [crosstalk]. I'm a bit of a nerd, so I have a lot to share with you.

Sarah [01:05:15] Same.

Beth [01:05:17] This is a place for nerds.

Sarah [01:05:21] We slow read Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America last year with our audience. If that gives you-- look at your face right now. That was the cutest thing I've ever seen.

Senator Cory Booker [01:05:31] [Inaudible]

Sarah [01:05:31] Yes, that's exactly what you did for Alexis de Tocqueville and I love it.

Beth [01:05:41] Thank you so much to Senator Booker for spending time with us. Thanks to all of you for being here. We have still a lot to cover. So we're going to be on Substack this week before we are back here again with you on Friday. We hope to see you everywhere as we keep going together.

[01:06:12] Music Interlude

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers:

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