If the reaction to The Life of a Showgirl has taught me anything, it’s that my life, apparently, codes very conservative to a meaningful segment of the population.
I was in a right state about how terrible the Internet can be and strangely, putting on my undergrad philosophy hat with y'all in this conversation sort of helped me look at it with a more curious lens. So thank you!
Hi Cy, this is a very interesting conversation. I couldn't read your post about kitsch, so I hope I'm not getting way off the rails, but:
I often say one of the best things about being gay is the swag. I guess in this context it might be "kitsch?" It's the symbols, words, and inside jokes that give our community joy and helps us recognized one another in the wild. I have an entire folder on my computer of lesbian memes that I trot out when I want to signal to other lesbians. (Happy International Lesbian Day, by the way) Inside the LGBTQ community there is sometimes infighting over these things, which is probably why everyone and their dog wants a flag now. No one wants their culture appropriated. There is an entire line of "MAGA hats" that say Make America Gay Again. This make some people VERY MAD, as you can imagine. I am a fan of Soviet constructivism, not realism, but I spent a little time looking around at examples and I think I see the point of it in terms of kitsch. By definition, lesbians exist outside of "what is means to be a woman"--which is what sets lesbianism apart from other sexual minorities. I think having lesbian "kitsch" can serve as a framework for our community to reinforce our own narratives.
In your experience, do groups that are created(?) or that depend on meme culture and being extremely online naturally devolve or do they only devolve if they begin in response to an environment that is already perceived as negative to the members?
And I didn’t answer your last question— I don’t think online communities always devolve, only in the cases where they center on self-dislike (including projected self-dislike) and insecurity. Then we usually end up with issues.
There’s a difference between kitsch and camp! Susan Sontag has a great essay on it, ‘Notes on Camp’, but TLDR kitsch is not self aware, but camp is, which is why the queer community does camp so perfectly! 🤌💋
I joined the live with zero clue and knowing if you were interested to spend one hour with Cy it would be important. I need to re-listen with pen & paper. Who knew memes pre-dated social media?!! 🤯
Angelyn I agree about the pen and paper! I am traveling and was a little distracted when I listened and then re-listened to the second half. When I get home I am going to listen one more time with pen and paper and no distractions. This is so informative! Thank you Beth and Cy.
There's a book called The Information by James Gleick that covers a wide range of how information has been packaged up and shared over human history. It introduced the non-internet version of meme to me, along with a ton of other fascinating tidbits (like the weird nonspecificity of the word "gene"). Great reading if such things are of interest- I find myself thinking about it a lot!
Happy to be introduced in this episode to a new-to-me voice exploring meaning (and especially that mirroring concept, which I'll be chewing on for a while today). Thanks!
This was so fascinating.
I loved this discussion!
Fascinating new world of information I wasn't aware of. I've got some reading to do!
I was in a right state about how terrible the Internet can be and strangely, putting on my undergrad philosophy hat with y'all in this conversation sort of helped me look at it with a more curious lens. So thank you!
Hi Cy, this is a very interesting conversation. I couldn't read your post about kitsch, so I hope I'm not getting way off the rails, but:
I often say one of the best things about being gay is the swag. I guess in this context it might be "kitsch?" It's the symbols, words, and inside jokes that give our community joy and helps us recognized one another in the wild. I have an entire folder on my computer of lesbian memes that I trot out when I want to signal to other lesbians. (Happy International Lesbian Day, by the way) Inside the LGBTQ community there is sometimes infighting over these things, which is probably why everyone and their dog wants a flag now. No one wants their culture appropriated. There is an entire line of "MAGA hats" that say Make America Gay Again. This make some people VERY MAD, as you can imagine. I am a fan of Soviet constructivism, not realism, but I spent a little time looking around at examples and I think I see the point of it in terms of kitsch. By definition, lesbians exist outside of "what is means to be a woman"--which is what sets lesbianism apart from other sexual minorities. I think having lesbian "kitsch" can serve as a framework for our community to reinforce our own narratives.
In your experience, do groups that are created(?) or that depend on meme culture and being extremely online naturally devolve or do they only devolve if they begin in response to an environment that is already perceived as negative to the members?
And I didn’t answer your last question— I don’t think online communities always devolve, only in the cases where they center on self-dislike (including projected self-dislike) and insecurity. Then we usually end up with issues.
There’s a difference between kitsch and camp! Susan Sontag has a great essay on it, ‘Notes on Camp’, but TLDR kitsch is not self aware, but camp is, which is why the queer community does camp so perfectly! 🤌💋
I understand now about the self-awareness. I don't think I'm describing "camp" though. Will have to think about that.
Also are you saying that MAGA isn't self-aware?
I joined the live with zero clue and knowing if you were interested to spend one hour with Cy it would be important. I need to re-listen with pen & paper. Who knew memes pre-dated social media?!! 🤯
Angelyn I agree about the pen and paper! I am traveling and was a little distracted when I listened and then re-listened to the second half. When I get home I am going to listen one more time with pen and paper and no distractions. This is so informative! Thank you Beth and Cy.
As someone with an unused MS in media/communication I loved this conversation 😅
There's a book called The Information by James Gleick that covers a wide range of how information has been packaged up and shared over human history. It introduced the non-internet version of meme to me, along with a ton of other fascinating tidbits (like the weird nonspecificity of the word "gene"). Great reading if such things are of interest- I find myself thinking about it a lot!
Happy to be introduced in this episode to a new-to-me voice exploring meaning (and especially that mirroring concept, which I'll be chewing on for a while today). Thanks!
This was really helpful while at the same time I don’t understand half of it. Trying to hold grains of sand is the best description.
😆 yeah I felt really out of touch, but not too sad about it
I love you all. This conversation very clearly illustrates my love of spending time with people who are a lot smarter than I am!
Same, I thought clearly these women are smarter than me and I’m here for it
I was thinking about leaving a similar comment. I *think* I understood about 51% of this… and it was fascinating.
👆this
This is so good. Thank you both!
Great conversation! I learned so much and I learned I have so much more to learn! Thanks
Same!!
This conversation was so helpful!