Netanyahu Feels the Pressure, Democrats Hold the Line, and Pete Hegseth Wants a Fight

We're circling back on the what happened in the big meetings this week.

The President is a very “heads, I win; tails, you lose” guy. It’s what his supporters love about him and what his detractors find galling. I think we’ve all learned to spot his stress when the coin is spinning in the air with an uncertain outcome.

This week, a lot of coins have been spinning.

In this episode, Sarah and I discuss:

• The President’s plan to end the war in Gaza (and our general approval of it)

• The government shutdown — why it’s landing with a thud and how it could end well

• Pete Hegseth’s pep rally and how we’re processing it (from that f-ing guy to where he has a point to where he misses the point entirely)

We always end with something outside of politics. It’s a running joke that nothing is actually outside of politics anymore, but, friends, I think we actually did it today. Outside of politics: treats only.

I hope you listen and talk about this episode with someone you care about, and I hope you’ll talk with us about it in the comments or by email. THANK YOU for being here. - Beth

Topics Discussed

• President Trump’s Meeting with Netanyahu

• The Government Shutdown

• Hegseth’s Meeting with the Generals

• Outside of Politics: The Treats Getting Us Through

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Episode Resources

Pantsuit Politics Resources

• Look for our limited edition holiday merch collection starting on Monday, October 6!

Trump’s Meetings

• Can the Trump Peace Plan Overcome Unprecedented Cruelty? (The New York Times)

• Charlie Kirk’s Letter to Netanyahu Revealed: Read in Full (Newsweek)

• Trump Is Building the Blue Scare (The Ezra Klein Show)

• Kingmaker by Sonia Purnell (Penguin Random House)

Our Treats

• C&S Blondies from October 2024 issue of Better Homes & Gardens (Sorry there is no link for this! You’ll have to grab the magazine from your local library.)

• Marines Sing Let it Go from Frozen (YouTube)

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

Our show is listener-supported. The community of paid subscribers here on Substack makes everything we do possible. Special thanks to our Executive Producers, some of whose names you hear at the end of each show. To join our community of supporters, become a paid subscriber here on Substack.

To search past episodes of the main show or our premium content, check out our content archive.

This podcast and every episode of it are wholly owned by Pantsuit Politics LLC and are protected by US and international copyright, trademark, and other intellectual property laws. We hope you'll listen to it, love it, and share it with other people, but not with large language models or machines and not for commercial purposes. Thanks for keeping it nuanced with us.

Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:08] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:00:11] You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. On today’s show, we’re circling back in corporate parlance to the meetings we discussed on Monday. On Monday, Trump met with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and came out with a peace plan. Also on Monday, Trump met was Senate Majority Leader John Thune, Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer, Speaker of the House Mike Johnson, and House Minority leader Hakeem Jeffries. That meeting did not produce anything, and we are now in the middle of a government shutdown. On Tuesday, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth invited top military brass to Quantico, where he and Trump announced several new military initiatives. Put some quotes around that. And ended all pretense of non-partisanship when it comes to the administration and the military. In other words, it’s been a very busy week, and we’re going to talk about all those meetings. Outside of politics, we have told you the treats are going to get us through. And we decided after this week it’s just going to be a treat roundup. We just need a treat roundup.

Beth [00:01:06] I need a treat roundup, that’s for sure. Speaking of treats, we’re doing something special for the holidays this year. Do you recall our 10th anniversary celebration in Cincinnati back in July? It was so much fun. Our incredible executive producer, Christie, not only organized our first ever executive producer retreat, she also created some truly phenomenal merchandise that was a huge hit at the live show. And people want more. And so we are giving everyone a chance to get Christie’s treats. She has partnered with us to curate a special holiday collection just for you. This is a limited run, one time only sale. So you do have to get while the getting is good here. You can buy things like ornaments, beanies, hoodies, mugs, a special 2026 calendar. So what a great way to treat yourself or the Pantsuit Politics fan in your life. These treats will be in your mailboxes or on your porches by early December, but when it is gone, it is gone. It is a limited run situation. The sale starts on Monday, October 6th. It will run for two weeks. Do not miss out on Christie’s treats.

Sarah [00:02:13] Just a reminder, Beth and I will be out next week to Switzerland for our Common Ground Pilgrimage on Frankenstein. Fear not, we’ve got new episodes recorded for you. Alise and Maggie will be here holding down the fort for whatever you need. We just wanted to start announcing that schedule change now. We’ll have another episode for you on Friday, and then we will be off on international adventures.

Beth [00:02:36] Apologies in advance for coming back and having so much to say about artificial intelligence.

Sarah [00:02:43] So true. Alright, next up, let’s circle back.

Beth [00:02:46] Let’s circle back.

Sarah [00:03:00] Beth, let’s start with Trump and Netanyahu. I thought this sentence from Thomas Friedman’s New York Times column on the meeting was very good and a great place to start. President Trump’s 20-point peace plan for Gaza is a smart plan for turning a bomb crater into a launching pad for peace. For taking a terrible, terrible war in Gaza and leveraging it to not only create a new foundation for solving the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, but also for normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, and maybe even Iraq as well. If it succeeds, it could even set in motion a much-needed transformation in Iran. He praises Jared Kushner, Steve Witkoff, and my favorite feature in this development, Tony Blair. He says, without their efforts this initiative would not have been born. So I just want to start with that. It’s so easy to decide anything that is connected to Donald Trump is a bad idea. If you can’t trust us, trust Thomas Friedman. Lots of people with expertise and deep investment in this area of the world have said pretty consistently, this is a good plan. Pulling it off will be Herculean, but this is good plan.

Beth [00:04:13] I am for what ends this war. I am for with the people in the region can live with. I am so hopeful that this works. I got some nitpicks chiefly that Trump himself will chair the transformational government. I think that’s insane. I think a lot of their multi-part staffing is insane, though, like Marco Rubio’s plate seems to be overflowing to me. I’m not for multiple, multiple jobs as much like I don’t I think Senator Cruz should have a podcast as well because those are both big jobs. So I don’t love that. But for the most part, it does feel to me like Netanyahu is finally starting to feel some pressure for real on him to stop. And that is hopeful to me. And if the world can unite around this plan, I agree with you, I would watch a documentary about Tony Blair. Just about this incident, like where he’s coming from, what he’s trying to do, how he’s integrating a lot of hard-won lessons in this region and elsewhere about this kind of conflict. I think all that is fascinating. And if it gets to something lasting here, what a gift.

Sarah [00:05:32] Yeah, he has to be on the board because how’s he going to collect his Nobel Peace Prize if he’s not the chair of the board? He’s not going to actually do much, you and I know that. He wants it. And you know what, if he gets this done, give it to him, I don’t care. I really did like Thomas Friedman’s analysis though. Like in the Middle East my rule is it’s not what people say in private during those negotiations, it’s what they say in public to their own people in their own language. That’s what matters in the middle East. Hamas did not get any information about this peace process or this peace plan. So that still has to go through them. And Friedman is right. There are going to be people whose entire motivation is to kill this before it even starts. I desperately hope there are enough people that see not only should they not cave to that fear-mongering and the manipulation and undermining that so often happens from extreme aisles, but their lives depend on it. I mean, everyone I think is watching what Ukraine has done with taking very cheap drones and sneaking them into Russia and making it very, very hard on Russia on lots of different levels.

[00:06:51] I read a piece of the day that was like they’re winning. They’re winning. The drones are cheap. They’re making it hard. He’s running the clock but now the clock has run to such an extent that war itself is shifting. This war is shifting. I think this has absolutely happened with Israel. He has run the clock so long and pushed so hard that now they’re turning into an international pariah. And so would I have liked for all along the Biden administration to exert more pressure on the Netanyahu government? Absolutely. But that has changed dramatically now because now the pressure we can exert is so large because we’re basically the only ally they have left. And so I am encouraged that Donald Trump and Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner not only are exerting that pressure, but are invested in-- we all sort of scoffed at the way they have built up the relationship with the emirate states and the authoritarian governments there. But I do think that’s paying dividends now. I think they’re invested with Saudi Arabia. They’re invested with Qatar. When Israel bombed Qatar it burned a lot of goodwill, whatever was remaining, in a way that has pushed the ball, has advanced the ball.

[00:08:05] I think the emirate states have a lot of pull with the Trump administration to say this is not acceptable. We don’t like this. And it’s not just this international diplomacy. The emirate states, the European states recognizing Palestinian statehood. It’s just the polling. The polling is shit for Israel in America. Like it’s really, really bad and getting worse by the day. And not just with young liberals, with older Republicans up and down the political spectrum. The disapproval of Israel and its approach right now is just growing and growing and growing. And so I just think all of these things are sort of coming together in a way that has gotten us to where there is a peace plan that is believable. Now, again, the effort it will take to get it across the ball in the face of people who will want anything but that is going to be massive. The competency of this administration is sometimes something I question, but I want it to work. I want it to work

Beth [00:09:12] I want it to work, too. I feel compelled to say that the investment with the emirate states is difficult to have faith in as an American because it is a personal investment more than a country level investment, right? That much of the reason that president Trump has juice with Arab leaders is because he, like them, is extremely financially motivated. And extremely motivated by his personal legacy. It is about Donald Trump. I continuously pray that the interest of America and the interest of Donald Trump are aligned in the world because that is what is always driving the bus his personal interests. And so it’s hard to trust that but a lot of good things come about for bad reasons and selfish reasons and mixed motivations. And so something good can come of this. Something good and lasting that helps break through what has seemed intractable, I’m for that.

[00:10:16] I also think that when you look at the polling in the United States, you see what advocates in this region have been calling for, for a long time. Like a more nuanced perspective by the public on the state of Israel versus Judaism generally versus the safety of Jews in the world versus the rights of Palestinians. I think people are starting to unpack what has been carefully and intentionally politically woven together for a long time because what else can you do in the face of all of this? It has been so devastating specifically over the last few months to just watch and look at the world. And I think the dual images from Ukraine and Gaza just have to make you think like what is the point of this? This is so senseless. Life is hard enough. Why would anybody tolerate this level of suffering being inflicted on innocent people? And so I really do hope that we are entering a new era and I will give this administration great credit for helping get us there if we do, even if I don’t love everything that went into it.

Sarah [00:11:41] Did you see Charlie Kirk’s letter to Netanyahu that was released?

Beth [00:11:44] Yeah.

Sarah [00:11:45] I thought it was so interesting. First of all, it’s a roadmap. If anybody would like to dominate the messaging apparatus of our current media environment, he lays out pretty clearly how to do that. But I thought his acknowledgement that like you are losing this war; you are losing the war for American opinion and American minds because you don’t get to filter everything through whatever media environment you hope to control. People can get on TikTok. People can get on Instagram or X and see what is happening there. And I was reading something else where they were talking about because so much of the approach has always just been like, well, if you oppose us you’re antisemitic, in both a real escalating danger for the world Jewish population, but also a weakening of the Israeli position. You’ve taken all the impact out of that word, like out of the accusation. What did you think was going to happen? So I think that that is something that will be really, really hard to reckon with.

[00:12:56] Even if everything goes as planned with this peace process is sort of the damage to people’s understanding of the Israeli project, to their understanding of everything that used to be so seamlessly knit together now that it’s been pulled apart. What does that mean for Israelis? What does mean for American Jews? What does it mean for the global Jewish population? I think these are incredibly-- and this is the work of generations, I think, that will have to be in pursuit of the fallout from the last two years. Beth, we’re shut down. I read this thing in Puck and it was like everybody’s just kind of shrugging like, oh, hmm. People are like walking around the Capitol, they’re in recess, just their hats turned around backward, their quarter zips on. And it’s just sort of like a giant shrug. And I got to say, that hit me. I feel that a little bit in the coverage. I feel that a little bit in my daily life. I feel we’re very early in the shutdown, but I do feel like it’s not bubbling up to the level of like passive news consumers. Not in any way that I can see.

Beth [00:14:12] My daughter came home last night and she had been talking about this with friends and they were kind of like what’s the big deal? It just happens all the time. And I said, it doesn’t. It doesn’t happen all the times. There is coverage that it sounds like it could happen every time because Congress always goes up to the deadline. But normally they get something done, even if it’s a short little patch and then they do it again. And maybe that is the problem. Maybe the fear of a shutdown has made a shutdown itself a big nothing burger to the public.

Sarah [00:14:46] I believe there’s a fable about this. About a boy crying wolf.

Beth [00:14:50] And the wolf, yeah. And I think that’s maybe what’s happened. And I will have to go on for a long time to have impact. People are going to have to miss checks. There’s going to have to be pain for it to bubble to that level. And I don’t know if it is helpful that there is a little bit of room that you have a few days here where they can get this back on track and it not create that kind of pain or if that is harmful because what everybody is looking for is a big sort of messaging reckoning moment. I don’t even know if I think it’s ethical to look for that big messaging reckoning moment when there is so much harm on the other side if it goes on and on. I think these are all really hard questions. Every time I try to acknowledge that a shutdown is bad, objectively, someone really comes at me about how important this shutdown is. And I’ve said on the show, I don’t out of hand disagree that Democrats need to use the limited tools available to them to push back on the administration. I still have questions about how you get out of this that feel unanswered to me. How does this end? I don’t know.

Sarah [00:16:02] Well, and here’s the thing. I do think that the healthcare emphasis they’re making is better than people are giving them credit for. I’ve always kind of thought if you’re going to make it about something, make it a health care because it’s about to get so expensive for people. And I was thinking about it and I’m like, well, this is how you know they’re worried about it. It’s because did you follow this like Trump RX situation? And it was rushed. The rest of the pharmaceutical industry had no time to negotiate the kind of deal that Pfizer agreed to with the Trump administration that leads to this sort of government website slated for 2020. It just screams Trump.

Beth [00:16:41] It does.

Sarah [00:16:41] Like half-baked, not till the future.

Beth [00:16:44] Slap my name on it.

Sarah [00:16:46] Some people got a deal, some people did not for any real reason anyone can articulate, but just because we were in a hurry. I’m like, oh, they rushed this out because they wanted something positive around healthcare because they knew the Democrats were going to get a lot of press around saying we’re shutting this down because they’re shutting down your healthcare. And so I was like, okay, well, that’s encouraging. And I think it’s so interesting. There was even some reporting this morning on the cost of groceries. And Karoline Leavitt was like we inherited the worst inflation and also we have more work to do, which is not something you hear from the Trump administration a lot. Like usually it’s I’ll fix it.

Beth [00:17:21] They already fixed it. What are you talking about?

Sarah [00:17:22] Either I already fixed it, I will fix it, or if it doesn’t get fixed, then it’s someone else’s fault. And they’re even running out of room of that with the groceries. For her to say like we still have work to do; I’m like, y’all never say you have work to do. That is a miracle. So I don’t know. I think they will exert a lot of pain in the process. I do think that government shutdowns are terrible. And I think the way out to me would be for the Democratic party, whether they get the allowances they want on healthcare or not; to say, we don’t want to do this anymore. We don’t want to kick the can. We don’t want to cry wolf. When we’re in power again, this will stop. We will not do this process anymore. I don’t know exactly what policy proposal I think is the best way to fix it. I think there’s a couple that are beneficial. I don’t know if somebody should just come out and be like we need to rewrite the budget process. Like clearly we’re not doing it this way anymore. So let’s rewrite it in a way that we think meets the needs of the current-- you know what, y’all don’t even need to wait. Don’t even wait till it’s not shut down anymore. Come out now and say like can everybody see that this isn’t working? This is our proposal for a new budgetary process once we’re in charge.

Beth [00:18:43] Put it on a two-year cycle. They can’t do this every year. Put it on a thoughtful two-years cycle. That’s your term in the house, right? We built a budget for our term that we’re serving.

Sarah [00:18:56] Or even longer because that’s how they push this shit. They’re like, well, the clawbacks and blah, blah, blah need to be by five years from now.

Beth [00:19:03] Give our agencies some level of stability. I mean, there are a million ways that you could do this. Put it on a different calendar. Like, if you know that it has to be funded by September 30th, then write a rule that everything has to be passed by August 30th. There are a million way to do this, I totally agree. It would be great for someone to say, do you see how insane this is? Can we fix that? And to do that in a way that puts some pressure on Republicans to go, yeah, we agree. This is making all of our jobs miserable. Lots of people from both parties want out of Congress because of how miserable this is.

Sarah [00:19:44] Well, and I just think another messaging component of the Trump administration that I would like to see Democrats start to articulate and push back on. I definitely think that he’s gotten richer, have you? Is a good one that they should lean into. And not just because I thought it up, but also this idea that do you want everything to be political? Do you want cancer research to be a tool to attack your political opponents? Do you what the budget process? Do you want the military, which is a good transition to what we’re going to talk about next. Do you want to literally every facet of American life to be the thunder dome for partisan politics? Because my hunch tells me that most Americans would say, hell no.

Beth [00:20:43] I agree, and I am increasingly feeling like that means the urge to fight and to feel emotionally satisfied that a fight is being put up is the wrong urge right now. I think that objectively most people would look at the video that the president reposted of Hakeem Jeffries and Chuck Schumer that features a sombrero and some really ugly divisive language about race. I think objectively the vast majority of people would be like, gross, I hate that.

Sarah [00:21:28] I don’t even think you have to get into the ugliness. How about do you want the president of the United States posting fake videos about his opponents?

Beth [00:21:36] Agreed. This morning Maggie sent us a video that the Democrats account released. The Democrats. So not some random person retweeted, right? The Democrats. And it’s two cats explaining the government shutdown from the perspective of the Democrats, and I hate it. I hate it with everything in me because it feels like constantly we just get this rhythm of like, well, let’s do their thing but better and let’s do their thing, but it’s better because we’re better people or because we have the moral high ground in the argument or whatever. And I just continually think what we need right now is contrast. Not we’re all great at social media and we own each other all day and it’s so satisfying the end, but contrast. Trump has taken government websites and splashed banners saying the radical left shut down the government on them. That is so stupid. So stupid. And not at all I think the way most people want this country to function and feel. How do we create opportunities for someone-- and I hope it can be the Democrats, but if not someone to be like, no, this is so that we’re not doing it. We’re not it. We’re doing our own thing and here’s what our own things looks like.

Sarah [00:23:01] I think it’s hard for two reasons. It is stupid, but it is also dangerous. And the rhetorical challenge of Donald Trump has always been how do you articulate the danger of his approach without accelerating an emotional back and forth? How do you take it seriously but also acknowledge the danger? One of the main ways we have found is that emotional moral footing. Which is what we spent a lot of time talking about on the spicy yesterday with regard to Ezra Klein’s conversation with Ta-Nehisi Coates. I’m not hearing very many people try to do something different with this meeting with the generals. I think this is a really good manifestation of how hard this is. Well, and I don’t want to say hard because it’s reductive and not advancing any sort of intellectual understanding of what’s going on here. But when they invite the generals, 800 generals from across the globe at enormous expense, it is both stupid and silly and obviously an exercise in ego and production and lights, camera, action from Pete Hegseth. It was so obviously an exercise in please look at me. To the point where so many people in the military like on background were like rolling their eyes. And so there’s a part of me that’s like, okay, we should just roll our eyes to it. Like just be like he’s silly.

[00:25:00] And also I take seriously this historical analogy Ezra is pushing that it’s very close to a red scare like a blue scare, the enemy from within. We need our troops to use major American cities where a lot of democratic voters are as training grounds. This is a thing that Donald Trump articulated during his speech before the generals. Pushing on the idea that everything including the United States military is a tool for partisan warfare, including their own citizens. And so I know that I personally haven’t gotten that balance right in the past 10 years. And I’m just desperate, truly desperate to find how to walk that line. How to say they have the power. And so whether they’re silly or stupid or incompetent or ego driven or corrupt or whatever word you want to use, their decisions have consequences and the stakes are high. And also I don’t want to lead into the trap of the Biden administration like the stakes are high and also we’ll run the 81-year-old dude. Like, well, where you’d get Democrats on background going, well, we’ll just wait till the next election. It’s such a mind warp living in this administration where you’re like moving about your life, but also you know that it’s not normal to call 800 generals and say the enemy is within. That’s bad. I don’t know, man. I don’t know.

Beth [00:26:48] I think a mistake that I sometimes make on our show is that I have gone through sort of a process before we sit down to record. And so what I start with here is the middle toward the end of the thinking process. So I will be transparent about my processing of this meeting, which started with like this fucking guy. The preening, the peacock nature, the General Patton flag behind him, the usage of these generals and admirals and people who’ve dedicated their lives to the military as props, which is what they were. They were props for this thing that Pete is producing for himself. I don’t care for Pete Hegseth, okay? And so I have really roasted him in my mind all week. Since we learned about this meeting, I have been on a loop roasting Pete Hegseth. It is not great for my spirit. It is not intellectually rigorous. It does nothing to advance anything, but that is where I started. I watched this instead of reading the transcript. I prefer with this administration to read the transcript, but I realized this event was about visuals. So I watched it. Beginning with the remarks from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, who I thought was walking this really interesting line of praising the people to whom he is accountable while also trying to nod to the seriousness of what is happening. He talked about meeting with Gold Star families the night before and what a sober occasion that is.

[00:28:41] So he’s trying to knit together all the strains present in this room. I can imagine in my body what the air must’ve felt like in that room. How much was being held at one time. I also tried as I was listening to Hegseth in particular to think about what I learned from reading the defense section of Project 2025. Because he cribbed a lot of that throughout his remarks. The idea that the military has not kept pace with technological change, that its processes are too bureaucratic, that procurement in particular is a mess. Which is something that I think there is pretty bipartisan agreement about. There are aspects of this that I think serious people of lots of different philosophical persuasions could sit down and get on the same page about. But then he combines that with his version of Christianity a lot. There was a lot of Jesus and the golden rule and a prayer at the end. A lot of Christianity from his perspective woven in. And just like stuff he wants to get off his chest. Somebody must’ve criticized him for calling someone fat at some point because now it is his favorite word.

[00:30:09] It’s just really important to him to show that he has the microphone. He can say whatever he damn well pleases and fat is the insult that he wants hurl with impunity. And so I just tried to kind of step back from my like disdain for this person, which I do feel in a way that is more genuine than I wish it were. I tried to step back from that and just think about all the dynamics here surrounding this. And what does this look like to someone who doesn’t feel that gut level of disdain? And I haven’t quite figured out if a person who sees the world very differently than I do watch the whole thing, would they also walk away saying, what was that? Or would they find something in it that they could really sink their teeth into?

Sarah [00:31:01] I think that’s it. Okay, so what I’m realizing is the persuadable and I’m in the business of persuading people. I feel that it is good and right to not overreact. It is good and right and reasonable to say, yeah, that part was ridiculous, but this part I understood. We had a listener in the comment that was like, as connected to the military, there’s some stuff in there that’s right. They buried it under some bullshit, but there’s something in there that’s right. And so I really want to be like, okay, what is it? They can’t have an enemy within if we jujitsu and don’t become the enemy they want us to become, right? We can deprive them of that by saying we don’t agree with every one of their solutions, but this articulated problem is accurate. And not like, but we don’t want to hear them articulate the problem because they’re hypocrites and they’ve never articulated a problem before and they ignored it when it was them. Okay, yes, we know. I know, I get it. I get it that they’re worse. They’re always worse. They’re always not operating in good faith. It’s always transactional. Yes, fine.

[00:32:22] But a lot of what you talked about and when you were reviewing the project 2026, particularly around the military, it hit. It’s not all perfect. Like we do have a recruitment problem. I do not believe Pete Hegseth’s approach is going to solve it. I do not believe there’s enough like AI-generated Christian nationalists, blonde, blue-eyed white men like they put on their recruiting poster in America if every single one of them signed up, which they are not going to do, to solve our problems. But I want to take seriously and engage in an intellectually honest way, even if they will not in return, with the critiques. Because I think that’s what people who we need to persuade are looking for. Because if you say everything they said is bullshit, because they’re bullshit, people hear, well, if I connected to one thing they said you think I’m bullshit too. Like you think I’m an idiot because I agree with some of the things they said. I think that’s what a lot of people heard for the last 10 years around Donald Trump. If I connect with anything he said you think I’m a racist, sexist, homophobic, deplorable. And I think we have a lot of work to do persuading people that that is not in fact how we feel about them. Unfortunately, I think a lot of people do feel that way. I don’t really know what to do with that.

Beth [00:33:51] Well, and that’s self-reinforcing, right? That has a momentum, too. So if I try to block that momentum in myself and say, what is here that I either agree with or am curious about, or I can kind of get the appeal of? I start with I think that a lot of people share the sentiment that I think animates Donald Trump that America can’t win a war anymore. And I think a lot people hate that. And it’s scary, right? It’s scary to think we do have close to dominant economic power in the world, a host of weaponry, incredible training for our military. And as we talked about when we were talking about Israel and Gaza and Ukraine and Russia, the nature of war has changed significantly. It has been changing since the 1960s. It will continue to change with technology. And it is scary and frustrating and demoralizing, especially for people who have made incredible sacrifices for themselves or their loved ones to serve in the military. It is scary to feel that we’re not positive that America can win a war anymore.

[00:35:11] Something from Project 2025 in the defense section was the concern that America specifically could not handle more than one front at a time right now, and we are living at a times globally where you could see the need to handle multiple fronts at one time. And so I understand the emphasis on-- honestly, I even kind of understand the impulse of like, okay, we got to regroup. Let’s kick it off with a retreat. I sort of understand. I kind of get it. The trouble then where I would come back and say this fucking guy, is everything that we have been talking about the nature of war changing is different from the direction Pete Hegseth wants to go. The idea that we should rebuild for World War II is what he’s looking for, right? That it is all about the physical strength of the people in the field. And it is all about the sort of manly warrior ethos that he loves to lean into.

[00:36:12] That’s not the nature of war anymore. The nature of war now is what the tech guys do. The nature of war now is data and precision targeting. Of course, there are still people on the ground who need that physical strength and who have to engage in a combat that is chilling for me to begin to imagine and I can’t fully imagine. Of course, we still need some of that. But if you are retooling for a modern military in the way that Project 2025 laid out, a document that he was explicitly nodding to in many of his remarks, that is not the direction to take it. So what would that look like? And that’s where I wish that the people in that room who had to sit silently through all of this could just go give some interviews. Because I would like to hear from your perspective, where are we succeeding? Where are we failing? And what should we be doing?

Sarah [00:37:14] Well, and here is my answer as a Democrat to that. World War II was not won by some sort of warrior Christian national ethos. World War II was won by the incredible diversity of not just Americans, but also Europeans who were using everything they had. If you were a Jewish socialist, and you had a good idea about nuclear weapons, come on along, friends. If you were a woman who had just read Pamela Harriman’s biography, the ability to, let’s say, politely connect with allies in order to strengthen the British position or the overall ally position, come on along. America’s strength is not by eliminating half of the people who are already here and calling them the enemy within because you want to use it as your political bludgeon. That is weakening America’s security. Our military is impressive because it is a no holds bar. If you can help, if you can contribute, and you want to, whether you’re a trans or an immigrant or a socialist or whatever, come on in, we’ll take it.

[00:38:47] We’ll take your new idea about a drone. We’ll take your new ideas about procurement processes. That makes the military stronger because you have a wider pool of talent to pull from. So this idea that you’re going to use the military to pull-- you’re saying we’ve weakened the military by policing it, but all I heard was more policing, more policing more policing only in our direction. The weakness that they’re presenting in all these fronts, all three of these meetings in a lot of ways, it’s just the woke right. We didn’t really mean it when we said we want an exchange of ideas. We meant we want to use the power of the government to enforce our worldview. And if you don’t align with our worldview, we will use the of the state to suppress you.

Beth [00:39:34] Yeah, Pete’s pitch is if everyone were like me, we’d be in great shape. That’s his pitch.

Sarah [00:39:40] Former Fox News anchor. Okay, great.

Beth [00:39:43] And I just think that is manifestly absurd. When you were talking earlier about we can’t have an enemy within if we don’t show up as an enemy, I do want to give just major kudos to activists, organizers, leaders on the ground in the cities where they have deployed National Guard and federal law enforcement. The response to that has been, I think, really impressive. And despite the tension they are trying to create, there is a diffusion of that. Especially by the leaders who are saying like, “Great, the National Guard’s here,” welcome, we could use your help with this park.

Sarah [00:40:30] Yeah, I think that’s a perfect example of that. Perfect.

Beth [00:40:34] I hate that National Guard members are away from their families for those types of things, but that is a smart, effective way to lower the temperature, get something done, give the troops themselves a different experience of these cities than maybe some of them walked in with. And I just really commend everybody involved in keeping that situation, which could have become an unbelievable powder keg so quickly, calm.

Sarah [00:41:05] And taking the fuel out of his fire.

Beth [00:41:07] It is, and you can tell. That’s why he said Portland next, right? Because he is itching for a city to go up in flames. He’s itching for it. And everyone has said, no, we will not. And that is the best of us. That is to me the most inspiring thing that’s happened in the opposition since this term started.

Sarah [00:41:26] Yes, I’m applauding. I could not agree more. You guys, we are all Trump experts at this point. Tap your deep expertise, not your disdain. Not your distain. Even I’m going to have to work on this with Pete Hegseth because I don’t know him as well. But I think part of this meeting was a little bit of-- because he can’t keep this department in check. He is not accomplishing things. The reporting is all that it’s a disaster. And so it’s desperate. It’s getting desperate. I want to remind you I’m the boss. I am the boss.

Beth [00:42:02] Welcome to the Department of War.

Sarah [00:42:02] And he just looks so silly up there with these-- also, I just want to say it also looked ridiculous when you’re all talking about all the women, all the fat people, and the audience is just like 800 dudes. Pretty buff, stern looking dudes. Like, they look like warriors to me. Am I missing something?

Beth [00:42:21] I mean, the president said that. Central casting. Look at you all, central casting.

Sarah [00:42:26] Yes. I mean come on. If you just let them spin out. I don’t think it’s as simple as their policies and their decisions, like we just can sit around and wait for them to fail. But with their messaging, often if they cannot find a fight on X or in the messaging, it’s hard to distinguish these two things. I think it really is, and I think the cities are a perfect example. Like where to let them spend out, and also understanding that it’s not a guarantee that everything they do will fail. Holding both of those things at the same time is an intellectually complex task. It is an emotionally taxing task, but it is what we are called to do in the face of the Trump administration.

Beth [00:43:11] And I get that it is annoying to have to continually be intellectually and emotionally taxed when you feel like you’re running on fumes. We have so many people who listen to this podcast who are daily, directly impacted by what this administration is doing because of their professions, because of where they live, because of someone that they love. Like daily, directly affected. And so many of you are still just tapping those reserves. And that is what, to me, is so impressive about these cities because that is a daily, direct impact from the administration. Even if you are never stopped by someone, the feeling, my city is in the news, there are vehicles in my city, there’s equipment in my cities, there are uniforms in my city, that is psychologically draining. And the fact that these cities have responded in such a calm way, overall, it renews some stores in me. Because you look and you say, okay, if they can handle this so can I.

Sarah [00:44:27] Pete Hegseth doesn’t know what he’s talking about with a warrior ethos, but a lot of y’all do. That’s what that is. It’s a long fight that we’re engaged in right now. And we are all so much stronger than we give ourselves credit for. And also, we need treats, which is what we’re going to talk about next. The treats will get us through. Warriors have treats.

Beth [00:45:05] The best thing on the whole of the internet, I’m just going to claim it. Have you seen the video of folks in Afghanistan watching Frozen and singing along to Let It Go?

Sarah [00:45:19] No.

Beth [00:45:20] It is my favorite thing. It’s years old at this point. But I think it’s Marines. I’m not positive. I say that not to insult any of the other armed services if I’m wrong. But I it’s a group of Marines and they are in this little conference room and they’re watching Frozen and they singing Let It Go with Elsa. And the part where she takes her hair down, you know, and shakes it out, they like explode with excitement and applause. And it is so fun to watch.

Sarah [00:45:45] Listen, so many of the treats we have now are not to be like World War II historian, fun fact, but you trace all this like the Hershey bar, not to mention cigarettes, but all of it comes from troops. They had to have the treats. The warriors needed the treats and so do we all. Okay. First treat. I watched all 14 hours of The Pit while I was in England.

Beth [00:46:09] You thought The Pit was a treat?

Sarah [00:46:10] Yeah, I did. I thought it was really, really brilliant.

Beth [00:46:13] I find it so stressful. I think it’s so good, but I find that so stressful.

Sarah [00:46:16] Well, just when art is that good-- it’s why Tony Springer lives in my heart. When art is that good, I don’t know other way to describe it but a delight. By the end of that season, what they had done and the way they kind of knitted it back together in the finale, I don’t know other ways to describe it except for just every night I’ll go back to my room and be like it’s treat time. It’s treat time. Give me some Noah. Give me some Noah. It’s so good. You got to watch it. Just push through. I know it’s stressful. You’ll get past it. It’s okay. It’s fake. Nobody actually died. Just remind yourself that. It’s so freaking good. Such good acting on that show except for a few people. I won’t get into that because we’re talking about treats.

Beth [00:46:58] Here’s a treat for me. I’m spending quite a bit of time in the car these days chauffeuring my kids around. And there is an evening each week where Ellen has three hours of drama. And the location is such that three hours is too long to just sit in my car, but not long enough to go home and then come back and get her. So I find different ways to occupy myself. And there are some treats in that. One is that there is a beautiful cemetery near the place where she’s doing her drama. And it’s a gorgeous place to walk. And the caretaker of the cemetery and his family live on site, and occasionally you see them. There are tons of deer who hang out in the cemetery. It’s lovely. Also, last week, I had some more sitting time than I wanted, so I went into Walgreens and I bought myself some fall magazines.

Sarah [00:47:54] Like design? Like home decor?

Beth [00:47:57] Like home decor, like cooking. It was such a treat. I forgot how much I love a magazine.

Sarah [00:48:04] I do love a magazine.

Beth [00:47:57] Touching the pages, it’s so different from scrolling on your phone. It’s also so different from reading a book. It’s just the loveliest to sit and look at a magazine, and I cannot tell you how much I enjoyed it. I’m going to get a lot more magazines in my life this fall.

Sarah [00:48:18] I’m living the fall treats. I’ve had two pumpkin spice lattes this week. My mom is making these like pumpkin cinnamon rolls. They don’t even need icing. They’re so good. We’ve been enjoying those. So I’m leaning into the fall treats for sure. And to the sitting and listening of it all, please don’t forget that we have the ultimate treat coming tonight with Taylor Swift’s new album.

Beth [00:48:45] That is going to be a treat. Can I tell you one fall treat that everyone should put on your radar? One of the magazines had a recipe in it for cinnamon toast blondies.

Sarah [00:48:54] Okay.

Beth [00:48:58] So think about the best of cinnamon toast. Just a great piece of bread with some salty butter and cinnamon and sugar on top. This recreates that in blondie form. And it is outstanding. We will put the recipe in the notes for you. Please use salted butter. Please do not make this without salted butter.

Sarah [00:49:18] Wait, is there like a nut or anything in there?

Beth [00:49:20] There’s no nut in there.

Sarah [00:49:21] Okay, no, I’m out. I need a crunch.

Beth [00:49:23] No, listen to me. There is a crunch that forms on the top. So you bake it with this layer on top that creates its own little crunch. And it is superb. Do not knock it until you try it. It is so good.

Sarah [00:49:37] Are you sure it could not be improved by some pecans? Because I find it very rare a dessert like that cannot be improved by pecans.

Beth [00:49:44] Do what you want.

Sarah [00:49:45] Maybe I’ll just wrinkle half and I’ll report back.

Beth [00:49:47] I don’t know why you’re judging my treat before you’ve even had it, Sarah.

Sarah [00:49:52] Because on the pilgrimage I really fully articulated my desire to have something to sink my teeth in. I do not like soft foods. I’ve found in my life-- this is why Japan was a struggle for me at times, especially around their sweets. I need a food that has some bite. I need to sink by teeth into something. Doesn’t that fit my personality? Doesn’t that track? You know what I’m saying?

Beth [00:50:14] Well, I’m just telling you that this has a really lovely crust on the top.

Sarah [00:50:17] Well, if it’s a blondie, you could make it in the edge pan. That would solve all the problems.

Beth [00:50:23] Mine had a great crust. It was perfect.

Sarah [00:50:25] I love the edge pan. I don’t ever want to eat a chess bar again from the middle. Why would you? You have the edge pan. Like I love all the puff up on the sides and the corners. Yes ma’am. So that sounds like, okay, I’m going to make it. And I will still maybe sprinkle pecans. I do love a fall treat. I love a pumpkin bread. I love anything with cinnamon in it. I love it. Anything you really make with a can of pumpkin, to be honest with you. If it is a baked good and it has canned pumpkin in it, I don’t really need to know much else, honestly.

Beth [00:50:57] My fall magazines have so many roasted pumpkin recipes. I cannot even tell you. So many pumpkins with feta and sunflower seeds and all this wonderful stuff to dip your roasted pumpkin wedge into.

Sarah [00:51:13] I love it. All right, well, we want to hear some more treats too. I forgot, but Alise says by the time you’re listening to this, you’ll already have Taylor Swift. So you’ll be like just treating it up with our girl. I’m so excited about that. That’ll be fun. Brandy Carlile has a new album. Lots of treats coming out in October as well. So we want hear from you. The treats will get us through. We hope that you have enjoyed today’s episode. We will be back in years on Tuesday with another new episode and our limited run holiday merch sale will be live then, too. So don’t forget to get ready to buy whatever you want for your fellow Pantsuit Politic fans in your life or for yourself. No judgment. Until then, keep it nuanced y’all.