One Year of RFK Jr.

How He's Dismantling America's Public Health System

We’ve been putting off talking about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. at HHS. With a measles outbreak growing and Casey Means’s nomination as surgeon general, we couldn’t wait any longer.

Sarah walks us through the staggering personnel losses in the Department of Health and Human Services, and we try to make sense of what’s driving this. Is RFK a true believer? A grifter? Both? What does it mean that the least popular part of MAHA is the part they’ve gone all in on?

I keep coming back to trust. We made a mistake as a public after COVID in attributing malice to what was really inexperience with a new kind of threat, which prevented the reflection and improvement that were already starting to happen. Now the challenge next time will be so much greater.

We end with the story of Grandparents for Vaccines, a new organization of people who remember what life was like before these diseases were conquered. It’s the kind of thing that reminds me we’re not powerless, even when the government is being reckless with things that matter this much.

Outside of politics, Sarah gives her Oscars rundown while I sit here having watched almost nothing, which is our annual tradition at this point.

-Beth

Topics Discussed

• RFK Jr Remakes HHS

• Outside of Politics: The Oscars

Want more Pantsuit Politics? Subscribe to ensure you never miss an episode and get access to our premium shows and community.

Episode Resources

• MAHAspital (SNL)

• ‘Science is still emerging’: Dr. Casey Means defends psilocybin therapy to Susan Collins in Senate (The Economic Times | YouTube)

• Lessons from the Covid War with Dr. Charity Dean (Pantsuit Politics)

• Meet the Horrified Grandparents Fighting for Vaccines (The Bulwark)

• Hamnet by Maggie O’Farrell

Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:08] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:10] This is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:00:11] You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. Today we’re talking about Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who has now been the head of the Department of Health and Human Services for over a year. In the chaos created by the president, the chaos created by RFK Jr. is hard to keep up with, but with the growing measles outbreak, we felt we couldn’t put off talking about his tenure any longer. We’re going to talk about what he’s done, how the maha movement feels about it, and the consequences for the rest of us. And what comes next? Outside of Politics, we’re going to talk about the Oscars.

Beth [00:00:42] We’re excited to be coming to Minneapolis in August for our one and only live show of the year. Tickets for the show and the after party, which will both be at the Minneapolis Hyatt Centric are on sale now. You can find that link in our show notes. Not only are we having the show and after party at the Hyatt Centric downtown, we have also blocked off the entire hotel for our community for the weekend. So if you’re coming from out of town, or even if you aren’t, join the fun. You can get a room through our reservation block link. It’s going to be so nice to be all together and to know that you’re going to run to people in the hallway who love Pantsuit Politics and who are there to make friends, to get to know you, to learn, to have fun together. So we hope to see you in Minneapolis.

Sarah [00:01:20] Next up, let’s talk about MAHA and its leader. Beth, you know how we really knew it was time to talk about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and the MAHA Movement?

Beth [00:01:36] It hit Saturday Night Live.

Sarah [00:01:38] It hit Saturday Night live.

Clip: SNL [00:01:40] MAHAspital

Sarah [00:02:04] Did you see the sketch, Beth?

Beth [00:02:07] I thought it was so well done. I was a big fan of like “Two more liters of raw milk.”

Sarah [00:02:15] Oh my gosh. Because it is weird the way this is so impactful but also not getting talked about a ton. I think part of it is just Trump soaks up so much oxygen in the room. But there’s a lot going on with Robert Kennedy and his-- I hate to use the word leadership, but I don’t really know what else to say about it.

Beth [00:02:44] Yeah, I read a newsletter every week focused on just medical topics. And I find it really overwhelming, even though it is a short bullet point form of information because there is so much happening. It feels so chaotic. And so much of it you can read it and know how consequential it’s going to be. But also you know that that consequence is going to roll out over a very long period of time and people are going to feel it really disparately. And I think that’s part of why it’s difficult to report on in a way that attracts a lot of attention against the backdrop of something like the war in Iran or the Epstein files.

Sarah [00:03:23] Well, let’s talk about what he has done in the short term, and then we’ll kind of start unpacking what we think that’s going to affect in the long term. So one of the first things he did that I think allowed him to move really quickly is he rescinded this 50-year-old policy requiring any changes to HHS rules to be open for public comment before implementation. So that’s why everything’s moving so fast. He kind of set up his own little executive order process. It’s how it feels to me. He kind of wanted that same power. I’m just going to sign my name to something that has to happen immediately.

Beth [00:03:58] If you think about that in the context of the types of decisions being made at HHS, that is insanity.

Sarah [00:04:05] Yes, no expertise required, don’t worry.

Beth [00:04:08] Public notice and comment is an essential part of keeping our government democratic in a system where we legitimately need agencies to make decisions that Congress can’t move fast enough to make or that are too granular. But notice and comment is fascinating. I’ve been enjoying Sarah reading some of the notice and comments. Some of the comments submitted about the East Wing of the White House.

Sarah [00:04:31] Yep, I knew what you were going to say.

Beth [00:04:31] It’s real fun to hear people with legitimate architectural expertise, historic expertise on buildings, weigh in on what the president has proposed. Now consider how in the medical context, it’s just mandatory that people from universities and medical organizations and people running practices and patients and families of patients have the opportunity to say to the government, before you make a big change, here’s something you maybe haven’t thought about. I can’t believe that he’s been able to do this.

Sarah [00:05:04] Well, here’s the thing, if he just, oh, I don’t know, kept all the expertise in the FDA, in the CDC, in the NIH in place and made this change, perhaps that would have been one thing. But that is not what he has chosen to do. He has chosen to accelerate this policy process, eliminate public comment, and also do a massive personnel purge. So let’s just walk through this quickly.

Beth [00:05:31] Okay.

Sarah [00:05:32] In March of 2025. Dr. Peter Marks, the FDA’s top vaccine regulator and director of the Center for Biologics Evaluation and Research was forced to resign. He is the person who approved all vaccines and blood products. He is widely respected across party lines. Then in June, RFK fires all 17 members of the ACIP, which is the independent expert panel that advises the CDC on vaccine policy. He wanted a clean sweep. He replaced 17 members with eight people, almost all of which are skeptical of vaccines, including one who claimed without evidence that COVID vaccine causes miscarriage. Okay, he wasn’t done. August, Dr. Susan Monerez, the newly confirmed CDC director, was fired after she refused to rubber stamp Kennedy’s vaccine directors. Four top CDC scientists resigned in solidarity. In September, Dr. Jean Marazzo, who succeeded Fauci as the director of the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Disease, filed a lawsuit and a whistleblower complaint claiming that Kennedy fired her for defending vaccines. We have gone so far, Beth, into March of this year, you have Dr. Vinay Prasad whose Kennedy’s own pick to replace Marx at the FDA, he’s departing. Even the allies are leaving. This dude’s like pretty vaccine skeptic and he left. There’s nobody left. And it was so crazy. It’s really concerning none of the NIH places have leadership. And it’s not just the top dogs. More than half of the NIH’s 27 institutes are without permanent leadership right now. So it’s the CDC, it’s FDA, it the NIH, it’s all these vaccine panels. It’s hard to keep up with because the purge is widespread. There’s like no part of this institutes that’s untouched.

Beth [00:07:29] And those are just the top level positions. I understand that the Trump administration came in saying, personnel’s policy, we are going to have political appointees at the top of everything to reflect the will of the people as expressed through the presidential election. But when you can’t hold onto the career people, when you choose not to hold onto the career of people, when you decide that the career people are a threat to your political appointee’s success. You’re not doing good leadership in any direction. There is no universe in which you actually don’t need anyone with any form of experience in the federal bureaucracy to continue in these positions, especially in a place like HHS.

Sarah [00:08:10] I mean, I think what I see most clearly, not just from the purges, but from I think one of the biggest impacts of all these purges which is the reduced recommended childhood vaccines, they took it from 17 to 11, and really set the states free to start changing their vaccine mandates. I mean the anti-vaccine aspect of MAHA, he’s a true believer. That’s for sure. Like this is a part in the midst of a massive measles outbreak, one of the biggest in like 30 years. And the fact that they continue to fight vaccines, even though it’s not popular politically and not something I think Donald Trump gives two shits about. To me, that’s like this is not a Trojan horse. This is what he came to do.

Beth [00:09:00] I think that’s right. And it is emblematic of how the second Trump term has been. We knew from the first Trump term that the Republican party was willing to go beyond what you might legitimately call a big tent to putting together disparate, sometimes contradictory interest in order to have electoral viability. And MAHA supercharged that because you have people who got excited about Robert F. Kennedy Jr who are totally supportive of vaccines, but are worried about healthy diet and exercise and water quality and air quality. This enormous coalition of people who are coming from different places. And like you said, the least popular part of that was vaccines. And that’s what they’ve done. That’s what we’ve leaned all the way into. In the second Trump administration, you see that it is the intensity of feeling more than the breadth of its popularity that drives the bus. So in MAHA, the people who feel maybe the most hardcore are the anti-vaxxers. And that’s where the energy is in this movement. Not for the people who care about bigger picture issues around MAHA.

Sarah [00:10:13] Yeah, I mean, you have one of Trump’s own pollsters saying the vaccine skepticism is politically risky with potential electoral downsides heading into the midterms because 84% of Americans, including 81% of Republicans believe childhood vaccines are safe. So the White House might be trying to pivot, but I don’t think RFK is. I think he is a true believer. I think Casey Means, as she stands up there and avoids all questions about vaccines in the midst of her confirmation hearing to become surgeon general, like they don’t like vaccines. You saw that with the moment where they tried to turn away the mRNA vaccine was in an application. Like they said, no, and then clearly Trump picked up the phone or somebody at the White House picked up the phone and said, fix it. But I think the damage to this industry, at least in the short term, if not long term, is already done. Like it’s going to play out in these private corporations. Like they cannot pour millions of dollars into vaccine research knowing that they have somebody at the top that’s so incredibly hostile. These companies are curtailing research; they’re cutting jobs because he has sent such a chill through the entire industry.

Beth [00:11:39] In addition to those ramifications for what future vaccines will be developed, you see that it does matter that the government is promoting a disfavored view of vaccines and the number of people allowing their children to get them. And that’s going to last for generations too because people who don’t follow politics closely, who rely on guidance from the government, their behavior is changing under RFK in this role.

Sarah [00:12:06] Yeah, I feel so bad. All these medical associations and pediatricians like they’re trying because this new guidance is like with the recommendation of your doctor. And yeah, most doctors are still recommending these vaccines, but to put all this pressure on them to navigate this and to persuade people and to basically be the what? Frontline of public health because the government’s saying, well, I don’t know, who knows? Could hurt you. Could not. We really just have to keep all lines of examination open is just so deeply damaging. And I cannot tell with MAHA-- I mean, I think you’re right. I think the anti-vaccine people are the most passionate, but they got really mad with this pesticide order. So I think do they care about pesticides the most? Do they care about vaccines the most? Are the vaccine people, the anti-vaccine just the loudest part of this coalition? Are they the most powerful? Because they have changed the nutritional guidelines, but I don’t see a lot of real dramatic changes when it comes to food safety. I mean, they’ve persuaded the industry some with the food dyes, but anything they’ve done as far as changing the nutritional guidance up to and including the food dyes, is not going to be outweighed. It seems to me either an impact or through the perception of MAHA with regards to like that he’s not going after the pesticides and the chemicals in the way that they thought he would.

Beth [00:13:45] It’s all a little bit more complicated when you have actual power than when you’re standing outside the system, yelling about the system. Because the pesticides aren’t just about nutrition and health, they are about having enough food in general. The agriculture lobby has problems. I’ll be the first to say so. And having enough food in the United States and across the world is complicated, especially when you go start wars of choice and compromise what we can import and how we can impart it and the cost of all of that food. I hope what they care about most in the Maha movement is being lied to, because that’s what’s happened over and over under Robert F. Kennedy Jr. He has lied to the people who put him in this position at almost every turn about what’s really important to him and who he’ll really be listening to. And how he will implement policy in this role.

Sarah [00:14:36] Well, and he overreached when it came to the medical research. And the Trump administration too, particularly to the NIH at the beginning of his term, there was like 40% cut to NIH. They were trying to really, really dial back. I feel like we read stories for months about research that was halted or ended or they cut off the funds, but Congress has really rejected almost all of this. So even his Republican allies in Congress, I don’t think are full MAHA. I don’t think that’s fixed it. I still think you have these NIH institutes that don’t have leadership, even if Congress is funding them. But you see, I think, something really interesting when it comes to this particular piece of the Trump coalition, that despite the fact that the Republicans in Congress have been willing to rubber stamp almost everything pushed back hard on this aspect.

Beth [00:15:38] I can’t find words to express how cynically I think Congress has behaved around this topic. They seized on what they felt was good branding and what they thought they were required to do.

Sarah [00:15:50] They approved his ass, for one thing.

Beth [00:15:53] That’s right. In order to stay in Trump’s good graces. You can tell that the members of the committee vetting Casey Means know. They know. They don’t suspect, they know. She’s wholly unqualified to be the Surgeon General.

Sarah [00:16:07] Yeah.

Beth [00:16:09] And still, she might be the Surgeon General.

Sarah [00:16:14] It is infuriating. I’m so mad at Bill Casteel, like the one doctor. And the way he like pulled a full Susan Collins and is like I can’t believe he did exactly what everybody told me he was going to do. Like they seemed shocked. Are they sincerely shocked? Is this an act? Tough to say. Because anybody who’d ever followed Robert F. Kennedy Jr. or paid even a modicum of attention to the warnings that came about him from his own family-- not for nothing-- should not be surprised by the way he has decimated this agency. I mean, how far into this administration we’re when somebody came with a gun to the CDC fueled by all this rhetoric and bullshit that he spouts constantly.

Beth [00:17:08] I don’t know how many times we have to learn that having a political constituency does not qualify you to run a government agency. How does the lesson over and over-- you have to have some expertise both in the subject matter and in organizational leadership to handle the budgets of these agencies, the scope of the work that they oversee and the enormous workforces that they involved. And even though they came in, I guess the theory was that DOGE would cut them down to something easier for people who do not have the requisite experience to lead. There’s still enormous agencies that do things that are hugely consequential every single day. There’s no way for someone like Robert F. Kennedy Jr to learn on the job. And that’s what he’s been trying to do and it shows everywhere.

Sarah [00:18:00] Well, and here’s the thing, and this is what I really wanted to sort of unpack with you too. I think what’s so difficult about this, especially coming off COVID, is this agency and the institutions under its umbrella, CDC, the FDA. The NIH. They were not perfect, right? They did have issues where they were deeply reluctant to admit mistakes, particularly around COVID, to communicate openly and honestly that their authority was precarious. And there were real theories of the case of our failings around public health. I mean, not that it wasn’t a resounding success. I don’t want to undercut the success of public health in the United States in the last 50 years. We’re seeing what happens. We’re seeing how successful it was because of this measles outbreak. Like people are going to be really dealing with the fallout when it’s crippled, but it wasn’t perfect. There was room for improvement around everything. I’ve read so many critiques of the FDA’s process for drug approval. Of the CDC’s communication, and even just the structure of health departments and how health departments were the front line in COVID, but nobody goes to the damn health department anymore. There’s so much that is real that was really a problem around the structure of these agencies and the leadership and the way they run. But we’re never going to get to that because we’re going to be too busy like building back the foundation. Now, I mean, maybe the hopeful take here is that in building back the foundation which we will inevitably have to do, we can address some of these changes. It’s just so frustrating to know there were real problems here and what you did was come in and create new ones.

Beth [00:20:11] I think as a public, we made a big mistake ourselves in looking at any mistakes and failure in the COVID situation and believing that they were intentional mistakes and failures. Had we not done that and had the leadership of these agencies been able to stay in place, these folks are scientists. They would have reflected on that. They would’ve studied it. It would’ve taken a long time, but we would’ve gotten, I think, real self-reflection. It was already starting to happen. We had on one of the authors of Lessons from the COVID Wars, this group of people who said, well, the government’s not studying this, so let’s do it ourselves. Where they were saying here’s what went wrong. Here’s what we can learn from this. Here’s what’s needed on a large scale for us to do better the next time this comes around. And by the way, we’re pretty sure this is going to come around again sooner than anyone would wish it to. Because we attributed malice to a situation that was struggling from inexperience with this exact kind of threat, we prevented the reflection and improvement that could have followed it and have set ourselves back and have made the challenge much greater the next time it comes around because we aren’t doing some of those things they already knew we needed to do to be better prepared next time.

Sarah [00:21:42] Well, that’s my beef with MAHA all together. That M should be for malice. Because there’s so many critiques that come from this movement that I’m like, I agree with you. I just don’t think it’s a conspiracy. Like everything, the chronic disease, the industrial process diet, the vaccines, all of it is just like there’s some mass evil man in the sky controlling all this. And, look, it makes sense to a certain extent that this should come from a man like Robert F. Kennedy Jr. who I think sees the world in a very specific way because of the deaths of his father and uncle. I do. I think that is a fundamental part of who he is and I think it has informed a lot of his worldview. Although, some of it has taken formation more recently. If you talk to somebody who only knew Robert Kennedy, I don’t know, 20 years ago when he was just starting out as an environmental attorney, they’re real confused when you try to say, “No, now he’s getting in a clodepunge in his jeans with Kid Rock because he had legitimacy.” He had real a real argument. He had a real case to be made around environmental policy. I mean, hell, Obama was thinking about appointing him to like the EPA or something at some point, and then it just went off the rails. It just became everybody’s a villain, they’re out to get us, they’re out to either make our kids sick or kill them depending on what day you talk to him. And I think some of it is because, look, he was making money off selling solutions to these problems, this villainy. Casey Means is sure as hell making a lot of money off selling solutions to this conspiracy. Like you just can’t, it’s hard to untangle the profit motivation from this theory of the case of our health and the world and vaccines and drug approval and all of it.

Beth [00:23:46] I think all the time about this conversation I had with my doctor about the growth in perimenopause and menopause treatment.

Sarah [00:23:53] Oh Lord, talk about a growth industry.

Beth [00:23:55] Woo! Yes, and that’s what we were discussing, that there are treatments out there that help some people sometimes. And my doctor was saying, “I’m glad those exist. And also if I do a treatment that helps some people sometimes, I’m not a doctor anymore, because medicine is about consistency in results and about doing things that we know work, not that we think might work.” And there’s this tough balance. You and I get criticized every time we have a healthcare conversation. First of all, someone always says how dare you discuss this without a doctor. Secondly, any sympathy we show for people who are looking for alternatives to standardized medicine is offensive to medical professionals. And I understand that more and more as we see the result of policy being made through that lens. You and I have never advocated, I don’t think, for policy being made though that lens. But now that it is being made through that lense, I do understand that sense of give an inch, people take 10 miles. And do an enormous amount of damage to our profession. And that to me is what’s happened here.

[00:25:05] I can’t speak to Robert F. Kennedy individually, but if you look at that movement as a whole, they came in riding the public sense that if something went wrong, someone must have intended for it to go wrong. Because it’s easier to believe that than to believe some problems are just hard. And it’s also easy to find someone who made a lot of money somewhere they shouldn’t have. Any action at this scale will have bad actors involved, and you can find them. And so it seems like the leadership of this movement, instead of thinking let’s root out those people who have bad motives, let’s focus on the people with good motives who’ve made mistakes or who have not solved problems yet or who had more opportunities to do better; instead of focusing on them, let’s just cash into, let’s get ours. And that’s how all of this looks to me. Like they have capitalized on people’s conspiracy oriented beliefs about the world and realized those beliefs at the same time.

Sarah [00:26:13] Yeah. And it makes sense that it would find such fertile ground inside an administration that’s all about transactionalism. Again, I do think there’s, particularly when it comes to vaccines, some true believer. But I think it’s there. And also, if tomorrow ProPublica had a big old piece on how his tearing down of this vaccine schedule was actually about the growth of some alternative vaccine research or approach or drug, I wouldn’t be surprised either. You know what I mean? Like if this was all in service of propping up some alternative industry, I would not be surprised. I think he’s a true believer, but I also think he is a scammer. And I definitely think Casey Means is a scammer. So it’s hard. It’s hard and also this entire department contains so much, you need to be an expert to understand this vaccine panel. You need to an expert to understand the FDA drug approval process. So it’s like that’s why it’s so hard to see clearly with regards to him and his leadership of this department because it is all so complex, but it has real-world impact. I can’t tell if it’s a true believer because everything in this administration is so corrupt, and some mix of true believer in Charlton that it’s like trying to see through a fog while you know that you’re going to trip over something that’s going to cause bodily harm to you or your children any moment.

Beth [00:28:02] One of the exchanges that Casey Means had in that Senate hearing with Susan Collins was about her book. And Casey Means talks about using psychedelics for her own healing. And Susan Collins is like is that something you’d recommend as such in general?

Clip: Susan Collins [00:28:20] According to your book, in 2021, you began using illicit psychedelic mushrooms. So my questions to you are twofold. One, do you stand by what you said in your book encouraging people to try psychedelics? And second, as Surgeon General, should you be confirmed, how would you speak to the American people about the use of illicit drugs?

Clip: Casey Means [00:28:58] Thank you so much, Senator Collins, and I also thank you sincerely for engaging so deeply with my work and learning about me. This is a very important question, and I would start by just saying that I believe what I would say as a private citizen is, in many cases, different than what I would say is a public health official, joining a team where the purpose of this role is to communicate absolutely the best evidence-based science to the American people to keep them safe, thriving and healthy. And when it comes to psychedelic therapy for mental health issues, I think the science is still emerging. And so it would certainly not be a recommendation to the America people to do that under no circumstances. I do believe that there is exciting work being done in this area that needs to continue on psychedelic therapies for PTSD and veterans, for mental health issues. And some of the researchers who are doing this work have said it’s some of the most promising and exciting of their entire careers. So I look forward to following that, but to be very clear under no circumstances would I recommend that to the American people in this role.

Sarah [00:30:12] Too late, baby. It’s on the internet.

Beth [00:30:14] I listened to that and I thought, there’s a version of that that I have a lot of sympathy for. I can imagine a surgeon general nominee who used cannabis to manage pain and said I took this risk on myself because I was able to analyze the risk and understand it. We’re not there yet for the entirety of the population and I have responsibility in this role to think about the entirety of the population. There’s a portion of that that I grace for. In every possible way, this Department of Health and Human Services and this administration as a whole has closed all my grace stores. Where there were opportunities for us to try a different approach that thinks more expansively, that does have room for experimentation, they have proven to not be responsible enough to have that room with this much power at their disposal.

Sarah [00:31:09] Well, while we live through the consequences of their irresponsibility, we did want to close with a hopeful story, which is there is a new organization called Grandparents for Vaccines. The Bulwark did a big report on this. Where basically a particular generation of Americans are worried about societal amnesia. They remember what it was like when people didn’t all get vaccines and children were exposed in vast numbers to dangerous infectious diseases. The organization says we represent the 67 million American grandparents who want the best for their grandchildren, united by how vaccines changed our lives for the better. And they tell the story, this poor woman’s sister who got encephalitis from measles and really never fully recovered and was so limited in her choices and abilities and the sister was brokenhearted her whole life that the sibling missed out on what she was able to pursue because of this disease and so they’re trying to share like we remember, let us remind you that children were exposed to measles and whooping cough and all these infectious diseases. It was terrible. They died. They had impacts that were felt for the rest of their lives. And I just so respect the idea that, yes, this is a huge government agency. Yes, this man is irresponsible at best, and villainous at worst. Yes, it can feel like if you don’t have the right letters after your name, this process is intimidating, it’s overwhelming, they eliminated the place that we actually could insert public comment, but we’re still not just going to sit on the sidelines, even though our government clearly is, as measles runs rampant across our country, and we’re going to try to do something about it. And I just think that is so incredibly encouraging.

Beth [00:33:23] I don’t think we can underestimate the impact that it has for this generation to speak on a topic like this because our fundamental issue is trust. And if you look at vaccines, yes, there are businesses and people who’ve made a lot of money from the development of vaccines. That fact does not change how many lives have been saved by vaccines. It doesn’t change how good for our overall economy it’s been to have vaccines. It doesn’t change how much suffering has been avoided because of vaccines. We have to find a way to trust each other. I am concerned that as we make medical advancements beyond our wildest dreams by using tools like artificial intelligence to speed up what humans would have accomplished anyway. That’s my real insight about AI over the past couple of weeks. I feel like AI just speeds up what we could have done anyway, because it takes everything that we’ve done already and helps us get access to it in new ways. And that is going to lead to unbelievable opportunity medically. And we really need previous generations to say, yeah, people made money off of us too. And thank God they did because the results of it were incredible. And how we rebuild trust around that I don’t know, but it seems to start with personal stories like this and I’m really grateful for this initiative.

Sarah [00:34:50] Well, we will continue to try desperately to keep up with this piece of an administration that feels like drinking out of a fire hose. We look forward to all your comments and insights. I know a lot of you have the expertise we are missing with regards to this particular department. So we’ll keep the conversation going on Substack. Up next, we’re going to talk about the Oscars. Beth, it’s our yearly exercise. Did you watch the Oscars or any of the movies nominated?

Beth [00:35:27] Of course, I did not. I am here to listen with interest to you talk about the Oscars, and ask questions where they occur to me.

Sarah [00:35:34] Well, that’s not true because you watched K-Pop Demon Hunter.

Beth [00:35:37] I did. I did not like it, I’m sorry.

Sarah [00:35:39] You didn’t like it?

Beth [00:35:40] No, I think the music’s really fun, but I did not enjoy the movie and would never sit down to watch it again, no.

Sarah [00:35:45] Well, it won best song.

Beth [00:35:47] Yeah, which it seems deserved. Like that was a great song.

Sarah [00:35:51] Did you watch all the celebrities have to participate in the light show in the crowd? Because that was my favorite part.

Beth [00:35:56] My friend Hannah posted that it was hilarious to see some of the most famous people in the world dancing to this song that her four-year-olds at Head Start loved to sing every day. And I like that, that’s great for us.

Sarah [00:36:10] I feel like some of them opted out, was like, no, we’ll not be waving your light up orb for the performance of Golden. I don’t think Michael B. Jordan did it.

Beth [00:36:19] Come on.

Sarah [00:36:20] I was looking close. Maybe he didn’t have one. Maybe he gave it to his mama, who he brought us his date.

Beth [00:36:25] I’m going to hope that that’s the answer. Take the fun when you can find it. That’s all I can say.

Sarah [00:36:29] He won.

Beth [00:36:30] Yes, he did.

Sarah [00:36:31] I’m assuming you saw that. Have you seen Sinners?

Beth [00:36:33] No.

Sarah [00:36:34] Okay, you should see it though. It’s not that scary.

Beth [00:36:37] You told me this and I hear you, and I’m not going to. I’m so sorry. I respect you and love you, but no.

Sarah [00:36:41] But it’s about music, you love music.

Beth [00:36:42] I do, and do not want to see something that’s even on the edge of scary.

Sarah [00:36:47] I mean, it’s definitely on the edge, there’s vampires. You don’t watch vampire movies? I feel like vampires are like an exception for most people.

Beth [00:36:52] I don’t. I don’t make that exception.

Sarah [00:36:55] Okay. Did you watch Hamnet?

Beth [00:36:59] No.

Sarah [00:37:00] Are you going to watch Hamnet?

Beth [00:37:01] Maybe. But right now, can I tell you the truth? Oscar season starts to feel like homework because of this conversation for me. And I just got enough homework. I love homework. So tell me what you liked about Hamnet. Because I’ve heard you say that you liked it several times and I don’t really know much about it.

Sarah [00:37:20] Have you read the book?

Beth [00:37:20] No

Sarah [00:37:21] We should read the book by Maggie O’Farrill. It’s beautiful.

Beth [00:37:24] More homework, thanks.

Sarah [00:37:25] It’s historical fiction, but Shakespeare had a son named Hamnet who died of-- oh how relevant-- an infectious disease. He got the plague and died at like, gosh, eight, nine, 10, 11, somewhere, they’re really young. And this is like a fictionalization of Shakespeare’s wife journey through grief. Agnes I think is her name in the movie. And then his journey and how it comes together in the performance of him. It’s a beautiful book. I actually liked the movie better than the book, which doesn’t happen very often for me.

Beth [00:38:06] Unusual, yeah.

Sarah [00:38:07] Mainly because Jessie Buckley, who won best actress, is so good. The final scene of that film in Shakespeare’s Globe Theater with this performance of Hamnet is so incredible, so affecting. It will rip your heart right out of your chest in the best possible way. I watched it with Griffin and Amos. So I watched with my sons who I was clinging to and weeping. It’s just a really beautiful reflection on grief. And I just really, really, really, really, really loved it. I would have been happy for Hamnet to win best picture, but it did not. One Battle After Another won best picture. Which I know you have also not seen.

Beth [00:38:43] I have not seen it. I will watch that one. I promise. You told me several times I need to.

Sarah [00:38:46] I really feel you got to watch it. I did not know that the director, Paul Thomas Anderson, was married to Maya Rudolph. Learned that last night when he stood up and accepted an award and gave her a big old kiss on the mouth.

Beth [00:38:57] Good for her. I love Maya Rudolph.

Sarah [00:38:59] Also, Amy Madigan, who you know as the wife in Field of Dreams; remember her?

Beth [00:39:05] Yes.

Sarah [00:39:05] So she won her first Oscar and I did not know that she was married Ed Harris. Been married for like 40 years to Ed Harris

Beth [00:39:10] I did see like an adorable picture of him looking at her when she won the Oscar.

Sarah [00:39:14] Very sweet. Loved it. Loved her win.

Beth [00:39:17] Well, hang on. How did you feel about One Battle After Another winning over Hamnet? Did you think that was deserved? Was it a close call to you or would you have given it to Hamnet.

Sarah [00:39:27] I would have been happy if Hamnet won. It’s like more my style of film, but One Battle After Another is very good. I went to the theater to see it by myself because it was like such chatter when it came out. Like this movie’s a big deal and I thought it was really great. I don’t even like Leonardo DiCaprio and I liked him in this. I found Benicio Del Toro an absolute damn delight in that film. Would have loved for him to win best supporting actor. It was just really good and different and new and interesting, especially around a topic like politics and activism and yeah, you got to see it. It’s really good. I really liked it.

Beth [00:40:07] Were there any awards that you were like, this just totally missed the mark? No.

Sarah [00:40:11] No, it was very predictable Oscars. Like even if it’s maybe who I wouldn’t have voted for, it just was a very, very predictable roundup. They did have a tie in I think short film or something. That was kind of exciting. The end memorial section was really good and really well done. Barbra Streisand sang. She doesn’t do that much anymore in public.

Beth [00:40:31] She doesn’t.

Sarah [00:40:32] It was very exciting. In her tribute to Robert Redford, Rachel McAdams got a little proclaimed in her tribute to Diane Keaton, which was so sweet. They did a beautiful tribute to Rob Ryan where all the stars of all his many films came out. I thought it was a good show. That was well produced. I thought It moved quickly. I kind of got a disjointed overall view because it kept getting interrupted for weather alerts where I live, but I thought the set was really beautiful. It was like an interesting set and the way they put the nominees up behind the presenters was really, really good. I wanted to know if you saw the controversy around Timothée Chalamet.

Beth [00:41:06] The only controversy I’m aware of with him is that he said that ballet and opera are boring and no one wants to watch them.

Sarah [00:41:12] Yes. Now, if Griffin was here, he would start screaming. He says that’s not what he was saying. He was just saying that he doesn’t want movies to go the way of Oscar and ballet, which is sort of like an elite experience. But I told Griffin the issue is that he said all this during a town hall with Matthew McConaughey. Who the hell sat around and said, you know what we need? A town hall between Timothy Chalamet and Matthew McConnaughey. Nobody needs that.

Beth [00:41:37] I’ve got to be honest with you, when I heard about you tell Griffin that when I heard about this I immediately thought, I doubt that’s the full story. I don’t think Timothy disrespects either of those art forms. This has to be just a clip and cut and repackage and now we have a viral controversy on our hands. So I was with Timothy the whole time. I knew he didn’t mean that.

Sarah [00:41:59] Well, and I was reading Tom and Lorenzo, who I love. I love their takes on the red carpet looks, but they were saying that that came out after voting was closed. It didn’t affect his loss under best actor. That really he’s been nominated a lot for a 30 year old and he didn’t campaign in the traditional ways. He did things that seemed like he was above the campaigning. And because he’s so young and so talented, that was not going to hit for him if he doesn’t want to get stuck in like poor Diane Warren territory. Do you know Diane Warren?

Beth [00:42:30] No.

Sarah [00:42:30] She is a songwriter, Beth. She has written some of the greatest love songs, particularly in movies. But she’s an incredible songwriter. She has been nominated 17 times and never won. It’s like real Susan Lucci territory here.

Beth [00:42:47] Yeah, I know Susan Luccci.

Sarah [00:42:49] Yeah, Susan Luccy, All My Children, who eventually won on her 21st nomination. I just need Dianne Warren to win, man. Or I need him to stop nominating her. Just the one or the other. Damn, give the woman a break.

Beth [00:43:02] These Whitewell situations with awards like Beyonce with the Grammys with album of the year. And then when they do win, it cast a pall over the wind because people are like is this a makeup win or did you really win for this? I hate that.

Sarah [00:43:15] Well, and it happens a lot. It happens where they look back and think like, well, they didn’t really deserve that award. Or maybe they deserve it for this other role that they really won for. I don’t really think Leonardo DiCaprio ultimately deserved-- his best performance ever is for that weird ass movie where he fought the bear. Like they just felt like they had to give it to him which is a bummer. I thought one of the best moments is when Paul Thomas Anderson said if you look at the 1975 best picture nominees, it was like Dog Day Afternoon, The Godfather, Jaws, like it was an incredible roundup. They had to pick somebody, but it doesn’t really mean that it’s the best. Like it’s very complicated when ultimately it’s winner take all, especially in some years that are thick with very deserving nominees, which I would say this year was. I think it was a really powerful, it was pretty strong year, which is maybe why it was so predictable. I don’t know.

Beth [00:44:09] When you said it was predictable if you think that’s indicative of them doing a good job or a bad job, right? There’s a universe where I could see that meaning. Yeah, there were clear winners and they picked them, but maybe it means the Oscars have a clear perspective that always comes through, that always wins out.

Sarah [00:44:23] Well, what was interesting is they changed the way the Academy voted and it was like they used tech, like if you couldn’t vote unless you’d actually watch the films, which was super interesting.

Beth [00:44:38] Well, that’s good.

Sarah [00:44:38] Yeah, I think that’s really good. I think it prevents some of what you get where it’s like, well, I’m just rewarding this person because I know their reputation. So I thought that was kind of interesting, and maybe that made it a little more predictable as far as the politics of who would win or like lessening the politics. Although I think Amy Madigan was much like we’re going to reward you because you’ve been at this for so long and this was an incredible performance. I don’t know. The other interesting thing this year is they had a new category, which was casting. This has been a critique that this is like a fundamental piece of film that isn’t rewarded. What I thought was interesting is they put all the nominees up there and all but one were women. Clearly a real gender component about who’s doing the casting.

Beth [00:45:26] I’m so glad you brought this up because it gives me a chance to talk about The Pit again, which I know you love talking about. I was just watching this video about how many of the people on the pit are really stage actors and that they cast it that way intentionally because that experience of moving through real time on stage translates really well to the way that they’re making The Pit. But I was watching that with so much interest thinking, wow, what a hard job to figure out, especially in a show like that with so many people. Who has chemistry with the other actors and who can handle this kind of dialog, which is so complicated. And yeah, what an important part of making any production actually work. So I’m glad they’re recognizing it at the Oscars.

Sarah [00:46:09] Yeah, for sure. I think that that’s true. And the New York Times had this great write-up where you could vote on whether this was good casting or not. Not just this year, but past ones. Because there are some performances where you’re like that was not the right person. Or you’ll hear they thought about this actress, but ultimately it went with Julia Roberts, and you’re like, oh my God, I cannot imagine Michelle Pfeiffer in the lead role of Pretty Woman. Or whatever it is, you know what I mean? I think those are such interesting thought experiments. And I do think it is key. I mean, a bad casting is going to ruin it. Like, that’s going to break the film if something’s not quite right. So I think it’s cool that they’re making this new award. I would like a long read on why most casting agents are women. If somebody could write that for me, I think that would be fascinating. Thank you so much.

Beth [00:46:58] I would read that and it wouldn’t feel like homework. That interests me greatly.

Sarah [00:47:02] Did you see any of the red carpet looks that stood out to you?

Beth [00:47:05] I haven’t seen the red-carpet looks this year.

Sarah [00:47:08] Beth, I mean, what are you doing with your life?

Beth [00:47:09] I know. I’m so disappointing, I am sorry.

Sarah [00:47:11] Well, Jessie Buckley was my favorite, the best actress winner. Was like Grace Kelly send up, but modern, really beautiful. There were lots of beautiful gowns and all that, but I really enjoy that the men have diversified so much you don’t just get one tux after another. Michael B. Jordan had like a diamond brooch on the back of his neck. That was really interesting. A lot of the men were wearing like diamond brooches on their lapels, like a lot of heavy jewelry that I thought was really interested. I like that the men have a lot more freedom to pursue fashion over the last several years, probably decade. I think that makes the award show ceremonies that much more interesting. Not to you who’s never going to watch them anyway, but to me.

Beth [00:47:57] No, well, I’m happy to hear you talk about them. I had a big full weekend, or I would have tried to prepare a little bit more for this segment than I clearly did. But I wanted to ask about the fashion. Was there a perspective in what the women were wearing? Sometimes it’s very classic Hollywood or throwback or futuristic. Did you see any clear through line?

Sarah [00:48:14] There was a lot of like princess dresses. I thought Elle Fanning looked like she was going to a wedding. It was beautiful, but that’s not my favorite look for an award show. It can get like sort of bridal; you know what I mean? So there were a lot like big gowns. There was also a lot feathers and fur in a way that I didn’t quite enjoy. Demi Moore had on this very like black feathery thing. Tiana Taylor had on like a fur ball gown. They’re big, all of them are big. There was lot of trains. There were a lot like bustles and they were big dresses. So when somebody like Zoe Saldana walked out in this like really sleek minimal thing, it had a lot of impact. I actually thought Zendaya looked incredible. Hers was very sleek and brown, which was the color you didn’t see a lot of. She just so pretty. She’s so pretty.

Beth [00:49:01] She is beautiful. And she is beautiful in brown tones. Honestly, putting her in the Dune movies, she couldn’t look any better in the esthetic of that landscape.

Sarah [00:49:13] So there was a lot of that. It’s interesting to see sort of like the themes that pop up over and over again, but there was a lot of beautiful dresses. A couple of big misses. Misty Copeland, who was the prima ballerina, she was retired, and she was in the performance of Sinners, which was kind of fun considering Timothy’s comment, but she had a red carpet look that was like big miss for me. Just, it was bad. It was bad from top to bottom, and she’s a beautiful woman. But overall, I mean, it was a strong showing, I’d say for sure.

Beth [00:49:41] Good. Well, I am going to see an early screening of Project Hail Mary tonight, which sounds like it’s going to be both a commercial and critical success. So I’ll report back on that sometime.

Sarah [00:49:50] All right, that’s good. Well, we look forward to hearing your takes on RFK and vaccines and red carpet looks because whatever strikes your fancy, we want to hear from you on Substack. Thank you so much for listening today. We will be back in your ears with another new episode on Friday. Don’t forget to check out our show notes to get your tickets to Minneapolis and reserve one of the hotel rooms right there at the Hyatt. We can’t wait to see you there. Until Friday, keep it nuanced y’all.

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Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

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