These last two flashbacks have been hard for me, probably because these two years were some of the most traumatic of my life. Pregnancy after a miscarriage, birth, and newborn stage in the middle of a pandemic was traumatic. Throw in long haul covid and the loss of deep relationships because of politics and the ways we handled the pandemic differently because of pregnancy, life with a newborn and long haul covid. It makes me weepy. Maybe we got things wrong and we could have done things differently if we’d known what we know now but we didn’t know then so I just have so much empathy for 2020-2021 us.
I'm in the COVID baby cohort too. The way Beth described pandemic days reminding her of having a newborn brought back all the feelings from actually having a newborn in those pandemic days. There is so much of 2020/2021 I don't feel like I actually remember, between the sleeplessness, stress (lets be real, trauma) of being isolated from my family at the moments I needed them most, the loss of beloved family members (not to COVID, but 3 of my 4 grandparents died in 2020-21)...it's all a blur. I feel like I was always present with my son in those days and yet I have no memory of being a brand-new mom. I so agree with your ending statement - we were just doing our very best.
I’m not sure why I woke up on a Monday morning and thought “time to dive into 2021”, but here we are. I’m realizing, poor memory and sense of time and all of that, that I need to refresh my memory. Any recommendations of something that balances specificity and brevity that goes back through the decisions around covid, and when they were made?
Sarah’s pep talk resonated strongly with me:
“you don't have to prove that you're a good person through the choices you make in this incredibly difficult situation.” Because that’s absolutely what I was trying to do, and I was judging whether I thought others were doing the same. It would be hard not to do that, but whenever it pops up, I want to try!
I remember someone floating the possibility, not sure who (maybe here?) about just repeating the year, school wise. Like everyone just getting a do-over, the entire school being held back a year. I wonder if that would have worked out. So many ifs.
Do Americans as a whole need to work on coming to terms with their own mortality and on learning to stop trying to control everything? Yes. Is deciding that we are all going to die someday anyway so we shouldn't ever try to mitigate harm ever the solution to that? Absolutely not.
I agree that no country handled it perfectly and I think still now which countries you think did better than others depends on what measure you prioritize. I keep going back to preventing (ok delaying) death.
We moved from the US (South Carolina) to France in the summer of 2021 and things were pretty different. We had to have proof of vaccination for restaurants or really any gatherings. People in SC talked about lockdowns but we didn’t actually have any. France had 2 in 2020 and one in 2021 (before we arrived). They only closed schools for a total of 10 weeks - they required masks in 1st grade and up and if there was a case in a class that class immediately closed and kids had to test negative before going back. Kids who tested positive had to stay home for a full week. I think the ability to make those decisions at a national level made a difference. As you might expect, there are people who think they kept schools open too much. https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/europe/france-school-deaths-covid-cmd-intl
I just looked it up and as of July 2022 the US had 3,099.62 deaths per million people and France had 2,115.56. So it’s interesting that they were able to (for example) keeps schools open more than parts of the US while still keeping the rate of death lower, but an overall US rate maybe doesn’t tell us much since things were so different in different places. The CDC has the rates by state but I don’t have the information to draw any conclusions-
One of the most disappointing aspects of the politicization of the pandemic is that we won’t be able to learn anything from it. Can we compare states that were “open” and states that were “closed”? Are the differences significant? Did masks work? Did testing help? Our schools opened back up august 2020 and kept mitigation strategies in place for that whole year. I feel that there was not any spread at schools. Everything was dropped August 2021 and well, there was spread. But if that was true for other places what can we learn from this. Maybe we can keep the schools open and everyone safe. Or if the data shows otherwise we know we have to look for other options.
What I am mad about as someone kind of in this field is that the “people in charge” did not take the science deniers into account. From reading past pandemics and outbreaks, that should have been expected and planned for. Not just tell everyone this is what we are doing get on board.
Hey! People are studying this, but given where we’re at right now, I’m not sure what will break through to people with power to change policy/ the public at large. The If Books Could Kill podcast did a few episodes on this, and while I’m not so into their tone (less generous than PP), you could also just look up their references. https://open.spotify.com/episode/1YsXCI7YtLgpZmErNygkr1?si=qY8VnyqBTiiB2ynrGEWLeQ
Was hoping we had some listeners in the public health field who could maybe comment on this topic. But maybe you are all tired and I respect that.
Sorry. I’m sure that people are studying it. But I’m not sure what the everyday public will learn from it. That’s what I mean. Like if I hear a stat that masks did not work will I even believe it? I don’t know.
I’ve listened to one of the books can kill podcast on the lab leak theory but not the others. I think we just need more time. I tried to read that lessons from the covid war after the author was on the podcast but it was tooooo soooooon.
Thank you for this episode. I feel like I had so many comments, but didn't want to stop listening, so I'm sure I can't remember them all. I try to look at our reaction to Covid as we did the best we could with the knowledge we had at the time. Unfortunately, I think the division and questioning of science or those that didn't follow rules exactly like you, could have been mitigated by a strong leadership at the top. We were already divided as a country and in the tail end of an election cycle. Had we had a leader that could clearly articulate positions and not be afraid of hard things and hard evaluations from the beginning that may have made the process smoother. The Biden administration also has to assume some responsibility as well, again due to a clear, strong, unifying message -without blaming the other party, maybe we wouldn't be where we are today. The school question is hard and it definitely didn't help our students, but communities are different throughout the country and cultural differences also impacted this. Covid did affect some populations more than others and families and kids were scared to be in public spaces. I just hope that someday we can put aside the division and really sit down and evaluate what we did well during our response to Covid and what we didn't do well to ensure we have a path forward in the future. Keep up the great work ladies and enjoy your celebration in Cincinnati this weekend.
Great show! I might have to comment more than once to touch on all the points. One of the happier moments for me in 2021 was getting back to being in the world. We bought my daughter tickets to see Harry Styles for Christmas 2019 and in October of 2021 we finally got to see the show! We had to show proof of vaccination and wear masks to get in. It was the first time she and I had been in that kind of mass of humanity in two years. I went in having a hard time shredding some of those acquired fears of being close to humans you didn’t know and it turned into one of the most uplifting nights of my life especially to share it with my daughter. The crowd was mostly young women. You could not believe the amount of sequins, feather boas, and sheer joy all around. Even the pre show music was a constant chorus of people singing and dancing (the singalong to Bohemian Rhapsody was particularly amazing). Here’s a video of the medley he did of Treat People with Kindness and You Don’t Know You’re Beautiful. There’s nothing like a mass of unbridled young female joy to heal some wounds. I got weepy just watching the video again. Try to stick it out to the end. https://youtu.be/2UJ6A2m3YYM?si=VLV3l2vge-5bPeJp
1) when you started the episode with Jan 6th, I literally said aloud, “I forgot about January 6th.” And I was someone who watched all the Jan 6th committee hearings! If that isn’t a testament to Trump’s ability to make sure nothing sticks to him, then I don’t know what is.
2) there is a direct line from the politicization of science in 2020-2021 and the Dems insisting we unquestioningly trust the science to the defunding of scientific research we are seeing now. Anyone telling you to never question science is wrong. Science is built on skepticism and questions. I wish I saw that then.
3) I lived in Wyoming during covid. Everything stayed mostly open. But the 2021 school year, we had to go spit in a tube for a covid test once a week. Undergrads living on campus had to do it twice a week. Such a weird time. I only stopped masking last year.
Re: 2) unfortunately we also had a lot of people spreading misinformation (often deliberately, often grifting off of it) which I think is partly why people really committed to the “trust the science” pov. I’m not sure the best way to counter that. 😞 Anti vax stuff has been going on for decades -the individuals who embrace it, I can understand their fear and misgivings, but the people who profit off of it, don’t get me started. (Important personal context: my sister has autism and I’m like why do we keep spending money to keep proving vaccines don’t cause autism instead of using the money to make life more liveable for people with disabilities and their families… 🫠)
Truth. My husband has autism and the people trying to pathologize it and prove that vaccines cause it (when it’s been shown they don’t, over and over) can get all the way out of here.
Also, 2021 was the year of the Afghanistan withdrawal. I think that is still rippling out today, especially when thinking about the decision to bomb Iran and America’s role in the world.
I can feel all the judgmentalism I had for everyone who didn’t do things the way I did—if you took more precautions you were being ridiculous and extreme and if you took fewer precautions you were being reckless. I can see that I should have had more grace for people just trying to get through a difficult time. I think what made it hard was it didn’t feel like everyone in charge was making decisions in good faith.
This. It's like the joke about how anyone who drives slower than me is a granny and anyone who drives faster is a maniac. So easy to consider ourselves normal and correct and everyone else making different choices unhinged.
I started working remotely in 2020 when COVID hit and continued to work remote throughout 2021. There were a lot of opinions about if remote work was going to be the thing some companies need to start offering or if we need to all get back to old days of going into office 5 days a week for no reason other than to take up space in a building. I do remember this being tied to the Biden Administration in some way and if administration was going to get us back on track again so we call can go back to work in an office full time.
Looking back at 2021 and Covid I was so happy I was living in Texas during that time. 😆 I know that may seem weird, but Texas did not lock down hardcore like a lot of states did for Covid. I thought at the time what not a good idea because I was seeing other states doing it. But looking back, it was wise Texas did not do it because we didn't need too. That being said, we had that horrible freeze that year that was brutal.
For me 2021 was the year that entertainment really started to die for me in movies and music. Everything was so political it was so hard for me to enjoy or get interested in anything. I'm still struggling with that now.
THE FREEZE. Yes, I’m in Texas, too, and that’s the standout event for me for sure. I felt like that, combined with COVID, really broke the “spell of solidity” for me. Seeing our city manager come out (after we had lost water as well) and basically say, “good luck” made me realize for the first time that no one was looking out for me. It was on me, and I had been completely unprepared (no firewood, bottled water, etc.)
Our kids were fully back in school that year (masked, I believe), and my husband and I were back at work at a university. But we were still being quite careful personally. We ended up having to go stay with friends who had power, and I remember being so thrilled with having an “excuse” to be with friends. That really made me start questioning my overall logic. It was fine for us to go to work and school and interact with literally hundreds of people but not to go to friends’ houses? What were we doing?
I live in North Dallas and our family were very lucky. We got through the freeze OK. A lot of people I knew in my city didn’t.
For me, the biggest worry for me about Covid was myself and my husband getting it because we are both high risk. We did eventually get it and we got through it OK.
It seemed like everybody around me didn’t seem too scared about Covid that much. Looking back on it, there were so many mixed messages about Covid during that time. My biggest regret that I was on Twitter a lot because that is where you got the latest breaking news. I wish I had never been on it during that time.
I think Sarah is right that many of us, not all but many, are in a new place that we haven't been before - that we can choose our people because we can move or have other supports available to us, and I'm not sure that it's good for us. Stability in the people we know can be of great value, but it's one that we don't speak to as much. I am continuing to ponder this.
I do think the Joni Ernst comment is a worldview but I’m struggling exactly how to counter that. I don’t think people “want children to die” but I think there are many who think what happens to other people isn’t their problem. Maybe it’s because they feel like taking care of “me and mine” is already overwhelming. Or maybe it’s because they subscribe to a specific worldview in which all is preordained and the elect are going to heaven and the rest are screwed anyway so what’s the point. Frankly, as a Jewish person, her doubling down on that via her completely unnecessary video in that cemetery and presenting that any complainer should instead accept Jesus was a real oof and a reminder that people like her do not see people like me as people, and is a back of mind fear that personally always makes me edgy.
But how do we yes, prevent suffering. I wish that was a paramount value and a discussion we could actually have.
As I contend with my own theology, I frequently confront this quote from Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel: “…morally speaking, there is no limit to the concern one must feel for the suffering of human beings, that indifference to evil is worse than evil itself, that in a free society, some are guilty, but all are responsible.” And where does my searching for someone else’s guilt blind me to my own responsibility for others in this world? We get obsessed with looking for who is guilty, but maybe that’s not asking the right question.
Beth: isn't maturity being able to handle all the things together at one time.
Sarah: well sure if maturity means laughing and cussing more.
Beth: you use the tools available to you.
Sarah: I'm getting very mature
Lolol, both of you S and B are so funny. Spit take on Beth's and open rofl with Sarah's.
These last two flashbacks have been hard for me, probably because these two years were some of the most traumatic of my life. Pregnancy after a miscarriage, birth, and newborn stage in the middle of a pandemic was traumatic. Throw in long haul covid and the loss of deep relationships because of politics and the ways we handled the pandemic differently because of pregnancy, life with a newborn and long haul covid. It makes me weepy. Maybe we got things wrong and we could have done things differently if we’d known what we know now but we didn’t know then so I just have so much empathy for 2020-2021 us.
I'm in the COVID baby cohort too. The way Beth described pandemic days reminding her of having a newborn brought back all the feelings from actually having a newborn in those pandemic days. There is so much of 2020/2021 I don't feel like I actually remember, between the sleeplessness, stress (lets be real, trauma) of being isolated from my family at the moments I needed them most, the loss of beloved family members (not to COVID, but 3 of my 4 grandparents died in 2020-21)...it's all a blur. I feel like I was always present with my son in those days and yet I have no memory of being a brand-new mom. I so agree with your ending statement - we were just doing our very best.
To the societal long covid point-
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna220048
I’m not sure why I woke up on a Monday morning and thought “time to dive into 2021”, but here we are. I’m realizing, poor memory and sense of time and all of that, that I need to refresh my memory. Any recommendations of something that balances specificity and brevity that goes back through the decisions around covid, and when they were made?
Sarah’s pep talk resonated strongly with me:
“you don't have to prove that you're a good person through the choices you make in this incredibly difficult situation.” Because that’s absolutely what I was trying to do, and I was judging whether I thought others were doing the same. It would be hard not to do that, but whenever it pops up, I want to try!
I remember someone floating the possibility, not sure who (maybe here?) about just repeating the year, school wise. Like everyone just getting a do-over, the entire school being held back a year. I wonder if that would have worked out. So many ifs.
Do Americans as a whole need to work on coming to terms with their own mortality and on learning to stop trying to control everything? Yes. Is deciding that we are all going to die someday anyway so we shouldn't ever try to mitigate harm ever the solution to that? Absolutely not.
I agree that no country handled it perfectly and I think still now which countries you think did better than others depends on what measure you prioritize. I keep going back to preventing (ok delaying) death.
We moved from the US (South Carolina) to France in the summer of 2021 and things were pretty different. We had to have proof of vaccination for restaurants or really any gatherings. People in SC talked about lockdowns but we didn’t actually have any. France had 2 in 2020 and one in 2021 (before we arrived). They only closed schools for a total of 10 weeks - they required masks in 1st grade and up and if there was a case in a class that class immediately closed and kids had to test negative before going back. Kids who tested positive had to stay home for a full week. I think the ability to make those decisions at a national level made a difference. As you might expect, there are people who think they kept schools open too much. https://www.cnn.com/2021/05/04/europe/france-school-deaths-covid-cmd-intl
I just looked it up and as of July 2022 the US had 3,099.62 deaths per million people and France had 2,115.56. So it’s interesting that they were able to (for example) keeps schools open more than parts of the US while still keeping the rate of death lower, but an overall US rate maybe doesn’t tell us much since things were so different in different places. The CDC has the rates by state but I don’t have the information to draw any conclusions-
https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/sosmap/covid19_mortality_final/COVID19.htm
One of the most disappointing aspects of the politicization of the pandemic is that we won’t be able to learn anything from it. Can we compare states that were “open” and states that were “closed”? Are the differences significant? Did masks work? Did testing help? Our schools opened back up august 2020 and kept mitigation strategies in place for that whole year. I feel that there was not any spread at schools. Everything was dropped August 2021 and well, there was spread. But if that was true for other places what can we learn from this. Maybe we can keep the schools open and everyone safe. Or if the data shows otherwise we know we have to look for other options.
What I am mad about as someone kind of in this field is that the “people in charge” did not take the science deniers into account. From reading past pandemics and outbreaks, that should have been expected and planned for. Not just tell everyone this is what we are doing get on board.
Hey! People are studying this, but given where we’re at right now, I’m not sure what will break through to people with power to change policy/ the public at large. The If Books Could Kill podcast did a few episodes on this, and while I’m not so into their tone (less generous than PP), you could also just look up their references. https://open.spotify.com/episode/1YsXCI7YtLgpZmErNygkr1?si=qY8VnyqBTiiB2ynrGEWLeQ
Was hoping we had some listeners in the public health field who could maybe comment on this topic. But maybe you are all tired and I respect that.
Sorry. I’m sure that people are studying it. But I’m not sure what the everyday public will learn from it. That’s what I mean. Like if I hear a stat that masks did not work will I even believe it? I don’t know.
I’ve listened to one of the books can kill podcast on the lab leak theory but not the others. I think we just need more time. I tried to read that lessons from the covid war after the author was on the podcast but it was tooooo soooooon.
😞
Thank you for this episode. I feel like I had so many comments, but didn't want to stop listening, so I'm sure I can't remember them all. I try to look at our reaction to Covid as we did the best we could with the knowledge we had at the time. Unfortunately, I think the division and questioning of science or those that didn't follow rules exactly like you, could have been mitigated by a strong leadership at the top. We were already divided as a country and in the tail end of an election cycle. Had we had a leader that could clearly articulate positions and not be afraid of hard things and hard evaluations from the beginning that may have made the process smoother. The Biden administration also has to assume some responsibility as well, again due to a clear, strong, unifying message -without blaming the other party, maybe we wouldn't be where we are today. The school question is hard and it definitely didn't help our students, but communities are different throughout the country and cultural differences also impacted this. Covid did affect some populations more than others and families and kids were scared to be in public spaces. I just hope that someday we can put aside the division and really sit down and evaluate what we did well during our response to Covid and what we didn't do well to ensure we have a path forward in the future. Keep up the great work ladies and enjoy your celebration in Cincinnati this weekend.
Great show! I might have to comment more than once to touch on all the points. One of the happier moments for me in 2021 was getting back to being in the world. We bought my daughter tickets to see Harry Styles for Christmas 2019 and in October of 2021 we finally got to see the show! We had to show proof of vaccination and wear masks to get in. It was the first time she and I had been in that kind of mass of humanity in two years. I went in having a hard time shredding some of those acquired fears of being close to humans you didn’t know and it turned into one of the most uplifting nights of my life especially to share it with my daughter. The crowd was mostly young women. You could not believe the amount of sequins, feather boas, and sheer joy all around. Even the pre show music was a constant chorus of people singing and dancing (the singalong to Bohemian Rhapsody was particularly amazing). Here’s a video of the medley he did of Treat People with Kindness and You Don’t Know You’re Beautiful. There’s nothing like a mass of unbridled young female joy to heal some wounds. I got weepy just watching the video again. Try to stick it out to the end. https://youtu.be/2UJ6A2m3YYM?si=VLV3l2vge-5bPeJp
Lots of thoughts:
1) when you started the episode with Jan 6th, I literally said aloud, “I forgot about January 6th.” And I was someone who watched all the Jan 6th committee hearings! If that isn’t a testament to Trump’s ability to make sure nothing sticks to him, then I don’t know what is.
2) there is a direct line from the politicization of science in 2020-2021 and the Dems insisting we unquestioningly trust the science to the defunding of scientific research we are seeing now. Anyone telling you to never question science is wrong. Science is built on skepticism and questions. I wish I saw that then.
3) I lived in Wyoming during covid. Everything stayed mostly open. But the 2021 school year, we had to go spit in a tube for a covid test once a week. Undergrads living on campus had to do it twice a week. Such a weird time. I only stopped masking last year.
Re: 2) unfortunately we also had a lot of people spreading misinformation (often deliberately, often grifting off of it) which I think is partly why people really committed to the “trust the science” pov. I’m not sure the best way to counter that. 😞 Anti vax stuff has been going on for decades -the individuals who embrace it, I can understand their fear and misgivings, but the people who profit off of it, don’t get me started. (Important personal context: my sister has autism and I’m like why do we keep spending money to keep proving vaccines don’t cause autism instead of using the money to make life more liveable for people with disabilities and their families… 🫠)
Truth. My husband has autism and the people trying to pathologize it and prove that vaccines cause it (when it’s been shown they don’t, over and over) can get all the way out of here.
Also, 2021 was the year of the Afghanistan withdrawal. I think that is still rippling out today, especially when thinking about the decision to bomb Iran and America’s role in the world.
I can feel all the judgmentalism I had for everyone who didn’t do things the way I did—if you took more precautions you were being ridiculous and extreme and if you took fewer precautions you were being reckless. I can see that I should have had more grace for people just trying to get through a difficult time. I think what made it hard was it didn’t feel like everyone in charge was making decisions in good faith.
Yes the number of friendships destroyed by this…
This. It's like the joke about how anyone who drives slower than me is a granny and anyone who drives faster is a maniac. So easy to consider ourselves normal and correct and everyone else making different choices unhinged.
Exactly! Don’t they know that the decisions **I** made were the exact right balance of risk and caution? 😂😂😜
Heartbreaking to be part of the world that produced January 6th. But also this world produced Andrea Gibson. ❤️ *sigh*. Love wins
2021 was the year of REMOTE WORK. 😆
I started working remotely in 2020 when COVID hit and continued to work remote throughout 2021. There were a lot of opinions about if remote work was going to be the thing some companies need to start offering or if we need to all get back to old days of going into office 5 days a week for no reason other than to take up space in a building. I do remember this being tied to the Biden Administration in some way and if administration was going to get us back on track again so we call can go back to work in an office full time.
Looking back at 2021 and Covid I was so happy I was living in Texas during that time. 😆 I know that may seem weird, but Texas did not lock down hardcore like a lot of states did for Covid. I thought at the time what not a good idea because I was seeing other states doing it. But looking back, it was wise Texas did not do it because we didn't need too. That being said, we had that horrible freeze that year that was brutal.
For me 2021 was the year that entertainment really started to die for me in movies and music. Everything was so political it was so hard for me to enjoy or get interested in anything. I'm still struggling with that now.
THE FREEZE. Yes, I’m in Texas, too, and that’s the standout event for me for sure. I felt like that, combined with COVID, really broke the “spell of solidity” for me. Seeing our city manager come out (after we had lost water as well) and basically say, “good luck” made me realize for the first time that no one was looking out for me. It was on me, and I had been completely unprepared (no firewood, bottled water, etc.)
Our kids were fully back in school that year (masked, I believe), and my husband and I were back at work at a university. But we were still being quite careful personally. We ended up having to go stay with friends who had power, and I remember being so thrilled with having an “excuse” to be with friends. That really made me start questioning my overall logic. It was fine for us to go to work and school and interact with literally hundreds of people but not to go to friends’ houses? What were we doing?
I live in North Dallas and our family were very lucky. We got through the freeze OK. A lot of people I knew in my city didn’t.
For me, the biggest worry for me about Covid was myself and my husband getting it because we are both high risk. We did eventually get it and we got through it OK.
It seemed like everybody around me didn’t seem too scared about Covid that much. Looking back on it, there were so many mixed messages about Covid during that time. My biggest regret that I was on Twitter a lot because that is where you got the latest breaking news. I wish I had never been on it during that time.
I think Sarah is right that many of us, not all but many, are in a new place that we haven't been before - that we can choose our people because we can move or have other supports available to us, and I'm not sure that it's good for us. Stability in the people we know can be of great value, but it's one that we don't speak to as much. I am continuing to ponder this.
I do think the Joni Ernst comment is a worldview but I’m struggling exactly how to counter that. I don’t think people “want children to die” but I think there are many who think what happens to other people isn’t their problem. Maybe it’s because they feel like taking care of “me and mine” is already overwhelming. Or maybe it’s because they subscribe to a specific worldview in which all is preordained and the elect are going to heaven and the rest are screwed anyway so what’s the point. Frankly, as a Jewish person, her doubling down on that via her completely unnecessary video in that cemetery and presenting that any complainer should instead accept Jesus was a real oof and a reminder that people like her do not see people like me as people, and is a back of mind fear that personally always makes me edgy.
But how do we yes, prevent suffering. I wish that was a paramount value and a discussion we could actually have.
As I contend with my own theology, I frequently confront this quote from Rabbi Abraham Joshua Heschel: “…morally speaking, there is no limit to the concern one must feel for the suffering of human beings, that indifference to evil is worse than evil itself, that in a free society, some are guilty, but all are responsible.” And where does my searching for someone else’s guilt blind me to my own responsibility for others in this world? We get obsessed with looking for who is guilty, but maybe that’s not asking the right question.