Political Violence and Peaceful Protests

Plus Ben Wikler on what we can learn from the WisDems

While Sarah and I recorded this episode (on Monday, June 16 at 1:30 p.m.), I realized, bizarrely, that I felt a little bit of relief. It was, by all measures, an extremely difficult weekend in America and the world. I didn’t know until we recorded this episode that something in me expected it to be much worse.

I’m reaching a level of emotional disorientation that is familiar. For all the ways that Trump 2 differs from Trump 1, this feeling—this sensation that everything is upside-down and inside-out and moving too fast and actually not as bad as I thought but also so much worse than I predicted—is the same.

We talk in this episode about caring but not losing our lives to politics, as it seems the political assassin in Minnesota did. We talk about loving our neighbors in Israel and Iran while recognizing that we can’t do anything about this newest war.

We also talk about the places where we do have influence and opportunities for action. Ben Wikler, who has been nationally recognized for his unique leadership in the Wisconsin Democratic Party, joins us to talk about where Democrats can build the party in all directions by keeping the main things the main things.

Outside of politics, we’re talking camps, tv, jobs, and summer parenting.

Topics Discussed

• Political Assassination in Minnesota

• Israel vs. Iran

• “No Kings” Protest and a Military Parade

• Ben Wikler on rebuilding the Democratic Party

• Outside of Politics: Kid Rotting or Wild Summer

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Episode Resources

Pantsuit Politics Resources

• Pantsuit Politics 10th Birthday Party

• Virtual Tickets

• Pantsuit Politics in Cincinnati Activity Registration

Minnesota Shooting

• What We Know About the Suspect in the Minnesota Lawmakers Shootings (The New York Times)

• Melissa Hortman, Minnesota Lawmaker Killed in Shooting, Is Remembered by Colleagues (The New York Times)

• Mountainhead (HBO)

Israel strikes Iran

• What to Know About Israel’s Strikes and Iran’s Retaliation (The New York Times)

• Trump vetoed Israeli plan to kill Iran's supreme leader, US official tells AP (The Associated Press)

“No Kings” Protests and Military Parade

• "No Kings" anti-Trump protests attract millions, organizers say (Axios)

• 2,000 protests and a parade.(Tangle News)

Ben Wikler

• Wisconsin Democrats

• Ben Wikler (Instagram)

Wild Summer

• ‘Bed Rotting’ and ‘Hurkle Durkle’: Can You Stay In Bed Too Long? - The New York Times

• Why Not Let Your Kids Have a ‘Wild’ Summer? (The Cut)

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:11] This is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:00:12] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics. On today's show, we're going to try desperately to catch up on the insane headlines from the past few days, from political assassinations to military parades. And then we're going to share a conversation we had last week with Ben Wikler, who has been the chair of the Democratic party in Wisconsin since 2019 and has garnered a lot of attention by leading the party in a very unique way. Outside of Politics, we're going to talk about summer camps and kid rotting. My new favorite internet phrase.

Beth [00:00:41] Before we do, we are getting very close, very excited about our 10th birthday celebration. If you cannot join us in Cincinnati for the weekend, no worries, you can join virtually via live stream. We made some really great plans this week for that live stream to be lots of fun. It's going to be such a special show. We don't want you to miss it. So make sure to get your ticket. The information to do that will be in the show notes. And if you are coming to Cincinnati next month, please be sure to check your email because we are going to be offering a lot of cool opportunities to hang out with fellow listeners. Everything from giraffe feeding to private tours and museums. But you must check your email. It's going to come from Eventbrite. You should have gotten one last Friday. So do not miss it. There's also a link in the show notes if you did miss it to learn more about those activities and having dinner with people before the show. We just need you to fill out an interest form by Friday, June 27th. And we want to say thank you so much to Christy Matthews who has been planning all of these activities.

Sarah [00:01:37] All right, we're going to start in Minnesota. Early Saturday morning, two Minnesota state lawmakers were shot along with their spouses. Representative Melissa Hortman and her husband were killed while Senator John Hoffman and his wife were critically injured. Police have released some details, but Governor Tim Walz called it a politically motivated assassination attempt. A 57 year old suspect who posed as a police officer is now in custody after a harrowing two-day manhunt.

Beth [00:02:25] My mom and I were discussing sourdough bread when this breaking news came through, and it took my brain several minutes to process that a lawmaker had been killed. And I started thinking about how escalated even my language can be about political violence and the threats of political violence. And then something like this shakes me and makes me realize that while we have seen political violence, we could be entering a new chapter where it's a lot more real. And it made me just so concerned about all the reporting I'm reading about the FBI and its resources, because things like this are predictable. A lot of outlets said that this was not surprising. I found it surprising, but I understand that the intelligence is out there, people's writings on social media are out there and I want every one of those leads to be followed. I want this to be prioritized. Our secretary of state in Kentucky posted about how when you serve now, you think about who's going to be in every room you walk into. And now he's going to be thinking about his house in that same way. Is this a safe place for me to be?

Sarah [00:03:40] Yeah, it's so predictable that I thought one of the most impactful pieces of reporting about the TikTok of events that went on in Minnesota was when they went to John Hoffman's house, one of police officers immediately was like, well, we need to go check on Senator Hortman. And that they engaged with the suspect as he was leaving her house. Like that was just his instinct and it was correct. And I agree with you, I saw the reporting that described it as like not shocking, but I was shocked and appalled, even with that crazy lead in the New York Times that was like, well, Steve Scalise commented because he was shot, and then Nancy Pelosi commented because her husband was attacked, and then Josh Shapiro commented because his house was set on fire. And I'm like, oh God, when you line them all up like that-- and Gabby Giffords commented because she was shot-- I understand that it has become more common. But that doesn't make it any less shocking to me. And I am persuaded by the reality that I, as a school shooting survivor, have acknowledged that violence at school has been prevented by the hardening of our security environments. So I don't want to make it in either or. Public servants need more with security. That's the reality. I hate it.

[00:05:19] That's reality because another thing that I feel passionately about is that we're too far removed from our representatives. And so surrounding them with security is not going to help that situation. And I also just don't want to lose sight of this polarization and the increased rhetoric. There's this drive to say like whose side was he on? Was he a far left activist or a far right activist? And I just want to be like, but that misses the point. Whatever side you're on, everybody's tick-tocking up their own tally on either side. You got Steve Scalise, you got Donald Trump on one side, you got Nancy Pelosi, you've got Gabby Giffords on the other right. So we could do this tit for tat that I don't think is productive at all, because the reality is when the rhetoric accelerates, it's not about it's politically persuasives to people, it's that there are people who are susceptible for any number of reasons to that heightened political rhetoric. And the rest of us might be able to just blow it off when someone says they're the enemy of America, or they're a fascist coming for America. But other people can't and that makes it more dangerous for everyone. And so I want to hold both of those, like the pragmatic reality of their security and the more ephemeral reality of our rhetoric, side by side.

Beth [00:06:51] When you start tracing back to Gabby Giffords, to Steve Scalise, we have been on notice for a long time that extreme words and extreme beliefs and extreme behavior don't have clear lines around them anymore. The thing that I read about this suspect that struck me as most true was a comment from his landlord that he seemed to have given up on life. And that feels like it's more at the core of anything to me than any political belief. If you've given up life in a number of respects. Then sure, something like a person's stance on abortion can occupy just an outsized portion of your mind. And I don't know how to reach people who have given up on life. And I don't know what we do about the fact that so many of those people do occupy an outsized portion of their minds with national politics in particular. But that is the call to action for me here. That even though my work is devoted to news and politics, I do not let it become an outsized portion of how I see the world and my work and worth within it. I think that's what has happened to this person.

Sarah [00:08:10] I think that's so difficult because we tell ourselves if it's important enough, then it should take up more time and energy. Like if it is the future of our country or if it women's reproductive rights or if it' s the safety of our children inside their school environment, well, what could be more important? And how do you show that something's important? You let it occupy you. You let it occupy your every thought, your every action, because your brain's telling you you're doing something by reading about it and getting angry about it. There is a part of your brain that says good, you're paying attention, you're doing something about this. You're taking action through this attention. I've been having some real moments of empathy for the way in which my parents used to really frustrate me when I was younger by their blase response to things. And I would get so mad and I would think like don't you care? You're so selfish.

[00:09:20] There's a real narrative around boomers I think when it comes to their feeling of responsibility for the problems of the world, I guess, is how I would say it. And I've just become like the older I get, I'm like, there's just a part of me that I have a more and more of a response like I can feel the old response, which is if this was important you'd be all in. Lock in chat, that's how you show it's important. And then there's this growing louder voice that says, you can't do anything about that. You just can't anything. I don't have any control literally at all over our next topic, the conflict between Israel and Iran. I just don't. What am I going to do about it? And I can't tell if that's like a wise response as I get older to just really release myself from the things I cannot control or if it's apathy as my 16 year old tells me it is. I don't know. After being in a political environment for so long that tells you action is how you care, when it's okay to say, and when it may be a type of action, to say pump the brakes, don't let this consume you.

Beth [00:10:39] Chad and I watched Mountain Head this weekend. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, it's a movie on HBO about four tech giants getting together and observing the impact their companies are having on the world. And there's this moment in it when one of them says to the other-- they're out like in the snow exploring beautiful Utah. One says to other, "Do you believe in other people? Like eight billion people who are all as real as you are?" I keep thinking about that question because I think that's what I'm puzzling through as I get older as well. I do believe in 8 billion people as real as I am. And that means that, yes, I read about this representative who gave her life to trying to do better for Minnesota families and whose children are left with this horror show and who is lost forever. We named a whole lot of people who have been subjected to political violence who are still working in politics, which I think has a desensitizing effect in some ways. Even though it should have a sensitizing effect, right? It should make us even more aware and understand more. And it goes the other direction because our brains do these weird things.

[00:11:57] And so when I think about Israel and Iran, my brain does that weird thing because I believe in the reality of 8 billion people who matter as much as I do, have thoughts and feelings just like I have. It is almost paralyzing to me to think about the civilian casualties and the military ones too happening in this war that seemed to spring up out of nowhere and that also is as predictable as the sun coming up in the morning. And then at the same time, because I believe in 8 billion people as real as I am, I feel such a lack of control and so hyper aware of how, even if I had the exact solution or the exact answer to any of these problems, which I do not, how impossible it would be to implement that idea. And that calls me even further into my immediate surroundings where I can have some influence. So I'm puzzling through the same thing that you are. I don't want to be an apathetic person. I don't want to be unaffected by these events, but I also don't want to end up like this shooter where I am so overtaken by my belief that I have answers for the world that I become a very destructive force.

Sarah [00:13:14] I think that's hard enough domestically, but when you do add in the international component of-- not to be flip, Beth, but I keep waiting for the peace through strength, and I'm not seeing it. I'm seeing more and more conflict. In case you rightfully tuned out the news over the weekend, the military conflict between Israel and Iran continues to intensify with both sides exchanging an enormous amount of strikes. Israel, I think under any rubric, has been more successful. Iran is facing a real existential threat. They have hit numerous military sites. They are advising people in Tehran to evacuate. They have stuck the command center of Iran's special military unit. They are still trying to take out the nuclear uranium enrichment sites in Iran. There was reporting that President Trump rejected the Israeli plan to assassinate the Iranian Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khomeini. And Iran has struck back. There have been deaths. They have penetrated Israel's famous Iron Dome and hit multiple sites inside Tel Aviv. So it's just the opinion piece around The Times that really got to me was just they don't have any incentive to stop. No really obvious way to declare victory. And so we were probably looking at weeks of this conflict, not days, where these two countries continue to go at it.

Beth [00:15:06] And weeks feels optimistic to me because I think what we've learned over the past couple of years is that violence just begets violence. I grew up in the era of Desert Storm where we could conduct a military action and it could end. There could be an objective and it can be accomplished. And it could be contained or at least the story of it could contained. I don't think it was ever as contained as it felt here or it felt to me however old I was then. But the past couple of years show that whatever a country's resource is, if they have the will to fight, they will fight and they will inflict enormous damage and it will continue. And we are not living in a time of peacemakers right now. I don't know if we have given up on diplomacy fully. We certainly seem to have given up on diplomacy as an engagement about ideals and what kind of world we want to live in. And the diplomacy that seems to be happening right now all feels like business negotiations. And maybe that will lead to even greater peace in the long run, but in the short run, there is incredible destruction, just incredible destruction. And I am really concerned that this has already left the realm of what can be contained, and cordoned off into something that lasts just weeks.

Sarah [00:16:37] So it was with both the backdrop of horrific political violence domestically and horrific violence internationally that we had both the military parade in Washington DC and the No Kings protests across the country. The military parade, Beth, I have to say, I was, I guess, pleasantly surprised, is the only word for it. On the most basic schadenfreude level, it literally rained on his parade, like, literally, which I thought took it down a little bit. And even though it was on his birthday, it coincided with his birthday, he only spoke for eight minutes, and it really did seem to be much more focused on the army's 250th anniversary than it did on him. As Lee said, it wasn't really giving as much supreme leader as I was afraid it would.

Beth [00:17:42] Yeah, this is pretty low in the list of things I care about. I don't like it. I don't think it's a judicious use of resources. I think it only highlights how terrible we are at actually respecting our troops. The fact that the people who marched in this parade had to sleep in office buildings, that's the picture, right? We're celebrating your valor, but you can sleep on the floor in a room that's not built for you to sleep in. And that's just how we treat our troops. If this opens up a discussion about better deployment of resources, to have a modern military where people are respected and supported from the moment they enlist through the moment they die, I'm for that. I am for having a real discussion about what it means to be a member of the armed services and for the country to thank you for your service appropriately in a variety of ways. And that's about all I have to say about this. I think it was a poor choice to have this on his birthday. There is also a part of me that thinks, well, I hope he got this out of his system. It was clearly important to him. Now we've done it. Can we move on to something more important?

Sarah [00:18:56] Yeah, I definitely don't want to spend $500,000 per minute on something like this after cutting scientific research and cancer research and the long, long laundry list of sledgehammering DOGE and its accompanying high jinks swung around our federal government. And also the United States military does have a recruitment problem. It has a lot of problems. And in the face of ever increasing conflicts abroad, I know that the Trump administration has no interest in using the strength of the American military to advance soft power, diplomatic peace. But one day I anticipate another leader of the free world having that set of priorities. And I would like the United States military to be in a space where it can help meet that objective. So I don't carry this default all military things are bad that I hear a lot among my progressive friends and neighbors.

[00:20:13] I don't default to like everything associated with the United States military is bad. I think having the new recruits come and get sworn in was kind of a nice moment. I'm happy for people not to be shat on because they decided to serve their country. If we're going to valorize public service, then I think we should valorize all public service. So that part didn't bother me. And I was really worried. I had visions of Tiananmen Square where somebody getting through the line and stepping in front of a tank. So glad that didn't happen. Glad it was sort of a nothing burger and glad that the No Kings protest really also shined really brightly and without almost any incidences. There was a bystander that sadly was killed when security officials shot at an armed man in the crowd in Salt Lake City. There was a man who drove into a protest in Virginia. There were no injuries. And Texas shut down a demonstration at the state Capitol following some credible threats. But other than that, when you're talking about 2000 plus towns and locations that had protests, you're taking about millions of people who filled the street, I think we call that a success.

Beth [00:21:35] At the same time that we have military deployed in Los Angeles still, I worried about what would happen in that situation over the weekend with all of these other inflammatory stories surrounding it. And it seems like local officials there are really trying to keep that situation-- I don't even know what word to use because it's wild that there are active duty military personnel in an American city against the wishes of the state and local officials there. So contain doesn't really apply, but to prevent escalation, I guess, it looks like they're really working hard to prevent escalation. And I commend everybody who is involved in preventing escalation. It's what I think about every single day right now for myself. How to be a peacemaker in the world, how to a person who deescalates, who brings some calm, who says, let's not do things that are irreversible, even in moments that feel like they are calling us to extreme actions. How do we maintain a sense of where we want to go in the future? And so I'm really, really grateful that so many people seem to have that mindset over the weekend.

Sarah [00:22:48] Yeah, and look, I know that there were probably not a lot of independent or moderate voters persuaded by the No Kings protest. I get that it was largely democratic leading people. But I think what's really positive about that, I know so many of you participated in the protest. I was incredibly heartened by how many people were on the streets in Paducah because I think what's positive about it, even if let's say we're not persuading anybody politically, I really like that it was so evenly spread all over the country. It's not like we had 5 million people in LA, Philly, New York, Miami. You know what I mean? There were 5 million in tiny towns and like South Dakota. I think that is what's so encouraging and can really lend itself to this idea, first of all, to people who are in deeply red areas, that you are not alone. Which is really important. If we want to prevent the radicalization, a great first step of that is telling people you're not alone. You're not facing some behemoth alone in your living room. There are other people who feel just like you do and care about exactly what you do, no matter where you live. So I think that is so positive. The sense that you're not alone. And also I think even though I know it's sort of an extreme political message, like it's very much like he's a fascist, he's the end of the world, it's not going to appeal to like moderate Americans. I get it. But I still think it's just so positive to say, see, we don't break down as easy as you think we do. It is not just 25 states against 25 states or whatever it is. It's complicated. People feel all kinds of ways no matter where you live. And I always think that that's like a beautiful and important reminder in our polarized political environment where the first thing we ask when somebody commits an act of political violence is whose side are they on? You know what I mean?

Beth [00:25:06] I read this mostly as just what you said, a source of inspiration and relief and community and solidarity for people who need that right now. And I think that if this filled you up, that's wonderful. I also hope that it gets read by members of Congress and judges who are in difficult positions right now as an expression that political will exist in a lot of different forms in this country. More than protest signs, I am encouraged by reading my morning newsletters and every day seeing this list. District court finds that administration cannot do X. Appellate court finds administration cannot do Y. Or that they can, but within these parameters because the law still matters. And I think it matters for the people who are having to make those types of decisions to see that a lot of Americans really appreciate that.

Sarah [00:26:16] Well, what I really hope is that both the organizers of these events, especially nationally, and everyone who participated takes this and says, okay, now it's time for an ask. Now it's time for the next step in what we're marching for, not just against, especially when it comes to immigration. If we want to take the wind out of the sails of this issue that has fueled Donald Trump's rise for so long, then we need to demand legislative action when it comes to immigration reform, all of us everywhere, no matter where you live. Because clearly he's overshot. We're getting this reversal that he doesn't want ICE raids and farming or hospitality. So there's weakness there. There's an opportunity as people see this play out in their communities to say, we know this isn't what you wanted. We want safe borders and enforcement. We have to reform immigration. We have a real path for people. There is an opportunity here that I hope is exploited. And I think that's why it's great that we had Ben Wikler on because I think his leadership inside the Wisconsin Democratic Party that you're going to hear about next. Now we recorded this conversation before the protest, but I think the way he speaks about showing up in our communities and starting to make those asks and starting organize around what people want to see in their lives is really like the perfect chaser for the No Kings Day protest. So up next, Ben Wikler. Ben Wikler, welcome to Pantsuit Politics. We're so happy to have you.

Ben Wikler [00:28:15] Great to be with you today. Thanks for having me on.

Sarah [00:28:18] So, not to be flippant, but what stage of grief are you currently in, Ben? We're in, I think, acceptance, but also a little bit of bargaining. How about you?

Ben Wikler [00:28:32] I think I've been furious still. I don't think it's pretty good.

Sarah [00:28:36] Angry. That's a good one.

Ben Wikler [00:28:39] Yeah, anger. I'm not ready to negotiate yet. I want to fight back. I don't want to go back to how things were because it's not like everything was fine before this horror was visited on us, but I want break through and get to the other side and actually build the kind of country that everyone deserves to be able to live in because it is not okay.

Sarah [00:29:02] We've been spending a lot of time thinking about what we missed, what we got wrong, what we accepted when we shouldn't have. How much time have you spent thinking about things like that?

Ben Wikler [00:29:14] A lot. Well, after the 2024 election, I ran for DNC chair and that experience involved a ton of conversations with like every DNC member in the country and a lot of folks outside the party. And that came on the back of a lot of rapid analysis and thinking through about what had happened in Wisconsin. If we could go back and maybe speak emphatically to reform ourselves, there's a lot of things we tell ourselves. But in a lot of ways, the place we're in has very deep roots. It's not something that was just decisions made about messaging in the final months of 2024. You have to go back a lot further. And I think that in a very broad sense, we're in an era where there's lot of people who feel like the country's not working for them, who wind up moving back and forth. We've had more changes of control of the presidency and of Congress over the last 20 years than almost any other time in American history. So there's this question of why is there not a stable kind of shared sense of what our national project is? And I think you have to go pretty deep to get a vision for how you actually bring folks together around creating a country that honors and respects everybody.

Beth [00:30:25] I've been thinking about this, Ben, because I find it really unsatisfying to say Democrats have a messaging problem. That doesn't feel like it to me. And I don't think that people like Donald Trump's policies. I know that that's what we say, but I don t think that's correct. So a hypothesis I've working through is whether it's not that Democrats have a branding problem, it's that politics has a branding problem and Donald Trump has a forever past on seeming like he's part of politics because so many people in this country knew him as something else for so long. What do you think about that theory? And what am I getting wrong about it?

Ben Wikler [00:31:07] Beth, I totally agree with you. I totally agree with that theory. And the thing that jumps out to me is when you talk to folks who might or might not vote, and when you talked to folks who might vote either way, to an overwhelming degree, they share a profound cynicism and disgust and often rage at politics in general. They think both parties are full of it. They think politicians are just out for themselves. They think it's all a scam. They think what politicians say all day is nothing to do with what they actually do when they have the power to make decisions. And Trump has capitalized on that disgust with politics. And his whole thing has been that he's an outsider, that he is going to shake things up. Even folks who hate his policies are sticking with him right now. Right now, if you ask them, often people will say, look, at least he's trying something. At least he is not just accepting things the way they are. And I was thinking about this week, actually, that when Barack Obama ran for president, part of the strength of his campaign was always starting with that place of like, look, politics can be-- he would tell the story about knocking on people's doors and people saying, "You seem like a nice guy, church going guy, what are you doing getting involved in a dirty, terrible thing like politics?"

[00:32:16] And it started with recognizing that disgust that people feel. And I think often for those of us, probably Sarah, Beth, the three of us and I'm guessing a lot of people who are tuning in right now, we start with this sense that politics can be about making the world a better place. That it can be actually about delivering for people, and that there are some people trying to use politics for ill, but there's other people trying to use it for good. Those are not shared assumptions among a ton of people. A lot of people start from a place of like anyone involved in politics is suspect. Why would you ever do that? And this whole thing is a total mess. And I think unless we recognize that that's where a lot of will start, then saying all the good things that you're going to do actually won't land, because it's just going to seem like more pie in the sky that you are trying to contend. And often Democrats, as you say, fall into this trap of thinking if we only described our policies a little bit differently, then people would be like, oh yeah, that is what I'm talking about. And you got to cut through a lot more disgust than that before you're able to actually connect to people and build trust.

Beth [00:33:20] Well, I wanted you to tell me I was wrong, Ben, because this feels like an incredibly terrible self-reinforcing problem because pretty much every way in which you say, "This is not normal about Donald Trump," elevates that sense that he's not politics and we like not politics right now. And it puts Democrats constantly in the position of saying, no, politics can be good. No, this institution can be good. No, we can be good. No, this person can be good. And I wonder, as you're thinking about the way forward, the way out of this, where do you start? Do you just pick a gifted politician and try to just convince people that that person's good and then hope that we get the sort of drag that Donald Trump gets out of it? Do you try to build a different sense about what politics or parties are capable of? What do you do because everything feels like a trap right now?

Ben Wikler [00:34:11] I hear you. I want to put on the table at the same time that since Trump's election, Democrats have been doing phenomenally well in elections. I'm joining you from Wisconsin. This spring we had the most expensive judicial race in American history by a mile with at least $25 billion from Elon Musk sloshing around. And the candidate the Democrats supported in a non-partisan race, Susan Crawford, won not only in a landslide by 10 percentage points over Elon Musk's preferred candidate, she got more votes in that election than any Republican candidate for governor in a November election has ever gotten in the state of Wisconsin. A level of engagement and turnout that blew every model, every expectation out of the water. There is a pent up fury and rage and at least enough hope to believe it's worth participating that is all over the place across the country. So I am not at all in an all hope is lost place right now. I'm in the battle is joined place. And I think a lot of people feel that way. I think on No Kings Day, there's going to be a historic, massive protest. And so we're in this moment of crisis with Trump calling in the Marines and federalizing the National Guard in LA and then rolling tanks through Washington, DC.

[00:35:22] But at the same time, we've seen millions of people from all walks of life and probably an array of different political persuasions marching in streets across the country, demanding the basics that were a core part of the American Revolution, the idea that we should have self-government and this country not be ruled by tyrants and kings. That to me is a source of a lot of hope that translates into electoral victories and special elections and off-year elections, and I think potentially in the midterms. So the most terrifying prospect outside of electoral politics right now is a collapse into a dictatorship. It's Trump shredding the constitution, defying, the rule of law and just grabbing and hold it on to power and going even further with violating basic freedoms. And the counterpoint to that is that elections are run in the states in the United States of America. This is a moment when federalism really matters and there's a path to winning the control of state governments for people who believe in democracy in so many more places because of the backlash that trump has already incurred.

[00:36:23] Now, then it goes to the next question which is how do we think about a presidential race? And we have some time to figure that out, but I will say this, when you deliver real change in people's lives that they can touch and see and feel, and you can run on that, it becomes real and cuts through the cynicism in a way that no rhetoric ever can. And this is where, again, it's not a messaging thing. You actually have to feel that change in your life for it to matter. But we experienced that with the Affordable Care Act. When it was just abstract in the 2010 elections, it was a Republican campaign effort. But once people had protections for preexisting conditions, once young people were on their parents' health insurance till age 26, that became a giant blow up in the GOP's face when they tried to repeal it in 2018. When they're coming for healthcare right now, fighting for things that people know are real in their lives, I think abortion bans are just like this too. They're experienced in people's daily life outside of politics. Every family that's trying to have a kid has to figure out what do you do if something goes wrong if you're in a state that has an abortion ban as Wisconsin had for 451 days.

[00:37:26] And you can talk about that and fight on the right side of that in a way that can cut through and resonate even with people who feel like they'd rather never get anywhere close to politics. So I hope we have a irresistibly wonderful, amazing presidential nominee in 2028. But the work between now and then is in every place where Democrats have the power to do it now or can win that power in 2026 and then wield it, it's to make a kind change that people can instantly access because it's tangible and real. Governor Evers in my state was literally outfilling potholes with road crews. And everyone here knows that the roads are so much better than they used to be under the Scott Walker governorship. And Gretchen Weber has the same story in Michigan. Like that stuff is just outside of political scripts because you notice every time your car goes over a pothole. And I think we can overestimate how much people feel policy change right away. But if you can deliver changes that people really can instantly reference and they can feel that difference in their mind and they know who actually did it and they know that one side was against it, they know who's fighting for them. I think people do notice who's on their side when the chips are down. And I think that's democrat's job, is to fight in a way that people can see and then deliver in a way that they can feel.

Sarah [00:38:39] I'm just worried because I've heard this song before and I didn't like the ending. And I feel like what's happening again is we're going to get a backlash that'll fuel some of these special elections, probably the midterms, and people are going to take the same lessons they did last time in the same way Republicans take the same lesson. When he's on the ballot, they do well. And they forget when he's not on the ballots they don't do as well. And we think we've got this winning message just because people are backlashing against him. Everyone needs to remember from Republicans to Democrats that he is mortal and will not always be here. And I don't hear an articulated vision about what comes next in our politics from either party, honestly. Like they're just going to keep trying to run this MAGA script. And with Democrats, I don't want us to think if the streets fill or we blow up the midterms, that means we've got it on lockdown. Because, like you said, we're all just reactive. And so this pendulum swings back and forth and no one's building anything long-term. You know what, look, I agree with you about the ACA and also my health insurance is about to go up 40%. That's not okay. It's enormously expensive to ensure my family of five. And I don't hear people saying that. I didn't want to just protect the ACA, I want it to be more affordable.

Ben Wikler [00:40:10] Yes. Absolutely!

Sarah [00:40:12] I don't just want that. And the public school system is floundering. I'm not happy as a parent in the public-school system and not because I give a shit about what books are in the library. I have some real concerns about that. I have massive concerns about what's going to happen to my kids and entry-level jobs when they get out of college because of AI. And it's like because he defines so much in this like crisis, we're always in this crisis mode and it's either protecting the status quo which people aren't happy with. Because he's such a chainsaw, I just feel like we can't catch our breath and articulate something. And, yeah, it works in the short term and it's a crisis. And like in your special election, when you can be like, do you want to protect yourself against Elon Musk? People go, yeah, right now. But what about long-term?

[00:41:00] What about this long-term articulated vision? I'm an information person. Look, cover me up. But when I start to think about, okay, politics, then under the flow chart of politics, people who pay attention and people who don't. And then under that, the parties. And then, under that it's not just the parties, it's like the elected leaders, the influencers, the party faithful, the maybe party loyalists, but not party active. And then I just start to think about all these constituencies all under the umbrella of either the Democratic party or politics generally in America and my brain starts to melt a little bit, and I can't think how are we going to articulate a long-term vision of all these different constituencies, especially since we don't even have a centralized media environment at all? Nobody's watching MSNBC anymore. What do we do? Help, I'm drowning.

Ben Wikler [00:41:55] A lot. There's a lot there. And I think all of us feel that way, right? This is whether or not you believe in politics, I think there's a generalized sense of crisis and it is both what's happening in our lives economically with healthcare prices, which are singularly infuriating. And I think prescriptions and drug prices are the thing that blows my mind. Filling your prescription should never be a cause of stress in a country that is essentially besides what the drug prices should be. But insurance premiums and co-pays when you go to the doctor and so much with healthcare and so much with life in general and housing and childcare and schools, there's so much to be done. I also think doing anything can generate tremendous positive feelings of momentum and action. And I think that at the level of each of us as American citizens and people who just live in this country, finding a way that we can join with other people to do something that means something and does something can turn that feeling of paralysis into a feeling of like, okay, we're doing something we can build on this. And I think that's part of the power of a great protest or great rallies is you realize you're not alone, you realize there are people in this together, there are the people of goodwill.

[00:43:12] I think that winning something is very different from losing everything. In Wisconsin, the mood changed after we won the Supreme Court race. There's a sense of like, all right, let's think about what the next fight is. And most of the country has not had that experience since 2024; it's still in this feeling of like nothing's working. But I'm telling you, here in Wisconsin, the closest state in the country, we can feel like there is some stuff that can work and is going to work. And the Supreme Court is going to make rulings on the 1849 abortion ban that we had. And there's just a handful of legislative districts. If we win those, then we can-- like the governor right now is in this giant negotiation over school funding and university and childcare. And if we win the majorities in the legislature in 2026, we're going to have breakthroughs on those things. And that's going to really affect every family. Families like yours and mine. Also I have three kids. Very much relate to how much that is. It is a lot. So part of it is like you're finding the good that you can build on just to get through the day. I think the second thing though is I really think that the public's attention follows fights. It follows conflict. That when there's two sides to something and a battle, a David versus Goliath story, or whatever the end or the empire versus the--

Sarah [00:44:34] Star Wars metaphor?

Ben Wikler [00:44:36] Yeah, whatever it is. That's where attention goes. And in a world where it's not like three channels that everybody watches, essentially what you need is big battles that people become invested in and watch that show up in a million podcasts and a million streaming things on every social media platform and all the TV stations. That's happening right now in LA. This is a battle that Trump chose. He provoked the protests by causing immigration raids at a Home Depot, and now he's sending in the troops, and he thinks that this is helpful for him. My guess is that it's actually terrible for Trump and Republicans politically, because most people do not want to see that kind of chaos in their streets. And this is really fueled by Trump. We've seen this movie before, too. But I think for Democrats, and for anyone who believes in democracy, you have to find where there's a battle line where most of the country will be with us, where we're standing for things that are fundamental beliefs that we share. I think that healthcare is a really good example of this. Ripping away healthcare from people. I think they're giving away multi-trillion dollar tax cuts to the super rich is another thing that the vast majority of Americans oppose. Even many Republican voters oppose. It's something that they're doing because this is always their con.

[00:45:47] But the bigger you can make those fights, the more people can actually build memories that have emotion and actually have energy in them about who's on whose side and what it can look like. So part of how we cut through is by trying to drive every iota of energy and focus and theater we can into battles that illustrate what our fundamental values are and what the Trump and Republicans values are. The other piece about articulating the vision for the future, I think it's worth a lot of people doing a lot of thinking. I think ultimately the presidential nominee is the person who's going to have the giant megaphone to be able to cut through and lay it out. And so every election in a sense is a test case for that person. And hopefully whoever that person is, is drawing from learning from every election. So anyone running in state-level elections in 2026 or for Senate and the House, if you go back, often the big issues in presidential elections were really big issues in the midterms beforehand. In 2006 corruption was this giant issue, the culture of corruption. And Democrats ran against that. And then Barack Obama ran as a reformer. And he'd made a whole bunch of changes to try to clean up politics. And that was a big part when people think about it because he was scandal-free after this long series of terrible scandals that racked the GOP.

[00:47:05] So I do think that there's going to be a whole lot of people trying different stuff out. But I agree with you. Ultimately, it can't just be about a backlash against the GOPs. To me, it has to be, part one, a real vision for what we're going to do. But, part two, I really do think people need to experience that that vision is fulfilled to be able to build trust and go forward. I think that with the Biden administration they did a ton of great stuff, but all that stuff is still in process right now. People are not experiencing it in their lives. And so there's not this sort of sense of like, oh, we voted for Biden and now factories are opening up and this renaissance of all these things. Some of those things are happening in economic statistics, but it's not like everywhere you go people are like Biden now makes work for me. It's a lot of stuff.

Sarah [00:47:47] Well, and you know what I think, to the health insurance issue I think the perception is that Democrats look out for groups of people and not all Americans. And so I think even though I agree with it, of course, I don't want Medicare cut or Medicaid cut taken away from people. But I think people hear that and they say, see, they're not worried about how much me as a middle class American is paying for health insurance. They're just worried about the people who get help from the government not continuing to get those benefits. That's what I'm concerned about. I feel like the fights that I agree with, I don't have any beef with the policy or the policy fight we're having about that or about even like the tax cuts, but I still don't feel like they're like, you're mad you're giving tax cuts to the billionaires, but you're also not talking about advocating for tax cuts for me. You know what I am saying? There's never this all-encompassing for all American sort of policy approach from Democrats. At least that's not the perception.

Ben Wikler [00:48:53] I think it's not the perception. I had an Uber driver right before the election in 2024 I was like, "So what do you think about the election?" He was like, "Well, Republicans look out for the rich, Democrats care about the poor, but what about the middle-class?" And I was like, "Can I text you a video of Kamala Harris' speech because she talks about the Middle-class all the time." And it was like he had this feeling that that's just not where Democrats were. And in a funny way, to your point, like when it was protections for preexisting conditions, everyone either has one or will have one. Like that is a universal thing. And with Medicaid, there are a lot of people who think of it as something that's not going to affect them directly. Although, I have to say, in polling right now, people really don't want it to be cut. But it doesn't have the same elemental force for people that have been in on it, the feeling of direct threat to themselves and their own safety. Yeah, I think this is right. And I think that, honestly, it might that AI becomes a central thing like this. If the acceleration keeps going and the sense of like schools are getting transformed, education is not meeting the moment, that jobs are disappearing, this is something that's going to potentially affect everybody everywhere. And having a vision for how we actually address it in a way that makes life work for everybody is going to be potentially a really [inaudible].

Sarah [00:50:13] You were worried about arresting immigrants who were paying taxes and doing jobs and on your watch you let the robots take everybody's jobs. You did nothing. You sat there and watched it slow roll happen across the country. Because there is a concern for me that like, again, another same mistake we're making. We build up the outcome, like we fear monger about the outcome of Trump's policies so much that he looks like a success even if he's not. Like with the tariffs, I told my husband, I'm like, "Where are the empty shelves? I thought we were going to have empty shelves in April or then definitely May." And now it's June. I have not experienced any empty shelves. I don't like these policies. I think they're bad. But if we say this is a bad policy, the sky is going to fall, and then it doesn't, then he looks reasonable. Because we've defined unreasonable in such an extreme manner because he is an extreme dude. This is not a moral argument for me. I just don't want to fall for the same trap again. Do you see what I'm saying?

Ben Wikler [00:51:16] I see what you're saying. I also think that he's getting more and more unpopular. He's already very unpopular, and he is sending in the troops into American cities right now. It's just the kind of thing that seemed like an exaggeration, oh, he's not going to do that, and yet he's literally doing that right now. So I think the fact that he is president and he's going to stay president for the next several years, all the most likely circumstances is going to make it feel to us like nothing's working when in fact a ton of things are working and the energy is moving in the other direction.

Sarah [00:51:49] That's the pep talk I needed.

Ben Wikler [00:51:52] And another example is he's losing in court over and over and over. Like a ton of the terrible things that he's proposed have just gotten slapped down and shut down immediately by courts. And although he's flirting and playing with defying courts in various ways, he's not just being like screw you as Supreme Court. There's a ton of terrible things that he has tried to do, including messing with elections themselves. And you remember when he shut off every grant to every local government? And I talked to mayors in that moment, they were like, are we going to have to let go of the whole police force and fire department, like what the hell is happening here? And then that got shut down in court. And so a lot of the terrible things are not happening in part because he's losing, but it's not like he's getting more popular.

Sarah [00:52:33] That's a tough explainer to roll out to this history.

Ben Wikler [00:52:35] But the people are already pissed at him. We're not in a moment where people are like, bah, Trump is doing great. Like, what are all these Democrats yammering about? People are like this is chaos, this is a disaster. His public supports plummeted. If he were really popular right now, there would be this tide of Republicans doing well in these elections and pro-Trump demonstrations that show up or the anti-Trump demonstrations. We're not seeing any of that. What we're seeing is somebody who is pushing away most of the public and people getting organized, people thinking about running for office. I think that the energy is [inaudible].

Beth [00:53:10] We've just met and we're like rapid firing all of our deepest frustration on you, Ben. And I apologize for that. You just are kind of an embodiment of the party and you have this rock star status in the Democratic Party as someone who's built, not just a winning strategy in Wisconsin, but a strategy where people feel like there's an identity around what the Democratic party is that's positive. And I really want to know how that strategy can scale independent of whatever happens with Donald Trump. Because I do think he gets a pass forever in some ways from a branding perspective. And I do you think he unspools so much chaos that the way things land around him is always going to be too complex of a story for most people to follow. So if we never talked about him again from my lips to God's ears, what would be the focus of the Democratic Party that you think is really effective?

[00:54:08] I'll give you a launch into this by saying I'm a registered Republican right now because I live in a county in Kentucky where I would not get to vote in the vast majority of elections that affect my daily life if I were a registered Democrat. I tried it for a couple of cycles. I hated showing up to vote and not even having a box to check. No one even fielded for those local offices. And I feel like in a lot of our post-election conversations, we all kind of reasonably conclude the 2028 nominee is going to do a lot of this definition. But I also hear you saying, and I agree with you, that proving out the governance case between now and then is essential to that person having some runway. And so I'm wondering lessons from Wisconsin under Ben Wikler's leadership, like what should be happening nationwide in counties like mine?

Ben Wikler [00:55:09] In a sense, I think the thing that we have made progress on doing here, (there's still a kind of do) that I think can be built everywhere is to try to shift the idea of Democrats from them somewhere far away to us. Some of us here would agree with it. And that starts with we have a year-round organizing program that works in every county, in every zip code in our state, to organize year-around. So we recruit candidates for every local offices all over the state and work with people running for school board and town board from our state party, working with the county parties. We fund offices and work with county parties to make sure there's volunteers to show up in main streets all over Wisconsin in small towns, as well as in cities and suburbs. We do door-to-door canvassing in the off year. Like right now between elections we go out to talk to people who have not been in our model as people who voted Democrat, just to start conversations with like what matters the most to you right now? What are you thinking about? And just build relationships. And we always find some people that have had enough of what they've been experiencing. Then we go back to them. And it's people from their own communities.

[00:56:17] We call it neighbor to neighbor organizing, where we have neighborhood teams and neighborhoods all over the state, hundreds of these teams, that take responsibility for their own area and they go back over and over. And the most important conversations in my mind are actually when you're not asking for a vote, you're just asking to understand what somebody cares about. We work with folks to go on local radio and write columns in their local weekly newspapers that are mostly coupons in their area. We make sure there's people marching in parades and having booths at the county fair and at the Farm Tech Days Expo. We just show up over and over and over. And this is across geography, it's across race and ethnicity. It is a big tent party that tries to be present as part of the fabric of communities and the life of all the different parts of the state. And that's where we then find people who maybe didn't identify as democratic, but wind up running for a local nonpartisan office, and then eventually they're running for state assembly.

[00:57:16] We had In Sheboygan, the superintendent of the public school system decided to run for state assembly and everyone knew him because he is one of them. He's somebody who is known by their families about exactly as you say with Trump, something that's outside of politics. It's just somebody who's been looking out for their kids for years. And that kind of person winds up being a great candidate. And I think that that's a really from below strategy, but it also, in a way, it plants our boots on the ground. It means that we're actually grounded in what is happening and what people care about and what their concerns are. I used to work for a group that had the internal credo, strong vision, big ears, that you want to have a vision for where you want to go, but you need big ears with lots of ways to listen, to find out where people actually are and what they care about. Because if you're all vision, then you can just wind up falling totally flat or missing the mark on what people care about where they are. So that to me is the thing. And I think my view is Governor Beshear is a really effective governor. What I hope and would want is for there also to be tons of great grassroots activity happening where you are. We take signage seriously. This is something where it was for a while democratic operatives had these signs to vote and you shouldn't [crosstalk].

Sarah [00:58:33] I disagree with that. I know they don't actually vote but that was the advice I heard as a candidate and that was not my experience at all. Signs mattered.

Ben Wikler [00:58:40] Signs matter, and they matter in part because people think they're the only one unless they see signs out there, especially in red areas. You discover we've knocked on so many doors in places, especially early on in this process, where people would say, "Well, look, I'm the only Democrat around here." Like you're fishing in the wrong pond. And then it turns out, boom, signs are sprouting up and there's barred signs and there are [inaudible] signs. And suddenly there's an us that can actually do something. And then sometimes you're winning elections and that feels incredible. So I think giving this sense of there's actually a community of people who share a set of values and understand each other and then building out from that, it feels like it's coming from the ground up. That is the work of these next four years for all of us, people not running for president. It's to make clear by finding a way to-- as you are in a very big way, but putting yourself out publicly gives other people permission to do the same. And when we do that, we can discover that there's a lot more of us than people thought that there were and maybe, in fact, a majority of people who share at least a common set of basic beliefs about where this country needs to go.

Sarah [00:59:44] Well, I just was so struck by the way you said different ways to listen. And we've had these conversations and everybody's like, got to listen, got to listen, got to listen. I just love the way that sounds. What does that mean? And so the way you said, like, ways to listen, you have to show up in all these different places, to me, is so important. And I have the same experience, I know you do, which is I'm a very public-facing Democrat. So I know all the people who say, "I can't say it, it just me." I'm like, it not just you, I'm like a lightning rod. I meet everybody. Like, there's so many of us out there. And when you said that, I thought, well, yeah, of course. So the best way to impact what people think of Democrats is to personalize the Democrat in their life. That's how you do any real long-term impactful work. It's what happened with LGBTQ rights. It wasn't some floaty argument, it was the person in your life saying, I'm gay and I want these rights and I want to be able to be in the hospital room when my loved one is dying or whatever. You know what I mean? And that's what matters. It can't just be a podcast or a marketing campaign or even a candidate. It has to be the people in their lives who they're like they're a good person; I know they're good person and they vote this way.

Ben Wikler [01:01:03] Yes. A giant sharpie underline under everything you just said.

Beth [01:01:10] What does it mean to be a Democrat right now?

Ben Wikler [01:01:15] For me, being a Democrat means two fundamental things. One of them is the belief that this country should work for working people. You shouldn't have to be wealthy to be able to make it this country. I think that is an essential core value for this party. And the other is the believe that every person deserves dignity and respect and that every person should have the kind of basic freedoms and rights that should be everyone in the world's birthright. That is the core sacred value of the Democratic Party. And I think those two things, when you talk to Democrats about why they're Democrats, it's usually one or both of those things that is at heart what brings them to the table. And those two values wind up spreading out over a million things and they're written about in our founding documents as a country and any particular battle at any particular moment or bill that's coming up, there's probably some connection to those values. But those are the two things I go to the most. I think that now in this specific moment there's a third piece that has crept in that has brought people even who have a really different view about economics or about freedom of rights, which is the idea of democracy itself. And I don't want that to be an issue. I don't want that be up for debate. I don't want it to feel existential about whether we should continue to have elections where the public decides who's in charge.

[01:02:36] But now, in fact, I think we're in a Big Ten moment where people who have been very committed Republicans who really think that the problem is government as opposed to thinking that the problem is very often that all this people try to pull the ladder up. I think we need to be a big enough tent that if you believe in even the basic idea of democracy, then this is the party for you. But the thing that I keep coming back to is that the argument about democracy itself is not going to save democracy. Because if the people who are most motivated by democracy have this sense that democracy can work, that it is something that is worth either defending if it hits working somewhat already, or at least worth fighting for. But often the folks that we started this conversation talking about who are trying one party, then trying another party, or it just doesn't even seem worth it to show up, they've already lost faith that this democracy is anything more than a charade.

[01:03:36] And so to convince those voters, it's not enough to say democracy is at stake. Yeah, everyone says that all the time. Trump says that, Democrats always say that, blah, blah, doesn't feel like democracy's working around here. I think to make the argument to those folks it has to actually go more to their own lived experience in their lives. And that's honestly where the first piece about being able to afford to see a doctor when you're sick or put a roof over your head or know that your kids will be able to find a job ideally when they finish high school if they decide not to go to college or be able afford to go college, if that's what they want to do. Those things that are universal economic concerns for the vast majority of Americans live those questions every day. I think that those are honestly the things that allow us to expand the tent to people who otherwise would rather not ever think about politics because they know how it's actually going to hit them in their day-to-day life.

Beth [01:04:27] I ask you that most fundamental question because I'm curious as a party chair how you have dealt with the forest and the trees situation. I believe in intra-party fighting. I think it's important for people to really hash out policy. I think specifics matter. I understand that two parties is not enough for this great big country of ours unless you have a lot of factions within the parties battling out about their different visions. As a party chair though really trying to engage people who have not read abundance and are not part of the abundance discourse, how do you deal with the forest and the trees and getting across where the first thing people hear about Democrats is we want you to be able to have a great life without being rich in this country. How do you hammer home, fundamentally, this is what you need to know about us? The details are important. But the details are for people who have time for the details and that's their job. For you, this is what you need to know.

Ben Wikler [01:05:35] I think a core part of leadership is to try to keep the main thing the main thing. But this is my end of my third term as chair. So each term as chair I do a lot of laying out, what are the core things that we're trying to do over these next two years? And what is the big picture that these fit into? And then I just come back to those things over and over and over and, and I think you have to communicate a lot. In terms of where this lands for voters, the party is not running millions of dollars of TV ads every week like the big statewide candidates are in the final stretch of an election. But what the party does do is build this infrastructure of local folks communicating with local folks across the state. And that to me, creating the capacity to both listen and to speak all over Wisconsin, that is the kind of fundamental thing that I wish it was happening everywhere, that I think that the party can do, which is to create a vehicle for people who want to get involved, want to do something to be able to plug in and do something that adds up to a big picture that actually is a big enough potential impact on the world that is worth it to them to do that instead of everything else they can do at their time, which is so, so much. So for us it's building these neighborhood teams constantly and constantly renewing them and supporting the local parties around the state.

[01:06:51] And then we hold these briefing calls and we explain we're doing this bridge building right now because we know they were tens of thousands of people who voted for Susan Crawford in the spring Supreme Court election, who didn't vote for Harris last fall. We want to go out and find those people and learn what they care about, what motivates them, because then they can be with us in 2026. It is constantly connecting the thing that you're asking someone to do with the big picture that is a goal that actually unites and energizes everybody. And then when we go out and talk to people right now, I'm doing a lot of writing and posting and communicating about this healthcare cut to fund tax cut for the ultra-rich. I think that's a really, really big deal. It is the number one thing that it's not just Trump, it's every Republican in Congress, everyone in the House, everyone in the Senate, they're all going to vote on it one way or the other. And right now is our only chance to try to get them to vote against it. But if they do vote for it, I sure as hell want to make sure that their constituents know that they did. Because this is the [inaudible] whose side they take in this moment. And so making a big deal out of that is the thing that will allow us next year, not just to try and convince people or something, but to remind them of what these folks did when they had a choice about whose side they were going to be on.

Sarah [01:07:58] To me, the message is, remember the message that Kamala Harris is for they, them, Trump is for you? To me we flip it and say, Trump, they are not for you. They are for Trump. That's who they're for. That's who they are loyal to. Anyone who pays 30 seconds of attention to the news should be able to connect the dots that they are loyalty to Trump and Trump is loyal to Trump. That's it.

Ben Wikler [01:08:22] Yeah. And you make the big message and then you find proof point after proof point, after proof point. And they need to be proof points that are not academic, but that are actually like hit you in the gut. The way people remember things is when they have an emotional reaction. So if it's just statistics and charts and facts, and people are not feeling anything, it's just in one ear and out the other ear. It's not going to sink in.

Sarah [01:08:43] But you know what's so hard when you were saying that? I thought, this is the paradox and the struggle of our media environment. It's because of people's short attention span, you have to communicate the same thing over and over and again, which is hard because we also exist inside that immediate environment and have short attention spans, so if you're the person that has to say it over and over again, it feels exhausting and it feels like how could I possibly need to repeat this again? But again because our attention spans are also a part of this ecosystem, but that's the paradox of this moment in media we live in.

Ben Wikler [01:09:25] It is. I remember going to a training where they were like, you say your message, you say it again, you say again, you said again, you said it again. If you're like a candidate or a leading organization, your staff is like mouthing it with the words every word you say, because I've heard it so many times. And just when you start to think no one could possibly not have heard me say this so many time that they're sick of it, at that moment people who are not paying attention may start to pick up what you're saying. The number of times you have to repeat. And I'm a parent, so I experienced this with my kids. The number of times I have to tell Mark to unload the dishwasher before leaving for school, there's no limit to the number of times that that is a helpful thing for me to do. But it is so much like that in life and communication. I do think it is actually helpful to find slightly different ways to say things and different ways to illustrate the same point. I remember talking with someone who does ad testing last year before the election, and the person said that in studies when people watch an ad, the first 10 times, even 20 times, it still has an additional impact each time you see it. Once you get to 25, 30 times, it's like there's no additional impact. But you can say the exact same thing with a different ad.

[01:10:32] You can tell a different story about healthcare cuts or about abortion bans or whatever it might be, and that has an extra impact. So driving home the same underlying message about your core values, that we're the party that honors work and they're the ones who only want to reward the wealthy. Like the message that you're trying to hit, finding a bunch of different ways that drive that home and then running with those. Or if there's a particular storyteller, different ways of telling that person's story, all that does add up to something that people actually remember and run with. And for different people, different moments are going to stick in their heads. But that's the core message discipline, is bringing everything back to something that is underlying until it seems obvious that everybody knows it. And if you think about Trump, that guy will repeat the same phrase so many times. We all know build the wall. Like he said that in a bazillion rallies. He loves saying it and he [inaudible] response which is by the way a great way of teaching people stuff is if they say it themselves. But take a page, that is something that he's a master of. And I think a lot of democrats our brains skitter around to the next thing that we want to talk about or the latest outrage or didn't we do that already? No, bring it back to basics. That's just part of the art of politics in this moment.

Beth [01:11:47] I just want to ask you one last question then, because I think you're right about this repetition situation. I think a built-in advantage that Trump has in his repeating is that he doesn't care enough about anything for it to be super serious. There's always a joke available to him, and there's always a little bit of fun and lightness. It's mean. But the people who enjoy him get some enjoyment from all of that. And it's tough when the message you are hammering home is people are going to die if they lose their healthcare. Women are going to die if they don't have access to abortion. A lot of democratic messaging, especially because it has to be relatively defensive when you're in the minority party is so serious. And again it kind of plays into the worst caricatures people have about what Democrats are and represent. So I wonder, to end on like a positive because I appreciate all the ways that you're offering a path forward, what is something that you think Democrats could run on where they get to have fun with it? Where there can be a laugh at the end of the commercial? And Kamala Harris had a lot of joy in her message and I loved that, but something that's genuinely like a little bit of a wink and a little bit of humor attached to it, not so self-serious.

Ben Wikler [01:13:13] So the good news is the vast majority of comedians and comedy writers are Democrats. A lot of them don't, they don't consider themselves political comedians, but that's just where they are. And I've gotten to work with a bunch of them. My own background, I grew up in Madison, which is the birthplace of the Onion. So growing up, I read the Onion all the time, and then I wound up starting underground satirical student newspapers in middle school and high school and eventually got to write for the Onion and wrote for them for a while. And I got to have another life that went in that direction. But put in jokes. Don't be afraid of humor. I think that's really important. And there's so much to make fun of about Republicans and about the policies of the right and Trump himself without being totally hacky. And I think a lot of Democrats get in this mode of being like they're at one level afraid to offend anyone, but at another level just afraid that if they misfire even slightly they're going to screw everything up. And I actually think it's a really good practice for Democrats to let our hair down a little bit.

Sarah [01:14:20] Look, not everybody wants to join a crusade. Some people just want to join the party. You know what I'm saying?

Ben Wikler [01:14:24] Absolutely. Yes. And Democrats I think we actually have a lot more fun, and I think that we should allow ourselves to show that and let that affect our politics. I think if you make a joke and it doesn't land perfectly, but then you keep coming back and you actually show that you believe in something, I think there's a lot to say. Even on some of the most intense topics, I think it's worth pointing out that Republicans think that life begins at conception and ends. Because there's a lot to say about Republican policies and all this stuff. So I enthusiastically support your underlying note of bringing humor and comedy back to politics. My favorite moment as the chair of the Democratic Party of Wisconsin was in 2020, we had a fundraiser Zoom event with the original cast of The Princess Bride.

[01:15:14] We had the cast of Princess Brides come together and like Whoopi Goldberg came in and subbed in for a character, Billy Crystal was on and Randy Patinkin, all these amazing people. Josh Gad, who played the snowman in Frozen, he came in and played the Andre the Giant character, and he's one of the funniest comedians I've ever seen. It was a blast. It was totally fun. And it wound up being a gigantic fundraiser. And we got tens of thousands of volunteers who signed up by being part of that and giving ourselves permission to have fun and make this something that is not just a grind that we feel like we have to do, but something we want to do. And people see us having fun. I think actually that is how you create charisma and energy. And that's the hallmark of movements that wind up being successful that people want to be part of. It shouldn't feel like an obligation. It shouldn't feel like eating broccoli to be a Democrat. And I think if we scoop a bunch of sugar on top of the work--

Sarah [01:16:15] Or brats and cheese and beer as I see in the sign behind you.

Ben Wikler [01:16:19] That's exactly what I'm talking about.

Sarah [01:16:21] Yeah.

Ben Wikler [01:16:22] Brats, cheese, beer or whatever floats your boat can save democracy.

Sarah [01:16:36] Thank you to Ben Wikler. Really, really appreciate him coming and having that conversation with us. We hope you enjoyed it. Now we're in the throes of summer. Beth, today one Felix Robert Holland is home with me. He is binge watching Alvin and the Chipmunk movies, I think interspersed with Batman. He wants to watch all the Batman movies, which in no way, shape, or form, age appropriate. And then he had Cinnamon Toast Crunch for lunch. So, I'm feeling good.

Beth [01:17:10] It sounds like a perfect summer day.

Sarah [01:17:12] Right. I felt like this piece in the New York Times describing kid rotting or wild summer, which is a little bit prettier version, which is like enough with the camps every single day. We're also reaching an important milestone camp-wise because Griffin is at a symphony camp and I told him this would be his last camp. He's like, "I'm 16, stop signing me up for camps." So I'm coming to the end of the organizing camps all summer and also realizing I'm not going to do it with Felix the whole time, especially since Felix goes to that diabetes camp for 18 days. So he gets the full camp experience. But it's just too much time. It's too long of a damn summer to have them scheduled every day. If people do it, Godspeed. I can't make it work where I live.

Beth [01:18:06] While it's time consuming, it's expensive, it feels like you are an administrator for your children. I often feel like the executive assistant to Jane and Ellen, especially around summer activities. Our summer here is very different because Jane is working. And so she has shifts and my calendar is now a lot of taking her to and picking her up from her shifts at work. And both my girls swim on the community swim team. It's our public pool where my daughter is working and swimming and that is an early morning shift for us as well in the car. So I'm doing a lot of driving. Now I did just pick Jane up. She was just at church camp out of town last week and Ellen went this morning for her week at church camp, but that's really it for true summer camps. Ellen did a day camp, a drama camp, but the month of July is going to be wilder here. It's going to be a lot of driving them to the pool for work and swim. And then Ellen really does have wild summer. Like she really does run around the neighborhood with friends all day. And I often don't know where she is or what she's had for lunch or if she's had lunch at all. So I think maybe we have been doing that longer than it's been cool here.

Sarah [01:19:23] Could they ride their bikes to the pool? I'm about to set mine free on their bikes and be like don't come home.

Beth [01:19:28] No, the pool where Jane works is a good five miles from our house. It's a haul on a road that would not be safe for her to go on a bike. But they do bike around the neighborhood and it's a big neighborhood. They have a pretty big radius now where they can roam and my little one really does.

Sarah [01:19:49] Well, that's a problem. So many of the kids in our neighborhood are at camps. So he'll go see so-and-so home, but they're not home, they're at a camp. But it's just gotten so expensive. Diabetes camp is enormously expensive for lots of obvious reasons. And so we're talking to them about doing some fundraising. We're like you need some skin in the game. Amos sold some of his artwork and paid for his art camp, which was freaking awesome, let me tell you. And he really loved it. I imagine he'll do that one again. But they kind of complain. Now, once they pass over into like counselor-- so Griffin and Amos go to Camp Ernest, which is near you, a YMCA camp near you. And it was so funny, once they get to where they're actually working at camp, they enjoy it more than just being campers.

Beth [01:20:37] That makes perfect sense to me.

Sarah [01:20:38] Griffin loves it. He got to be E-Team last year where he literally did dishes all day and he was like it's the best, I want to go back. And Amos was a camper for two weeks and he moaned and complained about it. I'm like this is so confusing to me.

Beth [01:20:51] No, I get it. Jane loves to have a role. She loves her job. She absolutely loves her jobs. She comes home talking about measuring people to see if they're tall enough for the water slides and counting her drawer and making sure the cash is right and just every little bit of that responsibility she's like put it in my veins. And it's great. And I'm so surprised. We did not tell her she needed to get a job. We didn't encourage this. She just heard her friends were working at the pool and decided she was going to work at the pool too. And my mom was saying to me while she was here this weekend, "Maybe I should have pushed you to have a job like this." And I said, "Maybe, but this kind of job was not available where we lived." Where they hire 20 or 30 high school kids to all work together in a setting where they are training them. I mean, it is the city pool. So they are thinking about this as like teaching young people how to have a job. Her orientation was a lot of just here's how you clock in and out. If you're not busy, look around and see what needs to be done. It's such a great experience that I could not have programmed for her. She found this for herself and the skills that she's acquiring from it and the fun she's having trying on being a grown up are so great.

Sarah [01:22:04] Yeah. Nicholas is a huge proponent of a summer job, and that's what he did for like 10 years. He was a lifeguard at his community pool. I could never have a summer's job because I went to see my dad in the summer. My parents were divorced. And so I spent every summer in California. But he's totally convinced me that that's the way to do it. Griffin's so excited about getting paid as a counselor this year. He's just psyched. I do think it's really something they need and that's important. And it is hard because it's like I really don't want them on screens, but also I definitely spend a lot of summers just watching TV all day. I watched Adventures in Babysitting, Ghostbusters 2, and Don't Tell Mom the Babysitter's Dead, on a loop in my dad's babysitter's daughter's room on Betamax. It's like one of my core summer memories. So, whatever. I went upstairs and he was watching YouTube, and I was like, "Uh-uh, I'm going to take the remote away. You have to watch TV. No YouTube. You have to watch TV."

Beth [01:23:05] That's right. Good old fashioned television. That's what I tell Ellen all the time, too. I really don't care if she watches TV because it has a beginning and a middle and an end. And that's all I'm looking for now. Just watch something that has a story. Don't watch somebody else playing a game or unboxing something or just something that just goes on and on and with no storyline. As long as it's a storyline, I'm cool. Do it.

Sarah [01:23:25] That's why I'm even like, okay, whatever Batman's probably not age-appropriate, but I don't even care at least it's not YouTube

Beth [01:23:32] There's some good in Batman. Talk about things that we watched over and over, my aunt Liz knew that I loved watching the 60s Batman sitcom with my dad. And so one year for Christmas, she spent the whole year taping on like a VHS tape the Batman sitcoms as they came up on like Nickelodeon or wherever they were replaying them and she gave them to me and I wore those out. I watched those episodes a million times over. And that's what I did in the summer. I didn't have a neighborhood that I can ride my bike somewhere, and we I wasn't going to camp every week. I was watching Batman [crosstalk].

Sarah [01:24:08] I went to church camp a couple of times, but what I really wanted for my kids is for them to have that experience of starting as a camper at a really young age, going every single year, knowing the language of the camp and becoming the counselor. But even that, campers is a week, you have to come get them in the weekend. It's not just like does it take up the whole summer? Even if you send your kids for two weeks, three weeks, the summer is too long. This is bad. I wish instead of getting all up in people's businesses like what books are on the library at school, they would solve an actual problem for parents. Like this stupid thing we do where we're like, here's your kids for three months. Godspeed people who work full time.

Beth [01:24:58] Yeah, I do think a lot about how lucky I am that I have the flexibility to run Jane to her job and pick her up. And what would this look like if I had a job where I had to be at a place at a time and stay there the whole time until my shift was over. I feel really, really lucky that I can do this because it is hard. And with two of them both having conflicting appointments, there are times when Chad and I are both running the girls and it's hard. It's tough and it is way easier for us than for so, so many people. So I agree with you. I really want the school calendar to take a hard look and have some conversation about what it looks like to give people periods of rest, but for those periods to actually be rest instead of just a new form of difficulty.

Sarah [01:25:45] We can't wait to hear about your summer. Are you letting your kids rot? Tell us all about it. Thank you for joining us for another episode. Thank you so much to Ben for joining us. Don't forget to check out the show notes for the link to get virtual tickets to our live show celebrating our 10th birthday or to sign up for some really cool activities with other listeners that are happening the morning before the show. Can't wait see you there. And until Friday, keep it nuanced y'all.