Star Power vs. Political Power

From Mamdani's New York to your PTO, where can we work harder and where can we work less

We spent Tuesday’s episode talking about headline national and global news, and it felt pretty bleak. Today, we’re zooming in on a bright spot, New York City, and asking what we can learn from Mayor Zohran Mamdani as he crosses the first-100-days milestone. Mamdani was hailed as a unique political talent on the campaign trail. We’re interested in how that star power translates to political power and how the Mayor has pivoted from campaign to service. His initial path tells a compelling story about what Democratic Socialism might mean in practice and where the dividing lines actually are in the Democratic Party. Any way around it, Mayor Mamdani’s “pothole politics” are a stark and welcome contrast to what we see in Washington D.C.

Outside of politics, we consider the call for parents to hold hands and agree that we’ll all do less together. From Maycember sprawl to spirit week standards to the charcuterization of everything, we sort out what we’re doing and why. -Beth

Topics Discussed

• Zohran Mamdani’s 100 Days: Pothole Politics and What Democratic Socialism Looks Like in Practice

• The Affordability + Corruption + Service Formula — A Democratic Blueprint?

• Navigating the Coalition: Mamdani, Trump, Hochul, and the Art of Getting Things Done

• Outside of Politics: Maycember and the Case for Parents to Just… Stop

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Episode Resources

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Zohran Mamdani / NYC

• Mayor Mamdani Unveils Website Tracking First 100 Days Achievements (NYC Mayor’s Office)

• Zohran Mamdani celebrates ‘pothole politics’ in a raucous rally marking 100 days as NYC mayor (CNN)

Maycember

• Parents, Consider Underachieving (The New York Times)

• The Family Commons by Chloe Sladden (Substack)

Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:29] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:31] This is Beth Silvers. You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. We spent Tuesday talking about the federal government and the global picture- not pretty. Today, we’re going to zoom in to New York City, where Democratic star Zohran Mamdani just passed the 100-day mark as mayor. Democrats across the country took notes from Mamdani as a campaigner, so we want to consider him in office. We’re asking today whether and under what circumstances star power translates to political power. Outside of Politics, we’re coming even closer to home. Has Maycember come early in your house? It definitely has in mine. Like a month and a half early. There’s a Maycember sprawl out there. And an essay called “Parents, Consider Underachieving” says that perhaps parents like politicians are over promising and setting ourselves up to either under deliver or die trying. So we’re going to talk about that.

Sarah [00:01:24] Fair. Before we get started, if you enjoy this episode, we’d like to ask you not to dress up for a theme day or bring individually wrapped nut gluten and red dye free cupcakes to a class party tomorrow. We would just simply love it if you would tap five-star rating and leave a quick positive review in the podcast player of your choice. It only takes about 30 seconds. It means the world to us as we continue to try to help more people achieve a healthier and more well-rounded perspective on politics.

Beth [00:01:50] Next up, let’s head to the Big Apple. Sarah, last night, Jane Silvers my 15-year-old daughter had to file her taxes because she worked at the city pool last year. And she’s going back this summer, she’s very excited. And it was funny she was talking about how she was comfortable giving some money to Andy Beshear but not to Donald Trump. And like a lot of things, she knows that’s not how it works and chooses not to care. Like that is her framework for it.

Sarah [00:02:25] Yeah, because she’s really giving it to the Kentucky legislature, not Andy Beshear.

Beth [00:02:29] That’s right. But it was interesting to hear her perspective on all of that. And I thought, she’s really seeing what MAGA governance looks like. I picked it up mostly as a campaign strategy. And I think about it in terms of a campaign strategy all the time. But this is her vision of government. People get their tax refunds, those refunds-- she’s going to get $15 back-- doesn’t come close to making up for the increased cost that come from tariffs and an unnecessary war and against the backdrop of corruption and fewer government programs that mean fewer jobs, not just fewer jobs in government but in general. And she sees that nobody has their hands on the wheel when it comes to artificial intelligence. So this is a good moment to think about what is an alternative vision? We need lots of alternative visions for people like her who are seeing what MAGA governance has meant.

Sarah [00:03:25] Well, it’s so interesting that you say this. I had this thought because of America 250 and because of my age and because I have children approaching young adulthood. I spent a lot of time thinking, well, what was different than how I grew up? And when I was growing up, there was stability in the governance and instability in the politics. And in this weird way, I feel like we’ve like flip-flopped. There is a type of stability in the politics, in the tribalism, in the polarization, in the fragmentation of media, in the influence of the internet and online spaces. And there’s like complete instability in the government, in the functioning of particularly the federal government and how that would play on you, particularly as a young person, how it plays on me as a middle-aged person. We were talking politics, but it was like there was this undercurrent, this assumption that center will hold. I don’t want him to win, but we’re talking about maybe some back and forth on cultural issues. We’re not talking about these things we assume to always be true changing permanently. And that just feels so different than today.

Beth [00:04:59] It does. And I think everybody has an awareness that there probably shouldn’t be stability in either. Stability in governments led to a malaise around governance and governance not keeping up with the world as it was evolving. And as I watch the Democratic primary for presidents starting to take shape, it feels too stable to me. There are a lot of things happening. You and I used the word on our spicy episode over on Substack yesterday of nostalgic; I think there is a lot of that sense of, well, everybody’s going to go write the books now. They’re going to start meeting the donors, and oh, you appeared in South Carolina, you went to New Hampshire, you went Iowa. And you can feel that a shift is needed in light of the complete instability in governance. And that’s why I think that looking at Mamdani is interesting because here you have a much younger person who did advance what campaigning looks like. He did it a different way. And a different way than people had settled on was the new way. You know what I mean? I feel like Trump did a thing and everyone reacted and said, oh, this is how you campaign now and Mamdani evolved that even more. So I’m really interested in looking at what he’s done, even though it’s only been 100 days and that’s not very long, especially in a city like New York. I’m interested in seeing what we can divine about an alternative vision from him and what we learn about bringing some of that instability to governing to try to evolve it to an iteration that makes more sense to people like Jane and your sons.

Sarah [00:06:35] Well, with Mamdani what I feel like he forces me to do is not accept sort of instability. Because I think for what it’s worth, people are realizing, oh no, the stability was nice. JK. Yeah, it might’ve led to some allays and distrust in the institutions, but our global economy was built on stability, the understanding of a type of global rule of order. Kept a lot of violence and authoritarianism and check around the globe and there’s going to be an enormous amount of suffering as a result of this instability. What Zohran Mamdani to me pushes is not the flip or the flopping between campaign and governance, but this integration to say because of our media environment, because of the sort of decentralization, because of the way people live their lives, because of this instability is playing out in their lives. You have to stop thinking about them as separate things. The communication strategy, the persuasion, the action, the showing up in governance has to all go together all the time. And I hate to say this, but in a ways Trump does that. In a way,.

Beth [00:08:01] Yeah, totally.

Sarah [00:08:01] He never stops campaigning, right? But he just campaigns. He doesn’t govern to a certain extent. Or he certainly doesn’t govern with a long-term strategy. What I see Zohran Mamdani doing in a really integrated way is tying both together. I do have a long-term strategy and I do have a long term idea about governance that you cannot separate from this approach to communication. Maybe that’s it, like what he revolutionized wasn’t just campaigning, it was communicating. And it’s like he’s like the good angel version of what Trump does. Talking all the time in ways that perform and connect in our new media environment. But he’s doing it in service of something besides himself.

Beth [00:08:53] Well, I think service is an important word there. What I see Mamdani working out in real time is what does democratic socialism look like in 2026? And I’ve been critical of Democrats for hooking into affordability too much because I just think if you win by affordability, you lose by affordability. There’s only so much that you can do about how much groceries costs. No matter what office you hold. You can do some things, you can definitely make it worse, as we’ve seen, but there’s only so much that you can do to make it better. And if you tell the public it’s going to be cheaper under my leadership and it’s not cheaper, you’re sunk. Mamdani talked about affordability all the time. And I think there’s a little bit of a shift in what he’s doing as mayor, as he works out the contours of this message, what people ask for versus what they really want. Prices are going up. For a lot of reasons the mayor of New York has nothing to do with and no control over. But I think this focus on what he calls “pothole politics” which is a nod to the sewer socialism of a couple decades ago, where it’s not so much socialism as ideology, as big picture vision of government coming in and making life work better for people, but a sense that government does exist to serve people in really mundane ways that do make their lives better. That getting trash in trash cans makes people’s lives better. And I think the way that he’s integrating as you’re talking about that campaign and governance is showing himself personally serving. You can find him everywhere on the internet wearing a reflective vest because he’s out with people with the scaffolding. He’s actually helping remove some of the snow. Like the way he’s demonstrating maybe this vision of populism or socialism is less about high-minded, big-scale programs and more about a sense that first and foremost, I work for you and I work for you in the details, in the blue collar sense, I work you. And I think people are really hungry for that and it is such an effective contrast to what’s happening in Washington, D.C.

Sarah [00:11:10] Yeah, because I think there are three threads there that I want to knit in together. I think affordability is a winning message because it’s true, because everything is so damn expensive and you have to speak to that. So I see the temptation from all kinds of democratic politicians. I think the risk what you’re articulating is so true. And I think the other winning message that you knit together and present as this sort of work ethic, which to me is tied to the generational leadership, which I’ll get to in just a second, put a pin in that, is the corruption. It’s everything is expensive because they’re making themselves rich. So you don’t have to solve the prices. Look, people aren’t stupid. They understand that there is a certain amount of price setting at the grocery store. That is not within the control of the federal government. For better or for worse, what I have witnessed from the American populace is a complexity of thinking and understanding that I maybe had given up on if I’m being honest. Like I do see people, especially around Iran and gas prices and just maybe it was going through COVID and understanding the global economy and the global supply chain, all these pieces. I think the silver lining of the pace of change in our lives is that people are understanding it’s complicated, man. And so I think they get like he can’t come in here, wave a magic wand and make everything cheaper.

[00:12:54] But if he comes in and if he says all the time, I know it’s too expensive. I hear you. Here’s the things here. And not just that it’s too expensive, but I understand what is too expensive. Rent, transportation, childcare, groceries. I get it. And I am working hard, which to me, like I said, is generational. He can literally work harder. He’s in his thirties. He can’t shovel the snow. Chuck Schumer going to go out there and shovel snow? No, sweetheart’s too old. They tell you literally not to shovel snow if you’re over like 45. It’s like a public health recommendation, okay? Some people have heart attacks. So it’s not just the shoveling, it’s like working all the time. So it’s all those pieces. I’m not here to just get rich for myself. I came here to work really hard all the time for you. And so I think it’s not that it doesn’t matter, but I think if you put those pieces and say I’m fighting corruption, I’m working harder than anybody’s ever worked before. And it is to try as best I can to get to what is costing you so much money. He doesn’t have to bring down the price of gas. People know he can’t do that. I think there’s just a lot more breathing room when you treat people like they have a thinking mind and with respect and that their struggles are serious and you are doing everything within your power to get at that problem.

Beth [00:14:26] I think that’s right and I think that he’s doing an effective job of listening for what the problem is among a large tent of people. It seems like he’s interested in what the problem is from people who would not self-identify as democratic socialist. So he does his 100 day speech and he says, yeah, taxes need to go up on the wealthy knowing that he can’t make taxes go up on the wealth in general. The only lever he really has are property taxes. And he has heard from black homeowners in New York, don’t raise property taxes, that will hurt us. I understand the thinking, but that will heart us. So I think that he’s doing a good job listening. I think all the time about when I was doing human resources work and we were trying to get people to pay attention to open enrollment. This is your health insurance. I need you to go in and make these selections and pay attention to what’s going to happen next year. And constantly people would say the communication around this is so poor. And I learned from listening that what people say usually when they say the communication is so poor is not you didn’t tell me or even you didn’t tell me in a bunch of different ways because we would. What’s underneath that is I need the world to be a little bit simpler. I need you to show an awareness that I have a whole job to do and you’ve just added another piece to it.

Sarah [00:15:48] Yeah.

Beth [00:15:48] And if you want me to handle this other piece, I need you to take something off my plate while I do. And I think the politics version of that might look like this orientation to service. Chuck Schumer can’t shovel snow, but what can he do that looks like service to his constituents? I think that one reason it’s really tricky for a governor to run for president while they’re still the governor is that people start to get a sense that you’re not working for me anymore. And I like you best when you’re working for me all the time. I feel it everywhere. This is why I don’t like politicians with podcasts because I think, wait, you’re supposed to be working for us and this seems to be about you. And I think Mamdani has found this way and he hasn’t been doing it long enough for us to get too cynical about it, but he’s found this way of both advancing his own profile and message while very effectively communicating, I’m out here working for you.

Sarah [00:16:47] Now what I am watching, and it looks like he is also rather naturally talented at this as well, go figure, is listening and working with other political figures. That’s not something you have to do as much during a campaign. So, the ability to work with Governor Hochul, which he seems to have been able to do. I mean, she basically refused to ever endorse him. He’s got to deal with the city council. And then of course we have his complete and utter love fest with Donald Trump.

Beth [00:17:39] So I think with Governor Hochul, it’s going to be interesting to watch as time marches on here because so much of what he campaigned on, he does need her on board for. She has come in and said yes to over a billion dollars for a childcare program. Now it is far from universal free childcare for all New Yorkers, but it will get about 2002 year olds into a program and that’s not nothing. That’s the kind of thing you can learn from and evolve and build on. There are going to be places like higher income taxes where she’s not going to want to do him a solid. So how he navigates that I think will be really interesting. He’s got people in his coalition who are upset that he’s endorsed her re-election campaign because they see her as not one of them. This is what always I find off putting about democratic socialism because my primary lens for it has not been someone governing. It has been the socials and the democratic socialist strain on social media feels like such a small tent. And a small tent that intends to get smaller constantly because there’s a real controlling thread that runs through it, a sense that there is one correct way. And if you step over the line on any dimension or you see it differently anywhere, you’re out. Well, you can’t run a city that way and he’s not running the city that way.

Sarah [00:19:04] I don’t get any sense from him that he’s afraid of that.

Beth [00:19:07] No, I don’t either. And I think that having somebody out there to show that who’s actually like won an election. AOC battles this all the time because she hasn’t done that either. She said, I’m in office now, I want to get things done. It’s not so simple as it is on X. And she takes a beating over it from some people in her tent, but it has expanded the people who find her appealing. And I that’s going to happen with him too.

Sarah [00:19:32] Well, because he didn’t win because he’s a democratic socialist. That’s not why he won. He won because he saw how Mamdani is really good at this. And he talked about ideas and had plans that people connected with. And he was an amazing organizer. I mean, they have a huge budget shortfall. He’s got to find some money. It’s not going to come from cuts. He’s got some tough challenges. It’s a big, hard city to run with just an incredible diversity of people in coalitions. I know that the Jewish population has been disappointed in so many of the things he’s done. He got wrapped up in this terrorist attack at Gracie Mansion. Like he’s dealing with some really tough stuff. And to watch him navigate it, I think when I was reading through his report, I think what’s so hard is you don’t get the credit for the shit that didn’t happen and for preventing things is just so hard to chalk up as a success. And like going to Donald Trump and doing the tap dance he did, it has as reported prevented ICE in New York. That is an enormous win that would be disastrous. They don’t call it New York nice like Minnesota and that was a disaster. They call it New York attitude. Do you see what I’m saying?

Beth [00:20:54] Absolutely.

Sarah [00:20:54] Like that would go badly for a city that I care a great deal about. And so I think his ability and from the reporting I read, it was like one of his female maybe his chief of staff or somebody who had the idea to put all this together for Trump in a way that like spoke to his ego. I feel like you could put into Claude now, whether you’re the king of England or the mayor of New York or some poor South American country he’s beaten up on. How do I make Donald Trump be nice to me? And you probably get a pretty good plan at this point. But credit where credit is due, that seems it was just really, really smart. It was just, really, really smart. And I just think that if you can charm everybody from Kathy Hochul to Donald Trump, and you’re working with all these like city council and boards and you getting even an inch of progress, that’s a victory.

Beth [00:21:47] Well, the other thing he prevented that I think is worth noting, it’s easy to imagine a world where Trump and his administration yanked federal funding from New York City. They talked about it. They said they were going to do it. New York already has a structural budget problem. That would have been disastrous. And the willingness to go do that dance, even though the dance is pretty obvious, to go do it takes humility. That is an act of service. It’s funny, preparing for this episode and thinking about the pothole politics and the way he’s approaching Trump, I thought this really eviscerates some of that ideological battle inside the Democratic Party because the people who I think of who operate most this way would be considered way, way to his right. I think about Gretchen Whitmer, how she has been willing to work with Trump because again you can get some things done and you can prevent an incredible amount of harm if you’re willing to do it. I think About Josh Shapiro and that get shit done orientation, government is here to serve you and service as the focus is popular. And I think service as a focus can be popular wearing a lot of different labels and wearing a lot of different rally tones and in a lot different bodies. I don’t think you have to be in your early 30s to pull off what he’s pulling off. If you center that idea, I roll up my sleeves and I work for you all day, every day. I wake up thinking about it. I go to bed thinking about and I get it. And we won’t bat a thousand or anywhere close to it, but you see I’m trying and you never questioned that I’m trying. That’s I think a winner.

Sarah [00:23:26] Well, and I think the other thing you can’t discount is the snow. Listen, it was so much snow. Just blizzard upon blizzard, more snow than New York had seen in so, so many years. And if you live in the middle of the country, like I do, where we also got an enormous amount of snow and they just pile it into a corner of a parking lot and leave it there, okay? Think about the logistical challenge of doing that in a place for New York City. There aren’t big parking lots to pile snowdrifts in and just leave them there. It’s really, really hard. And he handled it, not just the snow itself, but the temperatures and people freezing. I mean, for as little governance experience as he had, that could have be a disaster and it wasn’t.

Beth [00:24:20] And some people did die and he did take some heat early on and it seems like they adapted. Another thing that I’m looking for in leaders of all varieties right now is who has learned something and changed because they learned something. I think it’s really fascinating that Mamdani has kept on the more moderate police commissioner. It feels to me like he’s surveyed the scene and realized that if crime started to rise, for any reason, early in his tenure, he will own that and it will end him. It will finish. All this goodwill that he’s amassed will go. And I think learning that lesson is important politically, especially if you have a long-term vision about where you want to get. You can’t afford missteps. And he wanted to really come in and say, in non-emergency situations, we’re sending social workers instead of police officers. That looks right now like two people in the mayor’s office, a very, very small initiative, but that’s the way to start a very small initiative instead of believing that you got it all figured out because you’ve had some big dreams. When you put it into practice this way, that’s way to do it. A little bit at a time and see what you accomplish and iterate and iterate and work with people and prove out your success.

Sarah [00:25:41] Well, I just feel like he’s careful when it needs to be careful and creative when he needs to be creative in a way that’s been pretty productive. Now, look, neither of us live in New York City. I’m going back in May. I was there this winter. I do go to the city a great deal. I love it so, so very much. And maybe the New Yorkers will roll in our comments and be like everything is a shit show. But from where I’m sitting, as a lover, occasional visitor and Kentuckian, he is doing creative things where he can make a quick change that could help people. I love the rest stop for delivery workers at City Hall. Stuff like that. And then being really careful when it’s something like crime or taxes or being creative with the grocery stores. He’s going to get one of those grocery stores up. And it’s like one free grocery store, two free grocery stores is some creative juice and a probably smaller lift. So do it. You know what I mean? I think he’s being very smart and strategic. It’s not just him. He is, by all reports, a really good team, including people with a lot of experience in New York City government. So it was just so helpful because it’s so bad in other places AKA the United States federal government, that to see this level of strategic adaptability and creative energy and just service. It’s like I’m here for you. I work for you. Instead of you guys are all here to make me rich.

Beth [00:27:11] That’s what interests me most. I obviously can’t speak to how it’s going in New York City. I think that you have to, if you’re a Democrat watching him and thinking about what it means for you, consider that the job of a mayor is very different than the job of a senator or the job of a president or the jobs of a governor even, or the mayor of a different city. New York is a really unique gig. But the ethos that he’s projecting that I think is amassing political capital for him throughout a bunch of different groups, that interests me as something that could be repurposed and retrofitted to a lot of other places. And I hope that it will be because the biggest concern that I have right now for the midterm elections is that things are going so badly that there is a temptation to say, well, it will be enough for candidates who are not Republicans or who are not MAGA Republicans. And that’s all we need. And I just don’t think that’s true. And I don’t it serves the Democratic Party. I don’t think it serves the country, especially in the long-term to kind of rest on, well, he’s so bad and we’re not, it’ll be okay. So I like seeing someone who’s saying, I got a vision. For where we could go. And here’s what my vision looks like. And it’s a big enough vision or at least it’s motivated by a big enough idea that it could translate elsewhere. Outside of Politics today, we’re going to talk about Rachel Feinzeig in the New York Times writing an essay called “Parents, Consider Underachieving.” Could I read you just a little bit from the opening to set the scene?

Sarah [00:29:01] Please.

Beth [00:29:01] “I see you parents who have been killing it this school year. You were there for the Halloween parade, the Valentine’s Day craft session, the inexplicable request to come to class for your child’s half birthday. You made sure said child was dressed up for every school spirit day, somehow managing to continue caring even as you knew the inevitable next school spirit day loomed. Now it is spring. And while I admire your continued enthusiasm, I for one have very little spirit left. I’m asking for your support. I am proposing that we all just give up together.”

Sarah [00:29:32] Well, first of all, she stole this idea from Jen Hatmaker. Let’s just start there. Jen has been on the enough. Like, I don’t know if Jen ever called it Maycember, but for a long time she’s just been like don’t come at me in spring. I can’t do it in May, I’m done. Let’s get everybody across the finish line. I do want to speak to the sprawl. I actually think what you and I are experiencing is that-- and you can read it in this opening. Maycember is really about elementary school students. Everything she’s listed as an elementary school student there. I think the older your kids, the reason you feel the sprawl is because a lot of their stuff, for example, prom, which is what I’m running around telling them with right now, is at the end of April. And you’re starting to get like, if you have any testing, if you’re picking courses, like you’re doing recitals. I think this sprawl is as your kids get older, you’re not going to-- parties at the school it’s just like a totally different thing, but it’s not less, it’s different.

Beth [00:30:36] It’s different and it is administratively challenging in its own way. And I know you’re in this situation too when you have one in elementary school and one or two in high school. Melding all that together, thinking along all those different dimensions, okay, I’m still kind of managing this one’s needs, but I’m just guiding and coaching this one. It’s a lot.

Sarah [00:30:58] Well, and there’s still like spring sports and shit. There’s just all this other stuff. And I think a key component that doesn’t get articulated a lot, including in this piece, about what gets so hard around late April, early May is you’re trying to think through summer. So you’re trying to wrap up the school year and you’re trying to book camps and plan and coordinate basically two and a half to three months all at once.

Beth [00:31:24] It is a reflection of the natural world. I was just thinking the same thing because so many things are ending and beginning at the same time. And it does take its toll on you. And even where it’s natural and that’s how it’s supposed to be, I do think there is a continued need to talk about how it doesn’t all have to be so special. I can report one small step for mom kind, but a giant leap for me in this category. We were gone for spring break over Easter and as we are out in the mountainous West, my girls are like, “Where are our Easter baskets?” And I said, “Out your window. That’s where they are. This is what I got you for Easter. You’re welcome”

Sarah [00:32:15] I have to confess because I’m an insane person, especially since I have a 16 or 14, 11-year-old. I packed chocolate Easter bunnies, jelly bean eggs and Cadbury cream eggs in my suitcases with little bags and had them out there for the Easter morning because I am a crazy person, clearly.

Beth [00:32:33] No, I thought about it and I was like, Beth, that’s bananas.

Sarah [00:32:39] I’ve had Easter baskets delivered to the Airbnb before.

Beth [00:32:44] Why? I get it, but also I have to push back on myself and be like, come on, man.

Sarah [00:32:51] Well, here’s the thing. I really have to be careful. Felix is already accelerated, for example, with his cursing language, media habits, so much because of his older siblings. But it’s tempting to like stop some of these things. I’m, like no, Griffin got a full 12 years of this shit. I can’t just like peace out Felix at [inaudible]. When I think when I sent the Easter baskets, God, he was probably like six or seven. Like he still believed in the Easter bunny. And so I thought, I got to do it. And it was really fun for them to have an Easter egg hunt under the palm trees-- we were in Florida.

Beth [00:33:38] I’m sure it was, but do you see the contribution to this situation?

Sarah [00:33:41] I do. But here’s where some things by the third kid I was like I haven’t been to a classroom party... Let’s put it this way, I do not remember the last one I went to one. I was, like, no I’m not doing that. Now the blessing of having boys is often they are like I’m not doing that stupid spirit day. I don’t want to do that. I don’t t want to dress up. They like a pajama day. They like to wear their baseball hats. But I don’t get swept up and the like full situation of the spirit day because I think sometimes it’s like the kids don’t even care.

Beth [00:34:17] I think this is another place where I have some progress to report because Ellen’s Elementary School, every year they do a run as a fundraiser and they do huge Spirit Week around the run. And we have a very, very active PTO. They practically all act like full-time employees and I’m grateful for them and to them. And they put together an amazing Spirit Week idea a couple of years ago. And I am sure that in the meeting they had it was all good vibes. It’s going to be so special for the kids, so memorable. We’re going to raise a bunch of money for the playground, hooray, hooray. And when I got that list, I did want to put my fist through a window because it was so complicated. I chose to buy so much because Ellen really wanted to participate and do it right. It was a little bit less intense the next year. This year, it was pajama day, school colors day. Wear this t-shirt that we give you at the beginning of the year day. And I thought, okay, crazy socks. We’re making some progress. We’ve all agreed. We’re going to do a little bit less here and I’m here for it.

Sarah [00:35:22] It was the same for our Christmas one. It was like two years ago, because I actually texted Jen Hatmaker and I was like, help, we’re going the wrong way. It was like 12 days. I was, like, guys, it’s Christmas season. Do you remember? And then the next year it was two. I was okay. Somebody, not me this time, sent an email and was like my dawgs, dollar down. I’ve noticed some progress. I just think what I really like that she names is it is hard to opt out individually. I love those stories about the community. There’s an article in the New York Times where the community got together and was like, okay, we don’t want our kids to have phones. Everybody, can we get on board with this? And they did, and it was magical. Like we are social beings presenting everything through the lens of like individual free will and maximalization. Ain’t working. And so where can we get together? Like, can we talk about revolutionary territory where a PTO meeting was set up or a survey was sent to say what would you like us to get rid of? What’s too much? What’s the biggest stress point for parents that the PTO creates? Can you imagine?

Beth [00:36:52] Standing and applauding in my heart.

Sarah [00:36:54] Can you Imagine?

Beth [00:36:55] Yes.

Beth [00:36:56] Like that’s some PTO leadership I would be interested in seeing. I think there are so many places where that’s called for right now, where people are just hungry for someone to say, what can we cut? Where would you rather write a check at the beginning of the year than participate in all these fundraisers? Are you willing to pay for three people because you can afford it and other families can’t? I think a lot of people would say, yes, absolutely. And then take the butter braids off my docket. Maggie talks a lot about this, that she and her husband have a Taekwondo studio, so they’ve thought a lot about kids’ activities. And she said a lot of this pressure comes from you as a business owner thinking, well, you’ve paid for your kid to take all these lessons.

Sarah [00:37:43] Yes, I think about that all the time.

Beth [00:37:44] I need to deliver something spectacular for you at the end. I’d be delighted to say, no, you don’t. I had a morning this week where I spent 35 minutes-- I counted them-- managing tickets.

Sarah [00:37:59] Who’s keeping count? Me.

Beth [00:38:01] I managed tickets for Ellen’s various end of year performances for 35 minutes. I didn’t even add up the money I spent on all those tickets because it would make me sick. I didn’t think about the costumes that were involved. Just tickets for various things. I spent 35 minutes on that. That’s silly. And I would be happy to say, “People, I will pay you for the lessons and the classes. And you don’t have to wow me at any point. I believe in the intrinsic value of what you’re offering. It’s enough, thank you so much.”

Sarah [00:38:32] I have a more, even more revolutionary suggestion.

Beth [00:38:35] Okay, let’s do it.

Sarah [00:38:37] We don’t have to go to all those.

Beth [00:38:39] Yeah.

Sarah [00:38:40] We just don’t to go all of them. Griffin often is like, “You don’t need to come to this.” And I’m like, “but you’re performing.” He’s like, “So what? It’s not going to be that good. Don’t come.” I have friends who if their kid is in a local community theater production, they will go to every performance. There’s like seven. I have friends who every parent and every grandparent is at every practice. Maybe we don’t need to be. Maybe we do not need to present at every single thing.

Beth [00:39:15] This is such a tricky balance because on the one hand I totally agree especially about the practices. That to me is easy, take the practices off your list. But then I get in my head I have really good conversations with my daughters in the car. Like I miss already driving Jane everywhere because Jane tells me the most in the car and now she’s writing with friends to things. And while that’s completely right, she needs to develop that independence. She needs that time with them. Everything about that is good. It makes me a little bit sad. As an adult, I have such appreciation for the hours that my parents spent at band shows. Like it’s a big deal to me that they went and they sat there. And I think that as much of a pain as it was sometimes and as much as a pain it is sometimes for us, it’s fun to know the other parents who do the thing. Like there’s some community in that stuff. Finding that balance is hard, but I do agree like baseline if we could not judge each other for missing things, if we can come to a place where we’re culturally like, hey, I’m going to go to this one, why don’t you go to that one, where we make it normal to miss some things, I think that would be helpful.

Sarah [00:40:27] Well, back to the New York City of it all. I have a friend, Elizabeth, who has three beautiful children in New York city. And you can just see like the difference when the kids can move independently. Like when you don’t have to drive them somewhere and they can go to this rehearsal or this practice, like the freedom. I think we’ve built this car culture that has contributed to the over-parenting in this like truly structural way that I think is really important and it’s like, yeah, I totally hear what you’re saying about like time in the car but also we could just not go to as much shit. They could not be in as many activities and we all just stay home and go for a walk. Like it’s so hard and I do think the sense that you have to witness it all is tied up in the maximalization of parenting. And it’s not all like tiger parenting, right? I think some of it is this perpetual sense of how fast it goes and how you want to soak it up. But you should talk to Jane less and you should feel sad about that. And that’s probably exactly what you need to feel because she’s going to move away and you’re not going to talk to her that much.

Beth [00:41:39] That’s right.

Sarah [00:41:39] I mean, not my babies. They’re going to live next door. But other people probably need to make this journey. Just saying. And so I think it’s a lot of things. I think it’s like the car culture. I think it’s the over emphasis on the nuclear family. So 50 years ago, 60 years ago in theory, you would probably be living by some family members with younger kids, you’d have nieces and nephews, you’d be involved in their life. They would have kids at different times. So it wouldn’t feel like this like all or nothing family experience because there’d be more family around to experience.

Beth [00:42:18] There’s a writer I really like on Substack named Chloe Sladen who writes the family commons. We’ll link that for you in the notes. And she posted in Substack notes that chart where you see the difference in one family of the radius that kids were allowed to explore by themselves. And it’s like the grandfather has this massive like eight mile situation where he would walk to fish. And then the father’s circle was like our house to this pool. And now grandson is like basically around our block and that’s it. It’s a really stunning visual that puts some of these pieces together. And then she said, “I would love to see this mapped with some statistics about how many of the neighbors parents know.” Because that is a huge piece of it, right? I let my kids roam pretty free around here because we know a lot of people around here and that not possible everywhere I understand. When you’re thinking about where am I putting my time then, I would rather put my time in knowing more people around here than getting the theme days exactly right. And I think the challenge is that a lot of those activities, themes, games, practices are our vehicle to know each other. And so how do you unravel all of that?

Sarah [00:43:41] No, I totally agree. My kids have free run of our neighborhood. First of all, their grandparents live pretty like up the street. And so I always know there’s somebody in the neighborhood next to us. And I know a ton of people in our neighborhood, parents, and they’re going to their friend’s houses. So I think that makes a huge difference. And I would like them to be even more free and I have let them ride their bikes further than sometimes makes me comfortable. I think that’s a huge part of it. And I think the other thing she names really well is all of this activity sets the bar so high for what fun looks like, what a good day looks like. It’s not back in the day where something my kids take totally for granted would have been a huge deal for me. And now they’re like standard of what is fun, what is a cool day. It would have been like a trip to Chucky Cheese. Well now that’s not a big deal. A trip to a jump park’s not a big deal. We say this all the time. My kids are like, “You took us to these things.” But my children have been to like nine countries, almost all 50 states. Felix is 11. Like the travel, the day-to-day weekends. Now we have pretty lazy weekends sometimes still, but just the standard of what a day should look like is so high. I think because we feel like we’re competing with the screens and the screens can hold their attention. And so to get their attention away from that, it has to be pretty engaging.

Beth [00:45:14] Yeah, and I think that I forget because of how hard we’re all working to make everything magical and engaging for them, and because of the screens, it is often the simpler things that are the most memorable. Like, Ellen loves a picnic. And by picnic she means, like, we throw a couple peanut butter sandwiches in a basket and walk outside to our backyard and spread out a blanket. So I’m trying to remember that especially as it’s getting warmer and there are more of those options where you can really just kind of bring it down. To do that, to bring it done. And that’s why I felt really proud of myself about the Easter basket. I thought I’m just going to say like, “Look, here’s the natural world, hooray.” Now Chad and I did run into a Kroger to replenish our cooler of roadside snacks and we picked up a couple of Reese’s peanut butter eggs, which I think are the superior form of Reese’s delivery vehicles, which maybe sounds like another Outside of Politics.

Sarah [00:46:08] False.

Beth [00:46:08] But we handed those to them in the car and we were like, “Happy Easter everybody.” And I thought, this feels good to me. This feels good. Like they had an expectation. I did not meet it. They saw that the world didn’t end. It was still a lot of fun. That what they were doing was still really special. And I’m just going to keep working on that. Like, how do I do less, but make it mean more? That feels like the opportunity.

Sarah [00:46:30] Well, to the Easter basket of it all, where we started. I do hope, now, we’ll have to hear from our listeners with really young kids. Maybe my algorithm has just moved on. But there was a moment where the Easter baskets were out of control. Bicycles, three new outfits, just consumerism on crack. Now, maybe it’s just because everything’s so expensive and maybe that’s why Easter baskets got more reasonable. And then there were like St. Patrick’s Day gifts and Halloween gifts and all this stuff. So I’m like I’m hoping some of this just by the pragmatic reality of how much it costs has been dialed back a little bit. I don’t see it as much in my life. I don’t see people posting pictures of that, even I people I know. So maybe there are places where people are like, okay, enough is enough.

Beth [00:47:26] Well, I also think that a factor here that cannot be discounted is what I’m going to call the charcuterization of everything. Never in my life have I given a gift in a basket that has not cost like three times what I would have spent had I not given it in basket format.

Sarah [00:47:44] A hundred percent. First of all, baskets are expensive.

Beth [00:47:48] Baskets themselves are expensive, and then you get into all this filler. I have multiple times lately, birthdays, at Christmas, started getting together stuff for a basket for my daughters, and then picking up all this stuff that they don’t need that I will end up throwing away six months to a year from now, and then I’m just teaching myself to methodically put it back and be like, I’m going to get this one thing that they will like and I’m going to wrap it in paper. And that’s going to be that.

Sarah [00:48:16] Yep, I love it. Okay, so everybody just take it down a notch.

Beth [00:48:21] We’re all taking it down the notch.

Sarah [00:48:23] Together.

Beth [00:48:24] Yes, we’re holding hands.

Sarah [00:48:26] Yeah, we’re not presenting another area in which we’re all failing as a parent.

Beth [00:48:29] No.

Sarah [00:48:30] We are happily coming together to say, hey, let’s take it easy on ourselves and each other.

Beth [00:48:39] Here’s our reminder to chill out. You have permission to chill out. Well, thank you all so much for chilling out with us today. We’re so glad you’re here. We can’t wait for your thoughts on both aspects of this conversation. We’ll be back with you on Tuesday for another new episode. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.

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Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

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