Such a valuable episode. I too don’t want to continue this Us VS them. I also did appreciate the perspective of understanding how someone could see him as a good person overall. I think if the both parties could find leaders that want to have these very public conversations and get people like yourselves on their staffs to hit all of the opposing podcasts shoes etc… I believe that people are generally people and are going to be “good” if given the opportunity to understand where the “other side” is coming from.
I do still see Charlie Kirk’s underlying premises as deeply racist, homophobic and misogynistic. Yes there is more after the blips that are played over and over, but he KNEW that those would be the short clips played over and over by the left. His phrasing was certainly not accidental. The fluff after the clips made it easy for his fans to not feel like it was truly racist or homophobic, while ignoring that the underlying info about DEI, women etc was based on a lie.
BUT liberals have seriously lost the game in the game of getting a message out there- any cohesive message. Fox News etc has lied for a long time but now it seems that the RNC has given up winning on the quality of their ideas and even the legislators are very comfortable straight up lying all of the time. I don’t see how that tide changes
I wish you 2 could be a part of that change on the larger political stage! But in the meantime that is for what you do do. This episode did soften my heart a bit and made me want to have some of those convos I’ve been needing to have. Probably over scotch or tequila rather than text but you get it.
Tough sledding in the comments. I was a longtime Patreon supporter but lapsed when you moved to substack. Back to contributing.
I don’t like piling on. I think your episode is instructive and trying to get to a constructive and sustainable place within ourselves and with others. As always, I appreciate you and what you do.
Now for the ‘but’. I have listened to both of your Charlie Kirk episodes, and what I guess I feel is missing is more empathy for how unfair and difficult it is to be the only people who ever extend an olive branch. These battles for the soul of our nation cannot be won online; only in our homes, our families, and our communities. That requires outreach, but it’s difficult. Charlie Kirk was a complex person, but his impact was not complex. His impact was getting Trump re-elected, and it is his number one goal. The second Trump administration is not complex, or nuanced. So, I personally have felt scolded as a listener for feeling anger towards Charlie Kirk and what he stood for. I haven’t said a peep on my socials about his death one way or the other and I won’t. But I don’t think I should have to apologize or feel bad about feeling complex and even negative feelings towards him, even in the wake of his brutal murder.
If he wanted me to remember him as a complex figure, he could’ve stuck to commenting on the state of romantic relationships and family formation for GenZ. But caping for DONALD TRUMP of all people makes all of the nuanced things he said ring hollow to me.
I appreciated so much of this conversation. I really felt Sarah’s point about having these talks with people in your life and I know there’s a lot of value in different points of view. I don’t currently have those friends in my life - we moved mid-pandemic and making friends as an adult is hard. But it was another reminder of why it’s worth it.
Also I do not reread or rewatch anything. It’s both bc my TBR is so long and I think what Beth said - I’m so aware of utilizing my time. I’ve been trying to be really aware of being human and NOT optimizing everything so next year I’m planning to read some classics, many which will be rereads!
Hi friends, long time listener first time commenter! I so enjoy this podcast. It is my only regular podcast and has been a great source of prompting nuanced thought and a supportive place for processing really hard things for a long time.
For that reason, in this episode, I was a little (very?) sad to hear Sarah comment that the podcast was a space for the white ladies, and to talk about how diversity in groups is good but challenging and hard, so we need our own race specific groups to retreat to sometimes. I went back and listened to it 3 or 4 times to make sure I fully processed and understood what she was saying and appreciated the nuance. Also cried a little.
I usually present as a white lady these days. But I’m not, really. And I think that - the belief that I belonged, that i was the audience, that I was part of it, and then being told I wasn’t only because I check a certain box on a piece of paper - that’s why wokeism / dei / whatever you want to call it matters. It’s all done totally imperfectly. Please let’s continue to critique how it has gone wrong, it hasn’t been successful the way we hoped. But it wasn’t a bogeyman. The goals weren’t wrong. Probably the worst thing about wokeism in my view was that it seemed to define people by inherited characteristics they have no control over. And that’s what that comment did, too - it made me (and others) outsiders for no reason we could ever change.
I also examined how my reaction would be different if a black person or an immigrant said something similar. I would understand it more. And I think that’s because there’s more of an internalized assumption that those states of being are predictability correlated with a set of common life experiences. That may be a wrong assumption, but it’s one I think many of us have. And I’d like to acknowledge the unfairness of that double standard.
As we go forward in thinking about and processing what has been wrong about the liberal approach and what we want to leave behind, may I encourage us to try and also recall, and stand for, what we believe has been and remains good about it? To me, I believe seeing the good in the work that’s been done to try and help us see each other the way our creator does is equally as important to finding a way forward as is finding the critiques and points to correct.
I hope that one of them or Maggie respond to you personally if they haven’t. I (biracial male) didn’t take it that way but I certainly won’t try to invalidate the way it made you feel. I think for me it goes back to the other part of what Sarah said about our “parasocial” relationship, and what I “know” or think I know of Sarah is that I don’t think that’s the way she meant it.
While I appreciate your suggestion to look at Charlie as a whole person (eg. father), I don't appreciate your cheerleading of Charlie as the debater. Kirk's so-called debates had no moderator, opponents were shut down before they fully aired their opinion and contested his "facts", and Charlie always gave himself the last word. As a long time League of Women Voters member, I can assure you that his mostly one-side discussions, did not qualify as debates.
Also, just because someone wears a big fat cross or says they are religious, does not make them religious. Even the Bible distinguishes between genuine, God-centered faith and "man-made religion." James 1:27 states, "Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world". Have you researched his position on immigration? He was not a kind soul and thus, cannot be called "religious".
When Sarah said "I don't want to do it anymore," I texted my college roommate, who is still my sounding board 25 years later, and we had a moment.
When Beth said: "I'm also recognizing that we can't have medium conflict about the budget if we're having all-out war over what it means to live a good life or whether a good is possible." Yes, yes, yes. This is what we need to be fighting for.
How do we get there? Because I know we don't get there on social media.
Per usual....I often don't know where to even start with my comments because I could go into so many different directions. I can say that I really appreciate what you are trying to do with your discussions even though I know that I sometimes don't feel that same way. I want to be someone who can step back and see the bigger picture. I want to be someone interested in the rich text lives of everyone. But damn it if I don't just get exhausted, pissed off, and feeling like things are just going to get way, way worse. I don't want to be that person...and the combination of feeling in sync with they way you discuss things, and sometimes at odds with it, reminds me to take a deep breath and just do the best I can.
As for plants, I would let Sarah stealthily repot my plants any day. I'm trying but seem to only be successful with my violets so far.
As for TV, I end every night with some sort of TV program I know will partly shut my brain down or is just simply feel good stuff. I end up rewatching some of my staple sitcoms (The Good Place, Schitt's Creek, Brooklyn 99, Ghosts-UK and US, etc.). I'm so happy to have a new season of Only Murders in the Building right now. And sometimes I'll check out something really old to see how it holds up. Let me just say Darren in Bewitched is an asshole and I think Endora was right about everything now!
For outside of politics: My husband and I have created a ritual (we literally refer to it as The Ritual) where every night we have a small sweet treat like a single cookie or a small dish of ice cream while we watch one episode of a half-hour comedy. We take turns choosing which series we're watching and commit to watching the entire series. It's not dependent on what's currently on - we've watched current things like Only Murders in the Building and It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia but also older stuff like New Girl and Galavant. It's become a great way to have that little bit of wind-down time at night.
I have not read all the comments yet but when Sarah was talking about how CK's message to husbands was to "do better" to be able to financially support a SAHM I wondered "how does this align with the push from many on the right that you shouldn't go to college because it will corrupt you?" Because a college degree is still needed for many careers that make high salaries (not all obviously).
I'm going to be thinking about the Kirk piece of this discussion for a long time, and don't have anything to add to the conversation at the moment. HOWever, I did want to share that I laughed so hard at Sarah going into plant lady stealth mode and repotting one of Beth's plants without talking to her about it. I can just imagine a chat between Sarah and the plant: "What is goin' on here?? Why are you looking so sad? Well, we are going to do something about THAT."
Just here to say, this was the event that finally drove me off the socials. So thank you B&S for validating that decision! The group chat I have with 2 girlfriends about the book series we are reading together is saving my life right now, and meeting almost every need I looked to social media for! Can I please recommend this to everyone???? I literally said to them today “The whole f$&@ing country needs this thread right now you guys!”
https://www.nytimes.com/2025/09/26/opinion/charlie-kirk-turning-point-usa-liberal.html?smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare
Such a valuable episode. I too don’t want to continue this Us VS them. I also did appreciate the perspective of understanding how someone could see him as a good person overall. I think if the both parties could find leaders that want to have these very public conversations and get people like yourselves on their staffs to hit all of the opposing podcasts shoes etc… I believe that people are generally people and are going to be “good” if given the opportunity to understand where the “other side” is coming from.
I do still see Charlie Kirk’s underlying premises as deeply racist, homophobic and misogynistic. Yes there is more after the blips that are played over and over, but he KNEW that those would be the short clips played over and over by the left. His phrasing was certainly not accidental. The fluff after the clips made it easy for his fans to not feel like it was truly racist or homophobic, while ignoring that the underlying info about DEI, women etc was based on a lie.
BUT liberals have seriously lost the game in the game of getting a message out there- any cohesive message. Fox News etc has lied for a long time but now it seems that the RNC has given up winning on the quality of their ideas and even the legislators are very comfortable straight up lying all of the time. I don’t see how that tide changes
I wish you 2 could be a part of that change on the larger political stage! But in the meantime that is for what you do do. This episode did soften my heart a bit and made me want to have some of those convos I’ve been needing to have. Probably over scotch or tequila rather than text but you get it.
This episode met me where I needed it to. Such good, deep thinking, it helped me get unstuck processing this situation.
Hi Sarah and Beth -
Tough sledding in the comments. I was a longtime Patreon supporter but lapsed when you moved to substack. Back to contributing.
I don’t like piling on. I think your episode is instructive and trying to get to a constructive and sustainable place within ourselves and with others. As always, I appreciate you and what you do.
Now for the ‘but’. I have listened to both of your Charlie Kirk episodes, and what I guess I feel is missing is more empathy for how unfair and difficult it is to be the only people who ever extend an olive branch. These battles for the soul of our nation cannot be won online; only in our homes, our families, and our communities. That requires outreach, but it’s difficult. Charlie Kirk was a complex person, but his impact was not complex. His impact was getting Trump re-elected, and it is his number one goal. The second Trump administration is not complex, or nuanced. So, I personally have felt scolded as a listener for feeling anger towards Charlie Kirk and what he stood for. I haven’t said a peep on my socials about his death one way or the other and I won’t. But I don’t think I should have to apologize or feel bad about feeling complex and even negative feelings towards him, even in the wake of his brutal murder.
If he wanted me to remember him as a complex figure, he could’ve stuck to commenting on the state of romantic relationships and family formation for GenZ. But caping for DONALD TRUMP of all people makes all of the nuanced things he said ring hollow to me.
I appreciated so much of this conversation. I really felt Sarah’s point about having these talks with people in your life and I know there’s a lot of value in different points of view. I don’t currently have those friends in my life - we moved mid-pandemic and making friends as an adult is hard. But it was another reminder of why it’s worth it.
Also I do not reread or rewatch anything. It’s both bc my TBR is so long and I think what Beth said - I’m so aware of utilizing my time. I’ve been trying to be really aware of being human and NOT optimizing everything so next year I’m planning to read some classics, many which will be rereads!
Thank you for this episode. It was one of my favorites yet 💜
Jumped back in to add: watch the new Billy Joel documentary on HBO. You're welcome, y'all.
Hi friends, long time listener first time commenter! I so enjoy this podcast. It is my only regular podcast and has been a great source of prompting nuanced thought and a supportive place for processing really hard things for a long time.
For that reason, in this episode, I was a little (very?) sad to hear Sarah comment that the podcast was a space for the white ladies, and to talk about how diversity in groups is good but challenging and hard, so we need our own race specific groups to retreat to sometimes. I went back and listened to it 3 or 4 times to make sure I fully processed and understood what she was saying and appreciated the nuance. Also cried a little.
I usually present as a white lady these days. But I’m not, really. And I think that - the belief that I belonged, that i was the audience, that I was part of it, and then being told I wasn’t only because I check a certain box on a piece of paper - that’s why wokeism / dei / whatever you want to call it matters. It’s all done totally imperfectly. Please let’s continue to critique how it has gone wrong, it hasn’t been successful the way we hoped. But it wasn’t a bogeyman. The goals weren’t wrong. Probably the worst thing about wokeism in my view was that it seemed to define people by inherited characteristics they have no control over. And that’s what that comment did, too - it made me (and others) outsiders for no reason we could ever change.
I also examined how my reaction would be different if a black person or an immigrant said something similar. I would understand it more. And I think that’s because there’s more of an internalized assumption that those states of being are predictability correlated with a set of common life experiences. That may be a wrong assumption, but it’s one I think many of us have. And I’d like to acknowledge the unfairness of that double standard.
As we go forward in thinking about and processing what has been wrong about the liberal approach and what we want to leave behind, may I encourage us to try and also recall, and stand for, what we believe has been and remains good about it? To me, I believe seeing the good in the work that’s been done to try and help us see each other the way our creator does is equally as important to finding a way forward as is finding the critiques and points to correct.
I hope that one of them or Maggie respond to you personally if they haven’t. I (biracial male) didn’t take it that way but I certainly won’t try to invalidate the way it made you feel. I think for me it goes back to the other part of what Sarah said about our “parasocial” relationship, and what I “know” or think I know of Sarah is that I don’t think that’s the way she meant it.
While I appreciate your suggestion to look at Charlie as a whole person (eg. father), I don't appreciate your cheerleading of Charlie as the debater. Kirk's so-called debates had no moderator, opponents were shut down before they fully aired their opinion and contested his "facts", and Charlie always gave himself the last word. As a long time League of Women Voters member, I can assure you that his mostly one-side discussions, did not qualify as debates.
Also, just because someone wears a big fat cross or says they are religious, does not make them religious. Even the Bible distinguishes between genuine, God-centered faith and "man-made religion." James 1:27 states, "Pure and undefiled religion before our God and Father is this: to care for orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world". Have you researched his position on immigration? He was not a kind soul and thus, cannot be called "religious".
“Grace is unearned, by definition.”
Gets me every time. On my third listen thru of this episode.
When Sarah said "I don't want to do it anymore," I texted my college roommate, who is still my sounding board 25 years later, and we had a moment.
When Beth said: "I'm also recognizing that we can't have medium conflict about the budget if we're having all-out war over what it means to live a good life or whether a good is possible." Yes, yes, yes. This is what we need to be fighting for.
How do we get there? Because I know we don't get there on social media.
Per usual....I often don't know where to even start with my comments because I could go into so many different directions. I can say that I really appreciate what you are trying to do with your discussions even though I know that I sometimes don't feel that same way. I want to be someone who can step back and see the bigger picture. I want to be someone interested in the rich text lives of everyone. But damn it if I don't just get exhausted, pissed off, and feeling like things are just going to get way, way worse. I don't want to be that person...and the combination of feeling in sync with they way you discuss things, and sometimes at odds with it, reminds me to take a deep breath and just do the best I can.
As for plants, I would let Sarah stealthily repot my plants any day. I'm trying but seem to only be successful with my violets so far.
As for TV, I end every night with some sort of TV program I know will partly shut my brain down or is just simply feel good stuff. I end up rewatching some of my staple sitcoms (The Good Place, Schitt's Creek, Brooklyn 99, Ghosts-UK and US, etc.). I'm so happy to have a new season of Only Murders in the Building right now. And sometimes I'll check out something really old to see how it holds up. Let me just say Darren in Bewitched is an asshole and I think Endora was right about everything now!
For outside of politics: My husband and I have created a ritual (we literally refer to it as The Ritual) where every night we have a small sweet treat like a single cookie or a small dish of ice cream while we watch one episode of a half-hour comedy. We take turns choosing which series we're watching and commit to watching the entire series. It's not dependent on what's currently on - we've watched current things like Only Murders in the Building and It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia but also older stuff like New Girl and Galavant. It's become a great way to have that little bit of wind-down time at night.
I have not read all the comments yet but when Sarah was talking about how CK's message to husbands was to "do better" to be able to financially support a SAHM I wondered "how does this align with the push from many on the right that you shouldn't go to college because it will corrupt you?" Because a college degree is still needed for many careers that make high salaries (not all obviously).
Because ideological consistency is not the point!
I'm going to be thinking about the Kirk piece of this discussion for a long time, and don't have anything to add to the conversation at the moment. HOWever, I did want to share that I laughed so hard at Sarah going into plant lady stealth mode and repotting one of Beth's plants without talking to her about it. I can just imagine a chat between Sarah and the plant: "What is goin' on here?? Why are you looking so sad? Well, we are going to do something about THAT."
Just here to say, this was the event that finally drove me off the socials. So thank you B&S for validating that decision! The group chat I have with 2 girlfriends about the book series we are reading together is saving my life right now, and meeting almost every need I looked to social media for! Can I please recommend this to everyone???? I literally said to them today “The whole f$&@ing country needs this thread right now you guys!”
I think it's a real power move to give hate one less audience member.