The Privatization of Public School

Discussion post for October 25, 2024

Public education is one of the most special, important institutions in America. A massive percentage of American adults were educated in public schools. There have always been debates about how best to support those schools and what it means to give parents alternative choices for their students.

This year, Kentucky has an amendment tackling that debate head-on. On today’s show, Sarah and Beth talk with KY Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman and high school student Peter Jefferson about Amendment 2 and the broader national trends around how we fund education.

TOPICS DISCUSSED

• Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman on KY Amendment 2

• Peter Jefferson of the Kentucky Student Voice Team

• Outside of Politics: The Failure of Memory

EPISODE RESOURCES

Process your post-election stress with Sarah, Beth and Vanessa Zoltan of Harry Potter and the Sacred Text! Join us in Boston via live stream on November 7 - for a fun night among friends. As premium members, you can use the code FIVELIVE2024 for $5 off the price.

• Jacqueline Coleman (@jcolemanky) (Instagram)

• Kentucky Student Voice Team 

• Kathy Bates shocked to learn she did thank her mother in her Oscar speech for "Misery" (CBS News)

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.

Sarah [00:00:29] Thank you so much for joining us today. If you've listened to the show for any length of time, you know that we are both Kentuckians. This election is an incredibly important and nationally relevant vote happening in our home state to determine the future of public education. If you've seen an ad where you live about parent's choice or school choice, then you know this is bigger than Amendment 2 here in Kentucky. So today we're talking to our lieutenant governor and former public school teacher, Jacqueline Coleman, along with a Kentucky student, about the efforts to privatize public school. And then at the end of the show, for Outside of Politics, we're to talk about memory.

Beth [00:01:06] Before we begin, I just want to remind you that we will be in Boston for a live show on Thursday, November 7th, with our dear friend, Vanessa Zoltan. If this week is any indication, I think however this election turns out there's just going to be a lot to process. A lot of soul searching to do. A lot of questions to ask and we are excited to do that with Vanessa, who is one of, I think, our times best askers of important questions about life. So I'm super excited for it. If you can join us in person, you can get your tickets at the link in the show notes. You can also get a virtual ticket to join us from anywhere in the world and you will be able to watch that later if that exact window of time doesn't work for you. So check out that link and join us to process this election on Thursday, November 7th.

Sarah [00:01:47] If you can't get enough of us in these final weeks before the election, make sure you head over to Substack where you can become a premium member of our community and get access to our two bonus shows Good Morning and More to Say. Yesterday we had an old school episode of Pantsuit Politics for our Spicy More to Say. We talked for an hour. I cried. Beth calmed me down. We really got into the bigger, deeper questions of why this election feels so terrible. So I highly recommend. If you are super stressed, go over and process that stress with us on the Spicy More to Say yesterday.

Beth [00:02:22] I think the title of that episode is like, ugh, that's the sound we kept making.

Sarah [00:02:26] That's the sound we made simultaneously, so go check that out. Now, let's talk about Amendment 2.

Beth [00:02:41] Lieutenant Governor Coleman, thank you so much for coming back to Pantsuit Politics.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:02:44] Thank you guys so much for having me back.

Beth [00:02:46] You are uniquely qualified to talk with us about Kentucky's Amendment 2. So for people who don't know you and don't know Kentucky's Amendment 2, can you give us a little summary of what we have going on here in the Commonwealth?

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:02:59] So I am Kentucky's 58th lieutenant governor and I serve with Andy Beshear our governor. We won in 2019 and then we were just reelected in 2023. And we are very proud of our education first administration. And a whole lot of that has to do with the fact that Governor Bashir Basheer, I like to say, were smart enough to pick a teacher as his running mate, and that teacher just happened to be me. So I've spent my life in the classroom, I've taught high school social studies, and coached high school girls’ basketball, and was an assistant principal when then Attorney General Andy Beshear asked me to run with him. So I literally went from serving in the assistant principal’s role to campaigning to being lieutenant governor. And so right now, we are facing what I view personally as an attack on public education in Kentucky with Amendment 2 on the ballot this fall in just a couple of weeks actually.

[00:03:54] And so Amendment 2, for those who don't know, is essentially an amendment that, if passed, would allow Kentucky's General assembly to take and do whatever they choose with funding for public education as it exists right now. Amendment 2 would overturn seven sections of the Kentucky Constitution that protect public schools and the funding mechanism for public schools, which ultimately is what helps us to be able to keep the doors open. And so overturning those seven sections and giving kind of a free rein to the General Assembly to do what they will, whatever they wish, with public education is something that I am adamantly against. And I don't care who's in charge of the General Assembly, and I wouldn't care if my own party was in charge of it. I just don't think that that's a good idea.

Sarah [00:04:44] Well, my husband was saying that we should really speak to the wisdom of our state founding fathers who protected the funding for public school in our Constitution. That should speak to a lot of people. Because I want you to talk about two things. First, I want you to talk about the political process (I'm using that word very loosely) that got us here. Because I had the distinct privilege of being in Frankfurt when this machination went through with you; you were pretty hot. So I'd like to talk about the political process that got us to this point, including past attempts to undo public school funding. And then I want to talk about why this is relevant around the country because we can kind of see this playbook. They're getting a blank check, but we know what's been played out in other states in that process. So tell us about how the, again, 'political process' of how we got this amendment.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:05:37] Yeah, it was a very guarded and cagey process and that's me being nice about it.

Sarah [00:05:42] I told you could curse if you want to.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:05:45] Don't tease me. And let me go back to the last several years. So in the last three sessions we've had legislation that has just breezed by in our Republican supermajority, House and Senate, that would create funding mechanisms for vouchers and charter schools. They passed a bill that then would allow open enrollment in all of our public schools, which, by the way, is public school choice. So we already have school choice in Kentucky. That's a big argument that we hear. They keep trying to pass all these bills to establish the system of school vouchers and charter schools in Kentucky. And they've never been able to do it because of our Constitution. And at every turn, they have been defeated by a unanimous decision in Kentucky Supreme Court because of the language that exists in our Constitution.

Sarah [00:06:37] The wisdom of our founding fathers.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:06:39] The wisdom of our founding fathers. Thanks Sarah. And so this time around, I guess they just accepted the fact that they weren't going to be able to get any legislation through, no matter what kind of lipstick they put on the pig. And they said, well, we'll just put an amendment on the ballot and try to see if we can get these sections of the Constitution overturned. Well, in the process of this amendment, it has to be voted on by the General Assembly to be put on the ballot. And then it has to pass with a vote from the public. It's how it works here. And so it passed, of course, with flying colors.

[00:07:14] However, any time that any representative stood up to ask questions about the bill, about its implications, about what it would mean, about a definition of how this would work, what would it do? Every single one of them were gaveled down time after time after time. There was no discussion allowed about what Amendment 2 to means and what could come from it. And so it truly is a void. Now, as Sarah mentioned, we can look to other states and see how they plan to fill this void and in every way, shape and form, it has been just abject failure after abject failure. And we have been able in Kentucky to put this off longer than most states because of our Constitution.

Beth [00:08:03] I live in northern Kentucky, which is one of few areas in the state where I think they're hoping to run up the vote total on this amendment because we have a number of private schools. And I've noticed in the mailers that I get every day about Amendment 2, that this blank check idea is critical to the effort to convince people to vote for Amendment two. I get a lot of mail that says this is not a voucher program. This is not what you've seen in other states. I have yet to see what it is. What do you think they're really after if this passes?

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:08:40] I think they're after the school voucher scheme. I think it truly is. And I call it a scheme because it is. And let me just pause for a moment here and say I am for all forms of education. I go to private schools. I go to public schools to celebrate kids and their wins. Whatever form it is, I'm for it. My issue with Amendment two is the taking of public tax dollars and sending them in the form of a voucher to private schools. So let me just say that because I don't want anyone to think that I'm against private schools because I'm not. I just don't think public funding should go to fund private schools that don't play by the same rules as public schools. So let me say that [inaudible].

Sarah [00:09:26] Put a pin in that. We're going to come back to that.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:09:28] Okay. And so, Beth, you're right. You are in northern Kentucky, which is one of the centers of private schools in Kentucky, as is Lexington and Louisville. So the three you could say 'urban areas' in Kentucky is where a lot of that is happening. I think they're after school vouchers. I think they're after being able to utilize school funding, public dollars to be able to fund, even in part, private school education. And I think it's being fueled by three people and none of them are from Kentucky. It's being fueled by Betsy DeVos in Michigan, by Jeff Yass in Pennsylvania and by the Koch brothers in Texas. And all three of them have a couple of things in common. They are all billionaires with a B, and they are all out to privatize public education because they realize that there is money to be had.

Sarah [00:10:21] Let's go to the not playing by the same rules. I want to talk about that because there's confusion. There was a Facebook post in my community from a friend who works at one of our local Catholic schools. We don't choose our students, which is an interesting choice of words, I guess, pun intended, because of course you choose your students. There's an admission process. I think she was in a very vague way trying to get at this argument that you don't play by the same rules. You are not legally obligated to educate every student to follow an IEP, to follow a 5O4. So talk about that. Talk about those different roles that private schools play by.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:11:02] So in public education-- and listen, I can share my frustration with public education and the red tape and the bureaucracy all day long, but there's nothing about Amendment 2 that's going to make that better. So when we look at public education, you have a system of individual education plans or IEPs, and those have to be fulfilled for any student with special needs. That does not have to happen in private schools. When you look at qualifications of teachers in public schools, you have to have a bachelor's degree in the area in which you teach. You have to have a certification, teaching certification in the area in which you teach. And up until recently, you had to have a master's degree in that subject area as well. In the private schools, you don't have to have any of that. None of that is required. In the public school system, we have systems of assessment and accountability.

[00:12:01] I don't like when we use the word accountability when we talk about assessments, but that's a whole ‘nother show. And so all of those are used to show progress, judge areas of growth and areas of needed improvement. And that's how schools are ranked. Private schools don't do that. And even if they did, they would not have to publish those results. Public schools have to abide by sanction laws. Every school building has a site based decision making council that's made up of parents and a couple of teachers and an administrator. Private schools don't do that. So, I can just keep going back and forth to recognize that the reason that public funding goes to public schools is to make sure that they are transparent and accountable. Which helps us find the areas where we're falling short so that we can move forward, which gives us the opportunity to celebrate the areas where we are doing well. You don't know where those areas are in private schools. You don't know how your funding is being used for staff salaries or resources or whatever it is.

Sarah [00:13:07] Security. All kinds of security requirements for the public schools as well.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:13:11] Security. Yeah. And in public schools you have kids that are in free and reduced lunch. I mean, the vast majority of students in Kentucky are on free and reduced lunch. They're not going to get that in a private school. Transportation is required to be funded by state government for public schools. Now, it hasn't been the way that it should be, but that to me is an argument that we're not in a space to where we should be talking about moving dollars elsewhere anyway. So for kids who couldn't get to school without a bus, for kids who need breakfast and lunch at school, for kids who may have a reading disability or whatever challenge is there. Those challenges are not going to be met in a private school because they just don't have the resources to do it the way that public schools do.

Beth [00:13:55] I would love for you to talk more about our legislature and its track record with unfunded mandates for schools. One of the most impactful back and forth I've had with a representative in Kentucky's Assembly has been about the decision to require school resource officers, but the decision not to fully fund school resource officers. And I was emailing with my representative saying here in Boone County, we are using our budget to pay for those school resource officers, but we have a much broader tax base than most of Kentucky. If there is a school shooting in a county that cannot do what we've done and pick up the tab for that resource officer, I don't think that that's right or something that everyone should feel okay about in Kentucky. And that's what bothers me most about this amendment. There are surgical approaches to school choice that I could probably, at least in theory, get behind. Again, I don't think they serve all of Kentucky and that's a problem. But I really don't like the idea that this legislature that historically has said to our schools, do more, do exactly what we want you to do, do it the way that we want you to do it hasn't put any money behind it.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:15:06] You're exactly right. And I'm going to I'm going to quote my grandfather because he used to tell me this is a very Kentucky saying, by the way, that he would say, "You know sis, you can't win the Kentucky Derby with a pack mule." And there is no truer state to me when we get to public education. Because you're right, if it's good in theory and if you know it's so needed that you're going to pass a law to require it, then put your money where your mouth is. Because when you don't, you're exactly right Beth, you'll regret it. I worked in schools where there were sorrows. And in my in my experience in rural Kentucky where it takes an exceptionally long time to get to the school building, I was very grateful for that. In other situations I've worked in when I was an assistant principal, we didn't have enough. So I never knew who was coming to school when we needed someone. Our kids didn't have relationships with those people. It was just a very different thing that took way longer than it should have and could have put folks at risk, quite frankly. But yeah, so they passed legislation that requires SROs when the schools are able to fund them.

[00:16:16] Basically, that saying if your town is wealthy enough to protect your kids, then go ahead. But all you kids in Ballad County or in Mercer County where I'm from, good luck. And by the same token, when it comes to education funding with this General Assembly, what they'll tell you is they have funded education at record levels. The reality is I could put one more dollar in my savings account today than I had yesterday and I could say I've got more money than I've ever had before. Doesn't make you rich. And so that's why I always talk about adequately and equitably funding our schools because they don't have the resources that they need. So I'll give you a couple of examples about why Amendment two makes me nervous, especially in light of what this General Assembly has done over the last few years. So transportation, as I mentioned, is supposed to be funded at 100 percent by the state for all of our schools. It has not been 100 percent funded by the state since 2006; 2006 is the year that this year's senior class was born. And so we can even find the funding, generate the funding, move the funding to get kids to and from school but now we want to open a conversation to have about how to move funding to other systems. That's just completely wrong to me.

[00:17:35] We since Governor Bashear and I've been in office, are very proud of the fact that we have one of the strongest economies that Kentucky's ever had. Now, that didn't happen overnight and it didn't happen in a vacuum. It took all of us to make that a reality. However, as we sit on record budget surpluses, record rainy day funds, record job creation, record economic development investments, year after year after year, our General Assembly has failed to fund the most basic tenets of education, textbooks, technology, classroom resources. And I know when the budget goes to them, the budget recommendations from the governor goes to the General Assembly. It has all of those funds allocated already. So they actually took them out. And so when it comes to having this conversation about how to improve education in Kentucky, it's not this red herring of let's allow parents’ choice because, by the way, it's not parents’ choice. We can talk about that, too. It truly is about how can we zero in and put the funding behind education that we know it needs and deserves to be able to do the things we need it to do?

Sarah [00:18:43] Well, and my question is, we've heard a lot about the record federal funding for schools from Covid and how that's going to be running out. That's what I'm worried about, is the intersection of how they were with some smoke and mirrors to use federal funding that's coming to an end. Then you passed Amendment 2 and they've got a blank check to go after the little state funding. How do you see those intersections coming together?

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:19:08] Yeah, I know there is a lot of stress out there from our school districts because they had a funding during the pandemic, which was absolutely needed. And most of them will tell you they don't know what they would have done without it. And so all of those things are coming to an end and we all knew that they would. And so now our schools are scrambling to figure out how to provide services that they were previously providing with that federal funding. In some cases, some schools only use those dollars for one time funds, which that would probably be the best use of that funding. But others they didn't have a choice and they were trying to figure out how to continue to provide what they needed to provide. And they know all of that is running out. So when you couple that with the potential that we could be seeing a gigantic diversion of state funds from our public schools into private schools, it would put every school in rural Kentucky, in my opinion, in grave danger.

Beth [00:20:09] Yeah, I would love to hear you talk more about it not being parents’ choice and also to flesh out a little bit more the idea that we already have school choice in Kentucky.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:20:17] Yeah. So one of the things that the legislature did in the process of trying to get charter schools or school vouchers, was they in a piece of legislation were able to pass what they call open enrollment. And I actually think this is a good idea. So I'm going to give them credit for this because as it is now, wherever you go, wherever your home is districted, that's your home school. And it would take quite a bit for a family to get their child into a different school if they wanted to go elsewhere. And Beth, this is particularly important, I know, for northern Kentucky, because you all have so many schools that are so close together that you could easily find a school that is the right fit for you without taking funding away from public education. So when they pass this, what this does is it allows any family to send their child to any school they want to in Kentucky as long as it's a public school. That's already school choice, and it's school choice that doesn't put our public schools in such a financial detriment. And it doesn't [inaudible] off public dollars and send to private schools. It simply allows parents to make that decision.

[00:21:27] And in my home of Mercer County, we have two school systems. We have Burgin Independent and we have Mercer County Schools. That's how a lot of counties are rural counties. There are many counties that only have one school district as the county school district. But in places like Lexington, Louisville, northern Kentucky, in most counties you have at least a couple of options that you could utilize as a parent. However, let me just say this. The biggest misnomer and the biggest piece of misinformation about Amendment 2 that I continue to see is that this is an attempt to allow parent choice in which school their kids go to. And I'm here to tell you that as great as that sounds, it is simply not true because I can take my child to a private school and it doesn't matter if I have a personal check in my hand to pay the tuition or a school voucher in my hand to pay the tuition, they can turn her away.

[00:22:28] And they can turn her away for any reason that they choose. Maybe she has a special need. Maybe we don't meet the socioeconomic status that they find appealing. Maybe her grades aren't great. Maybe she has discipline issues. Whatever it is, they can turn you away. And so another issue to think about is our tax dollars being used to discriminate against kids and families and we don't even know about it. And so I don't want parents to get caught up in this thing of I'm going to vote yes because this will let me choose wherever I want to send my kid to school. The private schools make those decisions. They make those decisions if you have all the money in the world. And so that the school voucher scheme is not going to change that.

Sarah [00:23:12] Yeah. And this gets to something, we've spent a lot of time on education, but there is an undercurrent, there's a narrative here about tax dollars that really bothers me. This sense that my friend texted me, I'm all for school choice. I was in the city school system. I moved to the county and I got to keep sending my kids to the same city school system. But I do think when we talk about schools and particularly when we talk about tax dollars, tax dollars aren't tuition. What happens to the people's tax dollars who don't have any kids, whose kids are grown? They also contribute to the public schools. This sense that your money is still your money for this allotted cause is really bizarre to me. And I think it's trickling out. I forgot what state it is where they're like if you don't like that they're not keeping homeless people out of in front of your business, we'll give you some of your property taxes back.

[00:24:08] What is happening? We're not consumers. We're citizens. We are contributing to the common good. And I think this idea that it's like your money and you should be able to take your money where you want to, no, that's not what taxes mean. That's not what it means. And it's not true. It won't be true for everyone. And I think it just contributes to this consumer mindset we bring to not just public schools, but public works and all kinds of public spaces. And then we complain that no one has respect for the institution or respect for each other or respect for their fellow citizens. Well, you train them. They're a consumer. And that's all that matters, is their consumer experience and their dollars. And that's what bugs me so much psychologically, philosophically about this amendment.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:24:54] Yeah. And I'll add another layer to that, because what we hear a lot is about school vouchers will create more competition and it'll make our schools have to be better. And, listen, it's not like people are sitting around with their feet kicked up like, well, I hope nobody comes by today and makes me do my job. It is a physically, emotionally, mentally demanding job if you do it well. And so just to think about like the notion that someone would say this will make our schools better because it'll increase competition, no one in public education sees another school as their competitor. You are squarely focused on I need to help this kid get from where they are today to where they want to be tomorrow. That's how micro focused that you are on your students. And I do not care what the school down the road is doing. I don't care what hand they've been dealt or what scores they have. These kids in my classroom are my focus and my job is to move them along. We all start in different places.

Sarah [00:25:56] Yeah. It's not a marketplace.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:25:57] No, it's not.

Sarah [00:25:58] Look how well that's worked with daycare. It's a different type of thing. It's not a black and white marketplace where the rules of capitalism apply.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:26:09] Right.

Beth [00:26:10] Which doesn't mean that people can't have frustration with public schools and opportunities to make public schools better. You mentioned briefly site based councils in Kentucky. I think a shocking number of people do not understand if you are a parent who's frustrated with your public school experience, how many places there are to go with that frustration and how many opportunities there are to contribute to your public school improving. Will you talk a little bit about our design in Kentucky? And if you're someone who's looking at this amendment thinking, well, I'm not happy with our public schools, like what's your vehicle to channel that frustration?

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:26:47] In Kentucky, we passed education reform way back in the early 90s and we were a national leader in this. And we haven't done anything even remotely close to that since, which breaks my heart because I know we have the potential here to do it. But one of the key pieces of that legislation was to create state based decision making councils. So every single school building, whether it's an elementary, middle or high school, each one of them has a site based decision making council. And based on what the population is, the number of kids you have, you have a certain number of parents, and it's usually equal to the number of teachers that are on the site base. The parents elect the parent representatives, teachers elect the teacher representatives, and then there's one administrator, usually the principal, that kind of chairs the committee. And you make every decision about the budget of that school, about the personnel, how to allocate that funding. There are decisions that could be made about the curriculum and resources that are made available, all kinds of things.

[00:27:49] I was on site based as a teacher for several years. That's the group that helps hire the principal of the school, which determines the culture of the school and the direction of the school. Then you have your entire district has a school board. And those are public elections that are on the ballot, and all of those people have to be from that school district. They do not have to have kids in the school district. They may, but they may not. On site they should do, though. With your parent representative you have to have a child in that school building. So you have layers of administrators and athletic directors and department chairs and site base. So there's all kinds of ways to focus on the different areas that you may not like or you may wish to see something change or be different. And so before we throw the baby out with the bathwater, we really need folks to understand what unique opportunities Kentucky parents actually do have to have a say in their child's education.

Sarah [00:28:53] I also want you to speak to people who don't have kids inside the system. To the wisdom of our founding fathers here in Kentucky, we've been reading Alexis de Tocqueville's Democracy in America. And I would imagine as someone who worked in the public school system and then went into public service, you see firsthand the importance of public education. When we're talking about misinformation, when we're talking about diversity of thought, when we're talking about shared purpose as a citizenry. Can you talk about why it's not just about tuition and your kids personal experience. If maybe your kids are grown and maybe your kids went to private school, but you still have some concerns about public education, why does it still matter? Why are we still doing this democratic experiment in America?

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:29:47] We think about this being-- we have we have democratic schools. And to hear people call them government schools I'm just like, no, that is not what this is. But the thing that I say, I bet I'll say it at least once a day, is the future of Kentucky's economy is in our classrooms today. That is where our future entrepreneurs are, our future small business owners are, our future podcast host are. You never know. We all have a vested interest in ensuring that our kids have the best experience and opportunities possible. So 90 percent of Kentucky's kids are educated in Kentucky public schools?

Sarah [00:30:35] Ninety percent. I want to underline that. Ninety percent.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:30:38] Yes. And again, all of those different services are available to them. From special education to we've got kids that are graduating with associate's degrees and dual credit courses to the AP program. I mean, it runs the gamut. And that is about meeting our kids where they are and serving each kid in the different way that they need. Now, is it perfect? Absolutely not. We can sit here all day and I will talk with you about red tape and bureaucracy and how everything falls to the teacher’s responsibility. And we've got administrative bloat. I will be here with you all day long on those things. But this is not the way to fix that. This is not an answer for that. And so I really look forward to just crushing this amendment and getting back to the conversation of how can we make public education better?

Sarah [00:31:35] Yeah, because I just think, too, what bothers me is I think people-- again, that consumer mindset and your child and we all want what's best for our children. Of course, we do. Of course, we want them to have the best education possible. But our sweet babies don't exist on an island. They have to go out there and start the businesses and vote alongside and serve in communities alongside and go to church alongside people who are going to be products of the public education system, period. Ninety percent. We're not going to turn that around any time soon, if ever. And I hope never, because I believe in public education as a glue that holds the citizenry together. And so whatever choices you make for your child and you get them the opportunity, they still have to exist in a country full of people who go through the public education system, period. That's the reality.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:32:31] And that's why it's so critically important that we learn those democratic principles of working together, of living in community, of being there for one another. And I will say this, in the aftermath of the tornadoes in West Kentucky and the flooding in east Kentucky, that's what we saw. We saw neighbors helping neighbors. We saw people showing up for each other, no questions asked. I just want to get back to that, and I don't want it to take a natural disaster to bring that out in people.

Beth [00:33:01] I grew up in a very rural part of West Kentucky where there was just one school system. There was one high school for the entire county. So choice was just not on anyone's mind about anything. And the schools were drastically underfunded. My K through 8 building did not have air conditioning. And I vividly remember how hot it was many of the days that I sat in school there. How many things happened that would just like shock the conscience today. But then I think about the fact that those things would shock the conscience today I think they're, too, because we have made progress. Things have come a long way, even in places like my home county that do not have anything approaching the tax base of the area where I live now. I feel like you and Governor Beshear have been so effective because you've had to lead through so many crises in talking about one Kentucky that we care about all corners of the state. And so I just wonder, as you hear people saying all the things they're saying about Amendment 2: it will increase teacher pay, it will increase parent choice, all these things; what will the vast majority of Kentucky experience if Amendment 2 passes?

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:34:15] What we will see I think of it in kind of like three buckets. So you have your urban centers, which is where a lot of these private schools are. They stand to lose the most because it's an easy jaunt across town. Then you have the suburban schools that are around Lexington, Louisville and touch northern Kentucky who maybe their parents can get them to school down the road. But you ultimately have also the kids in rural Kentucky like us, whose county doesn't touch a major city and who doesn't have any other options. And all of those tax dollars that should be going there are now going to be pooled in areas like Lexington, Louisville, northern Kentucky. But they're going to be pulled in areas that are already funded because let me make sure we make this point, too, in the states that have done this, 70 percent of the school voucher that are accessed were accessed by people who have never attended a public school. And so these vouchers are not going to be enough to cover tuition.

[00:35:18] So I don't even know what tuition is, but let's say it's $10,000 to go to X school for a year. Well, the school vouchers are going to be 3 or 4000 probably, if you look at what other states are. And so if your family can't close that gap in finances, then you don't get a chance to go. To be quite honest with you, most families whose kids aren't already there can't afford that. And so it's truly about, in a way, a resegregation of schools by socioeconomic status. And it's cutting people out before they even get the opportunity to go. But even then, you guys, it's not a guaranteed better option. I mean, I think private schools serve a purpose and public schools serve a purpose, and I think they are two different systems. I don't think that one is better than the other. But it's this whole notion that we have to get tax dollars to go to private schools because they're better. These kids are trapped in failing schools. No, that's not the case. That's not how that works in most situations.

Sarah [00:36:27] Yeah, I think those statistics about it's basically just a tax credit for people who are already sending their kids to private schools. That's basically what it is.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:36:34] It is. That's exactly what it is.

Sarah [00:36:36] And it's not like even those private school teachers are getting big raises either. It's going to go to the administrators and the owners and all kinds of people that send money to Betsy DeVos and pay for her private school services. So, yeah, I mean, I'm hoping in particular because the language of the amendment is confusing and people don't understand it purposely-- I think that was by design. But I think that will hopefully go in the opposite direction because I think people are often more inclined to vote no on something they don't understand. But thank you for coming here and helping us understand it better.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:37:13] I appreciate it. I appreciate the opportunity. I do believe we're going to beat this amendment, but we're not going to beat it by enough to make me happy.

Sarah [00:37:20] Well, and it's not just here in Kentucky. I think you're exactly right, it's a nationwide campaign to privatize public schools.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:37:29] It sure is. And we're not going to let it happen in Kentucky.

Sarah [00:37:31] No, we're not.

Beth [00:37:34] Thank you so much, Lieutenant Governor.

Lt. Gov. Jacqueline Coleman [00:37:36] Thank you, guys.

[00:37:36] Music Interlude

Beth [00:37:44] In addition to talking to Lieutenant Governor Coleman who has legislative and educational expertise, we wanted to bring in someone who has a different type of expertise about this question. I'm thrilled to be sharing with you my conversation with a high school senior, Peter Jefferson. Peter, welcome to Pantsuit Politics. Will you just take a second and introduce yourself to our audience?

Peter Jefferson [00:38:07] Sure. So my name is Peter Jefferson. I am a senior in Fair County in Lexington, Kentucky. And I have the pleasure of serving on the Kentucky Student Voice Team. And I'm happy to join you.

Beth [00:38:22] Can you tell us a little bit about the Kentucky Student Voice team? This is, I think, a pretty unique organization. I'm really impressed with the work that you all do.

Peter Jefferson [00:38:30] Even myself, I look at the people around me in the student voice team and I'm incredibly impressed. So the Kentucky Student Voice Team is a Kentucky based nonprofit that seeks to co-create more just and democratic schools across Kentucky with an intergenerational approach. We have our adult partners who help advise us and help kind of smooth out the relationship between outside partners and our students. And then we're led by students. We have three teams within the student voice team that work on policy, research and storytelling to really advocate for student voice across Kentucky.

Beth [00:39:08] I was just taking a look at your website and seeing the position that Kentucky Student Voice Team has taken on a variety of bills in the legislature. And it's so interesting to see the diversity of bills that really do impact students. Can you think of anything from the last legislative session that would be a good way to highlight the work of this team?

Peter Jefferson [00:39:30] Yes. So I would say that the Crown Act is a really great example. For those, I guess outside of Kentucky, the Crown Act was a law that prohibits discrimination in schools based on hairstyle. Now, that may seem like a small thing, but traditionally students of color have been discriminated against based on hairstyle. And because of that, Kentucky was pushing to pass the Crown Act. Kentucky Student Voice Team students who are part of advocacy efforts with the Crown Act to try to keep it going through the legislature. We testified to committees and we went to the Capitol, and this was really almost, I hate to say, just another day of work, but was really an example of what the Kentucky Student Voice team can do when we set our mind to an issue.

Beth [00:40:20] And can you tell us how that resolved?

Peter Jefferson [00:40:22] The Crown Act was passed.

Beth [00:40:24] I think that's so exciting that it was passed. I think it's so exciting that students testified. Was there anything about that process that you found surprising or a takeaway that you think I'm going to apply this in future advocacy efforts?

Peter Jefferson [00:40:40] Yeah. So I think I was coming on as this work was going on, so I was aware of this and it served almost as the model for how I learned about how Kentucky Student Voice Team work. I was not testifying or able to do as much advocacy work. But I think the real lessons that we learned were that beyond statistics and reports and such, there are real stories at the heart of a lot of these issues. And the biggest strength the Kentucky Student Voice had is to tell those stories and create a platform where student voice is the most powerful role of advocacy.

Beth [00:41:16] Well, that is a perfect transition to talk about a very big educational issue on our ballots across Kentucky in November. We are voting on Amendment 2, which asks whether the General Assembly should be able to provide public funds to nonpublic schools. And I am so interested. I know the Kentucky Student Voice team has hosted forums about this, has really tried to have its finger on the pulse of how students feel about Amendment 2. And so I'm excited to hear whatever you can share with us about the discussion around this amendment.

Peter Jefferson [00:41:53] There's several aspects to this that I would note. The first of which is that as the Kentucky Student Voice Team, this is really our first foray into this kind of work. We had these discussions over the summer with our coordinators and really taking a step back and saying this is a big commitment for us. We're looking at dipping our toes into political advocacy, something that the Kentucky student voice team has never really pushed its way into before. So we had those discussions and overwhelmingly people thought this is something that is really important to us. We all have our own story about how public schools have bettered our lives or how the public school community has improved the way we learn or the way that we interact with the world. So within the Kentucky Student Voice Team, a lot of our discussion has kind of been around we're really grateful for what our public schools have done for us and what we continue to try to do for them.

[00:42:56] And we look at this amendment as kind of as a break of tradition almost, that public schools are how we build our state together. Outside the student voice team, there's a lot of movement beyond the students. We have one of the major Kentucky teacher unions has been quite active within the coalition that KSVT is a part of in activating teachers across the state and bringing together a lot of these teachers and superintendents and people who are on the other side of the table from us who are also saying this has been our whole life, this has been my job. This is really, really important to me that this is a part of Kentucky.

Beth [00:43:42] One of the things that concerns me about this amendment is that it doesn't tell us where the General Assembly would go next if it were empowered to provide public funds to private schools. We don't know what form that would take. What kind of conversations have you had about what this could lead to if it passed?

Peter Jefferson [00:44:00] That's a great question. One of the things that I've actually been looking at myself is what plans do legislators have for this? And it's pretty much like you said, there are almost no plans, no policy briefs. There's nothing out there that says this is our plan that's [inaudible]. So what we can kind of look at is surrounding states or really states across the US that have implemented voucher style or educational savings account programs. Those are several examples of how taxpayer funds have been used at other states to fund private schools. So we look around at the states like Arizona, Florida, Ohio and some others that have different systems of public funds and we haven't really found a lot of success in the surrounding states. We've looked at the expenditures and there have been some excellent reports that have been written within the Kentucky policy space that have concluded that there isn't much benefit for this kind of expenditure outside the public school system.

Beth [00:45:07] Yeah. I've noted that proponents of amendment, too, get really upset if they hear you call it a voucher amendment. They're always like, no, this doesn't say that. And I think, well, that's incumbent on you then to fill in the gaps. What is the plan here?

Peter Jefferson [00:45:21] I agree. I think we're calling it Dutchman because that's what it could be. The agency of our public schools will be taken away with this amendment. So we're going to be pretty clear about what this could be for Kentuckians.

Beth [00:45:35] So you said that students have talked about this amendment from a perspective of gratitude for the public school system. Can you share some of the stories that you've heard that you find particularly compelling?

Peter Jefferson [00:45:48] One of the stories that recently really moved me was a discussion about how students with disabilities would not be served by private schools. The story that I heard recently was about a private school and a public school that are beside each other at the elementary school level. And the school teacher and the students at the public school have a great resource center for students with disabilities. They have great staff there. They've been trained. They've dedicated their lives to this kind of work. And what they learned as they moved up in the grades, they became the big fifth grader in the building. So they started to learn how things worked. And as they recalled this, the students who are coming into that public school were both public school students and private school students because the private school next door didn't provide any resources for students who may have fallen behind in their reading or may have had physical disabilities that meant that they still had the right to an education, to the service that we are all provided, but they weren't getting it at the private school. And so it fell upon the public school teachers who had served hundreds and hundreds of students before them, to serve both the students who were part of the public school population but also the private school population. And that, while it may seem slightly innocuous, illustrates to me one of the more insidious points that [inaudible] too has, which is there is no mechanism to prevent discrimination, to require accountability for private schools that can receive these taxpayer funds.

Beth [00:47:35] Yeah, that's a fantastic example. Peter, you are a high school senior. I think you tell me you're speaking to me from your school's library.

Peter Jefferson [00:47:43] That's right.

Beth [00:47:43] I'm curious, as you think about the next chapter of your life, you're obviously a dedicated Kentuckian working hard on these issues. An impressive student, the kind of person that we would love to have stay in Kentucky. What would it say to you about our state if Amendment 2 passes?

Peter Jefferson [00:48:02] It's a little bit of a downer at first, but I think what it says to me if it passes is that we've entered a different realm of what we believe public education to be. We're one of four states that is a commonwealth; we're a state for the common good. Education is a common good service. It's something that we have that 90 percent of Kentuckians are educated by public schools. We all have these core experiences. These core learning moments that happen in the library or in the gym or the science classroom that make US Kentuckians and that equip us for the world. And I think if Amendment 2 passes, it means that there's a bit of a shift; that there is a shift away from that idea of public schools as a common good part of Kentucky and more as a service that we need to treat as something that goes up and down and that we need to pay for or punish based on how we perceive them.

Beth [00:49:05] I think that's beautifully said, and I really appreciate you spending time with me today.

Peter Jefferson [00:49:09] Thank you. I appreciate it, too.

[00:49:10] Music Interlude.

Sarah [00:49:20] Beth, this week I saw a clip from CBS Sunday Morning with Oscar winner Kathy Bates, where she is expressing regret that she did not thank her mother when she won her Oscar. And then the reporter comes on and says you did. And she kind of argues with him for a minute. And they play the clip of her thanking her mother. We put the video clip in the show notes. You have to go watch it. Her face is what is so powerful when she sees this because she had been telling herself for years that she had failed to thank her mother in one of the most important moments of her life. And her memory was wrong. It was just wrong. And it was so powerful.

Audio Clip: Kathy Bates [00:50:05] When I won the Oscar for Misery, she said, "I don't know what all the excitement about. You didn't discover the cure for cancer." I forgot to thank her that night.

Reporter [00:50:14] You know, you did thank her. At the end of your speech you thanked her.

Audio Clip: Kathy Bates [00:50:17] No, I did not. I did not. You go back and look at it. I didn't.

Peter Jefferson [00:50:21] We did go back and look. Let me show you.

Audio Clip: Kathy Bates [00:50:24] I want to thank my family, my friends, my mom at home, and my dad, who I hope is watching somewhere.

Reporter [00:50:37] What do you think?

Audio Clip: Kathy Bates [00:50:39] Thank you. Why did I think I didn't thank her? What a relief.

Peter Jefferson [00:50:48] Why does that mean so much to you?

Audio Clip: Kathy Bates [00:50:52] Because she should have had my life. When she died I said come into me. I wanted her spirit to come into me. Even though we had so many difficulties, I wanted her spirit to come into me and enjoy everything I was I was enjoying because of what she'd given up. Wow! Thank you so much for that.

Beth [00:51:22] I loved this clip. I'm so glad that you sent it to me. I can't even imagine the list of things that I remember wrong. It has to be pages and pages and pages. I don't feel like I have a great memory. There are many times, especially around my childhood, where someone will say, "We remember this," and I think I, not at all. Not at all do I remember that. Even things from 10 or 15 years ago, I don't keep things well, except for things that I keep in a really intense way. And I think even those things I misremember. It's more the story of it that I hang on to than the actual events.

Sarah [00:52:01] Yes, I am a person that lives very much in the present moment and I'm future oriented, so my memories are not great. I'm a pretty good memory keeper because I don't have a strong memory. I had my mouth taped shut by a teacher in second grade. I have no memory of it. My classmates do, but I don't. I have no memory of it. I do remember the shooting-- or at least I think I do. And I do remember the birth of my children and my wedding. But I've always been fascinated by this idea that people think they remember and they're so strongly confident that they know what happened and it's completely wrong. I mean, they did all these spotlight studies with September 11th because thank God these social psychological researchers were like this is our chance. Because this is a very impactful moment where people always go, I remember where I was. And they had people write out where you were, and they'll go back five years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, and the people will argue with them. That's not where I was. And they're like, here is your handwriting friend of where you were, and it is not what you remember. But I don't think that's trickled out. It's like people are still so confident in their memories, even though we know they're so incredibly flawed.

Beth [00:53:18] I think it's just really hard to grapple with that. I hate that feeling when someone says you remember this and I don't. Because I think, oh my gosh, what's going on inside me. Is my hardware messed up? What's happening in my brain that I can't recall this thing that this person who loves me and is telling me the truth can recall? This is a terrible feeling to not trust your own perception of things.

Sarah [00:53:43] I think it's a terrible feeling, but I think it is an important foundation. We just had that long conversation on More to Say about people's perception of problems and the Trump presidency. And I know we're supposed to be Outside of Politics, but I think it's relevant. I think this idea that we aren't perfect narrators. We don't understand everything. We don't understand our own memories. We get the most basic building block, our experiences in life, wrong. We misremember. I hate all those moments with Tim Walz and I think all the time that poor Brian Williams. People misremember, they create stories in their heads. It doesn't make you a liar or a bad person. That's just what happens. I'm not even mad about Donald Trump and the stupid helicopter story because I think that's a pretty normal thing to do. Lying is different, but misremembering I think happens to all of us way more than we want to admit to. And it doesn't have to be this thing that's scary, right? That's why I like this moment in particular, because it set her free. It set her free.

Beth [00:55:02] It struck me watching this video, Kathy Bates, that something her brain had held on to, her brain misremembered in a way that caused her to carry guilt. It was a shortcoming.

Sarah [00:55:14] Exactly.

Beth [00:55:15] And I wonder if that's consistent with a lot of things that she deals with. Like, is that a theme in her life? I wonder how many things that I do that, where I misremember something in a way that's most painful for me? I think some people misremember in ways that create heroic stories about themselves. What does that say about what's going on in their hardwiring? What does it mean to trust when we can't trust our own memories? Well, there's just a lot here.

Sarah [00:55:44] I know I do this as a mother. I know I have profound regrets and vivid memories of when I yelled when I shouldn't have. When I shamed when I shouldn't have. There's one moment even until we had this conversation [inaudible] and I thought, well, what if I'm misremembering? Amos doesn't remember this moment. I asked him about it, and he's like, I don't know what you're talking about. Maybe subconsciously that's why this clip spoke to me because I think there's probably some things as a mother that I tell myself I remember what happened and I was a terrible mother in that moment. But maybe I don't remember it correctly.

Beth [00:56:26] I think that I'm learning to trust my body more as I get older. As I think about events like what feeling does it conjure up for me physically? Like how do I actually experience and in my body is at least as trustworthy as the narrated story in my head about what's happened. And the other thing that this brings up for me is just thinking about my grandmother, who I was so close to, and how she just lost so much of her memory near the end of her life. Just in so many ways her memory was this key part of her personality and I wouldn't have known that until it was gone, but she still felt like her to me even though she was different. She was so different when she lost her memory. Her personality was different in a lot of ways. She couldn't tell the stories that she always told. She couldn't even recognize me for several years before she died. But her presence still felt really wonderful to me. And so I guess I'm just trying to look for how do you tap into that which is beyond the hard and software of our brains that we can trust and hold on to, no matter how correctly or incorrectly we've captured the stories for ourselves.

Sarah [00:57:53] Well, I always like taking this moment to examine those stories with you here on Pantsuit Politics and on our other shows. We love being in conversation with all of you. Thank you for joining us for another episode. We will be back in your ears on Tuesday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.

[00:58:11] Music Interlude.

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family. Ashley Rene. Michelle Palacios.

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.