I am so excited about Meander! I have a list of five books I think every human should read. The Book of Joy by Archbishop Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, What Happened to You? by Dr Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey, Being Mortal by Atul Gawande, The Powe of Showing Up by Drs Tina Payne Bryson and Dan Seigel, and Charlotte's Web by EB White.
Oof. My job was eliminated after being at the same company for nearly 22 years (one week shy) and I'm now navigating this job market. It's something else. I'm thankful for the decent severance and outplacement benefits I received, but with a kid who will be a senior next year and this economy, it's quite stressful. Sending good vibes out to anyone else working through this chaos!
Hope I am SO sorry to hear this! I am comforted knowing that you have severance and other benefits - that absolutely helps financially and is so important. But the emotional shock and distress of a job elimination after all that you have given to that company - so many years - is its own emotional load to carry. As a parent who has gone through a big job upheaval, one thing I can share is that your kiddo will learn from watching you... they will learn job search strategy, emotional resilience, and how to rebound. So as a parent there you are, being a great role model to your kid as you go through this yourself. I will be thinking of you!
One addition around negotiating is that there is a push in the nonprofit space to not do any negotiations of salary because it can lead to inequitable salaries and benefits. I think there are pros and cons for it- but it’s important that those new to the workforce understand when negotiations actually need to be off the table. I also want to reiterate the importance of ensuring folks know about the total compensation package….i have passed on higher salaries before because the compensation package was actually not an increase in salary due to lower benefits.
Yes!! Thank you for this! When I do negotiation consulting/teaching to younger folks, I talk a lot about total compensation, and Sarah and I chatted a bit about this during the episode. I shared how, in my current job, I negotiated for a housing benefit rather than salary increase, because I was trying to think about what would be best for my family rather than just Kim :). We must educate the youth about total compensation! Also: I am super interested to hear what you say about the push in non profits. I have 4 clients who landed entry level jobs at non profits in the past month, and they all negotiated a salary increase. So, at least for the current moment, I would still strongly urge folks landing non profit jobs to attempt to negotiate. One client got a signing bonus *and* a raise, and that was with the non profit Big Brothers. Another client got a raise with a local housing justice non profit. So it seems like there is still a bit of wiggle room out there in that sector.
That’s really interesting! I wonder if it’s more the education nonprofits. There was a move maybe 4ish years ago and now most posts read something like “starting salary is between this band and is non negotiable.” It can be frustrating for folks for sure.
Totally! You know what else I find so frustrating? When job ads dont include anything about salary or compensation. This is the most frustrating thing to talk about with my students, who are also like: "why???". I live in Massachusetts, and we have a fairly new state law that requires employers with over 15 employees to post the salary range, so that does help a bit. But I think that's just another layer of confusion (about the process) for young people who are so nervous/excited about finding their first real job.
This was an interesting episode for me. My older children are 25 and 22. The 25 year old graduated 3 years ago, was working in his field (journalism) but desperately wanted to move from where he was living to Philadelphia. He decided last fall to quit his job and take the leap. He knew he could live for 3 months on his savings and draw it down by a third. He told me that if he was in Philly, he knew he could meet people and network himself into a job. He did and just started working in development at Eastern University. It was stressful as a mom, but I’ll admit I did feel better when he told me he had to take a call from his retirement guy back in December. 😆
My 22 year old just got his masters in public policy and he is finding jobs thin on the ground even though he has a ton of contacts from various jobs and internships he’s had. He does have an offer on the table from the federal government, but I have to be honest and say that I discouraged him from taking it. I think in this environment with his personality, it would be soul killing. (It’s with Medicare/Medicaid). I think the only reason he applied is the fear of not having anything, even though he has no debt and could live with us until he finds something.
So sorry for dumping all that! I was really processing while I was listening. I don’t know that I would have done anything differently with my kids. I have one more to go and she wants to go into STEM.
Congrats on Meander! I’m very into the tiny indie bookstore or pop up lately.
Diana: You and I are aligned in so many ways! I love your post. It sounds like your kids are doing great - on really solid ground in terms of being very focused on their core values and how they relate to the work they want/hope to do, and your journalism son took a smart risk in making his move, he did everything right, and gosh it paid off! You must be so proud. Like your 22yo, my 24yo son also has a policy degree. He was unemployed for a year and living with us. After applying for hundreds of jobs, he finally found one and started this week. I will share that he also had a few offers - like your son - that he turned down because the job was in conflict with his personality and values. Now I am dumping! I relate to what you shared so acutely. I hope your younger son finds the right fit soon. I am hopeful!
Just wanted to give solidarity on the government gig. My husband just retired from 27 years active duty in the Coast Guard and is job hunting right now. He’s had his eye on a CG civilian job, but my big hang up about it is that working for this current administration is horrible. He was so miserable in his last year, I just hate to see him go right back to it, but as a civilian this time. Would it be a safe and easy option mentally? Yep. Would it feel good emotionally? Probably not. So I fully get your discouraging your son from government work.
Sarah! I'm so excited for you about Meander! In my small town of a little over 10,000, we have a citizen who opened a small pop-up bookshop and a local cafe. She has been successful enough that she just in May opened her own separate storefront. I think it can make all the difference to our town to have this beautiful well-curated independent bookstore, and I am positive that you will make the same difference for your citizens in Paducah.
Also, thank you for this episode!! As a former high school math teacher who is wrapping up her masters in project management degree shortly and hoping to career switch to working for a nonprofit she loves and believe in, this episode was very helpful!! Thank you for talking about it!!
In line with this episode, I still think often about Beth & Sarah’s conversation about moms having marketable skills and to never downplay our time at home 🤍 seems to dovetail from this conversation about having skills and not just knowledge, and that being what employers are looking for. Thanks for giving this momma hope and courage.
Brittany I love what you say here! Do you watch The Simpsons? There's this great episode called "The Springfield Connection" in Season 6 that reminds me of what you say here. Ok, bear with me! In the episode, Marge wants to join the Springfield police force. All the men doubt her abilities since she's been "just" a mom. So Marge proves that a lifetime of dealing with the chaos of raising a family DIRECTLY translates into law enforcement. It is spot on, and I bet you would love it if you are a Simpson's watcher!
So excited about your bookstore, Sarah! Congrats! My “always on the shelf” books would be A Rebellion of Care by David Gate, What Kind of Woman by Kate Baer, and The Dearly Beloved by Cara Wall.
Dearly Beloved ♥️♥️♥️. Would be an excellent tandem read with Wallace Stegner’s Crossing to Safety if you haven’t read that yet. They both hold such strong places in my book loving brain.
The main episode discussion felt "off" to me as someone who grew up in a blue collar family but ultimately became a white collar worker. Why? In my experience, the culture in blue collar communities views interpersonal relationships as relationships. Either you enjoy another person's company or you don't and avoid them! You don't think about how someone can help you. (But you sure as hell offer help, whether labor or money, when you have a relationship with someone who is struggling but not asking for help.)
Because of this background, it was *very* difficult for me to figure out how to navigate "networking." But, I have landed on what works for me. I do not have a wide network because that feels insincere to me. But my network is deep in that, the people I know, I *really* know, and they are typically like me: first-generation white collar workers. We find each other somehow.
All this is to say, if you know a young person with a blue collar upbringing, understand that they are navigating a foreign environment. None of this comes easy to them.
Kelsey, thank you for sharing this! What you say here, about networking, is exactly why Sarah and I talked about not loving that word. In my mind, relationships must be sincere and not transactional. Friends helping friends. Family helping family. When I teach my negotiation course to college students, typically about half of the class are first generation students who sign up so that they can try to level the playing field by gaining the knowledge about how to find and apply for jobs, and how to negotiate their starting package when the offer comes in!
Yep, I grew up in a working poor family until my parents' economic circumstances improved when I was in late high school/college. There is for sure a class component to this. I went to college (on full scholarship or I wouldn't have gone at all), with zero clue about the bigger picture of what college can do for you, beyond taking classes and a having a social life. I definitely did not understand "networking." I was repulsed by what I observed as obviously transactional schmoozing and thought networking wasn't for me. I realized after college that networking is just making friends and finding mentors, but I'm sure there were some opportunities I missed out on in college because I just didn't get it.
Ashley, I feel frustrated hearing that networking was taught to you as schmoozing. Ick. That's why Sarah and I talked about relationship building -- just as you describe here, it really is about making friends and finding mentors! And those people want to help you (or help each other). I have so many examples of peers-helping-peers with jobs and other opportunities. I try to avoid the "networking" word at all costs because of the ick associations with it.
I can tell you what I missed out on in college: internships and study abroad. I didn't understand working for free, and as an adult, I view the entire concept as incredibly classist. And, in my early 20s mind, why would I pay extra to learn and live abroad when I had a full tuition scholarship and a on-campus job at my university that I loved?!
I look back at those decisions and realized what I missed. But, it's okay. I found a way while getting paid for my work, and some day I'll have a study abroad-like experience when I'm retired.
Working for free is absolutely classist. It is a symptom of a broken system, and demonstrates (in my mind) absolutely unfair expectations. After I went to college, I was told that I would never get a job in my field until I did the unpaid internship thing. But I had to pay my rent - I did not have a family to help me. I always tell my students how I earned my income by folding panties at Victoria's Secret, while doing the unpaid internship that ultimately did lead to the first paid job in my field. But those first years were rough.
Oooh, anybody who had the funds to study abroad, I just envy them so much. I don't think I fit the mold of blue collar background exactly, but my parents never graduated college, and there were just things they couldn't understand. They saw study abroad as a waste of money, and since I had to spend summers earning the bulk of what I needed to pay for college, internships were off the table because none were local to me. In my field, internships are paid, but I would have had to pay for housing and such and may not have been able to save anything. My dad was convinced that interns just did janitorial work. I have no idea why he thought that.
I did land on my feet nevertheless.
There's a silly thing that happened to me long ago. My husband and I went to Rocky Mountain National Park. He and I were wearing caps that had the company logos of where I was currently working and where I had worked previously. We went into the ranger station to ask what hike would be good to help us adjust to the altitude. The docent who helped us was an older gentleman and he recognized the names of the companies I worked for. So he wanted to tell me all about his work in the computer field. As I'm now 60, I think about this often. He was basically telling me the story of how relevant he once was and now wasn't because his work was obsolete (like mine now is). He had done a post-doc at Stanford. And he asked me where I went to school. All this time I'd been trying to steer the conversation back to the park, but I finally felt the need to indulge him, so I told him I went to Iowa State University. His reply "Oh, then you're lucky to end up where you did." This story completely pisses me off, and I also think that guy is more correct than I want to admit. It was luck.
Kelsey: agree 100% I am a Madison gal myself. I have spent my career being "dissed" and dismissed by colleagues who went to Ivy League schools - and on several occasions Ive applied for jobs and been told that "nobody would even look at" my application because I went to a public university. But I am Wisconsin-proud (we even named our dog after Bucky Badger, the college mascot!).
Thank you for this. Also my experience. Fortunately I had good mentors and made connections in college that pushed me to network beyond my comfort zone and ultimately found a job that I love. I have been frustrated by my now underemployed nieces who did little but go to class in college. I said all along that going to class was not enough- but they too, first-gen college- didn’t understand the importance.
This was a great episode, however I will push back on one thing. Regarding negotiation of a contract. In industries like education, many roles have little room for negotiation. A contract is very black/white and transparent. If offered a teaching/admin job after multiple interviews and you say you need 48-hours to think about it, you risk the district saying “nevermind” and moving on to the next candidate. It happened in my district just a few weeks ago.
This is helpful feedback. I work in financial services, and there is more room to negotiate. However, even in cases where there is no ability to negotiate, it seems unfair that an employer will ask prospective employees to wait out their interview process (which can take weeks and months) and then penalize that same prospective employee if he or she wants a little time to decide. Sometimes it might be an easy "yes" with no need to ruminate, but I've found that choosing where to work is a big decision even without negotiating and would value not having to decide within 30 seconds of receiving an offer.
Mary - I agree! I have never heard of an employer pulling an offer because a candidate asked for 2 days to consider and reply. If I were working with that person, I would tell them that this is a serious red flag, and would advise them that they dodged a bullet in not working for that employer.
This. Fellow teacher here and I was laughing at the negotiating talk and thinking how nice it must be to be treated like a professional in these conversations with employers.
Agree. I work for the state government. There is no negotiating anything. It's a take-it-or-leave-it salary and benefits package that is public information.
I have had some clients who have negotiated a higher salary band (and other benefits, such as commuting/relocation costs) for their state government jobs. Like union jobs, those contracts are often trickier to approach when it comes to negotiation.
Limbo: Blue Collar Roots, White Collar Dreams by Alfred Lubrano is about 20 years old now, but it offers additional insight into why you may have felt this way. It's probably desperately in need of updating to include a discussion of intersectionality, but I still believe it is worth a read.
I stumbled onto the book over 15 years ago while browsing at the public library. I was a young lawyer working in a prestigious clerkship, and I was struggling feeling like I fit in. I loved the work, but I never felt comfortable unless I was with my then-fiance's law enforcement colleagues. Reading the book changed my life. I suddenly understood that I was operating on a different set of assumptions at work than my colleagues. I was just as smart and capable as my colleagues who grew up with parents who were lawyers, doctors, executives, etc. But, I didn't understand subtle social cues that my colleagues had learned from birth. I had to learn how to code-switch at work.
I say all of this with the caveat that I am *not* a first-generation college grad. My grandmother and mother were teachers. But, they were both married to blue collar men. A farmer/elected county official (grandfather) and a mechanic (father). We were not poor. We lived comfortably in rural America. But, our values were solidly blue collar. By marrying a law enforcement officer, I still consider myself part of that culture. I'm proud of my background, but I now know how to navigate more so-called "elite" spaces, too.
It took me approximately 5 seconds to follow Meander Bookshop on Instagram after I heard Sarah explain how she's choosing books to stock. A well curated place to find and buy books? Yes, please.
When I saw this episode pop up on my feed this morning, my stomach dropped. My husband is navigating this job market after graduating with a PhD in physics a year ago. A PhD in physics, which was supposed to be one of the safest degrees possible, isn’t enough to land even an interview in this market. I am watching this break him and it’s heartbreaking. We moved halfway across the country for my job and out here his network doesn’t exist and the job opportunities are few and far between. Remote positions don’t seem to want to hire someone early career and don’t understand that a PhD counts as experience. He doesn’t know how to make it more legible to employers that he’s an incredible critical thinker and problem solver and can teach himself just about anything. It’s fucking brutal.
Theodora, Oh shoot. This is very stressful! I'm sure your hubby is aware of the various "alt-ac" or "alternative academic" communities of support out there -- groups that are offering ideas to people with PhDs who are struggling to find work. Im happy to share resources with you if it would be helpful!
oooooh man I want to give you (and him) the tightest hug hearing this. I can feel the stress of this for both of you and I'm so sorry you're going through it. As Beth would say, virtual cobbler being sent your way
My husband is almost 60 and has worked part time for the last couple of years after his company prepared to sell off the American division and most in his department had their positions eliminated. He has applied for lots of different type positions (most in completely different fields from what he did), but he has only gotten a few interviews along the way and most of the times it is like his application goes into a big hole. We are older, I work full-time (and can add him to my benefits), and we are financially able to handle this, but it has been frustrating for sure! I feel this for those of you navigating it with your launching young adults!
And yay for you, Sarah! I remember the joy of shopping in Readmore Books while growing up in Paducah, just around the corner from the Arcade Theater before we went to movies there. I am sure it was long gone by the years you were growing up in Paducah, but it is fun to hear there is a new book shop in town. When I am in Paducah visiting friends, I will need to check it out🎉
I am so excited about Meander! I have a list of five books I think every human should read. The Book of Joy by Archbishop Desmond Tutu and the Dalai Lama, What Happened to You? by Dr Bruce Perry and Oprah Winfrey, Being Mortal by Atul Gawande, The Powe of Showing Up by Drs Tina Payne Bryson and Dan Seigel, and Charlotte's Web by EB White.
I recommend Being Mortal all the time. Love it so much!!
Oof. My job was eliminated after being at the same company for nearly 22 years (one week shy) and I'm now navigating this job market. It's something else. I'm thankful for the decent severance and outplacement benefits I received, but with a kid who will be a senior next year and this economy, it's quite stressful. Sending good vibes out to anyone else working through this chaos!
Hope I am SO sorry to hear this! I am comforted knowing that you have severance and other benefits - that absolutely helps financially and is so important. But the emotional shock and distress of a job elimination after all that you have given to that company - so many years - is its own emotional load to carry. As a parent who has gone through a big job upheaval, one thing I can share is that your kiddo will learn from watching you... they will learn job search strategy, emotional resilience, and how to rebound. So as a parent there you are, being a great role model to your kid as you go through this yourself. I will be thinking of you!
Can anyone tell me more about the book I think I heard Beth recommend? It was something like "Your Body: An Owner's Manual". Thank you!
It’s The Body: A Guide for Occupants by Bill Bryson
Thank you, Beth!
One addition around negotiating is that there is a push in the nonprofit space to not do any negotiations of salary because it can lead to inequitable salaries and benefits. I think there are pros and cons for it- but it’s important that those new to the workforce understand when negotiations actually need to be off the table. I also want to reiterate the importance of ensuring folks know about the total compensation package….i have passed on higher salaries before because the compensation package was actually not an increase in salary due to lower benefits.
Krysten,
Yes!! Thank you for this! When I do negotiation consulting/teaching to younger folks, I talk a lot about total compensation, and Sarah and I chatted a bit about this during the episode. I shared how, in my current job, I negotiated for a housing benefit rather than salary increase, because I was trying to think about what would be best for my family rather than just Kim :). We must educate the youth about total compensation! Also: I am super interested to hear what you say about the push in non profits. I have 4 clients who landed entry level jobs at non profits in the past month, and they all negotiated a salary increase. So, at least for the current moment, I would still strongly urge folks landing non profit jobs to attempt to negotiate. One client got a signing bonus *and* a raise, and that was with the non profit Big Brothers. Another client got a raise with a local housing justice non profit. So it seems like there is still a bit of wiggle room out there in that sector.
That’s really interesting! I wonder if it’s more the education nonprofits. There was a move maybe 4ish years ago and now most posts read something like “starting salary is between this band and is non negotiable.” It can be frustrating for folks for sure.
Totally! You know what else I find so frustrating? When job ads dont include anything about salary or compensation. This is the most frustrating thing to talk about with my students, who are also like: "why???". I live in Massachusetts, and we have a fairly new state law that requires employers with over 15 employees to post the salary range, so that does help a bit. But I think that's just another layer of confusion (about the process) for young people who are so nervous/excited about finding their first real job.
Sarah! Congrats! And I love how yall both acknowledged how good Beth is at keeping secrets. Your friendship always brings me such joy.
Go Sarah!!!! Excited about your new bookstore :)
This was an interesting episode for me. My older children are 25 and 22. The 25 year old graduated 3 years ago, was working in his field (journalism) but desperately wanted to move from where he was living to Philadelphia. He decided last fall to quit his job and take the leap. He knew he could live for 3 months on his savings and draw it down by a third. He told me that if he was in Philly, he knew he could meet people and network himself into a job. He did and just started working in development at Eastern University. It was stressful as a mom, but I’ll admit I did feel better when he told me he had to take a call from his retirement guy back in December. 😆
My 22 year old just got his masters in public policy and he is finding jobs thin on the ground even though he has a ton of contacts from various jobs and internships he’s had. He does have an offer on the table from the federal government, but I have to be honest and say that I discouraged him from taking it. I think in this environment with his personality, it would be soul killing. (It’s with Medicare/Medicaid). I think the only reason he applied is the fear of not having anything, even though he has no debt and could live with us until he finds something.
So sorry for dumping all that! I was really processing while I was listening. I don’t know that I would have done anything differently with my kids. I have one more to go and she wants to go into STEM.
Congrats on Meander! I’m very into the tiny indie bookstore or pop up lately.
Diana: You and I are aligned in so many ways! I love your post. It sounds like your kids are doing great - on really solid ground in terms of being very focused on their core values and how they relate to the work they want/hope to do, and your journalism son took a smart risk in making his move, he did everything right, and gosh it paid off! You must be so proud. Like your 22yo, my 24yo son also has a policy degree. He was unemployed for a year and living with us. After applying for hundreds of jobs, he finally found one and started this week. I will share that he also had a few offers - like your son - that he turned down because the job was in conflict with his personality and values. Now I am dumping! I relate to what you shared so acutely. I hope your younger son finds the right fit soon. I am hopeful!
Just wanted to give solidarity on the government gig. My husband just retired from 27 years active duty in the Coast Guard and is job hunting right now. He’s had his eye on a CG civilian job, but my big hang up about it is that working for this current administration is horrible. He was so miserable in his last year, I just hate to see him go right back to it, but as a civilian this time. Would it be a safe and easy option mentally? Yep. Would it feel good emotionally? Probably not. So I fully get your discouraging your son from government work.
Sarah! I'm so excited for you about Meander! In my small town of a little over 10,000, we have a citizen who opened a small pop-up bookshop and a local cafe. She has been successful enough that she just in May opened her own separate storefront. I think it can make all the difference to our town to have this beautiful well-curated independent bookstore, and I am positive that you will make the same difference for your citizens in Paducah.
Congratulations on Meander 📚Thats so exciting!!
Also, thank you for this episode!! As a former high school math teacher who is wrapping up her masters in project management degree shortly and hoping to career switch to working for a nonprofit she loves and believe in, this episode was very helpful!! Thank you for talking about it!!
In line with this episode, I still think often about Beth & Sarah’s conversation about moms having marketable skills and to never downplay our time at home 🤍 seems to dovetail from this conversation about having skills and not just knowledge, and that being what employers are looking for. Thanks for giving this momma hope and courage.
Brittany I love what you say here! Do you watch The Simpsons? There's this great episode called "The Springfield Connection" in Season 6 that reminds me of what you say here. Ok, bear with me! In the episode, Marge wants to join the Springfield police force. All the men doubt her abilities since she's been "just" a mom. So Marge proves that a lifetime of dealing with the chaos of raising a family DIRECTLY translates into law enforcement. It is spot on, and I bet you would love it if you are a Simpson's watcher!
Congratulations Sarah!!!!!! I’m so excited for you!!!!!
So excited about your bookstore, Sarah! Congrats! My “always on the shelf” books would be A Rebellion of Care by David Gate, What Kind of Woman by Kate Baer, and The Dearly Beloved by Cara Wall.
Dearly Beloved ♥️♥️♥️. Would be an excellent tandem read with Wallace Stegner’s Crossing to Safety if you haven’t read that yet. They both hold such strong places in my book loving brain.
I have not read it, but now I must! Thanks for the recommendation!
The main episode discussion felt "off" to me as someone who grew up in a blue collar family but ultimately became a white collar worker. Why? In my experience, the culture in blue collar communities views interpersonal relationships as relationships. Either you enjoy another person's company or you don't and avoid them! You don't think about how someone can help you. (But you sure as hell offer help, whether labor or money, when you have a relationship with someone who is struggling but not asking for help.)
Because of this background, it was *very* difficult for me to figure out how to navigate "networking." But, I have landed on what works for me. I do not have a wide network because that feels insincere to me. But my network is deep in that, the people I know, I *really* know, and they are typically like me: first-generation white collar workers. We find each other somehow.
All this is to say, if you know a young person with a blue collar upbringing, understand that they are navigating a foreign environment. None of this comes easy to them.
Kelsey, thank you for sharing this! What you say here, about networking, is exactly why Sarah and I talked about not loving that word. In my mind, relationships must be sincere and not transactional. Friends helping friends. Family helping family. When I teach my negotiation course to college students, typically about half of the class are first generation students who sign up so that they can try to level the playing field by gaining the knowledge about how to find and apply for jobs, and how to negotiate their starting package when the offer comes in!
Oh Kelsey, same here. I had no clue how anybody ended up with those cozy relationships with professors.
Yep, I grew up in a working poor family until my parents' economic circumstances improved when I was in late high school/college. There is for sure a class component to this. I went to college (on full scholarship or I wouldn't have gone at all), with zero clue about the bigger picture of what college can do for you, beyond taking classes and a having a social life. I definitely did not understand "networking." I was repulsed by what I observed as obviously transactional schmoozing and thought networking wasn't for me. I realized after college that networking is just making friends and finding mentors, but I'm sure there were some opportunities I missed out on in college because I just didn't get it.
Ashley, I feel frustrated hearing that networking was taught to you as schmoozing. Ick. That's why Sarah and I talked about relationship building -- just as you describe here, it really is about making friends and finding mentors! And those people want to help you (or help each other). I have so many examples of peers-helping-peers with jobs and other opportunities. I try to avoid the "networking" word at all costs because of the ick associations with it.
I can tell you what I missed out on in college: internships and study abroad. I didn't understand working for free, and as an adult, I view the entire concept as incredibly classist. And, in my early 20s mind, why would I pay extra to learn and live abroad when I had a full tuition scholarship and a on-campus job at my university that I loved?!
I look back at those decisions and realized what I missed. But, it's okay. I found a way while getting paid for my work, and some day I'll have a study abroad-like experience when I'm retired.
Working for free is absolutely classist. It is a symptom of a broken system, and demonstrates (in my mind) absolutely unfair expectations. After I went to college, I was told that I would never get a job in my field until I did the unpaid internship thing. But I had to pay my rent - I did not have a family to help me. I always tell my students how I earned my income by folding panties at Victoria's Secret, while doing the unpaid internship that ultimately did lead to the first paid job in my field. But those first years were rough.
Oooh, anybody who had the funds to study abroad, I just envy them so much. I don't think I fit the mold of blue collar background exactly, but my parents never graduated college, and there were just things they couldn't understand. They saw study abroad as a waste of money, and since I had to spend summers earning the bulk of what I needed to pay for college, internships were off the table because none were local to me. In my field, internships are paid, but I would have had to pay for housing and such and may not have been able to save anything. My dad was convinced that interns just did janitorial work. I have no idea why he thought that.
I did land on my feet nevertheless.
There's a silly thing that happened to me long ago. My husband and I went to Rocky Mountain National Park. He and I were wearing caps that had the company logos of where I was currently working and where I had worked previously. We went into the ranger station to ask what hike would be good to help us adjust to the altitude. The docent who helped us was an older gentleman and he recognized the names of the companies I worked for. So he wanted to tell me all about his work in the computer field. As I'm now 60, I think about this often. He was basically telling me the story of how relevant he once was and now wasn't because his work was obsolete (like mine now is). He had done a post-doc at Stanford. And he asked me where I went to school. All this time I'd been trying to steer the conversation back to the park, but I finally felt the need to indulge him, so I told him I went to Iowa State University. His reply "Oh, then you're lucky to end up where you did." This story completely pisses me off, and I also think that guy is more correct than I want to admit. It was luck.
I *loathe* the bias against public colleges and universities in the Midwest. Iowa State is a fantastic school funded by Iowans for Iowans.
Kelsey: agree 100% I am a Madison gal myself. I have spent my career being "dissed" and dismissed by colleagues who went to Ivy League schools - and on several occasions Ive applied for jobs and been told that "nobody would even look at" my application because I went to a public university. But I am Wisconsin-proud (we even named our dog after Bucky Badger, the college mascot!).
Thank you for this. Also my experience. Fortunately I had good mentors and made connections in college that pushed me to network beyond my comfort zone and ultimately found a job that I love. I have been frustrated by my now underemployed nieces who did little but go to class in college. I said all along that going to class was not enough- but they too, first-gen college- didn’t understand the importance.
This was a great episode, however I will push back on one thing. Regarding negotiation of a contract. In industries like education, many roles have little room for negotiation. A contract is very black/white and transparent. If offered a teaching/admin job after multiple interviews and you say you need 48-hours to think about it, you risk the district saying “nevermind” and moving on to the next candidate. It happened in my district just a few weeks ago.
This is helpful feedback. I work in financial services, and there is more room to negotiate. However, even in cases where there is no ability to negotiate, it seems unfair that an employer will ask prospective employees to wait out their interview process (which can take weeks and months) and then penalize that same prospective employee if he or she wants a little time to decide. Sometimes it might be an easy "yes" with no need to ruminate, but I've found that choosing where to work is a big decision even without negotiating and would value not having to decide within 30 seconds of receiving an offer.
Mary - I agree! I have never heard of an employer pulling an offer because a candidate asked for 2 days to consider and reply. If I were working with that person, I would tell them that this is a serious red flag, and would advise them that they dodged a bullet in not working for that employer.
This. Fellow teacher here and I was laughing at the negotiating talk and thinking how nice it must be to be treated like a professional in these conversations with employers.
Agree. I work for the state government. There is no negotiating anything. It's a take-it-or-leave-it salary and benefits package that is public information.
I have had some clients who have negotiated a higher salary band (and other benefits, such as commuting/relocation costs) for their state government jobs. Like union jobs, those contracts are often trickier to approach when it comes to negotiation.
Kelsey, you have given me words for my exact experience
Limbo: Blue Collar Roots, White Collar Dreams by Alfred Lubrano is about 20 years old now, but it offers additional insight into why you may have felt this way. It's probably desperately in need of updating to include a discussion of intersectionality, but I still believe it is worth a read.
I stumbled onto the book over 15 years ago while browsing at the public library. I was a young lawyer working in a prestigious clerkship, and I was struggling feeling like I fit in. I loved the work, but I never felt comfortable unless I was with my then-fiance's law enforcement colleagues. Reading the book changed my life. I suddenly understood that I was operating on a different set of assumptions at work than my colleagues. I was just as smart and capable as my colleagues who grew up with parents who were lawyers, doctors, executives, etc. But, I didn't understand subtle social cues that my colleagues had learned from birth. I had to learn how to code-switch at work.
I say all of this with the caveat that I am *not* a first-generation college grad. My grandmother and mother were teachers. But, they were both married to blue collar men. A farmer/elected county official (grandfather) and a mechanic (father). We were not poor. We lived comfortably in rural America. But, our values were solidly blue collar. By marrying a law enforcement officer, I still consider myself part of that culture. I'm proud of my background, but I now know how to navigate more so-called "elite" spaces, too.
It took me approximately 5 seconds to follow Meander Bookshop on Instagram after I heard Sarah explain how she's choosing books to stock. A well curated place to find and buy books? Yes, please.
Same 😂
When I saw this episode pop up on my feed this morning, my stomach dropped. My husband is navigating this job market after graduating with a PhD in physics a year ago. A PhD in physics, which was supposed to be one of the safest degrees possible, isn’t enough to land even an interview in this market. I am watching this break him and it’s heartbreaking. We moved halfway across the country for my job and out here his network doesn’t exist and the job opportunities are few and far between. Remote positions don’t seem to want to hire someone early career and don’t understand that a PhD counts as experience. He doesn’t know how to make it more legible to employers that he’s an incredible critical thinker and problem solver and can teach himself just about anything. It’s fucking brutal.
Theodora, Oh shoot. This is very stressful! I'm sure your hubby is aware of the various "alt-ac" or "alternative academic" communities of support out there -- groups that are offering ideas to people with PhDs who are struggling to find work. Im happy to share resources with you if it would be helpful!
oooooh man I want to give you (and him) the tightest hug hearing this. I can feel the stress of this for both of you and I'm so sorry you're going through it. As Beth would say, virtual cobbler being sent your way
Congratulations Sarah!!
My husband is almost 60 and has worked part time for the last couple of years after his company prepared to sell off the American division and most in his department had their positions eliminated. He has applied for lots of different type positions (most in completely different fields from what he did), but he has only gotten a few interviews along the way and most of the times it is like his application goes into a big hole. We are older, I work full-time (and can add him to my benefits), and we are financially able to handle this, but it has been frustrating for sure! I feel this for those of you navigating it with your launching young adults!
And yay for you, Sarah! I remember the joy of shopping in Readmore Books while growing up in Paducah, just around the corner from the Arcade Theater before we went to movies there. I am sure it was long gone by the years you were growing up in Paducah, but it is fun to hear there is a new book shop in town. When I am in Paducah visiting friends, I will need to check it out🎉