There’s a theme in today’s episode of holding the breath, which is something I’ve been doing about unrest and possible US military action in Iran. Sarah and I discuss reporting that the administration seems increasingly likely to take what they term “kinetic” action (and what Reps. Ro Khanna and Thomas Massie and Senators Tim Kaine and Rand Paul would call acts of war).
Then there’s the way that our guest and friend Natalia Terfa describes holding her breath in Minneapolis. Even as Operation Metro Surge “winds down,” there are still agents and agitators. There is still fear and tension. There is damage left to repair after “it’s over,” and a sense that it’s not really over yet. We’re grateful to Natalia for her leadership on the ground and her willingness to discuss it with us today.
We often talk about outside of politics as an exhale, and we hope it is today. We talk about our very-non-sports-y Winter Olympics takes, with a special shout out to all of you who participated in the Spice Cabinet Opening Ceremonies.
If you’ve listened for a long time, you know that I love yoga. One of my favorite parts of a yoga class is taking a collective breath. It reminds me that we’re here. We’re alive, right now, and that’s its own form of miracle. It reminds me that we’re not alone. I hope this episode gives you that sense, too. -Beth
Topics Discussed
Unrest in Iran and Potential Military Action
On the Ground in Minneapolis with Natalia Terfa
Outside of Politics: The Winter Olympics
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Episode Resources
The Iran war powers resolution (Congress)
Episode Transcript
Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:10] This is Beth Silvers. You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. Today we’re going to talk about the increasing intensity happening with respect to Iran and the United States government. Then we are going to have a conversation much closer to home with Natalia Terfa, who has been on the ground in Minneapolis organizing, observing, providing pastoral care to people. She’s going to take us through what this experience has been like and what it continues to be like. As Operation Metro Surge ramps down but is far from over. And Outside of Politics, we’re going to take an exhale ourselves with the Winter Olympics. They’re wrapping up. We have absorbed a little bit of the controversy, a little of the sports. So we’re going to chat about our observations coming out of these games.
Sarah [00:00:55] Here is talk with Natalia about our upcoming visit to Minneapolis at the end of August. We’re going to do our only live show of the year on Saturday, August 29th. Premium members have already had access to tickets to the Spice Conference surrounding that live event, but tickets to the public will go on sale probably in early March. So keep an eye out for that and save the date to come see us live on Saturday August 29th.
Beth [00:01:19] Next up, we are bracing ourselves with every headline we read about Iran. We’ll talk about it. Sarah, I have had this strategy of trying to just not speak too much out loud about Iran for about a month. I have been distraught for the protesters there and the mass violence being carried out by the Iranian regime against the Iranian people. I have been worried about the expectations that President Trump’s social media posts have created in those protesters. And I have been at the same time worried that our government has been building up a military presence that looks like preparation for war there. But I have hoped that my worries were all misplaced and that the situation would turn out to be, at least as to US military action in Iran, less dangerous than it feels to me. But that is not what the reporting looks like as we record on Thursday morning.
Sarah [00:02:27] No, the buildup is pretty significant. I know you saw reporting that a senior Trump official said that the chance of kinetic action (our new favorite word) is at like 90%. They’ve set a bar that as far as like no nuclear enrichment at all that Iran I don’t think we’ll agree to. Also, the negotiators that Iran are sending are way more experienced than Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner in particular in this waiting out. And that will also be the strategy if and when we begin to engage in military action with Iran. There’s a lot of reporting right now that we’re at the 40 day mark so that under Iranian tradition, they celebrate the lives of the people who were lost at 40 days. And so that’s like all over the country right now because of all the young people that were lost during these protests. But a regime that will sacrifice that many lives, what won’t they sacrifice during military action? Like they’re just going to wait it out. Now, I’m not saying that the Iranian regime is not significantly weakened at this point. Of course it is. But the ability to just-- it’s like Russia-- lay lives and everything on the altar of sustaining their power is pretty significant. I mean, they don’t have a lot to lose. You know what I mean? They don’t care about their people. They’ve lost so many other partners in the region or allies in the regional that could maybe hold back or prevent escalation. I don’t really see that as a factor right now. I think it’s just there. It’s going to be ugly and it could be ugly for a really long time.
Beth [00:04:31] I think it’s hard on the US side to have much credibility in negotiating about anything in the world when we have shown a real lack of commitment to what’s been done by other administrations and even day to day within this administration. The handling of the tariffs, the approach to the United Nations, the Board of Peace is meeting today on Thursday as we’re recording without a lot of our traditional allies because they’re fearful that the Board of Peace is going to become a rival to the United Nations. There are many ways in which I think we have weakened our own hand at the negotiating table. Not the least of which is that Steve Wittkopf and Jared Kushner are right in the middle of this as they are also negotiating in Ukraine. The State Department has been hollowed out in terms of experienced personnel, the people who really know these countries and their customs and the long-term players behind the principles. It’s a bad, bad situation. Politically, I don’t know what American interests this serves. I don’t think that the administration can simultaneously make the case that our military so outmatches Iran, this will be no big deal. And also that Iran is such a threat that it’s necessary to jeopardize military personnel’s lives, not just in that action, whatever it may be, but also throughout the region at American bases. I don’t know what the argument is to the public to support war here.
Sarah [00:06:09] They don’t make many arguments to the public.
Beth [00:06:11] Yeah, because they don’t care about the public matter. [crosstalk] That’s right.
Sarah [00:06:15] To me, this administration’s just continued rejection of any sort of democratic process or feedback. Like, again, we’re just at the whims of Donald Trump. And if he wants to do it, he’s going to do it. I don’t know what argument he’s making to himself or the others around him are making as far as his like-- I can imagine the argument that Benjamin Netanyahu is making to Donald Trump in advance of this action or in argument for this action. But do I think the American people who are so frustrated at the downward spiral of the reality of life here in America with regards to health insurance, which they’re undercutting, they published a federal rule to further undercut Obamacare and kick more people off Obamacare as far as affordable housing. I read a great piece about he was going to give us the DOGE bonuses, then we were going to get the tariff checks. None of which have materialized. So the prices are still high. They’re going to get higher because so many companies have said they’re not going to shoulder the cost anymore and the New Year’s a time to raise price anyway. You have AI rolling around the country and these huge data centers that are driving up energy costs and freaking people out as far as job prospects, much less their role in education. You have a big old trial about the addictive nature of social media in our children. It is bold. It is a bold move to just continue to take military action no one wants and slap your name on everything when people are this frustrated and discontent.
Beth [00:08:24] I heard terrific reporting from ABC News this morning on their podcast, Start Here, about data centers. And a woman who lives near one in Chicago, in a Chicago suburb, said that there are times when that data center’s generators take over and it sounds like a helicopter is landing on her roof. It’s so loud. It’s a nuisance. It is also driven up her electricity by about 22%, I think she said. Like it is a lot. There was a man interviewed in Wisconsin about a data center going in. And there’s going to be a power line built on his property to supply that data center. And he was told that if he doesn’t agree, they will use eminent domain to build that power line to the data cente. This is going to get really bad, really fast. And I do think this administration is on the wrong side of it, six ways to Sunday. The other thing specific that jumped out at me this morning in that line of a frustration that you were describing is that in the meta trial, the judge had to take a moment to tell people that if they were wearing glasses that could record or analyze jurors faces, they would be held in contempt of court. Like the meta glasses that may have been worn by someone in Zuckerberg’s entourage were such an issue that the judge had to have a real moment, like a come to Jesus moment about how inappropriate that is in a trial. Like we are facing so many matters of incredible significance to who we are and how we live. A war in Iran does not serve anyone. Fortunately, I think we have a real call to action on this one because we have two bipartisan duos in the House and the Senate, trying to reassert Congress’s power as the only entity in our government that is supposed to legally declare war. So Ro Khanna and Thomas Massey, I’m here for this dynamic duo. There at it again.
Sarah [00:10:20] I’m into it.
Beth [00:10:21] They plan to force a House floor vote next week on an Iran War Powers Resolution. And then Tim Kaine, who has long been interested in reclaiming Congress’s power here.
Sarah [00:10:31] Because there’s children in the military!
Beth [00:10:35] Yes. And Rand Paul, so two Kentuckians also in the mix here, have an Iran War Powers Resolution ready for consideration in the Senate. So support those folks in that effort, reach out to your representatives and tell them that you don’t want this if you agree with us about this topic. I would just hate to see another war. I have such war fatigue right now. I think the situation in the Middle East is so precarious. I cannot imagine what good might come from this. I can’t imagine. In that long list you made, Sarah, of reasons Americans are frustrated, we didn’t even get to ice and border patrol occupying American cities.
Sarah [00:11:12] Which showed up in my town this week. So the fact that I couldn’t even squeeze it in the list is a real red flag.
Beth [00:11:18] That’s right. And it does feel to me like media on a national scale has moved on awfully fast from Minneapolis when we know that there are still more than a thousand agents there and there will be ramifications of what the federal government did in Minneapolis for many years to come. So we wanted to invite Natalia Terfa on to talk with us today. You’ve heard Natalia’s voice before. We played a message from her about what she saw on the streets in Minneapolis where she is a pastor. She’s going to spend more time with us today telling us about that experience, what the state of things looks like right now, and what she thinks is going to be required to rebuild on the other side of this. So that’s up next.
Sarah [00:12:08] Talia, thank you for coming back on Pantsuit Politics.
Natalia Terfa [00:12:11] Thanks for inviting me. I feel I’m trying really hard not to be excited because I just love you guys. And I’m so grateful for all that you do in the world and all that put out into the world.
Beth [00:12:20] It’s mutual.
Sarah [00:12:21] Thank you. It’s Mutual for sure. And so much of our audience is in the Minneapolis St. Paul area. I think that’s why the voice recording we shared of yours a few weeks ago is so important. And we’ve really felt like the media coverage-- I feel like Holman showed up and everybody was like, okay, he did something moving on. But what we were hearing from all of y’all is nothing’s really changed. Maybe we don’t have like all the eyes of the nation, but the day-to-day has not changed. Now, since they’ve said, like, Operation Metro Surge is over, I’m sure it’ll take a while to dial it down and remove the agents, but there’s still a lot left there. I kind of want to start at the beginning. What did you first notice when things started to change, when the operation kicked in? Did you know the operation was happening before you noticed any changes showing up in your day-to-day life? What was it like in the beginning.
Natalia Terfa [00:13:19] I think we really noticed it in December, and partly I think that’s because there were a lot of us who recognized that in churches that primarily worked with immigrant community members, that it was known among our community that there was going to be an intensification of raids on churches during the holiday season. And so there was sort of this uptick in clergy colleagues and neighbors recognizing like, this is not okay, what can we do? That’s sort of when it started. I think the recognition of something is different and we need to do something. We need to be around, we need watch, we need help, we to show up. So I think that’s when more people started paying attention, at least in my direct circles, because I’m a clergy person and I have other clergy colleagues that work with immigrant communities. That’s when it felt pretty noticeable. I do think there was another uptick after Renee Goode was killed, but my network of clergy colleagues was already kind of cranking. I was on the phone with somebody when another clergy colleague was like I’m hearing reports that someone was killed on Portland and 36th. And she’s like I’m going there now. I’ll let you know if you should come. And 20 minutes later, she’s, like, get over here if you can. And so there was a group of us, clergy, that showed up at that corner pretty fast on the 7th. So I just think that was some of the shift, like the level of intensity. We knew it was happening and we knew they were around and we know they were targeting specific communities between Christmas and the 7. It was really obvious from the 7 on because it was like-- they I don’t know how to say this in another way, but it was like they were untethered. It just felt like they got like, we did it once, now we’re like... It just felt like there was a level of now we don’t care, and they just went. It wasn’t like it wasn’t bad before then, but that was just an uptick. And I think the more people watched, the worse they got. It was like the more observed, the more aggressive and they just got more and more aggressive.
[00:15:49] And so they would show up in bigger groups and do-- even one of the times after I left that recording for you, I was on patrol in my neighborhood and a whole bunch of them split a whole bunch of us up. They just drove right in between us and then turned sideways on the road on a main road in my neighborhood. All traffic stopped and they all got out of their vehicles and they took one of our observers. Like they just took him out of his car. We all watched it happen and it was so awful and so traumatic for all of us neighbors. And that was just a big shift for me personally. I mean observing and watching I think from the seventh on you could stand on the corner of my neighborhood on a main strip five minutes and an ICE vehicle would drive by. Like that’s how often they were. They were just around. And there’s stats pages all over that we share with each other and they show where things are happening and where reports are being made. And my neighborhood’s the fourth most active neighborhood in Maine, so it’s not even the worst one. And it’s pretty dang active. The neighborhood got really good at following and whistling and honking and so they couldn’t do it in secret. They were always being observed and their aggression rose as they were being observed. I think there was a lot of times where I was like come at me. I mean, there was little bit of it where it was like the optics are bad guys. Like if you take me out of my car I usually wear my collar when I patrol because I feel like-- it’s not a bulletproof vest. I understand, but I wear my clergy stuff because I do think it makes them stop sometimes for a second. You’re messing with me. You’re not messing with a community member that’s more vulnerable than I am. So I’m like waste your time on me. I got nothing but time for you.
Sarah [00:17:45] So what was the, like, organizational and training effort when you knew they were coming, before you knew they were coming. I’m just trying to think about this. Like we officially have had ICE show up in our courthouse here in Paducah. I know Minneapolis had such a foundational organizational community that I’m like I don’t know how you replicate that somewhere else, and what the trainings were like, how you get them off the ground so quickly. Like, what advice do you give to other communities about this? And what did it look like on the ground as it was ratcheting up?
Natalia Terfa [00:18:21] I want to say, I don’t want people to hear when the news or when people say like we had this already built in after 2020. That means you’re five years behind or six years behind and you have no hope of organizing. That’s not true. So I don t want people think that’s what I’m saying. But I live in the neighborhood of the third precinct in Minneapolis that burned down after George Floyd was killed. The police left that precinct and our neighbors, my immediate neighbors organized block patrols because-- so like my spouse was one of them. They would stand over nights on the end of our blocks and watch just to make sure we were safe. They were patrolling the blocks and that’s how it started in 2020.
Sarah [00:19:06] Wow.
Natalia Terfa [00:19:06] And communities were coming around and cleaning up the mess and all these beautiful things, showing up for neighbors, showing up for people, helping people get food, all of these things that were built in after 2020. I think in this neighborhood, I live in a pretty, pretty middle-class white neighborhood of Minneapolis, progressive. And I would say that for a lot of my neighbors in 2020 was the first time that people realized they’re not going to save us. We have to do this ourselves. That was the time for a lot of people. The police did not help us. They had left. They left the precinct. They left our neighborhood. And so we were taking care of each other and we were taking care of ourselves. And I think that foundation was there and it really matters. And that foundation was there for communities of color, I want to just say it, like well before that idea where you need to take care of ourselves and save ourselves because no one else will was there for other communities well before the white people caught on. That’s what I would say. The middle class white folks caught on. But I would for my very typical Pantsuit Politics listener neighborhood, that was the first time we were like, oh, we got to do this ourselves. And learned from communities of color that had been organizing and doing it for many years. So that was ready to go in a lot of ways when ICE really kicked up. But some of those were just-- I mean, for me, I didn’t get the training I was supposed to get, I think. I just jumped in somewhere and then they added me to another list and another list and another one. And part of that was because, as a pastor, I had had some de-escalation training. I had done some non-violent resistance training. I had some of those things that just got me added into other groups.
[00:21:05] But I started, the first thing I did in December was show up at a mosque at tea time because another pastor nearby asked me to. And we just showed up in solidarity. This is right when the Trump administration really said all of their horrible things about the Somali community. They were really worried about ICE showing up at prayer time. And so we definitely said yes and showed up for these things and did what we needed to do. And then somebody in that group was like, hey, are you in this group? And I said, no. And they’re like, let me add you. And that just snowballed. So now if you go to my signal chats, I think I was in two before December and now I’m like 50. I don’t know. There’s so many, just so many. And then you have to narrow it down to the ones that match what you want to do. So, for me, neighborhood patrol felt like a thing I could do. I could drive around my neighborhood. I know the neighborhood well. I could be present as a clergy presence before, during, after raids and try to care for people. So one of the groups I’m in we call it the aftercare group. Goal is to stick around after the ICE agents leave, and commuters might chase them out of the neighborhood still, but I stick around and talk to the people who watched it happen because it’s really, really traumatic. It’s really traumatic to watch them shatter a window and drag somebody out of their car. And you feel the adrenaline, your fingers are tingly, you’re shaky, people are chattering. It’s hard to watch. It is hard to see. And try to help people process and talk is part of what I’ve signed up to do as well. So I think it matters to have clergy people doing that piece too. And it was easy for me to do.
Beth [00:23:03] Natalia, I would love for you to take us to today and tell us what things look and feel like. I read this morning that there was a fire at the memorial for Renee Goode that is suspected to be arson. So I can imagine that it’s still just heightened emotions and tense and I read that people are still nervous about leaving their home. So tell us what it feels like as we’re recording on Thursday, February 19th.
Natalia Terfa [00:23:29] I think you can feel the breath holding has not released yet. I think it’s like we all know. I mean, we joke about this as Minnesotans when they were like we’re going to leave. And everybody’s like, okay, we’ll believe it when we see it. Like that was kind of the standard response for most of us. And we joked about false spring here. Like we had a couple of days of 50 degrees, which was incredible. And everybody runs around like baby sheep on a new spring day, but it snowed six inches last night. So it’s like we all know what the up and down of this feels like. And so nobody really trusted it. And it feels like it was built into our system based on how winter and spring shows up here. So I feel like we were all like, yeah, we know. I will say there are less actions it feels like, but nobody trusts it. So the ICE is still around. I would say we’ve still had them around. There are agitators that follow ICE into town that are just right-wing people that come and record and come to observers, especially around preschools and schools and yell stuff at them. It’s really awful. And so, there’s a sense of like stuff is still happening and we don’t want to let our guard down yet. And so that like bracing for impact sort of tension is still really present. And everybody’s still pretty tense. The fire I know it’s suspected arson, but it was arson. Like you don’t douse a fence in gasoline and light it on fire just for funsies. So for sure arson. And if you go over to those memorial sites, it takes just a special kind of horrible person to try to burn it down. It’s a memorial site. It just felt there are still hateful people running around trying to undo all this beauty and goodness that is our neighborhoods. There is still this beauty and goodness. The school patrols are still full on. So I think one of the more beautiful ways-- if you want to patrol, you can see ICE. But you can also just drive around a neighborhood at drop off or pick up time and see people standing outside in yellow vests, watching the schools and making sure everybody’s okay. And that’s so beautiful and it’s incredible to watch. And if a school is like we’re short on patrollers today, 10 people will be like, I got it. And they’ll just show up.
[00:26:12] There’s a Spanish immersion daycare two blocks from my house that put out a call, we don’t have any observers this afternoon. And six of us showed up in 10 minutes. And it was just like we’re just here neighbors being like absolutely yes, I’ll show up. And just waiting to be asked and waiting to step in. And grocery deliveries are still happening and people are still getting rides to appointments and because the tension or the fear that they are hiding, that they’re still here, that they waiting is not gone yet. It’s still pretty tense. And I would say we have reports of ICE that is in town. As we learn, they learn. And so they are dressing in more plain clothes and they’re trying to show up differently. I think Peggy Flanagan told a story of some ICE agents carrying groceries to somebody’s house and pretending to be delivering so they would open the door. And then there’s video of two agents in plain clothes pretending that their car was broken down outside of somebody’s home and when he came out to help them a bunch of other cars pull up and grab this guy. So they’re getting sneakier and those videos do come out, which is good that people are observing. This is why observing matters is because then we can see it happen and we know it’s happening, but that scares people too. They’re still scared. So I think it’s a both and. We feel like there has been some let up. I mean, going from 2,800 or 3,000 agents to 800 or a thousand is better. That’s better, but 1000 agents can still do some damage and they still are. I think they’re moving into the suburbs more, they’re moving out of the city proper more because the organizing in the city is so good. I read something that my neighborhood is a two minute response time, which I was like, that’s so awesome. I’m so proud of that. And so if they can’t get in and out in two minutes, they don’t do it. And that’s great. Like that’s great. That also means they’ll go to places that are further spread apart where two minutes response time is not possible.
Beth [00:28:29] Can I ask you to go back and say more about did I hear you correctly that there’s sort of an entourage of people with ICE just there to harass people they think might be immigrants? Can you talk more about that?
Natalia Terfa [00:28:45] We call them right-wing agitators. They might be local, I don’t know, but like Jake Lang is one of them. He’s been around a ton in town. There’s this other guy, I don’t remember his name. He drives a blue car. Like we all know what his car looks like because he shows up in this blue car and he yells at... Particularly on one stretch of my neighborhood, there’s two Spanish immersion preschools within a couple blocks of each other. And he likes to be over there yelling at the observers. That keeps us. Even if ICE might not be around, like these other dudes are around. And it does feel like it scares kids, it scares parents, it scares the daycare workers. It’s scary for the observers too, of course. So it just keeps everybody at a higher tension. And so we say, like, we don’t engage with our rule as a commuter or observers. You don’t engaged with, we don’t follow them. We don’t chase them around. We might follow ICE to make sure they leave or to see what they’re doing, but we don’t do that for agitators because they seem--.
Sarah [00:29:50] That’s what they want. They want content.
Natalia Terfa [00:29:52] Yeah. And that seems more dangerous for an observer than ICE. Like even though it is pretty dangerous to observe ICE, honestly, at this point. But it does feel like they’re more of a question mark. We just don’t know how they’re going to act or react. But yeah, some of the characteristics of ICE are the same with these agitators. They drive recklessly, they do really crazy things, they endanger the neighborhood. I just think those pieces raise everybody’s awareness and make us just a little more tense. You watch people run red lights and breeze through stop signs and do UIs in the middle of a street. And it just makes you feel that like we’re not safe feeling is still around. I don’t know how long it’s going to take us to come back from that. I don’t know. I don’t know how it’s going to take me to stop staring down a dark tinted SUV for. I’m not sure how long its going to take me to stop doing that. I’m not sure how it’s going to take it to stop reading plates from out of state vehicles as quickly as I can. Like, I’m so good at it right now. I don’t know how long that’s going to take, but a truck can come by me and I’m like that was a Florida plate. And I can say the first three. That’s just you’re just getting so good at this weird skill, such a weird skill set to have learned how to do. And I’m not sure how long people are going to... Even honks people are like I heard honking. That’s like the kind of stress level, high awareness is like, ah, we’re just like that. It’s still there and still pretty exhausting for people, I think.
Beth [00:31:45] I coach future problem solving and I’m in the midst of that endeavor right now. And we have a number of categories that we use to assess a situation. And it’s everything from arts and esthetics to physical health and recreation and the economy. And I just keep thinking about that list of categories in Minneapolis and all the ways that this operation has and will continue to change the city. I wonder what you see as most acute right now in terms of needs to tackle, and then what you think is going to be the longer term work to do.
Natalia Terfa [00:32:24] Yeah, I think the immediate needs are still the businesses that have been hurt. I think the ways that people aren’t attending, I mean, the two that are like the most apparent in my mind are like The Carmel Mall, which is a Somali sort of a place you can go and there’s just Somali stores everywhere, kind of like an indoor market. And then there’s version of that called Mercado Central, which is also a central market on Lake Street in Minneapolis that’s for the Latinx community. So I feel like those two they’re representative of greater community stores, shops, restaurants, places that just... But even in a less obvious way, like my daughter is 15 and she made like the Minnesota All-State 10th Grade Honor Choir. And they have this big conference and they’re supposed to do it in the city and they canceled it because people from outside of the city were really nervous about doing a conference in the city. And so that affected the hotel it stayed in. That affected The Convention Center and all the businesses around there and the restaurants. And this incredible school in a Southern suburb took it up and took it on and so they could still have their concert. But it’s like those little things too. It’s not just the everyday restaurants, but it’s the reputation of Minneapolis and are people scared to come here? And like, what stories are we telling? Somebody once commented on one of my posts that I wrote on Substack about what’s happening. They’re like, whatever, it’s not bad in Minneapolis. My friends one I was like, yes, we’re still going out because we still live here. Yes. And part of trusting the community is saying when I need to step out and do something for me or my family or for joy or for art or creativity or whatever it is, somebody stepping in. Like that’s what we’re trusting. That the web is big and we’re taking care of each other.
[00:34:37] And I don’t have to do it every second of every day and neither does anyone else. And what we are doing with those other parts of the day is being with each other and leaning into joy and still supporting our-- my husband and I, every time there’s this incredible taco shop just a couple blocks north of us, and we’re like, we’re supporting the local economy because we just go and get these incredible tacos and support this awesome business. And, yes, that’s what we’re all doing. We are doing these joyful, wonderful things, as well as leaning into taking care of people and supporting each other. And I think the balance of that is really interesting. I’m not sure with the patrolling and the commuters and the observing and the intensity of always being on alert and look out, I’m not sure how sustainable that is long term. I don’t know how we come down from it. To me, that’s the longer term question is like I don’t know how we stop doing this. Like are we doing this forever? I just don’t how we ramp down, how we do less, how stop looking over our shoulders or suspecting all these. I just don’t know how we stop doing that yet. I guess to me that’s the piece that feels hardest because I just don’t know when can we let our guard down? And it feels like the second we do something bad is going to happen. We don’t trust that they’re not going to keep doing something horrible. For a little while there was some violence by an ICE agent with a gun every like once a week. It was Renee and then it was the neighbors up on the north side that got shot up that were not killed. Thank goodness. And then a week later it was Alex Pretti. Like it just felt like it was constant and we’re all kind of holding our breath to see if it keeps happening. And I don’t know when we let our shoulders drop and our breath out yet. I’m not sure. I don’t know when that happens or how we let go. I don’t know.
Sarah [00:36:48] Well, I think history can be your guide. The whole time you were talking, I was thinking Londoners during the Blitz probably have a lot of insight because they did it for years and years and years.
Natalia Terfa [00:36:58] Yeah. And that’s true. Like you look at the people of Ukraine, you’re like they’re on years here. Like we’ve just done it a couple of months. Calm down, Natalia.
Sarah [00:37:05] No, I’m not even saying calm down. I’m just saying, like, they offer a lot of wisdom. You know what I mean? Like they offer a lot of wisdom about what that looks like. And I think it’s worth noting that Pantsuit Politics is not afraid to come to Minneapolis. We will be there at the end of August in a city that I love a great deal. I’m so excited. And it just brings tears to my eyes because I think it’ll be other cities that we love. Like, this is not over. And I think Minneapolis has done such a service to the nation by showing what it looks like when people are brave and courageous and show up and say we’re watching. Like, what if nobody had gotten a picture of Liam Ramos? He’d still be in Dilley, Texas. This stuff matters and it is dangerous and impactful, not just to the immigrant community, not just the Minneapolis community, but to America as a whole. And so thank you. Thank you so much for all the work you’ve done. Thank you for coming here and talking to us about it. Thank you to all your fellow community members. I just think it’s an incredibly powerful action and strategy that Minneapolis has shown the country.
Natalia Terfa [00:38:19] Well, I do just want to say one of the things I’ve loved most about how we’ve shown up for each other is that there’s been zero guilt or shame about the way people choose to show up. And I feel like that was sort of different in 2020. Like if you didn’t do it this way, you weren’t doing enough. But that has not been the case. It’s like you give as much as you can when you can and everybody’s like, yep, thanks. Like it’s just thank you for showing. If you were here for five minutes, if you we’re driving along Lake Street for five to drop a kid off or from coming back from dropping a kid off and you pop on the call, they’re like, thank you for being here for this little bit. If you have kids at home and you can’t leave, great, we’ve got a job for you. If you don’t want to interact with ICE at all, then you only interact with community members, great. We need you out there dropping off groceries. If you don’t feel safe going out in the community, great we’ve got inside jobs for you. It’s just like there was never a you have to do it this way. You have to show up at the Whipple building or you have to show in protest or you to do. There’s no have to’s in this movement in a way that has been really beautiful and freeing and there’s just no guilt in this, no shame in this movement. And it’s been so beautiful. I think that’s what’s made it so beautiful. Like however you show up, nobody’s like why weren’t you there? There is none of that happening. It’s just so lovely. And I hope that’s something people take from it too. Like if you don’t feel comfortable chasing ICR out of your neighborhood, please don’t. Like.
Sarah [00:39:55] Yeah.
Natalia Terfa [00:39:56] Trust that people will, trust that people do. It’s not all on you to fix what’s happening. That’s like whiteness at work, of course. And we don’t need to do that. You can trust that the great web that you’ve created of community and of humanity will show up and take care of each other. And you show up for your one piece and you’re part of the web. And that is so beautiful to see your place in this big wide web and to know that you matter and know that you’re not everything. And I just think that’s really important and has been at least for me really beautiful to be a part of like we all see each other and you’re like, yeah, I see you. It just feels really sort of like the community that has always been supposed to be. It’s always the one that’s supposed to be there.
Beth [00:40:50] Thank God for that because we’re talking about Ukraine and London as examples when this is being done by our own government. And the repair that will be needed on the other side of that really necessitates that kind of web where everybody has a role to play, but nobody has to be the hero. And I hope we can find a way to have some grace for each other on kind of the folks who didn’t show up as part of that effort, and the work that we have to do as Americans to figure out what happens on the other side of this for real because it’s horrifying to me to really sit with the reality that you don’t know when you get to exhale because your own government has made you feel that unsafe.
Natalia Terfa [00:41:36] Yeah, that’s hard. That’s really hard to fathom for me too. But my exhales, truly the exhales come from community. Like we hang out with each other. We do beautiful things. Brandy is going to be in town on Saturday. She’s going to help us take a breath. And it just feels like we’re going to have these moments to be together and to take breaths together. And it’s not happening because of something our government is or isn’t doing, but we’re taking breaths because of who we are together. And I think that’s how we do it. Unfortunately, I don’t think-- again, it’s the same lesson, but they’re not going to save us. Like they’re not going to save and so we’re just going to keep saving each other.
Beth [00:42:18] Well, that’s a perfect note to end on. Thank you so much, Natalia, for joining us and for everything that you’re doing.
Natalia Terfa [00:42:23] Thanks for having me. And I can’t wait for you guys to be here in August. Oh my gosh.
Beth [00:42:37] Thank you so much to Natalia for spending time with us and for sharing her perspective, which is so valuable. And I definitely don’t want to move on before it’s time to move on from Minneapolis. We are going to move on in our show today and just take that exhale at the end of the episode by talking about the Winter Olympics, which are wrapping up this weekend.
Sarah [00:42:57] So I haven’t really watched any of the Winter Olympics. I’ve just been following internet stories and controversies. I watched the dog cross the finish line. I know the quad god crashed out. I know about the controversy with Eileen Goo. I know The Olympic Village ran out of condoms. Do you know what I’m saying? I’m like following top level drama. I know I did watch one American downhill skier. It was a woman who’d won it at 18 and then never again. I did watch her win live in the morning because we were watching it in the morning before Felix went to school. And Felix has been watching a lot of curling. I know there’s a lot of curling controversies. Yes. So I’m absorbing a lot, but also nothing. Do you understand what I’m saying to you here?
Beth [00:43:42] Well, yes, and I would say that my experience of watching it is pretty similar because the Winter Olympic sports tend to be so specific and so detail-oriented. The scoring is so precise that I watch it and really all I think is, wow, look at them. Sometimes I think, wow, look at them, they’re crazy. I could never. Like would never, ever, ever do this. How are they doing this? How is this not the most terrifying thing that’s ever happened in their lives. But I have enjoyed watching it. Mostly I turn it on before bed with Chad and we watch a little bit of it. I was really excited that we had it on when Alana Myers Taylor, who’s 41, won the gold medal in the bobsled and then her son was there and she was signing to her son about her victory. It was a beautiful moment. I really like all of the people in their 40s just crushing it at the Winter Olympics. It’s been exciting to me.
Sarah [00:44:36] I’m into this and I need our help from our audience. I have big plans to attend the Los Angeles Summer Olympics. I am open to attending as an Olympian. So if anybody has some like low entry Olympic sport, I keep thinking about the Australian break dancing lady. I’m up for that. If you’re like, Sarah, I got it. I know what you could do maybe in the next two years.
Beth [00:45:02] If Team USA has an opening that they’re struggling to fill.
Sarah [00:45:05] Yeah, you know what I mean? Obviously, I’m not going to be like running track. I’m just saying like some of the ones that are like nobody’s watching, nobody’s paying attention until like some like 45 year old mom wins it. So I’m open. I’m just saying like I’m open for that opportunity from the universe.
Beth [00:45:25] Well, since we have been absorbing at a level that it’s not going to make for real in-depth sports analysis, I want to ask you what you think about the moms at the Olympics. Because there have been a couple of instances now where a female athlete has won and been interviewed, and a child has been right there with her in the scene. There was that viral clip of an Italian woman whose son was like doing the things that I felt it in my body that toddlers do, like pulling at her hair and touching her face. And I have gotten a number of DMs just saying, like, what do you think about this? Does this bother you? Do you love it? Like, how does that sit with you?
Sarah [00:46:06] It doesn’t bother me. No. I think it is, but I can see why it would bother people because it’s a real statement on motherhood, or in particular, you just don’t see dads having that experience. It’s not like any of these Olympians aren’t dads, but they’re not out there trying to manage their toddler while doing press interviews. Somebody else has the toddler. There’s no reason that could also not be true for women. Somebody else could have a toddler. But if it was like I wanted to hold my child in my moment of victory, that would bother me less than like the child wanted me and somebody gave him to me because he only wanted me. Like then that to me is... But what am I going to do? Critique that from my seat in the internet? Like, whatever. I think there’s bigger issues here.
Beth [00:46:58] Yeah, I have felt pretty neutral about it too. I think in part because, especially with these games, you see that athletes now understand that going to the Olympics is going to shine that bright light on you and everything that you’re doing is going to be scrutinized. You can tell they’re prepared this year for tough political questions. They’re prepared for questions about their lives. There was a great moment with an athlete where someone asked her like do these two silver medals feel like victories or like losses of gold? And she laughed in his face and was like, it’s just a big deal to win an Olympic medal. Like what a weird perspective. But you could tell like she’d done some media training maybe she was ready for that moment and handled it just very skillfully. So I say all that to say, I assume now that these folks are not unaware of what they’re doing in front of cameras. I think they have made choices deliberately. I think they handle themselves with a lot of professionalism, even outside the context of competition. And so I assume that they intend whatever they’re doing. And I just want to kind of respect like, okay, your intention was to share this moment with your child or to say something about motherhood or your intention is not and that’s fine too and neither is like morally superior to the other.
Sarah [00:48:19] Well, my thing is about the Olympics has always been the triumph of human spirit and what we all share together is a little overblown. Now, I’ve come around on this. Y’all have worn me down. And I’m much more pro-Olympics than I used to be. But this Eileen Gu story does sort of make all of what Sarah from 2000, let’s say 15 or 16 was saying, seem ever present. And even their like preparedness for the political questions. A lot of these people are not what anyone would call an amateur. You know what I mean? That’s not what they’re doing. Clearly, Eileen Gu, she trained in the United States and then when it competed for China, even though she’s an American. To me, that’s such a weird, again, indication that this isn’t always as simple and as wholesome as we would like it to be.
Beth [00:49:22] There was an interesting post that went, I guess, semi-viral about how Norway is so successful in the Winter Olympics, and Norway’s approach to recreation and sports is pretty opposite from what we do in the United States, that they have Olympic athletes who came up through pretty chill systems. It’s not like you have to start at three and be doing travel sports as a toddler to someday reach these heights. And I think that’s been an interesting conversation. I think there’s just been a lot of interesting conversations around these games and there always will be. And I’m with you. I used to have a lot more criticism for the Olympics than I do now. I kind of feel like it’s just not the most important thing to be upset about in the current state of the world. There are a lot of really fun stories. It’s nice to have on television, so I enjoyed it.
Sarah [00:50:15] I freaking love figure skating. I’m so into it.
Beth [00:50:18] Yeah, it’s fun to watch, and I’m happy for the people, and I just want to treat them with respect and let them have their moment in the spotlight and not let it last so long that they get doxed in hatred.
Sarah [00:50:29] I don’t even mind the, like, controversies. I like that the curlers are fighting. Who cares? You know what I mean? Like, who did touch it twice? Dun, dun, dun.
Beth [00:50:37] A little drama is good for us. That’s a low stakes drama.
Sarah [00:50:42] Exactly. Exactly.
Beth [00:50:43] I do want to give a quick shout out to our premium listeners who made the most incredible Google Slideshow with our own opening ceremony. We just super casually said, like, if you’d like to participate, I’ll drop a random country for you. And people made a slide about themselves and then a slide about the country and their athletes in the games. And they’re wonderful. If you haven’t seen it on you’re on Substack, you must find it. We’ll put a link in the notes. It’s just the feel good that I needed coming into these Olympic games. And we’ll do a medal count at the end and I’ll send some fun treats in the mail to the person whose country came through with the most medals. But we’ve enjoyed celebrating in that way this year too. Thank you so much for joining us for this episode of Pantsuit Politics. Thank you to Natalia Terfa and thanks to all of you for listening. We’ll be back with you next Tuesday. Until then have the best week available to you.
Show Credits
Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.
Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.
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Thank you so much for the conversation with Natalia. I have so appreciated hearing on her podcast about everything she has been doing here. I was just talking to a friend yesterday how it feels like the government’s strategy was to say they are leaving so people will stop supporting us then not actually leave. I am so worried about the ability to offer rent support to people who have not been able to work because they are afraid to leave their house. I have heard more than story of someone saying they are stuck in the room they are renting with their kid because their spouse was taken and they afraid of also being taken and their kid not having a parent. Standwithminnesota.com is still a great place to donate!
I've been wracking my brain trying to remember where I first heard about Pantsuit Politics years ago. And Natalia sparked it for me - I listened to her Cafeteria Christian podcast as I was going through a faith transition, and she mentioned you guys! What a lovely full-circle moment!