Thomas Paine and Tyranny in Minneapolis

ICE, Minneapolis, and Thomas Paine

There are certain words I avoid in political conversations. I do not often describe people as Nazis. I don’t brandy about the term fascist. I bristle at the overuse of the word pedophile. These words, which describe the most horrendous of crimes, are used as a form of rhetorical gotcha; if you point them out, you get covered in ick by association.

And yet I have struggled to find the right word to describe Donald Trump and his administration. I’m not looking for nuance or to use 15 words where one would do. I’m looking for moral clarity. I’m looking for linguistic precision.

Apparently, I was looking for Thomas Paine.

Reading Paine’s 250-year-old argument for revolution, I found the word I had been looking for - tyranny.

What we are experiencing is tyranny, defined as cruel and oppressive government. Cruel is a word used to describe Donald Trump for over a decade now, and his second administration’s particularly violent and hateful approach to immigration enforcement can be described in no other way. And yet, the word had not occurred to me until this week.

There was something about being immersed in Paine’s words while reading headlines about how Trump believes he is limited by only his morality, and watching more No Kings protest flow across the country, and seeing the absolutely angry and oppressive way ICE treats the citizens of this country that put it all together.

We are experiencing tyranny, and it is heartbreaking and infuriating, forcing all of us to confront what our government has become. It often feels inexplicable what finally turns the tide of American opinion, but I believe we are seeing it happen right now. It’s easy to say that what would happen under a second Trump term has been obvious since the beginning, but, as Paine so eloquently puts it, “Time makes more converts than reason.”

I don’t know if the time has come for everyone, but I know it has come for me. - Sarah

Topics Discussed

• Jerome Powell, Trump, and Fed Independence

• Tyranny in Minneapolis

• America250: Common Sense by Thomas Paine

• Outside of Politics: Food Predictions

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Episode Resources

• What to Know About the Criminal Investigation of Fed Chair Jerome Powell (The New York Times)

• Pirro on Powell probe: ‘None of this would have happened if they had just responded to our outreach’ (The Hill)

• You’ve Heard About Who ICE Is Recruiting. The Truth Is Far Worse. I’m the Proof. (Slate)

• Six Prosecutors Quit Over DOJ Push to Investigate Renee Good’s Widow (The New York Times)

• Common Sense by Thomas Paine (Bill of Rights Institute)

• How We’ll Eat in 2026: Food Forecasters Predict More Caution and More Crunch (The New York Times)

• NYC restaurants are too loud — so this New Yorker is trying to make decibel levels public (New York Post)

Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:08] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:10] This is Beth Silvers. You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. Today, we are going to talk about the actions of this administration in Minneapolis at the Federal Reserve, throughout the world. And that is going to lead us to our moment that we have been bringing to episodes to observe America’s 250th birthday year because we have been reading Thomas Paine’s Common Sense. It talks a lot about tyranny and I think tyranny is the umbrella existing over the entirety of our political conversations on this episode. And then Outside of Politics, we’re going to take a really hard turn and talk about food. I think Sarah has a somewhat tyrannical framework for her eating right now in that she is rejecting all soft food. But we’re going to talk about food predictions from the New York Times for this year and spend a healthy amount of time digging into Sarah’s feeling that soft food is off her list.

Sarah [00:00:58] I stand by it. I said what I said. Okay. Before we start, we wanted to give a special shout out and thank you to our newest executive producers who have joined us. Jenny, Kelly, Ash and Miranda, welcome. We are delighted to have you. As you know, Pantsuit Politics is an independent media company and that means we can’t get fired-- which is good-- or canceled by executives. And we have the freedom to talk about what we want to talk about, but it also means that we rely on all of you for our financial support. So thank you to everyone who supports the show at all levels, but an extra thank you to the support from our executive producers. Which means the world to us.

Beth [00:01:34] Up next, let’s talk about Jerome Powell. Sarah, I want to just go back to the weekend. Sunday night, when Jerome Powell, the chair of the Federal Reserve, not known for splashy social media videos, is out there going viral, saying essentially, the president is using the Justice Department to try to shake me down, and I won’t stand for it. I’m wondering how you took that in.

Sarah [00:02:18] I would like to say that it was also not splashy, it was just effective. Because he does it so rarely, you forget what happens when somebody who very rarely uses these tools uses them. Also, Jeanine Pirro is so drunk, and I would her to go away. That’s my official... She is popping up way too much right now. I just want to say that definitively. So because she’s the one who opened this investigation in November and everybody got mad because apparently the one thing members of Congress do care about is the independence of the Federal Reserve. I don’t think Donald Trump cares anymore, but they apparently still care. And everybody got mad, and he does what he always does when he finds out everybody’s mad. He goes, “I don’t know anything about it.” Which is such an outrageous response from the President of the United States. Even if it’s true, which I don’t believe, that is not an acceptable answer from the leader of the free world. Are you kidding me?

Beth [00:03:22] Especially when he has worked all day, every day to assure us that the Justice Department is not independent. It’s his Justice Department. They do what he says. And the idea Jeanine Piero is the person that I used to reference in his first term, well, at least he hasn’t put Judge Jeanine on the Supreme Court. That’s how absurd she is. And now she’s a United States attorney. And I do hate that we are constantly being reminded of that right now.

Sarah [00:03:49] And my favorite part is that her loyalty is rewarded by disloyalty, where they’ll like throw her right under the bus.

Beth [00:03:55] Yes.

Sarah [00:03:56] In a away, if I’m like well rested and have meditated and just generally feel secure in my humanity, I can almost feel sorry for all these bozos because good Lord, you would never relax because I know they know there is no loyalty here. It is what have you done for me today, this afternoon, this very minute. I know they know that and God, what an exhausting way to live. Just tap dancing all the time. And if you’re a woman, also tap dancing around your appearance and making sure you’re going full Mar-a-Lago face all the times too. Just got to throw that in there. Because I do feel like Beth that it’s just easy to miss all the rampant misogyny happening constantly. So just want to throw up that flare amongst all this attack on the Federal Reserve.

Beth [00:04:59] I feel like in addition to look the right way if you’re a woman, be from sensual casting if you are a man, it’s important for the men with their appearance within too.

Sarah [00:05:07] True.

Beth [00:05:08] And not just what have you done for me lately, but how did you make me feel when you did it? It’s just the capriciousness is just exploding. I thought we had seen the upper limits of it the first time. I really think all the time about how I felt there was no more to learn about Donald Trump, but I was just wrong about that. There are new heights and depths constantly.

Sarah [00:05:32] Well, and again, if you just want to have a practice in humanity, it’s not just what have you done; it is the fact that you are also at the mercy of whatever anyone else may have done or said, including the person who talked to him last. So can you imagine? Can you imagine how awful that must feel. And so it’s like you can see how they all end up acting like big mean dum-dums all the time. Your brain’s going to be really taxed by all that choreography, offensive, defensive, the anxiety, the paranoia, it’s not going to help anybody put their best foot forward, you know what I’m saying?

Beth [00:06:26] I think that’s an extremely relevant point to imagine how taxed everyone in the administration is when the administration keeps filling its own inbox with matters of extreme sensitivity geopolitically and domestically.

Sarah [00:06:44] If we’re doing a little trip down memory lane, do you remember the late fall, early November around all these elections? And we’re like, oh no, people care about affordability and this is a real weak point for him. And people are concerned that he is focusing too much abroad and internationally and not paying attention to the hardship domestically. And we were told he was going to start paying attention to that. And instead, what we have received is an incursion in Venezuela, an argument that perhaps maybe if we feel like it, we will bomb Iran. Oh, we’re going to invade Greenland. But don’t worry, affordability is a hoax. A hoax I’m paying attention too. A hoax I’m pay attention to while I’m also basically putting multiple American cities under siege. Everything’s fine.

Beth [00:07:43] Sarah, I keep thinking about how I read Project 2025 and I took it very seriously. And the part that I found most impressive in Project 2025 was the defense section where Christopher Miller, who worked as the Secretary of Defense for some time and Trump won, laid out a really clear and compelling case that America is not equipped to fight multiple wars right now. We cannot handle war on multiple fronts. That was the drum beat of Project 2025 section on the Department of Defense. And that we need to get smarter, we need to rebuild our capabilities, we need to work on the way that we purchase and acquire equipment. And I do not recall anywhere seeing but you know the way to do that might be to stretch our capacity across the entire world looking for a fight. And that seems to be the philosophy of the Pete Hegseth Department of Defense. Let’s just go around the world shoving people in their lockers and looking for a fight anywhere we can find it.

Sarah [00:08:51] Forget across the world! Across the world and across the country!

Beth [00:08:56] Yes.

Sarah [00:08:56] Yeah, their strategy seems to be everything all at once. Because I felt it in my bones. And I think I felt in my bone when I heard it repeated somewhere else because I’d said it on the show. Their attention span is so short. It’s like the ADHD administration. Like that’s what it feels like. It’s just impulsivity after impulsivity after impulsivity. And that is no way to run a nation. That is just no way run a nationwide. And even if some of it seemingly works out, again, it’s not working out in Gaza. That is a war of attrition, not a ceasefire. It is not working in Ukraine. They are facing an incredibly difficult winter after Russia has taken out much of their energy infrastructure. It’s not going to work out in Venezuela. You think we’re going to fix Venezuela? Give me a freaking break. It’s not working out anywhere. I cannot fathom particularly after the fall when it seemed like they were taking in data, some of the input from the American people or from these elections. And now it just feels like, never mind, we’re just going to double down.

Beth [00:10:20] It’s also cruel. In addition to not working out, it’s cruel because it sounds like the people of Iran, some of the protesters there, have genuine hope and expectation that the United States is going to come in and do regime change. Well, why wouldn’t they after Venezuela? That’s right. And that people are making decisions based on that calculus, putting their own lives and their own safety on the line because they believe that America is coming to the rescue. Now I want freedom and liberation and prosperity for the people of Iran. They have lived under an oppressive regime for far too long. But I think I joined the vast majority of Americans in saying that should not come because the United States got involved. We should not get involved here. And I just think it’s mean.

Sarah [00:11:09] Well, that’s a feature, not a bug, dude. Unfortunately. I’ve been thinking a lot about this because of Iran and Venezuela in particular, but also about Greenland and this post-World War II order. And I understand, truly I do, as a person who wants justice in the world that it is appealing to think, and even I think there is a grain of truth to this idea of he is freeing us from this, at times hypocritical, at many times slow, seemingly ineffective approach to foreign policies and particularly oppressive regimes that we have been operating under since at least the post-Cold War era. I get it. There is a part of me that’s like if fear that Donald Trump will pop off, keeps authoritarian government in check, even better gets rid of them, it’s appealing. I get it. I get why like, well, my guys in charge isn’t that great, can be comforting in a chaotic world that changes at a rapid pace. I don’t need to be convinced. He won’t always be there. He won’t always, even if you are like Steve Bannon and you believe in Donald Trump, 2020, whatever, he’s not immortal. And the risk, if you’ve even tiptoed in to world history, is that there’s real danger when the king dies. It led to enormous instability, suffering, oppression for thousands of years across Europe and the rest of the world.

[00:13:27] We built a system that says, yeah, we don’t invade other countries just based on we’re stronger. And it led to human flourishing-- not utopia, didn’t end oppression, it didn’t and authoritarian governments. But this idea of there are rules we’re following led to a lot of improvement and stability and an understanding that the rule of law was the great equalizer. And international law is not perfect and the United Nations is not and NATO is not perfect. I get it. But this only feels good in the moment. And then when he’s gone, there’s nothing anybody can look to, to say, okay, but this is how it works. Even a norm, a process, an international treaty. Like it’s just going to be law of the freaking jungle, which is seemingly what they want because I guess it feels good now when you’re in charge of the jungle. But that is not a permanent state of affairs and what we were able to achieve by pointing to something different, by following different rules and processes and norms was a level of prosperity and stability the world has never known. And the way they are willing to torch it in the service of ego and their own short ass attention spans is breathtaking.

Beth [00:14:51] Well, and I think that they are ensuring that none of it even fleetingly feels good by their domestic operations. Because when Donald Trump says we have to take Greenland or else Russia or China will, he is drawing the comparison to those regimes that is alarming when you look at what’s going on in Minnesota. Following the death of Renee Nicole Good in Minnesota, Kristi Noem and the Department of Homeland Security decided to double down on the presence of ICE agents. And there are now more than 3,000 immigration officers in Minnesota. And I just typed that sentence and then had to stare at it for a second- 3,000 immigration agents in Minnesota. In what universe does that make sense?

Sarah [00:15:49] What I’m realizing is that all he has done is end the chaos at the border and export it to American cities. The immigration chaos that I will fully own Biden’s policy produced is not over. It’s just present in American cities. It’s horrific. It is horrific. I mean, the videos, the way people are describing what it is like to be in Minneapolis right now-- and again, this is Minneapolis. Have you all ever been to Minneapolis? You know what I mean?

Beth [00:16:44] I know exactly what you mean.

Sarah [00:16:44] This is not some scene out of fucking Robocop, man. Like this Minneapolis in the winter. People are making their cast rolls and trying to stay warm, okay? I just don’t understand why the upper Midwest is where they have decided to launch an invasion. It is outrageous. It is ridiculous. It has dick all to do with illegal immigration.

Beth [00:17:09] I am seeing the videos on social media. I am reading the reports. What has touched me most is hearing directly from listeners of ours, people we know, people who’ve listened to the show for years. And I fully understand that you and I can be a tough hang for people if their tendency is to really talk about what the administration is doing in extreme terms because we have tried to be very careful as this new administration has come into office to not repeat things that we see as mistakes from the first time. Like we have tried to be really reflective and cautious. And when I hear from listeners who have been with us through all that, who’ve stayed with us, even when we have rubbed them the wrong way or taken a tone that didn’t match what they were feeling; and I hear them in such detail, so specifically what’s happening on the ground in Minneapolis it is to me incredibly persuasive and we appreciate all of those emails. We’re going to play for you a voice memo from Natalia who we have known for years now, describing what she has seen. And it’s a couple of minutes, but I think it’s absolutely worth everyone’s time and attention.

Natalia [00:18:31] Hey, Sarah and Beth. It’s Natalia from Minneapolis. I was going to write an email and all I could think was I don’t even know what to write in an email except people who aren’t here don’t know how bad it is. It’s so bad. Somebody just got abducted two blocks from my house. I’m in South Minneapolis. I’m in a quiet neighborhood. ICE has been everywhere this weekend. They’re driving erratically and unsafely. They are blowing through stop signs. They are pulling people off the streets. They are grabbing observers out of their cars. They are pointing guns at people’s faces and threatening them, saying things like, “Didn’t you learn anything last week? Make a good choice so you have a good day.” It’s just tiny men with big guns on a power trip and it is horrific and so scary. And I’m a white lady you guys. I’m fine. I am probably fine. I don’t even know if I can say I’m fine anymore. But they’re not targeting me and yet they are hurting people who get in the way. And it’s not just Renee Goode, right? Like that’s part of the fear that lots of people have, but Minnesotans are putting their bodies on the line and standing up for their neighbors. And you should see these chats. I mean, they’re incredible. People are, hey, there’s a ICE vehicle pulled over and people are like, “On my way,” and they just run towards danger. It so horrifying and hopeful at the same time. I don’t know what that word is. I just feel like people who aren’t here don’t know. And even people who weren’t in Minneapolis don’t quite know. And St. Paul too, but they are terrorizing the neighborhoods. They are terrorizing the neighborhoods. It is awful. Like they are just everywhere.

[00:20:53] Yesterday I was driving around, there were ICE vehicles, you watch them disobey traffic rules. They take UIs in the middle of the street, they blow through stop signs, they are making our community-- I mean, duh, but they’re making our community less safe just before they’re even starting to grab people. But it is just horrific, and I don’t even know how to say this, but I just want your people to know that it’s bad. And if they’ve been wondering or watching or observing from the sides, this is not that time anymore. If you’re too scared to leave your house, okay, call your reps, call your city council members, call your governors, call your mayors, call your Congress people. I know they’re not doing anything right now, but this is ridiculous. And video is getting out and people are starting to see and it seems like that’s not happening everywhere. You guys, those videos that you see on the internet are happening everywhere in every neighborhood. They’re going door to door. They’re asking Minnesotans to tell on their neighbors, which of course we don’t do, but they’re just terrorizing people and it’s so scary and you have a gun in your face and they’re like, tell me where your neighbor is. I understand why people might do it, but like, no, you don’t get to do that here. You don’t get to do that. That’s not who we are. I mean, that is obviously now who we are, but that’s not what Minnesotans are. And we’re not telling on each other and we’re protecting each other. But we are just frozen people up here against thousands of ICE agents with big guns and masks on their faces. And I just want people to know that it’s as bad as you think it is. It is as bad as you think it is.

Sarah [00:22:58] Yeah, I was going to say before we played the clip, stay tuned because I’m done. I’m done being careful. I don’t know-- maybe it’s just because we were reading Common Sense by Thomas Paine. I don’t know another word for this but tyranny. I truly do not. I do not know another for what is taking place in Minneapolis.

Beth [00:23:23] I think that’s right. It serves no one. When you listen to what the administration says they’re doing, it sounds like tyranny. They’re sending ICE agents to protect ICE agents. There is no pretense of protecting and serving the American public. The American public now is the enemy of the ICE agent.

Sarah [00:23:42] Yes, absolutely.

Beth [00:23:43] That is a messed up system. That is the philosophy of a government that is no longer there for the people and by the people and of the people. And I think all the reporting that you hear surrounding ICE-- and we’re just at the tip of the iceberg, right? There are people coming out early with information about ICE training and procedures and incidents. We’re going to have a flood of that, a tsunami, as more outlets are able to confirm that reporting and dig in deeper. But what we know right now is that they have hastily assembled this force. They will hire damn near anybody to serve in it.

Sarah [00:24:24] Including a Slate reporter.

Beth [00:24:26] Including a Slate reporter who did not complete any of the paperwork or pass a drug test from her own perspective. She said she just wanted to go through what the experience was like. And this is Laura Jadeed at Slate and it’s really worth reading her reporting because to me, in addition to the sloppiness of the hiring process, the carelessness, the recklessness of the firing process, she also describes an attitude that is present in the recruiting stage. We want to put as many guns and badges out in the field as possible. We want to combat these liberal cities. We’re proud of our new pepper ball guns. You just pop them up. This is a quote, “But let them disperse and cry about it.” Against American citizens, they are from the recruiting stage, bringing people in to be adverse to American citizens. So what do you call that other than tyranny?

Sarah [00:25:23] It’s not even the approach to ICE. It is now the approach to this investigation into Goode’s killing. You have six federal prosecutors, people who were leading the fraud investigations that the Trump administration claims they care so deeply about resigning because J. Edgar Hoover style, they’re investigating her widow and her politics. What is this? I know what it is. It’s tyranny. Even this like, look, manosphere out there, the no tyranny guys are like if you hate liberals more than you hate our government, you’re not paying attention here. And I don’t hate our government, but when you have Miss and Miss Little Miss Moderates here in Kentucky saying this is tyranny and Mr. AK-47 on his podcast saying this tyranny, then I don’t know what else you need to know. And look, it is so easy to get on Facebook and see one or two people you know insulting Renee Goode or defending this officer and feel like all is lost. It’s really easy to do that because that’s what social media does. But the other thing social media does is democratize to a certain extent. And everyone has seen that video and most people know what they see. And these videos of these confrontations and the way ICE agents are running rampant over the freedom we are guaranteed as American citizens is also being seen. ICE is completely underwater with the American people. They hate what they see. Sixty nine percent of Americans have seen the clip and you have a negative 14 point favorability with ICE. That’s a 30 point swing since January. They’re about as popular as the IRS. And especially with these young independent guys, they see it, they don’t like it. So social media can be a hall of mirrors, but people in our even decentralized media environment are seeing what’s happening in Minneapolis and they are saying, no. And it’s not even Minneapolis. This didn’t happen. Like that 14 point swing from January didn’t happen in the last two weeks. It’s been happening for months. People do not accept this. It is un-American.

Beth [00:27:54] That’s right. And I think that incident in Minneapolis will drag that number down even farther as time goes on. Because the more you learn about what happened there, and the more you watch that video, as horrific as it is-- and it is bad for us. It is bad for us as I said the first time we talked about this, to be watching someone get murdered on our phones. It’s terrible. At the same time, what you see when you watch that is that he’s filming on his cell phone with one hand while he has his gun with another. No one can defend that. No one could defend that! People know that shooting into a car-- every police officer who’s been out there talking about it is like you don’t shoot into a car. Because now you’ve turned a car into a dangerous weapon that’s out of control. There are just so many pieces of it. And then you get the audio of someone calling her a bitch after they’ve shot her to death. People know what attitude is behind that kind of language. I heard Jake Tapper asking Kristi Noem about that. And I thought she should be asked that every time she’s in front of a microphone until her days in public service are over. What are you doing about the culture that is clearly at work here? Because whether or not this was justified as a matter of self-defense under the criminal law, surely that is not how you want your agents to think of American civilians who are protesting. That this whole explicitly stated rationale from the administration from person after person, the Vice President, the President himself, the cabinet members, that people who are disrespectful to them deserve to die is outrageous. It is outrageous! And I do think you’re right that it is breaking through. I’ve heard people who are extremely temperate in every way say, I don’t know how I can vote for a Republican after this. I think this is going to radicalize a certain part of the population in a way that I really worry about. And I think it is going to realign the parties again.

Sarah [00:30:09] Yeah, to the people who were concerned about government tyranny back in the 90s when you were talking about what, a family of six in deep country Idaho, and you’re looking at this and you don’t have any tyrannical concerns? Because I do. I have a lot of concerns. And this idea, I hope, will finally break through that we are not each other’s enemies based on partisanship. We are not each other’s enemies based on partisanship. This is what this looks like. Based on whether or not you respect our party leader matters on whether or not you have the full assurances of the United States constitution that has existed for 250 years and that many people, including some of my ancestors, died for? No. Unacceptable.

Beth [00:31:12] I saw a clip interviewing a protester this morning and I won’t play it here because it would just be beeping the language. But this guy was saying, “I don’t do politics. This is the first protest I’ve ever been to in my life. But this is insane.” He’s like, “I got to go to work tomorrow. Nobody’s paying me to be here.” What I see is that they are just grabbing people, they’re handcuffing them, they’re detaining them, they’re beating them after they’re in handcuffs. He’s like, they are just out here to scare everybody. And that’s not right. And it’s not right and I think people know it. And if two or three people in your feed don’t, don’t worry about it.

Sarah [00:31:55] It’s un-American. And I just think at what point-- I was listening to an interview with a person from a mental health institution that had to live in fear for 24 hours because on a whim that no one understood, they tried to cut mental health funding across the country. And I thought at this point my community has absolutely been touched by the capriciousness of this administration. I have been touched personally by this. So at what point are you just not getting to critical mass with people being like, oh my God, it’s just every whim. He could just wake up tomorrow ruin my life.

Beth [00:32:34] Well, and this is the most-- not the most galling thing because there’s a long list of galling things. But the idea-- and this is relevant as Congress has to pass a budget this month-- that we were spending too much money trying to prevent the spread of malaria and E. Coli throughout the world, or too much money having investigators going to schools to get asbestos and lead out. Or too much money having people at every social security office to help people figure out their benefits. The idea that we’re spending too much money on all of that, but we can pay these guys a couple hundred thousand dollars and a $50,000 signing bonus to go rough up their fellow citizens. That we can have a blank check for pepper spray and for bullets and for masks but not body cameras. You know what I mean? None of this adds up anymore. And I’m curious here what you think Congress ought to do with this budget process now. I feel myself becoming kind of a single issue voter. And that single issue is, will you use the power you have? I’m ready to see Congress do something meaningful here.

Sarah [00:33:53] Well, it’s so interesting because my head was spinning. I thought what you were going to say is, how much does it make sense to cut mental health facilities when you’re so worried about the fentanyl crisis you’re ready to invade a cocaine-ridden country like Venezuela? Like, it’s all based on whim. You do not need to care about politics at all to understand that it is based on whim. And you don’t need to have taken a United States civics course or a history course to understand the basics that our founding fathers were worried about this, and that is why we have a system of checks and balances. And you know what I’d like to see? A fucking check. That’s what I would like to hear from Congress. A check, any check, at any time. That would be great.

Beth [00:34:38] And that check can come in the form of the checks. They have the power of the purse. They can shut some of this down and they need to. And I don’t care how it’s framed. There’s all this conversation about should we say abolish ICE or reform? I don’t care. We know what Donald Trump did when he thought that things felt out of control with immigration. He said, “We’re going to pause everything until we figure out what the hell’s going on.” That’s what I’d like to see Congress do. I’d like to see them pause ICE until they figure out what the Hell’s going.

Sarah [00:35:06] I mean, 46% of Americans support abolish ICE. I felt myself cringe and then I read that statistics and I’m like, well, hell, okay, fine. I’m not going to cringe anymore if everybody’s like, you know what, never mind. We actually don’t like the president having his own personal paramilitary force. Yes, correct. Correct. ICE is the most well-funded law enforcement group in the nation right now. I don’t think Americans like it.

Beth [00:35:33] We also don’t like seeing Stephen Miller on television telling them do whatever you want. You have total protection and immunity. Do whatever you want to do because we got your back here. It’s not okay.

Sarah [00:35:44] He’s got there back from a military base where he moved. Stephen Miller can miss me completely. Thank you so much.

Beth [00:35:53] Before we wrap this segment up, we want to go back to something that one of our listeners told us from Minnesota. Kate wrote in and shared her experience, which is also horrifying, the things that she’s seeing and the things are happening all around her. And she also said, “Please keep reminding us that there’s good in everyone. Everyone, please keep reminded us that when we let hate, anger, and fear take over, we lose ourselves, not our enemies. And know that in Minneapolis and in Minnesota, you shovel your neighbor’s sidewalk. We push a stranger’s car when they get stuck and we will continue to protect our neighbors and our values as long as it takes.” And that is the kind of resilience in the face of tyranny that this country was founded on. And I really, really appreciated Kate giving us those words to close this discussion out. Next up, we have been reading Common Sense by Thomas Paine. You have to say it that way to keep your millennial in good standing card. And we’re going to chat a little bit about that pamphlet that kicked off the revolution. Sarah, what made you want to go back in and revisit this work?

Sarah [00:37:07] I just like anything that someone tells me I can do to celebrate America 250. I’m really committed. So it’s the 250th anniversary of the pamphlet on February 14th. And so I thought, oh, perfect. Let’s reread it. I’m going to say it’s a bop. Really stands up.

Beth [00:37:23] It is so funny to think about the fact that it’s called Common Sense and read about how it was so effective because the language is so plain. Like a lot of it sounds different to me now because of what we’ve lived in the past few years and just the way the propaganda has become such a big part of our political climate. And then at the same time I read it and I was like, Hell yeah, America, let’s build a Navy. Let’s do this, like it really kind of fires you up.

Sarah [00:37:57] Beth, I have a difficult question for you. As I was reading Common Sense, where he spends a lot of time basically trying to convince loyalists that, like, the ship has sailed, y’all. Like, we’re not going to get back on the right path. We’re not going to work this out. We’re not going to find a peaceful path forward. I worried. Considering I have high stakes, I would have had high stakes at the time. I have three young children. I like my life. I live kind of far removed from the halls of power. I worry I would have been a loyalist. As a devoted moderate. Do you worry about that? Did you worry reading it like, oh shit, I think this is how I would have felt. He would have been trying to convince me.

Beth [00:38:52] I did worry about that. I also worried this section where he talks about how you do the most good at the beginning of things and then once commerce takes hold, everybody gets really comfortable. Commerce diminishes the spirit, both of patriotism and military defense. And history sufficiently informs us that the bravest achievements were always accomplished in the non-age of a nation. That didn’t feel great to me either.

Sarah [00:39:19] I felt this during the American Revolution, the documentary by Ken Burns. You just forget even the Minutemen, absolutely the local militias, they were just kind of constantly like can’t we just get back to normal? I don’t want to do this anymore. This is enormous sacrifice. I’m losing my life. My friends are losing their lives. My farm is falling apart. My family is at the whims of British shoulders marching through the countryside. It just reminds me like, man, it’s the safety of status quo is always so enticing. And how incredible it was that so many people said, yeah, I know, but we can’t. I know you want to, but we can’t. I felt that from Thomas Paine, just like, I get it, guys. I get it. But it’s over. Violence is now the answer. I mean, that is the argument he’s making. He is not saying like yeah there’s common sense, and yeah there is reason, and I’m going to make this case for you but be clear about what I’m arguing here. The dime is for war. And I just wonder if I would have ever been a person that would have said, yeah, sure, war.

Beth [00:40:33] Yeah, I don’t know. I also was really compelled by him saying, in the long run, this is for peace because kings make war, Monarchs lead to war; republics tend toward peace. It is critical that the people-- like I think he was saying the same thing, but saying this is just our time to get there. Because you do, and you see it now, when you have someone who believes he is only beholden to his own moral code and nothing else, you end up in whatever fight he wants to pick. And when you ask the whole, people say, no, I want to just get on with my life. I don’t want to be embroiled in that kind of conflict.

Sarah [00:41:17] There was definitely a part of my life in my early 20s-- I’ve been going through a lot of my like memorabilia, the archive of my live-- and I found this printout of a paper ad in Lexington that we took out with like the undersigned or opposed to the Iraq war. My name is on the list. Griffin thought it was very cool. And so there was a definitely a time in my life where hawk was such an insult. Like to be pro-intervention or pro-war or anything. But there was definitely a point later in life that I stopped feeling that way and that I definitely understood, and definitely through the lens a lot of Hillary Clinton’s particular approach to foreign policy that I was like, okay, I can be persuaded. And I do understand certain people’s approach that like, no, at a certain point you have to step in and there has to be action and the time for diplomacy is over. And so I hope I would have been persuaded by Thomas Paine that like, yeah, you might protect your son’s lives in the short term, but what promise will they have if we’re constantly under the tyranny of a monarch? I thought he says a lot. He’s got a real good riff against hereditary monarchy. But I thought one of his best things was like whoever heard of a tiny island ruling a whole continent? Just geographically. I was like, yeah, that is so stupid. Who ever thought that was going to work?

Beth [00:42:49] There are lots of pieces like that where the common sense name really rings true, where he’s really appealing to just anything. He’s like, look, you want to talk about this religiously? I got you. You want to talk it geographically? I got you. You want to talk about the wisdom of a child having dominion over a whole empire and then the way that advisors in the background are actually pulling those strings unaccountably? I got you. So it’s a throw everything at the wall approach here to try to bring everybody around to the central point that America continuing to live under a king under any rubric made no sense.

Sarah [00:43:29] I love the, “In short, monarchy and succession have laid not this or that kingdom only, but the world in blood and ashes.” I was like Thomas, that good, buddy. Good job there. I still thought it was so interesting how he said our parent is Europe, not England. We are not all English. And we all come from Europe, particularly with Donald Trump’s constant assault on Europe. I just thought, yeah, damn, he’s right. Even as early as the revolution, it’s not like we all came from one place.

Beth [00:44:01] He said a lot about Europe that I thought held up to just the importance of commerce among the nations. The way that everyone in Europe has different needs and America has an opportunity to fill some of those needs. His perspective on international trade, I thought was surprisingly on point today, even as different as the world is. I was interested in your thoughts on the way that he described government, that society is produced by our wants and government by our wickedness. And he talked about government as really just being this necessity, this unfortunate necessity to guard against our worst impulses, but that we really build what we want, not through government, but through society.

Sarah [00:44:45] I really thought that was so good and could be a real roadmap for the Democratic Party because I think even in my own story, in my history, like, government was going to be like the West Wing version, it was going to make everybody better. And I do think we lost track of like-- well, I mean, maybe. But perhaps we should start with just paying attention to how government can reign in our vices. I use that word very specifically. I would like to see government reign in gambling. I would like to see Government reign in porn. I would like to see Government reign in obviously crime. I love James Talarico being like we have to do public safety first or foremost, or what is even the point? And I think we lost sight of that. So hearing him lay it out, if we don’t do that part right we can’t get to anything else. And if we neglect the role society plays, which I think conservatives have always done a better job of sort of naming-- at least when I was coming up, maybe not now, but naming that this matters too. And liberals scoffing at it has definitely harmed the body politic.

Beth [00:46:06] Yeah, I remembered a lot of why I initially identified as conservative reading this because I do kind of see it this way. And I do think that what you build in community voluntarily has more potential in the long-term to do good than what you can do through government because government is such a blunt instrument and such a powerful one and has such ramifications anytime it acts. So I was really into his description. Now, I wish any of that were still true about the conservative movement. It’s not. No one is there anymore. And that’s why I think there’s still this lane for a new party that we might see in 2028 emerge. I don’t know.

Sarah [00:46:51] Which we discussed on the spicy, if you’d like to hear more about that.

Beth [00:46:55] Yes, but this was a great exercise. I really enjoyed reading it. And I really related when I was thinking about Minneapolis to the part where he talks about how when you experience tyranny from government, it is even more miserable because we make government. Government isn’t natural law. We, in theory, consent to be governed in some way. And so when your government is brutal toward you, it is like a very particular injury. And I think that is playing out all across the United States right now.

Sarah [00:47:26] And I thought that moment where he was like, maybe you’re fine, but take for a minute and think about what it must be like in Boston, because Boston suffered. Boston suffered. They were fully occupied. And I think it is so tempting to be like, well, I’m okay. And not realize like, yeah, you are, but Minneapolis was okay when they were doing this in Los Angeles. And Los Angeles was okay when they we’re doing this in other cities, right? You cannot always wait for it to knock on your door or it might be too late. And I thought he named that particular pain and the way it is important as a group of citizens to take the harm to any as a harm to all. The part of the margins that I wrote, ugh! When he was talking about the composition of the Continental Congress. At least 390 members, Beth.

Beth [00:48:27] I knew you were going to park on that.

Sarah [00:48:28] God dammit! do you know what the population of revolutionary America was? 2.5 million. And they had just to submit.

[00:48:38] Thomas Paine said uncap the House. Uncap the f***ing House. We’re over 10 times the size. So I think we should start it with at least 4,000 members. Thank you so much. 390 in 1776. And in 2026, we’re looking at 435.

Beth [00:48:59] Part of what I loved in here is how he would say, I’m just trying to hint at things. Like you come up with another plan. I’m throwing some stuff out. And I loved that spirit. I love thinking about how like this is basically an editorial that he wrote and just got it to everybody and it made this enormous difference. I referenced Project 2025 earlier. I think that’s what I respected in it. Even as so much of it I completely disagree with and find some of it abhorrent. But I respect that idea of how powerful it is when people sit down and say, I got a vision and I’m going to share it. You have your vision, you can pick at this, you can tear it apart, you can take some of it and evolve it in your own direction, but it is a big deal to be willing to lay out a vision. And I loved that he was like owning, this is my vision, have your own, but we got to talk about it, we got to do something.

Sarah [00:49:55] I do want to say that, yeah, there were parts where he was like, let’s just talk about it. And there were part where he was very much standing on moral clarity and a moral foundation. And it wasn’t just the policy will get us closer. It was this is a matter of are you a good person or are you not a good person? And particularly in that section about Boston. And it is the good fortune of many to live distant from the scene of sorrow. The evil is not sufficiently brought to their doors to make them feel the precariousness with which all American property is possessed. And he goes off and is like maybe you feel that way, but that is wrong. I put exclamation points because this was like so forcefully written and contains such moral judgment. He said, “Have your house been burned? Has your property been destroyed before your face? Are your wife and children destitute on a bed to lie on or bread to live on? Or have you lost a parent or a child by their hands and yourself the ruined watch survivor? If you have not, then you are not a judge of those who have. But if you have. And still can shake hands with the murderers, then you are unworthy of the name of husband, father, friend, or lover. And whatever may be your rank and title in life, you have the heart of a coward and the spirit of a sycophant.” Oh, Thomas.

Beth [00:51:13] I don’t know totally how to feel about that. I really struggled reading all of the places where he was saying, this cannot be reconciled because that’s generally not my view of life. And so it’s challenging. It’s a challenging read. And I don’t take it all as gospel and there are definitely parts of it that I thought, I don’t know that that comports with my worldview. I don’t know if that makes me a loyalist today. I don’t know what that makes me. I always struggle with the quotes about moderates. And I struggle with it in a bunch of different contexts because I really do believe in being a peacemaker. And I really do believe that violence is almost never the answer. And I also believe in moral clarity and moments that demand a lot of courage. I struggle right now knowing what’s happening in Minneapolis, knowing that it could come to Kentucky, not wanting to invite that. But also wanting to be prepared for it and wanting to have thought through what would my role be if it were here? And then what is my role when it’s happening to my neighbors? I think all of those questions are as salient and as difficult today as they may have been in his time.

Sarah [00:52:26] It was hard watching the American Revolution and see the violence and cruelty brought to the doorsteps of loyalists. It wasn’t like they were just fighting the British. He very much describes it as a civil war. It was neighbor against neighbor. If you supported the monarchy versus if you supported The Revolution. Because there was a lot on the line right in that moment and obviously in the future. And so it is deeply affecting, but deeply humanizing to me to remember like these were real people. These were real people. They were our people. Figuring this out and not getting it all right. And it involved an enormous amount of suffering and violence and pain. And I try to take that sacrifice not just through rose-colored glasses, like to take the sacrifice seriously that people who we would call founding fathers, people who we would call revolutionaries probably lost a part of themselves in pursuit of the freedom that I now have. I don’t ever want to take that for granted.

Beth [00:53:46] And I feel like part of not taking it for granted is being really clear that I don’t want that now. I don’t want neighbor against neighbor. I don’t want violence. Even the people in my Facebook feed who are justifying the shooting of Renee Nicole Goode, I still want to be their neighbors. I still want to work through that with them peacefully. I want us to talk it through. I want us to move forward as a nation. I want to be able to respect some just differences. Even differences that I see as a serious moral breach, and I do, but I want to be able to hold those peacefully because it seems so unnecessary to me for us to be back in that Civil War posture. I think what we have right now is worth preserving. I think even with the damage that’s being done in this administration, repair is available. I believe that our Congress can act and do something. And I believe our elections can express a new will for the people and that’s what I want. Yeah. And I mean,

Sarah [00:54:45] I’m also just trying to take seriously though recognizing and facing that there could be a moment where that ceases to be true. And where bigger actions and sacrifices have to be taken, not necessarily like acts of war or violence against my neighbors, but real protest. I mean, the moment where protest is a risk is here. It’s not when we’re waiting to arrive. Renee Goode was protesting, and she’s dead. So I’m trying to hold all that simultaneously. And also respecting that we’re talking about this in the face of Iranian protests where thousands of people are being shot in the streets by their government. And just holding all of that at the same time is very intense. It’s very intense, but I think it’s worthwhile.

Beth [00:55:59] We always end our episodes by taking a very hard turn to something that’s just light and human. People call it the exhale of the episode. So Outside of Politics today, we’re going to talk about food and specifically about food predictions. Sarah, I read a big piece in the New York Times about how this year we’re leaning away from food maxing and into grandma core. That we’re looking for grounding. I really liked that expression, warm, grounding foods. Your best imaginary grandma might’ve made like sourdough bread, dried apples, sauerkraut, and vegetables she canned herself.

Sarah [00:56:38] I mean, I don’t know how I feel about this whole exercise. I think it’s interesting to hear how food patterns are changing, but predicting food trends seems bananas to me. I know it’s like a good kabillion dollar industry. I know that they must do it, but the stuff that is really interesting to me is how things are changing more than what we think comes next. I read that people are not eating as much pizza. Pizza is deeply comforting, at least to me. So I don’t feel like that fits the grandma core thing.

Beth [00:57:14] I think part of what fits is that I think we’re kind of tired of things that are like not a great value. And the article talks about that too, that restaurants are really focused on a value proposition. They know that people are worried about spending money. And so when they spend it, which they still will, they want to know it’s going to be a great experience. And I think that maybe pizza just got so oversaturated that like a lot of times when I order pizza, it is just kind of meh. It’s not great pizza, it’s not terrible pizza, it’s just meh. And so I could see if you’re pulling back in general, you might say, I’m just going to order less pizza because I don’t want a meh experience that I’m paying for.

Sarah [00:57:52] Well, I mean, that’s the other thing to me that is the big X factor here, is like, yeah, people want better affordability, but also what I’m reading is in the face of GLP-1’s restaurants are just making tiny portions because people don’t want to eat that much, which I’m here for. I’ve never been in love with American’s portion size. It is exhausting. Just feels like a project. You know what I mean? Like you go eat at a Cheesecake Factory and you’re a person who doesn’t particularly like to waste food and to get your money’s worth, what you have opened up for yourself is a project. You have to figure out what to do with all of it.

Beth [00:58:34] Well, I think one of the trends that I was excited about is kind of away from the Cheesecake Factory specifically, because that menu is like a phone book. It’s daunting. They’re serving so many things there. And what experts are predicting is more restaurants with pretty limited menus where they do just a few things really, really well. And I like that a lot. I like a very focused experience where you go in, you know what it’s about, you don’t have to make a ton of decisions, and they’re just good at what they do.

Sarah [00:58:59] Like you need to take your happy butt to Japan because that is how they live and breathe over there. It’s like we do whatever we do in this particular restaurant or this particular place you’re eating, we do the one thing and we do it really, really well. I mean, not like the one thing but yeah, kind of usually just like the thing. And it’s weird because Griffin talks about this all the time. Like when we went to Italy, we were so exhausted with the food choices because they have different pasta specialties a little bit, depending on where you are, but it’s a lot of pasta. And it’s all lot of pistachio cream-filled pastries, which you think you wouldn’t get tired of, but let me tell you, you would. But we never felt that in Japan. We just never felt tired of the food because it was all so different and because you didn’t feel like you were facing the same choices over and over again. You know what I mean? So yeah, I’m into that for sure. I don’t want to go to a place that serves sushi Pizza ever in my whole life, ever. I want to go someplace that makes like The Bear, like they make the one sandwich. And so you go there and you eat that sandwich.

Beth [01:00:11] I also was really excited to read that restaurants are thinking about how loud it is everywhere.

Sarah [01:00:16] I hate that. You know I hate that. How long have I been talking about that?

Beth [01:00:19] Maybe we’d like to have wider experiences.

Sarah [01:00:21] First of all, I’m auditorily sensitive. I carry earplugs everywhere I go. There was a piece in the post about that, like, it will deafen you. It will actually harm your hearing. I think all the time, all the times, Beth, about that little restaurant in Nashville that unfortunately I do not remember the name of that we ate at before we went to see Brandy Carlile at the Ryman, and it was tiny rooms and there was carpet and booths and it was bliss. And I remember thinking like why do we not have restaurants like this anymore? Do you remember that restaurant?

Beth [01:00:55] I do remember that restaurant. I don’t remember the name of it either. I didn’t even remember what we ate, but I remember that it was a lovely experience.

Sarah [01:00:59] I don’t either. I just remember how quiet it was. Oh my god, it was so nice.

Beth [01:01:03] But I also remember a restaurant in Nashville that we went to that pretty much only did fried chicken and it was phenomenal fried chicken because they were focused on what they were doing. They owned the craft.

Sarah [01:01:11] Listen y’all, to the Nashville of it all-- and I don’t think they don’t need a shout out for me because they just got like a Michelin gourmand designation. There is like an outdoor food park thing in Nashville and there’s a place there called SS Guy and they make Korean fried chicken and it’s so good. It’s on the way to the airport from where I live, it’s so good. It is so good and they literally make like three things, but they are perfect and you will eat them a lot.

Beth [01:01:44] I love the markets that bring basically food trucks together. So then you get a lot of choices in one space, but you’re going to the place that just does the one thing really, really well. That’s a trend that I hope continues. The last thing I wanted to point out from this article that I just think needs some discussion is the prediction that cinnamon rolls will be everywhere and move from sweet to savory.

Sarah [01:02:06] I don’t want a savory cinnamon roll. No, thank you. That sounds like garlic bread. What are we even talking about? I don’t know what that means.

Beth [01:02:12] I don’t really know what it means either. I can see it being less sweet. I’m in for less sweet because sometimes you get a cinnamon roll and it is like so overwhelmed by sugary cream cheese. It’s too much.

Sarah [01:02:23] I don’t know. Lisa’s been on a cinnamon roll kick, so I’m kind of cinnamon rolled out. I ate like four different pans and they were very good over Christmas, but I don’t really want any more cinnamon rolls right now. I thought you were going to talk about the texture thing.

Beth [01:02:34] I want to say one thing about the cinnamon rolls before we move to the texture. I made a cinnamon roll cake for New Year’s Day because I had too many things--

Sarah [01:02:42] Is that not just coffee cake? I’m confused.

Beth [01:02:45] No, it was very much like cinnamon rolls. Like you used panko and you got that texture that a good cinnamon roll has in between the layers. And it was baked at bundt cake style, cream cheese frosting. It was so nice about it because I have too many thing that needed to come out of the oven at the same time for brunch. A cinnamon roll needs to come right out of the oven and be served. This cake, you make the day before and it’s actually better after it has spent a day just kind of becoming itself. And it was delicious and I think a really good way to get the joy of a cinnamon roll at a brunch without the last minute pain of it.

Sarah [01:03:22] I just don’t understand this. I feel like cinnamon rolls already were everywhere. Cinnabon is like such a dominant force in the freaking grocery store. First of all, I think Cinnabon is disgusting, but it’s everywhere. Like everything, there’s Cinnabon-flavored cereal, and there’s Cinnabon-flavored yogurt, and there is Cinnabon-flavored popcorn flavoring. I’m not making that up, I bought it for a game. So I don’t under, why do we need more cinnamon? I feel we’ve done it. We did it. I just think I’m going to pass, man.

Beth [01:03:51] So we’re going to talk about texture for a second. They’re thinking that chewy is going to overtake crunchy. And I don’t feel that. I love crunchy.

Sarah [01:03:59] I don’t understand what that means. I mean, I understand what the words mean. I think texture is highly personal and does not shift year to year based on trends. That is my beef.

Beth [01:04:09] Actually, did you kind of love that it’s somebody’s job to write this?

Sarah [01:04:13] That’s so stupid. I think it’s stupid.

Beth [01:04:14] I think it’s amazing.

Sarah [01:04:16] But just because I’ve come to my own really very personal journey on texture. It’s just taken me a long time because I think I really wanted the identity of someone who ate anything and everything, which I mostly am. That it took me a long time to realize I do not enjoy soft food.

Beth [01:04:37] I’ve heard you say this so many times and I really struggle with it because I also feel like don’t you enjoy pasta and soup and ice cream?

Sarah [01:04:46] Okay, first of all, I don’t enjoy ice cream that much. Ice cream will sit in my freezer for months and months and months. I like soup, but I really don’t like soup that doesn’t have anything in it. So I realize the only reason I like tomato soup is to dip my sandwich into it. Like I would never just choose to drink it, which is basically what you’re doing. So I guess not really. What I mean is never ever am I going to just pick up a banana and eat it. No, thank you. It’s like gumming something. No, thank you. And I really learned this in Japan because the Japanese love like a pillowy sand dough. They love like pillowy dessert. And I just don’t want it. I want to chew it. I want to chew my food. I don’t want to gum my food. If you could eat it and you don’t have teeth, I don’t want it . You see what I’m saying?

Beth [01:05:47] I hear you. I hear the words. They don’t compute to me.

Sarah [01:05:51] Do you not have any texture preferences?

Beth [01:05:51] Oh, I love crunch. I mean, like a chip, a big crunchy chip, I’m so into. I mostly like potatoes that are cooked where the edges are real crunchy. I love crunchy, but I also love ice cream and soup and soft bread and a great dumpling. I’m just not ruling anything out over the lack of texture in it.

Sarah [01:06:14] I’m not going to like turn-- if somebody like put chicken and dumplings in front of me, I’m like not going to not eat it. I’m just saying I wouldn’t order it. You know what I’m saying?

Beth [01:06:24] And I love a banana. I’ll be honest with you. I love a banana. I love a smoothie.

Sarah [01:06:32] I mean, it’s different if it’s a drink. Like if you’re drinking, I don’t want to chew my drinks. I don’t do boba. I like to drink. I don’t like to gum. This is what I’m saying. That’s why I don ‘t like peanut butter and jelly sandwiches.

Beth [01:06:48] It’s just funny to me. I feel like this has become very important to you and I just don’t relate to it at all.

Sarah [01:06:53] Well, because it really put together some things that I was like why don’t I like these foods? Like I couldn’t quite tell you. It’s not like I hate all banana flavors. Give me a piece of banana bread. I thought it was maybe I don’t like peanut butter, but that’s not it either. I love peanut butter cups. I’ve even come around on pad Thai as long as the peanut is not too strong. It’s the texture. It really put some pieces together for me.

Beth [01:07:17] But banana bread is also pretty soft.

Sarah [01:07:20] I put walnuts or pecans on my banana bread.

Beth [01:07:24] Would you want it if it didn’t have nuts in it? Would it fall under this rubric where you toss things over their lack of fighting back with you a little bit?

Sarah [01:07:33] I would probably toast just to make myself feel a little bit better. I mean, there is an aspect of cake. I’m not opposed to cake and cake is pretty soft. Okay. So maybe that’s just like a different-- I don’t know why, how I justify that to myself. Actually, cake is not my favorite dessert. My favorite dessert is cookies. You know what cookies have? A lot of chewing involved.

Beth [01:07:57] I’m just going to say another thing you don’t like. You do you on this because it is not for me. But anyway, I’m excited to hear what you all think is coming this year in terms of food trends. Do you think there are food trends? Is this all just silly? I don’t know. I don’t know, maybe it’s silly, but I think it’s very fun. I do love-- I forgot one more thing I wanted to say. I love this idea that we’re going to see more flights moving beyond wine and beer to flights of cream cheese, or flights of sliders, or flights of fruits to pick.

Sarah [01:08:22] You know I don’t like to pick. I hate picking. So a flight just checks every box for me. I want to have one bite of everything on the menu. So perfect. Great. Love it.

Beth [01:08:39] All right, thank you for spending time with us today talking about lots of things that do not matter and then the things that are the most fundamental to our nation. We really appreciate your tolerance for the breadth of topics here. We’ll be back with you for a new episode next Tuesday. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.

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