What Is Happening? Trump’s Health and the CDC

Trump's health, RFK's chaos, and our craving for something real

Donald Trump is going to die. Some day. Somehow. The one thing - and sometimes it feels like the only thing - I know for sure about this man is that he is mortal.

It was a weird moment Saturday morning when the internet decided Donald Trump was already dead. Since the assassination attempts this summer, his mortality has become something we all have been forced to ponder…even he is not immune from such pondering it would seem.

He’s been such a force in American politics for the past decade and so ever present in American culture for my entire life that it is hard to imagine a time when he will not be here. But I am committed to reckoning with that reality. The one thing the chaos of the Trump administration will force you to reckon with is that there are no guarantees. Even the people who seem like institutions themselves retire. The federal bureaucracies that seem eternal can be broken down and sold for parts. As we discuss on today’s show, there is an undercurrent of trust - or at least benign expectation - that so much of our lives is built on. We must all begin to reckon with what happens when the foundations of our federal government are torn out and nothing is built in their place. Because Donald Trump isn’t rebuilding and, even if he was, he’s too old to see to completion.

Topics Discussed

• Rumors Swirl About President Trump’s Health

• Shakeups at the CDC

• Outside of Politics: Slow Tech

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Episode Resources

Pantsuit Politics Resources

• Be sure to follow us on Subtack

What’s Happening with Trump’s Health

• Memorandum From the Physician to the President – The White House

• Why Trump’s Health is the Subject of Ongoing Speculation (Yahoo! News)

• Donald Trump Posting Week-Old Photo Raises Eyebrows Amid Health Speculation (Newsweek)

What’s Happening at the CDC?

• Hijacking the Kennedys (NY Magazine)

• Monarez officially out at CDC after battle with HHS (Politico)

• I Never Understood Our Data-Saturated Life Until a Hurricane Shut It Down (The New York Times)

• CDC Director Susan Monarez confirmed by Senate : Shots - Health News : NPR

• Some MAGA loyalists wary of RFK Jr.'s closest adviser (Axios)

• Sen. Bill Cassidy wants 'oversight' of CDC. Some say he deserves blame for its turmoil. (USA Today)

• In break with current CDC recommendations, leading pediatrics group recommends Covid-19 shots for young children | CNN

• American College of Gynecology Updated Maternal Vaccine Guidelines

• New Mexcico Department of Health Order

• ‘It’s just too much’: CDC employees have faced layoffs, vaccine misinformation and now — violence - (Government Executive)

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:10] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:11] This is Beth Silvers. You're listening to Pantsuit Politics. The overarching theme of this episode is what is happening? What is happening? Over the weekend, rumors about the president's health and wellbeing escalated to the point that much of x.com just believed that he had died and it was very weird. So we're going to process that together today. Also weird, everything that is happening and not happening at the Center for Disease Control. So we're going to talk about what is happening with RFK and staffing and vaccines. And just in general, what do we do when we're staring at the White House thinking what was that? Then Outside of Politics, we're going to talk about digital overwhelm. Who could imagine the connection between these things? And the new way is that we're craving slower things and fewer things and more tangible things in our lives. And we are definitely not alone.

Sarah [00:01:10] If you, in fact, are craving slower things, fewer things, more connected things, we'd like to invite you to join us on Substack. Thanks to the 200 people who joined us over the last month there, you don't even have to be a paid subscriber to receive our show notes, episode transcripts, or our Friday essays. You can find all things Pantsuit Politics on our homepage there, pantsuitpoliticshow.com. If you like what we do here, a free and easy way to help us grow is to follow us on Substack. So we hope that you'll do that today.

Beth [00:01:41] Next up, what is happening with the president's health? Sarah, on Saturday morning, I woke up, I opened x.com just to see what that particular segment of the world was discussing. And I found that almost every single post in my feed was speculating that Donald Trump had died. This had apparently started on Friday night. I cannot trace the full progression from there's nothing on the White House schedule for the weekend to actually we haven't seen or heard from Trump since Tuesday's cabinet meeting, to actually he died on Wednesday and they've been covering it up since then. But that seemed to be the trajectory and it was wild.

Sarah [00:02:29] Well, Griffin came downstairs on Friday night before we were going to watch a family movie. We watched Rudy. Holds up magnificently in case anybody's wondering. And said, "Trump's dead." And we're like, what? He's like, "I'm telling you, I think he's dead. Everybody thinks he's death, he's dead." I'm like, "He is not dead, that's outrageous." But by the time you were texting me about it on Saturday morning, I was like, I don't know, maybe he's dead. Two things, they let it get really far. And also not for nothing, Elon Musk let it get really far on X because we know he will kill an algorithmic trend if he wants to. And he didn't feel like killing this one, which I think is pretty interesting.

Beth [00:03:10] I think that's interesting too. I'm watching it on Saturday and I felt the same way. I said to Chad, "Okay, I'm hearing this. I'm reading it. I do not believe it, but I don't not believe it. I don't know what to believe. And the weirdest thing was the absolute silence from official news sources. You couldn't even get anyone saying, this is happening, it's not true. It was just crickets. And that made it feel weirder. And you could tell that the algorithm was rewarding it, not suppressing it. And so you saw all these people who were like, haha, this is definitely false, but I'm still going to make a joke about it. I'm so going to weigh in on it because I want to get the benefit of the algorithm. I think it was like the most intense period that I've had of realizing, oh, we don't know anymore. There are pictures of him being released and we're questioning whether the pictures are real. What date are the pictures? There's video. And you're going, "Is that real video? Is it edited video? Is it AI? What is happening?" And I thought, I don't know how to do my job anymore because this is a really strange moment.

Sarah [00:04:22] The background to all of this for me is the Joe Biden of it all. And I could feel myself falling to the old mental pattern I had with Joe Biden, which is we know he's old. That's not new news. Trump is 79 years old. He's old, okay? And if I'm not his doctor and I don't have complete information, what am I going to add to this? But then I think that was a mistake with Joe Biden. I think it was important and worthwhile to point out this video went viral. Everybody saw it and made their own conclusions. And whether or not it is reflective of his actual health, something is happening here in our decentralized media environment when something breaks through on this level. And just because you don't have a doctor coming out and saying, "I've seen his medical records, this is what's wrong," or the White House releasing statements doesn't mean it's not relevant and important. I wish that we had covered it more just so we could have all been more aware of what's happening on the other side of the aisle, and I would recommend this exact learning to MAGA.

[00:05:36] Just because you think it's bullshit, which I'm sure they do, it matters. When it breaks through to this level, even if it's primarily on X, even if it’s primarily among people who lean democratic, something is happening here. My Spidey sense went up when they disclosed all on their own something they are not known to do, that he has this "chronic venous insufficiency". Because he had all these bruises on his hands, and they look like IV bruises that old people get. We all know what they look like, that's what they looked like. Why would this be caused by hand shaking, which was the White House's excuse. Oh, this is because he's shaking hands so much. I think everybody went, oh, okay, sure. But I thought they're only disclosing this because they know this is getting away from them, or they know there's something they really don't want to be disclosed, and this is like a way to relieve the pressure. And so all of these things have been bubbling under the surface clearly for a lot of people, not just me.

Beth [00:06:51] I spent a lot of time on x.com on Saturday because we were driving south to meet my mother-in-law for breakfast at Cracker Barrel. Thank you so much. And so I'm scrolling in the car as we're going. And I will say, I saw a number of MAGA influencers who were like what is the deal? They need to be more transparent. They are clearly hiding something. Now, look, a lot going on there. This is an ecosystem that thrives on someone is screwing you over. Someone's not telling you the truth. And so, I think that there probably will be-- and we've seen this with Epstein too-- a short leash for things that feel like they're being hidden. The other thing is, he is 79. And we did just go through this with President Biden. So what I kept thinking about Saturday as I'm not knowing is the White House just needs to say something. We are all primed for this to be a problem. The whole world is primed for this to be a problem. What is happening if you are an actor who wishes the United States chaos and harm, what a field day for you to have an empty schedule from the White House and some segment of the country talking about how the president is dead and they're covering it up. The competence side from the White House was really damaged for me this weekend, too.

Sarah [00:08:10] Yeah, don't let it continue to build. Again, did you not watch what happened with Joe Biden? And there's just enough kindling for a flame here. It's not just the bruising on his hands, which we all recognize. His ankles are swollen and have been. Nicholas sent me a video during the summit in Alaska where did you see how he wove the red carpet? He didn't just walk a straight line. Like he walked in this very weaving pattern. It wasn't really a pattern either. It just kind of looked like, if you sped it up, like he was drunk. He couldn't just walk the straight line of the red carpet. He has been wearing an enormous amount of makeup, both on his face and his hands. And when you talk to medical professionals, which apparently this is a hot, hot topic in the medical professional Facebook groups I've heard from many and many of my friends.

[00:09:00] I just feel like I asked all my doctor's friends and everybody was basically like, "If you're over 70 and you have swelling in your ankles, you have congestive heart failure." Like that's just one plus one equals two. Like this is what's happening. The hands are probably he was getting IVs for treatment from this. They don't want to talk about it. They don't want to say anything. Because if this was a nothing burger, first of all, I think he'd be out there every day because he loves attention. And second of all they would have had a robust response. They would have come out and been like this is so ridiculous. Just like with Biden. I wonder if ultimately we'll end up in the same place and they'll try to do something like the debate to finally put this to bed and all it will do is finally give it the legs it needs.

Beth [00:09:46] Because it doesn't go to bed. Aging is a one-way street and it was with Biden and so it is with Trump. And I think the difference is that you don't have MAGA concerned about his mental competence right now at least.

Sarah [00:10:00] Yeah, that's true.

Beth [00:10:01] And I don't see any reason. I mean, if you think that Donald Trump is mentally incompetent, you already thought that. You thought it 10 years ago, not today. And he does seem to me like himself. When I saw clips of that cabinet meeting, especially the part where he was asked about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce, he made a quick joke and then he was a little bit gracious, which was nice to see from him. But you can tell that he is still with it. I don't have questions that he's materially different than he was when he was elected, which that was the situation with President Biden. Is this a materially-different mind than the mind that we elected? And it's a fair question than we acted like it was. And so I just want to be open here, but I don't want to do this every few months. That's my concern. I don't want to have every few months a question mark about what's going on at the White House and with the president's health. And I'm nervous that that's where we're going to be.

Sarah [00:11:02] Well, because the difference between this and Joe Biden, I'm encouraged that some MAGA influencers are asking questions. But the vibe from the Trump administration is we don't critique dear leader. So you got JD Vance out saying he's in incredibly good health. No one thinks that, dude.

Beth [00:11:25] Incredible energy. Works hard than anyone.

Sarah [00:11:27] Incredible energy, works hard. And guys, at least the Biden administration I think White House had it pretty locked down and there was a lot of intimidation. I do think you got that environment of no critique just because Trump was on the other side. That's what they always used. Like you don't critique him. And I'm sure MAGA is doing the same thing. Don't you dare give the Democrats an opening by critiquing Donald Trump. But I also think it's don't dare critique Donald Trump because he'll make your life miserable and you can't critique your leader. And so I think it's a little bit stronger, just obsequiousness, in the face of what we can all see with our two eyes, which is this dude is old and clearly suffering from some medical complications. I don't think that means he's going to be dead tomorrow, but the manifestations of congestive heart failure are not going to get treated and disappear. They're just going to get worse.

Beth [00:12:28] And he wrote on Truth Social Sunday morning, like, "Never felt better in my life." That's just an unfair response.

Sarah [00:12:36] That does protest too much.

Beth [00:12:38] Yeah, it's an unfair to fair questions. And this White House, you're right, has such a dear leader vibe, has such down is up and up is down, and it all depends on how he feels today. And by the way, you're not only going to be out of the inner circle, but we're going to come after you with every tool in our toolbox. We'll start looking into your mortgage history. We're going to talk more about this on Friday, but the levers of intimidation and shakedown and coerciveness it is like pedal to the metal over there. And so that is part of what I thought about the media being so quiet. Are people just not going to say a word about this because they're afraid they'll get no access or they'll get some kind of punishment if they even entertain the questions?

Sarah [00:13:27] Yeah.

Beth [00:13:28] That leads to a real mess online. That's really, really bad.

Sarah [00:13:32] Yeah, because there was nothing in the Times, nothing in The Post, nothing in Axios, no even mention of the fact that this happened. Like the next day when he was seen and I googled like Trump dead algorithm or whatever, it was random, very small global newspapers. It was nothing of record, really.

Beth [00:13:54] No, the only things I saw were like Newsweek and Yahoo, even acknowledging it. The Daily Beast. Like it was really hard to get any kind of legitimate reporting. And it is a story that this many people were tweeting up. Like, come on.

Sarah [00:14:12] Yeah, no, I totally agree. And I think as much as you don't want to do this every month, I think that might be the case.

Beth [00:14:19] What is happening? Well, we're going to take a quick break and then ask, what is happening at the CDC? Sarah, speaking of what is happening in media, I felt like that was the actual headline for days around the firing of Dr. Susan Monarez. Just on the what is happened front, I watched about 15 videos and saw 15 different pronunciations of her name. I hope that Monarez is close to correct. If you know for sure, if you would email me, I would like to know. But anyway, this is very impressive scientist who was confirmed by the Senate to be the CDC director on July 29th.

Sarah [00:15:07] On party line. So this is not like some easy-peasy confirmation everybody loves her, or she's some progressive hideout that all the Democrats love.

Beth [00:15:20] Well I think that the issue was that she towed the Trump line in her confirmation hearing. Her resume is impressive. She doesn't have an MD, which is unusual for CDC director, but she is a microbiologist, she's an immunologist. She is qualified to do this job, but Democrats were very frustrated during her confirmation hearing because she was asked questions like if the president asked you to break the law, would you do it? And she said, "The president would not ask me to break the law." And that kind of back and forth, the theater, these confirmation hearings have become led to this party line vote. But I think if you ask most people in the quiet of their offices, do you think that she can do this job? They probably would have said, yeah, it's just everything around her is such a mess. And that was true. So July 29th, the CDC is down over 5,000 employees because of layoffs and the fork in the road packages and other departures.

[00:16:19] Eight days into her tenure, there is that shooting at CDC headquarters in Atlanta. So it's tumultuous. And then last Monday morning, according to Politico at 11 a.m., Robert F. Kennedy Jr. and his top aide, Stephanie Spear, who's a very interesting character, if you start going down that rabbit hole, met with her and said, "We feel you're incompetent. We'd like you to resign." And she said, "No, thank you, I will not." And they said, "Okay, well then how about you fire a lot of top leadership? and also make sure that you agree with the recommendations that are going to come out of this advisory committee on immunization practices that we fired everybody and then staffed up with our own people. How about you do that?" And she said, "No, thank you." And then she left and called Bill Cassidy, who is the chair of the Senate Committee on Health Education.

Sarah [00:17:10] And who everyone is waiting to save us from RFK. I don't know why.

Beth [00:17:13] And that made RFK really mad that she got Bill Cassidy involved. He did not like that at all. So she gets dressed down over that. And we're at this place now where the White House has said they have fired her and her lawyers are saying, not really, the president hasn't directly talked to her and the president has to directly fire her and also there's no reason to fire her. And it's a mess.

Sarah [00:17:40] But then Trump does fire her, just in case everybody hasn't been following the story. Then he fully fires her. And then you have the resignation of several top leaders at the CDC. Dr. Deborah Horry, the CDC's chief medical, Dr. Dimitri Daskalakis, the director of National Center for Immune and Respiratory Disease, Dr, Janel Jernigan, director of the National Center for Emerging and Zoonotic Infectious Disease, and Dr. Jennifer Layden, the director of Office of Public Health Data, Surveillance and Technology. So you have a bunch of top leadership saying, he is weaponizing this, we're out, we are resigning. She lawyers up. And, look, here's the thing, it's not even just about the CDC. It's not what's happening in the CDC, it's what's happening in the entire Department of Health and Human Services, which is he's burning it to the ground. I just think, what else can you say at this point? He's tearing it apart limb from limb. It's hard because this is an intimidating topic. The CDC, the FDA, the NIH, these are not perfect institutions. They are overly bureaucratic. They are opaque. This is now working against them, I think, in a really big way because people don't understand what they do. They don't know the importance of this leadership.

[00:19:00] And even I think something that feels like such a big deal because it rightfully is the politicization of the immune schedule to most people, my husband and I are talking about this weekend, it's like 20% of people got the booster. This is not a huge proportion of Americans that are going to be affected. I am one of them. I would like to get a COVID booster before I leave the country twice, but it's not a big proportion of Americans. I think people don't understand the complexity of this vaccine committee. I think people perceive so much of the CDC and the NIH and the FDA as politicized already. So when somebody starts waving a red flag and saying he's like weaponizing it for politics, we were like, what's the difference? And it's really, really hard. I think it's hard to prove a negative. It's hard to argue a negative while they're canceling all this research funding. We're going to miss out on stuff. People don't know what they're missing out on. So it's like this black box that has a raging and fire inside that nobody truly understands what's at risk. Meanwhile, the poor people at the CDC are literally getting fired upon with actual bullets, much less just being laid off and treated like dirt. And it's a mess.

Beth [00:20:20] I think all that distrust that you named is also wrapped up in the fact that there's a relationship between government agencies and pharmaceutical companies, which people also are conditioned to distrust and think the worst of and assume terrible motives on the part of. So the president in the midst of all this post this on Truth Social. "It is very important that the drug companies justify the success of their various COVID drugs. Many people think they are a miracle that saved millions of lives. Others disagree. With CDC being ripped apart over this question, I want the answer and I want it now. I have been shown information from Pfizer and others that is extraordinary, but they never seem to show those results to the public, why not? They go off to the next hunt and let everyone rip themselves apart, including Bobby Kennedy Jr. and CDC, trying to figure out the success or failure of the drug company's COVID work. They show me great numbers and results, but they don't seem to be showing them to many others. I want them to show them now to CDC and the public and clear up this mess one way or another. I hope Operation Warp Speed was as brilliant as many say it was. If not, we all want to know about it and why. Thank you for your attention to this very important matter." President D.J.T.

Sarah [00:21:42] It was brilliant. Why does he do that? Why is he writing these memos to the American public? This is the stupidest thing. Why does he act like these things are beyond his control? He has two modes. I don't know. Who knows? And I know everything. I'm right about everything. Do everything I say. And it is so chaotic and jarring to be toggling between these two modes all the damn time. It's insane. Why do you need him to show it to the public or RFK? They showed it to you. Do you believe it? Isn't that good enough? I don't understand.

Beth [00:22:17] Also, so much of this is public record. The problem it's not getting transmitted in a form that people understand. And now people don't want to understand it anymore. They're tired of talking about all of this. Everybody's tired of taking about COVID, period. So what do we do? And I think what's interesting about this post, because you know that Trump doesn't really care one way or another about these vaccines; I think what Trump cares about is how do I keep a coalition together that can win midterm elections? I don't really know how much he cares about that, but I think he cares a little bit. And I feel like what he understands with RFK is that if someone is powerful enough to be an asset to him politically, they are also powerful enough to be a threat to him, politically. And I think he can't decide how he feels about Kennedy.

[00:23:08] Because Kennedy also has people constantly chirping to the press that he wants to run for president next. That he knows he has his own movement. So there are all these things that get infused into a question, which is fine. We are meant to have spheres for politics. The problem is those spheres are not supposed to go all the way into vaccine advisory committees. So you have Trump out there saying, I don't know, Pfizer should really show their stuff to CDC so we can all kind of calm down. And then you have Senator Cassidy, the chair of the Senate committee that is responsible for oversight saying if they go ahead and have this immunization committee meet on September 18th as they are scheduled to do, you should disregard any recommendations for them as lacking legitimacy because such serious questions have been raised about the current turmoil.

Sarah [00:24:02] Well, you also have several associations, like I think the National Academy of Pediatrics, the National Obstetrics and Gynecological Association, whatever their official name is, going out and saying, we're going to get in front of you and we're going to officially recommend that people get this shot.

Beth [00:24:19] The state of New Mexico has ordered a ton of COVID vaccine boosters and put out guidance that they want people to get vaccinated and they're trying to get in front of the federal government on this. It is chaotic out there.

Sarah [00:24:34] Okay, several things. First, as I currently understand it, and this is something that we can easily count, this is not complex data analysis. Before the vaccines, there was not a grand difference between mitigation efforts between blue states and red states, that the death toll was pretty similar before the vaccines. Is that as you understand it? The difference approach to distancing, all of that is pretty similar, okay? Post-vaccine, different story. Red states have a much higher death toll because they have a more lower vaccination rate. Is that how you understand that?

Beth [00:25:29] Yes, it is.

Sarah [00:25:30] Pretty basic counting going on here. Now, that's the last time I'm going to say pretty basic. Because then you get into the complicating factor of the way we communicated about these vaccines. And, look, I was part of the problem. Do you remember how I thought these vaccines were going to prevent you from getting COVID forever? I was passionate. I was like this is ridiculous. This is going to fix it. And there was a lot of communication about that, right? Like this is going to fix it. So I think this is one huge complicating thing that we have not handled, dealt with, and RFK is certainly not the person to walk us through this complex post-pandemic analysis. Then you have just this dude, and this dude is crazy. I don't know how to say it any nicer. Did you read the New York magazine profile of the Kennedy family? It was wild.

Beth [00:26:15] I did not.

Sarah [00:26:16] It was wild. First and foremost, he does not have the expertise that was abundantly clear in his confirmation hearings. There were questions, basic questions he could not answer. I can't decide if he's just a true believer about this vaccine stuff, if he's in the corruption angle, the way he is all tied up and so many of these people are tied up making money off preying on people's fears about vaccines, about toxins, about food dyes, all of that. So you have the hem of it all. You have the COVID of it all, you have the hem it all, which is a mess. You have these bureaucracies that are problematic. No one, including people who work at the CDC, at the FDA, at the NIH, is going to argue that these are stellar examples of government efficiency, public health communication, or scientific efficiency. Like there's problems there, have been. Hell, half of Abundance, the Ezra Klein, Derek Thompson polemic that all progressives love is about the problems within our research community and what's going on.

[00:27:31] So you have that, then you have like legitimate concerns, I think, from the American people and complete dissatisfaction with our healthcare industry, with pharmaceuticals, with our diets, with our ultra processed foods, with chronic illness, with chronic illness among children. So it feels like a tornado with all of this like in this just giant swirling mass. I do feel like he's basically standing in the eye of the tornado. I think Trump is trying to play the politics of it all, because I think Americans are like down for with a lot of what he has to say about health. They're not sure about the vaccines, but they don't know enough. It is a mess. It is a giant mess that I can barely see my hand in front of my face for, much less just the average person passively taking in news.

Beth [00:28:23] I think I look at RFK and feel like he is doing this job the way that I sing with the radio. There are a few phrases that I got, but I don't know the song. And I feel like he names some things that people really care about and there are some things that really break through you, but he doesn't know the song. I remember in his confirmation hearing he struggled with the difference between Medicare and Medicaid. And I get that people want outsiders in government, but there's a level of government where you really need to know the government, as it exists today, if you're going to do better. I think there are lots of places in society where we're struggling with this question of whether anything can be reformed. Can you reform an existing thing or do you have to tear down the thing and build a new thing better? I think there are lots and lots of places where we're asking that question. Policing is one of them. These government bureaucracies is another. Like so many areas, public schools, you look around and you see people saying, "I don't believe this thing can be reformed. So I just want to build something totally new outside it and tear this thing down.".

[00:29:29] I personally believe things can be reformed. I think either way, you need to understand the thing you're dealing with as it exists well enough to know the consequences of tearing it down. I understand looking at organizations that you think are too bureaucratic and deciding, well, we need new leadership here at every level. I also understand in some fields, there are not just tons of applicants waiting outside who would come in and do it the way you want, who also have the experience and expertise to do the job and that is what makes me so sick about this. When you think about the things that this administration is doing that can be mitigated or undone or reversed by future administrations, getting back all of this expertise that is walking out the door right now doesn't strike me as one of them. The people who want to do these jobs study for a long time to do these jobs. And these are the jobs. Now they'll go out and they'll find other things. They'll probably make a hell of a lot more money and be treated a lot better than they have been, at least over the last year. But, man, who is going to do this work?

[00:30:44] I am so concerned that while he is talking about food dyes and autism, we are going to have some kind of biosecurity event, some kind of new pandemic, something that really gets away from us because we're so distracted. I share people's concerns about our overall health and wellbeing. I question the federal government's role in that exercise. But I think in terms of prioritization, that biosecurity layer is the top one, especially after what we just went through with COVID. And so to be in this cycle where a Senator tells us that the recommendations of an official body should be disregarded because their legitimacy is in question and meanwhile states and medical associations are issuing their own guidance, it's terrible. And the conversation I just had with my primary care physician about what vaccines are going to be available this fall and where and when we should get them, reflects all of that. It is rolling downhill really, really fast with this one.

Sarah [00:31:48] There's a part of me that thinks we are coming to realize that in so many ways that blip of the 20th century where you had this moment in expertise where people told you what to do and you did it and that was it and Walter Cronkite came on the news at the end of the day and told you what happened and that is it, like it is good and truly over. And it was really never true in so many forms of particularly our healthcare industry with pharmaceuticals, even with vaccines to a certain extent, that this presentation of complete knowledge was real. We have never been good at communicating like this is what we know now. We think in so many levels that like if we communicate, no, this is all you need to know, people won't get confused, people won't be overwhelmed, people will take the recommendation. I get all that, but we have hit the end of the road. We have hit the end the road on just trust us and take this little bit of information we want to give you. And he's exploiting that, obviously. And in some ways, he is his own political movement.

[00:32:57] In some ways he's this both powerful and dangerous political ally. And in some way they are so closely aligned. It's the same song, different verse. I'm going to tear down the power of the federal government by fundamentally weakening the federal workforce, by emptying out all these processes and expertise and inspector generals and labor relations boards. Like I'm going to fire people. I'm going to treat the people of the federal government terribly. And I'm to fundamentally weaken so much of the power of the federal government while also exercising as much power as humanly possible. It is the entire paradox of the Trump administration, which is I'm exerting the power of the Federal Government while fundamentally undercutting it. And I think what you're naming is that undercutting is always borrowing from the future. He's always borrowing from the future through this work of basically abusing the federal workforce. I don't know what else to call it at this point. Like harassing, threatening, abusing the federal work force and nobody's exempt. Fed governors all the way down to brand new hires at the national park service. Like everybody's going to feel the brunt of this. And it's all an exercise of the performance of power right now.

[00:34:35] I think this is reflective in what happened over the weekend with India. We all remember, I do anyway, Howdy Modi, big old arena full of a love fest between Modi and Trump in Houston, and then Namaste Trump, arena full of Indians in when the Trump family went to India with Mody love fest for the cameras. But it was because there's no real strategy, because there is no real policy prioritization, because there was no real expertise, because you fired everybody. Then the actual work that's been going on for decades of strengthening the United States relationship with India to undercut China and Russia. We were borrowing from the future. We were holding these big flashy performances right now while probably treating the actual diplomatic-- well, we know we we've been treating the State Department and probably the experts on India like shit from all the way back with Rex Tillerson, right? So we know that's the case.

[00:35:36] So we're undercutting it, we're borrowing it from the future, we're barring it from, so where are we now? The relationship is completely falling apart. He's out there holding hands with Putin and Xi Jinping and nobody cares or nobody's going back and being like, oh, but we really had Howdy Modi and Namaste Trump and didn't that hold it all up? No, because they're always borrowing from the feature and it's going to run out of road. It's going to run out of road. You can't build anything on the basis of the federal government while simultaneously setting whatever you could get your dirty little paws on, on fire.

Beth [00:36:13] That's a really good example because it's another place where the average person does not know or care much about what the actual facts are. The strategic relationship between the United States and India is just not something that you're running around thinking about in your daily life. You want to be able to trust that the people in charge have it. And I think you want to able to be trust that the people who sit on the advisory committee on immunization practices are qualified to be there, and have the right motives in mind and are going to do the right things. And this is the question, how do you trust an administration that ran on distrust as the platform? And can we have a government that we trust at all in an era where people aren't following things very closely and know just enough to have a sense that they're not being told everything and that things are kind of spiraling out of our grasp. I thought about this this morning in connection with the earthquake in Afghanistan. I read just a really short blurb about the aid that is needed in Afghanistan right now because it was a devastating earthquake. And it listed what the United Kingdom is doing in some other countries and ended by saying the United States State Department has sent its heartfelt condolences.

Sarah [00:37:33] [Gasps}

Beth [00:37:36] That was my reaction too. Now, if you're walking around in the street and you say to people, should we help Afghanistan rebuild after this devastating earthquake? I don't know what people would say.

Sarah [00:37:49] Most people are going to say my prices are too high and I don't want the government spending money on helping Afghanistan.

Beth [00:37:54] I think that's probably correct. How do you have a government, a democratically elected and accountable government, that says sometimes most people are wrong because they want to take from the future and the future depends on us being a partner to other countries in the world, being at the table where decisions are being made. I am really concerned that we are ungovernable at this point in the United States because so much has been built on distrust. And because I look at this White House-- and that's the theme of this episode, I look this White house and I just don't trust what they're telling us or what they are doing or why they're doing it. And that is a terrible, terrible state to be in.

Sarah [00:38:48] Well, I think what you named though is important. It's almost like we are encountering level tiers of distrust in the institutions. The forward-facing, easily understandable, the parts we interacted with, people were unhappy with. There was a lot of distrust. There was lot of frustration with all of our institutions. And now we're reaching tier two, where the stuff that was keeping the trains running, that you didn't know about, that you actually-- because you hear that trust, like you can hear people's frustration of like but I thought everything like that was going to keep working for me. There's just so many levels of government and functioning that we take for granted, that we just don't even think about. And we have trust because we've never known any different that they're going to function like that. You definitely see it around natural disasters, right? There's a great piece in the New York Times about how when you lose, when you're cut off the way parts of North Carolina were from that flooding, it's like you start with word of mouth and then you build up to like letters and it goes faster than human history but you're building back from scratch and you realize how much you take for granted.

[00:40:09] And I think the Trump administration, particularly Health and Human Services, it's going to be a process of understanding how much we took for granted. And how much we just don't see the functioning of government and they have taken a torch to so much. And I'm not sure the COVID boosters will be one of them. I don't know a lot of people that get COVID boasters. I keep thinking about Nicholas's 20% number. That's just not a high number. And the COVID flare ups, they're not non-existent, but they're not as bad as they used to be. So I don't know if that's going to be it. But I do think there could be an outbreak of food safety with the FDA. I think there can be another viral outbreak. We had a measles outbreak. It's not like we have no examples since he's been in this office, since RFK has been in his office of something that we took for granted, that there was no measles. And now there are measles.

[00:41:13] And so I don't know. I just know that it feels like they're pushing this beast that they are simultaneously overworking, dismantling, whatever the case may be. And you can just feel the pieces falling off. I don't know if they can feel the piece is falling off. I don't know if the see the conflict between you want this exercise of power and you are dismantling the thing that gives you said power. I mean, the power is supposed to come from us and he won. So I guess he feels like he has the power, but the processes are just you can just feel the strain. You can feel it in the court system. You can feel it in all these administrative agencies. You can fill it in state governments. Everybody's feeling it in their pocketbook. There's just enormous strain.

Beth [00:42:10] Yet I don't know with that 20% number how that translates politically because it reminds me of a conversation I had with my pastor. We were talking about these events that we've been having and how hard it is to get people to come to these events. So people don't want to come, but they do want the events to happen. They do want to know that someone is doing that because it's important and it makes us feel good. And so it's like I don't want to go, but I want it to be there. And I have a feeling that people might have that vibe about the boosters. I don't want to get one, but I want them to be available for the people who do want to get one. I want my mom to get one. I want my uncle to get. I want everybody who works at the nursing home to get one. So I just don't know how this is going to roll out, but I think it's a vulnerability for them. I think that strain and the way that you perceive it almost everywhere right now is a vulnerability that is probably going to get a lot more intense next year than we even feel right now.

Sarah [00:43:13] Well, and I do think he cares about vaccines. And the only reason I think he care is, first of all, his ass is definitely getting that booster. That's the first thing. Second of all, I do you think he has learned or at least taken in that vaccines are a vulnerability for him. I think hearing that crowd boo the way he would like brag around Operation Warp Speed or tell people to get the vaccine and he would get booed in his own crowd who he could shoot somebody in the middle of Times Square and they wouldn't care, would boo him. I got to believe that lives rent-free in his head. I think he understands that I personally get vaccines and don't care but they very much do. And I think but also you can feel the conflict in the statement of like he wants to take credit for Operation Warps Speed. He wants to count this as a success. He very much wants credit for that. But he also knows that it's like a real struggle with his base when it comes to vaccines. And so I think you can feel him trying to play all sides.

Beth [00:44:22] Very much like abortion he understands that a significant part of his coalition are extremists about abortion and he also understands that that's not enough people to get you over the finish line and that's very much not where most people are. And so I do think he's doing a similar dance on this. I'm certain this is not the last time we will be talking about what's going on at Health and Human Services or strain that this administration is creating or the weirdness of just not really understanding what's doing on because of all that strain. I know that many of you have experience in public health, have worked at the CDC and other agencies. We would love to hear from you and get your perspective on what's been happening. You can always email us at Hello@Pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. Okay, Sarah, we always end our show with an exhale, something Outside of Politics, and you were telling me before we started recording that on a recent trip, your Gen Z cousin brought a point and shoot camera to take pictures. I would love to hear more about that.

Sarah [00:45:33] Well, she's a millennial. She's a baby millennial. I'm like the oldest millennial and she's like the youngest millennial, my cousin Taylor. She brought the camp snap. It's like a digital point and shoot, but there's no screen. You kind of have to take them outside. You don't have enough light. It's not like a digital camera. I don't really understand it, honestly. You can take like 500 pictures on a charge. It's reusable and rechargeable, but it gives you that sort of analog feel of a point-and-shoot camera. I've been really wanting to get back to it, to a point-and-shoot for a while, but man, the pictures that iPhone takes is so good. But I have noticed that I am taking significantly less photos. I think there's an interesting movement around photography to just take less. They don't have to be perfect. We're not trying to capture every second. We've definitely reached peak. Everybody's filming every second of dumb stuff, concerts, kids recitals. You're never going to watch that, guys. Ever, never, never. So I feel it there. I feel in so many areas. Listen, a radical act, we canceled our Amazon Prime. We don't have it anymore. And it's been great.

Beth [00:46:47] I don't take many pictures anymore either. I mostly feel myself thinking, oh, I better take a picture of this or I better record this for relatives who are not nearby. Mostly for my parents when the girls are doing things, I think, oh, I better take a picture. But my camera roll is almost all screenshots of things that I'm trying to save for work. I'm just tired of it. I'm tired of looking at it. I'm tired of looking at other people's heads. I really lost my mind this weekend in a way that I probably should apologize for. But I took Jane shopping for a homecoming dress and she spent most of the time we were gone on her phone. And it drove me crazy to the point where I said, "Is this what you want to do today? You want me to drive you here to shop for these dresses and you'd be on your phone the whole time?" I was really, really mad.

[00:47:38] And I feel myself getting mad more often. Like out to dinner and somebody's on the phone, it makes me mad. I want it to stop. I'm at it myself. I'm just tired of it all over the place. And so I'm kind of happy to see places where there is trendiness and pushing back. Now I recognize that a lot of it is still just more products. So Taylor Swift is releasing The Life of a Showgirl on vinyl. And we've had like all of these countdown clocks to a new vinyl edition and also CDs and cassettes. And there's a part of me that's like I don't want more stuff. That's not the answer to what I'm looking for, but I do understand wanting things that you can hold in your hand and wanting things that feel like pieces of art. Like I get with those vinyl that the covers are neat. I miss the inside of CDs and all the notes and all of the lyrics and unfolding it and spending time with the art in that way. So I don't know what the answers are. I just know that I am getting crankier by the day about the phones.

Sarah [00:48:41] Yeah. I'm really trying to think, is this a digital tool that's making my life better or worse? And like with the Amazon Prime, it was introducing convenience, but it was not making my life better. Often I was buying clothes I did not need. I have stuck to my fast fashion resolution. I have not purchased any fast fashion from Walmart, Target, Amazon, Old Navy for myself this year. And it's felt really good. I don't miss it. And my husband and I have talked about how often I was going to get on Amazon to buy something that I need quickly and easily and then I'm like, oh wait. It's just like the speed bump. I think we're all looking for a little speed bumps, right? I think we thought we wanted tech to take every speed bump away. And then you're like, you know what? The speed bumps weren't all bad. And Amazon Prime was definitely just like the removal of speed bumps in a real way that just was bad. It was bad. For me, I was spending way too much money. It was just so easy. You cannot still get free shipping a lot of the time, but also sometimes I'm like if I don't want to pay shipping, how badly do I need it? Can I pick it up at the store?

[00:49:53] I think about the interactions I miss like being in a store, hunting something down. Again, I think we just thought we wanted ease, that we wanted the ease of so much. And then you realize like, no, I don't want the ease. I listen to less music than I used to, even though it's easier to listen to music than ever before. But there's something about choosing it. Here's a perfect example. When we removed cable back in 2011, and started transitioning more and more to streaming, I watched significantly less TV. Now that's not a bad thing, I guess, but it was just like the ease of all this choice makes me just go, no thank you. I don't want to do it. I don't want the ease of all this convenience of all these stuff all the time. And it's not even just like physical stuff coming through my door on Amazon. Because I think that's the other thing. It's like you think it's convenience, but just the processing, getting rid of the plastic, popping all the little plastic things, taking the box down, figuring out to find a new place for this thing you thought you had to have because you saw it on Instagram and then you bought it on Amazon so easily. It's always you're never solving a problem; you're just creating a different one. And maybe it's an easier problem, perhaps. But just realizing all that input it has to go somewhere, either digital or physical or decision-making. Like it exists. It creates more in your life, even if you feel like you're subtracting.

Beth [00:51:33] Yeah, we still have Amazon Prime, and I do like some of the subscribe and saves for things that we just use all the time. So I'm not a purist about any of this. I think we're all just kind of saying like, what part of my life is really bugging me right now? And how can I address what's really bugging me? And for a while with me, it was my tendency to feel like I was not able to be in a place because I was so busy trying to take pictures and maybe post it on Instagram and then respond to all the comments that came through when I posted something on Instagram. I just don't anymore. And I don't miss that at all. There's nothing about that that I miss. I think that it's just a search for me right now of eliminating digital invasive species. That's what I feel like I've been contending with. Just things that became part of my life without me deciding that I wanted them to be, and making room for the things that I really do want to be in my life.

[00:52:38] And kind of pushing back against that sentiment that we were talking about with vaccines, I don't want to be a person who says, "I want this to exist, but I don't want to be part of it." You know what I mean? I want to be all in on things. And I think being all in requires making a lot of space. One of the surprises and gifts of my lifetime is how many of you are all-in on Pantsuit Politics. I'm so grateful for all of the messages that we receive after our shows. Every email that you send to us, we read and we care about, and it means a lot to us. So we hope that you'll continue to stay in touch. We read every comment on Substack. We read everything that goes in our chat because we are all-in with you. And so thank you for being here. We are going to be back with you on Friday talking about the march of authoritarianism and where we think we are in that march. Until then, we hope you have the best week available to you.