I just started reading the NYT Ross Douthat interview and after about 5 minutes already have to take a break for some deep breaths.
It strikes me as interesting that there are women making this argument against OTHER WOMEN having power/influence in the workplace, while presumably they, the women making this argument, are still welcome in the space because they’re working hard to keep other women out. I’m curious why they are in that space at all? If they think women shouldn’t be there? 🤣 The irony is intense.
Ok I finally got to the end of this painful conversation. Y’all, when asked, one of the women (Helen) could not/would not give examples of feminine virtue. She gave examples of male vice and virtue, and female vice (all of which felt like a freshman psych student’s responses). But she could find no reply to a question about what virtues she sees women as bringing to the table.
This was so telling to me! She’s fallen into the either/or trap that so many “conservative” thinkers do about women in the workplace, and it’s incredibly sad to me that as a woman she could not find any good things to say about women.
I also have 3 sons and as such, am really sensitive to damaging narratives that are perpetuated in our culture. My main pet peeve is the "helpless man" narrative... like commercials where an 8yr old girl is explaining something to her grown-ass father (GROSS). Or grown men being portrayed as another child for their wives to take care of who retreat to their man caves to drink about it - King of Queens, the Simpsons, Family Guy, Everybody Loves Raymond... it's not funny to me, and it's insulting to men. Thankfully, it has gotten better over the years. Let the men be intelligent, capable, helpful, complex, emotional human beings. And for the love of God, please let them be involved fathers. Just like in real life. I can't imagine popular shows dedicated to wives/mothers constantly struggling to lift things or fix things around the house and then sitting in a sewing circle to complain about their husbands. Boring! I don't understand why the helpless man narrative took off and stayed so damned long. Shout out to Ted Lasso for being a show we can watch again and again!!
I went to college in my 30's, already had my 3 sons, and was one of the only nontraditional students there. Toxic feminism was rampant in 2018 (ex: the belief that all sports should be outlawed because they perpetuate violence). Toxic femininity means no boundaries and no consequences, which leads to terrible foreign policy and rude codependent kids. I had a lot of arguments in class about toxic masculinity not being the same as shitting on all things coded masculine. I understand the pendulum swing to hate all things masculine after the repression of all things feminine, and it's time to let it balance out. The judgment towards anyone who wanted to stay in "traditional roles" was palpable, and that is part of what fueled the snap-back with conservatives. Both sides are wrong because they take it too damn far. It's not men or women who are the problem, it's our culture applying moral hierarchy or unequal value to "male" or "female" contributions to a healthy, functioning society instead of valuing both equally.
I teach my kids that everyone needs different things to feel balanced. Some of us swing more feminine, some more masculine, and it doesn't necessarily go with your biological sex... and it can change from day to day. Point is we ALL need BOTH the yin and yang energies and should be allowed to find that balance within ourselves and our societies. Decoupling those energies from traditional gender roles and norms is something the younger generations are doing with ease, and without our permission.
I have heard your talking through your shift in perspective (not just “men are the problem”) in short segments on the podcast, so its great to read this longer essay where it’s all coming together. I am also interested in how we can talk about bringing the best from everyone to our institutions… not just blaming men. On one hand, so many frustrations get blamed on “it’s the patriarchy” which is true and accurate in many cases. However, that starts to sound like “it’s the men” in less nuanced conversations. And men are an important part of the solution… and WANT to be part of the solution.
The righteous mind definitely challenged me and my thinking. Glad to know I’m not alone. Also Rep Sarah McBride seems like an amazing person and a phenomenal representative. I’m so glad you are going to have her on. Can’t wait to hear your interview with her.
Interesting to hear her thesis. I wonder if you might consider inviting Alison Armstrong on one of your podcasts. I have always found her perspective on how the workplace affects male and female roles and how women and men think differently. The one I was most struck by was how women as harvesters notice what is around them differently than men in the workplace who are focused on the 'hunt', and how that translates into relationships. https://www.alisonarmstrong.com/
I think men who want to be in control are often the ones rewarded with control. And that desire and its consequences are the broken thing. In other words, Western civilization is a corrupt, sexist, racist, colonial project not BECAUSE men were in charge, but because specific men were in charge. Unfortunately, I don't see enough examples of men policing each other to keep this from happening. I don't think institutions run by men are bad per se, but they are incomplete and definitely not best for everyone.
I am not sure that western civilization is unique in anything you mention and if we are talking about specific men making specific decisions how are we supposed to think about the few cases women were in charge? This seems particularly relevant when viewing the west as a colonial project, where Queen Isabella was a prominent figure in the colonial era.
Ah yes, the few women who have been in charge definitely outweigh the countless men who have been in charge for millennia. [the discussion was about Western Civilization]
I don’t disagree that we have a lack of data points on women in political leadership act. However, if your point is that individuals that are male led to a racist, sexist, colonial project what is separating from just being individuals that are human?
Isbella is interesting because she is a woman, who made statements against the mistreatment of indigenous people and yet she sponsored Columbus (and others) at a time she may have been the most powerful individual west of the Ottoman Empire.
We do have more data points on how women lead modern organizations and maybe there are some insights we can pull from there?
I think what we want to avoid is stereotyping so that Women are on a pedestal or overstating the difference in gender. When we are talking about group behavior in a random distribution of people we shouldn’t expect particularly gendered behavior, because most people are close to the middle.
you might see more gendered behavior is certain groups where self-selection and word view align with “gendered” traits. Ex: Lawyers in general are risk averse and have low agreeableness since a large part of the job is avoiding risks and disagreements. So it is attracting men and women who fit both. Whereas Teaching elementary students requires more agreeableness and risk aversion. So you are going to see elementary teachers as a group be more risk averse and agreeable. You can add different world views on this and get different behavior. EX teacher unions fighting return to in person, while law firms are launching return to office campaigns.
I appreciate the nuance, Sarah. And I agree that men are not "the problem." What I would add to your discussion is that the systems for rule & order that have dominated life in many (most?) parts of the world for centuries (maybe always) were created by & for powerful, privileged men. These systems are hierarchical so that only a few (men) control politics & economics for everyone else, which results in a world that is competitive & adversarial, where force is equated with power, & where fear runs rampant. I would further argue that the American experiment has included the slow (often too slow) but steady dismantling of the foundations of such systems. From rejecting kings, to ending slavery, to granting women the right to vote, to civil rights, to #metoo, to LGBTQ rights, we continue to reject the idea that a few, privileged men have some right to exercise their understanding of power over the rest of us. Anyone who believes that the world should be ordered thusly is horrified & terrified by what's happening (& women can be among those who so believe) & has seemingly joined forces to try & stop it. Anyone who does not believe that the world should be thus know that, as Kamala said, we are not going back (& men are among those who so believe). When anyone calls this dismantling of hierarchy the "feminization" of the culture & that's a bad thing, they're actually saying that women should return to their "place" in a hierarchical structure. No. Just no.
Thank you for this Sarah. Whenever I try to have a nuanced conversation about this with my friends on the left, it often leads to a lot of group think and man shaming and me playing devil’s advocate. Do especially white cis men continue to benefit more from the patriarchal society that was built before them by other white cis men? Yes. Should they then be punished by us for that fact? Harder question to answer. And I feel like until we objectively acknowledge that the addition of more women to the workforce has made getting work (or education) harder for men without just saying, “too bad,” we’re going to continue to hemorrhage votes to the party welcoming men’s grievances with open arms. Until we acknowledge there is a problem, we can’t begin to generate our own solution to it, which I of course do not believe is women need to lower their standards and become trad wives. But I do worry about the messages young boys are getting as early as elementary school. In the 90s I felt the message was that boys/girls should have equal opportunity. But today’s message seems to be get out our way guys, we can do it better, and your sole responsibility to is to help us get to the top. And again, it’s not that I think we have actually achieved equality, but our messaging is harming us from reaching this goal.
We live at a time when women’s voices are more available to listen to than ever (remember how women used to have to use masculine pen names to get published?) so it seems natural that culture would be influenced in that direction. Plus, who gets to decide what is “too feminine,” or what that even means? And you rightly observe that somehow anger doesn’t count as an emotion in conservatives’ argument, as the range of emotions “allowed” in manly men has shrunk and shrunk down to one. No wonder young men are having a hard time coping.
WOMEN OF THE WORLD! TIME TO REVOLT! This crap vomited out by Hegseth, is just that..CRAP! I CHALLENGE THE FORMER MILITARY WOMEN, ESP THE ONES HE FIRED, TO CHALLENGE HEGGY TO A COMPETITION INCLUDING ALL PHYSICAL & MENTAL MILITARY MONUEVERS! LET'S SEE HOW HE DOES! ALSO IT SHOULD BE TELEVISED LIVE EVERYWHERE, BECAUSE WE KNOW HE LOVES THE CAMERAS!(IF YOU AGREE PLEASE LIKE & SHARE!)
I just started reading the NYT Ross Douthat interview and after about 5 minutes already have to take a break for some deep breaths.
It strikes me as interesting that there are women making this argument against OTHER WOMEN having power/influence in the workplace, while presumably they, the women making this argument, are still welcome in the space because they’re working hard to keep other women out. I’m curious why they are in that space at all? If they think women shouldn’t be there? 🤣 The irony is intense.
Ok I finally got to the end of this painful conversation. Y’all, when asked, one of the women (Helen) could not/would not give examples of feminine virtue. She gave examples of male vice and virtue, and female vice (all of which felt like a freshman psych student’s responses). But she could find no reply to a question about what virtues she sees women as bringing to the table.
This was so telling to me! She’s fallen into the either/or trap that so many “conservative” thinkers do about women in the workplace, and it’s incredibly sad to me that as a woman she could not find any good things to say about women.
This was great, Sarah.
I also have 3 sons and as such, am really sensitive to damaging narratives that are perpetuated in our culture. My main pet peeve is the "helpless man" narrative... like commercials where an 8yr old girl is explaining something to her grown-ass father (GROSS). Or grown men being portrayed as another child for their wives to take care of who retreat to their man caves to drink about it - King of Queens, the Simpsons, Family Guy, Everybody Loves Raymond... it's not funny to me, and it's insulting to men. Thankfully, it has gotten better over the years. Let the men be intelligent, capable, helpful, complex, emotional human beings. And for the love of God, please let them be involved fathers. Just like in real life. I can't imagine popular shows dedicated to wives/mothers constantly struggling to lift things or fix things around the house and then sitting in a sewing circle to complain about their husbands. Boring! I don't understand why the helpless man narrative took off and stayed so damned long. Shout out to Ted Lasso for being a show we can watch again and again!!
I went to college in my 30's, already had my 3 sons, and was one of the only nontraditional students there. Toxic feminism was rampant in 2018 (ex: the belief that all sports should be outlawed because they perpetuate violence). Toxic femininity means no boundaries and no consequences, which leads to terrible foreign policy and rude codependent kids. I had a lot of arguments in class about toxic masculinity not being the same as shitting on all things coded masculine. I understand the pendulum swing to hate all things masculine after the repression of all things feminine, and it's time to let it balance out. The judgment towards anyone who wanted to stay in "traditional roles" was palpable, and that is part of what fueled the snap-back with conservatives. Both sides are wrong because they take it too damn far. It's not men or women who are the problem, it's our culture applying moral hierarchy or unequal value to "male" or "female" contributions to a healthy, functioning society instead of valuing both equally.
I teach my kids that everyone needs different things to feel balanced. Some of us swing more feminine, some more masculine, and it doesn't necessarily go with your biological sex... and it can change from day to day. Point is we ALL need BOTH the yin and yang energies and should be allowed to find that balance within ourselves and our societies. Decoupling those energies from traditional gender roles and norms is something the younger generations are doing with ease, and without our permission.
I have heard your talking through your shift in perspective (not just “men are the problem”) in short segments on the podcast, so its great to read this longer essay where it’s all coming together. I am also interested in how we can talk about bringing the best from everyone to our institutions… not just blaming men. On one hand, so many frustrations get blamed on “it’s the patriarchy” which is true and accurate in many cases. However, that starts to sound like “it’s the men” in less nuanced conversations. And men are an important part of the solution… and WANT to be part of the solution.
The righteous mind definitely challenged me and my thinking. Glad to know I’m not alone. Also Rep Sarah McBride seems like an amazing person and a phenomenal representative. I’m so glad you are going to have her on. Can’t wait to hear your interview with her.
Interesting to hear her thesis. I wonder if you might consider inviting Alison Armstrong on one of your podcasts. I have always found her perspective on how the workplace affects male and female roles and how women and men think differently. The one I was most struck by was how women as harvesters notice what is around them differently than men in the workplace who are focused on the 'hunt', and how that translates into relationships. https://www.alisonarmstrong.com/
I think men who want to be in control are often the ones rewarded with control. And that desire and its consequences are the broken thing. In other words, Western civilization is a corrupt, sexist, racist, colonial project not BECAUSE men were in charge, but because specific men were in charge. Unfortunately, I don't see enough examples of men policing each other to keep this from happening. I don't think institutions run by men are bad per se, but they are incomplete and definitely not best for everyone.
I am not sure that western civilization is unique in anything you mention and if we are talking about specific men making specific decisions how are we supposed to think about the few cases women were in charge? This seems particularly relevant when viewing the west as a colonial project, where Queen Isabella was a prominent figure in the colonial era.
Ah yes, the few women who have been in charge definitely outweigh the countless men who have been in charge for millennia. [the discussion was about Western Civilization]
I don’t disagree that we have a lack of data points on women in political leadership act. However, if your point is that individuals that are male led to a racist, sexist, colonial project what is separating from just being individuals that are human?
Isbella is interesting because she is a woman, who made statements against the mistreatment of indigenous people and yet she sponsored Columbus (and others) at a time she may have been the most powerful individual west of the Ottoman Empire.
We do have more data points on how women lead modern organizations and maybe there are some insights we can pull from there?
I think what we want to avoid is stereotyping so that Women are on a pedestal or overstating the difference in gender. When we are talking about group behavior in a random distribution of people we shouldn’t expect particularly gendered behavior, because most people are close to the middle.
you might see more gendered behavior is certain groups where self-selection and word view align with “gendered” traits. Ex: Lawyers in general are risk averse and have low agreeableness since a large part of the job is avoiding risks and disagreements. So it is attracting men and women who fit both. Whereas Teaching elementary students requires more agreeableness and risk aversion. So you are going to see elementary teachers as a group be more risk averse and agreeable. You can add different world views on this and get different behavior. EX teacher unions fighting return to in person, while law firms are launching return to office campaigns.
I appreciate the nuance, Sarah. And I agree that men are not "the problem." What I would add to your discussion is that the systems for rule & order that have dominated life in many (most?) parts of the world for centuries (maybe always) were created by & for powerful, privileged men. These systems are hierarchical so that only a few (men) control politics & economics for everyone else, which results in a world that is competitive & adversarial, where force is equated with power, & where fear runs rampant. I would further argue that the American experiment has included the slow (often too slow) but steady dismantling of the foundations of such systems. From rejecting kings, to ending slavery, to granting women the right to vote, to civil rights, to #metoo, to LGBTQ rights, we continue to reject the idea that a few, privileged men have some right to exercise their understanding of power over the rest of us. Anyone who believes that the world should be ordered thusly is horrified & terrified by what's happening (& women can be among those who so believe) & has seemingly joined forces to try & stop it. Anyone who does not believe that the world should be thus know that, as Kamala said, we are not going back (& men are among those who so believe). When anyone calls this dismantling of hierarchy the "feminization" of the culture & that's a bad thing, they're actually saying that women should return to their "place" in a hierarchical structure. No. Just no.
Thank you for this Sarah. Whenever I try to have a nuanced conversation about this with my friends on the left, it often leads to a lot of group think and man shaming and me playing devil’s advocate. Do especially white cis men continue to benefit more from the patriarchal society that was built before them by other white cis men? Yes. Should they then be punished by us for that fact? Harder question to answer. And I feel like until we objectively acknowledge that the addition of more women to the workforce has made getting work (or education) harder for men without just saying, “too bad,” we’re going to continue to hemorrhage votes to the party welcoming men’s grievances with open arms. Until we acknowledge there is a problem, we can’t begin to generate our own solution to it, which I of course do not believe is women need to lower their standards and become trad wives. But I do worry about the messages young boys are getting as early as elementary school. In the 90s I felt the message was that boys/girls should have equal opportunity. But today’s message seems to be get out our way guys, we can do it better, and your sole responsibility to is to help us get to the top. And again, it’s not that I think we have actually achieved equality, but our messaging is harming us from reaching this goal.
I don't think any woman is asking for men to help propel her to the top; I think women just don't want to be impeded.
Blaming women is not the answer! It is simply more brain dead thinking.
We live at a time when women’s voices are more available to listen to than ever (remember how women used to have to use masculine pen names to get published?) so it seems natural that culture would be influenced in that direction. Plus, who gets to decide what is “too feminine,” or what that even means? And you rightly observe that somehow anger doesn’t count as an emotion in conservatives’ argument, as the range of emotions “allowed” in manly men has shrunk and shrunk down to one. No wonder young men are having a hard time coping.
WOMEN OF THE WORLD! TIME TO REVOLT! This crap vomited out by Hegseth, is just that..CRAP! I CHALLENGE THE FORMER MILITARY WOMEN, ESP THE ONES HE FIRED, TO CHALLENGE HEGGY TO A COMPETITION INCLUDING ALL PHYSICAL & MENTAL MILITARY MONUEVERS! LET'S SEE HOW HE DOES! ALSO IT SHOULD BE TELEVISED LIVE EVERYWHERE, BECAUSE WE KNOW HE LOVES THE CAMERAS!(IF YOU AGREE PLEASE LIKE & SHARE!)