Why This Government Shutdown Could Be Different (And Harder to Win)

Trump's Netanyahu Problem, Comey's Indictment, and What Democrats Need

Today, we’re talking about the many meetings that Donald Trump is having this week. With Prime Minister Netanyahu, with Congressional Leadership, with all of the top leaders of the United States Military. We’re talking about his continued revenge tour. The United States of America is in a tough spot. We need leadership, and we’re getting sound bites and clapbacks. Sarah and Beth talk through these sticky, muddy, entrenched problems today and try to see a win for the American people on the other side of it.

Topics Discussed

• Trump Meets with Netanyahu

• Trump Meets with Congressional Leaders

• Trump Meets with the Department of War

• The Indictment of James Comey

• Outside of Politics: Common Ground Pilgrimages

Want more Pantsuit Politics? Subscribe to ensure you never miss an episode and get access to our premium shows and community.

Episode Resources

Government Shutdown and President Trump’s Many Meetings

• More to Say About Federal Firings

• White House to agencies: Prepare mass firing plans for a potential shutdown (POLITICO)

• Start Here Podcast - ABC Audio

• US set for largest mass resignation in history as Trump continues deep cuts (The Guardian)

• Netanyahu inches toward Gaza deal under pressure from Trump (Axios)

• Hegseth’s mysterious meeting with generals will focus on grooming and warrior ethos (POLITICO)

Common Ground Pilgrimages

• Emma with Common Ground Pilgrimages

• The Sacred by Liz Oldfield

• Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times by Liz Oldfield

• Life is Full of Surprises with Jen Hatmaker (Pantsuit Politics)

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:11] This is Beth Silvers. You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. Sarah is back from leading a common ground pilgrimage just in time for a whole bunch of meetings. We’re going to talk about all the president’s meetings today on the war in Gaza, on government funding, and as he puts it on esprit de corps in the U.S. Military. Then we’ll discuss the indictment of former FBI director James Comey, and we’ll wrap all this delight up with some actual delight by hearing about Sarah’s time in England.

Sarah [00:00:38] If you find today’s show helpful, we hope that you’ll share it with a friend. And if you’ve not already subscribed, make sure you do that on whatever platform works best for you. YouTube, a podcast player, Substack. To join the conversation, you can always email us at hello@ pantsuitpoliticshow.com or interact with other listeners by joining us over on Substack, we love hearing from all of you as we make our way through the news together.

Beth [00:01:01] Next up, let’s talk about all the big meetings. Sarah, we are recording at 1 o’clock PM Eastern time on Monday afternoon, which feels important to say, because it feels to me like we’re sitting on a wall and some major things could change by the time this episode is published, but we’re going to talk about what we know as we sit here. In chronological order, the first big meeting of the week is happening as we are recording and the president is spending time with Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu. This is the fourth time they have gotten together since president Trump was inaugurated. And I think the easiest way to summarize the situation is that everything is worse than the first three times.

Sarah [00:01:55] Yeah, we’re basically the only ally left. They have completely isolated themselves on the international stage. You have a number of European countries now recognizing Palestinian statehood. You have Netanyahu speaking before a basically empty United Nations General Assembly as people heckled him and walked out in protests. And they don’t have a lot of strong allies within the administration itself. All the reporting is that everyone is very, very frustrated with Bibi from the attacks on Qatar, which basically shut down all negotiations that were not approved, discussed, announced to the Trump administration. I think he’s just seen as a wild card and not listening, not caring. I don’t know why this has come as a surprise to anyone. He has been behaving like this towards democratic presidents for a long time. So I guess they thought that they would be the exception, but are proving to be the rule when it comes to Benjamin Netanyahu.

Beth [00:03:03] There are families of hostages outside the White House today, hoping that Trump will really pressure Netanyahu to do something to end the war. Trump has, as you said, gotten frustrated and been a little tougher on Israel in his language. He said he’s not going to let Israel annex the West Bank. He is considering several pitches. So Tony Blair, the former prime minister of the UK has an idea out there. There are plans from the French and the Saudis. Steve Witkoff has said we want the hostages returned within 48 hours of an agreement. We want Israel to give amnesty to Hamas members who commit to peacefully coexisting and anybody who wants to leave can have safe passage out of Gaza. And then we want new talks on long-term. How are we going to all live here together? And we also want Israel to promise not to attack Qatar again. So that’s sort of the broad outline from the White House, but they are looking at these more specific proposals from others as well.

Sarah [00:04:03] I was intrigued by the Tony Blair plan that you would have this sort of international authority that would come in and take over the transition. Trump’s plan is like, what, 21 points long. Then, of course, you have the Europeans exerting some influence as best they can. Overall, I’m encouraged that so much of these proposals include a plan for what comes next. They are leveling Gaza City. There’s just not going to be anything left except for millions of people of course. So seeing all these proposals of we’ll come in. It doesn’t have to be an Israeli occupation. It doesn’t have to be Hamas. Here is a proposal for what could actually come next is honestly very encouraging, I think.

Beth [00:05:03] I think the inclusion of the Palestinian Authority in these plans is encouraging as well. And I know that’s not a perfect organization, but it feels like all of the plans from overseas, at least, recognize that we are moving in the direction of Palestinian statehood and elections and real representation for the people of Gaza as part of this rebuilding process. So I very much hope it happens. My expectations for this meeting with Netanyahu are quite low, but I’m hopeful that he is starting to feel the mounting pressure from the international community.

Sarah [00:05:41] You’re more optimistic than I am. I don’t think we’re moving towards Palestinian statehood. I think that is very, very far away and not anything that the current Israeli government or even power players would cotton. I just think that people stepping forward and saying, here’s how we can just have it become a semi-functional place people can live is encouraging. Just a discussion of some sort of transition time to me seems optimistic, but I think whatever the posturing of these European countries, as far as Palestinian statehood, I think it is just that. I think it is just a desperate, but seemingly effective in that it’s moved the ball a little bit, effort to open up the negotiations or further the conversation. But as far is like moving towards Palestinian state hood, I wish I was that optimistic. I am not.

Beth [00:06:39] I think a lot of things seem impossible until they happen gradually and then all at once. So I think that I am feeling like if there is to be a resolution here and that resolution is one that Israel has to swallow, which I think is what’s going to have to happen at this point, maybe a lot is possible that wasn’t possible before all of this. And there’s a piece of me that just so hopes that something good can come on the other side of this, even as they’re talking about transitional plans issuing documents to say to people if you want to leave Gaza you can, but here’s a document that says you can come back. That’s part of the Blair proposal. The French and Saudi plan talks about this umbrella of the Palestinian authority, moving toward elections, having some kind of uniting of the West bank and Gaza. I don’t know. It just feels to me like there could be something good on the other side of this. I’m not saying it’s going to happen fast or be easy or be perfect, but I am somewhat hopeful.

Sarah [00:07:43] I think with all of these meetings, it will depend on Trump’s ability to hold the line and to exert real consequences on the Benjamin Netanyahu and his government when he says you will not be able to occupy the West bank. They already are. Are you going to do something about that? You know they are already exerting that level of control. And that’s certainly within their scope or plan or strategy. And so I don’t know how much pain the Trump administration is willing to place on the Benjamin Netanyahu government if they do not meet any expectations. There’s a lot of off the record reporting that they’re all frustrated, they’re all done with him. To me, the more encouraging thing is that you have these pieces of MAGA that are also done.

[00:08:48] I thought the New York Times reporting on Marjorie Taylor Green and how she’s illustrative of this part of the MAGA movement. And one of the issues is the strong position that there is genocide taking place in Gaza. And so I don’t know if it’ll be the pressure put on the Trump administration from that wing of the MAGA movement. I don’t know if he personally will hold the line. I have never seen a lot of examples of him doing that. I mean, he dances and he negotiates and he backs off and he sends somebody else and he talks out of both sides of his mouth. I don’t think that’s going to work here. And so his ability or desire or I don’t know.

Beth [00:09:41] Mood.

Sarah [00:09:41] End of the road, mood, vibe with Netanyahu. The reporting is that Jared Kushner is now involved. He’s very frustrated. Witkoff is very frustrated. So I don’t know if everybody’s frustrations will actually lead to a line in the sand that they’ll stick to. I’ve never really seen them do that before, so I’m not particularly hopeful. But I think that’s what it will require.

Beth [00:10:09] I imagine that meeting will be influenced significantly by other competing pressures that he feels, one of which has to be the fight over government funding. It is looking great now. Like we are still pretty well nowhere on a deal to keep the government open after tomorrow. After the Netanyahu meeting, Trump is scheduled to meet with the so-called Four Corners, the top Democrats and Republicans from the House and the Senate. Everybody seems pretty dug in. The Republicans just want a clean continuing resolution through November 21st. So seven-ish more weeks of funding at the current levels. Democrats want a number of things, but I think mostly to get something for votes to help keep the government open.

Sarah [00:10:57] Yeah, I was struck by Schumer, the minority leader in the Senate, brushing off Trump’s threats backed up by Russell Vought at the Office of Management and Budget saying, we’re going to take our moment. We’re going have these mass layoffs. We’re going to get the federal government in the way that we’ve always really wanted to. And Schumer was like, yeah, but we’ll sue and everybody will get placed back in their positions. And I thought, well, I don’t know if that would happen. But I thought his dependence on lawfare to fix whatever happens over the course of a government shutdown was interesting. I think what’s hard right now is that the low engagement Americans who the passive news consumers are not paying attention to this if they even know it’s on the table, I would guess most people don’t even know a government shutdown is this close.

[00:12:03] But it’s those people that matter as a government shutdown continues and we see who feels like the pain has gotten strong enough. I mean, a Republican party that is just so locked in with Donald Trump makes a government shut down very difficult to navigate, I think, as a minority party. But then you do have those fringes we were talking about, like Marjorie Taylor Greene and Thomas Massey and Rand Paul. But I don’t know if those fissures are really about anything touched by a government shutdown or if there are other things are picking up and they’ll just be good foot soldiers as much as they are in any other government shutdown. I don’t know. I just think that it’s really hard to tell because right now who’s engaged with this on both sides are political people and that’s ultimately not what’s going to decide that the pain has gotten strong enough that we need to end any government shutdown.

Beth [00:13:11] Political people and also people who work for the government. And as we noted during the heyday of DOGE, people who worked for the government do live in a lot of communities across the country. Fewer of them now than there were in January. But I wonder if that continued drumbeat from people who work for The Government of Unhappiness will start to have more of an impact in communities, especially if they’re saying we’re not getting paid. We expect to see more resignations from the federal workforce this week, according to some reporting from The Guardian. I think there might be enough to bubble up to the surface here for non-political people. The main problem that I have thinking about our conversations leading up to this point about what Democrats need to do, the main problem I have sitting here today is that I tried to find the simplest communication of Democratic priorities in these negotiations that I could. And it sounds like a permanent extension of tax credits for health insurance bought on the marketplace, the rolling back of Medicaid restrictions from the Big Beautiful Bill and restoring funding for public broadcasters. And I feel like that is a bad list of reasons to walk into a negotiation over government funding with.

Sarah [00:14:30] Yeah, I don’t know why they did the PBS stuff. I don’t really think that is a high enough priority to put that on the list. I do think centering it around health insurance and health care costs. I really don’t think the federal workers will get us there. I just don’t think there’s enough of them, especially now that there are a few. It was like one in eight are gone now since January. I think it will be the stuff that people feel in their day to day lives. Air traffic controllers, national parks, a disruption to-- which has already been massively disrupted and I’m not hearing that in my everyday life about social security benefits and the IRS. And so we’re going to see. The government shutdowns have never really played out the way that I expected them to, and we’ve had a couple. And so I’m just trying to really keep my expectations in check as far as like how your average American processes this. What it ultimately means for either the Trump administration, congressional Republicans, congressional Democrats.

[00:15:48] And I’m just not sure we know. I’m not even sure past government shutdowns are a good indication because we’re in such a different environment. I have to believe that the threshold and tolerance for chaos has got to be getting pretty low among your average American, and this is going to contribute to it. The sense of like you promised us low prices and a return to greatness. And prices are still very, very high and getting higher. Political assassinations and government shutdowns and two wars that you said you were going to end that are still continuing and getting worse doesn’t feel like making America great again to me. So I’m trying to remember that I’m a bad barometer for that low information, low engagement American. I just am. And it’s hard for me to even put myself in a spot where I could think about how they’re going to process this or how this is going to read to them.

Beth [00:17:01] I also think we know from history that health care the low information voter is not moved by that focus consistently. And I think both parties have lost confidence with the public over health care. I don’t think that issue breaks through as the good and righteous fight. I have yet to hear a single Democrat in leadership communicate about the shutdown in a way that I thought, okay, I’m with you. I got it. And that’s a problem because as you said, the opportunity is wide open right now. So many things are going so poorly for this administration that you just want somebody to be able to step into that breach and say, “And I’ve got a plan to march in the other direction. It’s going to be hard. We’re going to have to get through next year, but once we do, here we go.” And I just don’t see it right now. I’m in kind of a funk, honestly, about what I think could come next that feels very hopeful.

Sarah [00:18:07] I think though even the expectation that it needs to be this message to “win the shutdown” is something I’m just questioning. I think I’m just reminding myself that everything’s a little bit upside down and inside out and the lessons that perhaps seem clear from past shutdowns were in such a different political environment. And I don’t know. I don’t know if it needs to be this clearly articulated message that the average American go, I’m with you. I just don’t know. I think it’s so hard. Axios did this thing about the shifting paradigm. And again to that sort of shattered environment where everyone is listening to something different. Everyone is taking in news differently and from different sources that they trust. And I don’t know how that shakes out in some things like government shutdown. And the truth is it’s not going to shake out in one way. The truth is it doesn’t matter if they had the best number one articulated message. Everybody’s not going to hear it.

[00:19:18] Everybody’s not going to hear it the same way. And so I’m just trying to think, okay, so what does that mean with a national event like this? I read a couple of things where people were just-- one of them was Matt Iglesias, who I have an enormous amount of respect for, just pushing back on something we’ve been saying a lot, which is just engage with your local community, engage with your local politics. And he was like that sounds nice. We don’t have local politics anymore. The Republican party is trying to nationalize the midterms. Like we’re just going to nationalized the mid-terms. That’s it. This is a national political environment. And then the splintering of the media environment makes that even more effective. And so I’m just trying to question every assumption I’m making about how this will play out. Because so much of the things that I thought since this administration began we’re going to be like the shit that hits the fan and everyone will see it and it’ll all get cleared up, it’s just not come to fruition. It’s all every reaction is splintered. Every takeaway is splinted. There’s no clear winner up down otherwise because it again still feels very opaque in so many ways dealing with this administration.

Beth [00:20:33] There’s too many things to keep up with that’s for sure. I think that I’m really searching for voices that feel credible. They don’t even have to be like messaging geniuses. We’re not to the midterms yet, but I’m looking for people to sound credible. When Schumer says we’ll go to court and everyone will be reinstated, that doesn’t sound credible to me. That is not the track record of this administration in court right now. I heard someone say on ABC news programs Start Here this morning that there is no friendlier terrain in this country for Donald Trump than the United States Supreme Court right now. And that’s true. If you go through the emergency docket, he is one case after another getting the court to vote with him without even saying why. In the face of directly on point precedent he is eroding power gradually. I think because this court is afraid that if they contradict him, he’ll do what he wants anyway and they don’t want to provoke that kind of fight.

[00:21:35] But I don’t know what’s more desirable; to have a constitutional crisis that you went at hard or to have one that comes because you were so passive. And that is again in the realm that the low information voter is not paying attention to. So if you’re thinking about your legislative career right now and your opportunity, I think you have to evaluate this shutdown by asking what does the most good for my constituents. If you’re not going to get any kind of messaging victory, if you’re not going be able to fire people up to get any kind of electoral momentum because of this fractured environment that you’re talking about, then don’t you just have to say, what is the effect on my constituents one way or the other and I have to vote based on that impact?

Sarah [00:22:26] I don’t know. I think that sounds like a good call and it sounds like it makes sense. But that is based on to me still stands on a foundation of a normal order of things of which we are not in. And it does feel like the more extreme the situation becomes and the more we’re talking about the basic functions of our government and this clearly articulated desire from Russell Vought and the Trump administration to exercise a unitary executive to basically make the other two branches of our constitutional democracy superfluous, then don’t we move from less a delegate where I just do what my constituents want me to do to more of a trustee that I have to do what I am called to do as his representative? I’m not here just to make sure y’all taxes stay low. I swear to uphold the constitution. I’m not doing that anymore. The constitution is being shredded. We’re sacrificing our powers as congressional representatives. This far and no further. I think it’s a really hard call.

Beth [00:23:45] Well, I think doing what is in the best interest of your constituents is different than being a delegate of what your constituents would say to you is in their best interest. I think you would have to honestly assess like what is the impact on my state of a government shutdown versus what is the impact on my state if we don’t get these tax credits for health insurance, that kind of thing.

Sarah [00:24:05] Or what about what’s the impact on your state if he continues unchecked.

Beth [00:24:09] And that’s the problem with government funding as the vehicle, right? It’s too much riding on this one thing. Because even if Democrats got every concession they ask for here, this does nothing to restore the constitutional order. The list of demands from Democrats are just about spending money, which is what this fight is about. But it does nothing to check all of these executive overreaches. I don’t know either. I don’t know what you do in this environment. But when I think about the cost and benefit of keeping the government just functioning at a baseline level versus not, I think if I were there right now and considering do I vote for seven more weeks at current levels or not? I got to have some kind of rubric to make that decision. So I think mine would come down to what is the harm either way to the people of mine, to the people I’m supposed to represent, my state or my district.

Sarah [00:25:09] I don’t know. I think it’s incredibly difficult. I do not envy the negotiators. I do not envy the representatives who have to make the call. I think that seven more weeks feels like an eternity with this administration as the power grabs escalate. And I could make an argument that whatever tools you have, even if it’s just spending, even if it’s just continuing resolutions, take them and slow it down.

Beth [00:25:49] I would certainly like Congress to be Congress. I think that would be very valuable right now. We have one more meeting to talk about. This is happening tomorrow on Tuesday, as this episode is being published. The secretary of defense/war, Pete Hegseth, has summoned top military leaders from across the world to come to Virginia for a meeting where he is expected to speak about, this is from the New York times, grooming and fitness requirements and other aspects of what he calls a shift toward a warrior ethos at the Pentagon.

Sarah [00:26:19] Yeah. It’s interesting. I don’t think Trump knew about it until they asked. And now he’s like, well, you don’t get to have this big fancy meeting and me not show up. So I’m going to come too and we’re going to talk about this pre decor term. I definitely don’t think he knew before yesterday. And to me it just seem to speak to the More to Say you made, it’s just more waste. I can’t fathom how much it’s costing to bring all these generals and admirals from across the world on this short notice. And it also just seems kind of dangerous to put them all in a room together.

Beth [00:26:53] It seems very dangerous to me. If this is a pep rally, which is how the president is talking about, “It’s just going to be so nice. We’ll talk about how great we’re doing. We’ll talk about what great shape we’re in. A lot of good positive things,” he said. That is a very, very dangerous and very, very expensive pep rally. It’s hard for me to imagine that that’s all it is. I hope that’s all it is, I guess. That’s so weird though to be like I hope the worst thing that’s happening here is a complete boondoggle that feels risky until it’s over and then it’s fine again. But that’s I think the best outcome.

Sarah [00:27:26] It’s not hard for me at all to imagine that because Pete Hegseth is in charge and boondoggle seems to be his one operating principle at the department of defense. It’s been a shit show from the beginning and only through intimidation, firing, lie detector tests and just complete obfuscation has he maintained his job at all. And just because Trump keeps backing him up. I mean, that’s just the long and short of it. Just Trump keeps backing him up.

Beth [00:28:00] I think that the most clear understanding I have of Trump’s mentality about his second term so far is that he does not want the stories of revolving door, palace intrigue, staff chaos. And I think that’s the only reason that Pete Hegseth has hung on because Trump just doesn’t want to have that be where the media attention is this time around.

Sarah [00:28:22] I got to think Susie Wiles is a big piece of that, too.

Beth [00:28:24] I think that’s probably right. And I think that Pete Hegseth will do literally anything to stay in good enough graces.

Sarah [00:28:34] Then why would he form this big old meeting and not talk to them about it?

Beth [00:28:40] That’s a great question I don’t have the answer to you. Maybe he bet at the end of the day that Trump would love to be there with all of his generals.

Sarah [00:28:49] I don’t know.

Beth [00:28:49] We are going to take a break from the meetings now and move on to the indictment of former FBI director, James Comey. Sarah, I have read too many indictments over the last few years. What I can say nicely about this one is that it’s brief.

Sarah [00:29:15] As we said, good news. This one’s super short.

Beth [00:29:17] Yes. Just barely two pages. No detail at all. You have two counts here that together carry a five-year prison sentence if Comey were convicted. And it all boils down to him answering a single question from Senator Ted Cruz at a hearing in September of 2020. That’s why this was rushed to get done because the statute of limitations was about to expire. So they had to bring it now or they wouldn’t be able to bring.

Sarah [00:29:45] The statute of limitations on what we’re talking about has fully expired because we’re taking about shit that went down in 2015 and 2016, and they have depended on this weirdly worded question from Senator Cruz about 2016 in 2020 in order to barely slide through the statute of limitation. I read the New York Times write-up about the factual path for what they’re trying to pin on him like three times, and I’m still not sure I could explain it to you. It’s so convoluted. Mind you that the standard for federal prosecutors is not to bring anything you don’t think you can win, and you think you can win this on two pages from a question in 2020 that’s really about a situation in 2016.

Beth [00:30:43] The shortest version that I can offer of the factual situation here is that Andrew McCabe authorized a leak when he was deputy FBI director about the FBI looking at possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia. So we are going all the way back to Trump versus Clinton. After the fact, McCabe says he told Jim Comey about it. In this hearing Ted Cruz says, did you authorize anyone to leak to the Wall Street Journal about this investigation? And Comey says no, and Comey has been pressed on it a number of times. He always says no.

Sarah [00:31:20] But he misspoke, too. He didn’t just say, like, did you authorize someone. Ted Cruz misspoke in this damn question making it even more confusing.

Beth [00:31:29] I think the central fact that makes this a tough prosecution is that Andrew McCabe never said, “Comey told me I could do it.” Like that would seem to be the missing piece here of how you prove that Comey did the thing and knew he had done the thing, and then lied to the Senate about doing the thing. These two counts are both related to that one incident. So one count is lying to the senate, and the other is in lying in perjuring himself that he obstructed the Senate’s proceeding. But you have to prove the lie to even get to that second charge.

Sarah [00:32:06] I want to engage fairly with the critique because what they’re mad about is the Russia investigation, which look, all the inspector general’s reports, Durham’s report, they’re not glowing. They pursued this in the face of lacking evidence. They were briefing the Clinton team, treating them completely different around their Russia investigation. There is some there-there. And this whole structure is kind of a Comey special. This is what he would do. When he couldn’t get to what he wanted to charge people with, he would charge them with lesser things like obstruction. That’s what he did with Michael Flynn. It’s what you do with Martha Stewart. so there’s some there-there. James Comey is not above critique. I personally have a lot of critiques of James Comey particularly that press conference. But you don’t have enough to do what you want to do. And Christopher Ray had already instituted a lot of reforms. Durham and his reports, like, the recommendations that I would put forth to prevent this from happening again have been put in place by Christopher Ray.

[00:33:18] Somebody else, Donald Trump’s already hunting down already on Truth Social. So it’s just a mess. Huge red flag that the grand jury wouldn’t put forward one of the indictments. I was like, okay, well, is this just me being hopeful that this is a red flag? No, I looked it up. The Justice Department data shows how unusual that is. In the 2016 fiscal year, federal prosecutors declined to bring charges against somebody because the grand jury didn’t return an indictment only six times out of more than 150,000 suspects who were investigated that year. Six out of 150,00. That’s a lot. Now, listen, these numbers are up because they keep trying to indict people for like throwing a sandwich. But you have this career prosecutor who didn’t bring charges. He has since resigned. I feel pretty confident this is going to get dismissed before trial, don’t you?

Beth [00:34:11] I think it should. I can’t imagine that they have enough to move this forward. And like you said, if there’s someone who knows these statutes and the standard of evidence involved, it’s James Comey. And he does not seem nervous at all about this and is insistent that he is innocent. And I do believe him because he knows these statutes so well. I agree with you. A lot of things have gone poorly over the last 10 years with federal criminal investigations. I think the lesson should be the criminal law is not how we get to everything that we’re worried about. Instead, the lesson seems to be, I’m going to do the criminal law as the solution to every problem, but harder and less professionally. And I am concerned about it, but I also do believe the justice system is hanging together enough. That’s something that appears this then goes nowhere. And look, if he did it and they are able to prove it then that is just what it is. I’m not here to say you should never indict someone who had some kind of political position. That’s not how I feel at all. If he did it, fine. It just looks to me like they don’t care if he did it or not. They just want to make people miserable because they feel they’ve been made miserable.

Sarah [00:35:40] Yeah, they’re out for revenge. However confident he is, this will cost a lot of money. Also, they fired his daughter who was a career prosecutor in the justice department based solely I think on the fact that she was his daughter. I think these political criminal prosecutions are really problematic and surely we can come to that conclusion together across parties based on the evidence of the last 10 years. And whether the justice system is holding it together, perhaps, but the justice department is not. The justice department isn’t deep trouble. Not just because you have all these career prosecutors resigning, but because the idea that the justice department is not the revenge department for the president, I think is over. I think we can safely say that “norm” that held on through the first administration where you had career prosecutors threatening mass resignations and kept him mostly in check, those days are over. He is unchecked. Pam Bondi works for him, not for us. And Pam Bondi is pursuing his revenge list, not anything related to the actual priorities, victims among the American populace.

Beth [00:37:03] On Monday’s episode of More to Say, which I make for our Substack subscribers, I talk about all of these instances in which president Trump has fired someone who’s in a position that is supposed to have a specified term under law. So these agencies that Congress creates to be somewhat independent, usually appoint people for a specific term and they can only be fired for enumerated causes. And Trump has fired all kinds of people for not enumerated causes mostly because they’re Democrats or if you happen to be a black woman. You’re fired because you’re DEI and that’s not consistent with our priorities, whatever. But none of them have been fired for causes that are allowed under the statutes. And the Supreme Court just keeps rubber stamping that. And what I see as the container around all of this is Project 2025.

[00:37:52] The way that people have characterized Project 2025 to be everything they don’t like, to me, misses the underlying driving sentiment which is that representative democracy here today is best expressed through presidential elections. That’s what people pay the most attention to. That’s when the most people vote. And so the president is the single hallmark of public will. And so what the president wants goes. And we shouldn’t have independent agencies of any sort because independent is just papering over elite, unaccountable, all of the worst of the administrative state. The deep state is what is papered over by the word independent. And so the justice department on the Project 2025 roadmap is supposed to become the president’s lawyers because the president is the embodiment of what the country wants in that worldview.

Sarah [00:38:55] And I just think they picked a really bad vehicle for that particular view of the unitary executive because what matters to Donald Trump is what matters to Donald Trump. Now, there is a proportion of the MAGA base who is thrilled with this and wants more of it. But I do not think that is representative of the American people and their priorities. And he’s just going to continue to pursue what’s important to him and basically ignore the concerns of the American people. I thought a few days ago, while listening to a conversation about this, somebody should make a political ad that says, “Donald Trump is four times richer since he was sworn in. Are you?” You know what I mean? Yeah, it’s going great for him. Is it working for you? He’s much richer. Are you? He’s much happier. He’s pursuing vengeance against his enemies. He is a bad vehicle for this. He is bad vehicle this. The only thing that I think appeals to people is the unapologetic pursuit of Ed. I do think that appeals to the people. I think this person at the top who just gets away with it is deeply appealing for whatever psychological reason.

Beth [00:40:24] Well, and there has been such a long-term project of creating a universe of enemies. He tells his stories over and over again, not coherently, but cohesively, I guess. So I think that a lot of people have internalized the idea that Comey is their enemy, too. And so he is going after their enemies as well. To your point though, what’s that doing for you in your everyday life? Is the road better? Is the school better? Is your bank account better? Is your retirement better? And I hate to boil everything down to those really selfish terms. I’m just trying to accept that that’s where the political rubber meets the road for maybe most people in our country. And, to me, every aspect of my life feels more stressful than it did a year ago.

Sarah [00:41:23] I think there is an aspect of self-interest, absolutely, particularly when it comes to people’s economic reality. However, I think the number of voices in America that are saying, I’m tired of fighting are growing. And I’m tired of treating people like my enemies. And I don’t want to think that my neighbor is my enemy. And so his pursuit of his enemies is not exactly speaking to that very articulated need from I think a growing proportion of the American public.

Beth [00:42:10] I hope you’re right about that. I certainly feel that sense among people that I know. And I also feel a sense that we want the economy stabilized. We are not interested in betting the farm on data centers. I just think more and more of us are starting to look around and say, the direction of everything is not my vision for what makes a good life and a good country. We will continue to follow the ill-gotten pursuit of the Department of Justice. We will continue to think about the economy and the direction of the country. But we are going to take a break from all that right now and hear about Sarah’s trip with Common Ground Pilgrimages. Sarah, I saw some of your pictures, which to me did speak the thousand words that it was just lovely and peaceful and wonderful to be away with a group of people talking about Pride and Prejudice.

Sarah [00:43:18] Yeah, it was a really beautiful trip. It was supposed to rain the whole time, but the sun shined. And we took long, incredible walks through Chatsworth and the Moors. And just the peak district overall of the United Kingdom is incredible. I had never been there before, but it’s really, really special. It was an incredible group. Just smooth as silk, no drama. Incredible conversations around the book, incredible conversations around the dinner table, the breakfast table, our lunch picnics. It just was a really, really life-giving trip. We walked a ton. It’s a pilgrimage, so there’s lots of walking. But we also had plenty of time for rest and really wonderful conversations about Mr. Darcy and Lizzie Bennet and Mrs. Bennet. Justice for Mrs. Bennett, that’s how I feel. We talked about that, Charlotte Lucas. We did character studies every day. It was really, really wonderful.

[00:44:23] And Liz Slade was our logistics person and was a dream. And Liz Oldfield, who was our chaplain and just was such a love. And I think our listeners would really, really love her. She has a book called Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times and an incredible podcast called The Sacred that I think our audience would really, really love. And it just was really-- no notes, man. No notes. Just so great. I know a couple members are already like I think I’m going to need to come on Emma because I’m working on another common ground pilgrimage around Emma, the first one ever, Jane Austen’s novel in May. So if this is appealing to you, check that trip out. Beth and I are doing one together around Frankenstein next month, that’s sold out. You’re doing one around Little Women, that’s sold out. But Emma is still available next May, if you think if Common Ground Pilgrimage would be for you.

Beth [00:45:20] Well, I know you have another story to tell us about your trips, Sarah. So I’m anxious to hear what is one of the highlights.

Sarah [00:45:26] I mean, the situation is I have unlocked a new level of existence. If you listened to our interview with Jen Hatmaker around her incredible new memoir, Awake, you know that Jen shared an articulated dream. I think we should use the audio here. She talks about comforting a baby. Beth, do you share this dream with Jen and I?

Beth [00:45:53] I do not. I love babies and I’m always happy to help with anyone’s baby, but it is not something that’s on my life bucket list.

Sarah [00:46:01] Let me tell you, I told so many friends and they were like this is all I want to do in life. Well, guys, I have done it. I have achieved it. I have unlocked this level. I, of course, texted Jen the second the plane landed before my own family to tell them that I had landed the plane. Not that I landed the plane, to tell then that I have touched down safely. I was on the plane. We’re halfway through. We got a lot of time left. You know what I’m saying? We’re a couple hours in, but we got a lotta hours left. And I hear this baby and I’m like, hmm, he’s mad. Not just sad. Not just tired. Mad. So I go back there, I see this sweet mama and I’m like, “Hey, I got three. Do you need some help?” She’s like, um, no, no. But she is in distress. She’s, like, well, do you have any tips? And I said, well, I think he might be cold. So we get a blanket and eventually I’m like I think we need to tighten this blanket up. So I’m like just hand him over to me. And I wrap him up tight and bounce aggressively. Very aggressively. And he falls asleep. And it’s just the best.

[00:47:08] And then we have turbulence, so we have to walk back and I hand him off to her. And she just seems so relieved. It just felt like so many times when I was a young mother I would have really loved that reach out really a little like, hey, everything’s going to be okay. I don’t think I ever took that long of a flight with a baby. I sat next to Amy from the Common Ground Pilgrim which is on the way back and we were talking about it. I think maybe I took Amos to Arizona when he was maybe around one. Amos was an easy baby. So I would never have had that situation. I have been on a plane where I tried to help and the woman did nothing and it was traumatic and I still remember it and this helped ease some of the trauma of that experience. And I couldn’t stand. I went and checked up on them later and they were both asleep. And it was so sweet.

Beth [00:47:57] I’m so glad they got some sleep.

Sarah [00:47:58] They got some sleep. They just both needed some sleep.

Beth [00:48:02] I do understand the appeal of this now that I have older kids. I was saying to one of my girls who has been in some distress lately, I just want you to understand the way that I listened to your cries. I studied your cries so that I could understand are you mad or are you tired or are you hungry? What is it that you need? I was a scholar of your cries, of your poop, its consistency, its smell, its coloration. I really was able to go to school on you as a kid and now I’m trying to go school on you again. You changed in every single way. And I’m working so hard to be able to track it. But I definitely wish that I could wrap mine up in a blanket and bounce for a while right now and make everything okay the way that I used to.

Sarah [00:48:49] Listen, the five S’s were the shit.

Beth [00:48:51] They were.

Sarah [00:48:52] There ain’t no five Ss now, y’all.

Beth [00:48:54] Can we have for the five S’s for teenagers? If somebody would write that I would pay so much for it.

Sarah [00:49:00] I am so sorry to tell you that I don’t think it exists. Sadly. I know, that’s why I’m like give me a baby. I told my friend Laura and she was like when the turbulence came on I would have ran back to my seat and be like, oh, can’t get up, see you at customs. Like the holding a sleeping baby to me it just keys in a lock. You just have to get everything kind of put in the right place. And then it wasn’t a minute thirty two minutes.

Beth [00:49:32] Well, once your body has that muscle memory of how to hold and bounce, it’s pretty good.

Sarah [00:49:38] And bless her heart. Nobody was offering to bring her anything. I don’t know if she was by herself or not. And then you get in this spot where you feel stuck. Like, well, he’s crying. I don’t want to get up and get something that might make it worse because he’ll cry all the way by every row where people are sleeping. So she was in the back of the plane. I think she just feels stuck. So I just couldn’t take it anymore.

Beth [00:50:01] Good for you for helping and good for her for saying yes to help. To more people saying yes to help.

Sarah [00:50:08] Yeah. I think you could see the sort of hesitation, but I was like hey I came back here because I wanted to help. Like, we’ll figure this out. You’re his mama. You got this. It was the greatest. Nicholas was like you spent 10 days in England and the best thing that happened to you was holding this baby. And I’m like, I’m mean, yes, it was pretty awesome. Maybe just because it was like the finale of an already incredible experience, but it was a hell of a finale. I got to tell you that.

Beth [00:50:46] That’s great. Well, glad you had fun. Glad you’re back. Looking forward to us taking off to do this in a couple of weeks. It’s coming so soon. And lots to discuss between now and then. So thank you all for listening and for being here. We’ll be back with you on Friday with another new episode. Until then, have the best week available to you.