10 Things I Learned from Elon Musk and Joe Rogan
3 hours and 19 minutes that I found both insulting and inspiring
On February 28, The Joe Rogan Experience published a 3-hour and 19-minute interview with Elon Musk. I read lots of coverage of the conversation and decided to spend a long drive this weekend listening. Like it or not (and I don’t), these are the two most powerful men in media and two of the most powerful men in American politics. So, I fired up their conversation as I pulled out of my driveway and tried to listen with an open mind.
What I heard was equal parts insulting and inspiring to me as a podcaster and a person who cares about politics. Here are my takeaways.
Insulting
#1 - No one does any homework of any kind. I spend a tremendous amount of time thinking about what it means to respect the audience in podcasting. How do you maintain the free-form spirit that makes podcasts interesting while also sharing ideas and information in a considered way? This is a tough balance, and I don’t think anyone (especially me) nails it with consistency. That said, if Sarah and I spoke the way that Joe Rogan and Elon Musk spoke—if we said the exact words these two exchanged—we would be universally criticized as unprepared and uninformed. “Half-baked” is a generous descriptor for every single topic discussed over the course of the 3 hours and 19 minutes.
#2 - “The media lies” is the thesis statement and all of the supporting evidence. I guess no one does homework because nothing is believable. If you track the logic of everything Rogan and Musk discussed—sex robots, Jeffrey Epstein, USAID —it all rests on a foundational belief that we can’t believe anything that comes from established media or their liberal conspirators. A post on X is always more credible than a story printed in a major newspaper. Nothing is reliable, except what maybe piques their interest.
#3 - Incredulity is intellectual. Best I can tell, Rogan’s job on his show is to say, “WHAT? That’s so crazy. It’s totally insane.” Everything Elon Musk said to Rogan was taken as a profound statement of fact about a baffling world. Musk pulled percentages out of thin air (the government might be 5-10% good, but is 90, 95% “not”; “illegals” in swing states have “like a 80% likelihood of voting Dem;” generalized artificial intelligence is 80% likely to have a good outcome) and received no questions from Rogan about those numbers whatsoever. He said he had receipts to back up all of DOGE’s work; he certainly wasn’t asked to produce them or provide any detail. The incredulity, the “can you believe people?” posture is plenty.
#4 - The only world that matters exists online. These guys are obsessed with internet controversies, internet takes, and internet stories. They spent lots of time playing with “unhinged Grok,” a version of Musk’s large language model that repeats every prompt sarcastically and then profanely insults the user. I don’t know what is real to them. I don’t know what they think about any of the issues that cause stress in my life and in the lives of people I see and love in my community. I don’t understand a politics animated by the Hunter Biden laptop story or a conspiracy about Seth Rich or whether people misinterpreted Elon’s gesture at a rally.
#5 - Everything is part hero’s journey, part joke. I guess it’s not true to say “I don’t know what is real to them.” Clearly, they are real to themselves. They are clear and compelling in telling the story of how the public talks to and about them. They want to be heroes of speech, of industry, of uncovering great and deliberately-suppressed plots by other wealthy and powerful people. And they want to be entertained. Whether they were calling Social Security a Ponzi scheme or accusing Democrats of “importing voters” or discussing how Elon “can’t push too hard on the corruption stuff because it’s gonna get me killed,” you could always hear a little bit of a punchline. It’s all a little amusing to them, and if it’s not amusing, it’s not worth their attention.
Inspiring:
#6 - They’re having fun. I don’t like people spreading garbage information and bad ideas from positions of power because it amuses them. I do think there’s a lesson in how much fun they have. Joe Rogan and Elon Musk spent much of this conversation in fits of giggles. I’m not using the word “giggles” pejoratively; it’s just descriptive. They’re having fun, and fun is attractive. People want and desire more fun in all areas of their lives. They want more lightness. They want to relieve some pressure. Even some gallows humor helps. I listened to this conversation, and it reflected back to me how self-serious I can be. It reflected back to me why we so frequently hear from people, “I love you guys, but I need a break from news and politics.” There is a way to have fun and still take the world seriously, and I want to work on that balance in myself.
#7 - They’re not worried about screwing up. It frustrated me that Musk and Rogan were so obviously unprepared to talk to each other. At the same time, it is refreshing to listen to people who are willing to guess, willing to use not quite the right word (and I mean just that; I do not mean deliberately using offensive words to trigger the libs). I worry constantly about everything and everyone listening. While there’s some strength and care in that, there’s also a lot of limitation. I also want to work on this balance in myself.
#8 - There’s a lot to be said for range in conversations. It is disorienting to go from a conversation about Avatar depression (which I learned is a sadness some people feel after watching the movies and wishing they could live in Pandora) to genetically engineering super-viruses to fraud and abuse in government spending to alien life forms. There is also a vulnerability in just following the conversational loop, which is rare in media but relatable in life. I want to talk to my friends about Avatar depression and super-viruses and fraud and abuse in government spending, and then I want to come back to alien life forms. Being willing to go there, wherever “there” is, lets people know who you are. That’s why I’m proud when Sarah and I can say we had a “characteristically wide-ranging” discussion. It’s why we end every episode outside of politics and why we don’t hesitate to tell a seemingly unrelated story from our lives in the middle of a policy discussion. I think we have even more room with each other and definitely with our guests to go there and let “there” be more expansive. I want to be willing to do it myself, and I want to have people join us who are willing to do it with us.
#9 - They have a massive capacity for risk. It surprised me that Joe and Elon were willing to claim so much responsibility for Trump’s win. Anyone who has studied the President knows that he doesn’t like to share credit. It felt risky for them to say that it mattered that Rogan had Trump on the podcast right before the election, to talk about how Elon’s money and campaigning in Pennsylvania mattered. But that aligns with what I know about them. Say what you will about Elon Musk; he has a high risk tolerance. He will pursue goals without feeling constrained by consequences. I am concerned about how he’s doing that in government. I am simultaneously pushing myself to ask what I believe in enough to take risks around. What would I do in pursuit of an America without homelessness? What fallout would I endure to ensure that people receive loving, responsible care in their final years of life? What would I break to provide loving, responsible child care for all families? I don’t want to be reckless, but I listen to them and realize that’s not my risk. My risk is not being willing to leave it all on the field for what I believe matters.
#10 - There is no barrier to entry with them. I don’t want to say that this conversation felt inclusive. That’s a) inaccurate and b) a word they’d (hilariously) find offensive. It was accessible. I didn’t need to know any acronyms. I didn’t really need to follow the extremely-online-meme-culture that they so enjoy. I didn’t need backstories. I didn’t need expertise. I think Joe Rogan is so successful because he consistently creates “pull up a chair” conditions. I think MAGA has been successful for similar reasons. There’s an immediate sense that if you’re listening, you’re in on the joke. You’re with us. You’ve already done something brave by opting out of the mainstream. I think they create a feeling of belonging at massive scale. I don’t like the way they do it, and I don’t like what it produces. But I’m going to be thinking for a long time about what a healthy version of belonging at massive scale might look like.
I did not enjoy this episode. The time did not fly. I did remember why I love podcasts and how powerful they are. I learned some things about myself and how I approach both podcasting and politics. I found it to be a pretty rich text as I try to navigate this moment in American history.
More on the State of Political Podcasting
Since the theme for this week’s newsletter is podcasting, Sarah and Beth shared their thoughts on Gavin Newsome’s new podcast “This is Gavin Newsome” and his headturning guests on our bonus episode of Pantsuit Politics this week. It was spicy, as advertised.
Something Nice to Take You Into the Weekend
What We’re Reading and Listening To This Week
Sarah: Careless People: A Cautionary Tale of Power, Greed, and Lost Idealism by Sarah Wynn-Williams
Beth: DOGE Makes Its Latest Errors Harder to Find (The New York Times)
Alise: Severance (Apple TV). Please join her in the chat for all the Severance talk.
Maggie: ‘You’ve Blown a Hole in the Family’: Inside the Murdochs’ Succession Drama (The New York Times Magazine) Note: I did not watch Succession, but if the writers had come up with this, they would have been like “we have to tone it down, no one will ever believe that”
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Whew, I appreciate you *taking one for the team*, Beth! Informative and definitely lots to ponder. As I approached the end of your points, one overwhelming thought kept resurfacing: white, male privilege. And, I don't write that lightly or flippantly. Barriers to entry, not caring if they mess up, etc. There is a confidence in them that I feel mostly comes from their belief that they are superior.
During this 3+ hour conversation, did Rogan ask Elon how he manages to balance his 14 kids (w/ 4 different women) while running 6 companies & heading up DOGE? I can assure you if a woman were be interviewed, that topic would be the entirety of the conversation.