Ceasefire in Gaza, Standoff in Washington

We talked to Rep. Ro Khanna about the shutdown and his efforts to get the Epstein files released.

Will there finally be peace in Gaza? Sarah and Beth discuss President Trump’s efforts to coordinate a peace deal between Israel and Gaza. They reflect on what it must mean to families on both sides of the conflict to see a potential end to this war in sight.

Why isn’t Congress back in session to end this shutdown and what does it have to do with Epstein?. Sarah and Beth talk to Rep. Ro Khanna about the government shutdown and his efforts to get the Epstein files released. Rep. Khanna also shares why the two are intertwined.

How much cleaning is too much cleaning? Outside of politics, we’re talking about cleaning content and what level of cleaning goes past reasonable standards of cleanliness.

Topics Discussed

• A Peace Deal in Gaza

• Rep. Ro Khanna on the Epstein Files

• Outside of Politics: Cleaning Content

Want more Pantsuit Politics? Subscribe to ensure you never miss an episode and get access to our premium shows and community.

Episode Resources

• Sink Cleaning Reel (Instagram)

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

Our show is listener-supported. The community of paid subscribers here on Substack makes everything we do possible. Special thanks to our Executive Producers, some of whose names you hear at the end of each show. To join our community of supporters, become a paid subscriber here on Substack.

To search past episodes of the main show or our premium content, check out our content archive.

This podcast and every episode of it are wholly owned by Pantsuit Politics LLC and are protected by US and international copyright, trademark, and other intellectual property laws. We hope you'll listen to it, love it, and share it with other people, but not with large language models or machines and not for commercial purposes. Thanks for keeping it nuanced with us.

Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:00:11] You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. Today, we are joined by Representative Ro Khanna to talk about his discharge petition with Representative Thomas Massey regarding the Epstein files, the government shutdown and what role that has to play, and much more. But before we get to that conversation, we’re going to talk about the ceasefire deal in Gaza. And Outside of Politics, we’re going to talk about cleaning. Does everything need to be cleaned?

Beth [00:00:34] I sure hope not. Our special holiday collection is in full swing and listen, it’s flying off the virtual shelves. People are loving the stickers, the coffee mugs, the Keep It Nuanced 2026 calendar. My personal favorite is the beanie. I think you want to get the beanie. It’s a nice one. We tried to think of something for everyone that could add a little sparkle to the upcoming holidays. This is a limited run sale that runs through next Sunday, October 19th. So just a week left. One time only limited collection of treats. The same kinds of items that were such a hit at our Cincinnati live show now available to our entire community. But remember, this is a pre-order situation. So please get your orders in Sunday, October 19th, get it before it’s gone and give your future self a little present that you’ve already done some holiday shopping.

Sarah [00:01:22] Up next, we’re going to talk about good news coming from Gaza. Beth, we are recording this on Thursday, October 9th, two years and two days after the massacre on October 7th. After years of enormous suffering in both Israel and Gaza, we seem to have reached a ceasefire deal, at least for the exchange of the remaining Israeli hostages in Gaza and a little over 1,000 Palestinian prisoners held in Israel.

Beth [00:02:13] And there is great optimism that this could be the one that holds, that there is some kind of path forward for Gaza post-war. I was thinking about this this morning and just trying to imagine what it would be like if I were in Gaza with my little family, like in the miraculous scenario that we were all still together, that we had all made it and we were still together. What it would have been like to spend these past two years moving constantly, losing so much, worried about how we were just going to feed our kids, just the daily overwhelming horror and how this news might land with me. Like how long it would take even physiologically to sort of allow the idea that the bombing might end, that we might be able to spend a longer term of time, that we might able to rebuild. Just how slowly I think it would wash over me because of how horrific it would be.

Sarah [00:03:32] Yeah, and I keep thinking about these hostages. There’s about 20, they think, left still alive and what it must be like to spend two years of your life in horrific conditions, underground, and how you would ever get over that. You would never get over it. It would be definitive for the rest of your days on this earth. It is truly impossible for me to understand or even at the outer reaches of my imagination, think about either of those scenarios. There’s just been such enormous horror and suffering coming from this part of the globe for these past two years. And let’s be honest, this all didn’t start two years ago, this has been such an impossibly hard conflict between two groups of people for almost 100 years. I am so encouraged by this and I want to give credit where credit is due. I think it speaks to the power of the American presidency and I’m glad that Donald Trump chose to use it. And I wish Joe Biden had chosen to use it much sooner to pressure Benjamin Netanyahu and his government to accept a ceasefire. I think that part of this lays at the feet of that government for dramatically overplaying its hand with the bombing in Qatar. For bombing the negotiators.

[00:05:06] I can’t even imagine what the strategy was there, but that confusion and astonishment has been really my posture towards the Netanyahu government for a long time. So I’m glad that Donald Trump did what he did. He adopted a version of reality and bullied everybody else into accepting it. I think that’s good. And I’m not going to mince words on that. This isn’t a huge accomplishment. Because this isn’t like the previous ceasefire we just got everybody to agree to a deal or to agree to one phase. They presented this as a package. They did see to both Israel and Gaza that they wanted this broken up into phases. Because I understand to negotiate everything that’s going to happen post ceasefire is impossibly hard. But the fact that this has a vision for what comes next to me feels very different. I don’t know how much of Hamas will be included in that vision. They obviously want to be included. I don’t know how much of the PLO will be in included in that vision. But the that fact that there is a structure and a plan for the next day to me feels so different and really promising.

Beth [00:06:21] Yeah, there’s learning in this deal about the parties. There’s integration of, okay, what has fallen apart as we’ve thought we’ve had ceasefires before? How much can we say concretely how much needs to be left to the next step? What role do other partners in the region have to play? I mean, a lot of credit to the Trump administration, also to Qatar, also to Egypt, also Turkey. Also, honestly, I think Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner have done some important work here and I don’t have to endorse the players to recognize the game and to say you have gotten to something that is closer to peace than we’ve been since October 7 two years ago.

Sarah [00:07:07] This affected the whole world, and to me the whole world was involved in this. I think it matters that European states were like we recognize Palestine as a state now. You’ve pushed everyone too far. I think the way that Israel has alienated itself from basically every ally, but the United States, increased the power of the presidency that I was like speaking to. And that wasn’t true when Joe Biden was in office. There was some external international pressure, but not to the level that we currently see. I think that’s a reality we have to acknowledge as well. But I think all of that everybody played a part but a little bit. Everybody played apart. This is affected so many people to see-- and I think it’s hard to be a human in 2025 and have to be exposed to things we didn’t evolve to be expose to, to understand what’s going on around the world at all times. And also, something happens.

[00:08:12] When everybody sees this enormous suffering, when everybody is in conversation, about what this means in a really, really difficult way. This has ripped the Jewish community apart in incredibly painful ways. I think that’s a part of this. I think the way activists pushed and pushed in ways that I thought were unproductive at times, I’m just going to be really honest, but all of that mattered. The sense that everybody was like, what is happening? What is going on? Why are children starving? Why are still people still held underground two years later? That sort of gaping wound affected everybody. I really believe that. You couldn’t look away in a way, even though I know some people felt like so many of us were looking away at different points. But I just think all of that sorrow and anger and frustration and grief and suffering it demanded attention. It demanded attention and it took so much longer than I think any of us thought, any of as hoped, but it feels like the attention just reached a point where powerful people thought, okay, something has to change here.

Beth [00:09:32] I think that there’s a possibility that all that pressure has mounted because of a dynamic that we’ve been discussing in U.S. politics for a while, that there is battle fatigue, metaphorical, literal in every way. Just fatigues. I cannot begin to put myself in a position where I am begging to have the remains of my family member returned to me. That even the body of someone killed in this is being used as leverage, that is just offensive to the human spirit at the deepest level. I was taking this news in this morning. And then also learning about the criminal charges filed against the person who set the palisades fire. And I was thinking about how these are two completely different events, not analogous in any way, except that you look at both and think, someone intended this. Someone chose all this destruction. How can we keep doing this to each other?

[00:10:52] Why would we keep this to other? And for all of his faults I do think one of the better instincts that Donald Trump has is that we should not choose to do this kind of thing to each other. Destruction is senseless. I don’t think he applies that evenly. I understand that he doesn’t uphold everyone’s dignity as a human in the same way. Where it works and helps though, I’m glad for it. And I am glad that it seems to have helped here. And I truly hope that the entire world can go through a process with this region and it will be a process. As you said, these people are changed forever. Generations of people are change forever because of this. But I really hope it leads to a much more peaceful future for everyone.

Sarah [00:11:45] Well, I was thinking about Donald Trump in peace, of course, with this deal and his pursuit of the Nobel Peace Prize, which I think is so easy to scoff at, and I have done my fair amount of it. But I thought, if I could-- I don’t think Donald Trump listens to Pantsuit Politics, but if I could with all the sincerity in my heart, sit in front of him right now, I would say, this is an incredible achievement towards global peace. And also, I believe the Nobel Committee will look at you in totality, and it will be hard to reward your international pursuit of peace, while domestically you are pursuing such aggression towards your own citizens, towards fellow elected leaders, and towards immigrants. Those things have to stand side by side. And to scroll from credit where credit is due, he used the power of the presidency to pursue peace in this intractable conflict.

[00:13:05] Two, he’s calling for the arrest of the governor of Illinois and the mayor of Chicago. He has sent Black Hawk Helicopters to apartment complexes where people were zip-tied naked, where children were traumatized and detained, where he speaks about his citizens, the citizens of the United States, as the enemy within, cannot coexist with this version of a Nobel Peace Prize winner that you believe yourself to be. If you believe in peace, if you believe you are deserving of the Nobel Peace Prize, you have to pursue it domestically. And there is battle fatigue. This conflict with Kristi Noem and the country singer whose name I can’t even think of right now, what that guy’s saying is exactly what you’re articulating. Americans are tired of fighting each other. Americans are tried of fighting with each other. We have had 10 years of anger and deplorables and violence and megalomania, and we’re exhausted. We just want to be fellow Americans again. So if you want that Nobel Peace Prize, why don’t you pursue peace there?

Beth [00:14:24] Yeah, let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me is a good, memorable instruction for life for reasons. And I would love for the president to adopt that. And I think if you look at the last 10 years of us fighting with each other, what do we have to show for it? A lot of the issues that we’re about to talk about with our guest have been percolating for those whole 10 years. We haven’t made any progress. We’re banging our heads against each other. Not even the wall. Against each other and tearing each other down instead of taking the next step and putting some things behind us and moving forward.

Sarah [00:15:03] Well, that’s what I respect about representative Ro Khanna and he names that. I’m tired of fighting. I just try to find places of agreement where I can work with my colleagues. So let’s share that conversation up next with representative Ro Kanna.

Beth [00:15:23] Congressman Khanna, thank you for joining us. Again, we’re so happy to have you back.

Ro Khanna [00:15:26] Thank you. Thanks for having me.

Beth [00:15:28] Help us situate ourselves with where the House Oversight Committee is on the Epstein files. You are pursuing this issue with my representative, Congressman Massey.

Ro Khanna [00:15:39] He’s been great.

Beth [00:15:39] And I’d love you to orient us in time and process a little bit, if you would.

Ro Khanna [00:15:45] Yeah, well, look, Thomas Massey has shown a lot of courage on this. He has defied his own president of his own party. He’s got billionaires putting money in, running ads against him, trying to take him out, all because he partnered with me to hold rich and powerful men accountable for raping and abusing 14 year old girls, underage girls. I’ve met with the survivors. It makes me furious what Epstein and others did to them, telling them in junior high, in high school, not only to get raped, to get abused, but then to go recruit their friends to have the same fate. And some of these survivors don’t remember what happened to them because of the trauma. They want the files released so they can understand how they were abused or raped or assaulted. What Massey and I have said is we need to release these files. We should have a vote on it. Of course, in only Washington you can’t get a vote on something. So we have to go through a process of getting 218 signatures, but we’ve gotten 217 signatures, including three other Republicans, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Nancy Mace, and Lauren Boebert. But now they know that Adelita Grijalva is going to be our 218th signature. So what are they doing? They’ve shut down Congress. I kid you not, they’re not having us vote on anything. We have a shutdown in this country right now. And we need to vote to pay our troops. They’re not even having us vote to pay our troops. Because the minute we have votes, they’re going to have to swear Adelita Grijalva in. The minute she gets sworn in, seven days later we have a vote on the Epstein files and they’re just trying to hide it and it’s shameful.

Sarah [00:17:25] Can you help me understand what we’re talking about when we say the Epstein files? I just feel like the word files does a lot of work here because you get this slow trickle of stuff. We’ve seen a few weeks ago the House Democrats released stuff that had Elon Musk’s name in it. And then you have the flight logs are out there. And so what is left that people have not seen inside these “files”?

Ro Khanna [00:17:49] Yeah, well, we got there two different things. One, I requested files related to Epstein from the Epstein estate. And that’s what we’ve been getting from the oversight committee has released. And that’s just any documentation related to Epstein that they have that in any way was relevant to the investigation. And we’ve gotten a few percent of those things. And that where you saw the references to Elon Musk or the birthday book that Epstein had. There’s a whole separate thing which is what Massey and my bill calls for, and that is the release of the actual files that the government has. Not from the Epstein estate. And that has FBI investigation notes, every witness that the FBI investigated. They write a form that documents that in the conversation. There are witness memorandum there. There are financial records there. It is a whole probe of documents, 300 gigabytes. That’s millions of documents of a year-long investigation by FBI agents and law enforcement agencies into the Epstein matter that has interviews and recordings of tremendous amount of people they talk to and none of that has been released.

Beth [00:19:02] When we talk about releasing those files, is there work that the Oversight Committee is unable to do right now because of its lack of access to information? It’s mystifying to me how we got to the memo that the Department of Justice released this year, basically saying, just kidding everybody, we ourselves have been talking for years about what’s here, but now that we’re in charge, we don’t see anything here. And I would think if I were a member of Congress, I would have a lot of interest in how we go to that memo. Are you able to do your work on the Oversight Committee without this vote in the House?

Ro Khanna [00:19:38] No. I’ll explain why. First of all, they obviously didn’t take it very seriously given that the way we thought to get the documents for the Epstein file. Literally I was on Lawrence O’Donnell’s show on The Last Word and before me there was an attorney for the survivors and he’s like, you know what, I don’t understand it. Why don’t people in Washington, D.C. just ask for some of these documents from the estate? They have them. And so I heard him and I called him up the next day and I said, is it really that simple? He’s like yeah. So we sent a letter to the estate. And lo and behold, they had the documents and they’re giving us the documents. That doesn’t take rocket science. And the fact that the Justice Department and the FBI didn’t even do that shows that they have not really in good faith tried to get the investigation.

[00:20:20] The reality is the House Oversight has also subpoenaed the files from the Justice Department, but they haven’t given us anything. They’ve given us less than 1% and it’s all public information. So now who can enforce the House subpoenas? The Justice department. Do you think Pam Bondi is going to prosecute herself or prosecute attorneys or not get any go over documents? Of course not. So the only way that we can actually compel this is by the force of law, which is if the House passes it, the Senate passes it. And then I guess the president could veto it and we need to have it in a veto proof majority. But I think then the pressure would be so much on them to release the files.

Sarah [00:20:59] Is that what you’re hoping the discharge petition does, is just increase the pressure to the point that they can’t ignore it?

Ro Khanna [00:21:05] I’m hoping that the discharge petition leads to a vote in the House. I’m hoping that vote in House is overwhelming that we get 50, 60 Republicans to vote with us, which I think is possible. It’s one thing to sign a discharge petition to say, hey, we’re going to get something on the floor that the Speaker doesn’t want. It’s another thing when it comes to the floor to say do you believe we should vote for the full release of the Epstein files? And if we get that kind of overwhelming vote, I do think it will increase the pressure on the Justice Department to release it. Now maybe the Senate takes it up; I’m quite hopeful if we get a big vote, they would. But a lot depends on how big the vote is in the House. Is it a veto proof vote or not? How many Republicans actually break with us? And I think it’ll be a large number. I don’t know exactly how many.

Beth [00:21:48] I think it’s really interesting to hear that the victims have asked for these documents to be released since the argument for so long had been that we were keeping them secret to protect the victims. Can you tell us a little bit more about the kinds of conversations that you’ve had with victims and their representatives?

Ro Khanna [00:22:04] It’s been harrowing. The conversations are of them basically not remembering or blacking out what happened to them. The most horrific part was that they were told to get their friends to come in knowing that their friends were going to be raped, about being formed out to other powerful men. One of the victims broke down in tears and said when she went and reported this to the police when she was a teenager, the police said, well, Jeffrey Epstein knows too many politicians and he’s too rich. We can’t do anything. That’s what offends the American people. That rich and powerful men have a different sense of justice. This isn’t a democratic thing or a Republican thing or an independent thing. It’s absurd to think that Marjorie Taylor Greene or Warren Boebert wants to embarrass Donald Trump. This is about standing up for women who are discarded, who are abandoned, who said that their bodies didn’t matter, their autonomy didn’t matter because rich and powerful men decided it didn’t matter. And it’s a symbol, frankly, for a government that has been co-opted and corrupted by powerful interests and that isn’t looking out for forgotten and ordinary Americans. And that’s why this has taken on such a life of its own.

Sarah [00:23:23] So now the future of this is wrapped up in the government shutdown. So what do you anticipate happening next? Speaker Johnson is saying we’re not going to swear in this new member, we’re not going to come back until we’ve negotiated a deal or enough Democrats say they’ll vote for a CR. Where do you see this heading next since now this is kind of wrapped up in the fate of the government shut down?

Ro Khanna [00:23:46] Well, I just hope they open government. First of all, I think that the Republicans could do it today. They have 51 votes in the Senate. They have the House majority. They have the presidency. They have been willing to get rid of the filibuster to confirm judges. They’ve been willing to get of the filibuster to confirm presidential appointments. Why can’t we have an exception to the filibuster when it comes to keeping government open? I believe we should get rid of the filibuster altogether, but at least have an exemption to keep government open. And they can do that. They can do that today. For them to get Democratic votes, if you want my vote, I’m not going to give you that vote if you don’t agree to extend the Affordable Care Tax Credit. I don’t want to see health care double in premium for the American people. But it’s up to them whether they want Democratic votes. They can already keep the government open with the majorities they have. And that is what’s so frustrating.

[00:24:34] The other thing I don’ t see is what is the connection with the House doing our job and voting? We could be voting on pay for troops. We could we voting on back pay for workers. We can be voting on a lot of other issues while the Senate does its work. The reason that the [inaudible] doesn’t want us to vote is because the Epstein files know the day we vote Adelita will be sworn in and then there’ll be a vote on the Epstein files. I also don’t know what they’re trying to do in terms of delay it. They’re hoping the story just goes away. And what happens with these stories is they kind of do get off the front pages, but then they rear their ugly head again as soon as she’s sworn in. And the American people are too tuned in for this to just disappear. And so they’re just punting the football, but it’s not it’s not like the story is going to go away.

Beth [00:25:24] You’re the ranking member on the House Armed Services Committee, as you think about this--

Ro Khanna [00:25:27] The subcommittee for advanced technology. I’m not ranking on the whole committee.

Beth [00:25:33] Okay, thank you for that clarification. How are you thinking about our troops and the possibility of them missing a paycheck in the next week or so?

Ro Khanna [00:25:45] It’s so unfair. They do the toughest thing of any American. They put on the uniform and they put their lives at risk for this country. They often are deployed where they don’t see their kids, they don t see their family for months. And the least we can do is make sure that they get paid. And I don’t understand why we always, when we have a shutdown, say the troops will get paid and we come in and we vote on these troops be paid. [Inaudible]. We could have a vote at any minute to resolve it, and right now there is just complacency out there. And like there’s no urgency. It’s almost like there is not a shutdown. Just la-de-da, la-de-da. Come on. I mean, the country is shut down. The military is not getting paid. This is not some kind of vacation. We should be locked in the Capitol until we get some resolution.

Sarah [00:26:41] What do you think the reason is for that complacency? This also feels very different to me than any other shutdown in the sense that from the Republican party there has been this shrug to people, like you said, that control both Houses and the presidency. And so you’re working with these people day in, day out. In your conversations and over the past few months, what do you point to as why this feels so different this time?

Ro Khanna [00:27:09] I think it’s Donald Trump. He’s not going to; he is not running for re-election. He’s kind of doing things as he wants to do it. And it’s governance by this one man’s whims. When he was president the first time he was concerned about his re-election. He was obsessed about his re-election to the point that he sabotaged his own re-election by minimizing COVID, but everything he was doing was almost kind of a fear of not getting reelected. And I think partly he came in thinking he’s been wronged and he wants retribution. Partly from people close to him they say that he was deeply affected by the assassination attempt, that he thinks he’s been given a God’s lease on life and he wants to do what he wants to do. And partly he thinks he’s president and doesn’t have to answer to someone. So people are just waiting around because it’s not like they think they can make any deal without Donald Trump.

Beth [00:28:01] I think it’s really interesting to hear you say about the Epstein petition that you’re looking for a strong number of Republicans to vote with you once it gets to the floor, that 50 or 60 number that you mentioned. What kind of pressure needs to surface, do you think, to get any sort of movement around ending the shutdown?

Ro Khanna [00:28:19] I think people need to talk about the troops not being paid, about the airport delays that are happening, about some of the airport closures that will happen, about the parks and services that are being affected, about things that are being affected in government services for people in terms of getting their benefits. And need to be speaking out, saying this is not right. It’s not right to people who are serving the country and it’s hurting our quality of life. And there need to be two things that folks are asking. One is that they not have healthcare’s premium spike and doubled, but the other is also that while we’re negotiating this, that the Republicans keep government open or at least swear Grijalva in and have votes.

Beth [00:29:09] As that pain starts to mount, is there a critical mass that you see of your Republican colleagues who could pressure the speaker to get something done?

Ro Khanna [00:29:20] I do. I think with Marjorie Taylor Greene talking about a loss of health insurance and how that’s an affordability crisis is a crack. I mean, you see people now, Republicans, saying, yeah, we can’t have a doubling of 24 million Americans’ health care. Why is that good? If anything, Democrats are offering them a lifeline. We’re the ones saying, like, we don’t want health care costs going up on your watch. If health care goes up on their watch, that’s the easiest thing for the Democrats to win the next election. But Democrats don’t want to win the next selection at the expense of 24 million Americans. So we’re saying we’re willing to work with you, to actually make sure 24 million Americans don’t have double health care premiums. The Republicans would never do it. It’s a blooper on the other foot.

Sarah [00:30:03] I wonder what from your work on the Armed Services Committee-- I know the focus right now is getting the troops paid, but there is also a very interesting conversation happening around these rallies and the nonpartisan nature of our American military. And I wonder from your worked there and what you’re hearing after the general meeting at Quantico and the Navy rally, as far as the just unapologetic, partisan nature of Donald Trump’s relationship to our military?

Ro Khanna [00:30:36] It’s very concerning. The military is the one place that’s not supposed to be politicized in this country and you need people focused on keeping us safe and focused on representing us overseas and with our values. It’s awful to have that be politicized in the way it has to be insulting military officers because of how they look or their weight. We’ve never seen anything like it. But I think people are waking up to how abnormal this is, what Trump is doing.

Beth [00:31:13] I think that talking about where the lines are and what wakes people up to this administration is really important. And my personal obsession right now are the boats being shot down because of suspicion of drug running in the Caribbean Sea. Are we at war with Venezuela? How does Congress understand what the administration is doing here?

Ro Khanna [00:31:40] Well, you’re talking to someone who ran against the first Iraq war in a democratic primary who worked with Bernie Sanders to pass the War Powers Resolution to stop the war in Yemen, the only War Powers Resolution that has ever passed, and who has been a consistent voice in reining in these endless wars that the American president starts. And so what is going on right now is very unfortunate because we’re basically asking for a conflict with Venezuela. Now Maduro in Venezuela is a terrible leader for his own people. But you can’t start a war with every terrible leader in the world. That’s what got us into the mess in Iraq. And I thought J.D. Vance was for restraint. I thought he was not for these endless wars. I thought they were for America first. Instead, they are shooting these ships. First of all, they’re violating the human rights of people there and the rights of folks there because we’re not at war and some of these people may be innocent and not at a trial. And, secondly, they’re basically taunting Venezuela into getting into a war with us, which will have an enormous effect on oil prices and waste a lot of American taxpayer money that should be going to building our communities here at home.

Sarah [00:32:53] I so appreciate you coming here and talking to us. What I always want to ask congress members when they come on our show because I know that people give interviews and people share on social media with their things, some more honestly than others. I don’t know what’s going on with Marjorie Taylor Greene. I am reading her Xs and this sounds like a different person. And so I’m agreeing with her. It’s very disorienting. But I always want to ask, for lack of a better term, what’s the vibe? What is going on? Do you feel like Congress is, particularly on the Republican side of the aisle, completely happy to cede all this authority to Donald Trump as if he is a king? Do you see even more of the cracks behind the scene than we’re seeing? Because I do feel like if I’m seeing them on X, then you have got to be seeing more behind the scenes when it comes to the realization that he’s not immortal and he’s not going to be president forever and there is going to have to be a next chapter. And what does that not only mean for the Republican Party, but what does it mean for Congress that has ceded so much authority?

Ro Khanna [00:33:58] I think we’re seeing cracks, but they’re faint cracks. There’s not yet a rejection of Trump, and he still has huge sway on his party. But the people often say, how do you fight Trump? And I think that there’s the one view, which is just keep insulting him and calling him names, which is what we’ve been doing since 2015 since he walked down the escalator. I personally don’t think that’s been very effective, given just our record. I’ve taken a different approach. I’ve tried to say, how do I build a relationship with someone in the Republican coalition to champion an issue that the American people will agree with that may be oppositional to Trump? And I’ve done that in a number of instances, obviously most prominently with Massey on the Epstein file. But then I’ve got it with Don Bacon, a congressman from Nebraska, and calling for the repeal of the coffee tariffs, which is it makes no sense that we grow only 1% of coffee here. I’ve now reached out to work with Marjorie Taylor Greene on reducing something about our cost of living. So I think what we need to do to overcome Trumpism, instead of just calling him names and having the same attacks on Trump, which have kind of gone stale, and maybe it gets a laugh with the same people who voted for Kamala Harris, but isn’t expanding our base, is we need to build relationships with Republicans who also share some of the frustrations and introduce legislation or bills that will get a broad 60% coalition. And that’s how we overcome Trumpism.

Beth [00:35:33] I think that’s really important. I was going to ask you the last time you were here, we were talking with you about what do Democrats need to do in this moment? And I wonder what all has changed in your mind since the last time we spoke with you in terms of the landscape. It seems to me that those coalitions around specific issues can be one part of that strategy. Are there other things that are really on your mind right now, especially as we approach the midterm elections next year?

Ro Khanna [00:36:01] Well, I think building those coalitions is important. I also think we need to just be more vocal on what’s going on in immigration. We need to start by saying what actually Jensen Wong, the CEO of NVIDIA, said today as a Taiwanese American who’s an immigrant, that immigrants are at the foundation of the American dream. We need have a defense of immigration, that we need to call out what the ICE agents are doing in Chicago. Parading three and four-year-old, five-year old kids out, half naked on the streets, separating them from their parents, harassing American citizens, and we need to call for a clear code of conduct for ICE agents to act constitutionally. I’m also concerned about whether ICE agents will be near the polls to intimidate voters and suppress turnout. So that is an area maybe just given the images and what’s happening these past few weeks, that is very much on my mind and that requires more urgency.

Sarah [00:37:09] Beth, I think there are a lot of weird things happening on Instagram.

Beth [00:37:13] Yeah.

Sarah [00:37:13] Just an evergreen statement. There’s a lot of derivative content. content commenting on other content. Noticed a lot of that. A lot of nostalgia, a lot of clips from like the Cosby show, Rainbow Bride and getting a lot of that. It’s so hard to know when you see things on Instagram, is it a trend or is it just my algorithm?

Beth [00:37:40] Also, when was it posted? Why am I seeing it now when it was originally posted three months ago? What tripped the algorithm to send it my way today? It’s disorienting.

Sarah [00:37:53] All of that to say I’m trying to test to see if is this my algorithm or is this a thing? I’ve just noticed that the cleaning accounts have lost the plot. I saw a reel that I will put a link in the show notes where a woman cleaned the overflow drain of her sink, like squirted this pink foam down the overflow and into the drain and pulled up all this black stuff. And I’m like, yeah, but babe, why? Do we need to clean our overflow drains? Because I feel like never in my whole life have I heard of this. And I guess everybody’s overflow drains are fine. There’s a lot with the cleaning. Even the like house accounts generally, I’ve felt for a while like everyone does not need to have a chandelier in their laundry room. We don’t really need the prettiest laundry rooms on planet earth. It’s okay for some things to just be a little dingy. Do you know what I’m saying?

Beth [00:38:59] Yeah, I do. I find this all like a through-the-looking-glass situation. Yeah. It makes me feel really weird because a part of my brain is like, well, I guess she enjoys cleaning. And then another part of my brain is like maybe you can only teach people how to mop so many times and you got to keep looking for things to keep people engaged. And I do think that--

Sarah [00:39:24] I get that Amazon affiliate link on that pink foam she shoved down the overflow drain.

Beth [00:39:28] And we love a before and after in any context. So showing the grossness and now it’s clean, I get that that captures people’s attention. And then there’s this other segment of our brain that’s like is there something more insidious happening here that I’m like subliminally, subconsciously, I don’t know.

Sarah [00:39:47] I feel like it is. Because people are taking apart their sinks, taking down into the drain and cleaning the bottom part. I’m like, baby, it’s going to the sewer. Who cares what the bottom part looks like? Or taking a part and washing with soap and water every component of their vacuum cleaner. Why? You’re going to put it on the ground; it’s going to suck up dirt again. I understand cleaning the filter for things to run better, but we just keep pushing and pushing. I watched this poor woman, everybody in the comments was like this is not normal. She was bleaching her walls every day, dusting everything in her room, bleaching every wall every day. And everybody’s like, well, this is a mental health problem, not a cleaning account. And then all the way on the other end, there’s the people who want to normalize “a messy house” but it is not a messy house it is a place you cannot walk through. So then I’m like, but we don’t need that either. What’s happening?

Beth [00:40:53] I don’t know. I just have always loved moderation in pretty much all things. And that’s kind of how I feel about cleaning. I just want to find like a nice moderate place where things are mostly picked up, but you have a junk drawer. You let your laundry room be a laundry room, and we all do our best to get through the day together. Both ends of that spectrum are so strange to me.

Sarah [00:41:16] Listen, my house is clean. I’m just going to tell you right now. My standards are probably a little higher. You can thank Lisa Hughes for that. Because she had one child. That was a real disservice she did to me, putting the standard in my head and now I have three boys. But my house is pretty clean and I have cleaning ladies, Rose and Laura, who come every two weeks. And they are blessed members of our family. So I have help, so I have a high standard. And it’s not because of anything other than I just don’t function well. My brain stays busy if it’s going, pick that up, pick that, pick it up, put that away, put that way. And also you don’t need to be able to eat off everything. You don’t to be to be able to eat off your vacuum cleaner. You don’t need to be eat off the inside of your refrigerator. You don’t need to able to have a spick and span drain. Be cool. You know what I’m saying? Just like be cool. Because I think that cleaning accounts maybe are finding a little drop off since COVID because that’s when we were all soaking our laundry. And I really did need to clean the filter on my dishwasher. That was a thing that I’m happy someone taught me to do. It was an important thing I was not doing.

Beth [00:42:32] No, I was in it with these accounts during COVID, 100%.

Sarah [00:42:34] Yeah, so and I just think now they’re just trying to find-- there must be a push. It’d be so fascinating to get a little tree serum in one of these accounts and be like, okay, but... And listen, maybe I’m part of the problem. I have my teenagers out there cleaning people’s trash cans. That was not a thing we ever did growing up like making sure your trash can was clean So I don’t know. It feels like there must be some sort of always like what’s the next thing we can show people they can clean and particularly sell them a product too clean? But I got to draw a line in the sand. I’m not cleaning my overflow drain.

Beth [00:43:10] Well, and none of that’s really about cleaning, right? That’s just all about content creation and algorithms and the push to always be offering something new, always be offer something unique, but not too unique, just within the little band of what’s working today. It’s a crazy world that we live in.

Sarah [00:43:28] Well, the hopeful thing that I will share that I’m sharing on the Good News Brief next week, a little sneak peek for y’all, is that I do think we’re reaching peak social media. I felt it for a while and I think it’s true, particularly the younger people. Like, particularly around Griffin’s age. I think they’re just like enough of this hellscape, get me out of here. And these cleaning videos are just going to keep fueling that fire.

Beth [00:43:50] Another brick in the wall.

Sarah [00:43:51] Another brick and the wall protecting us from the clunkers. Yes, that’s what we’re looking for. Because let me tell you what I don’t want. I don’t want Sora. Why would anyone on planet earth want to go to a social media channel built on AI slot videos of Tupac walking around Cuba and Michael Jackson stealing chicken? What are we doing?

Beth [00:44:17] This is my experience with much of the world right now. I just look at everything and think, why? Why? Why does someone want this? I don’t want this. I don’t know anybody who wants this. What are we doing?

Sarah [00:44:27] What are we doing? In summary, everyone, what are we doing?

Beth [00:44:31] Except for Representative Conner, who I really was impressed with today. I don’t say that lightly.

Sarah [00:44:38] I know what he’s doing. He’s trying to get us those damn Epstein files. I can answer that question very clearly.

Beth [00:44:42] But like in a number of respects, he is trying to get some things done and I appreciate it.

Sarah [00:44:51] Okay. Love it. All right, well, friendly reminder, we are leaving town. Thank you so much for joining us today. We will be both in Switzerland all next week, leading a trip with Common Ground Pilgrimages. We’re excited to see some of you there. We will still have new episodes in your feeds though, including some really great conversations we recorded about climate change and SNAP benefits. Don’t forget to check out our limited run holiday treats while you can and until Tuesday, keep it nuanced, y’all.