My politics tells me which rules I have to follow

Shots fired at the WHCD and the lines we keep crossing

On Sunday afternoon, my friends and I were setting up for a game of mahjong when the White House Correspondents’ Dinner shooting came up. “Do we think that was real? Do we think this question is crazy?” I could feel myself tearing up as I said, “I have to talk about this in public.”

Today, Sarah and I talk about it in public. I hope our conversation is valuable to you. - Beth

Topics Discussed

• Shots were fired at the White House Correspondents’ Dinner on Saturday, and the conspiracy theorizing was instantaneous

• Political violence is reshaping American public life

• Anti-authority sentiment in American Politics

• Moral Relativism, Shoplifting, and Models of Ethical Grounding and Civil Society

• Outside of Politics: Spotify’s 20th anniversary most-streamed list and our reactions

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Episode Resources

Pantsuit Politics Resources

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Episode Resources

• Cole Tomas Allen, Correspondents’ Dinner Shooting Suspect, Was Propelled by Outrage, Authorities Say (The New York Times)

• Opinion | ‘The Rich Don’t Play by the Rules. So Why Should I?’ (The New York Times)

• The New York Times has a culture problem (The Argument)

• Spotify 20 (Spotify)

Episode Transcript

Sarah 0:30

This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth 0:31

This is Beth Silvers. You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. Today, we are discussing the shots fired at the White House Correspondents Dinner Saturday night and what it, plus just a whole run of anti-authority, vibes, sentiments, actions on display are telling us about the status of our American social contract. And then Outside of Politics, we’ll take a hard turn. Spotify dropped its 20th anniversary list of most streamed artist albums and songs, and it is a journey to go on, and we’ll take that journey together.

Sarah 1:05

If you, like us, found yourself in some very intense conversations over the weekend about political violence and maybe some conspiracy theories, we’d love for you to send this episode to your group text. It is the best, most impactful way to share our show with the people in your lives who you think would benefit from listening.

Beth 1:24

Next up, let’s talk about what happened Saturday night.

Sarah 1:34

Beth, I would love to talk about my son’s prom. Is that what you meant by Saturday night?

Beth 1:39

It was a beautiful spring weekend.

Sarah 1:41

It really was, and I resent that I opened my phone and it was tainted.

Beth 1:47

Chad and I had been standing outside in our backyard after some mulching and lots of yard work, and I said to him, “We should live here. It’s just perfect here. We should live here.” And then we came in and picked up our phones and the first text I saw before I had even seen a breaking news headline, the first text I saw was like, “This isn’t real, is it?”

Sarah 2:09

I was at a baby shower on Sunday. Somebody leaned across the table and said, like, do we believe it’s real? I was on Instagram that night posting about prom, really leaning in, and I’m telling you, within an hour, I saw a reel where a guy had said, “Did you hear what happened at that dinner?” And he was just wrapping his head in tin foil and making himself a tin foil hat. And then the comments were like, yeah, Trump’s polls go down, and this happens, and he’s just trying to distract. I mean, it was instantaneous- the conspiracy theories.

Beth 2:43

Everybody had a theory of what happened before we really had any facts about what happened, and those facts are still coming together, as we are recording on Monday morning. This morning, we have added to a picture of the shooter Cole Thomas Allen, a 31 year old man from California who took trains to the event. And the New York Times shared some writings attributed to him that show someone in real conflict. He talks a lot about his love of family and friends and how they’ve been so supportive of him, and also his anger about this White House. The New York Times says he alluded to allegations of sexual misconduct, saying that he is, quote, no longer willing to allow a traitor to coat my hands with his crimes. The writing does not mention the president by name. Authorities have said several times that he seemed to be targeting members of the administration. And that’s about what we know as we sit down today to talk about what this tells us about where we are as a country,

Sarah 3:45

well, we know a lot about the people who were in the room, including the entirety of this line of succession, except for 80 million year old Chuck Grassley, which is very concerning that this wasn’t given the security designation that it deserved, considering how many people in the line of succession were in the room. The Washington Hilton itself has a history of political violence. It’s where President Reagan was shot. It’s why they did all these renovations. That’s why they have the Washington’s Correspondence Dinner there, because they have a secure green room, and he has his own entrance and all these things. And also, just I was so struck by the people in the room who’ve been touched by political violence already. There’s a virality of Erica Kirk weeping as she’s leaving the ballroom. I mean, when I was reading about that and the story was like, well, her own husband was shot six months ago. And I thought six months? It feels like five years ago. I cannot believe it was that soon. So you have a very, very recent victim of political violence all the way back to Robert Kennedy Jr, whose father was assassinated. Steve Scalise was there. He was shot at a baseball game. And of course, this is the third assassination attempt against President Trump. It’s just the prevalence is overwhelming. It’s just overwhelming.

Beth 5:14

That prevalence is paradoxically something that makes it so believable that this happened, and that makes us want to believe that it was staged. Because it is unmooring to have a shooting in the news. I feel it in my body whenever a shooting is in the news, especially a shooting at a place like this, where you think, if that room wasn’t secure, what room is secure? I went on a whole mental train about this Friday night. I went to a baseball game with friends, and I was thinking about how normal it’s become to have your bag searched to get into a baseball game. We’ve been going to games at Great American ballpark for 20 years now, and this is relatively new, but it’s become normalized for us. And I hated that feeling as it occurred to me, and that was before the shooting was in the headlines. It just does something to us psychologically to be thinking about how this could happen anywhere, at any time, for any reason.

Sarah 6:20

I keep thinking about that terrible shooting in Louisiana where the man came and shot like eight of his own children and how I struggled thinking about it, and I ended up deciding not to cover on the News Brief because I thought, what can I add? What can I add to this, except for the reality of gun violence in America? And there is a similar sense in this face of this shooting; although, thank God it didn’t have anywhere near the loss of life the other shooting had, which at this point, the prevalence of guns and particularly the political violence which this president unapologetically stokes. I mean, Charlie Kirk doesn’t feel like six months ago, but it was just a couple weeks ago where he was delighted that Robert Mueller had died, and was like, I’m so glad he died. He didn’t die from political violence. But how long ago were we talking about RFK and the CDC and how Trump never even spoke to the fact that that building was attacked, that a federal building was attacked, and he had about two hot minutes where he said we were all together. It was like the whole country was there. I was going to attack them, and now I’m not going to. Or I feel differently about it now and then by Sunday night it’s the radical Democrats fault. And every other Republican Jim Jordan, Ron Johnson, are out there saying, see, this is why we need the ballroom. That’s why we need the secure ballroom. See, We’re at war with these people. It’s depressing. It’s just really, really depressing.

Beth 8:27

It took me a few beats to understand what the ballroom had to do with this at all. I couldn’t believe that that was the rushed talking point that emerged on the right about this. This is why we need the ballroom for real? Definitely, this president has not created a culture of respect for life. It was just Easter when he posted on truth social the threat to wipe out a civilization in Iran. Something has broken in us around any kind of floor past which we will not descend when we’re talking about the humanity of people who see the world differently than ourselves. And that has created conditions where I understand people thinking that this is a president capable of staging an assassination attempt, and I hate that feeling. I felt so gross this weekend because of how much I understand why this is a part of the discourse now that we’ve just lost so much shared context and faith in each other that we don’t have a person in the office who we would think what, Of course, he wouldn’t do that in danger. All these people? put the press in danger? All of this that should seem beyond the pale does not seem beyond the pale right now. And I feel really torn up about that internally because it’s bad for me. Not because I’m scolding anyone else, because I feel it in my own body how destructive it is to be in this headspace.

Sarah 10:10

I mean, beyond the pale is this entire brand. This is the pitch. It’s I’ll say, get them. Remember the crowds at his rallies in 2015/2016 that he would encourage to attack protesters. I just feel like the fork in the road was when he told us all, “I could shoot someone in the middle of Times Square, and people would still support me.” We bring that up all the time because it was just the truest thing he’s ever said. Not only can I espouse political violence, I could commit violence, and people would still stand by me. And we have seen his ability to espouse all kinds of immoral positions, policies, to stand at Charlie Kirk’s funeral and say, “I hate my enemies. I hope they die.” Beyond the pale is him. And so there is a part of me that’s like this is the cancer. This is the cancer he has wrought. That we have all decided that if I disagree with you politically, that changes how I treat you ethically and morally because we’re enemies. I mean, that’s the language he used. Even from the first assassination attempt. This fight language. Using a political violence against himself and others like Charlie Kirk to heighten scrutiny and attacks on his political enemies. I’m sitting here thinking like, oh, I’m attacking him when he’s just had an assassination attempt. I’m saying like, this is what you have wrought. But I don’t know what else to say. I don’t know what else to say. He exhibits no concern when there is political violence against other Americans who he deems as enemies or otherwise. And there’s always this glimmer of him wanting to bring the country together, but I don’t think he has the capacity to do that. I don’t think he has the capacity to approach political violence, political disagreement, political polarization, partisanship, with anything but an instinct to fight.

Beth 12:55

Listening to conversation about this at Mahjong yesterday, as I did, there was a moment when I felt this catch in my throat like I was going to start crying, and I just said, I have to talk about this in public, and I don’t know how. I respect his life. I don’t want the president to be murdered. I don’t want the country to go through the trauma of the President being murdered. I certainly don’t want the country to go through that trauma right now when we’ve seen so many high profile events of violence. And the way that we respond to them, it’s so ugly. I don’t want that for us. So I think it’s different to acknowledge the way that he fundamentally has changed the way we talk about each other, than to wish him dead. And I don’t wish him dead.

Sarah 13:51

To me, it’s the coarsening. And it’s not just his language or about how he approaches political debate or competition. It is the environment that his policies create. It is the rich getting richer. It’s the pardons. It’s the, well, my friends get a no bid million dollar contract through the National Park Service. Or my friends can call and get their ex-wives deported. Or my friends get protected and blacked out in the Epstein files. I think it is this sense of our chief executive officer, the person who is tasked with enforcing the rule of law that says the rules apply to everyone equally, is unabashedly tearing that apart. Now the rules don’t apply equally to me or to the rich or to the powerful or whoever has my cell phone number. They don’t follow the same rules that the rest of you follow. And that’s why you hear about somebody like this, that everybody’s like he was a nice, normal guy. We couldn’t believe it. And it feels disorienting but also not surprising at the same time because I think it’s in the water right now in America that the system is not fair. The rules do not apply fairly or equally at all.

Beth 15:38

I think part B of that that’s equally important is no one’s doing anything about it. There are a lot of people who couldn’t name some of those headlines that you did, who couldn’t talk about the contracts or the cryptocurrency schemes, but they definitely know about Epstein and can’t believe that no one’s doing anything about that. They definitely see this war in Iran as something that’s so destructive and senseless, and no one’s doing anything about that. The main thing I think that comes through about the midterm elections is, do you want more of the same or do you want to elect Democrats to make it harder for him to do whatever he wants to do? That’s not a very inspiring message, and that helplessness pushes people into spaces where they say, you know what, maybe it wouldn’t have been so bad if they hit him. Or, you know what, maybe he faked it. The whole conversation we had about the assassination of the United Healthcare CEO, I think is a manifestation of this sense that something is deeply wrong. Almost everyone has a story of personal suffering because of that deep wrong, and it feels like no one’s doing anything about it. And so authority has become only the negative, only the people who take advantage of these systems, not an outlet for the people who can actually help. I think that’s why you see an anti-authority posture almost everywhere right now, and we’re going to talk about that next.

Sarah 17:46

I think describing it as anti-authority is really helpful. I think that names the change I’ve seen from like a populist uprising. I think you see it in lots of places. It’s not necessarily populism, which is what Donald Trump wrote in on. This sort of outsider distrust of the elites that has become a distrust of everything- the facts, the people in charge, the systems, the institutions. And it’s not that we just want an outsider. We’ve talked about the nihilism before. It’s nothing changes, right? Like, who cares? Who cares really? it’s not who cares who’s in charge whether it’s an outsider or not. The outsiders got in charge and they became the worst of the elites. They used the swamp to their advantage. And I think that sort of anti-authoritarianism that you see is a reaction to, well, I don’t want change in my favor. Instead, it’s I don’t want change; I want revolution. I don’t want to fiddle with who’s in charge. I want to tear it all down.

Beth 19:20

I wonder if it’s anti authority more than anti authoritarianism. And what I mean is that it doesn’t feel particularly political to me. And I don’t know that most people want a particularly political answer. When you say people want revolution, it sounds like overthrow of existing government and creation of a new one. And I just don’t hear anyone who’s hungry for that because I think most people still want the things that work about American society. I think most people deeply desire a sense of order in their communities. They deeply desire a functioning school board. They would like to believe their member of Congress can be helpful. So revolution doesn’t feel exactly right to me either. I think there is just this unbelievable wariness that is translating to anger. And it’s political, yes, for all the reasons we’ve talked about. It’s also about AI and jobs and data centers. It’s also about getting 300 spam calls a day and emails from the school that are too long to understand and terms and conditions every time I try to open any website. I think that there’s just this smallness that is lived in every day right now because we’re in the midst of so much bigness. I’m having trouble describing exactly how I feel, but I want to figure out more precise words because I think you’re right that populism isn’t it right now. It’s something else. And I just wonder how much that something else lives within and without politics, or it straddles it.

Sarah 21:13

I just don’t think people can name what works. I mean, it’s not that they want it to work. They can’t name what works. There is a problem with every aspect of everyday American life. I just read a piece of New York Times. People can’t afford cars. There’s not like basic economic, affordable models of cars. There’s not enough housing. The housing we have is expensive. Healthcare costs are out of control. The public school system is struggling. People are worried about jobs because there’s not a lot of hiring because of AI. There’s data centers, there’s this tearing down of all these environmental regulations. The same time people are seemingly more concerned with toxicity in their food. We’ve got measles outbreaks, you name it. The health, safety, and law and order, the most basic functions of government of what they’re supposed to offer to their citizens, there’s no place to look right now and see functioning, just basic functioning, much less a vision for the future that’s encouraging or exciting or positive. I think that’s why, on the flip side, you do see positive examples. And the one I keep thinking about is Pope Leo. I think he is presenting what people want, an acknowledgement that things are hard, that there are standards that matter and rules that people should follow, and a clarity about what is required as we move into a tougher future. There’s no articulation of requirement. I think that’s why if you live an extremely online life and you saw this opinion piece in New York Times that particularly right wing figures are trotting out right now post the White House Correspondents shooting, where they were basically proposing the term micro looting. So, like, well, everything sucks, so who cares if you steal from Whole Foods. I am greatly reducing the overall argument of this piece. But the sense of, like, I’m getting scammed left, right and center. Who knows if I have social security and retirement? I’m going to pirate what I want to pirate. I’m going to steal from Walmart if I want to. The rich people don’t follow the rules. Why should I? This sort of just complete breakdown in what we understand as a society as acceptable behavior.

Beth 24:28

When you made the list of all the problems, I was hearing it thinking, yes, these are not really debatable propositions. And also it reminds me of the polling when people say they can’t stand Congress, but they like their member. Because I think in specific, a large number of people still do live very rewarding lives, and I think that’s part of why Pope Leo lands as well because he says, we can confront the injustices of the past and the present while still holding on to our joy and our connection to other people, and that’s what we must do. In fact, those two things have to go together. I would love to see political figures who can speak into that. And I think we have some emerging. It’s going to be really difficult to break through as a political leader because of this cancer that you named in the first segment, because of our skepticism about political figures and their motivations and their funding, just the sheer amount of money required to run a good campaign leaves everyone feeling very skeptical about the sincerity of what they’re hearing. When I read that micro looting piece, it just landed with such a thud to me because I thought, actually, no one wants this. I understand that personal feeling. I’m just going to return this to Walmart because it’s [inaudible] Walmart’s back. And we spent a lot of the last election talking about how upset people were that shampoo and conditioner and deodorant had to be locked up at Walgreens because the prevalence of theft. We don’t want to live in a society where people steal. I think most of us do want there to be grounded principles that we all agree on. We value the truth. We don’t steal from one another. We would like to be able to assume everyone has positive intention again. How do we get there?

Sarah 26:44

I would love new and robust polling, or maybe a focus group or two on that paradox of congressional support, if it’s still true, if it’s more complex, do I approve them just because I feel like what does it matter? Like, I can’t. They’re so set in stone. They’ve been there for 20 years. What am I going to do about it? I think that’d be kind of interesting to scratch at. I think we’ve gotten to this place where my politics defines my ethics. Who I define as my political enemy is inherently tied to what I will justify or condone when it comes to actions against them. This idea that you’re morally repugnant if you steal music from an indie band, but who cares if you steal it from Best Buy? That’s not sustainable. This is not the subjectivity of that approach to our individual actions. I just don’t think it’s going to work. I really appreciated the arguments critique of this particular “cultural” piece from the New York Times, which is politics is not where you want to find your ethics and morals. That’s not how you want to define what’s acceptable to you, and what is not is based on who it is. And if you had a political expert and a policy expert involved in this conversation called it politics analysis, it’d be very different. I think there is this sense of if everybody can have an opinion-- and not only can everybody be paid to have an opinion, but everybody can find a platform through social media to have an opinion. It creates fertile ground to not only ignore the very real expertise that’s needed inside particularly policy conversations, but also just to turn stuff that matters isn’t that as impactful and it’s just fodder for a funny haha conversation using Tik Tok reels as you’re jumping off point. And I think the reason that people are looking for places that offer guidelines, strict rules, moral codes-- it’s not just Pope Leo. The Catholic Church has seen a lot of surge in interest, which I think is fascinating. Of all the Christian denominations, Catholics have the most rules. Because I do think people don’t want that moral relativism of like, well, everybody can just decide based on how high their health insurance bill was or what trauma they’ve experienced in a hospital, if the murder of a man on the street is okay or not. That is its own type of instability. That is its own type of moral injury. And I know there’s not an easy answer to that, but the idea that you get a couple people in the room that say it’s not hard to get a couple people in the room that say, yeah, but they’re worse, so that makes us okay. Good content, to me, is not the answer to the moral relativism of Donald Trump.

Beth 31:01

The other thing that I think is helpful that we find in religious practices is the practice component, and I think that that’s what is so alarming to me about the shooting at the White House Correspondents Dinner. I can feel my brain reviewing what we practice politically. Was it deserved or not? Is it true or not? What motivations does everybody bring to the table when they roll their takes out? I’m living the result of what we practice politically. And so what I’m looking for, and what I think a lot of people are looking for right now, are places where we practice something else, but in a bigger context. Because when I talk about a vision for the world, and I think that’s so much of what faith is, what’s my vision for the world? What’s my vision of being a person here and my place in the order of things? It isn’t about relativism. It isn’t about anyone else’s hypocrisy. And it’s grounding to think these are things that are true. These are stories that have endured for reasons. These are rituals that plug me back in to those stories and truths that endure, and I need that because the practice of pointing out the hypocrisy is so well worn in my brain at this point.

Sarah 32:47

I’m not advocating everybody become Catholic. I just want to be abundantly clear on that. I think there are lots of spaces you can find what you just described, but I think we need more louder voices that say this is wrong. And it’s not wrong because we’re all supposed to feel sorry for Walmart or Whole Foods. That’s not it.

Beth 33:13

Or the president.

Sarah 33:14

This is wrong because of what it does to you. This is wrong because of what it does to us. One of the only parts of the micro leading conversation I found some agreement was the idea that even if you’re looking to express political discontent, that’s not the way to do it. That’s an individual hidden action that doesn’t help anything. It doesn’t change the policies of Whole Foods. It doesn’t lead to increased taxes on the rich. It doesn’t equalize our tax system or anything else. It’s just a pressure valve release. And now look, in the face of increased political violence, is there room for more pressure release? Sure, but if we cannot find some places of common agreement as a society over behaviors that we find harmful, not only to the person but to society as a whole, we’re in trouble. Then it’s just all politics. Politics in service of what? Politics should be in service of persuasion and civic participation and governmental efficiency and representative democracy, not just for rage bait and clicks, likes and shares. So I think the more voices we find that say I operate on a different value system. I’m not just trying to get your attention. I’m trying to share my approach to the world. Be it religiously grounded, be it strong, intellectual analysis, be it ethical complexity. I think there’s a lot of ways to approach this philosophically, spiritually, mentally, psychologically, but emotionally, seems to be like the only name of the game.

Beth 35:31

I had a conversation with someone who’s running for office right now last week, and I asked how this person’s doing, because it’s such a grueling campaign. And the person said however it turns out, I’ll be okay. I’ll get up the next day, keep doing my best. And I wish for more people like that in our public life because that, to me, is the path back to valuing authority figures as groups of people willing to take on responsibility, not people trying to impose their vision on everyone else, or people just trying to take as much from public office as they can. And I hope that the midterm elections give us a chance to think about how we walk back from anti authority, not to authoritarian but to that place where we can have a civil society bound by rules that we agree to follow because we willingly accept the presence of authority in our lives as necessary to our flourishing. We always end with something Outside of Politics because we really need to. And today we’re going to talk about Spotify, which has been really the dominant business model of recorded music for the last 20 years. And as I was looking at the list, Sarah, of the top artist and the top songs, it made me realize that my window of music is now like 30 years out, instead of 20 years out, because there was a lot here that I just thought, that’s not really my music. I’m too old for this.

Sarah 37:21

Well, I found the top 20 artist a real journey. Okay? Taylor Swift. Everybody goes, yep, sure, great. I listened to that. Fine. No surprises there, right? No Beyonce on the list. Zero Beyonce in the top 20. Definitely would have been probably who I would have guessed as number two. Beyonce has put out so many albums. Meanwhile, Rihanna, who hasn’t put out an album in years, is number 16. So particularly through the lens of like female artists, I was like, whoa! Billie Eilish, way up there. No Sabrina Carpenter-- now she’s pretty new. That makes a little bit more sense to me. Number two, Bad Bunny. Okay, cool. Sure got it. Number three, Drake. What? I thought he lost the feud? He’s three. Kendrick Lamar is 18. So I don’t know. Man, I don’t know if he lost that feud.

Beth 38:22

Well, and the Weekend pops up everywhere in these lists because of Blinding Lights and the way it’s had several different lives, but I think of the Weekend as almost a one hit wonder. That’s the only song I can name. I remember the SNL performance. I remember the Super Bowl, but that felt like just sort of a blip to me. And then when I put it in the context of the last 20 years, it was a pretty big blip, I guess.

Sarah 38:48

Yeah. So he’s number four. Ariana Grande five. Great. Got it. Okay. I wouldn’t have put her way ahead of Beyonce, but here she is. Ed Sheeran got it. No surprises there. Justin Bieber, okay, maybe, probably wouldn’t put him this high, but okay. Billy Eilish, then Eminem. I’m like, what? What do you mean?

Beth 39:12

The kids love Eminem. Eminem is having a whole new life with the youth of today.

Sarah 39:17

All right, I like that. I like Eminem. Kanye is out here at 10. He’s made a lot of music. Some of this, like, I wonder it’s-- the Weekend had one good song, but then a lot of people just put out a lot of albums. It’s like all over the place. Travis Scott, definitely not my music, not my jam. I know him, though, so I wasn’t too surprised by that; although, I would have never put him in the top 20. BTS is 12. If you told me the Spotify top 20 artist that Drake would have been three and BTS would have been 12, I’d have told you were crazy.

Beth 39:52

Is that a timing issue, though? If you scoot that window forward a little bit, I wonder what happens. Does BTS overtake?

Sarah 39:59

Well, they also disappeared for a long time. Maybe that’s part of it, too. Okay, then you have Post Malone, sure. Bruno Mars, okay. Jay Balvin, who the hell’s that?

Beth 40:09

I don’t know.

Sarah 40:11

I don’t either. They’re 15. What the hell? Okay. Then Rihanna. Then Coldplay, which also probably wouldn’t have put in the top 20.

Beth 40:22

Yellow is in the top 20 songs.

Sarah 40:25

Listen, you know what, I like Coldplay. I’m not sorry about it either. I don’t care if it makes me sound old. They make good music.

Beth 40:32

I like Coldplay too, but I don’t put Coldplay on repeat in my car. That’s why it’s surprising to me.

Sarah 40:37

Well, I used to, but probably not in the last 20 years. Okay, Kendrick Lamar is 18. Future is19; 20 Juice World. Who the hell’s that?

Beth 40:45

I don’t know.

Sarah 40:47

But they’re top 20, Beth. Are we that old?

Beth 40:53

Yes.

Sarah 40:55

I don’t like it, and I reject it, and I’m not that old. And stop calling me old.

Beth 41:03

Look, I listen to and enjoy and know a lot of new music, a lot of the Grammy, new artist of the year people I’m really into.

Sarah 41:14

I’m the biggest Olivia Dean fan on planet Earth.

Beth 41:16

And I noticed with the weather getting nice, I wanted to listen to 90s country music. I wanted to listen to Indigo Girls. Every single thing that I was craving musically over the weekend is 30 years old or more.

Sarah 41:34

Well, I’m working on this. I’m really trying to stay young at heart and not-- I was listening to Jen Sherman on my peloton ride this morning talking about how she stays young at heart. She stayed up to like 2:30 watching Justin Bieber at Coachella, which I will not be doing anytime soon. But I don’t know. I think it’s just the part of the Spotify discussion is how hard Spotify makes it to find new music and new artists because it will feed this sense of what you’re “craving”. Although, often when I’m really in the mood for something that I can’t quite name, I can never get there on Spotify. Like, I will follow the songs I love and I will listen to them, and it’s just never quite that itch that I’m looking to scratch, and I think it’s because I’m probably looking for something new.

Beth 42:29

I don’t ask Spotify for a lot of curation help because my Spotify is shared with my daughters, and therefore it does not know much about me. I don’t look at my Wrapped usually because it says way more about them than me. I think universally, if you took my whole family and said, over the last 20 years, what have you listened to the most on Spotify? It would be Hamilton, for sure, because we all enjoyed it and have listened to it on repeat for pretty much that window of time. It was popular then it wasn’t, then it was again and it was it stayed popular for us the whole way through. I don’t really use Spotify to discover new music as much as honestly now I discover new music through my kids. What they’re listening to becomes what I’m listening to, and then I enjoy it and leave it on and recommendations follow that. And so I guess I probably do get to a lot of new music through Spotify just because I share it with them.

Sarah 43:23

I am pretty aggressive about not sharing my Spotify with my children, so they have free accounts. They have to listen to ads. I’m not letting them into my paid world because I do like my Wrapped. I do share with my husband who has different tastes than me, so that will sometimes affect my Wrapped. But like Noah Khan was like a shared love between both of us that was like very-- and he was new to me. And I’m so glad that I found him because I love his music so much. He’s got a new album. I’m so excited about it. I think about who I love now like Brandy Carlile who was new to me five years ago. I really want to leave space for that. And I do think sometimes like Spotify makes it hard. It’s not even new artists. It’s like new types of music. It’ll just be like, well, I know what you like, so here’s more of it. I’m like, well, maybe I could learn something new. Maybe you could teach this old dog a new trick or two.

Beth 44:16

I do find a lot of new to me, though, in those genres of what I like. Spotify will introduce me to lots of new artists If I say, like, play a Patty Griffin song, and it does, then I’ll find all kinds of indie folk musicians Americana that I don’t know. And I appreciate that. I think that’s part of staying young at heart, too, just being open in general.

Sarah 44:39

Yeah, for sure. Well, we want to hear what your choices are, what you were surprised to see on this list, what you listen to on Spotify. People love to share their thoughts on the Outside of Politics.

Beth 44:55

We’re so glad that you do. Thank you for spending time with us today. We’re going to be back with you on Friday with a very special conversation. Rahm Emanuel will be here to talk about a number of policy proposals that he’s rolled out that do not sound like the same old politically. And I think that he might be finding a spot around authority that is useful and constructive and reflective of the public will that I could get behind. So we’ll see how that conversation goes. We’re excited to share it with you on Friday. Hope that between now and then you have the best week available to you.

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

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