First Ladies: Past, Present, and Melania

The real power behind so many presidencies

We are honored to have author Diana Carlin with us today to talk about the role of First Lady — both in its history and the modern approach our recent and current First Ladies have taken. Plus, outside of politics, Sarah and Beth share their Thanksgiving must-haves.

Topics Discussed

• First Ladies Past and Present with Diana Carlin

• Outside of Politics: Thanksgiving Favorites

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Episode Resources

• Join us in Minneapolis next year!

  2026 Events

• Remember the First Ladies: The Legacies of America’s History-Making Women by Diana Carlin

• Thanksgiving Sides Reel (Instagram)

Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:10] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:11] This is Beth Silvers. You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. Today, we are sharing a conversation Sarah had with Diana Carlin, author of Remember the First Ladies. Both of our most recent first ladies, Jill Biden and Melania Trump, have taken very unique approaches to the role in very different ways. Sarah spoke with Diana about the history of the role and her perspective on their choices, and we are delighted to share that conversation with you today. And then Outside of Politics, this will probably generate more controversy than anything we’ve ever discussed, Sarah.

Sarah [00:00:43] Absolutely. I can’t wait.

Beth [00:00:43] We’re going to talk about our favorite Thanksgiving sides and desserts.

Sarah [00:00:49] Let’s do it. We’re getting to the end of the year. And this is when we start thinking about our word for 2026. And I think the word-- I’m not even picking my own word because I just think this is the word for all of humanity, and I want to lean into that. And it is analog. We’re doing things analog style. We’re going to gather in person. We’re going to get off our phones. We’re going to knit. We’re going to read books. We’re going to have an analog bag. We might be getting up real cameras. I don’t know. Just lots of analog. We are leaning into that word here at Pantsuit Politics. So next year, save the date, August 27th through 29th, analog style, we’re gathering in person for a live show in Minneapolis and a first of its kind spice conference. We’ve wanted to come to the Twin Cities for years and years because so many of our listeners live there, and we’re finally making it happen. You are invited to join us on Saturday, August 29th for a live show and after party at the Hyatt Centric. It will be high energy, thoughtful, and a fun live version of Pantsuit Politics. If you’ve ever been to one of our live shows, you know what a joyous, inspiring time it is. And if you haven’t been before the this is your chance.

Beth [00:01:57] But it’s not just the live show. We are going to put together our first ever Spice Conference, which will be open to our premium members. We call our premium members the Spice Cabinet. Actually, we don’t call them that. They named themselves that and we love it. The conference will kick off on Friday night, August 28th, with a welcome party. Saturday before the live show we’ll offer engaging sessions and fun activities and chances to connect with other listeners from Minneapolis and across the country. And then to top it off, we are offering an executive producer retreat as we did in Cincinnati. So executive producers will come together on Thursday, the 27th, for a full extra day of activities. So much analog gathering happening, so many chances to touch and feel and be in person together and eat and have experiences and make memories and meet new people. So please mark your calendars August 27th through 29th. We would love to spend time with you face to face.

Sarah [00:02:48] Up next, my conversation with Diana Carlin. Diana Carlin, welcome to Pantsuit Politics.

Diana Carlin [00:03:05] Well, thank you for the invitation. Looking forward to the discussion.

Sarah [00:03:09] Listen, first ladies are my favorite political topic. That’s just the long and short of it. I read every first lady biography in my elementary school library. The interest sparked at a very young age and I have chased it ever since. Now I have some favorites. Mainly Jacqueline Kennedy. I pursue interest in her. The strongest of all the first ladies. But I love them all. I think it they’re endlessly, endlessly fascinating. What sparked your initial interest?

Diana Carlin [00:03:34] Interestingly, it was a shelf of books of women’s biographies in my elementary school library. And there were several societies. So it’s the same [crosstalk].

Sarah [00:03:44] Look at that. I read all the female biographies. I didn’t just read the first ladies. I read every single female biography in my elementary school library.

Diana Carlin [00:03:50] I did the same thing.

Sarah [00:03:51] Oh my gosh, that’s so fun!

Diana Carlin [00:03:53] And Abigail Adams has always fascinated me. And then when I started teaching a course at the University of Kansas-- can I say that to somebody in Kentucky?

Sarah [00:04:04] Yes.

Diana Carlin [00:04:06] I included a section on first ladies because they were really our first women politicians and people don’t realize how political they were. So that really got me into the first ladies in a big way.

Sarah [00:04:20] Well, and we’re still learning. I feel like there’s been so much that has come out about Lady Bird Johnson. I had no idea. I had some stereotypes and some judgments about Lady Bird that I have had to let go of. She was doing a lot more than I thought she was.

Diana Carlin [00:04:35] Well, actually many of us knew all of that. In fact, I’d written a book chapter. You’re probably talking about the new book about her.

Sarah [00:04:42] Yeah, and how involved she was.

Diana Carlin [00:04:44] Well, except I had all of that in my book chapter 15 years ago. But once again, you have to dig for it. And that was one where I was working on a book chapter for a book on first ladies and their rhetoric. And I dug through a lot of files. And I have one of my co-authors on the book, on the new book that I just came out with, Nancy Keegan Smith, knew Lady Bird personally. So she really helped direct me to a lot of what that book that you were referring to, which the name is escaping me.

Sarah [00:05:17] Well, and there was a podcast series too.

Diana Carlin [00:05:19] Hiding in plain sight.

Sarah [00:05:21] Yeah.

Diana Carlin [00:05:21] Yeah. All of those letters between the two of them and then of course her recordings.

Sarah [00:05:27] Her recordings. That’s I think what really got people’s attention.

Diana Carlin [00:05:30] Yeah. And I found the shorthand notes she took. And I read shorthand. When I wrote that chapter, there were her shorthand notes critiquing him. And then she literally must have been sitting there reading from her shorthand notes. Extremely powerful. And she was really the one who started moving the first lady into a really activist position.

Sarah [00:05:54] Well, that’s my question. It feels like there’s the most significant shifts in their roles as it’s happening, and then there’s the significant shifts in how we perceive them based on how some of this resurfaces. So how do you trace those two paths over the last 100 years?

Diana Carlin [00:06:15] Eleanor Roosevelt is just the one who reshaped. The problem was her successors, actually even Jacqueline Kennedy was not that activist.

Sarah [00:06:30] She was about arts.

Diana Carlin [00:06:30] Yes. What she did for the White House was incredible in the White House Historical Association. But she didn’t give speeches.

Sarah [00:06:39] No.

Diana Carlin [00:06:39] Lady Bird gave hundreds of them. In fact, she sent Lady Bird out to give her speeches when Lady Bird was second lady.

Sarah [00:06:46] Wow.

Diana Carlin [00:06:47] Lady Bird gave over 100 speeches in place of Jacqueline Kennedy because she didn’t like to give speeches. But Eleanor was speaking everywhere. Bess Truman did not give speeches or news conferences as Eleanor had. So Eleanor had the advantage that she was post-1920. There were many first ladies who were extremely difficult that they were doing it all behind the scenes. And Eleanor had the advantage, and actually Florence Harding started it because she was the first one to vote for her husband for president in 1920. And then he, of course, died early on in his term. But Florence was beginning to do some of the kinds of things that Eleanor did with the media. So Eleanor had the advantage of 12 years past 19th Amendment women were voting, women were becoming more active. Lou Henry Hoover paved the way for her. Lou Henry Hoover started giving radio speeches, using the media. Some of the other first ladies had started dipping their toes into news releases.

[00:07:55] And as I said, Florence used to have all of these events in the Rose Garden and invite all of the media. And she wouldn’t do direct questioning, but they would cover her events. So that whole relationship of coming out of the shadows really was beginning after the 19th Amendment was passed. So Eleanor made a huge leap. And then Bess Truman was very quiet, but she was one of his major advisors. And the new iteration of the Truman Library exhibit points that out. I think they show a lot more of what Bess is doing behind the scenes. And Mamie Eisenhower, she was used to being a general’s wife where you didn’t walk into your husband’s business. But also she was extremely busy with events every single day. And she did a lot, but it wasn’t highly visible. Jackie Kennedy, her style, her arts, what she did in the hostess role, I think really elevated the importance of that role.

Sarah [00:09:00] Well, and I just read the story of the Egyptian temple that she basically got the congressional money for and got it picked it out of the book, was going to put it in DC it ended up in the Met, but I had no idea that was how that ended up here.

Diana Carlin [00:09:13] Yeah, there were so many things. And then they brought the Mona Lisa here. And that was real cool. In fact, there’s an entire book about bringing the Mona Lisa here. So what she did for the arts, what she did to ensure the White House would be maintained. Because up until Harry Truman, they had to close the White House for five years. It was falling apart. Literally, it was shaking. They were afraid it was going to fall apart. They took it down to the walls. And Bess Truman made sure they did not tear those walls down. And then they preserved every piece of it that they could, restructured it based on all the architectural work. But up until Jackie Kennedy, they had to rely on Congress to keep the White House in shape. And they never appropriated enough money. Beginning with the Adams, who were the first to occupy it in 1800. They just didn’t do it. It was literally falling apart. And Jackie Kennedy created the White House Historical Association, which now it’s private money that does all the restorations, all the renovations even up to day.

Sarah [00:10:16] So smart.

Diana Carlin [00:10:18] And without her they would probably still be fighting Congress and who knows what shape it was.

Sarah [00:10:23] Well, and what a smart communication strategy. It sounds like they adapt as the different medias come along. And for her to do that White House tour on television to make the case for why we need this, I always thought was so smart.

Diana Carlin [00:10:36] It was brilliant. Yeah. And then in terms of the perception, let me go back to Lady Bird. So Lady Bird had her issue and it was the environment. And then she was out promoting Head Start and a lot of his other programs on education. She literally crisscrossed the country every year. She took reporters with her. She did a whistle stop tour. She was the first lady to have her own campaign. During 1964, the Civil Rights Act had just passed, and he was not popular in the South, and they were afraid he was going to lose the entire South. And he couldn’t go into the South safely. So Lady Bird put all these 200 and some reporters on a train, and all of these stops over a several day period and gave speeches and got incredible press for it. And that was really the first time that you’d had a first lady out campaigning on her own for her husband. And after that we just expect them now to be out there. And if they aren’t, it’s like where are they? Just like with Melania. Where’s Melania? Because she stepped back. She was in many ways more a Bess Truman, Mamie Eisenhower in the first term. She’s doing a little more this time, much more aggressive with some of the issues that relate to her, Be Best, which she hadn’t done as much with.

[00:11:57] But since then, we expect first ladies to have a cause, and they all have. And some have promoted it better than others, but they all have. So that’s kind of the reality. Then getting to your second part, perception, which I think is an extremely perceptive observation. How we tell the stories, whether we tell the stories, and we haven’t told the stories as fulsome a manner as we should, which is why all this stuff was going on with Lady Bird at the time. But unless you’ve lived through it like I did, I was in high school during Lady Bird’s era. And I knew Lady Bird was doing all of that because I was following the news. I was a high school debater and did extemporaneous speaking, and I was speaking on some of her initiatives. But it didn’t necessarily get followed through with biographies of her husband. These women are in the shadows of her husbands. And that’s been true of so many of them, especially the older ones. We didn’t have presidential libraries. They burned a lot of their papers and letters. And so digging through that history has been more difficult. And we were really amazed looking at Dr. Biden because she was extremely active. And when we were working on our book and working on that section, We were noticing that she got local news coverage, extensive local news coverage everywhere she was, but the national media wasn’t picking up on it.

Sarah [00:13:21] Wow.

Diana Carlin [00:13:22] So this becomes that perception that she’s not doing a whole lot or it’s just on a couple things because the media doesn’t still cover first ladies probably the way they should.

Sarah [00:13:34] What do you think as you did this comprehensive overlook, like what first ladies do you think are the most understood, whose impact is the most underestimated, or that history has sort of decided on a story? I always wonder about Edith Wilson. We’re all out here deciding she was basically president. Was that true? I don’t know. Like all of that

Diana Carlin [00:13:54] It is. And Rebecca Roberts has a biography that’s been out a couple of years, Untold Power of Edith. I mean, she was powerful from the very beginning. She was the one who decoded all of the messages in the war room during World War One. She was trusted. And she went to Paris with him to the peace talks. Nothing like that had ever been done before. So even before his stroke, when she was really gatekeeping, she was pretty powerful. I do think a lot of these women have just not been understood or they’ve been unheralded. And Abigail Adams, who is still one of my favorites, but Abigail didn’t do as much as first lady as she did before she was first lady.

Sarah [00:14:44] Like first founder. Like founder is where she is really shining.

Diana Carlin [00:14:48] Remember the ladies was in 1776. We weren’t even an official-- we didn’t have a presidency or anything yet. But Abigail kept records and that was the most important thing. They left hundreds of letters. Son John Quincy and his wife did the same. So the entire Adams family has a collection that is amazing; whereas, the Washingtons burned everything. Elizabeth Monroe burned everything. Edith Roosevelt, Teddy’s wife, got rid of a lot of things. So it’s been more difficult to piece that together and to really see how important those women were. And now we have digitization, and so we’ve been able to get some of these records out into the public in a way that no one could get to them before. So you’ll find some things online. So that’s been one of the difficult things. I think Eleanor Roosevelt definitely gets her due. Martha Washington for establishing Dolly Madison, people realize how important Dolly Madison was. She created the whole concept of bipartisanship, using the hostess role to create a political environment for bipartisan, which was brilliant. And then she mentored other first ladies who followed along, Julia Tyler, who was only first lady for less than a year, and then Sarah Polk. Sarah Polk was one of the most powerful first ladies we ever had. Nobody’s ever heard of her.

Sarah [00:16:13] Wow. Well, tell me more. My name’s Sarah. I’m primed to be as famous.

Diana Carlin [00:16:17] Sarah helped write his speeches. She was his major consultant on everything. She gatekeeped. I mean, she really was a gatekeeper. She’d get up and read newspapers and then summarize them for him in the morning. She decided where he was going. And they didn’t have the kind of staffs back then that we had.

Sarah [00:16:38] That’s what I was going to say. As part of this but they didn’t have this aggressive staff that had to be a big change once they got bigger staffs.

Diana Carlin [00:16:45] Right. And also the president’s office up until Theodore Roosevelt was in the family quarters. So what we now call the Lincoln bedroom, Lincoln didn’t sleep in that room. That was his office. And that was the room where all the presidents until Theodore Roosevelt held their meetings. And so it was much easier for these first ladies to have a lot of input because they were literally living and working on the same floor. That was a really important point. So I think Sarah Polk, very powerful. There is a new biography of her called Lady First, which I also highly recommend, and you get a very different view of her. I don’t think Lou Henry Hoover had gotten as much attention as she deserved. Like I said, she was the first one to go on the radio and give a public speech. One to give a major public speech. And once again, women just weren’t expected to be that political until after 1920. And then there was somebody who said they should be. So Lou Henry Hoover was doing a lot more than people realized, especially in shaping the role for women in the future. She was very active in the Girl Scout. She’d been the head of the Girl Scouts. And she changed the way they looked at what they were doing.

Sarah [00:18:06] Well that’s interesting because that makes me wonder, okay, so if 2019 comes along and that changes people’s perception of women and politics in this major way, and that in turn is working in Congress with our perceptions of the first lady and their roles, I would think in the ‘70s and particularly in the ‘90s when you have way more female politicians, how did that work on the role of the first lady?

Diana Carlin [00:18:31] Okay, well, like I said, Lady Bird really big difference. Pat Nixon, another one who is underappreciated. She is still the only first lady who gave a speech on her husband’s behalf to a foreign parliament. She did it in Africa. Up until Hillary Clinton, she was the most traveled first lady and went to like over 70 countries and many of them on her own. She was the one who delivered foreign aid in South America to Peru when they’d had this devastating earthquake. And she was the one who went down and did it. Our relations had been terrible. When she went to China, she was the one who we saw on the nightly news because they didn’t have cameras in his meetings. They were following Pat around. And we saw China first through Pat Nixon’s itinerary, which was extremely carefully planned. She was the one who completed Jackie Kennedy’s White House renovation. And did twice as much as Jackie had done because she did have more time? She opened the White House in ways that had never been opened before. Before the ADA, she put ramps in for wheelchairs. She brought in signers. She had special tours for visually impaired. Just all of these things that she did that were way ahead of their time. And she supported the ERA. She was pro-choice and made a public statement about that. The Republican platform, actually, back in the late 60s.

Sarah [00:20:09] Yeah. But paradoxically they have no power but more freedom. You know what I mean? In this like very weird way.

Diana Carlin [00:20:28] If you really look at the first ladies who’ve been successful and have gotten a lot done, it’s because they don’t get into hardcore politics. Still deal with issues--

Sarah [00:20:39] In what we call influencing.

Diana Carlin [00:20:40] Right. They influence and often they do it behind the scenes. So Lady Bird Johnson got all of this environmental work done because she didn’t go out herself and campaign for it, but she used her husband, she used his connection, she did it behind the scenes. Barbara Bush got a literacy act passed, not because she was going out giving speeches on it, but she was working with both sides of the aisle to get things done. Pat Nixon worked with both sides of the aisle to get some things done. So these women were doing a lot of it behind the scenes and they were taking on issues that have a societal impact, but weren’t necessarily hot button topics until Hillary. And then it became health care because it was legislation. So she got into actually writing legislation and other first ladies hadn’t done that. Rosalind Carter went to the Hill and testified on mental health. They would not allow her because of nepotism laws to chair National Task Force on Mental Health. So she became the honorary chair, but she basically did everything that a chair would do and she testified. Eleanor Roosevelt had been the first to testify before Congress. So in kind of in between. But they were not writing the legislation themselves. And that was where Hillary probably went a bridge too far in terms of her participation and that looked too much like policy making actually.

Sarah [00:22:10] But how do you predict that to continue to change? Do you think that we’re just having more and more tolerance for more political first ladies? I mean, Melania is not particularly political, but I think definitely towards the end people saw Dr. Biden as very political. So I wonder where do you see that going? Do you think there’ll be like a correction in the first lady or first gentleman, as the case may be? We’ll kind of dial it back or do you think we’re on a one way street here?

Diana Carlin [00:22:36] We have never been on a one way street since Martha. This is the beauty of the role. Every single woman who has had that position has defined it in her own way. And how she’s defined it has been affected by the times. So those early first ladies, they couldn’t go out and give speeches and talk to the media and do some of the things that they’re doing now. But also presidents are doing things that they weren’t doing back then in terms of instances also. For instance, the State of the Union was not delivered. It was just a speech. And now this is a big major event. The changes, if you look, it’s been an ebb and flow of how visible they are, of how active they are, of how political they are, of what we know about them, how much the media covers them, what they choose to do, what they don’t do. So their marital relationship has a huge piece they’re able to do.

Sarah [00:23:36] Which makes sense.

Diana Carlin [00:23:37] Lyndon Johnson gave Lady Bird free reign. Hillary had a lot of free reign. Pat Nixon had a lot of support. Betty Ford, you stop and think about Betty Ford and what she did in a very short period of time. Not only did she challenge that she didn’t have the right to speak out on the ERA and women’s issues, she had a very famous line in a speech in 1975, International Year of the Woman, that her husband’s job should have no influence on what she as an independent person could say.

Sarah [00:24:09] Still a citizen.

Diana Carlin [00:24:11] Exactly. And that’s what she said. And she has an opinion. And what she did for health, she went public with her breast cancer at a time when you could not say the words breast or cancer in the media. And she changed it. We had a 40th anniversary almost two years ago now in Grand Rapids of her calling the first ever conference on first ladies with Rosalind Carter. We had a doctor who talked about what she did with breast cancer and said they really look at this as before Betty Ford and after Betty Ford in terms of education, knowledge, women becoming proactive in their health care. So huge impact.

Sarah [00:24:55] Well, to the marital relationship of it all, this is one of my favorite things to think about with first ladies and presidents. What do you think is the greatest love story that’s taken place between a first lady and a president?

Diana Carlin [00:25:05] Gosh, that’s an interesting one. We’ve never had that question. The Adams had an incredible love story and it’s all out there for everybody to read. You can look at the bantering between the two of them, the names they had. It was a wonderful love story. In modern times, the Kennedy love story was an interesting one to follow. Even if you look at all of the other pieces of it with the infidelity, there was still a connection there.

Sarah [00:25:35] I always say the Reagans. Look, he’s not my favorite president and she’s not my favorite first lady. But those two were obsessed with each other.

Diana Carlin [00:25:41] I was going to get to Nancy and their love letters published between the two of them. He was her life. [Inaudible] it was the same thing. He was her life. They had no children. But the Reagans certainly were a wonderful love story. The Grants, oh my gosh, if you read his letters, there’s a book of his letters, and you read her memoir, that was an amazing love story.

Sarah [00:26:09] Interesting. And the ones that are complicated are just as interesting. Like both sets of Roosevelt’s. That’s some real complicated love stories, man. I think that those are almost as interesting as the ones that are just like simple and beautiful.

Diana Carlin [00:26:24] And I do think the Bidens. And they were very open. He had that line about she takes his breath away. And after all those years of marriage, he was still saying that about her. And so that’s one that I think you just can’t discount in terms of the marital situation being [crosstalk].

Sarah [00:26:43] Well, and that’s what I always say about the Clintons. I love that line in her book where she says, “All I can tell you is we started a conversation decades ago and we’re still talking.” Like those two I think they’re just so rightfully impressed with each other’s intellects, and passion and interest. It’s always so interesting to me. Okay, well, I have an even harder question for you. And I do apologize because I’m in fact terrible at answering this type of question, but I have to do it. If you could have a conversation with one first lady from history, who would it be and what would you ask her?

Diana Carlin [00:27:12] Okay, that is a tough one.

Sarah [00:27:14] It’s a tough one. I know it’s mean. It’s really mean for somebody who writes a book like that. But I have to do it. When you write the complete book of first ladies, come on.

Diana Carlin [00:27:23] It’s a difficult one. I think I still would go back to Abigail. She’s feisty. She was saying things that no other woman was thinking about saying. Remember the first ladies that were going to form revolution. Just having read so many of her letters and biographies, I still think she would be a fascinating one because some of the more recent ones, and I’ve met several, we know too much about them. Right. And even with Abigail’s letters, that’s still a one sided view-- two sided. But I think because we didn’t have her being covered, and to find out a lot more about what she was doing behind the scenes and her real opinions of people, because that was such a crucial time in the country’s history. And I found her fascinating since I was in the sixth grade like you.

Sarah [00:28:21] Yeah, it very much reminds me when you go back and you read like Mary Wollstonecraft or Mary Shelley and these women especially Wollstonecraft just saw a future that no one could-- like just was pulling it from the thin air according to how women were treated at the time. It’s so impressive. Mine would definitely still be Jackie, just because I think there’s such a contrast between being such a famous first lady. We have 1,000 images of her, and no one really-- she was so private. She just at the end of the day was very, very private. I would give anything to have been a part of the conversation where Hillary went to her and asked her advice. What I wouldn’t give to know what she told her. I just think that she was such a private first lady, but clearly a very powerful intellect and had her own priorities. And I think she would just be so interesting to talk to.

Diana Carlin [00:29:14] There’s an incredible letter that we talk about in our book. After Kennedy’s assassination, she wrote a letter to Kristoff.

Sarah [00:29:23] Wow.

Diana Carlin [00:29:25] And she did not go through formal diplomatic means.

Sarah [00:29:29] That’s one of my favorites; was she didn’t care. She was like, I’m done. Listen, I’m done with all you people. I never liked you and I’m definitely done now.

Diana Carlin [00:29:40] And she found a way to get that to him. And she basically said, “My husband wanted peace. I’m sure you want that for your people too. And I hope that you will continue to find ways that we can work together.” So she writes this letter. And when it finally came to light was after the fall of the Soviet Union. Wow. The Russian archives disclosed this during the Clinton peace talk.

Sarah [00:30:13] She’s a big letter writer. She’s written a lot of letters in her life.

Diana Carlin [00:30:16] Yeah. And there are great letters between her and LBJ. They were very close. She wrote to him once about a chandelier she wanted that belonged in the White House and was over in Congress and would he get it for her. And there are some recordings between the two of them. That kind of soft power hidden, she definitely had a lot of that. As you said, I think one of the exciting things about being in this field is that I’ve been at this for about 30 years. There’s new stuff all the time.

Sarah [00:30:53] Well, the Doris Kearns Goodwin book about her and her husband, I didn’t realize how close her husband was with Jackie. And so hearing all those stories was so fascinating and like just I love it so much. Every time you get like a new glimpse of the person that sort of upset some of your own assumptions, I just think it’s the best.

Diana Carlin [00:31:11] Or somebody who is finally speaking out. There’s a new book on Pat Nixon that Heath Hardage Lee wrote called The Mysterious Mrs. Nixon. And she interviewed I think almost every living person from the Nixon administration, had access to letters between Pat and her best friends. And she reveals a Pat Nixon that no one knew. And none of this had been out there available. As we begin unearthing more information, people do their oral histories, they process things in libraries. First ladies’ papers don’t get processed nearly as quickly as the president’s, and they still have shelves and shelves and shelves of presidential papers that haven’t been processed.

Sarah [00:31:58] We’re going to keep changing our minds about so many of these women, as we do with the presidents.

Diana Carlin [00:32:05] Not really revisionist history in my mind, it’s revealed history. Where you are finally revealing some things that had been hidden. The more we put the puzzle pieces together, the more complete picture we get of them.

Sarah [00:32:21] I love that. It’s a perfect place to end and thank you for being a part of that process so much.

Diana Carlin [00:32:26] You’re welcome. It’s my passion and it’s what I do for fun.

Sarah [00:32:29] I love it. Thank you for coming on Pantsuit Politics.

Diana Carlin [00:32:32] Thank you very much. Enjoyed it.

Beth [00:32:44] Okay, Sarah, Outside of Politics, what is the can’t miss Thanksgiving side for you?

Sarah [00:32:51] Stuffing.

Beth [00:32:51] Okay, but stuffing sounds like an answer when there’s a whole universe of stuffing. So I need some particulars for what matters to you about stuffing.

Sarah [00:32:59] Stuffing is stovetop stuffing that my husband has like fancied up. My husband is a food snob, so he’s not doing this with inferior product. There’s just a certain point where some processed foods are as good as you could make homemade. I do a lot of cake mix doctors because the basic ingredients, I don’t need to gather all the-- like my flour is not better than the flour in the cake mix. Do you see what I’m saying? So he does the stovetop, he juices it up. I think he adds fresh cream, dried cranberries and walnuts. And I think he maybe adds some additional seasoning, but just like that’s when I really want stuffing. And it’s the smell too. It’s like all the thyme and rosemary with the turkey and the gravy. I just think like it’s not Thanksgiving without it.

Beth [00:33:54] Does he cook it in the turkey or just on the stovetop.

Sarah [00:33:57] No, on the stove.

Beth [00:34:01] Like you serve it in like a bowl so it’s not like baked in like

Sarah [00:34:04] Yeah, I don’t like the baked ones, the casserole stuffing. I think it’s too dry.

Beth [00:34:08] Okay.

Sarah [00:34:08] I don’t like cornbread stuffing. I don’t like oyster stuffing. I could just let’s-- it’s a regional thing, probably more than anything, if we’re being honest.

[00:34:16] I love cornbread stuffing. And I love a baked stuffing as long as it’s not too dry. You do have to be really careful about it. I don’t want it cooked in the turkey. I just never feel good about that.

Sarah [00:34:25] I like it on the stovetop because it’s like fluffy.

Beth [00:34:28] Okay. So stuffing for you. So my favorite is just mashed potatoes.

Sarah [00:34:33] I mean that’s a close second.

Beth [00:34:35] I just feel like Thanksgiving is the moment when you can really do it right with your mashed potatoes. And they make me very, very happy. And I think that they are really good with turkey.

Sarah [00:34:45] My love of mashed potatoes they don’t feel particularly seasonal to me. You know what I’m saying? I want them with fried chicken in the summer. I want them at the Christmas table. I want them at the Easter table. But I don’t really want to eat stuffing all year long. But we eat mashed potatoes with dinner on a just a Tuesday. You know what I’m saying? Because he makes them an Instant pot. You can make them so good so quickly. So I love them. I don’t know if they’re my favorite Thanksgiving side. If you were to ask me my favorite vegetable side, absolutely mashed potatoes.

Beth [00:35:19] I just don’t want to sit down at a Thanksgiving table without mashed potatoes. So that’s why they come to mind for me as like the quintessential side. I just think they taste good with everything, no matter what else is on the table. The mashed potato is what brings it all together for me.

Sarah [00:35:32] I love a mashed potato so much. I don’t like soft food, but I like mashed potatoes. But it would still be Thanksgiving to me if you just had turkey, stuffing, green beans, a roll, cranberry sauce, and let’s say I love a cream spinach, a corn, like a carrot, roasted carrot. Like that would still feel Thanksgiving to me. Like it would not be Thanksgiving if there was no mashed potatoes. Let me put it that way. Because that mashed potatoes and stuffing are adjacent. I think we can all agree.

Beth [00:36:01] I want them both or it’s not Thanksgiving to me.

Sarah [00:36:03] Okay.

Beth [00:36:04] And I like the mashed potatoes like really creamy. I like a lot of garlic in my mashed potatoes. I like them to have a nice strong flavor. I like a lot of butter involved. And on Thanksgiving, I just feel like it’s the time to really go all out with your mashed potatoes. Okay. What about dessert? What is your favorite Thanksgiving dessert?

Sarah [00:36:21] By a hair’s breadth, it’s pecan pie over pumpkin pie. It’s not a blowout, but aforementioned soft food version. I just like a pecan pie better.

Beth [00:36:36] I like pumpkin brownies on Thanksgiving. They are one of the most labor intensive aspects for me when I host Thanksgiving because I start with a pumpkin instead of canned pumpkins.

Sarah [00:36:49] Lord. Why, Beth?

Beth [00:36:50] Because they’re special. You know what I mean? The Thanksgiving table is supposed to be special. And so I really like to take the time to like roast the pumpkin and scoop it out and mash it up and then make it with brownies. And they’re so delicious. My sister really loves them. It’s really special to me that this is a thing that she remembers that I make and that she wants when she comes to my house. And it’s just my favorite.

Sarah [00:37:14] I need you to know that there has been an ongoing debate in my house where Griffin and Nicholas maintain that chocolate and pumpkin do not go together and they each make the other worse.

Beth [00:37:26] Okay, well I just strongly disagree with them and that’s fine. I don’t like pecan pie at all. I don’t want a piece of pecan pie ever for any reason, but it’s fine. If you were coming to my house and I knew that you love pecan pie, I would make you one and I would not feel the need to debate you about it.

Sarah [00:37:39] I don’t agree with them. I do like a pumpkin bar with the chocolate chip in it. I actually think chocolate and pumpkin go together well. Kimberley, text your sister and tell her she can just open a can of pumpkin, man. She also went on and on about the bar. She told me about them. She told me how much they mean to her. But catch a break. Open a can of pumpkin. I love to just wring every last bit out of a can of pumpkin puree. I opened a can and we made-- what did we make? I don’t remember. Maybe we made the pumpkin bars, but then there was some left. I know what it was. Okay, I made pumpkin muffins. And I used like half the can. And then I was like we have some left. We got to use it. So then we made the pumpkin bars. And then there was like a third of a cup left. And I was like I want to use the very last bit of this. I love a pumpkin puree so much. I was like this is gold. And so I made my own homemade pumpkin spice latte with actual pumpkin because it’s just like a tablespoon at a time if you’ve got a little bit of that pumpkin left. And I have the Instant pot milk frother, which is fantastic. Hot chocolate, your own lattes. It’s amazing. And so I put the pumpkin, it was like pumpkin vanilla, pumpkin spice, and milk and maple syrup. And I made my own pumpkin spice latte. It was so good. I was scraping the can. I just got every last bit of it out. It felt so good.

Beth [00:39:12] Let me say a few things to make myself perfectly clear here. I have no disrespect for pumpkin puree in a can whatsoever. No problem with it at all.

Sarah [00:39:19] It’s not actually pumpkin though, right? Isn’t it like sweet potato or some shit?

Beth [00:39:22] I don’t know. And it doesn’t really matter to me because I think it’s delicious and it works everywhere that you’re asking for pumpkin. And Kimberly does not require me to start with an actual pumpkin. She probably wouldn’t even notice if I used pumpkin puree, it’s fine. It is for me the enjoyment of Thanksgiving being different, that I take the time, no shortcuts. When I make my stuffing, I like to bake the bread and dry it out on the counter for a couple of days. I like the fact that this is a tactile, hands-on, my kitchen smells good. I have a few days of listening to music and chopping and prepping and organizing. Like it is the experience of look at that pumpkin I started with and what I made from it now. It’s less about the eating of it and more about the doing of it that makes me not want to take any shortcuts around Thanksgiving.

Sarah [00:40:12] I’ve just watched Nicholas do like a whole meal.

Beth [00:40:15] It’s a lot.

Sarah [00:40:16] It’s a lot. I mean, the organization is the specialness. It’s not a lot that we do because I live with Nicholas, but it’s not often that people get a roast first of all. A roasted turkey period. It’s not like a thing people do a lot of. And four to five sides and the bread. I mean, man, it’s like baked in. You don’t have to go all the way through every ingredients. I don’t believe for a hot second you’re not exhausted at the end of all this.

Beth [00:40:45] Well, I spread it out. Like when I’m hosting Thanksgiving, it is like a week-long process. You’re branding the turkey way ahead of time. And I spend some time with that organization, just sitting down. Okay, what can I do four days out? What can I do three days out? When can I make the cranberry sauce? I usually do that on the first day. So I am not cruising in miserable because I plan it really well, but I enjoy all of that. To me that is part of what makes it so fun to host. I’m not hosting this year. I’m kind of sad about it. We’re going to do Thanksgiving with Chad’s mom and then drive to my parents and do it with them. I’m excited to see everybody, but I do really love to cook this meal and just suspend time and all my other responsibilities because I have this meal to think about.

Sarah [00:41:29] Yeah, Nicholas does too. He’s going to make a Thanksgiving meal for my family before we go to Atlanta for Thanksgiving with his family. So I know he loves it and I do too. I do too. I would say a close second to the stuffing is a cream spinach. He makes the best cream spinach on Thanksgiving. There’s just so many good-- I just love it all together. It’s just so good. It’s so delightful. I love Thanksgiving so much.

Beth [00:41:57] Now, here’s what I think we should crowdsource because Thanksgiving will probably be over by the time we read a lot of the responses of this episode. But I think we should talk about the best uses for a little bit of pumpkin puree that’s left. I think it’s really delicious in a bowl of oatmeal. I think it’s nice with yogurt. If you just have a couple tablespoons left, what is your most creative deployment of the couple tablespoons that are left?

Sarah [00:42:18] Or just leftovers generally. Nicholas has done so many fun things with leftover stuffing. He made like stuffing like matzo ball soup. Like he used the stuffing to make like the dumplings or something in a soup. Like he’s done all kinds of fun stuff with the-- I love it when he knows that’s like my love language when he takes like a leftover and transforms it into-- because he doesn’t like leftovers because aforementioned food snobbery. And so when he transforms the leftovers into something new and special, way right to my heart.

Beth [00:42:51] Well, I’m excited to hear everybody’s uses for their leftovers and specifically for the pumpkin puree. And we hope that you have the best Thanksgiving available to you. We are very grateful for all of you. We will have another episode for you on Friday this week. But enjoy your week and enjoy being with your people and enjoy all those analog experiences that await you.

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Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

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