ICE Raids in LA and Trump v. Musk

It all comes back to power.

Sarah and Beth are together to discuss the immigration raids in Los Angeles, the subsequent protests, and the decision by the Trump administration to send in the military. Plus, the bromance between Elon and Donald has come to an end - why?

Topics Discussed

• ICE Raids and Protests in Los Angeles

• The Feud Between Elon Musk and Donald Trump

• Outside of Politics: Sarah’s Trip to Italy

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Episode Resources

Pantsuit Politics Resources

• Reimagining Citizenship Series

ICE Raids and Protests in California

• Donald Trump post on Truth Social about LA protests

• Department of Defense Security for the Protection of Department of Homeland Security Functions (The White House)

• Gavin Newsom letter to Pete Hegseth (X)

• Gavin Newsom about Tom Homan (X)

• Trump deploys California National Guard to LA to quell protests despite the governor’s objections (AP News)

More Immigration Stories

• Kilmar Abrego Garcia brought back to US, appears in court on charges of smuggling migrants (ABC News)

• Trump Targets Workplaces as Immigration Crackdown Widens (The New York Times)

• 'Crazy': How Florida's largest ICE raid unfolded at a Tallahassee construction site (Tallahassee Democrat)

• ICE raid at New Orleans construction site raises questions on key city flooding project (NOLA.com)

• Islanders push back on ICE detentions (The Martha's Vineyard Times)

• Business owners confront ICE agents during arrest at Great Barrington job site | South Berkshires (Berkshire Eagle)

Outside of Politics

• Laura Ramoso Reel about renting cars in Italy (Instagram)

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:08] This is Beth Silvers. You're listening to Pantsuit Politics. Today we are discussing the Trump administration's immigration enforcement actions and decision to deploy National Guard troops in California over its governor's objection. We'll also talk about the falling out between the president and Elon Musk and what the ramifications of that falling out might be. And then Outside of Politics, we'll catch up on Sarah's trip to Italy. Welcome back, Sarah.

Sarah [00:00:31] Thank you. It's nice to be back. Before we get started, our 30 days of Re-imagining Citizenship has begun and not a moment too soon to help us take a breath and keep our feet on the ground. If you're a notorious procrastinator, fear not. We're still in the first week and you are welcome to subscribe and join us in reflecting on our roles as citizens. You really don't want to miss it though. This weekend we shared our first guest meditation from our beloved listener, Sergio, about how citizenship is belonging and it really, really meets the moment. So you're going to want to check that out.

Beth [00:01:06] Up next, let's talk about what the administration is doing in California. The first bit of context that felt helpful to me in learning about these protests in California and the deployment of the National Guard was to recognize it as sitting alongside a decision by the Trump administration to focus on raiding workplaces. That this is what Tom Homan, the borders czar, has said is the next phase of the Trump Administration's operation. And they're doing this all over the United States. There was a raid in Tampa, other cities around the country are seeing ICE agents come into and around workplaces to start detaining people.

Sarah [00:02:00] Or they're showing up when either asylum seekers or people under certain visas are showing up for immigration check-ins. Like they're following the rules and then they're getting detained with little to no due process, separated from their families. I read reporting about one man getting arrested in front of his eight-year-old child. I have so many thoughts swimming in my head, but I always think it's so important when we talk about immigration to remember that this is a policy failure of epic proportions from both sides that is manifesting here in violent and terrible ways. I was thinking about this morning and I thought we live inside the immigration context of our own country. It's helpful so often to check in and be like, well, what's the percentage of people present in a country illegally in other nations? It's about half ours. Ours is about 3%. Germany sits at about 1.5. France, similar numbers. Our process is so different from other countries. It takes infinitely longer to legally immigrate to the United States than it does in other nations.

[00:03:19] We prioritize family reunification a lot stronger than other nations, but we don't have any sort of point system so that we can accelerate the process for people who really want to be here. I'm saying all that to say, everything we're going to talk about today is a mess of our own making. It is a problem we all have recognized for decades and ignored and not improved, and then sat around cursing the rain we knew was coming. And it's so frustrating that we are now in this terrible position where people's lives are being torn apart, where we have violence on the streets and this escalation when this is not a surprise emergency, this is a natural disaster that came out of nowhere. This is something that we know is broken. It has been broken for our entire lives. It's broken. It's a broken process that millions and millions of people get swept up in. And it's just so frustrating. It's so frustrating to be here with this situation knowing that this was, to a certain extent, inevitable.

Beth [00:04:43] In addition to how broken that process has been for decades, we are making it more confusing and more broken right now. I think people reasonably have questions about what their status is. People showing up to those appointments may not have heard that their temporary protective status has been revoked, for example. And so doing the right thing, just following the rules, the kind of language that we always use around immigration has always been off. It doesn't really meet the reality of how complex these laws are, but especially right now.

Sarah [00:05:19] Well, and so when you're talking about enforcement coming from the Trump administration, it's a classic, right? He always gets the right problem with the wrong solution. The immigration system is broken, but this type of enforcement will not fix it. It's just a fight he wants to have. It's a goal he set for himself to deport a million people, mainly telling people that it was going to be criminals. Lying to their faces. You're even getting pushback from some Republicans, particularly Latino Republicans in Florida saying, well, I didn't think you meant you were going to go to workplaces and deport beloved members of our community who are working hard and trying to make their way. Well, how did you think he was going to get to a million? How did you thing he was going to get to a million? That's a lot of people, even in a broken immigration system like ours. If a million people were present in the United States with criminal goals and purposes, what do you think it would feel like? I don't think it'd feel like cities, including Los Angeles, experiencing historically low murder rates personally. What did people think was going to happen? This was a made up goal that he's going to stick to. Stephen Miller is going to keep going for this, is going to keep pursuing this million deportation goal. Before we got to cities like Los Angeles and workplaces like this, you were already experiencing people getting swept in that were here illegally, people that were getting deported in horrific ways, getting a lot of media attention. This has just been simmering for so long.

Beth [00:07:07] What is the goal is a great question. They could take the win at the southern border. Border crossings are way down. That's a complex mix of factors always, but they could take that win. And they deserve some credit for it. I don't like the methodology, but they set out to say we're going to bring some order to a chaotic situation and those crossings are down now. That doesn't seem to be what it's about. I also question the workplace raids when I look at the entire agenda. If we're going to make things here in America again, we have these tariffs because we're going to re-industrialize. We want factories filled with workers making things. We're not going to have them if working at a factory means that ICE agents show up at random, often not looking like officials of the United States, masked, aggressive, pulling people out. How does this advance any ball? That's my question. What ball is advanced by this course of action? We haven't even gotten to the National Guard yet. Just the policy of doing these raids in this manner, I don't understand who that's for.

Sarah [00:08:18] Well, and they have control of Congress. Seemingly, they understand that the process itself is broken, or maybe they don't. Maybe they just think there wasn't enough enforcement and that our process is perfect. That's not what he articulated during the election. The articulation during the election was this bipartisan immigration reform bill is a problem because this is my best election issue, not we think the process is good. Clearly that's not what Republicans in Congress think. That's why they agreed to a bipartisan immigration reform bill. So I have to believe that maybe the Trump administration doesn't believe that either. They clearly think we also emphasize family relationships too much. They want to end birthright citizenship. But is that all you have for this broken process? If we're just mean enough, that will fix these broken processes? But also that's it, right? They don't have policies. They have vibes. Like I'm going to fix Ukraine and Russia with energy. I'm going to stop the war in Gaza with bravado. There's never any policy. It's just meanness and "strength".

Beth [00:09:44] So that takes us to the strength side or their definition of strength. There were some protests in California, in Paramount, in the garment district. What broke my heart reading about all this this morning was learning that some of those protests had been conducted so peacefully that the police department commended people on how they were out exercising their first amendment rights.

Sarah [00:10:07] And not just any police department, the LAPD.

Beth [00:10:12] Yes, that's why it broke my heart so much because you think about the history of this city and the history of this police department and the history of racially charged protests in this space and all the learning that's represented when the police department puts out a statement saying, good job, everybody. This is how you exercise those rights. For then the administration to decide to come in in such an aggressive way by deploying the National Guard breaks my heart. I want to acknowledge there's always someone who's behaving in an ugly way in situations like this, but California had said we've got it. Our police department has this under control. We can locally manage what's happening here. And administration officials, people across the administration start talking about it in apocalyptic terms. Stephen Miller says this is a fight for civilization. Trump says the lawlessness and disorder is going to stop immediately.

[00:11:16] And he signs this incredibly broad memo to Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense saying, I want you to send in at least, not up to, at least 2,000 National Guard personnel for at least, not up, 60 days. And by the way, you can send anybody in the regular armed forces out if you think that's necessary. And Pete Hegseth shows up on Twitter saying, "I've got active duty Marines standing by at Camp Pendleton ready to go. They're on high alert." I know this is unsurprising given the way Trump behaved about protests during his first term and given the ways he mythologizes the military. We've got this parade coming up this weekend in honor of his birthday where we're going to demonstrate our military might in the streets of Washington, D.C. So I know it's unsurprisingly. It was still just shocking to read this memo to me and see how broad it is and what they appear to contemplate, which is that any protest of ICE's work amounts to rebellion against the United States government and will be treated that way.

Sarah [00:12:29] There's so many layers of this. I want to go back to what you said about contained. This is the LAPD, this Los Angeles, they have a long history of uncontained protest and riots. It's not as if they are naive or have no expertise in this area. And the workplace raids, I think, were an inevitable accelerant. I also can't quite get to the bottom of the size of the ICE presence as it rolled out across this Home Depot in Paramount because there weren't protests already. One assemblyman in particular saw all these trucks, this fence going up and were like what the heck is this? It was an occupation. There is an invasion happening, but it is not from illegal immigrants entering the United States; it is from a party who has crowed about state’s rights for my entire adult life being completely comfortable with occupying an American city against their will. That's the occupation happening. That's what's happening in Los Angeles with this administration. They know that this illegal immigration, what they would probably call a mandate, is what got them elected. And I don't think it's just cynical posturing. I think Stephen Miller, and I can say this without getting suspended because I work for myself, is a heinous, racist, true believer to his core about America, what it should look like and who should be included and who shouldn't be excluded. And he has an enormous amount of power inside this administration, particularly when it comes to immigration.

[00:14:35] To the protest side, I think you're right. I don't think we can talk about this in simple terms of one side or the other. I was reading Isaac Saul in the tangle and I thought it was so smart the way he put it. He said, "I've been to a lot of protests as a reporter and what you see a lot of the time is young men on both sides and what can only be described as a civilized cock fight." The protesters push as far as they can, then the national guards or law enforcement push back as hard as they can and then are laughing and calm, seemingly not threatened moments later, and in the videos you see this dance they're doing. And I don't think burning cars, shutting down highways, and I'm going to be honest with it about this, waving other countries flags in front of those burning cars is helpful. It is also accelerating the situation. It's inflammatory. And it is an expression of not sincere concern. It is an impression of perhaps frustration in lived experiences I don't understand. But also, again, based on the shared demographic of everyone who seems present in this picture, a lot of young men expressing control over their situation, their own narrative. I'm sure there's a fair amount of group dynamics going on in this situation. And that should be called out and shut down. The problem is LA was doing that. California was doing it. They were shutting it down. They were saying no assemblies 4 p.m in Paramount. They were like, you're done, get out, go home.

[00:16:16] And so for then the Trump administration to come in and to thank the National Guard for stabilizing the situation before they'd even gotten there tells you everything you need to know. This was about a fight they wanted. This is just a fight they want to distract from things they don't want you to pay attention to, to keep pushing on this thing they think is a winning issue, which personally I think they're going to inevitably overplay their hand on immigration, which has for a long time been a winning issue for them, and even law and order. What law and order you got there and now it looks like a war zone in certain pockets of the city. It's not like Los Angeles has fallen. People don't have any clue how big Los Angeles is. But that issue aside, because it's so predictable and completely frustrating all at the same time.

Beth [00:17:08] I think if they always bet on the average person's distaste for protest, because protest is uncomfortable. That's the point of it. And people don't like things that are uncomfortable in their cities. And when those protests move beyond expressing a view in an organized way to elements of lawlessness, people hate that. And I think that they bet on sending these folks in would accelerate the elements of this protest that had that ember. There was some heat there, and they could throw some gas on it and here we are. And then people will see those images on TV and the president's approval will go way up because people will hear finally someone is going to do something about this because they think that everyone has stored in their memories moments of protest that they thought got out of control. And I just think that's the gamble they're making. And I don't know if they'll be right or not. How much people will care that Governor Newsom is saying, "No, thank you. We had this, you're making it worse." It's tough in the stories today. You see some local officials in Los Angeles saying, "On Saturday I would have said, no we don't need help. Today that might be different." It is getting worse just as they intended.

Sarah [00:18:30] I always think about Monica Lewinsky and Linda Tripp when someone's like aren't you glad she recorded it? And she's like yeah, but it's like I'm standing on the street, she pushed a piano out the window and ran down the stairs and pulled me out from under the piano. She pushed the piano, you know? They made it worse. And so the responsibility is on the federal government for this accelerated situation. And I think about a lot the reporting, as he is now back, around Kilmar Abrego Garcia, that people didn't like it. They don't agree with the administration's tactics. After they got educated on what was actually happening, people who don't pay attention generally agree with it until they get more information and they're like, whoa, this isn't what I wanted. I don't know how far this can go. It feels very bleak to me. I was very concerned by David Frum's piece in the Atlantic that said this is a test run for the midterms when they can say, well, we stoked this violence but now it's out of control. So we have to step in and not let you have an election. I'm concerned about that. I am concerned that this administration still playing the we're just cleaning it up card. I don't know how long that's going to last with the American people. How many communities have to have beloved members detained by unmarked, masked federal agents before people go, "This is not what we voted for." I don't know how responsive the Trump administration would be were we to get to a point where your average American who doesn't pay a lot of attention says, this is not what I voted for.

Beth [00:20:31] And it has to be that I don't think there is a solution to this other than a political solution. I don't think the court system gets involved here. There is news as we are sitting down to record about California's intention to go to court and ask a court to step in. And it is just very, very hard for me to imagine, especially the Supreme Court, putting any guardrails around the president's authority in this particular posture. And I understand that hesitation because we are getting to core balance of power issues. The National Guard is a complicated institution because it does typically answer to governors, but also answers to the president. And usually we have officials who can manage that balance of authority. I thought one of the most interesting parts of Governor Newsom's letter to Pete Hegseth saying, don't do this, said, and by the way, we need these National Guard troops for other things. You're tying up resources. What if there's another wildfire on the scale of what LA dealt with very recently and you've got National Guard members at 2,000 for up to 60 days dealing with this? That's bananas. But that's bananas in a way that relies on executives operating in their normal core scope of power using that power reasonably. And I don't know that our court system has a way to deal with an executive using that core power unreasonably.

Sarah [00:22:03] When they talk about saving civilization or preventing 2020, what are you trying to save? Your disdain for this area of the country is so manifestly apparent. Who are you fighting for? You don't care about California. That's what's so heartbreaking about this. I'm not even sure you care about red states sometimes. These resources aren't only needed in California, they're about to be needed in Florida where you've gutted FEMA and hurricane season's about to start. What are we fighting for? What are we fighting for except for you and your cronies to get richer and richer and richer? That's where I see the motivation. That's what I see the action, the processes or removal of processes. I got, and I know you did as well, mark this great email from the morning at the New York Times yesterday that he set all these outrageous goals for himself. I'm going to end the war in Gaza. I'm going to end the war in the Ukraine. It's going to be the best economy in the world. We're going to deport a million people. And we don't have the leverage we thought he did or he thought we did. We're not like that on the world stage. We weren't before he stepped foot in there and we certainly don't have it now. Make America Great Again. When's that going to start? Because I don't see it. I see him continuing to tear this country apart, which I do think is the one vibe-like issue that all Americans, no matter how informed, can see.

Beth [00:24:01] We've tried from Inauguration Day forward to not react the same way we reacted in the first administration. So as I'm taking all this in, I'm trying to think, okay, what would I have felt, done, and said in 2017? And how am I integrating the things that I've learned since then in assessing this situation? And so that's why I keep thinking about the big picture here. Make no mistake, I am horrified, I'm embarrassed, and I am sad about the way that we are treating people from other countries who try to have a better life here. I also acknowledge that we need order in that process and we need our laws to operate and that not everyone here is a good community member. There are lots of good community members. I think the majority, but not everybody. We have to deal with that reality too. So I feel all of that, but I'm trying to not lead with that in my analysis of the situation. I'm try to lead with an understanding of where are they going? What's the vision? I think I heard from people in my life, voters that they feel Trump has a vision and they feel like Democrats don't. Okay, so what's the mission and how is that vision being advanced? And if you put all these pieces together, the economic management, the immigration management, the obsession in institutions like Homeland Security and the FBI with internal threats, shifting all the agency resources to immigration and drug crimes here in the United States and away from external terrorist threats. And also just the internal obsession and polygraphing people to see if they ever said anything mean about a member of the administration. I just, in the big picture, don't see what that vision is that is a vision for the country versus a vision for the people in power, as you said, hoarding power and resources and feeling like everyone is saying thank you sufficiently about them doing that.

Sarah [00:26:04] Yeah, I just think the vision is Trump. That's the vision. What makes him richer? What makes them feel better? I haven't gotten a chance to watch it, but did you read about the documentary with the unprecedented access to him for a few days? It begins with talking about how Governor Wes Moore at the Marine football game was just praising him, "Really hope Maryland can get together with you, we want to work together." Just profuse in their praise. And everyone that surrounds him is just-- it's a court. Even people who don't like him, even people who disagree with him, everyone is just in a rush to bow down, which probably is what makes this moment with Elon Musk so interesting, surprising.

Beth [00:26:59] I want to say one more thing before we transition to the Elon Musk situation about that court, because I keep thinking about governors. What do you do here when we are stuck with Trump and JD Vance for four years? We are. If you're governor, how do you manage something like this? Now, I was watching Governor Newsom do his MSNBC interview where he was talking about Tom Homan, the borders czar, and saying:

Clip: Gov. Gavin Newsom [00:27:22] I've been here 10 years. The fear, the horror, the hell is this guy? Come after me, arrest me, let's just get it over with. Tough guy. I don't give a damn, but I care about my community. I care about this community. The hell are they doing? These guys need to grow up, they need to stop, and we need to push back. And I'm sorry to be so clear, but that kind of bloviating is exhausting. So Tom, arrest, me. Let's go.

Beth [00:27:51] I think Newsom has decided two people can play at this kind of posturing. And that's the path he's taking. But what do you do? What is Wes Moore to do? What is Gretchen Whitmer to do? She had that awful moment hiding her face in the White House. And I said at the time, look, you're a governor, it's your job to advocate for your state and we are stuck with this president and his vice president for four years. And this is clearly what is required to get the resources that you need in your state. Our governor does it all the time. President Trump was very easy to work with on this emergency declaration. We've gotten all the resources that we need from Washington and we're so thankful. That's how you have to manage it. That doesn't work very well in terms of mounting an effective opposition. I think it's strategic in that way. Who can emerge as a powerful counterbalance to Trump when a lot of people who have any kind of position of responsibility right now are required to suck up to some extent to just get basic services for the people they're responsible to?

Sarah [00:28:56] I would like to believe-- and I do feel this as a citizen of Kentucky, although I think that's a more difficult situation. But I would like to believe that as a governor there would be political power. And not just political power, but moral authority in saying I'm not going to bow down. We don't owe you anything. This is the United States of America. We are equal citizens under the law. Your power comes from the citizens of my state. The power comes from the people, not your bank account, not the loyalty of your court jesters, but from the people of this country who gave it to you. I don't feel like anyone is saying that. Do I think he'd hear it even if they did? I don't know. But there is a real disconnect. Even with the issue of immigration, which is must be why it's such a powerful issue for them because it is inherently intention with citizenship. It's paradoxically inherently linked and intentioned with. I think that's why, back to the beginning of this conversation, it has lingered as such a broken process for decades in this country. Because what is my selfish motivation as a citizen to lobby for immigration reform? And so that disconnect. And even though the issues of the corruption and the Crypto auction of the people's house, the completely transparent transactions of you pay me money and we'll give you government favors. I don't know if it's just disconnected enough from people's lived existence that they can't see how broken this is? I don't know how long it has to be him just making war for his own benefit before people see he's not actually building anything. He's not building anything and he's certainly not building anything for all of us.

Beth [00:32:10] I keep thinking about density. I wrote about this in our newsletter on Friday that we just have a density problem. There's too much mass squeezing into the volume of a day to even keep up with all of the things that they're doing that create that situation that you just described. And I think that that is the problem on the side of people giving voice to the fact that power comes from the people. They want a critical mass. They want enough people saying that and enough people on that message to effectively counter him. And I hope that's just a matter of time. I hope that we get an equal opposite reaction that is thoughtful and prepared. It gives me some measure of comfort to know that California officials knew this would happen at some point during this president's term. Maybe it came a little sooner than they thought, but they have gamed some scenarios out. They have a lawsuit presumably ready to go and hopefully some other actions as well.

[00:33:07] I think you are right that this is not unrelated to his feud with Elon Musk because so much of what the administration does is reactive because Trump is the goal, because Trump is the office. And so when you have a confluence of stories where the president is looking behind, you have courts checking the administration. You have those international efforts at diplomacy failing. You have some just bad stories out there, the cryptocurrency, the plane from Qatar, things that you just don't want people focused on. A sweeping action like deploying the National Guard to California is predictable. And I think this feud with Elon Musk is predictable. I think it is both a source of the president looking a little bit silly and an opportunity that the president sees to try to make himself look like the stronger person who has the upper hand. So we're going to talk about that next. I'm wondering, Sarah, where were you when you learned that the world's wealthiest man was taking to Twitter to say the pettiest, most pointed things possible about the president of the United States, who was mere weeks ago his late night brainstorming and Haagen-Dazs buddy.

Sarah [00:34:44] An important perspective to remember is that last year I was traveling across Japan during the post-debate assassination attempt, domino crisis that was the United States last summer. So this felt easy breezy in comparison. Elon's tweet about Trump being in the Epstein Files, I think is the first time I was like, okay. I don't know exactly where we were, somewhere in Southern Italy. Italy is also just a chaotic environment, so you're just swimming in a little bit of drama all the time when you're in Italy, so maybe that's why it didn't hit as hard. It's just so weird. It's like we've all been predicting this the whole time, but then they just kept trucking along and I thought, well, maybe we're wrong. Maybe they'll make it work, these two crazy kids. But then it just fell apart pretty quickly and pretty spectacularly in a way that I still found a little surprising.

Beth [00:35:51] I was listening to Jonathan Swan talk about this on The Daily this morning, and he said that whole scene in the White House where Trump is giving Elon the key and thanking him so much for his government service was just fake, that Elon was already big mad and things had gotten very cold between them by then over this NASA administrator that Elon wanted in, over provisions of the bill about electric vehicles, you could make a long list of reasons that Elon felt slighted. I just keep coming back to the fact that these two are so similar in living in bubbles where people don't tell them no, and where they do get what they want. And if they paid for something, they get what paid for, or they take their money back and punish the person who they feel let them down. And so I'm not surprised at how this unfolded. I'm not surprised that they just went after each other in exactly the same style. It was very I'm rubber and you're glue. And that they both seem to have acquiesced to some pressure to pull back as it was escalating. And all the people in this ecosystem they've created who are extremely dependent on both of them now came into their ears saying, oh my God, please stop, we can't manage this. Maybe you two feel confident in how you'll go forward from here, but we don't.

Sarah [00:37:19] It's interesting because much is illuminated in the way they are the same and much is illuminated in ways they are different. Elon seems vulnerable to me with all the reporting about his drug use and his ever expanding brood and the drama that brings into his life. The economic and business fallout of these choices he's made, he just seems vulnerable in a way that Trump does not. Although one of the most interesting pieces of the recent fallout that I can't stop thinking about is that NASA administrator. And what it seemed to come down to was that he had made some donations to Democrats. And I thought at this zenith of power where you have completely dominated the opposition. And with the understanding that you yourself have made donations to Democrats, why is this something that you're willing to go to the mat over? Because I don't think that Elon Musk prioritizes loyalty and flattery in the same way that Donald Trump does. I do think that he as a more rigorous dare I say intellectual approach to his pursuits than Donald Trump who is driven mostly by emotion and instinct. And so I just thought, that's wild to me.

[00:39:12] And I couldn't tell if it was just a way that an administration official used it to get between Donald Trump and Elon Musk, to force Elon Musk out because they rightfully saw him increasingly as a political liability. But still, shouldn't Trump see that ploy? First, shouldn't he understand that Elon's a political liability, and also that this dude's democratic donations is not that big of a deal right now? There are so many pieces of that just because we're getting pinprick whole vision into the unfolding drama that's hard to put together, especially because this drama is really fundamentally about two personalities with an enormous amount of power. I don't really think it was just Elon was mad about the Ev tax credits, he's not stupid, he knew he'd been talking about these electric cars for years. And Donald Trump's not stupid; he understood to a certain extent who Elon was. And why did you empower him to create DOGE? Did you think he was just going to roll over in the face of a ballooning deficit? Again, how could something we all saw coming so clearly still be so confusing in many ways?

Beth [00:40:37] I think you are really wise to point out how little we actually know about this relationship. And I keep trying to tell myself, don't project onto this. Because one, what in my life experience gives me any perspective on how either of them live, how either them occupy their relationships? But then there's a part of me that cannot resist guessing. Because I'm human and I spend a lot of time watching these two humans. And my best guess, and it is just a guess, is that Trump decided that Elon was no longer useful to him and that's about as far as it goes here. If you listen to the way that Elon Musk talked about Donald Trump a couple of months ago, it was pretty personal. I think Elon found in Trump a level of acceptance that he doesn't find in a lot of people. I think probably a lot of the people closest to Elon treat him as kind of an alien, as just a very, very weird and special, but weird guy. And those are the people that he pays. But I think he probably experiences a significant level of distance from other people all the time. And I am sure he does plenty to create that distance. This is not me saying, oh, poor Elon. I'm just trying to imagine how this goes.

[00:42:06] When he talked about Donald Trump, it was with a personal affection that to me signals that he found some sense of belonging there that he hasn't found in a lot of spaces. I have never heard Donald Trump talk that way about Elon or anybody else. They are useful to him or they are not. They are nice to him or they're not. They're doing something that advances what he wants or they aren't. And depending on which it is, they are the best or they were the worst. And they can be the best again if they fix it with him. They could be the worst again and even worse than before if it suits him. It's just whatever he needs right now. And I think especially after the Wisconsin election where it was clear that Elon was a political liability, Trump started to see that Elon is not useful to him anymore. Maybe he doesn't need the money. Now he has this power. Maybe he gets a little bit arrogant about what he can and can't control in the midterms, but he calculates that he's got to get Elon out of there for the peace of his cabinet, for the success of his agenda, and probably for the politics going forward. He's got to get Elon out of there. It's a good time to do it. I think Trump probably gambles that any fight for him is a fight he wins at the end of the day. I think he's probably right because, as you said, Elon is especially vulnerable right now in terms of public sentiment, how people feel about him. He seems unwell.

Sarah [00:43:25] Yes, for sure.

Beth [00:43:26] And this feud ultimately diminishes him. And Trump calculates that if his opponent is diminished, he is strengthened. And so that's what I think happened here. Elon is probably upset about a lot of things and fine, but I think Trump probably pushed him away in a way that felt pretty personal.

Sarah [00:43:48] Yeah, and the shred of hope I cling to, because I do think this has been a pretty bleak cycle, is this density that you're speaking to, the chaos accelerated by the National Guard's presence in California and ICE raids across the country, the continued escalation of violence in Ukraine, in Gaza, and not just violence, massive starvation, that the economic fallout of the tariffs, the continued reporting and revealing of the corruption and exploitation of the power given him for his own personal gain will build a garbage heap of chaos that will overwhelm the positive impact of exposure that he seemingly benefits from no matter how bad things get, and become a reality people cannot turn away from-- not just a reality, the truth. I don't know why it has taken me this long, but today when I was getting prepared for this episode and I looked at a screenshot of one of his Truth Social posts, and I thought, "You put truth at the top corner of everything you say. How dare you get to define that for the rest of us?" And we have got to claw that back. We have to trust what we see. We have trust what we know. We have to trust each other because I'm concerned that this garbage heap of chaos is only going to continue in the short term.

Beth [00:46:27] For sure. Also, because I'm human, I enjoyed some of the tweets around the situation. The internet was very funny. What I did not enjoy was seeing people in positions of power and responsibility get in on that action. I have not enjoyed that with the taco situation, the idea that Trump always chickens out. If you look at this falling out with Trump and Elon, if it doesn't get repaired in some way and Trump does use the power of the federal government to cancel some of the subsidies that go to Elon's companies or to cancel the contracts that the U.S. Government has with Elon's company, that will be bad. That will be bad. The alternatives to the services that are provided right now are Chinese manufacturers, OpenAI and Blue Origin, basically. Nobody in that picture that I think you also seem great and trustworthy. Maybe spread it around some, maybe diversifying is helpful. My point is we end up in the same place of what's the vision? The opening here to me for Democrats to comment on this feud is not like, haha, the buddy comedy is over. It's to say, it's really bad that if we see these contracts canceled, we will still be at the whim of a relationship pretty much between two guys. Is it going to be Jeff Bezos next? Is it going to be Mark Zuckerberg next? Is it is going to be Sam Altman next? How did we get to this point where some pretty critical services for our national security and our economy depend on the whims of just a handful of people? And how do we get out of that? That's where I think some vision and some leadership could come in that is really impactful and useful and that is not solely dependent on the public deciding that the wall of garbage has gotten too high at last.

Sarah [00:48:32] I also think it's worth pointing out that they don't seem to be concerned with our national security.

Beth [00:48:41] At all.

Sarah [00:48:43] They're gutting departments that protect us, they're shredding our relationships with allies, they are opening up, not only all of us but themselves, through the sloppy use of technology, personal phones, you name it, to all manner of Chinese and Russian and other aggressors spying. These are long games and they are opening doors for people to exploit this moment for decades. I was reading an article in the Sunday New York Times about a sting in Brazil where they shut down just this massive Russian spying ring where these Russian spies were passing as Brazilian citizens. One of the ways in which they were doing that is they had Brazilian birth certificates. And they were trying to investigate and figure out why and how? And the how was that decades ago when Russian intelligence operators were embedded inside the Brazilian government, they just created birth certificates on the off chance maybe they could use them decades from now. The Chinese are still inside our wireless infrastructure. Somebody was mirroring and impersonating the Chief of Staff, Sussie Wile's number. No one's at the watch gate, man. Because he's so consumed with his own power and loyalty in pursuit of his own or Stephen Miller's racist priorities, no one is looking out for us, our economy, our national security, our environment and recovery from natural disasters. There's no one there. There's no in there. The door is open for whoever would like to exploit it.

Beth [00:50:59] And the only people who might be able to come in and help close it at this point have all the same risk that Elon Musk had. And I don't know what we do about that, but that is what I would like to hear some leaders speak to in the coming weeks and months. And if any of them would like to come here and speak to us about it, I'd be very interested in having that conversation. There's a lot to process today. We always end by taking a break and discussing life Outside of Politics. And Sarah, you have just gotten back from what appeared based on your pictures to be a really lovely time in Italy with your family.

Sarah [00:51:44] Well, let me tell you, the last day Felix looked at us and said, "Guys, I don't know about you, but I think this trip was kind of a flop." So that was the 10-year-old's perspective.

Beth [00:51:56] Ouch, Felix.

Sarah [00:51:57] Not enough cheeseburgers. Too many ancient statues. So that was Felix's review. I felt differently.

Beth [00:52:10] I'm guessing you did.

Sarah [00:52:11] Nicholas felt differently, Griffin and Amos felt differently. But according to Felix, kind of a flop. We could not have picked two more different countries. Last year we went to Japan. They are different countries. Can you express this any more clearly? There's a really great reel from Laura Ramoso. Do you ever follow her? She does like her German mother. She's so funny. And she's been doing a lot of Italian airlines, Italian rental cars, and she does this Italian rental car where they're like, "You wanted wheels? You have to ask for wheels. Wheels are extra." We didn't have any rude, terrible experiences, but it's just we were trying to catch a bus and they're, like, the bus could be over here or not. The bus could also be over here. Or the Japanese would be like the bus will arrive at 1:37 and 56 milliseconds; you need to stand in this precise square. That's when it will show up. The doors will open; everyone will file on in an orderly fashion. It was a little less like that in Italy, but we had a truly fabulous time, whatever Felix's review was. We went to Rome. Listen, we saw Pope Bob. Did you see?

Beth [00:53:24] I did.

Sarah [00:53:25] We had seen him at the audience and were thrilled, delighted to see him from like a kabillion feet away up his little white dot in the corner. And then we were going to St. Maria Maggiore where Pope Francis is interred and we had a reservation to walk through the holy door because it was the Jubilee. We had an incredibly affecting experience walking through the holy doors and doing the pilgrimage at St. Peter's. And so we get there and they're like the church is closed. Again, totally Italian moment. We're like why? They're like we don't know. Looking at us as like we do know, but we feel no obligation to tell you. And we were like, but what do you mean? Will it be open again? They're like, we don't know. Okay. So there's an Australian couple standing there and they're like the Pope is coming. We're like what? So we're about to give up and then we saw the TV crews comes. We're like, okay, we'll wait. We waited for like three hours and he drove directly in front of us, not 10 feet away in his Pope mobile, waved. We heard him give a speech from the balcony. It was really, really incredible. Like just once in a lifetime. Very exciting, especially because he's an American Pope. So that was like our awesome Rome experience. We went to Puglia, which I highly, highly recommend. We did the Path of the Gods in Amalfi coast and it was beautiful. Although, but don't take 1700 steps down. Just don't do it. If someone says, "Would you like to do this path and at the end you'll take 1700 step down? Just go, "No, thank you."

[00:54:52] Today my calves don't hurt. We did this five, six days ago. And Amalfi is very over-touristed at this point. It is packed. It is hot. It's already just June. And I kind of knew that. And so I had seen a lot of stuff like Puglia is the place to be. We were almost on the off season. Everything wasn't quite open yet, but it was magical. So many amazing beaches. So many of its amazing food. Beautiful cities, Matera, Ostuni, just these walled ancient-- Matera is the third oldest occupied city place in the world. It's like Jericho, Aleppo, Matera. Beautiful and ancient and incredible being in ancient civilizations. We went to Pompeii, which I expected to be just a scene of destruction, I guess, and it's not. It's so preserved and they had this like tavern. There was something so familiar. It was set up like a tavern, I recognized how it was laid out and what they did there and just thinking like, oh my God, I can't believe I'm standing in this. I've been eating out for two weeks and I'm standing in this place where people did that thousands of years ago just like I do it now. It was so powerful and perspective-giving and you just wonder how we went from that to the dark ages and then are we on that path again? I don't know. Italy is a magical, magical place. The food was just stupid good.

Beth [00:56:57] I've been trying to patiently wait for you to talk in more detail about the food. I would like to hear about the best bite of food that you had on the trip.

Sarah [00:57:06] No. Respectfully, no. Thank you.

Beth [00:57:08] You can make it like three if you want, but I do need to hear specifically about the food.

Sarah [00:57:13] I could do every day. First of all, we ate an enormous amount of gelato. The best gelato we had was at Fossi, which is the oldest gelato establishment in Rome. And it was just so good.

Beth [00:57:30] What flavor did you get? Details, Sarah, with the food.

Sarah [00:57:33] They give you three flavors. And so I got pistachio. Stracciatella is my favorite flavor gelato. So I got a pistachio, stracciatella, and I think coffee maybe? I don't even remember. It was just good. We had so much gelato. There was an amazing tiramisu place around the corner from our Airbnb in Rome that had pistachios. I do want to say and emphasize that the Italians' love and appreciation for pistachios is one of their best attributes. I don't understand why we don't make everything pistachio flavored as an option. They made pistachio Oreos, thin Oreos like 10 years ago that Nicholas and I still talk about. Make them again. Please, no one wants another mint Oreo. You can just get a thin mint. Make a pistachio Oreo. The Italians would. We should follow their lead. They did wear us a little bit out with breakfast because it's like would you like a croissant filled with cream? And the first day you're like, oh my God, yes. And the second day you were like, uh-huh. And then at the end of two weeks you're like, no, I want an egg.

[00:58:41] We travel a lot. Nobody does breakfast better than America. That's just the long and short of it. No one does breakfast better than we do. Our breakfast is the best breakfast. So we were aching for some American breakfast. Obviously, we went to Naples, which is a wild city, but they invented pizza. That was definitely the best pizza we had. It was perfect. We had this food tour with this woman named Flame and she kept going, "We just love simple flavors." And it's funny because it's true. There was nothing surprising about this pizza. It's not like they put something in there like I've never tasted that before. It was just every component of the pizza, particularly the sauce was elevated and perfect. Do you know what I mean? We also had this potato pizza, just like with thin potatoes and I believe rosemary.

Beth [00:59:35] I would like that.

Sarah [00:59:37] You would like it because it was perfect. That was also exceptional. And then of course we ate an enormous amount of pasta. Rome is known for carbonara and cacio e pepe, which is cheese and pepper. Griffin had incredible cacio e pepe our last night there. And I'm going to tell you the best carbonara we had was the last night in the place we stayed by the airport, just like this suburb. The place we stayed was like you have to go this restaurant it's called the Black Sheep. It was like around the corner. It was a mom and son who were like fighting the whole time.

Beth [01:00:25] Love that.

Sarah [01:00:26] They had a chemistry. Understand what I'm saying? He was the waiter; she was the cook.

Beth [01:00:33] It's called character, right?

Sarah [01:00:35] So there was some things going on. It was the best carbonara we had the entire time. It was so good.

Beth [01:00:44] Did you have an incredible gnocchi? Because that is my favorite pasta.

Sarah [01:00:46] Yes, the gnocchi at the mothers and son restaurant was also incredible. Now, when we went to Puglia, they have a different food scene. They have this thing called all'assassina; it's spaghetti, a little spicy, and hear me out here, it's like burned. Like the pasta is burned and kind of crunchy.

Beth [01:01:09] Okay. So it crunches. I like that. I like crispy rice. I mean, that sounds like of a piece.

Sarah [01:01:12] Exactly. It was delicious and perfect. They eat these octopus sandwiches. I know you're ethically opposed to eating octopus.

Beth [01:01:21] I did see you eat the octopus and I did say a prayer for you that day because I just think they're smarter than we are and so I worry about the universal effect of them.

Sarah [01:01:28] Well, they're delicious. It's a delicious sandwich.

Beth [01:01:32] Well, you're welcome. I lit a candle for your soul.

Sarah [01:01:35] Listen, I traveled across Italy. I lit plenty of candles for my soul. I went to so many churches and lit so many candles.

Beth [01:01:43] But I know that you didn't specifically ask for absolution from our alien and overlords about that octopus.

Sarah [01:01:48] I did not.

Beth [01:01:48] I got your back on that, don't worry.

Sarah [01:01:53] That food was exceptional. So many good seafood. Also, I just feel like Italians do not get enough credit for how good their cookies are. Their cookie game is so strong. It's so strong. Candy game, less so. They lean too heavily on the hazelnut. You could not put enough emphasis on a pistachio to upset me, but they do lean a little heavy on the hazelnut in my personal opinion. They're not my favorites. But it was so good. We didn't have bad meal. I don't think. Maybe one that was meh, but God, it's just so fresh. It's so flavorful. It's prepared with love, but also maybe some frustration and a little chaos. Who knows? I don't know.

Beth [01:02:40] Is there anything else you want to share about your trip before we wrap up?

Sarah [01:02:43] I do want to say that I know that there is so much content about over tourism and you're going to get to these destinations and you just going to be slammed with people. That was not our experience. The only time I felt like cattle was at the Sistine Chapel, but that is to be expected because it is the Sisteen Chapel. And still worth it because it is a Sistine chapel. I think that these places are places that people have always wanted to visit. So, of course, there are going to be people there visiting them, but with a modicum of planning and reason. There were so many times that we were in Rome, particularly when we were Puglia (but keep that one to a secret though I don't want it to turn into the Amalfi Coast) that we were just like delightfully unencumbered and free to explore and not overwhelmed by crowds or anything like that. Again, our day in the Amalfi Coast was the only day that was like that and it was still beautiful because the path of the gods wasn't like that and it's incredible. It's an incredible hike. And so I know that Italy is a very popular destination. I know many of you are going there this summer. I will have my itinerary up soon, I promise. But don't get freaked out. We had a beautiful time and the Italians were, as they always are, incredibly hospitable and embracing and helpful and fantastic hosts and cooks.

Beth [01:04:21] Well, I'm glad that you had a great time. I'm I glad you're back. I'm glad that you all have spent some time with us today. Thank you so much for listening. We will be back with you on Friday to re-examine the year that was 2016. We will have all kinds of thoughts about what's currently happening this week on Substack. So we hope to see you there. Until then, have the best week available to you.