About protesters flying flags of their own heritage: I see this as a similar to the Rosa Parks v. Claudette Colvin scenario. Should protesters be allowed to fly flags of their heritage proudly? I think so, absolutely. However, will it help or hurt the message to the rest of the American population, regardless of what it means and the intention behind it? (edited to add: would it potentially be used against them?) I think this is where the question is and worth discussion and debate.
For background: Claudette Colvin preceded Rosa Parks in refusing to give up her seat on a bus during the Civil Rights movement, however, Rosa Parks was considered a more “respectable” representative of this part of the movement. Was it right to snub Colvin? I don’t think so. Would naming Colvin instead of Parks have changed the support for the movement? We’ll never truly know, but they suspected it might, so they decided to go with Parks.
I have only listened to about half of this episode and note that I firmly believe the president is overstepping. Even though it has nothing to do with immigration, all I could think about was the movie The Siege (from 1998, which I completely forgot about and thought it was post 9/11). Another thought is as Sarah pointed out, LA is HUGE-east coasters have not clue how big LA is and don’t understand (if they have not been there) that these protests were in limited areas. It is just so frustrating to live here under an administration insisting on purging the population of people they don’t like. I may have missed it, but did they check out Mira lago yet or any other of Trumps properties??
There was an expression in the episode of confusion as to why workplaces are being raided. It seems obvious to me (but maybe I’m way off) that the explanation (which is different than justification) for the workplace raids is to appeal to all of the, “they’re taking our jobs” people.
It was clear to me pre-election that when they said they'd go after people committing crimes, they considered the mere fact of being here a crime. It doesn't quite fit, but the movie line that runs through my head is from Full Metal Jacket. Matthew Modine asks a helicopter gunner who is randomly shooting at civilians how he knows which are Viet Cong. The gunner replies "Anyone who runs is a VC. Anyone who doesn't run is a well disciplined VC."
Regarding the flag issue, Sarah likely knows that Mexican flags are quite prevalent here. And I think many people see them as "their heritage", not necessarily the flag of Mexico. Sound familiar? ;-)
I have so many feelings about what is going on in LA. Living in Texas, I’ve seen the Republicans treat immigration and the border as a political football ever since the GOP took over Texas 30 years ago. And the Democratic Party has not been helpful either, especially Joe Biden when he was president. I’m still angry over that.
In a weird way, Newsom is winning me over. Newsom is more appealing when he’s being a fighter and not some slick politician.
Ugh.. Musk and Trump. 🙄
That’s my comment for them. It will happen again.
Great podcast. Thank you both for keeping me sane. 🩷
First, I think everything going on with ICE is awful and well worth protesting but as this post discusses we don't want to give republicans their next campaign video. Yes I get that the protests are largely peaceful. But those that choose to throw bricks or burn cars infuriate me - they have to understand that that is the only things that will play on repeat on Fox News. Those actions directly undermine any hope of changing hearts or minds.
Fun fact: Peter Coyote is my lone "celebrity" sighting. We were waiting at baggage claim and he got a phone call. That's how I recognized him. I kept listening to his voice trying to place it and honestly he was trying to walk away from me because I was being a bit too obvious about eavesdropping, which I was only doing because I was trying to decide whether it was truly Pete Coyote. But as my brother then said "if you have to explain who the celebrity is, they're not a celebrity."
I am curious (because I only found the story by looking at LA news site) if anyone is seeing coverage of the interfaith prayer vigil in LA on national media? I believe it was on 6/10. It gives a very different "look" than other stories about LA right now. (I only interact with written news...tv takes out my nervous system)
I know so many immigrants. I live in a neighborhood of immigrants, but I KNOW so many immigrants. People I spend a lot of time with. People I LOVE. I don't know the legal status of any of them and I don't care. What would I do if any of them just disappeared??? I know that's the situation that is shaking some Americans out of their stupor, but I've had multiple conversations this week from people I also love who think this is all necessary. And because they've been consuming a steady diet of lies about LA, Chicago, and NYC, they think there is no escalation. They think what's happening in LA is also necessary and that federal employees are "in danger." It's all very scary and frustrating.
I have a funny, stupid story I tell about myself trying to cross an anti-war protest in San Francisco circa 2002 or 2003. It's just a story about me feeling like an idiot. But I remember the first time I told it to my brother, he was worried I had been in danger. I was so stunned that that was his idea of what protest was like. This was just hundreds of people marching down the street peacefully, and I needed to cross the street so I had to dodge them. Anyway, we should probably educate our families about what a protest often looks like. It's not people lighting fires. Not when I'm there.
Remembering workplace raids - in the 80s? Or 90s? (don't judge, I was young and barely paying attention).
Anyway, there was also talk about consequences (or lack of consequences) for employers. They (government) added some kind of process with every hire to check status before being hired.
I remember filling out those forms for summer jobs.
But, I've buried my question - it seems like "sweeping in" employers of undocumented people would bring us to a more real discussion about the work that's being done and the people that we need to do it.
Instead of this harsh bullying treatment focused only on workers - what if there was some kind - any kind - of focus on employers.
It feels like this hypocrisy has been going on for decades.
But okay, here's my nuanced try: Congress should listen to the needs of the employers and businesses: why are they hiring people without "documents"? Is there something that government policy needs to consider?
I don't disagree but I grew up in an area of the country that had a strong negative reaction to the Confederate Flag. So why, why, why when right-wing protesters.... yeah, you don't have to answer that.
My best meal ever was in Italy, September 2011, at the Golden Chicken in Parma. Parmesean risotto, which looked like a sad pile of glop but turned out to be the best thing I've ever eaten. Also gelato, pizza, and even salad is better there, I think because it's so simple. There's no stuffed-crust meat-lovers pizza or steak salad in Italy!
I appreciated the perspective on how big LA is. This TikTok does a great job of expressing both the geography and population and how we who live here just don’t care about the immigration status of our neighbors
Just a reminder: these protesters could do it all perfectly and to your liking and it will NOT be good enough for the right. They will always find some excuse that justifies their state-sanctioned violence and injustice. The most effective thing you can do -- especially if you're a white woman -- to support their cause is to join them, not nitpick their efforts. Go to indivisible.org, find a demonstration happening near you this weekend, and show up. ❤️
FYI, I read that book with a marine biologist. She loved it. She said the octopi actually can get out of their containers, and it's a big problem. Did Shelby Van Pelt take it a bit too far? Eh, maybe. I'm cool with you eating whatever you want. Well, almost everything. There is only one true Oreo. No making pistachio Oreos or whatever the hell you asked for there.
I'm wondering if anyone in the comments has direct contact w MAHA pple bc I do and as I was listening to this episode (great, per usual) Sarah said something to the effect of she didn't think the pple who voted for T. voted for this - the ICE raids. And I'm here to say that the Maga pole in my life have texted me in past three days w comments like "Finally!" And "This is what I voted for" and "Bout time w get these illegals out." So am I just exposed to the WORST of MAGA ? Also, in terms of T not knowing what he's doing, my MAGA peeps have said as of yesterday, "He knows more that I do so I'm willing to give him a shot. It's only been six months" and other things along those lines. They are MUCH more comfortable w chaos than I am.
I think we continue to give MAGA the benefit of the doubt. The cruelty is the point - is NOT lost on them. We assume it is because to assume it isn't, is to face a really ugly truth about people we care about, sometimes love, respect, etc. Going to have to stop lying to ourselves, this IS what they voted for and are happy about it. Until it impacts them personally - it's their family farm help, it's their landscape people, it's their groceries & homes that go up in value, etc. etc. This is all fine.
I think you might be correct. This is why it is so hard. I'm not sure every trump voter wants cruelty, but the die hard Maga manosphere people absolutely seem to revel in it. Thank you for speaking this truth.
I'd be lying if I said "you're welcome." It's awful. When Trump made that quote instead of 30 dolls you'll only have 2. I honestly laughed, because I thought, Oh buddy you have under estimated the monsters we are. We had an epidemic where people were dying, and people acted like not going on vacation was an attack on their civil liberties. We are many things in America, but SELFISH is a common thread that I knew ran deep, but I didn't realize how deep until Covid. Last election I was willing to separate Trump voters from MAGA - but I am really struggling to give that grace this go round. He was just so CLEAR about his message and it was so mean & cruel - to say that's not what you voted for feels like gaslighting. Maybe they gaslit themselves first. I don't know.
I’m rarely on the FB anymore but jumped on yesterday to see posts of people I grew up with clearly happy about the raids - I do wonder though what’s the news story they are hearing
About protesters flying flags of their own heritage: I see this as a similar to the Rosa Parks v. Claudette Colvin scenario. Should protesters be allowed to fly flags of their heritage proudly? I think so, absolutely. However, will it help or hurt the message to the rest of the American population, regardless of what it means and the intention behind it? (edited to add: would it potentially be used against them?) I think this is where the question is and worth discussion and debate.
For background: Claudette Colvin preceded Rosa Parks in refusing to give up her seat on a bus during the Civil Rights movement, however, Rosa Parks was considered a more “respectable” representative of this part of the movement. Was it right to snub Colvin? I don’t think so. Would naming Colvin instead of Parks have changed the support for the movement? We’ll never truly know, but they suspected it might, so they decided to go with Parks.
I have only listened to about half of this episode and note that I firmly believe the president is overstepping. Even though it has nothing to do with immigration, all I could think about was the movie The Siege (from 1998, which I completely forgot about and thought it was post 9/11). Another thought is as Sarah pointed out, LA is HUGE-east coasters have not clue how big LA is and don’t understand (if they have not been there) that these protests were in limited areas. It is just so frustrating to live here under an administration insisting on purging the population of people they don’t like. I may have missed it, but did they check out Mira lago yet or any other of Trumps properties??
Clawing back the truth by believing our experiences and one another is so key to getting through this! Thanks Sarah for that point.
There was an expression in the episode of confusion as to why workplaces are being raided. It seems obvious to me (but maybe I’m way off) that the explanation (which is different than justification) for the workplace raids is to appeal to all of the, “they’re taking our jobs” people.
It was clear to me pre-election that when they said they'd go after people committing crimes, they considered the mere fact of being here a crime. It doesn't quite fit, but the movie line that runs through my head is from Full Metal Jacket. Matthew Modine asks a helicopter gunner who is randomly shooting at civilians how he knows which are Viet Cong. The gunner replies "Anyone who runs is a VC. Anyone who doesn't run is a well disciplined VC."
Regarding the flag issue, Sarah likely knows that Mexican flags are quite prevalent here. And I think many people see them as "their heritage", not necessarily the flag of Mexico. Sound familiar? ;-)
I have so many feelings about what is going on in LA. Living in Texas, I’ve seen the Republicans treat immigration and the border as a political football ever since the GOP took over Texas 30 years ago. And the Democratic Party has not been helpful either, especially Joe Biden when he was president. I’m still angry over that.
In a weird way, Newsom is winning me over. Newsom is more appealing when he’s being a fighter and not some slick politician.
Ugh.. Musk and Trump. 🙄
That’s my comment for them. It will happen again.
Great podcast. Thank you both for keeping me sane. 🩷
This Substack post by Peter Coyote resonated with me: https://substack.com/@petercoyote1/note/c-124092006?r=3teyel&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action
First, I think everything going on with ICE is awful and well worth protesting but as this post discusses we don't want to give republicans their next campaign video. Yes I get that the protests are largely peaceful. But those that choose to throw bricks or burn cars infuriate me - they have to understand that that is the only things that will play on repeat on Fox News. Those actions directly undermine any hope of changing hearts or minds.
Fun fact: Peter Coyote is my lone "celebrity" sighting. We were waiting at baggage claim and he got a phone call. That's how I recognized him. I kept listening to his voice trying to place it and honestly he was trying to walk away from me because I was being a bit too obvious about eavesdropping, which I was only doing because I was trying to decide whether it was truly Pete Coyote. But as my brother then said "if you have to explain who the celebrity is, they're not a celebrity."
I am curious (because I only found the story by looking at LA news site) if anyone is seeing coverage of the interfaith prayer vigil in LA on national media? I believe it was on 6/10. It gives a very different "look" than other stories about LA right now. (I only interact with written news...tv takes out my nervous system)
[sigh]
I know so many immigrants. I live in a neighborhood of immigrants, but I KNOW so many immigrants. People I spend a lot of time with. People I LOVE. I don't know the legal status of any of them and I don't care. What would I do if any of them just disappeared??? I know that's the situation that is shaking some Americans out of their stupor, but I've had multiple conversations this week from people I also love who think this is all necessary. And because they've been consuming a steady diet of lies about LA, Chicago, and NYC, they think there is no escalation. They think what's happening in LA is also necessary and that federal employees are "in danger." It's all very scary and frustrating.
I agree about the flags.
I have a funny, stupid story I tell about myself trying to cross an anti-war protest in San Francisco circa 2002 or 2003. It's just a story about me feeling like an idiot. But I remember the first time I told it to my brother, he was worried I had been in danger. I was so stunned that that was his idea of what protest was like. This was just hundreds of people marching down the street peacefully, and I needed to cross the street so I had to dodge them. Anyway, we should probably educate our families about what a protest often looks like. It's not people lighting fires. Not when I'm there.
Remembering workplace raids - in the 80s? Or 90s? (don't judge, I was young and barely paying attention).
Anyway, there was also talk about consequences (or lack of consequences) for employers. They (government) added some kind of process with every hire to check status before being hired.
I remember filling out those forms for summer jobs.
But, I've buried my question - it seems like "sweeping in" employers of undocumented people would bring us to a more real discussion about the work that's being done and the people that we need to do it.
Instead of this harsh bullying treatment focused only on workers - what if there was some kind - any kind - of focus on employers.
It feels like this hypocrisy has been going on for decades.
But okay, here's my nuanced try: Congress should listen to the needs of the employers and businesses: why are they hiring people without "documents"? Is there something that government policy needs to consider?
This is written by a comedian, but what he says about the flags at the protests HITS. Especially with the photos of protests in the 60s. The left is being stupid and we can't win if we keep doing that. https://open.substack.com/pub/mattruby/p/the-democrats-have-a-flag-problem?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android&r=2c2wq
I don't disagree but I grew up in an area of the country that had a strong negative reaction to the Confederate Flag. So why, why, why when right-wing protesters.... yeah, you don't have to answer that.
My best meal ever was in Italy, September 2011, at the Golden Chicken in Parma. Parmesean risotto, which looked like a sad pile of glop but turned out to be the best thing I've ever eaten. Also gelato, pizza, and even salad is better there, I think because it's so simple. There's no stuffed-crust meat-lovers pizza or steak salad in Italy!
I appreciated the perspective on how big LA is. This TikTok does a great job of expressing both the geography and population and how we who live here just don’t care about the immigration status of our neighbors
https://substack.com/@politicsusa46/note/c-124435246?r=3h46g&utm_medium=ios&utm_source=notes-share-action
Just a reminder: these protesters could do it all perfectly and to your liking and it will NOT be good enough for the right. They will always find some excuse that justifies their state-sanctioned violence and injustice. The most effective thing you can do -- especially if you're a white woman -- to support their cause is to join them, not nitpick their efforts. Go to indivisible.org, find a demonstration happening near you this weekend, and show up. ❤️
Alas, the Inidivisible group near me has already devolved into factionalism and infighting. :-(
😭😭😭😭
Ms. Sarah Stewart-Holland, I admire and respect you, but first you hated on Marcellus and now you ate a relative of his. What gives? 😜
I didn't hate on Marcellus! I thought she humanized octupi too much and it was an INSULT to octupi! 🤣🤣🤣
FYI, I read that book with a marine biologist. She loved it. She said the octopi actually can get out of their containers, and it's a big problem. Did Shelby Van Pelt take it a bit too far? Eh, maybe. I'm cool with you eating whatever you want. Well, almost everything. There is only one true Oreo. No making pistachio Oreos or whatever the hell you asked for there.
You know what you did 😝
Ok but this comment wins 🤣🤣🤣
I'm wondering if anyone in the comments has direct contact w MAHA pple bc I do and as I was listening to this episode (great, per usual) Sarah said something to the effect of she didn't think the pple who voted for T. voted for this - the ICE raids. And I'm here to say that the Maga pole in my life have texted me in past three days w comments like "Finally!" And "This is what I voted for" and "Bout time w get these illegals out." So am I just exposed to the WORST of MAGA ? Also, in terms of T not knowing what he's doing, my MAGA peeps have said as of yesterday, "He knows more that I do so I'm willing to give him a shot. It's only been six months" and other things along those lines. They are MUCH more comfortable w chaos than I am.
I think we continue to give MAGA the benefit of the doubt. The cruelty is the point - is NOT lost on them. We assume it is because to assume it isn't, is to face a really ugly truth about people we care about, sometimes love, respect, etc. Going to have to stop lying to ourselves, this IS what they voted for and are happy about it. Until it impacts them personally - it's their family farm help, it's their landscape people, it's their groceries & homes that go up in value, etc. etc. This is all fine.
I think a lot of people see cruelty and think that’s what justice looks like. 😞
I think you might be correct. This is why it is so hard. I'm not sure every trump voter wants cruelty, but the die hard Maga manosphere people absolutely seem to revel in it. Thank you for speaking this truth.
I'd be lying if I said "you're welcome." It's awful. When Trump made that quote instead of 30 dolls you'll only have 2. I honestly laughed, because I thought, Oh buddy you have under estimated the monsters we are. We had an epidemic where people were dying, and people acted like not going on vacation was an attack on their civil liberties. We are many things in America, but SELFISH is a common thread that I knew ran deep, but I didn't realize how deep until Covid. Last election I was willing to separate Trump voters from MAGA - but I am really struggling to give that grace this go round. He was just so CLEAR about his message and it was so mean & cruel - to say that's not what you voted for feels like gaslighting. Maybe they gaslit themselves first. I don't know.
I’m rarely on the FB anymore but jumped on yesterday to see posts of people I grew up with clearly happy about the raids - I do wonder though what’s the news story they are hearing
I doubt it’s the same one I am
ok this is HELPFUL. I was thinking today it's so frustrating to run everything through this filter...
It's been very difficult for me to maintain contact, but they are family and ....
Oof thank you for sharing this. It’s troubling but important.
😬 Thanks for sharing.