It's Funny Because It's True: Stand-Up as the Real Focus Group

Comedian Matt Ruby joins Beth to discuss comedy as a leading political indicator

In October 2024, Matt Ruby posted on Substack that he had known President Biden’s age was voters’ top issue for three years. Why? Because every stand-up comedian told jokes about it, and people always laughed.

Standup is a better leading indicator than polls

I saw Matt’s post and immediately felt the truth of it. I also felt kind of dumb for being so reticent. I knew that President Biden should not have run again. I said it for years, but I never said it emphatically enough. I convinced myself that there were maybe reasons for hold that opinion loosely, to always include an asterisk, to tread carefully.

Intense political interest can be its own form of brain rot, at least for me. I read the same commentary everyone else is reading. I feel the stakes. I hear the chorus of ten thousand voices. It’s easy to tell myself I’m sharpening, refining, evolving. And maybe I am. At the same time, I’m undeniably moving away from the perspective of people who, no, did not actually read that Atlantic essay or listen to Ezra’s latest pod, or get the scoop on that administration official from Politico. And sometimes, I undeniably untether from what I feel in my gut.

Whatever’s happening in my head, my body is honest. That’s why I love comedy. If I laugh, it’s a signal that something is attention-worthy. Matt understands that at scale, and I hope that you enjoy hearing his thoughts about the honesty in humor as much as I did.

Topics Discussed

• Comedian Matt Ruby on Political Insights from Stand-Up

• Outside of Politics: Nachos and Overrated Foods

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Episode Resources

Pantsuit Politics 10th Birthday Celebration

Matt Ruby

• Standup is a better leading indicator than polls (The Rubesletter by Matt Ruby)

• The Rubesletter by Matt Ruby (Substack)

• Matt Ruby (@mattrubycomedy) (Instagram)

• Matt Ruby (Website)

• Matt Ruby: Bolo | Full Special | Standup Comedy (2025) (YouTube)

• The 27 most overrated foods in our society (The Rubesletter by Matt Ruby)

Other Resources

• Revenge by Alex Isenstadt (Hachette Book Group)

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

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Episode Transcript

Beth Silvers [00:00:07] This is Beth Silvers; you're listening to Pantsuit Politics. Sarah is out today and I am joined by comedian Matt Ruby. Matt caught my attention around the presidential election. He was very funny and also very reflective about what it means when we laugh at something. Matt was writing about how obvious some of the issues in the presidential elections were if you were in comedy clubs. People were making jokes about and laughing about some of themes that became critical to deciding the election results. So I wanted to talk more with him about that today. But first I have to say thank you, because we are absolutely wowed by your response to our live show happening in Cincinnati this July. As I'm recording on Thursday, our tickets have been on sale for one day and we are sold out. Now, if you are bummed by that news because you plan to come, there is a wait list so you can go ahead and use the link in the show notes to get on that wait list.

[00:00:57] We also have partnered with Substack. Thank you so much to Substack for sponsoring a live stream. So we have virtual tickets on sale for just $25. Anyone can join us from anywhere. You can watch live or watch the replay when it works for you. And again, that link is in our show notes or at pantsuitpoliticsshow.com. This we ek, the news has been focused on our economic rollercoaster. I like this summary from the Associated Press. President Trump delivered another jarring reversal in American trade policy Wednesday, suspending for 90 days import taxes he'd imposed barely 13 hours earlier on dozens of countries while escalating his trade war with China. The moves triggered a stock market rally on Wall Street, but left businesses, investors and America's trading partners bewildered about what the president was attempting to achieve. Trump's U-turn came after he told us in all caps to be cool. It came after he told Republicans on Tuesday night that he knows what the hell he's doing. But apparently we were not all cool enough because on Wednesday he told reporters that people were jumping a little bit out of line. They were getting a little yippy.

[00:02:04] I'm not sure what that means, but here we are. And by Wednesday evening, members of the administration started saying that this was the plan all along. We are living the art of the deal. Lucky us. In the car this morning, my 14-year-old daughter, Jane, who is an avid New York Times reader, said, "Mom, I honestly think this is all kind of funny." And I did not react to that because the sinking value of stocks and bonds is a lot less funny when you're in your mid-40s than it used to be. But then she said, " I mean, it's funny because it's so stupid." And I feel that. I've kind of been in the dumps this week for a bunch of reasons, and it has helped me to read tweets making fun of the tariff chaos. I can't even form words around so much that it's upsetting me, but then a joke will land it. Good comedy works because it's honest. It cuts through nonsense like this was the plan all along, and it provokes a genuine and healing reaction. It gets to the feeling. It's funny because it so stupid, and that is the truth. So I'm so happy that comedian and writer, Matt Ruby, joined me to talk about comedy as a political bellwether, about the manosphere, and about how what we laugh tells us a lot about who we are and what we're worried about. Matt, welcome to Pantsuit Politics. I'm so glad that you're here.

Matt Ruby [00:03:33] Thank you for having me. Good to be here.

Beth Silvers [00:03:35] I started following you when I saw a piece that you wrote about the election and not being super surprised about what the salient issues came to be. I'm reading Alex Eisenstadt's book about what happened. And he has this chapter where he talks about moving from brat summer to bro fall. That took me by surprise, but it sounds like it did not take you by surprise. So I would love for you to talk about what you were seeing as a comedian that informed you I think beyond what pollsters and focus groups are getting.

Matt Ruby [00:04:09] Sure. I think I wind up connected to I don't know if you want to call it the manosphere or bros or a lot of that stuff that's happening in comedy right now. And I'm adjacent to it or around it at least. And yeah, I think there's sort of this overwhelming notion of society becoming overly feminized and I think cancel culture is wrapped up in that and people thinking everyone's too easily offended and they wanted to be able to say wild things. They want to be able to say retarded or tell body roast jokes. And I think Democrats just kind of seemed like the HR department trying to give a seminar and Republicans seem like the roasts where you could say anything you want. And I think a lot of men, especially young men, gravitated towards the arena where they felt like they were more appreciated versus tolerated.

Beth Silvers [00:05:05] What really grabbed me in your piece was talking about how it had been super clear that Biden's age was a problem and that wasn't translating politically. I can see people being more honest in their reactions at a comedy show than in a focus group where they're being asked questions like that.

Matt Ruby [00:05:22] Yeah, you lose the sense of politeness, which is one of the great things about stand-up, I think. Yeah, I argued that comedians are kind of on the leading edge of poles, things that people won't tell a pollster or might not say in an interview to the media, they're going to laugh at when a comedian says something if they think it's truthful. And like Biden was too old jokes were hack back in like 2022. It's already common knowledge, just like every show you go to, there would be some joke about Biden's age and the whole room would be like, yeah, that guy's practically dead, what the hell? And meanwhile, you had all these democratic leaders be like, no, he's top of his game and everything's fine. And people just weren't buying it. And then I think especially when that debate happened, it was just like reality catching up to where people had already been for a couple of years. And I think in the piece that you mentioned the example that I gave that's been happening for the past year, and this was before the election, was people complaining about how many items are locked up at drug stores, at CVS, or Dwayne Reed or Walmart or Walgreens. Everything's locked up behind glass.

[00:06:33] And that's just the subject that I've heard so many comedians do jokes about that wasn't happening three years ago and is happening now that I'm like, okay, this is representing something that people actually feel from all over the country especially in cities though where I think that's happening the most, like, what the hell is going on with our country when I can't even just go up to a shelf and grab some razor blades or perfume or whatever it is, that deodorant. What is happening in our economy and our culture and with crime and with so many other things that something that used to be completely normal now I got to press a button to have an employee come over. And it's to the point now where it's like I wouldn't even touch that as a standup comedy subject because so many other people have gone after it and I think to me that's just a sign as someone who's in comedy clubs all the time, it's like if something's coming up that much and it's always hitting, there's something about it that is resonating with the people in our culture.

Beth Silvers [00:07:27] I definitely want to hang on to that, but I want to ask you first as someone who clearly has a foot in both worlds, you follow politics closely. It's obvious. And some really astute pundits and thinkers in politics make appearances in your writing. How do you deal with the prioritization of issues by people who aren't into politics? This is part of where the HR department comes in, I think. For me, it's less that I want to police people's language or overly feminize anything. I don't really want that responsibility.

Matt Ruby [00:08:00] Sure.

Beth Silvers [00:08:02] It is more that it's hard to hear that a number of voters seem to have prioritized like being able to use whatever language they want over not having people disappeared off the street in our country. And that makes me sound so scoldy. I understand how that comes across. But the prioritization between people who follow politics and people who don't feels like this gap that I don't know how to manage right now. And I think that we're maybe losing some of that in arguing about the difference between men and women and the bros versus everything is overly feminized. I think that's true and real, especially like the Barbie phenomenon. I get it. But I also think there's something else at work here that's hard to put our fingers on.

Matt Ruby [00:08:49] Well, just to defend my gender for at least a little moment, I also think a lot of that complaining that's going on around feminization of culture or about cancel culture is symptoms of a deeper problem, which is there's a masculinity crisis going on. And also just men are in trouble in general. And we're not talking about it that much because I think especially women are like, well, you know what? Men have been oppressing us for so long. You know what, just shut up and take it. There's some view maybe that it's a zero sum game. That women will get ahead and men will have to take a step back. But then when you look at like Richard Reeve's book or Scott Galloway has talked a lot about this about how much men are suffering right now. If you look dropout rates from high school or college, suicide rates, incarceration, unemployment, inability to find a partner, there's all these ways that men are really struggling right now. And I think sometimes the complaining about cancel culture or political things sometimes can be a manifestation of those deeper struggles. And I don't think we're having an honest conversation about it as a society. Maybe we're starting to a little bit more, but I think that' at the root cause of a lot of this.

[00:10:05] And then as far as prioritizing, I certainly hear you on that. For me, my father was a prosecutor. And so, for me, what's happening right now regarding like due process, people being disappeared off the streets without any sort of trial or a judge sending these people to El Salvador, weaponizing the justice department-- I really admired my dad was actually an assistant DA and a US attorney at the Southern District in New York, which is the office where six people resigned because they wouldn't do the justice departments bidding on the Eric Adams case. I think the one guy who said "You'll find some fool or some coward who will do it for you, but it won't be me," to me, that was like, okay, this is the messaging that we need right now as opposed to these law firms and universities and tech companies who all just seem to be bending the knee. But then to me that is such a priority versus like people being like, well, I just want the price of eggs to come down. I'm like, look, if we just slip into authoritarianism, the price of eggs is going to be the least of your problems. But I do think as someone who that is my top priority, what I've noticed is it's not what other people's is. I don't think it's where society is at.

[00:11:18] We need some sort of massive ethics class to teach people why due process is important, why checks and balances are important, but it's just not where people are. And I think you've got to go to what people are feeling and where they're at and start off by meeting them there, the things that they care about most. I think that's something that the left had misplaced priorities on what they've been emphasizing and how it's not been aligning with what people really care about the most. So I think you've got to start with the things that people care about most and what they're feeling, even if it doesn't represent your reality and then work from there. I'm a big believer in things that I think have disappeared from our society, which is empathy, persuasion and compromise. And we're so into dunking on our opponents or viewing people as they're in that tribe and we're in this tribe and they're the enemy and we are the good guys. And I think sometimes that can be self-defeating. Let's say your top priority is protecting marginalized people. Well, if you keep losing elections, how good a job are you going to be doing at protecting marginalized people then? So you've got to go out and figure out how to win elections and how to combat what's happening in our country right now. And that might mean putting the things that you care about most a little bit on the back burner and focusing on the things that are actually most resonant in society right now

Beth Silvers [00:12:42] A hundred percent. And one of the things that I'm trying to really take a note from this election on is not protecting anyone. Like more standing with instead of standing in front of. Or that HR department really resonates with me, not only because I have a background in HR, but I think that's right. It gets scoldy. Sometimes I feel a lot of pressure to be almost preachy. I don't want to be any of those things. Again, I don't want that pressure. This is something that I worry about. Sarah and I have had Richard Reeves on. We talk about the masculinity crisis quite a bit. She has three sons. She cares a lot about this. And I don't know how to be anymore. I think women are getting lost here, too. There are so many men in my life who I adore, admire, respect. Almost all of my mentors with a few exceptions, a few very notable exceptions, have been men. And so I think that when I become aware of something like the masculinity crisis, and when I hear what you're saying, which I believe is true, that the cancel culture is the easy way to talk about the harder thing that's going on.

Matt Ruby [00:13:49] That's a good way to put it.

Beth Silvers [00:13:51] I don't know where my place is in that conversation because I don't think it's to fix it or to protect men. I think that's part of the problem maybe, that if we think things are overly feminized maybe I'm stepping forward too far. So I think a lot of us are just like I don't know how to be around any of this anymore.

Matt Ruby [00:14:10] Well, I think what everyone really wants at first, at least, is to feel seen and to feel heard and acknowledged. So maybe like an initial step would-- and I would say this to men dealing with issues that women are having and complaining about, is like, well, acknowledge them. Try your best to understand and empathize and at least say, I hear you. This goes into couples counseling type talk of like the first thing you've got to do is like agree on a shared reality. And then instead of making I statements, just be like, okay, well, I hear you saying this; is that right? And starting from there. But that's a little bit hazy and ambiguous. I think not demonizing the other side as the enemy is something that I would like to see everyone on every side doing right now. I don't understand how our society continues if we've decided everyone who disagrees with us is like a villain threatening the destruction of our entire society. And I think maybe I feel this way. Like my dad was very much like right-wing Republican back in the Reagan days, so it was a flavor but very much like a John Wayne loving kind of conservative. And my mom was a super liberal, Bohemian hippie who was a poet and very into the avant-garde and the counterculture. And so I grew up having those two different poles in my home which maybe gave me a little bit of a civil war in my own head and my own thoughts. But I think was also healthy on some level of like, hey, we should be able to disagree but still have conversations and be respectful and be able to love each other and realize like, hey, everyone wants the same things in the end.

[00:16:02] But I feel like that's just getting lost right now in this sea of hatred because it feels good. It gets more clicks; it gets more engagement to have conflict and to view the other side as the enemy and to have heroes and villains. So I guess maybe if I had some advice for us as a society would be try to escape that narrative of we're Luke Skywalker and they're Darth Vader, because I feel like that just puts us in this loop of like, okay, well then as soon as they get in charge, they're going to flip it on us and then vice versa, and we're just going to wind up in the cycle of the hate that never ends. So I don't know if that's a satisfying answer, but that's where I'm at with things of like, okay, can we try to find the people who are calling balls and strikes and who are being fair and who aren't tribalists and support them. And for me in my own work of what I'm writing or what I talk about on stage, trying to exemplify that and even just calling bullshit on both sides where I see it, as opposed to just trying to fit into one sort of simple flavor, which can be challenging right now. It's much easier to be like, hey, this is the tribe. I follow the talking points that I'm supposed to say, and then my comment section is filled with people telling me how right I am, and it's very seductive. And it's an easier way to monetize and to get engagement. So it's kind of like looking beyond that for more depthful truth and being willing to see that there's pros and cons on both sides of most issues.

Beth Silvers [00:17:37] I think that's part of why I'm really trying to think about spending more time outside of politics in every aspect of my life. And this is what I think comedy does in such an interesting way. So we've just had this conversation about empathy and respect for each other. And you're a comedian, and comedy can be hard, right? It's at its best almost when it's not mean, but it's so truthful that it pierces you in a way that provokes this big reaction, right? And sometimes I wonder if we're so annoyed with each other and worse than annoyed politically because we really don't have that searing honesty. It is just kind of a managed performance on all sides of a discussion. So I've been listening to more Joe Rogan and stuff, just trying to see like what is working out there for people who don't love politics, but are getting politics fed to them one way or another? And how do we pierce through some of this more instead of just saying the thing that we're expected to say?

Matt Ruby [00:18:47] Yeah, I agree. Politics is boring. I majored in political science and I've been interested in it my whole life. But also it's like I don't think everyone should be into politics. It's like a really lame filter for viewing everything in life. Like, I'm with you, go out and go to a comedy show or go dancing or sing in a choir. There are so many other things that are a better use of most people's lives. And I think when you talk about that truth and that piercing, I also think if you go to a standup comedy club everyone kind of comes together in laughter in a way that represent in my view some sort of like a substantial truth in a that you don't always get online where you'll have people complaining or they got offended or how dare you. You made a joke about cancer. Well, my brother-in-law has cancer. And, well, you know what, you go to a comedy club, it's not all about you. Okay, your brother-in-law might have cancer, but there's a room full of people here laughing about this topic, and it's okay. We can laugh about anything. This is my view. Anything should be fair game. As long as you got a good punchline and there's like a interesting and surprising point of view there, why wouldn't you be able to talk about anything? Whereas, online, I think we get very into this sort of bubble of everything should fit my worldview and align with how I feel about things. And if it doesn't, it's wrong and bad.

[00:20:19] And you mentioned Joe Rogan. I think there was a discussion about we needed Joe Rogan of the left. And I've written about that because I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding of Joe Rogan by people who don't listen to him, that he's just talking about right wing politics all the time. It's like, no, there's three a half hour episode that almost barely touch on politics at all. He's talking about MMA and Viking documentaries and human growth hormone and shooting elk and so many other things that have nothing to do with politics. So if you want a Joe Rogan of the left, make it some guy who's talking about stuff that dudes are interested in. And then maybe slip in an occasional political view every once in a while, but it's not the dominant mode of conversation that's happening there. If you want my overarching theory on culture and politics and society right now, it's that technology is screwing us over and that we're addicted to screens and these algorithms are our new overlords and these tech platforms are fracking our brain stems via conflict and outrage and tribalism. and it's easy to just fall into a bubble of just like existing in your own world where it's like this ego inflation device where you're always right, anyone who disagrees with you is the enemy.

[00:21:43] And you know good for you and it's just like it's all about you constantly and so like I think the biggest challenge we have right now is to get outside of that ego inflation whether it's through you know some of the things I mentioned of joining up with other people in a book club or worshiping or dancing or comedy or singing or whatever else it is where you're around other people and synchronizing in some way and realizing that it's not all about you. Or get out into nature, meditate. Anything that's the antidote to me, me, me, all the time and something's more that's like we're all connected. That person's hurting. I'm hurting. If we're a society, how do we all kind of grow together as a forest instead of viewing myself as some individual tree. I think is the answer to so much of the negativity that's happening in our society right now. And that's what the psychedelics taught me, so I like to try to communicate.

Beth Silvers [00:22:50] I wonder if all of that technology and that sort of myopia that we have going makes it harder for you as a performer to have those moments of piercing honesty on stage. Do you feel like you have to go harder than you would have in the past or in a different direction or like what is it like to try to get people to feel something in this time when we're pretty numbed out by all the things that are trying to get us to feel.

Matt Ruby [00:23:19] Sure. One of the holy things about a comedy club is you have to put your phone away. So even that, here's an hour and a half where you're going to-- at some clubs they actually take your phone and put it into a pouch. You can't even look at it. Like that in and of itself makes the comedy club feel like a sacred space in our society right now. We're like look at us, it's a room full of people, none of us are on our phones and we're all paying attention to the same thing and trying to process it. That in itself is like the solution to so much of the problems that we're experiencing as a society right now.

Beth Silvers [00:23:52] I want Pam from the White Lotus everywhere just outside every event being like "I'll just have your phones right here. Give it back when you’re done."

Matt Ruby [00:23:58] Totally. It's happening at a lot of shows now, which is great. And then the other thing I'll say is I don't think people being tense or offended or unsure about what you're saying on stage is necessarily a bad thing. I think it can be really captivating and a way to grab people's attention. I think Bill Burr is a great example of a comedian who does this, who will state a premise upfront that you're like, whoa, I don' know about this. And then it's like watching him dig out of that hole is part of the entertaining factor. It's also great for crowds that aren't really paying attention or a little bit asleep or something like that. Sometimes you've got to say something provocative just to grab their attention. The first thing you need is everyone like, okay, where's he going with this? So to me, it is a fun energy to try to poke people a little and then use that energy almost in like a jiu-jitsu sort of way.

[00:24:51] Like, okay, I've got their attention. It might be a little bit skewing negative or they don't know where I'm going or feel confident about it. But if you can use that and twist it into something that's truthful for you and has a funny punchline and is going to a good place, then I feel like you build up even more confidence and a relationship with the crowd of like, okay, we didn't know you were going but you really pulled that out. That was actually really funny. Now all of a sudden we've got an even deeper bond. I think sometimes I try to steer into that almost in a way of like, yeah, I'm going to say something out of the gate that might seem a little messed up, but come with me. I've been doing this for a while. I know my job here is to get laughs. I'm trying to be funny. This isn't just me giving some hate speech or Ted talk or something. I'm here to tell jokes and let's get into some stuff. Let's have a real conversation. Let's talk about stuff that you can't talk about at work or anywhere else because that's what you can do at a comedy club. Let's use the space in a way that we can do stuff here that we can't do anywhere else, which I think is part of what makes comedy so great.

Beth Silvers [00:25:52] I watched a clip of you roasting an audience member over his outfit. You were like, you work in finance, you live in Connecticut, like just...

Matt Ruby [00:26:00] The Patagonia vest guy.

Beth Silvers [00:26:03] Yes. And it was great. And I also just wonder what that's like for you. Because I think some of this is very relevant to all of us who want to have better conversations with people, whether it's about politics or religion or anything hard. Being willing to hold that. I just poked you a little bit. I said a word you don't like. I shared an idea that you hate. I'm advocating for a politician you think is despicable, but I'm willing to hang in with you and feel that and trust that we can make something of it. That seems broadly applicable to me.

Matt Ruby [00:26:39] Yeah, well, I think as a society we've lost our ability to handle discomfort. Again, this goes back to what phones and technology have done to us. It's like we live in this constant Prozac state of like nothing is that high, but nothing's that low either. We're always just sort of baseline like, okay, I'm in my safe zone. And I think the comedy club stage is a place where you might get a little uncomfortable or things might be awkward. And you might face rejection. Not just one person rejecting you, but an entire room rejecting you of being like we don't like what you're saying right now. And also that means we kind of don't you. And you just got to sit in it. But what you realize after years of doing that it's like, okay. You still get to go home and go to sleep. They might be staring daggers at you, but they're not actually stabbing you. What's really happening here? Especially if you're intentions are to get laughs or say something interesting. It's like, hey, all right, I'm trying to be funny here you guys. It didn't work out well this night. And this is also like it doesn't matter how long you've been doing standup or how great you are, you're still going to have those nights every once in a while.

[00:27:48] So you just sort of take it the same way. Even the best baseball player is going to fail at his job 70% of the time. And that's just part of the part of a deal. So I think something in general that people could work on is handling awkwardness and even rejection better and just embracing it as part of what happens in life. I would tie this into dating apps taking over how people are meeting and now men don't even approach women out in the wild hardly ever anymore. And everyone seems to be fairly dissatisfied with that, overall. Yet, I think there's just like a real fear of rejection and they're like, what if I go up to this person and I say something and they're not into it? That's fine. That's how society worked for thousands of years and it was okay. And only recently have we become so obsessed with never feeling discomfort in any way that I think it's kind of holding us back.

Beth Silvers [00:28:51] Yeah, and I wonder what that is because there's a part of me that completely agrees, and there's another voice in my head that's like, but man, we're uncomfortable with everything all the time because we're inundated with how terrible things are. We're aware of suffering on a scale that's new for us. So a metaphor I've used before is like have we been hit by an asteroid the way the dinosaurs did and we haven't figured out how to adapt yet?

Matt Ruby [00:29:18] Yeah, I think the internet is going to be one of those like printing press-esque technologies that will be like, wow, this is a huge game changer for all of society. But I'd also like to gently push back on like, yeah, we are aware of so much suffering that we weren't aware of before. But how much is that clouding over that we're the luckiest people who have ever lived in the history of the planet? If you could get in a time machine and go back to some random place and time in the past, would you do it? And my advice to you would be like, hell no, don't do it because there's nowhere you're going to go where you're going to be happier about what's happening than right here, right now. We are so lucky and so fortunate and we have so little gratitude for it that I wonder sometimes if we're being fed this algorithmic avalanche of rage and suffering and conflict that we're losing sight of the fact of how lucky we are and we're not celebrating that, we don't experience gratitude. We're not thankful because everything feels like it's terrible and going off the rails all the time. But I go back to like, yeah, I get it. We wish it was this way and it seems like it was that way, but also in the big scheme of things, let's keep things in perspective, which I think is a really challenging thing for us to do right now.

Beth Silvers [00:30:36] I have a 14-year-old and almost 9-year-old daughter, and whenever they spiral with me about what's happening in the world-- they're big on World War III. I feel like at school World War III gets discussed a lot. Whenever they say that, I tell them, listen, this is the best time. In earlier versions of history, all three of us would be burned as witches because we're smart and interested in interesting things, you know?

Matt Ruby [00:30:57] Yeah.

Beth Silvers [00:30:57] So we're going to be okay. I guess what I wonder is how we process all of that suffering at scale that we're aware of before holding it alongside the fact that this is the best time ever to be alive. And then also be willing to be with the suffering that's right in front of us. Because I think that's the difficulty. You go, well, my neighbor just had surgery, but thousands of people are dying in Ukraine and in Gaza. And so we are not present with what's just right here that we could influence more.

Matt Ruby [00:31:32] No, I agree.

Beth Silvers [00:31:32] Because our heart is like in a million tiny pieces all over the world.

Matt Ruby [00:31:37] Yeah, I think that's well said. I think, yeah, our brains are not able to scale the way our technology scales. I think we've got this massive data bandwidth, but we don't have the emotional bandwidth to keep up with it. So we're aware of so much death and destruction and suffering that's going on in so many places far away that we used to never even know about, but I think maybe the solution is baked into that too. To focus on local to instead of try to absorb everything that's going bad everywhere. To be like, oh, is your neighbor just had surgery? Well, can you bring them a home cooked meal or can you do something nice for them? Can you mow their lawn while they're recovering? Is there something that you can do just for the people nearby you? Is there a way to get into a room with your neighbors or your community or people who are enjoying the same things as you and just connect on that wavelength instead of being drowned by this sea of everything that's going wrong everywhere. Which yeah, at that point, then you can just get overwhelmed and feel helpless.

Beth Silvers [00:32:43] So I want to go back to this idea of comedy as sort of harbinger. What are people laughing and talking about now? We're well post-election. Joe Biden has moved on. We're in this weird first hundred days that feels like drinking from a fire hose with the Trump administration. But what is out there that you think this is going to be the next thing and this is what the people who are going to come next need to be attuned to?

Matt Ruby [00:33:10] Technology and with AI coming in and what that's going to do to our society and jobs and art and things, I think is the next thing that like as a society we're all going to have to process and handle. I don't think we're completely there yet, but I think it was a tweet or somewhere that I saw that stuck with me like I don' want AI to make art so I can spend all my time doing dishes in the laundry. I want AI to do the dishes in the laundry so I can make art. And I think that to me touched on how all this AI stuff is coming and how much it's like it's going to change everything. And I think that might be good for these tech companies, but I think normal people are like, yeah, I don't know that I want it to. Like, what's it going to do? How is this going to make my life better? Because it seems just like it might destroy the world. Like 20% chance it's going to destroy the world, 50% chance it's going to steal my job, and 80% chance it's going to be complicated and something I don't understand. And I think there's a lot of like fear and just sort of like what the hell is going to happen there. So I think that's a big thing.

[00:34:26] I think what's happening with this administration right now, I just feel like everyone's still processing it. To me, it was clear from the period between election day and inauguration day was this little honeymoon period where everyone got to pretend it was going to be something it wasn't. And I was sitting there just like being like you've got to be kidding me. Are we really all pretending like we don't know what's going to happen. And I got called a naysayer and I had a bunch of friends who were like, no, it's a vibe shift. You don't get it. This is going to be great for the economy. And I'm just like, all right, I'm pretty sure he's a delusional, narcissistic con man who only cares about himself. and my only evidence is his entire goddamn life. And he's not a great businessman. He's a reality TV show host. He's great negotiator. He's not great negotiator. Hey, he wrote The Art of the Deal. He didn't write The Art the Deal. It's all a con all the way down.

[00:35:23] And I guess just on some level I thought it would take longer for the vibe to re-shift, but now I'm sitting here and being like, all right, welcome back to reality, everyone. I don't know where you were floating around for the past couple of months. So I think that there will be a processing of that. And I do think maybe we're in a cycle now of whatever the establishment is will immediately be torn down because our whole information ecosystem is based on conflict and rage and hating the establishment. So I might be done with like two term presidents. I think whatever happens when someone gets elected is like immediately everyone will turn to hating them. I think that might just be the cycle that we're in moving forward of whoever's in charge will not be trusted and will be the enemy and then we'll just keep shuffling new people in and then we'll have a new person to tear down.

Beth Silvers [00:36:18] Not a new dynamic in human history, but happening faster.

Matt Ruby [00:36:22] Yeah. Well, we used to have two-term presidents. And so, to me, that's like a signal shift of like how quickly this went from honeymoon to frustration to fury is this massive acceleration that we didn't use to have. And he's obviously a special character, but I wonder if that's just our new reality that we just hate on everything.

Beth Silvers [00:36:47] I want to go back to that AI tweet because I think about that tweet all the time myself. And then I also wonder if I'm not doing the dishes and the laundry, can I make art? Like how important are these tangible grueling human experiences to creating interesting things? But that takes me back to comedy because I wonder when you think about technology and what's coming, are we ready to laugh about that yet? Are there ever subjects that you're like this I feel coming, but people aren't ready to laugh about it yet? It feels like there's something, there's a sweet spot maybe where you're ahead of the think pieces but not too far ahead of what people can re ally process in their bodies the way that you have to process something that's funny.

Matt Ruby [00:37:30] Yeah. When you're on stage, especially it's like air leaking out of a tire all the time. And you're like the longer you go between punchlines, the worse off you are. So I think the reason I bring that up is as far as what you're talking about. You don't want to have to be explaining to people what you were even talking about. Like if I have to explain to you what crypto is or what AI is, and that's going to take me like 90 seconds just to set that up before I can even get to the joke, this is bad area to go into. And this is something I face a lot because I'm like, hey, I want to talk about this thing that everyone knows about. And then I get on stage and I try talking about it, they're like, yeah, we don't know what you're even talking about right now. Which is a trap that I think especially like extremely online people can fall into of thinking that your online reality is what everyone else is experiencing. I see this a lot with Elon Musk when he talks. And I'm, like, dude, you're just so online that you think this is something that everyone knows what you are talking about and no one knows what you're talking about in this room. To get back to your question, I do think, yeah, you need to meet people where they're at.

[00:38:37] And you can't be talking about a bunch of stuff that people have never heard of, or just for people who listen to the Ezra Klein podcast all the time or something like that. So it's part of what I love about standup, too. I think it's very easy online to get into some wonky territory or just read the right Substacks and listen to the right podcasts and be like, well, this is what's happening with society right now. It's like, no, I go on stage and I'm talking to real people all over the country and a lot of times they don't even know about any of that. What they know about is the price of eggs is too high. And I know that was the cliche during the election. But it's like, hey, if that's what everyone cares about, then you got to care about it too if you're trying to win people over. And that goes for being a politician with votes and it goes for be a comedian on stage. You got meet people where they're at, talk about stuff that they know what you're talking about and try to find the thing about that subject that's surprising yet also truthful.

[00:39:29] That moment where you're not going to get a laugh if you don't say something surprising. Every punchline has a twist or a surprise in it. But the ideal joke isn't just some absurdist avant-garde, like, I don't even know where that came from. It's like, oh, I didn't expect that, but also, you know what, I think that's true. And so I think the goal that you're always mining for when you're on stage as a comedian is like this is something I've never heard before and I came up with it. And a roomful of people were like, oh, I didn't expect that. And also, that's kind of true. And that's a very hard Venn diagram to nail. So it's just this ongoing process of seeking that out.

Beth Silvers [00:40:07] Well, it convinces me that if I were an up-and-coming politician, especially an up-and-coming democratic politician, I'd probably try to spend more time in comedy clubs and probably talk to more standup comics, especially people who play small crowds. Because that to me seems like the hardest thing. To work your material in an intimate room and feel all that reaction coming back at you and say something true that does cut through, that does make people feel something, that also builds that trust bank even as you're hearing some things that you're like, whoa, I don't like that. And that feels like the challenge for the next great American leader to me.

Matt Ruby [00:40:45] And I'd add in one who tours around too because that's when you know a joke really has legs. It's like I did this at the Comedy Cell in New York City and then I also did it in Oklahoma or in Michigan or Idaho or somewhere else and be like, okay, if this joke hit with that room full of people and then also hit with room full people and then did it at an urban show and it hit there, okay, now I know I'm onto something. And I think, especially when we're talking about politicians trying to win national elections, I agree. I think that's a great sounding board for figuring out what really resonates with people.

Beth Silvers [00:41:33] Well, in keeping with the idea that we don't take anything too seriously and we try to have some levity and some perspective, Sarah and I always end our episodes talking about something Outside of Politics, and I just felt that you dropped a very spicy take about nachos not being all that they're cracked up to be and I'd like to hear more about it.

Matt Ruby [00:41:49] Sure. Well, yeah, I published a piece at my Substack, matruby.substack.com if you're interested about the most overrated foods in our society. And nachos were on the list. There was a couple of controversial ones. I feel like there's some that everyone agreed with me on-- or not everyone, but a lot of people agreed with me on. Truffle oil I think is like con is an excuse to charge you $5 more for fries. Oysters, I just think are like ocean snot. Anytime there's a food and people like, "Well, you don't chew it, you just swallow it," I'm like, "I don't know, chewing is my favorite part of eating. I enjoy that part of it." Orange wine, I don' like it. Whenever someone starts talking about skin contact or whatever, I'm just like, yeah, just bring me a Pinot Gris, I'm fine. But the nachos, that was a controversial one. And my argument is not against nachos empirically, it's the way the toppings are applied to nachos. I feel like there's a real inequality. I'm the Bernie Sanders of nachos. I think 1% of the nachos are getting all the toppings and then the rest are being left out. They're naked. And we're not addressing the have-nots in the nacho community because you get the first couple of bites and then like, oh, those are great. And then you've got a bunch of naked nachos underneath. No one's able to have [inaudible].

[00:43:01] And this is a problem if you're at a bar and everyone's going in first to try scoop the nachos that have some toppings and stuff. I don't know, I think the unequitable distribution of toppings in the nacho community is an unaddressed crisis that I wanted to bring up so we could have more dialog around that. And if I may, perhaps my most controversial take was that hot sauce is overrated. And people are like, what? You don't like hot sauce? What kind of monster? And it's like, no, I said overrated. Because I do like hot source; what I don't like is people making liking hot sauce their entire personality, which I've seen too many people. Beyonce has done this. Hillary Clinton did this. Like, I like hot sauce; I'm interesting. I like, no, that's just the food equivalent of like a dude wearing a fedora. It doesn't mean you have a personality. It's not that I dislike hot sauce, I dislike the hot sauce phenomenon where people like, "Guess what? I like Hot Sauce. Aren't I unique and special?" I'm like, no, we all like hot sauce. It's fine. Good luck with that, Hillary, but I'm not buying it.

Beth Silvers [00:44:01] It's just so hard to be unique and special. And we're all just digging for our own paths out there. And it then just lumps us in with the people who are trying too hard to be unique and special. It's tough.

Matt Ruby [00:44:12] I do own a fedora, so maybe I'm guilty here, too, you know?

Beth Silvers [00:44:16] Everybody has their thing, right? We could all be criticized for making that thing too much of our personality. I wanted to bring up the nachos also because I just saw that Subway is doing this foot long nacho situation. Are you aware of this?

Matt Ruby [00:44:28] I was not aware of this.

Beth Silvers [00:44:30] I think you need to investigate. I don't like the footlong phenomenon in general. I don' think we needed footlong churros. That sounds like a way to make a bad churro to me.

Matt Ruby [00:44:38] I've never heard of this.

Beth Silvers [00:44:39] I've tried them from Subway. No, Subway's doing that too. The restaurants, they make the foot-long sandwiches. They have the foot-long churros. And now they're going to have foot- long nachos. So I just would like to know if you ever experienced those, if they nail the distribution of toppings or not.

Matt Ruby [00:44:51] Empirically, I'm opposed to the idea of measuring nachos via distance, alright? Maybe height. The height of the nachos maybe. Is it at a foot high? Maybe I could see that. But you're just lining up nachos. It's like how many nachos to reach the moon is the next question I have. I don't know. This won't be the first time I've been opposed to Subway and whatever they're doing. So I guess I'll just add it to the list of alongside meat that comes out of a tennis ball can.

Beth Silvers [00:45:23] Yeah, it's a good point. We just don't need to track our food by its height. Thank you so much for spending time with me today. Tell everyone if they want to follow you in more depth where they can find you. So you mentioned your Substack. What else do you have going on?

Matt Ruby [00:45:39] Yeah. Instagram, Matt Ruby comedy. I post clips there all the time. And then I've got a website, Mattrubycomedy.com where you can watch my standup specials. I've got a new one called Bolo that's up on YouTube and that Mattrubycomedy.com, that's got all my specials and email list and links and all kinds of good stuff there. And then also I'm going to be touring upcoming. I'm going to be in Chicago and San Francisco and DC and Pittsburgh and Connecticut. So all that you can find at Mattrubycomedy.com under the show's link.

Beth Silvers [00:46:13] Perfect. Thank you.

Matt Ruby [00:46:14] Thank you, I appreciate it.

Beth Silvers [00:46:17] Thank you so much to Matt Ruby for joining me. Check out all of the links in the show notes to find him elsewhere. Don't forget to get your tickets to our live show at pantsuitpoliticshow.com. Sarah and I will be back together with you for a regular episode next Tuesday. Until then, have the best weekend available.