“Moms have been holding it down for so long and are so great at building community,” Mr. Gonzales said. “I didn’t have a lot of dad friends in New York, and I really wanted to connect with people who were going through a similar experience,” he added.
I have a great secure husband who is basically your all American guy next door dude. He has more close male friends than I have female friends. They are connected and close, and great dads. (His best friend is basically Yukon Cornelius in MAGA form, and that bothers me a bit, but not Hubs.)
In general, when women need to get together to feel whole and connected, we do: girls nights, book clubs, shopping, kids’ sports, etc. it’s all socially acceptable. There are times in our lives when it’s more feasible than others, but by and large I feel like women TRY.
Here’s what I’m ingesting from the male side: I’ve asked Rob if he wants to get together with his friends without me and the girls, just dudes, no family. SHRUG. You guys want to golf? Go to happy hour? Sports league? MEH. It seems like the message is: if men hang out with too many women, that’s too feminized, too “gay” (sorry, I hate that too). But men can’t just hang out with other men. That’s ALSO “too gay.”
My dad had church and the Lion’s Club. I don’t know what this generation of men has for themselves. But it’s not my fault if they sit on the couch watching Joe Rogan bitch about it instead of taking action. I’m really kind of DONE hearing about it.
Huh. I would describe my husband the same way. (And most of his friends as well. Including a few MAGA Yukons.) Around here (western mid-west) the guys are more likely to hang out on the regular in their own group than the women are. Every social group I touch (and there are many thanks to my kids, my work, and my own social interests), the guys have no problem scheduling time to do *whatever* (golf, concert, some sports thing, just hang at someone's house, play on a rec league, etc) while the women rarely if ever get together without kids or without spouses. And when they do they often talk about the "penalty" for a night out - cleaning up the disaster at home or spending all day with their kids the next day so the spouse can "recover".
First, I found it interesting to encounter this conversation again but with just Beth’s point of view. Sometimes I feel like Sarah can passionately overwhelm the overall tone, knowing that this is a topic that directly touches her personal life.
I heard a few different things from Matt: there is a masculinity crisis; alongside that, people aren’t able to handle being uncomfortable like in the past; and, we are living in a time of great prosperity and it’s the best time to be alive.
How I interpreted that was that a lot of what is going wrong with men today involves the enfranchisement of women. Men not approaching women any more isn’t just because of dating apps, but (from someone who dated within the past 5 years) also because women don’t need to have a relationship to live in a certain way. Meaning, women aren’t obligated to respond positively to those social overtures. And how is it the best time to be alive, but the men are collectively suffering?
It feels like the MAGA argument that what is wanted is a style of living that is no longer supported by the way society has evolved. We can’t return to a place where women are socially second class citizens in order for men to feel OK again. I don’t really believe that’s what this conversation is driving towards but sometimes that what I hear. It feels like when it’s said that men aren’t doing well, what is meant is men aren’t doing better than women. OK, and??????
It's interesting to read the comments on this episode because I did not plan or or perceive it in real time to be primarily about the gender conflict/crisis of men and boys. Anytime this topic comes up, I feel a strain in myself that the comments illuminate.
On one hand:
I have two daughters, and I worry about them being respected in the world (broadly--will they be physically respected, will their civic rights be respected, will they be respected in workplaces, in churches, etc). I also worked as a young professional in a profession that was dominated not just by men but by a kind of Mad Men hangover. And we have extensively covered what's happening to women all over the country since the Dobbs decision. So I hear and feel everyone who's saying a version of "excuse me? Women have not dethroned men and become the oppressors."
On the other hand:
I'm pretty sure Sarah taught me the expression "just because the person next to you has cancer doesn't mean your foot isn't broken." I don't want to be competitive about the relative suffering, historically or presently, of men and women. I see that many, many men of all ages and at all levels of socioeconomic status are not flourishing. I see an education system and jobs landscape that are out of sync with each other in ways that will likely compound this problem over the next generation. And I observe that my own reaction to this problem vacillates between "emergency! You, Beth, should figure out how to fix this!" and "seriously? If there's a problem, you made it" -- two reactions that are equally condescending and useless in their own ways AND that I would never direct toward the complaints of any other categorical group.
I appreciate the push, always, to work through this strain in myself. I realize in every conversation about boys and men that probably the best posture I can take is just to listen and care and believe that there is a real challenge here and consider what that means.
I tremendously appreciate Matt's willingness to discuss this more the comments. I respect Matt's approach very much.
And I appreciate, always, all of you listening and thinking with us and expressing your views so openly.
I like to think that some of this is generational--or I did until recent events began to prove me wrong. I have three brothers and nearly a dozen nephews and the conversation about "like a girl" being pejorative has been ongoing FOR DECADES. It's exhausting. But it also seems to be getting better as the nephews get younger. I'd love to blame the phones for this (because I do blame the phones for almost everything), but clearly these attitudes were not only always here, but possibly worse in the past. And among the men that I have close relationships with, who I spend time with, love and trust, etc. I've only managed to convince two to seek any kind of professional help for problems. They talk to me instead of their friends, but they won't talk to a counselor or join a support group--in person or online, free or paid. I'm flattered that they trust me, but I can't provide the kind of help they need sometimes.
And look, we just happen to be at a crossroads right now, where rights won over decades are being chipped away and as a woman (and a lesbian), I DON'T SEE MEN SPEAKING UP. (I made a post about this in the FB group and not one man even reacted or responded to it.) The men I mention up there ^ not a word. They think women shouldn't panic. They've never been subject to a law that makes them property of the state. So it can't be a surprise that when it's implied that women should help solve a problem that we didn't create, that we actually rose above, it looks like we are once again being put back in a role that the default population finds the most comfortable.
I also appreciate Matt's willingness to discuss more the comments. We can be a tough audience. But I'd also rather be having this conversation in real life. ;)
I agree that we don’t want to view any of these issues as a zero-sum game. The world would be much healthier with ALL people flourishing as themselves! However, using these statistics to prove that men aren’t doing well still looks at the problem in that zero-sum way. It’s safe to say we will never be perfectly 50-50, so what is our goal in these areas? If men are "losing" it’s a crisis, but what is it called if women are losing?
Men are more likely to engage in physical aggression. Men are more likely to use drugs and/or alcohol to cope with problems. This plays a role in both increased incarceration and increased rates of death via suicide. Women are more likely to attempt, while men are more likely to die via suicide. This seems to be at least partially due to the different “methods” men vs women typically use in their attempts. None of this is new. (Hi, my mom worked in mental health and our whole family attended/helped a lot with her community efforts) Of course, we want the overall rates of suicides for all people to be lower, but the contrast in incarceration and suicide rates will likely always exist. I believe that is just part of the differences between men and women.
I was an Athletic Training major and worked as a college AT during grad school (a conservative leaning school), so spent a significant amount of time with young men. I have even said working with the football team was like having 60 brothers. I witnessed quite a bit, more than I would have just existing as a girl. Some good, some not so good. Locker room talk? Been there. (Also much tamer than anything DJT claimed as such) Training room talk? Yup. Cat-calling girls walking on their college campus from a charter bus with closed windows so they clearly won’t hear you? Also yes. Standing a couple feet away from the spot on the wall a guy decided to punch, two times in one morning? Mmhmm. So, I am not naive to the male world. I will say that a lot of the young men I knew in my college and grad school years have continued to grow into even better people, which is encouraging.
The common thread among men I appreciate spending time with is that they are comfortable with themselves. They don't need to bully people or "punch down" to show off or prove their "manliness." My best guy friend from college played football as a defensive end. He was formidable on the field, and probably intimidating if you didn't know him, but also the goofiest kid and a major nerd. I sometimes think about how thankful I am to have gotten to be his friend, because he is someone who is committed to good. Knowing that he exists helps me to convince myself that there are other people, especially men, who are committed to good in the world.
I think it comes down to valuing and respecting women, and men! If you don't value or respect women, then of course you would shy away from anything deemed "feminine." If you don't "like" or respect women, then what they tell you will not matter, even if they are trying to help you. If you seem to hate women or only view them as objects, then they probably will not want to date you. And then men get lonelier and angrier. And women want to stay even further away from men. How do we change this vicious cycle? I believe that parenting plays a huge role in this (and so many other societal issues). But then the question becomes, how do we get "good" parents who value both men and women? At some point in the cycle, someone has to *want* to be better. Not perfect, just better. Those of us who know better should do better. And we need to keep our eyes and ears open for others we can help and influence along the way.
This episode left me with encountered feelings. First, I think like most commentators here, certain word shocked me. Specially as the dad of a girl in the spectrum and borderline IQ. I think saying “r-word” as he wrote above would have conveyed the meaning without the, imho, the unnecessary shock. Second, I am fine with meeting where they are at. But to paraphrase and misuse Jesus’s words, what good will it do to a party to win an election if they lose their soul? There has to be a way to do both. Third, I heard few words repeated many times in different combinations. Fourth, on the very positive side I agree that tribalism is a huge problem. The acceptance wholesale of everything a group stands for just to belong is problematic. Also agree that normal life (as if I knew what that is) is a better barometer than focus groups and consultants on what’s really going on. Finally, I agree that being outside politics is good. However, only politics is narrowly defined as partisan politics. Partisan politics is about the “activities, actions, and policies used to gain and hold power in a government or to influence the government”. I am more Aristotelian with a broad view of politics as the “art of living together in community” It’s about citizenship, responsibility, ethics, and the conditions for human dignity. Fifth, I have never understood what is the “man problem”. If you can, please, enlighten me. Or point me to a good resource that helped you.
A. The problem is feminization? First of all, here we go again blaming women. I’ll be honest, I wish I was half the woman my wife is. I’d be at least three times a better person than I am right now.
B. Where are men (especially white, bro type men) prevented from participating, having a seat at the table, and normally at the head of the table, who is systematically excluding them?
C. I don’t deny that there are records of deaths of despair disproportionately among certain groups.
D. But why are men self selecting out of college or trade education? Why the incel phenomenon? I don’t know. I am mystified by this.
E. I am not a man’s man. More Belle than Gaston in my preferences, still a cisgender straight married to a woman guy. Just not good at expectorating, haven’t been in a fisticuffs since 4th grade, never had owned, used, and held just once, a gun. I am not into sports, neither participating nor watching. I don’t hunt. I don’t like things with bone like wings, ribs, that kind of stuff. I love the great indoors, books, digital coloring, and cheese. I barely know where the gas goes in my car, don’t care for cars, bikes or boats, and don’t know how to fix things at home. Am I the problem? Have I’ve been feminized? Should I be more of a macho?
F. I wasn’t born to money, and didn’t made any. I am a couple of paychecks away from homelessness.
G. So there’s my ignorance in display. I don’t understand the “man problem”.
Here ends this week edition of long winded ramblings with X.
I think my husband is right there with you, although he has a minor amount more experience with guns. He used to hunt as a kid but gave it up happily when he started dating me and realized I had an aversion to firearms. I had him listen to one of the male crisis episodes a few months ago. He also didn't understand what the problem is. In our friends and family groups, the females are the ones who have deaths of despair. But I'm a stats girl, and if there are stats that show more men than women are experiencing this, I'll have to believe them.
This came up again between the two of us last week. We were out of town, I don't listen to the podcast when we're out of town, so this is me listening and catching up. Anyway, my husband's response to this male crisis is "a man does what needs doing" which means if there is something to mend or to fix, that man should fix it. He includes sewing a button on that has fallen off. I have a brother-in-law that is stunned that he does this, and my husband's surprised by that man's reaction, but I tried to explain to him that Title IX came in after that guy graduated high school. He wasn't exposed to home ec class with boys in it like we were. Anyway, my husband's a good cook, can sew, great carpenter, good with math, excellent problem solver, and just basically makes me feel helpless as I'm not good at anything.
I'm here for all of your ramblings and paraphrasing of Jesus.
I think about this a lot because...I know a lot of men who are struggling in their midlife. And I think you're scratching at a lot of it, and...this is my opinion that will get me canceled, so...it's been nice knowing everyone.
A commonality I notice among the white/straight/cis/raised middle class men I know who are struggling...is that their parents loved them very much, and didn't expect a lot of them when they were kids. "I'll make your lunch" "I'll make you're bed" (things like that) and I really worry that these men are a kind of canary in the coalmine for the generation of young people coming up behind them who (thanks to the blessings of our country's wealth and opportunity) have all had an opportunity to be overparented/helicopter parented/gentle parenting - whatever you want to call it. And...I worry that we're going to run into a real crisis of resiliency in a hot minute here when a bunch of people who've collectively been asked to do less suddenly don't have adults in their lives to fix their problems.
As I said, that is my most controversial opinion, and...it's been nice knowing everyone.
I actually think you're right on target. This is likely where higher ed peeps can confirm. I hear really crazy things from faculty members, like the one who had a student show up the last week of class to find out how to catch up before the end of the semester. (She had ignored a couple dozen emails, one of which alerted her that she had been withdrawn from the course because she never showed up during the first six weeks.)
But I also wonder, in the middle of this conversation again, is WHAT DO MEN WANT?
Did anyone find some of this --- the AI part esp --- depressing? I liked so much of what he said but when he got to AI and basically that the country will always hate each other/whomever is in charge, I got so depressed. I'm trying to have hope but maybe he's right.....
I heard Reid Hoffman interviewed during a taping of Colbert--which should be FUN--and I've never seen an audience deflate and get so depressed so quickly. I need to see whether they've aired it yet and if so, how they managed to edit it without Colbert's pointed disgust.
Norma, he's the Linked In guy, right? I get my Reids confused. If so, yes, they aired that episode a while back. I don't often pay that much attention when the guests come on, but I do remember that being a not very good interview.
lol I literally have no idea. But I was chatting with the women next to me before the show started, they were visiting, and when we were leaving the one next to me said "I'm going back to Alabama to tell everyone I know how BAD this is."
I found this article to be very interesting and thought provoking. Thank you for sharing. I have many thoughts and wonder what this looks like in 10+ years. As business leaders and board rooms are still mostly male but what happens when fewer and fewer men are in business.
Thank you for posting this. I went and read the whole article! I knew the history around the changing perceptions of certain professions as women became more represented. I did not think about how that might apply to education. I would like to see more conversations around this idea.
1) I need white men to own the fact that the entire system was built by them and for them. THEN we can discuss how politics is boring and "like a really lame filter for viewing everything in life." I'm happy to sit down and talk to this guy, since we apparently live in the same place.
2) I think all women want is for men to take care of their bullshit. Women, for generations, have looked up to men as examples of how to be EVERYTHING. Because that's all there was. Men and boys are not taught to look to women as examples of how to be ANYTHING. So they're out there flailing around looking for MEN to be examples of how to do life better and <shrug>. Hello, Joe Rogan and Andrew Tate.
3) I, too, take issue with cancel culture and how easy it is to offend everyone over everything. And we have stereotypes for a reason--there is a kernel of truth in each one. But there is a fine line between poking fun and being cruel. Inasmuch as we've lost the ability to communicate about many things with nuance, we've certainly lost it there. I'm a terrible person to have this conversation because I hate stand up comedy for the making fun, but I did thoroughly enjoy a performance earlier this week of Glengarry Glen Ross. We all contain multitudes and y'all all know I'm not a particularly sensitive person.
4) I want to discuss "the Barbie phenomenon" more. What is is?
5) Unrelated: The reason so many movies and TV shows are set pre-2005 is because the ability to carry around a communication device prevents many narratives from making sense. (They have to go technology-free or hyper-technology.) But people are so bad at using those devices to communicate, someone should just include in a narrative how bad actual people are at answer the phone, responding to texts, not knowing what to say so NEVER saying anything, etc.
6) If you order nachos, you are taking responsibility to make sure each chip has your preferred amount of toppings.
7) Best hot sauce: Jersey Bonfire Black Garlic
8) Aren't all churros a foot long? (I've only eaten churros from in the actual subway.)
I love how you phrased your point #2 and I think it’s helping me articulate one of my frustrations here…say you have two high school basketball players, one girl and one boy. The girl could be looking up to/inspired by Steph Curry, Diana Taurasi, Sue Bird, LeBron James, and Caitlin Clark. The boy is probably only following Steph and LeBron. What is so wrong with telling boys and men that men AND women are worth looking up to and being inspired by?
Or - I remember in second or third grade, when I decided I wanted to be an author, realizing I’ll have to write books about boys if I want both boys and girls to read my future books. Because Harry Potter by JK Rowling is a worldwide phenomenon, but Hermione Granger by Joann Rowling would’ve been a “girls book” and might have still be wildly popular and made into movies, but likely more along the lines of The Princess Diaries.
So sure, we need better examples of men and masculinity for boys to look up to, but I don’t think we should stop telling them to broaden their horizons and look to women as well.
I understand but believe getting out of thinking about gender as a zero sum game is important. When men are suffering, it harms our entire society. I think Richard Reeves has written eloquently about this: "We can be passionate about women’s rights and compassionate toward vulnerable boys and men...The gender gap in college degrees awarded is wider today than it was in the early 1970s, but in the opposite direction. The wages of most men are lower today than they were in 1979, while women’s wages have risen across the board. One in five fathers are not living with their children. Men account for almost three out of four “deaths of despair,” either from a suicide or an overdose...The fact that the highest rungs have male feet all over them is scant comfort for the men at the bottom. Men at the top are still flourishing, but men in general are not...The Left tells men, 'Be more like your sister.' The Right says, 'Be more like your father.' Neither invocation is helpful. What is needed is a positive vision of masculinity that is compatible with gender equality." More here: https://ofboysandmen.substack.com/p/why-boys-and-men ...I still think the overwhelming emphasis on politics in our society right now is exhausting and a sign of an unhealthy culture. Someone who *only* discusses politics constantly is a wonky bore. And I know because I talk about politics way too much lol. Last thought: A lof of this comes down to the prism of elections. The question I come back to is "Do you want to win or not?" Because that guides much of my thinking away from dunking and attacking and towards more compromise, persuasion, and empathy.
You're preaching to the choir. I've already listened to and read enough Richard Reeves for my whole lifetime. (likely this whole group has) But to me, more "compromise, persuasion, and empathy" leans toward putting the work back on women. Because that's how it's all set up.
Within a political context where one desires votes, it may indeed be necessary to do that work though. Not saying it’s fair, but just acknowledging that condemning men and expecting to receive their votes seems like a bad plan. Also, if another group was suffering in the ways Reeves describes, would you still argue that empathy for them requires too much work?
Hi Norma's and Matt. Norma I loved your response. I think I'm touchy on this extra right now bc my substack this week was about how my father was a bully and the things I endured are similar to what I see happening w Trump and the country. White men HAVE had all the privilege and (w few exceptions like my husband) most of them won't admit that. They are in a victim mode when foe years they told everyone not to play the victim. I'm terrified for my grandsons and know the left has in some cases gone overboard (my last college class three years ago featured a number of female students who said things about their male classmates that made my blood run cold in a way that used to only happen w things men said about women, so, yeah....that's an issue) AND also, men need to help each other out with this not lean on women (at least not alone). There are some religious service groups reaching out to younger men to get them involved in building proj cta in my area and I see that as far more helpful than joe Rogan et al.
Sincere question- if a guest had used another slur (like the “r” word was used here) to make a point, would that slur have been censored? I don’t think my objection here is ironic even within the context of the conversation- we are talking about populations of folks who have a uniquely limited ability to “own” the word or stand up against it. We’ve got to stop re-normalizing it.
To be clear, I wasn't calling anyone the r-word. My point was that there's a whole school of comedy bros that enjoy saying/hearing words like that and if you want to win their votes, it might be wise to consider why and examine their feelings around cancel culture and roast jokes instead of just dismissing them as hateful bigots.
In re: examining their feelings around cancel culture.... Yes and also, these men (in my life there are three) who bemoan cancel culture just push and push and push and have ZERO self reflection. Their anger at cancel culture comes down to this: I want to say what I want and no one better be offended and if you are, you're a pussy (their word). I feel like Dems are being asked to "understand" these men so we can win but these men have NO interest in understanding why anyone would be offended by their behavior/language. It seems ....I don't know..unequal at best.
I am super duper clear about it and didn’t say you were. Saying it continues to give it life- a little stigma against using it isn’t a bad thing. Just unclear if you would have also been okay using other slurs (saying the “n” word?) as examples. If not, I would suggest that’s an interesting point of reflection. I think we can all agree that it’s curious why this slur seems to be one that people (absolutely not you!) are so amped to have permission to say….
I bristled when I heard it and wished something was said about its use in follow-up. I don't think intent matters here, as much as how hurtful it can be to hear out loud. A Canadian newsanchor was fired from CBC a few years ago for using a racial slur in prep meetings- she was using it because that was what her future guest had said and she was preparing to question them about it
I think intention does matter and also don't think that person should have been fired from the description you gave (sounds similar to the Don McNeil situation at the NY TImes a while back). I'm in favor of more good faith interpretations and examining intention over blind purity tests.
Completely fair and good and hard question. I considered what to do here and own the decision to keep it. I thought about clipping this part of the discussion. I thought about bleeping it. I thought about adding a warning or an explanation. I considered the point he was making and the fact that he was not using the word as a slur but as an example. I considered that, while I've not seen all of his work, I've seen enough to believe that Matt would not intentionally hurt an entire group of people. I don't know how to face a dynamic that is pervasive without completely facing it. I wrestled with it and ultimately felt it was most honest to keep it as is. I don't know if that was the right call or if there is a right call. I absolutely know and respect that others would have made a different decision. I never want to hurt anyone with our work, and I'm sorry that my decision did.
❤️ thank you. I appreciate your reflectiveness and kindness - I’m always thinking about language, too (which words are mine and which aren’t) and muddling through myself.
Great episode. I’m trying to find true empathy for the “male crisis,” but it’s difficult, especially when “feminization” is being scapegoated. I believe both society and men need to take responsibility. If prioritizing empathy, watching a movie with a female lead, or refraining from posting crude jokes online is perceived as part of the downfall of masculinity, then that says more about the fragility of the system than anything else. The lack of romantic relationships gets a lot of attention, but maybe the real issue is that many men lack close, emotionally intimate relationships with friends and family. And instead of addressing that, the blame keeps shifting outward, often to women. That needs to stop. Honestly, I struggle with this conversation because I just don’t see it in real life. My male friends and family are thriving in education and jobs, most are solo homeowners at a young age - can't say that for any of my single female friends. Maybe because cancel culture never made its way to Boston?
YES YES! I would also sub “downfall of the patriarchy” vs “the downfall of masculinity.” I don’t think they SHOULD be tied to each other, or different sides of the same coin, but for too long they have been.
My husband paused the episode to say, "I don't know what this dude has experienced but I find it hard to believe any man white man, is really suffering...
And maybe they aren't finding wives because they are jerks. "
Blaming "feminization" for anything is "nails on a chalkboard" to my ears. I hear it as an attempt to sound sophisticated while denigrating women. It's the grown up eqiluivalent of the common insult from my childhood: you throw/run/cry "like a girl."
Intresting how we (as women) have heard these belittling comments by teachers, parents, fathers, husbands, but were able to not sink into crisis. I’m not trying to be flippant with this comment, but highlight how my brain is turned off when “feminization” is brought up in these discussions. It’s not a “we went through it so you should too mentality” but also why is women starting to make more money used as a statistic proving men are struggling? Is it because the norm that women should be making less is still with us? (And I’d argue this stat isn’t that relevant as the pay gap still exists). We all need a growth mindset and not be pitted against each other. I’d love to be told to act like my brother as he has so many great qualities I lack, and I hope he’d have the same respect and admiration towards me.
I think in some a ways when the conversation about male crisis comes up and the idea that “we” need to fix this issue, it can feel that that “we” is really women needing to do the fixing. I struggle with this also so much, because I feel that men need to be the ones pushing on this issue. To rely on women to fix this issue pushes us back into old stereotypes about the role of women, and I also think men might find it preachy. This is just how I feel sometimes that the conversation comes across.
I also struggle because I’m surrounded in a male-dominated field by highly educated males that seem to be in touch emotionally and don’t struggle with this. I know that’s out of the norm for most guys, so I try to not assume that my world reflects the larger world. But, it does feel in some spaces the argument that “no one is talking about this” falls flat. Richard Reeves’ book has done really well, and he has made a ton of appearances. His book pulls from other sources that have examined this idea as well. It seems that among women, this topic has been brought up a bit. But it’s not being discussed in the same ways in men’s spaces. (This is a broad generalization and may not true).
I was thinking about this in respect to some of the comments today. I think that "we" who listen to Pantsuit Politics have heard a lot about it, but to Beth's "I need to spend more time outside of politics" I am haunted by the spike in google searches on election day of "Did Joe Biden drop out of the Presidential Race?" and the way so many people have literally no idea that there is a DOGE and what they're doing. I feel like getting the word out to those people is challenging because they need this work so badly and aren't hearing about it. -m
That’s so true! The we in this space is informed and female-dominated, but I wish the universe real we could discuss more about moving the conversation to other in-person spaces/less informed spaces
Men can certainly be fragile, avoid taking responsibility, and find it difficult to be emotionally intimate. So what do we do about that? Yell at them? Condemn them? To what end? Also, the question I keep coming back to: Do you want to win elections or not? Because if the answer is yes, sometimes you need to meet men where they're at and empathize with them. If the left just dunks on them, they'll continue to lose – and at this stage, that might mean losing our entire democracy.
Glad to hear you're surrounded by thriving men. That said, I'm not sure that's the norm right now. For context, Richard Reeves has written eloquently about this: "We can be passionate about women’s rights and compassionate toward vulnerable boys and men...The gender gap in college degrees awarded is wider today than it was in the early 1970s, but in the opposite direction. The wages of most men are lower today than they were in 1979, while women’s wages have risen across the board. One in five fathers are not living with their children. Men account for almost three out of four deaths of despair, either from a suicide or an overdose...The fact that the highest rungs have male feet all over them is scant comfort for the men at the bottom. Men at the top are still flourishing, but men in general are not...The Left tells men, 'Be more like your sister.' The Right says, 'Be more like your father.' Neither invocation is helpful. What is needed is a positive vision of masculinity that is compatible with gender equality."
I don't think the left in general say be more like your sister - the far left does and it filters a little into schools. What I told my boys is they needed to do as much as their sisters, mother, wives. It's complicated but the manosphere has NOT made it better for men. It is like a locker room where they can be crude and complain about girls/women. Women are not going back (most) to barefoot pregnant and bringing the man a beer. Men need to get on board w that or they won't find a mate and it isn't women's fault (or the left). As for their jobs, we do have issues w educating boys and men and making schools more amenable to little boys and their energy. I have five grandsons ages 4 months to 9 years and much of my energy is spent educating their parents about how to find schools that are good for little boys. (Former education reporter here.) But what I hear when I listen to Rogan (only three times bc my God that man likes to hear himself talk), is not an exegesis on what's wrong w schools how to help men w education... I hear a dismissal of higher education as stupid and elite and an encouraging of men to pursue trades or manufacturing jobs that our country lost decades ago along w a "white men are the victims/DEI ruined all your chances." It is not helpful and if u ingest that daily you WILL become despairing . And...the Democrats suck at talking to anyone but the coastal elites.
This was a thought provoking episode. I will be mulling it over for a bit. Which, is why I keep coming back and will keep doing so. I like that these conversations stretch and challenge my thinking, especially when I have a really different perspective.
I would like to say that I'm so happy that the men in your life are doing well. And I really see another side of that coin in my life (maybe it's geographic and perhaps we could measure support for Donald Trump based on how well men are doing depending on where you live?)
I see so many men in my life who are in midlife and struggling with career and family. Multiple suicides and deaths of despair through drugs and addiction. I have an older neighbor who is struggling with his relationship with his daughter (and I can see his perspective that he tried so hard to give her everything she needed, and I can see her perspective that he's a curmudgeon who's hard to get along with, but she's totally cut him out of her life and that seems extreme). I have a relative who feels (and honestly is) totally shut out of an unvalued in his family life.
Maybe the jokes/movies are a way into the conversation, but that's not the real problem. I get (I GET) how hard it is to take it seriously when the backlash involves all these federal firings, RFK Jr at health and human services, whack-a-mole tariffs, and the end of USAID, and none of those things will fix the masculinity crisis. But I went on a Matt Ruby deep dive (just to be sure) before we had him on the show, and he was saying over and over about Democrats "we can't tell men they suck and then be surprised when they don't vote for us." And that part is true.
We're about to send out this week's newsletter. I can't wait for you to read it because I can see how Beth (Sarah's not here this week, but I know she's doing this work too) is bringing together so much of what we've been talking about on the show and with our guests kind of coming together in a positive vision for what we could compost and grow from the rubble here. I'd love to live in Beth's America that really is set up for everyone to flourish.
Men are so definitely struggling, but I am not sure why. This is an anecdotal sample of less than 10, but every person I know who has died by ODing has been male, and I don't think I am unusual in that.
I don’t think it’s a male problem. It’s a culture problem. Our culture is training our youth to self-medicate the discomforts of life away and simultaneous making it nearly impossible to achieve basic comforts and a sense of stability. So, the indulgence into drugs and alcohol (and gambling, and technology…) is all that is keeping them tethered to life and also so so far away from actually living it.
Thanks for entrusting me with this conversation. I appreciate that you deep dived. Chimed in elsewhere on the comments with what I hope is helpful context. I agree that conversations like these are a step in the right direction.
Thank you for sharing this, it’s clear there are very real struggles they’re facing. I’m not dismissing that at all.
But I still don’t think its beneficial to frame “feminization” as a reason. That framing feels like a distraction, from what, I don't know but would like to explore.I can understand the despair and frustration a lot of men are feeling but blaming women or “liberal culture” doesn’t get us anywhere. That’s why I resist this narrative that masculinity is under attack by progress or inclusion. However, I completely agree the democratic party needs a re-brand to be a place that honors everyone’s dignity; where men can excel and be proud and where women don’t have to shrink for others to feel whole.
I’ve been marinating on what you wrote for a bit and I think what I land on is that it’s less about needing to feel sorry for men because they’re struggling and more about needing to move towards conversations that focus on co-creating spaces where we are actually, honestly talking to each other.
There’s a huge part of me that feels like we (women) have gotten so fed up with patriarchy as a social structure that we’ve decided we don’t need men at all. When the reality is we work best as a species together, just not in a way where one gender is dominating or suppressing the other(s).
And I’m with you, throwing up my hands and saying, sure, go make fun of whoever you want to doesn’t feel like the solution, but dismissing real symptom of a bigger problem doesn’t feel like a good one either.
I agree. To put it bluntly, we just want men who aren’t a-holes. And there are plenty who are great guys, secure in their manhood, and respectful of women as equals.
Here's a lovely example of men being together because they know they need to be together: (gift link) https://www.nytimes.com/2025/04/12/style/brooklyn-stroll-club-fathers-new-york.html?unlocked_article_code=1._U4.1DyX.M9b3gJwNZ2S1&smid=url-share
“Moms have been holding it down for so long and are so great at building community,” Mr. Gonzales said. “I didn’t have a lot of dad friends in New York, and I really wanted to connect with people who were going through a similar experience,” he added.
I have a great secure husband who is basically your all American guy next door dude. He has more close male friends than I have female friends. They are connected and close, and great dads. (His best friend is basically Yukon Cornelius in MAGA form, and that bothers me a bit, but not Hubs.)
In general, when women need to get together to feel whole and connected, we do: girls nights, book clubs, shopping, kids’ sports, etc. it’s all socially acceptable. There are times in our lives when it’s more feasible than others, but by and large I feel like women TRY.
Here’s what I’m ingesting from the male side: I’ve asked Rob if he wants to get together with his friends without me and the girls, just dudes, no family. SHRUG. You guys want to golf? Go to happy hour? Sports league? MEH. It seems like the message is: if men hang out with too many women, that’s too feminized, too “gay” (sorry, I hate that too). But men can’t just hang out with other men. That’s ALSO “too gay.”
My dad had church and the Lion’s Club. I don’t know what this generation of men has for themselves. But it’s not my fault if they sit on the couch watching Joe Rogan bitch about it instead of taking action. I’m really kind of DONE hearing about it.
Huh. I would describe my husband the same way. (And most of his friends as well. Including a few MAGA Yukons.) Around here (western mid-west) the guys are more likely to hang out on the regular in their own group than the women are. Every social group I touch (and there are many thanks to my kids, my work, and my own social interests), the guys have no problem scheduling time to do *whatever* (golf, concert, some sports thing, just hang at someone's house, play on a rec league, etc) while the women rarely if ever get together without kids or without spouses. And when they do they often talk about the "penalty" for a night out - cleaning up the disaster at home or spending all day with their kids the next day so the spouse can "recover".
Read the post I just made, it has a gift link you will be interested in.
gay = feminine (or not masculine) so you're on track, I think
First, I found it interesting to encounter this conversation again but with just Beth’s point of view. Sometimes I feel like Sarah can passionately overwhelm the overall tone, knowing that this is a topic that directly touches her personal life.
I heard a few different things from Matt: there is a masculinity crisis; alongside that, people aren’t able to handle being uncomfortable like in the past; and, we are living in a time of great prosperity and it’s the best time to be alive.
How I interpreted that was that a lot of what is going wrong with men today involves the enfranchisement of women. Men not approaching women any more isn’t just because of dating apps, but (from someone who dated within the past 5 years) also because women don’t need to have a relationship to live in a certain way. Meaning, women aren’t obligated to respond positively to those social overtures. And how is it the best time to be alive, but the men are collectively suffering?
It feels like the MAGA argument that what is wanted is a style of living that is no longer supported by the way society has evolved. We can’t return to a place where women are socially second class citizens in order for men to feel OK again. I don’t really believe that’s what this conversation is driving towards but sometimes that what I hear. It feels like when it’s said that men aren’t doing well, what is meant is men aren’t doing better than women. OK, and??????
It's interesting to read the comments on this episode because I did not plan or or perceive it in real time to be primarily about the gender conflict/crisis of men and boys. Anytime this topic comes up, I feel a strain in myself that the comments illuminate.
On one hand:
I have two daughters, and I worry about them being respected in the world (broadly--will they be physically respected, will their civic rights be respected, will they be respected in workplaces, in churches, etc). I also worked as a young professional in a profession that was dominated not just by men but by a kind of Mad Men hangover. And we have extensively covered what's happening to women all over the country since the Dobbs decision. So I hear and feel everyone who's saying a version of "excuse me? Women have not dethroned men and become the oppressors."
On the other hand:
I'm pretty sure Sarah taught me the expression "just because the person next to you has cancer doesn't mean your foot isn't broken." I don't want to be competitive about the relative suffering, historically or presently, of men and women. I see that many, many men of all ages and at all levels of socioeconomic status are not flourishing. I see an education system and jobs landscape that are out of sync with each other in ways that will likely compound this problem over the next generation. And I observe that my own reaction to this problem vacillates between "emergency! You, Beth, should figure out how to fix this!" and "seriously? If there's a problem, you made it" -- two reactions that are equally condescending and useless in their own ways AND that I would never direct toward the complaints of any other categorical group.
I appreciate the push, always, to work through this strain in myself. I realize in every conversation about boys and men that probably the best posture I can take is just to listen and care and believe that there is a real challenge here and consider what that means.
I tremendously appreciate Matt's willingness to discuss this more the comments. I respect Matt's approach very much.
And I appreciate, always, all of you listening and thinking with us and expressing your views so openly.
I like to think that some of this is generational--or I did until recent events began to prove me wrong. I have three brothers and nearly a dozen nephews and the conversation about "like a girl" being pejorative has been ongoing FOR DECADES. It's exhausting. But it also seems to be getting better as the nephews get younger. I'd love to blame the phones for this (because I do blame the phones for almost everything), but clearly these attitudes were not only always here, but possibly worse in the past. And among the men that I have close relationships with, who I spend time with, love and trust, etc. I've only managed to convince two to seek any kind of professional help for problems. They talk to me instead of their friends, but they won't talk to a counselor or join a support group--in person or online, free or paid. I'm flattered that they trust me, but I can't provide the kind of help they need sometimes.
And look, we just happen to be at a crossroads right now, where rights won over decades are being chipped away and as a woman (and a lesbian), I DON'T SEE MEN SPEAKING UP. (I made a post about this in the FB group and not one man even reacted or responded to it.) The men I mention up there ^ not a word. They think women shouldn't panic. They've never been subject to a law that makes them property of the state. So it can't be a surprise that when it's implied that women should help solve a problem that we didn't create, that we actually rose above, it looks like we are once again being put back in a role that the default population finds the most comfortable.
I also appreciate Matt's willingness to discuss more the comments. We can be a tough audience. But I'd also rather be having this conversation in real life. ;)
I agree that we don’t want to view any of these issues as a zero-sum game. The world would be much healthier with ALL people flourishing as themselves! However, using these statistics to prove that men aren’t doing well still looks at the problem in that zero-sum way. It’s safe to say we will never be perfectly 50-50, so what is our goal in these areas? If men are "losing" it’s a crisis, but what is it called if women are losing?
Men are more likely to engage in physical aggression. Men are more likely to use drugs and/or alcohol to cope with problems. This plays a role in both increased incarceration and increased rates of death via suicide. Women are more likely to attempt, while men are more likely to die via suicide. This seems to be at least partially due to the different “methods” men vs women typically use in their attempts. None of this is new. (Hi, my mom worked in mental health and our whole family attended/helped a lot with her community efforts) Of course, we want the overall rates of suicides for all people to be lower, but the contrast in incarceration and suicide rates will likely always exist. I believe that is just part of the differences between men and women.
I was an Athletic Training major and worked as a college AT during grad school (a conservative leaning school), so spent a significant amount of time with young men. I have even said working with the football team was like having 60 brothers. I witnessed quite a bit, more than I would have just existing as a girl. Some good, some not so good. Locker room talk? Been there. (Also much tamer than anything DJT claimed as such) Training room talk? Yup. Cat-calling girls walking on their college campus from a charter bus with closed windows so they clearly won’t hear you? Also yes. Standing a couple feet away from the spot on the wall a guy decided to punch, two times in one morning? Mmhmm. So, I am not naive to the male world. I will say that a lot of the young men I knew in my college and grad school years have continued to grow into even better people, which is encouraging.
The common thread among men I appreciate spending time with is that they are comfortable with themselves. They don't need to bully people or "punch down" to show off or prove their "manliness." My best guy friend from college played football as a defensive end. He was formidable on the field, and probably intimidating if you didn't know him, but also the goofiest kid and a major nerd. I sometimes think about how thankful I am to have gotten to be his friend, because he is someone who is committed to good. Knowing that he exists helps me to convince myself that there are other people, especially men, who are committed to good in the world.
I think it comes down to valuing and respecting women, and men! If you don't value or respect women, then of course you would shy away from anything deemed "feminine." If you don't "like" or respect women, then what they tell you will not matter, even if they are trying to help you. If you seem to hate women or only view them as objects, then they probably will not want to date you. And then men get lonelier and angrier. And women want to stay even further away from men. How do we change this vicious cycle? I believe that parenting plays a huge role in this (and so many other societal issues). But then the question becomes, how do we get "good" parents who value both men and women? At some point in the cycle, someone has to *want* to be better. Not perfect, just better. Those of us who know better should do better. And we need to keep our eyes and ears open for others we can help and influence along the way.
Greetings from your local clueless man.
This episode left me with encountered feelings. First, I think like most commentators here, certain word shocked me. Specially as the dad of a girl in the spectrum and borderline IQ. I think saying “r-word” as he wrote above would have conveyed the meaning without the, imho, the unnecessary shock. Second, I am fine with meeting where they are at. But to paraphrase and misuse Jesus’s words, what good will it do to a party to win an election if they lose their soul? There has to be a way to do both. Third, I heard few words repeated many times in different combinations. Fourth, on the very positive side I agree that tribalism is a huge problem. The acceptance wholesale of everything a group stands for just to belong is problematic. Also agree that normal life (as if I knew what that is) is a better barometer than focus groups and consultants on what’s really going on. Finally, I agree that being outside politics is good. However, only politics is narrowly defined as partisan politics. Partisan politics is about the “activities, actions, and policies used to gain and hold power in a government or to influence the government”. I am more Aristotelian with a broad view of politics as the “art of living together in community” It’s about citizenship, responsibility, ethics, and the conditions for human dignity. Fifth, I have never understood what is the “man problem”. If you can, please, enlighten me. Or point me to a good resource that helped you.
A. The problem is feminization? First of all, here we go again blaming women. I’ll be honest, I wish I was half the woman my wife is. I’d be at least three times a better person than I am right now.
B. Where are men (especially white, bro type men) prevented from participating, having a seat at the table, and normally at the head of the table, who is systematically excluding them?
C. I don’t deny that there are records of deaths of despair disproportionately among certain groups.
D. But why are men self selecting out of college or trade education? Why the incel phenomenon? I don’t know. I am mystified by this.
E. I am not a man’s man. More Belle than Gaston in my preferences, still a cisgender straight married to a woman guy. Just not good at expectorating, haven’t been in a fisticuffs since 4th grade, never had owned, used, and held just once, a gun. I am not into sports, neither participating nor watching. I don’t hunt. I don’t like things with bone like wings, ribs, that kind of stuff. I love the great indoors, books, digital coloring, and cheese. I barely know where the gas goes in my car, don’t care for cars, bikes or boats, and don’t know how to fix things at home. Am I the problem? Have I’ve been feminized? Should I be more of a macho?
F. I wasn’t born to money, and didn’t made any. I am a couple of paychecks away from homelessness.
G. So there’s my ignorance in display. I don’t understand the “man problem”.
Here ends this week edition of long winded ramblings with X.
I think my husband is right there with you, although he has a minor amount more experience with guns. He used to hunt as a kid but gave it up happily when he started dating me and realized I had an aversion to firearms. I had him listen to one of the male crisis episodes a few months ago. He also didn't understand what the problem is. In our friends and family groups, the females are the ones who have deaths of despair. But I'm a stats girl, and if there are stats that show more men than women are experiencing this, I'll have to believe them.
This came up again between the two of us last week. We were out of town, I don't listen to the podcast when we're out of town, so this is me listening and catching up. Anyway, my husband's response to this male crisis is "a man does what needs doing" which means if there is something to mend or to fix, that man should fix it. He includes sewing a button on that has fallen off. I have a brother-in-law that is stunned that he does this, and my husband's surprised by that man's reaction, but I tried to explain to him that Title IX came in after that guy graduated high school. He wasn't exposed to home ec class with boys in it like we were. Anyway, my husband's a good cook, can sew, great carpenter, good with math, excellent problem solver, and just basically makes me feel helpless as I'm not good at anything.
I'm here for all of your ramblings and paraphrasing of Jesus.
I think about this a lot because...I know a lot of men who are struggling in their midlife. And I think you're scratching at a lot of it, and...this is my opinion that will get me canceled, so...it's been nice knowing everyone.
A commonality I notice among the white/straight/cis/raised middle class men I know who are struggling...is that their parents loved them very much, and didn't expect a lot of them when they were kids. "I'll make your lunch" "I'll make you're bed" (things like that) and I really worry that these men are a kind of canary in the coalmine for the generation of young people coming up behind them who (thanks to the blessings of our country's wealth and opportunity) have all had an opportunity to be overparented/helicopter parented/gentle parenting - whatever you want to call it. And...I worry that we're going to run into a real crisis of resiliency in a hot minute here when a bunch of people who've collectively been asked to do less suddenly don't have adults in their lives to fix their problems.
As I said, that is my most controversial opinion, and...it's been nice knowing everyone.
I actually think you're right on target. This is likely where higher ed peeps can confirm. I hear really crazy things from faculty members, like the one who had a student show up the last week of class to find out how to catch up before the end of the semester. (She had ignored a couple dozen emails, one of which alerted her that she had been withdrawn from the course because she never showed up during the first six weeks.)
But I also wonder, in the middle of this conversation again, is WHAT DO MEN WANT?
I think you've just proved once again that many things can be true at once.
Did anyone find some of this --- the AI part esp --- depressing? I liked so much of what he said but when he got to AI and basically that the country will always hate each other/whomever is in charge, I got so depressed. I'm trying to have hope but maybe he's right.....
I heard Reid Hoffman interviewed during a taping of Colbert--which should be FUN--and I've never seen an audience deflate and get so depressed so quickly. I need to see whether they've aired it yet and if so, how they managed to edit it without Colbert's pointed disgust.
Norma, he's the Linked In guy, right? I get my Reids confused. If so, yes, they aired that episode a while back. I don't often pay that much attention when the guests come on, but I do remember that being a not very good interview.
I'm not exactly sure because I had not heard of him, but probably. I will have to find that interview and see how painfully it turned out. 😁
Well this is depressing. What can we do? (You can see I have decided that perhaps you are the person with the answers. :-) )
lol I literally have no idea. But I was chatting with the women next to me before the show started, they were visiting, and when we were leaving the one next to me said "I'm going back to Alabama to tell everyone I know how BAD this is."
Many thoughts, but I will start with this little read that I found quite interesting. https://open.substack.com/pub/celestemdavis/p/why-boys-dont-go-to-college?r=ziyo2&utm_medium=ios
This is good. A piece of the puzzle for sure.
I found this article to be very interesting and thought provoking. Thank you for sharing. I have many thoughts and wonder what this looks like in 10+ years. As business leaders and board rooms are still mostly male but what happens when fewer and fewer men are in business.
Thank you for posting this. I went and read the whole article! I knew the history around the changing perceptions of certain professions as women became more represented. I did not think about how that might apply to education. I would like to see more conversations around this idea.
What an episode for Sarah to miss- Richard Reeves name drop, the tech is the problem, and psychedelics.
1) I need white men to own the fact that the entire system was built by them and for them. THEN we can discuss how politics is boring and "like a really lame filter for viewing everything in life." I'm happy to sit down and talk to this guy, since we apparently live in the same place.
2) I think all women want is for men to take care of their bullshit. Women, for generations, have looked up to men as examples of how to be EVERYTHING. Because that's all there was. Men and boys are not taught to look to women as examples of how to be ANYTHING. So they're out there flailing around looking for MEN to be examples of how to do life better and <shrug>. Hello, Joe Rogan and Andrew Tate.
3) I, too, take issue with cancel culture and how easy it is to offend everyone over everything. And we have stereotypes for a reason--there is a kernel of truth in each one. But there is a fine line between poking fun and being cruel. Inasmuch as we've lost the ability to communicate about many things with nuance, we've certainly lost it there. I'm a terrible person to have this conversation because I hate stand up comedy for the making fun, but I did thoroughly enjoy a performance earlier this week of Glengarry Glen Ross. We all contain multitudes and y'all all know I'm not a particularly sensitive person.
4) I want to discuss "the Barbie phenomenon" more. What is is?
5) Unrelated: The reason so many movies and TV shows are set pre-2005 is because the ability to carry around a communication device prevents many narratives from making sense. (They have to go technology-free or hyper-technology.) But people are so bad at using those devices to communicate, someone should just include in a narrative how bad actual people are at answer the phone, responding to texts, not knowing what to say so NEVER saying anything, etc.
6) If you order nachos, you are taking responsibility to make sure each chip has your preferred amount of toppings.
7) Best hot sauce: Jersey Bonfire Black Garlic
8) Aren't all churros a foot long? (I've only eaten churros from in the actual subway.)
I love how you phrased your point #2 and I think it’s helping me articulate one of my frustrations here…say you have two high school basketball players, one girl and one boy. The girl could be looking up to/inspired by Steph Curry, Diana Taurasi, Sue Bird, LeBron James, and Caitlin Clark. The boy is probably only following Steph and LeBron. What is so wrong with telling boys and men that men AND women are worth looking up to and being inspired by?
Or - I remember in second or third grade, when I decided I wanted to be an author, realizing I’ll have to write books about boys if I want both boys and girls to read my future books. Because Harry Potter by JK Rowling is a worldwide phenomenon, but Hermione Granger by Joann Rowling would’ve been a “girls book” and might have still be wildly popular and made into movies, but likely more along the lines of The Princess Diaries.
So sure, we need better examples of men and masculinity for boys to look up to, but I don’t think we should stop telling them to broaden their horizons and look to women as well.
I understand but believe getting out of thinking about gender as a zero sum game is important. When men are suffering, it harms our entire society. I think Richard Reeves has written eloquently about this: "We can be passionate about women’s rights and compassionate toward vulnerable boys and men...The gender gap in college degrees awarded is wider today than it was in the early 1970s, but in the opposite direction. The wages of most men are lower today than they were in 1979, while women’s wages have risen across the board. One in five fathers are not living with their children. Men account for almost three out of four “deaths of despair,” either from a suicide or an overdose...The fact that the highest rungs have male feet all over them is scant comfort for the men at the bottom. Men at the top are still flourishing, but men in general are not...The Left tells men, 'Be more like your sister.' The Right says, 'Be more like your father.' Neither invocation is helpful. What is needed is a positive vision of masculinity that is compatible with gender equality." More here: https://ofboysandmen.substack.com/p/why-boys-and-men ...I still think the overwhelming emphasis on politics in our society right now is exhausting and a sign of an unhealthy culture. Someone who *only* discusses politics constantly is a wonky bore. And I know because I talk about politics way too much lol. Last thought: A lof of this comes down to the prism of elections. The question I come back to is "Do you want to win or not?" Because that guides much of my thinking away from dunking and attacking and towards more compromise, persuasion, and empathy.
You're preaching to the choir. I've already listened to and read enough Richard Reeves for my whole lifetime. (likely this whole group has) But to me, more "compromise, persuasion, and empathy" leans toward putting the work back on women. Because that's how it's all set up.
Within a political context where one desires votes, it may indeed be necessary to do that work though. Not saying it’s fair, but just acknowledging that condemning men and expecting to receive their votes seems like a bad plan. Also, if another group was suffering in the ways Reeves describes, would you still argue that empathy for them requires too much work?
Hi Norma's and Matt. Norma I loved your response. I think I'm touchy on this extra right now bc my substack this week was about how my father was a bully and the things I endured are similar to what I see happening w Trump and the country. White men HAVE had all the privilege and (w few exceptions like my husband) most of them won't admit that. They are in a victim mode when foe years they told everyone not to play the victim. I'm terrified for my grandsons and know the left has in some cases gone overboard (my last college class three years ago featured a number of female students who said things about their male classmates that made my blood run cold in a way that used to only happen w things men said about women, so, yeah....that's an issue) AND also, men need to help each other out with this not lean on women (at least not alone). There are some religious service groups reaching out to younger men to get them involved in building proj cta in my area and I see that as far more helpful than joe Rogan et al.
Sincere question- if a guest had used another slur (like the “r” word was used here) to make a point, would that slur have been censored? I don’t think my objection here is ironic even within the context of the conversation- we are talking about populations of folks who have a uniquely limited ability to “own” the word or stand up against it. We’ve got to stop re-normalizing it.
To be clear, I wasn't calling anyone the r-word. My point was that there's a whole school of comedy bros that enjoy saying/hearing words like that and if you want to win their votes, it might be wise to consider why and examine their feelings around cancel culture and roast jokes instead of just dismissing them as hateful bigots.
In re: examining their feelings around cancel culture.... Yes and also, these men (in my life there are three) who bemoan cancel culture just push and push and push and have ZERO self reflection. Their anger at cancel culture comes down to this: I want to say what I want and no one better be offended and if you are, you're a pussy (their word). I feel like Dems are being asked to "understand" these men so we can win but these men have NO interest in understanding why anyone would be offended by their behavior/language. It seems ....I don't know..unequal at best.
I am super duper clear about it and didn’t say you were. Saying it continues to give it life- a little stigma against using it isn’t a bad thing. Just unclear if you would have also been okay using other slurs (saying the “n” word?) as examples. If not, I would suggest that’s an interesting point of reflection. I think we can all agree that it’s curious why this slur seems to be one that people (absolutely not you!) are so amped to have permission to say….
I believe his intent was to give an example. He wasn’t calling anyone by that word.
I fully understood the intent.
I bristled when I heard it and wished something was said about its use in follow-up. I don't think intent matters here, as much as how hurtful it can be to hear out loud. A Canadian newsanchor was fired from CBC a few years ago for using a racial slur in prep meetings- she was using it because that was what her future guest had said and she was preparing to question them about it
I think intention does matter and also don't think that person should have been fired from the description you gave (sounds similar to the Don McNeil situation at the NY TImes a while back). I'm in favor of more good faith interpretations and examining intention over blind purity tests.
Completely fair and good and hard question. I considered what to do here and own the decision to keep it. I thought about clipping this part of the discussion. I thought about bleeping it. I thought about adding a warning or an explanation. I considered the point he was making and the fact that he was not using the word as a slur but as an example. I considered that, while I've not seen all of his work, I've seen enough to believe that Matt would not intentionally hurt an entire group of people. I don't know how to face a dynamic that is pervasive without completely facing it. I wrestled with it and ultimately felt it was most honest to keep it as is. I don't know if that was the right call or if there is a right call. I absolutely know and respect that others would have made a different decision. I never want to hurt anyone with our work, and I'm sorry that my decision did.
❤️ thank you. I appreciate your reflectiveness and kindness - I’m always thinking about language, too (which words are mine and which aren’t) and muddling through myself.
That line “we’ve lost our ability to handle discomfort” really hits.
Oh my. Thinking a lot about this too and what it asks of me.
I’m with him on the nachos! No one likes to get to the bottom layer and have no toppings.
Amen!
The trick is to use a bigger dish and spread the nachos out in just one or two layers instead of piling it in a bowl.
Yes, we do ours on a plate and separate each. Multiple plates if needed but no overlapping!
I used to live near a pub that served nachos on a baking sheet pan. They were awesome.
This is how I make nachos at home, which I almost never do, but they are the best kind.
Great episode. I’m trying to find true empathy for the “male crisis,” but it’s difficult, especially when “feminization” is being scapegoated. I believe both society and men need to take responsibility. If prioritizing empathy, watching a movie with a female lead, or refraining from posting crude jokes online is perceived as part of the downfall of masculinity, then that says more about the fragility of the system than anything else. The lack of romantic relationships gets a lot of attention, but maybe the real issue is that many men lack close, emotionally intimate relationships with friends and family. And instead of addressing that, the blame keeps shifting outward, often to women. That needs to stop. Honestly, I struggle with this conversation because I just don’t see it in real life. My male friends and family are thriving in education and jobs, most are solo homeowners at a young age - can't say that for any of my single female friends. Maybe because cancel culture never made its way to Boston?
YES YES! I would also sub “downfall of the patriarchy” vs “the downfall of masculinity.” I don’t think they SHOULD be tied to each other, or different sides of the same coin, but for too long they have been.
100% Melanie! Should not be considered the same thing at all.
My husband paused the episode to say, "I don't know what this dude has experienced but I find it hard to believe any man white man, is really suffering...
And maybe they aren't finding wives because they are jerks. "
Believe me, they are. Visit any urban public library when it opens, and you will see a line of them waiting to get in.
Blaming "feminization" for anything is "nails on a chalkboard" to my ears. I hear it as an attempt to sound sophisticated while denigrating women. It's the grown up eqiluivalent of the common insult from my childhood: you throw/run/cry "like a girl."
Intresting how we (as women) have heard these belittling comments by teachers, parents, fathers, husbands, but were able to not sink into crisis. I’m not trying to be flippant with this comment, but highlight how my brain is turned off when “feminization” is brought up in these discussions. It’s not a “we went through it so you should too mentality” but also why is women starting to make more money used as a statistic proving men are struggling? Is it because the norm that women should be making less is still with us? (And I’d argue this stat isn’t that relevant as the pay gap still exists). We all need a growth mindset and not be pitted against each other. I’d love to be told to act like my brother as he has so many great qualities I lack, and I hope he’d have the same respect and admiration towards me.
💯. Thank you for articulating this.
I think in some a ways when the conversation about male crisis comes up and the idea that “we” need to fix this issue, it can feel that that “we” is really women needing to do the fixing. I struggle with this also so much, because I feel that men need to be the ones pushing on this issue. To rely on women to fix this issue pushes us back into old stereotypes about the role of women, and I also think men might find it preachy. This is just how I feel sometimes that the conversation comes across.
I also struggle because I’m surrounded in a male-dominated field by highly educated males that seem to be in touch emotionally and don’t struggle with this. I know that’s out of the norm for most guys, so I try to not assume that my world reflects the larger world. But, it does feel in some spaces the argument that “no one is talking about this” falls flat. Richard Reeves’ book has done really well, and he has made a ton of appearances. His book pulls from other sources that have examined this idea as well. It seems that among women, this topic has been brought up a bit. But it’s not being discussed in the same ways in men’s spaces. (This is a broad generalization and may not true).
I was thinking about this in respect to some of the comments today. I think that "we" who listen to Pantsuit Politics have heard a lot about it, but to Beth's "I need to spend more time outside of politics" I am haunted by the spike in google searches on election day of "Did Joe Biden drop out of the Presidential Race?" and the way so many people have literally no idea that there is a DOGE and what they're doing. I feel like getting the word out to those people is challenging because they need this work so badly and aren't hearing about it. -m
That’s so true! The we in this space is informed and female-dominated, but I wish the universe real we could discuss more about moving the conversation to other in-person spaces/less informed spaces
Men can certainly be fragile, avoid taking responsibility, and find it difficult to be emotionally intimate. So what do we do about that? Yell at them? Condemn them? To what end? Also, the question I keep coming back to: Do you want to win elections or not? Because if the answer is yes, sometimes you need to meet men where they're at and empathize with them. If the left just dunks on them, they'll continue to lose – and at this stage, that might mean losing our entire democracy.
Glad to hear you're surrounded by thriving men. That said, I'm not sure that's the norm right now. For context, Richard Reeves has written eloquently about this: "We can be passionate about women’s rights and compassionate toward vulnerable boys and men...The gender gap in college degrees awarded is wider today than it was in the early 1970s, but in the opposite direction. The wages of most men are lower today than they were in 1979, while women’s wages have risen across the board. One in five fathers are not living with their children. Men account for almost three out of four deaths of despair, either from a suicide or an overdose...The fact that the highest rungs have male feet all over them is scant comfort for the men at the bottom. Men at the top are still flourishing, but men in general are not...The Left tells men, 'Be more like your sister.' The Right says, 'Be more like your father.' Neither invocation is helpful. What is needed is a positive vision of masculinity that is compatible with gender equality."
More here: https://ofboysandmen.substack.com/p/why-boys-and-men .
I don't think the left in general say be more like your sister - the far left does and it filters a little into schools. What I told my boys is they needed to do as much as their sisters, mother, wives. It's complicated but the manosphere has NOT made it better for men. It is like a locker room where they can be crude and complain about girls/women. Women are not going back (most) to barefoot pregnant and bringing the man a beer. Men need to get on board w that or they won't find a mate and it isn't women's fault (or the left). As for their jobs, we do have issues w educating boys and men and making schools more amenable to little boys and their energy. I have five grandsons ages 4 months to 9 years and much of my energy is spent educating their parents about how to find schools that are good for little boys. (Former education reporter here.) But what I hear when I listen to Rogan (only three times bc my God that man likes to hear himself talk), is not an exegesis on what's wrong w schools how to help men w education... I hear a dismissal of higher education as stupid and elite and an encouraging of men to pursue trades or manufacturing jobs that our country lost decades ago along w a "white men are the victims/DEI ruined all your chances." It is not helpful and if u ingest that daily you WILL become despairing . And...the Democrats suck at talking to anyone but the coastal elites.
This was a thought provoking episode. I will be mulling it over for a bit. Which, is why I keep coming back and will keep doing so. I like that these conversations stretch and challenge my thinking, especially when I have a really different perspective.
I would like to say that I'm so happy that the men in your life are doing well. And I really see another side of that coin in my life (maybe it's geographic and perhaps we could measure support for Donald Trump based on how well men are doing depending on where you live?)
I see so many men in my life who are in midlife and struggling with career and family. Multiple suicides and deaths of despair through drugs and addiction. I have an older neighbor who is struggling with his relationship with his daughter (and I can see his perspective that he tried so hard to give her everything she needed, and I can see her perspective that he's a curmudgeon who's hard to get along with, but she's totally cut him out of her life and that seems extreme). I have a relative who feels (and honestly is) totally shut out of an unvalued in his family life.
Maybe the jokes/movies are a way into the conversation, but that's not the real problem. I get (I GET) how hard it is to take it seriously when the backlash involves all these federal firings, RFK Jr at health and human services, whack-a-mole tariffs, and the end of USAID, and none of those things will fix the masculinity crisis. But I went on a Matt Ruby deep dive (just to be sure) before we had him on the show, and he was saying over and over about Democrats "we can't tell men they suck and then be surprised when they don't vote for us." And that part is true.
We're about to send out this week's newsletter. I can't wait for you to read it because I can see how Beth (Sarah's not here this week, but I know she's doing this work too) is bringing together so much of what we've been talking about on the show and with our guests kind of coming together in a positive vision for what we could compost and grow from the rubble here. I'd love to live in Beth's America that really is set up for everyone to flourish.
Love this Maggie and love that Matt is also jumping in to talk. Really appreciate that
Men are so definitely struggling, but I am not sure why. This is an anecdotal sample of less than 10, but every person I know who has died by ODing has been male, and I don't think I am unusual in that.
I don’t think it’s a male problem. It’s a culture problem. Our culture is training our youth to self-medicate the discomforts of life away and simultaneous making it nearly impossible to achieve basic comforts and a sense of stability. So, the indulgence into drugs and alcohol (and gambling, and technology…) is all that is keeping them tethered to life and also so so far away from actually living it.
Thanks for entrusting me with this conversation. I appreciate that you deep dived. Chimed in elsewhere on the comments with what I hope is helpful context. I agree that conversations like these are a step in the right direction.
Part of the reason was that I really enjoyed your writing and comedy and wanted to keep going. You're doing great work!
Thank you for sharing this, it’s clear there are very real struggles they’re facing. I’m not dismissing that at all.
But I still don’t think its beneficial to frame “feminization” as a reason. That framing feels like a distraction, from what, I don't know but would like to explore.I can understand the despair and frustration a lot of men are feeling but blaming women or “liberal culture” doesn’t get us anywhere. That’s why I resist this narrative that masculinity is under attack by progress or inclusion. However, I completely agree the democratic party needs a re-brand to be a place that honors everyone’s dignity; where men can excel and be proud and where women don’t have to shrink for others to feel whole.
I’ve been marinating on what you wrote for a bit and I think what I land on is that it’s less about needing to feel sorry for men because they’re struggling and more about needing to move towards conversations that focus on co-creating spaces where we are actually, honestly talking to each other.
There’s a huge part of me that feels like we (women) have gotten so fed up with patriarchy as a social structure that we’ve decided we don’t need men at all. When the reality is we work best as a species together, just not in a way where one gender is dominating or suppressing the other(s).
And I’m with you, throwing up my hands and saying, sure, go make fun of whoever you want to doesn’t feel like the solution, but dismissing real symptom of a bigger problem doesn’t feel like a good one either.
Love this reply. I agree and more of this attitude (from all sides) feels like the solution.
I agree. To put it bluntly, we just want men who aren’t a-holes. And there are plenty who are great guys, secure in their manhood, and respectful of women as equals.