Life is Full of Surprises (with Jen Hatmaker)

Our 1000th episode is a special one

Today, we're celebrating 1,000 episodes of Pantsuit Politics with our friend Jen Hatmaker. Jen Hatmaker is a writer, podcaster, speaker, and long-time friend of our show. She's with us today to reflect on our journey to this podcasting milestone and discuss her new memoir, Awake, coming out in September.

Whether you've been listening to Pantsuit Politics for 1 episode or 1,000, we're delighted to have you join us today for an episode that feels like a big mom hug.

Topics Discussed

• 1000 Episodes of Podcasting

• AWAKE by Jen Hatmaker

Want more Pantsuit Politics? Subscribe to ensure you never miss an episode and get access to our premium shows and community.

Episode Resources

• Reimagining Citizenship by Pantsuit Politics

• Summer Film Club

• Pantsuit Politics 10th Anniversary Live Show

Jen Hatmaker

• Awake by Jen Hatmaker (coming September 2025)

• For the Love Podcast

• Jen Hatmaker (Instagram)

Other Resources

• Reaching Across the Aisle: Beto O’Rourke and Pantsuit Politics (For the Love)

• Making Sense of the 2024 Election: With Pantsuit Politics’ Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers (For the Love)

• The WHCA Dinner, a #MeToo Moment, and Faith and Politics with Jen Hatmaker (Pantsuit Politics)

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

Our show is listener-supported. The community of paid subscribers here on Substack makes everything we do possible. Special thanks to our Executive Producers, some of whose names you hear at the end of each show. To join our community of supporters, become a paid subscriber here on Substack.

To search past episodes of the main show or our premium content, check out our content archive.

This podcast and every episode of it are wholly owned by Pantsuit Politics LLC and are protected by US and international copyright, trademark, and other intellectual property laws. We hope you'll listen to it, love it, and share it with other people, but not with large language models or machines and not for commercial purposes. Thanks for keeping it nuanced with us.

Episode Transcript

Alise [00:00:00] Hey, I'm Alise, the managing director of Pantsuit Politics. I started listening to the show after the 2016 election and then joined the team for episode 264 in early 2018. I've been full time ever since episode 561, which was over four years ago now, so crazy. As I was trying to explain my job to my three year old son a few weeks ago, and admittedly, not doing a great job, he somehow both thinks that I am a member of Congress and make his Frozen Story podcast, which, great options, but got to work on clarifying exactly what that means for him. But I was reminded again how I never could have dreamed up this career path as a child. I can barely explain it to my child now. I certainly couldn't have imagined it back then. And yet I love my job. It's this wonderful amalgamation of my skill set and my interests, there's always something new to learn about the world and about myself.

[00:00:54] This job and just being a listener of this show for so many years helped me know myself better, to better identify the issues that I care most deeply about, to clarify where I stand on those issues, and to continually work on what it means to live out my values in community with other people. I am very proud to say that I have not outright yelled at anyone over politics since I started listening to the show. Now, not to say I haven't had very difficult political conversations- we all have over the last few years. But I have gotten a lot better at leading with curiosity and articulating my thoughts well in those conversations. Now, still very much working on managing my news anxiety, but aren't we all? I'm so grateful to the team here, Sarah, Beth, Maggie, the whole crew at Studio D. You all are wonderful coworkers and friends. A thousand episodes in, and we are doing the best work we ever have. Here's to many more years together, making something I believe is truly unique and valuable in our media landscape.

Sarah [00:02:00] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:02:02] This is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:02:03] You're listening to a very special episode of Pantsuit Politics. Today is our 1,000th episode, Beth!

Beth [00:02:19] A thousand episodes!

Sarah [00:02:21] I don't even know what that means. Listen, I wouldn't even know it was the 1000th episode. How do we know? Let me tell you how. Because Alise dug through the archives across multiple different platforms we've used over 10 years to figure it out. If this was just a side hustle like it started, Beth and I wouldn't have gotten to1,000 episodes and we certainly wouldn't have had Alise to figure out that it was 1,000 episodes.

Beth [00:02:46] I say to people all the time that they can't miss me anymore because there are thousands of hours of my voice on their phones, but it's actually true. That is a fact now. And if you add in our premium shows, we are in the ballpark of 3,500 episodes. Plus the weekly newsletters we write. Plus our retired show, The Nuanced Life. And all the bonuses. It's been a lot over 10 years. And we keep talking about that because we're really proud of it. It's hard to stick around for 10 years in this industry. And we are so grateful that you all have made that possible; whether today is your first episode or you've been here for all 1,000 of them, thank you.

Sarah [00:03:24] So to celebrate we have invited back the one, the only Jen Hatmaker. She is an author, a podcaster. She leads her own incredible community. And back in 2018, we went on her show to help her process the Texas Senate race between Beto O'Rourke and Ted Cruz. She also came on our show that year to talk about coming out as an evangelical leader, as an ally to the LGBTQ+ community. We have known so many of you-- we'll talk about that with Jen. Have found us through Jen. So it felt right to have her back to celebrate with us because we feel like we wouldn't have been here without her support.

Beth [00:04:03] We're also going to share some special messages from our team and partners who've been with us over the years and helped make our work happen. Again, all of this because of you. There are not big enough words to describe what we felt seeing you sign up to financially support the show over the last two weeks and over the 10 years. Between the 1,000th episode, the 10-years, the pouring in of support, it's emotional. It's emotional around here.

Sarah [00:04:28] It is.

Beth [00:04:29] We knew you'd show up for us, but you always surprise us in how generously you do that. And we hope that you feel honored in that support, especially by the 30 days of Re-imagining Citizenship that we have been working on to try to refill all of our tanks going into the summer.

Sarah [00:04:48] That's why I'm so emotional. Recording those meditations has made me very, very emotional.

Beth [00:04:52] Always a good sign.

Sarah [00:04:54] Yes, definitely a very good sign. It's not too late to join. The first meditation goes out on Thursday. So if you really want to have these short reflections, they will show up in your inbox. You can read them. You can put them in your podcast player and listen to them that way. But I really think it's going to be such a beautiful journey on the road to July 4th, a very complicated, intense July 4, to do these 30 days of meditations with us. So you can sign up and become a premium subscriber at Substack to join before the first meditation goes out on Thursday. We cannot wait for all of you to listen and we can't wait to hear from you in the comments as we all reflect. Most of these meditations have questions, little prompts. We can't wait to hear from all of you on all of them. And now, without further ado, our 1,000th episode in a conversation with Jen Hatmaker.

Maggie [00:05:51] Hi Sarah and Beth, this is Maggie here to congratulate you on your 1,000th episode over 10 years of Pantsuit Politics Podcasting. We could be here all day talking about how great you are, which I would actually love to do sometime. I love the way that you guys have taught me so much about listening, about tolerating discomfort, about that serenity prayer to change the things I can, let go of the things I can't, and the wisdom to know the difference. I am so grateful for this community of Pantsuit Politics that you guys have cultivated and the ways that I personally have just learned and expanded and grown more gracious and understanding of my fellow citizens. So much about the politics of the last 10 years I think could have, in an alternate universe, made me a really hard and cynical person. And I am so grateful to Pantsuit Politics for helping me stay open-hearted and engaged in the face of what might otherwise be a real path to disengagement and giving up. So I hope that you guys keep talking, keep having the conversations, keep thinking hard thoughts, having hard conversations, and doing it with all of us and leading the way into the next 10 years. And the next 1,000 episodes, I can't wait to hear them. I can't wait to keep having these conversations, not just with you, but with everybody who listens to this podcast. So keep it nuanced.

Sarah [00:07:48] Jen Hatmaker, welcome back to Pantsuit Politics.

Jen Hatmaker [00:07:54] Just happy to see you besties.

Sarah [00:07:59] Listen, 10 years. Beth, here's a question for you in Jen's presence. If we had a nickel for every person that says to us over the past 10 years, "I found you from Jen Hatmaker," how rich would we be?

Beth [00:08:13] It would help with the ad-pocalypse, that's for sure.

Jen Hatmaker [00:08:17] Oh my gosh, good job, Beth.

Beth [00:08:19] It would close some gaps.

Sarah [00:08:21] It would close some gaps!

Jen Hatmaker [00:08:22] That little committed timing right there was brilliant.

Sarah [00:08:24] It would close some gaps. That's exactly right. Everyone, in the bathroom, in greet lines, doesn't matter, it doesn't where we are or what we're talking about. People are like, "I found you through Jen Hatmaker." We wouldn't be here at 10 years without you. That's just the brutal truth.

Jen Hatmaker [00:08:41] I am your delighted evangelist, and I plan to stay that way. And you guys, by the way, a thousand shows, what are we doing here? What in the whole world? Y'all, that is so many. I was doing the mental math this morning. I was just parsing it out, like, trying to figure out how many I've done, and it's not that many. That's so many episodes.

Sarah [00:09:04] Because when did you start your podcast?

Jen Hatmaker [00:09:07] I guess it would have been like, I'm going to say, 2017.

Sarah [00:09:15] That can't be right. We started in 2015 and you helped us. That can't be right.

Jen Hatmaker [00:09:18] That can't be.

Beth [00:09:20] Well, you were doing other things before podcasting.

Jen Hatmaker [00:09:23] Yes. I would probably have you in my other places on all my socials. So it was probably 2017. God, what is my malfunction? But I have not done as many shows as y'all, and you deserve a parade. You do. You deserve a parade because 1,000 shows means nobody can have any concept of how much technology you have managed over these years. That alone, I want to give you an award. I want to give you a prize.

Sarah [00:09:53] We started on Skype.

Jen Hatmaker [00:09:54] Oh, my God, Skype, RIP.

Beth [00:09:58] And Evernote. We were managing our show prep in Evernotes.

Jen Hatmaker [00:10:01] Oh my gosh, this is amazing information. You just pulled these words out of such a time.

Sarah [00:10:09] Well, I just want to speak to your loveliness because what you did for us. We came on your show I think once and then we came back when Beto was running and you're like I want you to do what you do. Just help us process it. And there's just not a lot of people who will say, hey, come on my platform, but do what do. People want to interview you. People want to shove you through a filter and you were like, no, no. Just come here. And you let us do what we do in front of your audience. And it just was the biggest gift.

Jen Hatmaker [00:10:39] Well, nobody does what you do in the way that you do it. Like, the combination of your personalities, your histories, your approach to life is just magic. It's like you just caught lightning in a bottle. And it's not just that. It's not that you're delightful to listen to and know and hear from, but you're good at what you're do. Every single time I've ever gotten a phone call with you guys or whatever it is that we do here-- I guess it's not a phone, this is called a podcast. I always just feel like I'm talking to you on the phone, but I always feel every single time, zero exceptions, a little better. Like, okay. Maybe we are not doomed-- I mean, we are, but not to the extent that I thought we were. Maybe there is hope. Maybe there is a different way for me to process this information in front of me. Maybe there's another way to navigate this culture. So, anyway, you're good at that. You're so good at and you remain good at that. When did y'all start? What year again?

Sarah [00:11:55] 2015.

Jen Hatmaker [00:11:55] A lot has changed since then.

Sarah [00:11:56] A little bit. Few things.

Jen Hatmaker [00:11:59] And so you guys could have tanked. I mean, you could have tanked in your optimism, in your if neutrality is the right word or your way to assess a situation just out of the rafters, but into this reasonable space. Nobody would blame you if you guys were just like in the gutter, but somehow you've stayed out of it. Brava. I don't know how you've done it. I applaud your restraint and your maturity.

Beth [00:12:29] You have been so generous with us always and this was no exception. So thank you so much I was thinking about when you said nobody does what you do I thought, "I think that's true about you too, Jen Hatmaker."

Sarah [00:12:39] I thought the same thing.

Beth [00:12:41] And also navigating a whole lot of change in the period of time that you have been in front of people publicly doing what you do. And so I would really love to hear you describe what you that nobody else does, because that's been a hard sticking point for us. How do you tell somebody what this thing is that I'm offering you and what it's been like to ride the many, many changes that you've had to navigate?

Jen Hatmaker [00:13:09] I wish my girlfriends who live here were here because they would burst out laughing at that question because you've never seen a more awkward person in your lifetime than this person. When we're out somewhere and for whatever reason somebody's like, so what is it that you do? And I'm like, ah, bleep, bleep, bloop. They always just look at me like what's she going to say this time? I feel like I occupy a tidy territory. And it is problematic for so many people. I cannot tell you how many books I've written that are about to come out and the people are like, "We don't know where to place it in the bookstore." I'm like, I understand. I understand your dilemma. Because you're like a little bit of like outrageous standup comedy. And then you write 5,000 words on white supremacy. I'm, like, right, do your best. Do your best.

Sarah [00:14:04] You got to be who you're going to be!

Jen Hatmaker [00:14:05] Yeah, exactly.

Sarah [00:14:06] You got to just be where you're at, man.

Jen Hatmaker [00:14:09] I know. It would be easier for me if I was more like the one thing. From the big high level, the big boulders in the river, writing would be my biggest boulder. If I had to pick one, if I had to say everything else has to go, you could pick one thing that you do the most, the best, I would pick writing as my favorite thing. Everything else has come around it. It's so weird to be a rider, you guys, because the world has been like, "Well, can you come speak?" I'm like, "Do you think I can? I don't know. Did someone tell you that I can?" And so I've built capacity, I think, around my work in the world, but I don't know how to pick my ethos, though which has, to your point, changed. Geez. I came up through the Christian evangelical white lady circuit. So, I was just a shiny girl over there. I knew how to work in that. That was my native tongue. And I knew all those rules and I knew my limitations. I knew I could be funny, but just to here. And that community was called edgy, but it wasn't. But it was for them. So I knew how to get to my edgy space, which made people feel edgy themselves for liking me.

Sarah [00:15:41] But they weren't.

Jen Hatmaker [00:15:46] If you're paying attention at all, a lot of our paradigms eventually get challenged, the ones that we were handed when we were kids and that we grew up in and some of those systems. And that was certainly true for me, true for y'all too. And so as I changed as a human being, everything I did in the world changed as well. And so that horse led that cart for sure.

Sarah [00:16:16] Well, Beth very early said our North Star is the podcast. That's it. We will do speaking, we'll do books. We'll do X, Y, Z, but the North Star's the podcast. So I think identifying my North Star is writing, that's it. That what my thing is. But watching your community and watching you navigate those changes, well, first of all, there's a Venn diagram of the changes politically and the changes in the evangelical community.

Jen Hatmaker [00:16:43] Truly.

Sarah [00:16:47] I think it's almost like you need a North Star once you have a community, which you do, we do. It's like you almost need a separate North Star for that space. Because we're not leading people because it's our career. The community aspect is something different, something special. And I think so much of what you do there is show up as yourself but give permission to other people to show up their selves. I still remember when you came on our show and you said, "Of course you felt pushed out of the church. You had a choice. You could be a leader and a female or you could stay here. And you took your choice. Of course, you did." And it was like instantaneous like I'm not going to worry about it. I'm not going think about this anymore. Jen told me that of course you didn't do anything wrong. And I would be in these groups where people would be really wrapped up in their church pain, and I would just be like Jen fixed it. I don't have to think about it. I'm over it. You said those words to me and I stopped stressing about it anymore. There's just something about when someone goes, yeah, I see it. I experienced it. You didn't do anything wrong.

Jen Hatmaker [00:18:04] That's right.

Sarah [00:18:05] You have to have that North Star for the community, too.

Jen Hatmaker [00:18:09] You're so right that the communities that we have built-- by the way, I love that story. Thank you for reminding me of that awesome moment.

Sarah [00:18:18] Remember, and that's when the listener cross-stitched Jesus doesn't need the permission of the patriarchy. Which was your words that are on my wall

Jen Hatmaker [00:18:24] God, that is the best memory. That's right. Great memory. All three of we built something out of our work and out of our gifts and out of our instincts and convictions. But then it became a community, which is its own entity. And I've said this a million times, my community is almost entirely women. Is yours?

Sarah [00:18:53] No. You know what, we do have a fair amount of men.

Jen Hatmaker [00:18:55] You've got men. Yeah, your content is a little bit more bipartisan.

Sarah [00:19:00] The best of men, might I add. Just the best.

Jen Hatmaker [00:19:02] You've got a few good men, as we say in the Jen Hatmaker ecosystem. We are almost all women in business, and we always say, and a few good men. But you put that many women, particularly, but even just like-minded folks in one spot, and then the sum becomes greater than its parts. They take on their own deal. Like, they start connecting with each other, and whatever it is that you are leading with up top trickles down into the community, and you create this culture and then it is just so extraordinary at that point. Because it supersedes anything that we are saying or doing. It starts pulling in all these other stories and lives and families and individuals. And then it's like, wow, what an amalgamation of an incredible group of people, which, by the way, is one of my leading comforts in this moment in time, that we still have these communities like yours and like mine that are brilliant and good and thoughtful and hopeful and engaged. And I'm like, okay, here we are. Here we are. Look how many of us there are. There's so many people. And that thought runs through my head about once a day, that if these communities that we lead are true, then we are full of hope.

Beth [00:20:34] So our experience is that the core of that community comes along through all of the changes and then pieces fall away too because I'm not conservative enough or because of how we do or don't talk about Gaza. Like there are these moments where a lot shifts. I wonder what your experience is like. I'm sure you have people who have been with you since edgy evangelical through the present, but I wonder that has been like for you.

Jen Hatmaker [00:21:04] Totally, you guys.

Sarah [00:21:06] Any experience with changing expectations?

Jen Hatmaker [00:21:08] Yeah. Where to start, to be honest? So the big answer is yes. As mentioned, edgy evangelical. And so those limits were constricting for me. And anybody who had eyes and ears could have watched me in 2013, 2014, 2015, starting to like hunch. I kept getting in trouble with my community because I kept being like, but is that true? But is that right? And that was not appreciated, you guys. That behavior was not rewarded. So I was already on the ropes in that space. And then I don't know if you remember 2016?

Sarah [00:22:08] Vaguely.

Jen Hatmaker [00:22:09] What a year. I had been embedded in the very early-- and on my end, when I say this word, it applies to Jen Hatmaker-- very sloppy work of anti-racism back then. And I was young in it, I was green in it and new to it, so it was just such a mess. But nonetheless, it was on Front Street and that was not a welcome conversation in my community. So I was already starting to hemorrhage the people. Then I added a more insidious layer, which was that was the year I just couldn't help it, I was anti-Trump. So during the campaign, I just could help it. Like that's who I am. I have never not told you what I'm convicted about in my lifetime. So I'm anti-trump. Boy, that was not appreciated. Hemorrhage, hemorrhage, hemorrhage. And then for me, the nail in the coffin, which really torpedoed my community, was just before the election, a couple weeks before the election, when I came out in that interview and said I am pro LGBTQIA. I would perform a same-sex wedding. I would drink champagne. That was the end. That was the day that my books got pulled off shelves and my community just disappeared. It was half dead.

Sarah [00:23:35] You got canceled!

Jen Hatmaker [00:23:36] I got canceled. I don't even know if we were saying that word back then, but that's exactly what happened.

Sarah [00:23:41] But that's what it was!

Jen Hatmaker [00:23:44] Yeah. So for me that was the real defining like before and after in terms of community change. And so I didn't know if I'd rebuild. I had no idea. I didn't really know where I belonged. I hadn't yet progressed beyond that subculture. So I'm like, where do I go? And who will be there? So I thought, well, maybe that's the end of it. And if it is, then I'm good at other things. Hell. I'm smart. I could work at the library. I always wanted to be a librarian, I did. And so I'm like, okay, if I have to pick my career or my integrity, I'm picking my integrity and that's that. But then imagine my delight when you get outside of that Venn diagram and you go, "Look at all these people. What are you guys doing out here?"

Sarah [00:24:42] You've been here the whole time?

Jen Hatmaker [00:24:44] Oh, my God, can I sit down? And so I rebuilt. I rebuilt starting in 2017 and rebuilt the community in my dreams, and that is no lie. I'm not being hyperbolic. Everything I'd ever wanted before that moment I got to experience after, which was this new community, and some of them stayed. Tons of us are asking the same questions at the same time. I'm not new. I'm not the only one doing this. And then new folks and they were curious and they were not fear-based and shame-based and they're asking really good and smart questions and holding nuance, you guys. Nuance, can you imagine? And my online community has been the joy of my life ever since. That is no joke. Absolutely no joke. Which turned out to be handy.

Sarah [00:25:42] Yes, I have thought experiment. I know where you're going with that. Okay, so Jen has a new book, guys. It's called Awake, comes out in September. Listen to the sound of my voice. Order it now. Clear your calendar. It's the 25th, is that correct?

Jen Hatmaker [00:26:00] September 23rd.

Sarah [00:26:03] Mark it off. You're not going to do anything else once the book hits your mailbox. I read it for 30 minutes just standing up in my closet because I couldn't be bothered to sit down guys. You're not going to do anything else. So just order it now. Clear your calendar. It's so stupid good because Jen went through it personally, and she has shared that journey with us. My thought experiment, as you were talking, because there's just so many mirrors between what happened to you professionally then and what happened to you personally when your marriage fell apart after 26 years. What if the order had been reversed?

Jen Hatmaker [00:26:39] Great question. That is such a good question. Let me put my thought on that for a second. If I had lost my marriage while I was still an edgy evangelical, I think it would have been devastating. Yeah. I'm guessing at this. This is a projection. And maybe that community would have surprised me. It's not as if people do not get divorced inside religious structures. It happens every day.

Sarah [00:27:11] Remember Amy and Vince, remember?

Jen Hatmaker [00:27:13] Do I remember Amy and Vince? I remember. Well, she went through it. So did Sandy and Patty went through it! So would it have evolved up to more like our generation? I don't know. But I am so thankful I don't have to know this. I am so thankful that was not my experience, that I had a community of just generous, deeply compassionate women by the time 2020 hit.

Sarah [00:27:52] Well, and I was just thinking you knew you could rebuild.

Jen Hatmaker [00:27:55] You are so right.

Sarah [00:27:56] You had done it.

Jen Hatmaker [00:27:57] God, that's so true. That's true. At this point, I've lost my biggest gold stars. I lost my early career, which now I know you can reinvent. At the time, I thought, well, I have blown up the thing that I've dreamed of building. And then I lost my marriage. Those are my two gold stars, and so to have lost those in a four-year time span?

Sarah [00:28:25] Four years is not long.

Jen Hatmaker [00:28:26] No, it really isn't. I'd really just kind of recovered from the first one when the second one was an atomic bomb.

Sarah [00:28:36] In the pandemic.

Jen Hatmaker [00:28:37] In the pandemic, that's right. So it was July, 2020, which was just such a great time for us all. We were all doing great that summer. So, yeah, and that's what Awake is. I had to live that story before I could ever write about it. I had to get way on the other side of it and write. I know this is a trope, but I needed to write from the scar, not an open wound, so that I could make sure that I was... The way that I labored over am I being fair? Am I being honest? You cannot know how many hours of sleep that robbed me of at night. And so I had to be far enough away from it or covered and healed enough to be able to look with clear eyes on my own part of the story, even my own memories. And so that's why it took so long to write it. It's five years ago, but rewriting it was like reliving it. I'll tell you that.

Beth [00:29:39] I think that comes through because it is exceptionally concise. Every chapter feels like you made a million decisions. And not in a heavy-handed way at all. There's a point where you say, "I wanted this to be funnier." It is so funny. It's so, so funny. You did it. It's just so funny but you can feel the thought that went into whose story is this? How is this going to affect every other person who exists not just as a character in the way that I see this? That laborer is there. It is evident.

Jen Hatmaker [00:30:21] Thank you for saying that, Beth. I'm so close to it at this point. I'm not objective, I don't think anymore. But I really appreciate that response. Because you're right, this is my family. I know that this story will affect a lot of women. I just know it. I know it because I also lived it in a public way and I already saw. Nothing has ever galvanized my community more. Not any leadership I've ever offered, not any smart thing I've ever said, not even some big stand I ever took. Nothing has brought my community together more than my public suffering and recovery. And so that's when I realized this is a place of safety and love. This was such a soft place to land. And I've never ever been more grateful for how many women at that moment said to me, "First of all, same. I'm with you, I've been there, I'm there now." And then how many of them held their little lanterns up for me and said, "Keep going, I am ahead of you, you're going to make it." And I did not think I was going to make it. I am telling you, there was a minute I just thought, I cannot do this.

Sarah [00:31:41] I spent several months stressing your blood pressure. We saw you in person in Texas. I don't even know when it was, who knows? Somewhere between 2023. God only knows when it is. And I was like, I could see your body. It was kind of like blinking red. And I found it very stressful. And I believe six months later, I was like, "Hi, I'm over here still stressing about your blood pressure, how's it going?"

Jen Hatmaker [00:32:04] You are so right. I was blinking red. My body was blinking red. I wrote about that a little bit. Our bodies will tell us when we're not doing well. And I was getting some real clear messages.

Sarah [00:32:19] Quietly at first and then louder.

Jen Hatmaker [00:32:21] And then louder. When you end up in the E.R., you kind of go, all right. All right, let's have a conversation. So it was not a tidy story, for sure. I said this last week somewhere, my story is not special. And I think that is what makes it important. I love memoirs. I do. I love them. I read them. I gobble them down. It's one of my favorite genres. Sometimes I read a memoir that is somebody's sensational story. It's so outrageous.

Sarah [00:32:59] It's like Educated.

Jen Hatmaker [00:33:02] Great example. We almost can't connect with any of it. It is so outside of our own experience, but fascinating. So you read it almost like fiction. It almost reads like a novel.

Sarah [00:33:13] I stayed up till 3 a.m. reading that book.

Jen Hatmaker [00:33:15] I gobbled that book down. And I love those stories, too. But this is one of those stories that readers will or could or can read and go, oh God, me too. Like, this is a common loss and rebuilding, and mine is centered around the loss of a marriage. But honestly, maybe it's the loss of a career. Maybe it's even the loss of a role. I've had friends whose kids have launched, they moved into empty nesting and capsized. It was too much change, too much loss. I don't know who I am now. The reinvention seemed too impossible. And so I think there's a handful of threads here that are really familiar to women kind of here in the middle of life. And so, I hope that women don't read it and go, "I can't imagine." I hope that they read it and go, "I can imagine." And that is a bit of a lantern in the same way that women held them up for me.

Sarah [00:34:23] I wouldn't have begrudged you because there's a part of me that's like I just want to say full Anne Lamott who says if people didn't want you to write their stories they should have behaved better.

Jen Hatmaker [00:34:34] I love that.

Sarah [00:34:35] You know what I mean? I kind of want to just be like, no, whatever.

Jen Hatmaker [00:34:39] Where's the tea?

Sarah [00:34:39] You did it. You survived it. That's your story. If you'd done that, I would have been like yeah. And I would've defended you. But at the same time, I'm reading it and I think it's just next level to be able to say, "What was my role here?" Megan Francis just wrote (speaking of empty nest) this great new book called The Last Parenting Book You'll Ever Read.

Jen Hatmaker [00:35:08] Very beautiful title.

Sarah [00:35:10] Great, right? There's this whole chapter on, like, this is my regrets as a parent. This is what I never got to do that I wanted to. This is the call I made, I think it was the wrong one. And there is just an enormous amount of freedom in that.

Jen Hatmaker [00:35:23] There is.

Sarah [00:35:24] Instead of just tap dancing, no, no, everything I've done has worked out great. And it led me on the path I am and I don't have to think about it. And I'm here now and I'm great. And you could just feel the hustle.

Jen Hatmaker [00:35:34] A hundred percent.

Sarah [00:35:35] And just to say, no, I made some calls that hurt people. And this was my role in this. And it is a heavy lift, but it is burden you're lifting. It's an anchor you're taking off someone else's neck as well, if you give them permission to do that.

Jen Hatmaker [00:35:52] Thank you for saying that. I think had I written it two years earlier, that would not have been the case. There's nothing that feels better than spilling the tea and blaming. Feels pretty good. And it felt good at the beginning, too. And I think I said at the intro, you would forgive me if I did that. And I kept most, if not almost all, of the salacious details out of the text. They're not in there. And they don't serve the story. Now they would be juicy and people would love them. And they would land me interviews. That's not really the crux of the story. It just really isn't. It is mine to tell in some way, but discretion prohibited me from wanting to reach for that tool, from that hammer. Also, I got five kids, that's their living dad on this earth. And this is their story, too. It is not just mine to tell. And so the lens in which I wrote Awake, I put a sticky note on my computer just to remind myself of constantly, it was just right over here on the edge, was what is your story? So I just kept going, what is mine? What is mine? What is mine? What's mine to tell? What's mind to own? What was my personal response? What did I learn? And that helped me sift some of the details that people would have probably preferred that I include. But, for me, that would have taken me out of integrity.

Dylan [00:37:43] Hey, Dylan here. Beth and Sarah just wanted to say a huge congratulations from all of us at Studio D on episode 1,000. I was 23 when I started working with you all and Pantsuit Politics was really the first big project I'd ever worked, on and you both just immediately made me feel a part of the team. So thank you for that. Beth, I still remember when we were walking down the streets of Cincinnati and you asked me what I want to do with my career. And we were just talking and you really encouraged me to kind of build something of my own and go find some other clients as well as working with Pantsuit. And I can honestly say I would not be doing what I'm doing now without Pantsuit Politics. You both have been excellent examples to me personally of being a loving spouse, a patient parent and a thoughtful team leader. And just thank you for being terrific partners. I know Kat and I have had hard moments just hearing something in the news and our first thought is just what do Beth and Sarah have to say about this? So thank you for getting us through those hard moments and sharing those great moments with all of us. So congratulations again, and here's to another 1,000 episodes.

Caroline [00:39:12] Quick shout out to my clients and friends, Sarah and Beth, on the 10th anniversary of their wonderful show Pantsuit Politics. It has been an honor of my career to see their show grow and flourish. And I'm so proud of all the work that they do. And cheers baby. Ten more years. Can't get enough.

Beth [00:39:31] What's really masterful, I think, in your writing is that I read this book as less about loss and more as a love letter to building all kinds of community around yourself.

Jen Hatmaker [00:39:41] I love that.

Beth [00:39:44] This read like if you haven't experienced loss yet, you know what you need to be doing? You need to pouring yourself into your friends. You need be making sure that you aren't so consumed with parenting that you neglect all the adults who are going to be there for you through whatever. Because whatever will come. Whatever your version of whatever is, it will come. And do not tell yourself you're too busy to have relationships with people because that's what carries you through.

Jen Hatmaker [00:40:10] That just gave me goosebumps. I have goosebumps.

Beth [00:40:13] Well, you wrote it, Jen. You did it.

Jen Hatmaker [00:40:17] Okay, girls, listen, you know this is my very first time to be in a conversation talking about this book. I'm have practiced. I do not know what I'm saying.

Sarah [00:40:27] I like it. I'm here for it.

Jen Hatmaker [00:40:29] I'm still like, "Oh, my God, is that what you read? I'm so delighted to hear that." I did dedicate it to my people. The whole book is dedicated to my people because they saw me through and they're the great loves of my life. And so, you are right that the love of my family and my friends was my salvation. And if that is what people take away from this story, if that's a through line, I'm delighted to hear it.

Sarah [00:41:01] But it's a line through all your work. That's how you build a community like that.

Jen Hatmaker [00:41:05] You're right, it is. I remember saying I had lost my marriage before I said any-- and it was another, I'm going to say, maybe four or five months before I said anything online. I didn't how to talk about it. But everything was wrong and everybody knew it. Like I had gone dark, I'd gone offline for however long. And everybody's like, ugh. Are you terminal?

Sarah [00:41:29] It was like Kim Kardashian got robbed. That's what it was like. And it was very stressful for me both times.

Jen Hatmaker [00:41:34] Everyone was like, "We don't know what's wrong. Are you in the hospital?" I just didn't know how to talk about it, but I do remember saying-- I don't have the skillset to be one way and show another. I do not have that. I am just the same all the time and everywhere. And so I remember saying online before anybody knew that I was getting divorced, that build your integrity, build your capacity, build your community, build the good stuff inside of your heart and soul in the good cheer of the daylight. Because when that night time comes, whatever you built in the day will see you all the way through to the dawn. And so, if everything is coming up roses for you right now, yay, I'm thrilled about it. I remember those seasons. Make sure to your point that you are building and building and building everything good in you and around you. You will need it. Maybe your life doesn't fall apart like mine does, but something else will happen because it will. If it hasn't yet, just live longer.

Sarah [00:42:50] I call it the chaos lottery. Your ticket gets pulled.

Jen Hatmaker [00:42:53] Every time. I don't know anybody for whom it hasn't.

Beth [00:42:56] There is an incredible gift in the specificity of how your people showed up for you in this book, too. So maybe your ticket isn't being pulled right now, but someone's is who you care about. And you give these really concrete ways; these are the things people did and how they mattered to me. I sent a text message to one of my guy friends. I was like, very long story short, but I'm reading this book and I want you to know that if I had been betrayed in every way imaginable, I believe you would sit in my driveway in your car for me if I needed you to. And he was like, “I would do that.”

Jen Hatmaker [00:43:28] That gave me just a little tear.

Beth [00:43:30] He was like, I'd probably try to come sit in your living room, but yes, I would be there. And, to me, that's what the awake of the book felt like. Just like Awake we just really need other people to get in our business. That's what people did for you. They got in your business. And it was so great to read about.

Jen Hatmaker [00:43:45] Oh my god, did they get in my business? They got in my bed. Sandwiched me in my own bed so I did not have to sleep alone. When I started writing this, I had an idea for the way that I wanted to tell it. And I've never written in this way ever, not in content and not in format. It's not in chapters. It's in little shorts, little tiny vignettes, all in memory, for the most part, all told in real time. So a lot of it's like, for example, I would start one being like, "I'm in sixth grade."

Sarah [00:44:27] I love those. Those are my favorite ones. The flashbacks.

Jen Hatmaker [00:44:29] Well, I've spent a career as a writer and communicator largely handing my community a prescription. I would write a book and I would write a very long form chapter on one idea and be like, all right, everybody look, I've already done our thinking for us. I've processed this on our behalf. Here is our conclusion. Boom. You don't need to work on it. I've nailed it. Just assimilate what I've done, this labor for us, and now you know how to think, feel, and do. And this book is zero prescription. It is only description. And so I've never trusted my readers like this to be like, I'm not going to tell you what to think about any of it. I'm just going to tell what happened. Here's a memory, period, turn the page. There's no commentary on it. I don't look back in hindsight with clarity and maturity. I really just say, "These are the bricks that built this house. And maybe it wasn't so surprising that the house fell down." And so the reader will do with it what they will. This is why I'm gnawing my fingernails off. I haven't told you how to think about it. You're going to have to do that. And you're going to figure out what does this mean to me? What do I take from this? And so that feels weird.

Sarah [00:46:00] Here's the thing, though, as you're describing this to me. Because in my mind I see the cancelation, right? I see it happening here. And I see all these hardcore lessons learned that you could learn from a cancelation. And because they were through the filter of career, you were probably doing exactly what you've described. This is not just descriptive, this is proscriptive. While you were in this space where you felt like things were falling apart and you were tap dancing. So maybe the ultimate lesson is that's how we integrate everything, is we do describe, we don't prescribe. Because the describing it's a barrier of a kind. You know what I mean?

Jen Hatmaker [00:46:46] A hundred percent.

Sarah [00:46:46] It's just that little bit removal. It's not a lot sometimes, and if you're really good a writer like you are, it feels different. But it's just that step away that gives you that protection, that gives you I'm still telling a story about this so I can tell you what I want to tell you and not prescribing.

Jen Hatmaker [00:47:03] Totally. And I can do that. I have the skill set as a writer, and I'm an Enneagram three, who prefers a very shiny exterior. I know that about myself. I'm at least self-aware enough to know that I prefer- well, there's a sentence in Awake that says, "I wanted the story of my marriage, not my actual marriage." So, the impulse to polish it up just a bit, maybe not entirely, but just enough to ease some of my discomfort is something I have reached for a long time. And so to have basically laid that down and just went, boy, this is me at my most exposed, my most unpolished, it's a choice.

Sarah [00:47:58] But also, though, what was sweet 2018/2019 Jen's supposed to do? How was she supposed to have any reserves to describe and not proscribe and not shine it up after coming off, canceling and losing a community like that? She didn't have reserves.

Jen Hatmaker [00:48:13] That's nice. You're being nice to me right now and I appreciate that.

Sarah [00:48:16] I'm just saying. And you were raising teenagers.

Jen Hatmaker [00:48:19] Yeah, life was hard enough.

Sarah [00:48:23] Well, put a pin in that. I have some questions about that part.

Beth [00:48:28] I was going to say it's just helpful to read those memories as a parent hearing some of those stories coming home now. I was thinking about you because I just had a conversation primarily with my fourth grade daughter, but my eighth grade daughter was in the room for it too and I was explaining to her in a way that seemed to kind of break her brain that she is intimidating. And it's just really important that she learned to own that because it's going to be a part of her life experience. And my eighth grader is like, yeah, I've been through this sermon too, and I get it. But she chimed in pretty helpfully to say this is my experience too. Big groups of friends are going to be hard because you are kind of intimidating. Things that you say that are just you problem solving are going to come across as bossy and overbearing because you're intimidating. And that is also what makes you an incredible problem solver.

[00:49:28] It is also what makes you this extremely gifted writer. It's what makes funny, all of the things. And after that moment, I thought, "I feel like I have some of the words to wrap around this because of Jen Hatmaker reflections." I remember reading in one of your books when you described the different volumes that women present in the world and finally having this word mezzo to give myself. And so I think there's so much of that in Awake through these memories. Even where it's not prescriptive, it's like, okay, I have a sentence now about what this dynamic feels like. And maybe that will make it a softer experience for my kids to go through because we can at least put a sentence around what all of these hard things are that we're internalizing.

Jen Hatmaker [00:50:14] That's such good parenting. I am so delighted that your kids have a mirror in you, and you are giving them a reflection with language on how to be self-aware at those young ages. Self-awareness is so hard when you are young. You don't have the skills for it yet. You are still trying to sort out who am I, first of all, and why and how are people responding to me? And it's very hard to parse out like we're good at it because we're grown. So, what fantastic parenting. One of my favorite things about being a writer, going back to that being my tip of the spear, if I'm having to choose what I do, is that whatever it is, however this worked out, it just baked into my bones, I think, it comes very naturally to me to put language around an idea. It just does. I don't labor over that. I don't sit there and blink, blink, blink, blink at the blank page for a very long time.

[00:51:26] Those words, they just come. And so I'm like, okay, this is what I need to do and this is my work in the world. Because that for me is not labor, that is a joy. Just recently I was talking to somebody else who was saying, "There is nothing worse for me than like staring at that blank document open, the cursor blinking and no words on it yet and I just got to fill that page." And I remember just thinking-- and I didn't say this because I'm not an asshole. But I remember thinking, "Oh my God, that's my favorite thing. New document, new words that are about to emerge out of my thoughts." Let me be a writer until my very last breath.

Sarah [00:52:16] Okay, let's talk about this other role that you have that you've spoken to because now I'm just being selfish and I would like advice thank you so much. Five kids. Three boys, same, over here. About to turn 16, 14, 10. Can you tell me what to do? Can you just tell me? I did text you in a panic because we were getting in trouble at school a lot, and I was real struggling.

Jen Hatmaker [00:52:47] That's right.

Sarah [00:52:48] Really struggling with the whole... Because you know what I thought the other day-- it is actually in the midst of reading your book and I was reading something else. It was another thing about how to raise boys. And I thought, man, I'm getting conflicting advice here because I'm getting they're actually more tender than girls, especially when they're little, and you really need to care for them. And also, don't baby them and turn them into bitches their wives have to raise. So I'm like, man! Which one am I supposed to do?

Jen Hatmaker [00:53:17] Everybody has so many ideas about how we're supposed to raise these children. It could be so paralyzing. The different approaches. It's why I'm always like you know your kid. You're the best mom for that kid.

Sarah [00:53:30] But they're also different, damn it. I would perfect it and then the next one's very different and I can't apply the same rules. I don't like this. I'm struggling over here. I want to cling to their legs and not let them go and also slap them across the face at the same time!

Jen Hatmaker [00:53:48] Totally. I remember writing about my sons when they were seniors, and I'm like, it's such a weird time because there's a piece of me like you're just a baby, you're my little boy, you are the delight of my heart, you are a joy of my world, nobody makes me laugh harder, and then, also, get out. Just get out! Can you move to another place and live in a dorm? Can you not be here? Can you not be here? So I would feel all of those things within the span of 10 minutes. So parenting is just a real gauntlet is what I'm saying. And you're not doing it wrong. It's just that you're doing it. And parenting can be really lonely because the truth is there's just like your average like run-of-the-mill bullshittery that we put up with parenting, kids just being kids. But also parenting can really hard and kids can really struggle and they can really blow it. And they can really make enormous mistakes. And they can even emotionally drift away from you for a while. And those things are so painful, so scary, so disruptive, and sometimes so confusing, but also they're so private because that's their little story. And so we're lonely in it. It's not like something we can just say, "Hey, internet, my son has a DUI. Does anybody have any suggestions?" You know what I mean?

Sarah [00:55:18] It's not like there’s sleep struggles, they're waking up in the middle of night at three and talk to anybody and your mom about that.

Jen Hatmaker [00:55:23] Also, there's 400 billion books about it, so just go pick up one. But there's this nebulous space about the hard parts of parenting that we're, first of all, a little bit ashamed to talk about, so we can go ahead and say that feels like a reflection-- what did you do wrong as a mom? Was he not nurtured? Was she not heard? Whatever. And so we make that about us, which is a delightful mistake. And then of course there is a very real protection which is like I can't put my kids' worst moments out on blast. So instead we're just looking around going, "Are we doing this wrong? Will somebody help me? Does anybody know what I'm talking about?" So, I'm just saying it's a real joy is what I am saying. Always. Teenagers are so funny. They're so funny and they're so fun except when they're not. I don't know.

Sarah [00:56:22] Listen, the truth is I'd still take him over a toddler. DUIs and all. I would still take it over a damn toddler. They're not suited to my personality.

Jen Hatmaker [00:56:30] Same. I'm a big kid mom; I always have been. You're doing great. I am learning. My youngest is 19. So we are north of it. We're in the launched/almost launched phase. And so I just kind of now see that some of those like real whiplash moment, I'm going to say from sixth grade to, I guess, forever. But starting in sixth grade is when it started for us, that's when I started being like what is wrong with you? What is your problem? Where did you go? Why are you weird? That's just how it goes.

Sarah [00:57:14] Well, you have one married. You've reached the promised land.

Jen Hatmaker [00:57:17] I really have. God, he pays all his own bills. He has a 401k.

Sarah [00:57:21] And are they having a baby?

Jen Hatmaker [00:57:23] They're having a baby. I'm going to be a grandma in September.

Sarah [00:57:25] With a book?

Jen Hatmaker [00:57:26] I have two big things happening in September.

Sarah [00:57:29] What are you going to do in September? You're going to explode with joy and love.

Jen Hatmaker [00:57:34] That's right. And so I have a feeling I'm going to float through the book stuff, because I'm going to have a grandbaby. I'm going to be like, nothing really matters. I have a grandson.

Beth [00:57:41] I think that's so helpful. That was very kind of them to coordinate it this way.

Sarah [00:57:46] Are you going to kidnap it? You should just take it.

Jen Hatmaker [00:57:48] Here's the big problem. Initially, so they are due on September 11th. My book release was initially scheduled forever and ever on September 9th, and way before they got pregnant. And so, September 9 they're going to have a baby. I had just found this out. I'm like, this is not workable. There's no way this is going to happen. And then I think I can probably say this, when I'm still just going, I'm going to have to Simon and Schuster. Y'all need to make a new plan. And I was doom-scrolling on my phone, which is a really good pastime. It's good for the mental health. And up pops Elizabeth Gilbert on Instagram and she's doing a live thing and she is talking about her upcoming memoir. And it is kind of on loss and reinvention and midlife. Hello. And it comes out on September 9th. And I'm telling you the speed at which I texted the people and I was like, hey guys, heads up, we're going to have to pivot. There are a lot of writers I can just sit right next to on the same day in the same genre, but it is not Elizabeth Gilbert.

Sarah [00:59:11] Okay, but we have to let you go, which I hate, but are you picking a name or are you going to let the baby name you? This is of utmost importance to me, personally.

Jen Hatmaker [00:59:22] My nephews, my brother's kids, call me J, because that's what my brother calls me. So they call me J. So I'm like, why can't J just work? And then Gavin, my son, is like, you can't have the same grandma name that you have as an aunt name. And he's like, we should just let the baby name you. And I was like, honey, I love you. I do. You're my firstborn. You mean a lot to me. I care about you. But you're not involved here. This is nothing to do with you.

Sarah [00:59:50] This doesn't seem like something that Enneagram three could do.

Jen Hatmaker [00:59:52] No, just give me the baby, you've done your role, you've your part. You have no say in this. So the internet suggested that my grandma name be JJ, which is just a version. So I'm sitting with it. So, anyway, it's a boy and I'm just freaking out.

Sarah [01:00:16] I am so jealous.

Jen Hatmaker [01:00:18] I'm freaking out with joy.

Sarah [01:00:20] Because you're a baby person.

Jen Hatmaker [01:00:24] I am. But I don't want to raise them.

Sarah [01:00:25] Listen, I have an Oura ring and I have literal screenshots of what your heart rate will do when holding a newborn.

Jen Hatmaker [01:00:33] Oh my God.

Sarah [01:00:34] It just goes pop right down to relaxed and just stays there. I have scientific evidence.

Jen Hatmaker [01:00:40] You're right. You're a doctor.

Sarah [01:00:43] I'm a doctor.

Jen Hatmaker [01:00:44] Thank you for that bit of...

Sarah [01:00:47] And that's just any ol' baby off the street.

Jen Hatmaker [01:00:49] God, it's so true.

Sarah [01:00:50] That's just any ol' baby.

Jen Hatmaker [01:00:52] I know.

Sarah [01:00:53] Is that your first grandchild baby?

Jen Hatmaker [01:00:56] I have a secret wish always when I'm near a baby on an airplane. And this is dark. But I wish sometimes that the baby would have such a meltdown and the mom gets so overwhelmed that she asks me to hold her baby. And in my fantasy, I solve that baby's problems. We walk the aisle, that baby falls asleep on me because it understands that I am good at this. And my mom is like thank you.

Sarah [01:01:24] I've never met a crying baby I could not quiet ever, and I've met some hyped up babies.

Jen Hatmaker [01:01:28] I'm so good at this, too. Like I'm born for this. And so, anyway, just give me that grandson. You know what I'm saying? Just give him to me. Lucky me.

Beth [01:01:38] I am so happy that you have something that will naturally bring your heartbeat down at a time when you are launching this book, and so I think that you planned that perfectly. It works so well.

Jen Hatmaker [01:01:45] I never thought about that.

Beth [01:01:47] Thank you, Jen Hatmaker, for being with us.

Sarah [01:01:51] I love you so much.

Beth [01:01:51] Thank you for writing this book. Thank you giving us a career in broadcasting.

Sarah [01:01:55] Thank you for our work in the world. We appreciate that.

Beth [01:01:58] We appreciate you in all the ways.

Jen Hatmaker [01:02:00] You're my favorites, and you're the first two people that we sent that little book to. You're it. You're looking at each other.

Sarah [01:02:07] It's because I was harassing your team for months.

Jen Hatmaker [01:02:09] Doesn't matter. I saved your screenshots. I'm standing in the closet reading this for 30 minutes, I'm like, I want to remember that.

Sarah [01:02:19] I literally texted her. When you announced it, I was like, "I don't have to wait till September, do I?" And you're like, of course not. I'm like, thank God.

Jen Hatmaker [01:02:29] You're the best. I'm so proud of you. Congrats on 1,000 episodes, you guys. That is a body of work that is astounding and rare. That is rare. And your work is not easy. So, the way in which you have kept your feet on the gas on the most volatile, explosive issues and experiences and, brava, you've done it. And you've done it with so much integrity and so much intelligence. And thank God for your voices in this world right now. Please do not stop this year. If you can go three more years. I don't know what your plans are long term or how your mental health is doing, but please stay with us.

Sarah [01:03:24] We're not going anywhere.

Jen Hatmaker [01:03:26] Just get us, please, to 2028. That's all I'm asking.

Sarah [01:03:31] We're not going anywhere, don't worry.

Jen Hatmaker [01:03:32] Thank you.

Sarah [01:03:34] We love you both. Mwah!

Sharon [01:03:37] Hi Beth and Sarah. Congratulations to you and the whole team on 1,000 episodes. This is such an incredible milestone for you both to celebrate and this amazing community that you've built to celebrate with you. Like many others, you've been such a central part of my life personally as a resource and guide to all of the turbulent and chaotic ups and downs that we've all seen the past several years and your creativity and compassion and curiosity have been a constant encouragement, inspiration to me personally as we've all navigated so many big decisions and questions and transitions in our lives. And I've also had the honor of working with you professionally on your words in print form, seeing firsthand how devoted you are to telling the truth with passion but also with love and of course with nuance. And that's been a real highlight of my professional life as well. Really excited to see what the next 1,000 episodes worth of the Pantsuit Politics world have in store. Congratulations. Love you guys.

Sarah [01:04:51] Thank you so much to Jen for joining us, for joining us in 2018, for introducing so, so, so many of you to the show. And, of course, for telling her own story with such incredible courage and compassion. Thanks to all of you for being here for 1,000 episodes. It's so overwhelming. The gratitude is hard to put into words, even if we have spent 1,000 episodes putting things into words. There is no Pantsuit Politics without all of you. Beth, there would be no Pantsuit Politics if you had not said yes to me 10 years ago. So thank you. We're so grateful for all of you for every single episode. We hope you'll join us for the next 30 days, specifically as we re-imagine citizenship together. Check out our show notes for more info on how you can join us as a premium subscriber and be part of these next 30 day leading up to July 4th.

Beth [01:05:42] We'll be back with you on Friday with the first of some very special flashback episodes that we're going to share throughout the summer. We're going to look back on each year of our work together and think about that work and the news from that year with the benefit of some hindsight.

Sarah [01:05:56] Until then, keep it nuanced y'all.