Finally catching up on episodes and was struck so hard when you talked about the UHC CEO murder and how violence doesn't work and just how relevant that is today.
Funny timing…just finished the episode and am delighted you guys were off on your TS album prediction. Am excited to have something fun to look forward to 🧡
Not sure where to put this but I think here and especially on IG it would be helpful for whoever is replying from the PP account to sign their name at the end.
Re: “shitty” years… I try to remember that any given day is the worst day of someone’s life. Wow, I feel like this sounds bleak when I say it like that. It’s actually a helpful perspective shift in terms of not centering my concerns or the events I’m aware of as being how the world turns. I try to remember there’s a lot happening that I don’t know about, good and bad.
I will never understand why it's considered irrational to view the same economic numbers with sudden pessimism when people you believe to be some combination of cripplingly stupid and monstrously evil are about to grab the levers of power. The tariff and immigration policies are having the predicted negative effect on the economy. We were right.
I think the nihilism coming from the base is due to a crumbling belief that our current system as constituted is equipped to deliver the change that people feel they deserve. To deliver things that are good and broadly supported. And Democrats are doing very little to disabuse people of this feeling. Here's a recent small example: Kathy Hochul says it's very hard to do redistricting in New York before 2026. That should be considered an outrageous, unacceptable answer. Figure it out. Figure out what rules need to be changed or bent and then do it. Here's an idea: whenever a Democrat wants to do something good, they should treat it like it's a collapsed highway in Pennsylvania. Just. Get. It. Done.
My very uncharitable opinion about the left and Gaza is that it gave them an excuse to do their absolute favorite thing: hate Democrats. That's why the protests died down after the election even though the situation got worse. The left only cares about using the Democratic party nomination process to trojan horse a socialist onto the ticket and force Dems to use their party infrastructure to get that person elected. Since Democrats are the main obstacle to the their One Great Goal, all their ire is aimed at Ds, not Rs. Usually that is complicated because Republicans are worse on every issue they purport to care about, but Gaza gave them the morally pure excuse they craved.
I took a minute to look at the comments on Instagram, which has never occurred to me before, and I've been thinking about some responses to recent episodes and I'm thinking about how Sarah and Beth (hi Sarah and Beth) are 10 years older than when this podcast began. Just wait until they hit 50. Gotta let people grow.
To piggy back off what Liz said. In the 2023 Flashback episode, Sarah and Beth talked about being at odds with the audience in a way that had happened before. And, not gonna lie, the post-October 7th discourse really broke our Instagram (or me). You could really tell who was getting their news in 1-3 minute short form videos and carousels and who was going deep into long reads. And...there's a difference in the conversations and tone that people want to talk about.
We lost some of our audience, and you see that in those comments. Some people haven't listened in a long time, and (as can happen in ANY relationship) they like the old Sarah and Beth and "haven't met the new me yet" (to quote Taylor Swift). There's so much there with consumer culture, identity politics, tone policing, and (I venture to guess) a type of sexism that wants women like Sarah and Beth to always say and do the right thing as an affirmation of their goodness.
I mean, it makes sense to me with the horrific global crises happening that people feel like they are doing something by lashing out against messaging they don’t like when there is not a lot else we can do.
Also I want to say that something like Oct 7 felt impossible to know how to talk about. I don’t know if I always agreed with Beth and Sarah but I appreciated their effort.
The statement that "2025 hasn't been horrific" struck a nerve with some commenters who pointed out various ways in which horror has been visited upon certain communities, like Gaza or the immigrant population particularly. I think Beth and Sarah have stopped apologizing for their relative privilege and refuse to wallow in pessimism and doom and some listeners have found that change to not be to their taste.
To be clear, I find their perspective to resonate as I too work with balancing how to carry the daily horrors alongside the truth of my own life, which is currently good. It's about discernment: finding the call to action and where/how one can help, rather than simply sink into despair and shout into a microphone over how awful everything is.
I know this isn’t what Sarah and Beth are trying to say, and my reaction to this episode is very influenced by my current mental/emotional state, which could be better…but man I’m tired of being told I was wrong and dumb for supporting Kamala and genuinely believing she would’ve been a good, if not great, president - because that meant I wasn’t listening to the complaints of the “real” Americans who’d rather have a racist misogynist in office.
And I also don’t condone violence, but the left is moving in that direction because nothing else has worked, and people are desperate, and I kinda get it. I’m a Californian, and a few years ago, I would’ve been furious at Newsom saying we’ll redraw our congressional maps to counter Texas’s BS, now I’m like sure, go ahead. I wonder if this episode has been recorded “in real time” would Beth still so confidently say that republicans won’t be in power forever?
Allison, I’m with you on your Kamala comment. I don’t regret supporting her financially or with my vote at all. The most proud I’ve felt in the voting booth.
I never bought that Kamala would win. The polls were saying otherwise. (I interpret a 50/50 split as always going Republican because they are less likely to respond to polls thewse days.) However, I did hope. And while, cards on the table, I've always wanted Kamala as a Supreme Court justice more than a leader, I was happy to vote for her. I liked Kamala a lot more than I liked Hillary in 2016. In my view, she was LISTENING to people and proposing real things. And fake things. She also said she'd not tax tips. But she talked about having plans for first-time homeowners. She was addressing real problems and everbody was like "but you never mentioned the obvious fact that an 82 year old man is old so I don't trust you. I'm voting felon." I'm also all for California redistricting, which I really want to be against. In my heart of hearts I'm against it. But I'll vote for it if I have to.
With Kamala, I wanted to believe she could pull off beating Trump. I wanted to get psyched up. I watched the convention. I saw the energy from the crowds in Chicago and tried to channel it. I even convinced myself that the long lines I saw at community center I vote at every time in North Dallas was a good sign for Kamala. In the end, I knew in my gut she was not going to beat Trump.
I totally get what you’re saying and have felt the same way. I’ve learned to overlook the scolding tone that some of the episodes take on because I don’t think that’s the intent. But it does get tiresome being told that the message was wrong, the messenger was wrong, and that a lot of these supposedly reachable voters are serious people who are just concerned about the economy when what we’ve seen every day over the last ten years is that’s just not the case.
Exactly - I spent a weekend in Texas last September, and couldn’t watch more than 20 minutes of TV without seeing multiple ads from Cruz claiming Colin Allred was “ruining girls’ sports” so don’t tell me that transphobia didn’t motivate a lot of voters. And now we’re being told we need we need to reach out to those people to “bring them back” to the democratic side…and you don’t think there’s going to be a backlash to that?
Exactly this! And to be clear - I am NOT supporting violence at all. But being told over and over again to be the bigger person, to reach out, to find common ground, to figure out what makes them tick, to target the message better, and on and on when it is so one sided is pushing people to their limits. Where are the think pieces, the podcasts, the articles, or the books trying to understand me or my family or my community? They do not exist because they don’t care. Now personally I am working hard not to dehumanize anyone because that is not how I want to live my life. But I understand people being ready to throw taking the high road in the trash.
Oh I have been saying this since November 2016 when Hillbilly Elegy and Strangers in Their Own Land shot to the top of all the bestseller lists. Where’s the counterpart of someone from a red state going to live in California or New York for a year?
I've really loved this series. The group fitness class metaphor I used earlier on. It was super painful at first (and still is), but now I'm hooked and am an evangelist for it. 😂 I think the 5-10 period was especially rich in insight for me.
I'm not sure I have much insight on 2024 yet, but one thing I've observed about myself for a long time and was very present in 2024 is how easily I'm pulled in by what it seems like "everyone like me" thinks, and this includes Sarah & Beth too! I remember that spicy before the election, and I don't think I actually every listened to it, because I was too terrified to consider he might win again. When I hear lots of differing perspectives around me (like with Israel & Gaza), I'm able to find my own perspective more, and there are certain things where my core values are so strong that I can hold that line. I think it's really human to struggle with this, but I'd like to work on it. I've appreciated what Sarah has said in recent episodes about actually evaluating things, and not just deciding if you like it based on who said it/did it.
On the Taylor of it all, I would be ready for a sprinkling of new music (a vault track or two?!), but I don't think we're on the precipice of a whole new album. Hopefully next year, but who knows! Maybe she'll just do Debut TV for the 20th anniversary of that album and call it a year.
Oh, I also wonder a bit if part of the reason people condone violence against the rich/powerful is that they feel that's the only way someone in that position will experience consequences.
When Sarah said “My gut would tell me the truth but my loyalty to the party or the candidate will talk me out of it” - yep that is exactly what I experienced in 2024 😭 just clinging to a false sense of positivity about Kamala but this rock in my stomach of knowing
I appreciated the discussion of focusing on things you can do something about. This dovetails with the interview on Tuesday's episode where you all talked about getting involved in local issues, which are very important and where people have more agency.
Shortly after I listened to this episode, I read an essay from Well-Read Mom, a group Sarah introduced me to. An excerpt hit me the same way; "We spend untold hours and vast amounts of emotional energy absorbing news reels and fretting about evils beyond our control while subsequently hampering our ability to do good where we are: in our homes, in our local communities, in our own hearts."
Agree so much about the values part. I felt myself bristle at the “2025 hasn’t been horrible.” It’s not been for me personally but as a national citizen, I cannot think of a better word than horrible. The amount of breaking that has happened in such a short time takes my breath away.
Thank you for saying this - I “bristled” too and have been trying to wrestle with why.
I mean I know “why” - I have a small business that I came very close to shutting down this summer because of the China tariffs (I have 0 manufacturing options outside of China and it would be impossibly expensive to open a manufacturing facility here), my dads Venezuelans and a naturalized citizen and I’m constantly in fear for his safety / the safety of my uncles and cousins, I live in Florida and am bombarded by news articles about Alligator Alcatraz 😡 and my husband and I aren’t having a 4th kid in large part because I can’t guarantee I’ll have access to health care I might need after having 2 medically complicated pregnancies (one of which ended in an abortion.)
It’s been horrible and also, I know other people have experienced similar things in other years so it’s hard for me to emotionally separate what’s because of Trump and what’s just me having a hard year, ya know?
I’m totally on board for not saying the sky is falling over everything he does and also, for me, the sky does feel like it’s falling 🤷🏻♀️
I am struggling with this as well. I mean I don't know what you see where you are, but the ICE is on the news all of the time out here. I went to Home Depot on a Saturday afternoon about a month ago in a Hispanic area of town, and it was deserted. It was weird. There were like 5 people there. I have breakfast every Friday with a naturalized citizen who's taking steps in case the worst case scenario happens, which I'd like to think he's overreacting but I really don't know. I've read enough books on WWII. I think they may come for him eventually if we don't nip this whole thing in the bud, but it's going to be a long time before they get around to him. So pointing out that we have it good because we're white and middle class and my 401k is still up? Ugh. No thanks. I'm going to recognize this as a very ugly time and feel accordingly.
Yeah I agree it’s been a horrible year. I also can’t think of another word. That doesn’t mean I walk around miserable all the time or don’t have joy in my life but it’s always there, you know?
My husband is an economist, and I think this year will break him. He is not so worried about the immediate economy or the dumb executive orders Trump is doing, but the bigger changes that he feels will have long-term effects years down the road, especially the tax cuts. He is normally a very moderate and stable person who reminds us how much better we have it than our parents' generation did, so this is very unsettling to me. He is currently on a flight to Australia to give a talk. Maybe he will come back with a more nuanced point of few talking to these people who aren't living in the thick of this.
I agree about what my gut was telling me vs my heart and I see it much clearer in retrospect. Looking back, when I stopped listening to Sarah Longwell’s Focus Group podcast from the bulwark because it was too difficult hearing from the voters in these groups - that was a big red flag.
I wasn’t listening to the Bulwark at that time but I did hear a piece of their podcast talking about the election one week before made me feel ill. Everyone seemed to see the writing on the wall and I just couldn’t take it and turned it off.
I noticed a lot of pushback to the Instagram post about this episode, and wanted to leave a comment here to tell you I'm grateful for your introspection and thoughtfulness. Thank you for unapologetically standing against violence and for modeling the humility it takes to say, "I got this wrong. . ."
I really appreciate you both sharing your insights. I think I am ready to move forward and leave the 2024 election diagnosis behind for now. It will inform everything but this episode helped me put a container around it of sorts.
Maybe this is a hot take, but in the Luigi Mangioni part of the conversation I struggled with the discussion of it being that *he* did it.
I’m not one for conspiracies, but beyond the fact that he’s currently being held for the murder and hasn’t been tried (so is currently just accused), there is so much of the investigation that we know has been icky and poorly done, that it still feels really unclear if he did it or he is the scapegoat.
Finally catching up on episodes and was struck so hard when you talked about the UHC CEO murder and how violence doesn't work and just how relevant that is today.
Funny timing…just finished the episode and am delighted you guys were off on your TS album prediction. Am excited to have something fun to look forward to 🧡
Not sure where to put this but I think here and especially on IG it would be helpful for whoever is replying from the PP account to sign their name at the end.
Re: “shitty” years… I try to remember that any given day is the worst day of someone’s life. Wow, I feel like this sounds bleak when I say it like that. It’s actually a helpful perspective shift in terms of not centering my concerns or the events I’m aware of as being how the world turns. I try to remember there’s a lot happening that I don’t know about, good and bad.
I will never understand why it's considered irrational to view the same economic numbers with sudden pessimism when people you believe to be some combination of cripplingly stupid and monstrously evil are about to grab the levers of power. The tariff and immigration policies are having the predicted negative effect on the economy. We were right.
I think the nihilism coming from the base is due to a crumbling belief that our current system as constituted is equipped to deliver the change that people feel they deserve. To deliver things that are good and broadly supported. And Democrats are doing very little to disabuse people of this feeling. Here's a recent small example: Kathy Hochul says it's very hard to do redistricting in New York before 2026. That should be considered an outrageous, unacceptable answer. Figure it out. Figure out what rules need to be changed or bent and then do it. Here's an idea: whenever a Democrat wants to do something good, they should treat it like it's a collapsed highway in Pennsylvania. Just. Get. It. Done.
My very uncharitable opinion about the left and Gaza is that it gave them an excuse to do their absolute favorite thing: hate Democrats. That's why the protests died down after the election even though the situation got worse. The left only cares about using the Democratic party nomination process to trojan horse a socialist onto the ticket and force Dems to use their party infrastructure to get that person elected. Since Democrats are the main obstacle to the their One Great Goal, all their ire is aimed at Ds, not Rs. Usually that is complicated because Republicans are worse on every issue they purport to care about, but Gaza gave them the morally pure excuse they craved.
I took a minute to look at the comments on Instagram, which has never occurred to me before, and I've been thinking about some responses to recent episodes and I'm thinking about how Sarah and Beth (hi Sarah and Beth) are 10 years older than when this podcast began. Just wait until they hit 50. Gotta let people grow.
I’m not on IG, what kinds of things are people saying?
To piggy back off what Liz said. In the 2023 Flashback episode, Sarah and Beth talked about being at odds with the audience in a way that had happened before. And, not gonna lie, the post-October 7th discourse really broke our Instagram (or me). You could really tell who was getting their news in 1-3 minute short form videos and carousels and who was going deep into long reads. And...there's a difference in the conversations and tone that people want to talk about.
We lost some of our audience, and you see that in those comments. Some people haven't listened in a long time, and (as can happen in ANY relationship) they like the old Sarah and Beth and "haven't met the new me yet" (to quote Taylor Swift). There's so much there with consumer culture, identity politics, tone policing, and (I venture to guess) a type of sexism that wants women like Sarah and Beth to always say and do the right thing as an affirmation of their goodness.
It's a different kind of wilderness for sure.
I mean, it makes sense to me with the horrific global crises happening that people feel like they are doing something by lashing out against messaging they don’t like when there is not a lot else we can do.
Also I want to say that something like Oct 7 felt impossible to know how to talk about. I don’t know if I always agreed with Beth and Sarah but I appreciated their effort.
The statement that "2025 hasn't been horrific" struck a nerve with some commenters who pointed out various ways in which horror has been visited upon certain communities, like Gaza or the immigrant population particularly. I think Beth and Sarah have stopped apologizing for their relative privilege and refuse to wallow in pessimism and doom and some listeners have found that change to not be to their taste.
To be clear, I find their perspective to resonate as I too work with balancing how to carry the daily horrors alongside the truth of my own life, which is currently good. It's about discernment: finding the call to action and where/how one can help, rather than simply sink into despair and shout into a microphone over how awful everything is.
I know this isn’t what Sarah and Beth are trying to say, and my reaction to this episode is very influenced by my current mental/emotional state, which could be better…but man I’m tired of being told I was wrong and dumb for supporting Kamala and genuinely believing she would’ve been a good, if not great, president - because that meant I wasn’t listening to the complaints of the “real” Americans who’d rather have a racist misogynist in office.
And I also don’t condone violence, but the left is moving in that direction because nothing else has worked, and people are desperate, and I kinda get it. I’m a Californian, and a few years ago, I would’ve been furious at Newsom saying we’ll redraw our congressional maps to counter Texas’s BS, now I’m like sure, go ahead. I wonder if this episode has been recorded “in real time” would Beth still so confidently say that republicans won’t be in power forever?
Allison, I’m with you on your Kamala comment. I don’t regret supporting her financially or with my vote at all. The most proud I’ve felt in the voting booth.
You were not wrong and dumb for supporting the objectively better candidate. The people who supported the objectively worse candidate were.
I never bought that Kamala would win. The polls were saying otherwise. (I interpret a 50/50 split as always going Republican because they are less likely to respond to polls thewse days.) However, I did hope. And while, cards on the table, I've always wanted Kamala as a Supreme Court justice more than a leader, I was happy to vote for her. I liked Kamala a lot more than I liked Hillary in 2016. In my view, she was LISTENING to people and proposing real things. And fake things. She also said she'd not tax tips. But she talked about having plans for first-time homeowners. She was addressing real problems and everbody was like "but you never mentioned the obvious fact that an 82 year old man is old so I don't trust you. I'm voting felon." I'm also all for California redistricting, which I really want to be against. In my heart of hearts I'm against it. But I'll vote for it if I have to.
The 2024 election experience to me felt like watching a car crash in slow motion and not being able to do anything to stop it.
2025 not much better!
With Kamala, I wanted to believe she could pull off beating Trump. I wanted to get psyched up. I watched the convention. I saw the energy from the crowds in Chicago and tried to channel it. I even convinced myself that the long lines I saw at community center I vote at every time in North Dallas was a good sign for Kamala. In the end, I knew in my gut she was not going to beat Trump.
I totally get what you’re saying and have felt the same way. I’ve learned to overlook the scolding tone that some of the episodes take on because I don’t think that’s the intent. But it does get tiresome being told that the message was wrong, the messenger was wrong, and that a lot of these supposedly reachable voters are serious people who are just concerned about the economy when what we’ve seen every day over the last ten years is that’s just not the case.
Exactly - I spent a weekend in Texas last September, and couldn’t watch more than 20 minutes of TV without seeing multiple ads from Cruz claiming Colin Allred was “ruining girls’ sports” so don’t tell me that transphobia didn’t motivate a lot of voters. And now we’re being told we need we need to reach out to those people to “bring them back” to the democratic side…and you don’t think there’s going to be a backlash to that?
Exactly this! And to be clear - I am NOT supporting violence at all. But being told over and over again to be the bigger person, to reach out, to find common ground, to figure out what makes them tick, to target the message better, and on and on when it is so one sided is pushing people to their limits. Where are the think pieces, the podcasts, the articles, or the books trying to understand me or my family or my community? They do not exist because they don’t care. Now personally I am working hard not to dehumanize anyone because that is not how I want to live my life. But I understand people being ready to throw taking the high road in the trash.
Oh I have been saying this since November 2016 when Hillbilly Elegy and Strangers in Their Own Land shot to the top of all the bestseller lists. Where’s the counterpart of someone from a red state going to live in California or New York for a year?
I've really loved this series. The group fitness class metaphor I used earlier on. It was super painful at first (and still is), but now I'm hooked and am an evangelist for it. 😂 I think the 5-10 period was especially rich in insight for me.
I'm not sure I have much insight on 2024 yet, but one thing I've observed about myself for a long time and was very present in 2024 is how easily I'm pulled in by what it seems like "everyone like me" thinks, and this includes Sarah & Beth too! I remember that spicy before the election, and I don't think I actually every listened to it, because I was too terrified to consider he might win again. When I hear lots of differing perspectives around me (like with Israel & Gaza), I'm able to find my own perspective more, and there are certain things where my core values are so strong that I can hold that line. I think it's really human to struggle with this, but I'd like to work on it. I've appreciated what Sarah has said in recent episodes about actually evaluating things, and not just deciding if you like it based on who said it/did it.
On the Taylor of it all, I would be ready for a sprinkling of new music (a vault track or two?!), but I don't think we're on the precipice of a whole new album. Hopefully next year, but who knows! Maybe she'll just do Debut TV for the 20th anniversary of that album and call it a year.
Oh, I also wonder a bit if part of the reason people condone violence against the rich/powerful is that they feel that's the only way someone in that position will experience consequences.
Thank you so much for this series!! It was an incredible exercise in humility and self reflection. I loved every episode!
When Sarah said “My gut would tell me the truth but my loyalty to the party or the candidate will talk me out of it” - yep that is exactly what I experienced in 2024 😭 just clinging to a false sense of positivity about Kamala but this rock in my stomach of knowing
I appreciated the discussion of focusing on things you can do something about. This dovetails with the interview on Tuesday's episode where you all talked about getting involved in local issues, which are very important and where people have more agency.
Shortly after I listened to this episode, I read an essay from Well-Read Mom, a group Sarah introduced me to. An excerpt hit me the same way; "We spend untold hours and vast amounts of emotional energy absorbing news reels and fretting about evils beyond our control while subsequently hampering our ability to do good where we are: in our homes, in our local communities, in our own hearts."
Agree so much about the values part. I felt myself bristle at the “2025 hasn’t been horrible.” It’s not been for me personally but as a national citizen, I cannot think of a better word than horrible. The amount of breaking that has happened in such a short time takes my breath away.
Thank you for saying this - I “bristled” too and have been trying to wrestle with why.
I mean I know “why” - I have a small business that I came very close to shutting down this summer because of the China tariffs (I have 0 manufacturing options outside of China and it would be impossibly expensive to open a manufacturing facility here), my dads Venezuelans and a naturalized citizen and I’m constantly in fear for his safety / the safety of my uncles and cousins, I live in Florida and am bombarded by news articles about Alligator Alcatraz 😡 and my husband and I aren’t having a 4th kid in large part because I can’t guarantee I’ll have access to health care I might need after having 2 medically complicated pregnancies (one of which ended in an abortion.)
It’s been horrible and also, I know other people have experienced similar things in other years so it’s hard for me to emotionally separate what’s because of Trump and what’s just me having a hard year, ya know?
I’m totally on board for not saying the sky is falling over everything he does and also, for me, the sky does feel like it’s falling 🤷🏻♀️
I am struggling with this as well. I mean I don't know what you see where you are, but the ICE is on the news all of the time out here. I went to Home Depot on a Saturday afternoon about a month ago in a Hispanic area of town, and it was deserted. It was weird. There were like 5 people there. I have breakfast every Friday with a naturalized citizen who's taking steps in case the worst case scenario happens, which I'd like to think he's overreacting but I really don't know. I've read enough books on WWII. I think they may come for him eventually if we don't nip this whole thing in the bud, but it's going to be a long time before they get around to him. So pointing out that we have it good because we're white and middle class and my 401k is still up? Ugh. No thanks. I'm going to recognize this as a very ugly time and feel accordingly.
Yeah I agree it’s been a horrible year. I also can’t think of another word. That doesn’t mean I walk around miserable all the time or don’t have joy in my life but it’s always there, you know?
My husband is an economist, and I think this year will break him. He is not so worried about the immediate economy or the dumb executive orders Trump is doing, but the bigger changes that he feels will have long-term effects years down the road, especially the tax cuts. He is normally a very moderate and stable person who reminds us how much better we have it than our parents' generation did, so this is very unsettling to me. He is currently on a flight to Australia to give a talk. Maybe he will come back with a more nuanced point of few talking to these people who aren't living in the thick of this.
I agree about what my gut was telling me vs my heart and I see it much clearer in retrospect. Looking back, when I stopped listening to Sarah Longwell’s Focus Group podcast from the bulwark because it was too difficult hearing from the voters in these groups - that was a big red flag.
I wasn’t listening to the Bulwark at that time but I did hear a piece of their podcast talking about the election one week before made me feel ill. Everyone seemed to see the writing on the wall and I just couldn’t take it and turned it off.
I noticed a lot of pushback to the Instagram post about this episode, and wanted to leave a comment here to tell you I'm grateful for your introspection and thoughtfulness. Thank you for unapologetically standing against violence and for modeling the humility it takes to say, "I got this wrong. . ."
I really appreciate you both sharing your insights. I think I am ready to move forward and leave the 2024 election diagnosis behind for now. It will inform everything but this episode helped me put a container around it of sorts.
Maybe this is a hot take, but in the Luigi Mangioni part of the conversation I struggled with the discussion of it being that *he* did it.
I’m not one for conspiracies, but beyond the fact that he’s currently being held for the murder and hasn’t been tried (so is currently just accused), there is so much of the investigation that we know has been icky and poorly done, that it still feels really unclear if he did it or he is the scapegoat.