I really felt the point about the prevalence of cameras and social media limiting people’s drinking very interesting. I posed it to my 24 year old son and he agreed.
It’s hard to let down your inhibitions when you never know if a stranger is taking your picture and posting it to the world.
I've never drank much. It wasn't ever considered something special. Growing up in the us mostly we just didn't have any in the house. Spending a few years with my family in Spain - it was served with most meals. I tried it once and - horrible! lol
Later in college I did drink a few times. And mostly I ended up making sure my college roommate was safe.
I'm glad people are reducing intake it's healthier and better for their communities.
Peace be with all of you on this journey. Know that you are loved wherever you are today.
I had a lot of thoughts during this episode, and I think this is a conversation that requires a lot of nuance.
In 1999, I spent a semester studying abroad in London. I was with a group of 20+ Lutheran college kids from different universities put together into a cohort to study at an Anglican seminary. Most of us were under 21, and boy did we take advantage of the legal drinking age. We could walk to our favorite pup from the seminary and most of us made that trek at least once a week. (Note, we were walking, not driving, and we made sure everyone got home safely each time we went.) The handful of photos I have from those nights are precious, including our Thanksgiving celebration away from home, as we closed down the pub. Were some of my peers super irresponsible? Yeah, we were young adults getting a taste of total freedom. But I wouldn't give those nights of uninhibited conversation and friendship building for anything. Like Beth, I've never been one to truly overindulge. I hate being sick and I do not want to lose control. But those memories are everything. I don't regret a thing.
Now I'm 46 and I don't drink often because I don't want to consume empty calories. I've become a super lightweight. But I do enjoy it on occasion and usually do it with others and not alone. My husband loves a good bourbon and we've done the Bourbon Trail a couple of times. We live near several wineries in Indiana and I love a quiet wine tasting. And honestly, I'm really concerned that we are replacing one vice with another, because the addiction to our screens and how that is fracturing our entire society is destroying us.
As a high school teacher and mom to teens, I'm not a fan of any of the vices, but kids are hungry for conversation and companionship and many lack the skills of social interaction because they are too glued to their phones, just like us adults. I really want to keep talking about this and trying to find a solution because it isn't great. (I also have thoughts about the drop in kids having sex but I'm working through those thoughts as a Purity Culture kid.)
I suspect that the reporting on marijuana usage is somewhat flawed by people’s growing willingness to disclose their usage now that it’s more likely to be legal and/or more commonplace. Right?!?
i also think for the younger set you can’t ignore the $$ cost of drinking - they are/have to be a lot more conscious about their discretionary spending and i think they are much more likely to choose to spend on health related things (quality of food ingredients/gym memberships, etc)
I have a rule to not drink alone because I was using alcohol to avoid feeling shitty. Then therapy started helping more. Now I only use it to relax and enjoy social situations.
My oldest (21) regularly uses alcohol and vapes Marijuana to cope with anxiety. My middle kid (18) is into sports and dead set on never doing any of it. My youngest will probably be an occasional drinker and drug user. They watched their dad abuse alcohol for over a decade to cope with his PTSD, and he wasn't a pleasant drunk.
I live 7 minutes from a great brewery and still love a happy hour but it's definitely not part of my regular routine anymore. I feel like there were a lot of microbreweries opening up and now we're at peak saturation for the marketplace.
I’m coming in with 96 comments before me so maybe this has already been said. I love the idea that you need to get to know your neighbor before you complain or confront them about something. I think just the act of getting to know them may help lessen your annoyance. Then it’s not just that neighbor over there and his marijuana smoke. It’s “my neighbor who’s a really cool guy and yeah occasionally his marijuana smoke gets over here but he’s really nice.”
So let me start by saying I once wrote a mommy wine blog and it didn’t feel harmful. “Wine” served as fun play on “whine” and I felt like many people resonated with the stories I shared. So I always feel a bit defensive when I hear about the detriment of wine mom culture but we never talk about Dad beer culture or Dad whiskey culture .
I moved away from the wine mom culture when I stopped blogging and the discourse around wine mom culture became toxic.
I love wine. I take wine classes with a local sommelier and have found friends and community doing so. I genuinely enjoy wine and prefer a glass of wine at night to a sugary snack or a bowl of ice cream.
I feel like we often live in an all or nothing mentality where it’s abstaining is put on a pedestal and indulgence is viewed as bad or weakness. And then the narrative shifts and it flips to you’re boring if you don’t drink and you’re fun if you do.
And while there are dangers to any vice, I wish as a society spent more time on how Beth described Chads moderation with gambling . That people do have the ability to enjoy things in moderation.
Our alcohol consumption is way down thanks to one of us taking a GLP-1. The desire for it is gone along with the food noise and desire for food. I don’t know when we will drink the 100+ bottles in the wine closet.
I kept waiting on them to bring up the millions of Americans on GLP-1s during the episode. My husband and I both take one for T2 diabetes and our alcohol consumption has gone from low/moderate to almost nothing.
So funny, this was in my inbox right after listening to this episode. Tom Farley has been commissioner of health for both NYC and Penn (and he was once my boss!).
I am literally 2 weeks late on listening to this episode but thank you so much Dee for sharing this! So interesting to see the correlation between cirrhosis and hard liquor.
My husband has cirrhosis due to autoimmune disorder and luckily caught super early (all is well) but he has had to stop drinking all together. He was never a big drinker to begin with but would be nice to have in social situations sometimes (which I totally sympathize with).
The advice about the acolyte chewing gum is genius. Makes me think of my sister in law, she has no problem calling kids on their shit, but also is very invested in their lives. The kids respect her. Her only interaction is not to call out people.
I may be in the minority here, but I love alcohol and enjoy it regularly. My husband and I met because we both worked at our local college "all beer" bar and that started my love of craft beers. My husband is now gluten free so we've switched to ciders, are a part of a few wine clubs/subscriptions, and we love making and sharing a good craft cocktail.
Sharing a good bottle of wine or a fancy cocktail with family/friends is truly one of my favorite experiences in life.
My relationship with alcohol has definitely changed over the years and I have some of the same problems many here have posted in that I know alcohol can affect my sleep, so that will dictate when I drink or how much, but overall I'd like to think I have a pretty healthy relationship with alcohol. We also have some friends who choose to drink nonalcoholic beer and we share in that with them as well - the non alcoholic Corona for example is quite delicious! There are so many quality options now for those who drink alcohol, low alcohol, or non alcoholic beverages. I love that people can enjoy in a way that feels right for them.
When you spoke about vices, I'm a little surprised the topic of vaping didn't come up. There are SO many people who vape now and the places I see people vaping are places that no one would "smoke". It's almost like society needs to update all the "no smoking" signage to include vaping. I am very concerned with the amount of people (including youth) who vape all the time and feel like it's a healthy alternative to smoking.
I appreciated the nuance and complexity of this conversation, and would add that my own view of how alcohol has on average influenced my life and environment is actually quite positive. Growing up, one of very few pieces of common ground between my mom’s WASPy family and my dad’s Hunga-Rican one was that they all enjoyed a good drink or 7 when we all got together. And in all those gatherings, as a kid who wasn’t partaking but was very enmeshed in the vibes, I recall getting only more and more comfortable, relaxed, happy, and sensing my own and my family’s respective belonging more and more throughout our time together as the laughter grew louder and smiles wider.
It wasn’t about getting drunk and doing wild things - quite the opposite. It was about recognizing that this was a time for connection and humanity and joy, not productivity and doing. And it was a time to be vulnerable with people we trusted.
I think we really miss something when we say that taking a pharmaceutical product that treats a mental health condition is a hands-down improvement over moderate alcohol consumption. Drugs have negative side effects, just like alcohol. And there are ways in which the reliance on mental health medications goes hand-in-hand with the wrongheaded idea that we can self optimize and maximize our life outcomes by following a strict set of disciplines that will make us perfectly healthy and happy without needing anyone else. Let me be clear that I am very pro-medication to help people who need help - I’m not bashing their use in general. And — our sadness or anxiety is often a sign that we need more connection and humanity and pleasure and vulnerability — that’s a message, not a symptom of disease, and covering it up with meds doesn’t fix the underlying issue. So if we rely only on our own devices to meet our own needs and cover up the ways in which we are still incomplete, I don’t think it’s a win for us to then cheer that we aren’t engaging in vulnerable behaviors that can deepen human connection.
All of this to say - I think a world where people don’t drink at all would likely be one that is less joyful, meaningful, and human. It feels super counter cultural to say. But I am heartened by recalling that turning water to wine was Jesus’s first miracle. I believe that God loves us and wants us to feel joy, and gave us tools like wine to help us celebrate responsibly.
Sarah trying so hard not to call mocktails soda had me giggling.
I also really appreciated the perspective of the value of relationships that have money exchanged. This one as an example is a great one. It doesn’t replace your village, being a villager or spending in person parallel time with another human, but it is additive to the human experience!
Enjoyed this conversation but I kind of feel like I did after the last one that I would have liked to have someone that alcohol was a bigger part of their life in this conversation for their take.
From what I’ve seen it is partly that everyone is just eating so much protein so for health reasons. But also I think social media has passed a lot a lot of the negative info. 15 years ago when I first realized that alcohol was messing with my sleep no one would believe me when I said that.
I still do drink and really enjoy it. As I get older I can’t stand sugary drinks and Diet Coke makes me fell bad(I hate getting older). I do really enjoy the complex flavors of wine and beer and I think I would have a hard time paying for a pricey mock tail. Willing to give it a shot though.
So I think I have a spiritual gift of companionship. I am a very good friend and I can be an uplifting, gentle presence to be around. People have told me for over a decade that they just want to carry me around in their pocket. I don’t want to be paid to do chaplaincy (except like by an organization). Ideally, honestly, I would love it if people helped provide for my needs even in a physical way. Not like donating to a church… but like helping me get groceries and helping me live my life. I don’t know if that makes sense. Like in Cambodia I learned that some Buddhist monks can’t make their own food or own things… but the community around them leaves food outside, knowing they will come and eat it. I’m curious about what that sort of model would look like for spiritual and other caregivers in the US.
I really felt the point about the prevalence of cameras and social media limiting people’s drinking very interesting. I posed it to my 24 year old son and he agreed.
It’s hard to let down your inhibitions when you never know if a stranger is taking your picture and posting it to the world.
I've never drank much. It wasn't ever considered something special. Growing up in the us mostly we just didn't have any in the house. Spending a few years with my family in Spain - it was served with most meals. I tried it once and - horrible! lol
Later in college I did drink a few times. And mostly I ended up making sure my college roommate was safe.
I'm glad people are reducing intake it's healthier and better for their communities.
Peace be with all of you on this journey. Know that you are loved wherever you are today.
I had a lot of thoughts during this episode, and I think this is a conversation that requires a lot of nuance.
In 1999, I spent a semester studying abroad in London. I was with a group of 20+ Lutheran college kids from different universities put together into a cohort to study at an Anglican seminary. Most of us were under 21, and boy did we take advantage of the legal drinking age. We could walk to our favorite pup from the seminary and most of us made that trek at least once a week. (Note, we were walking, not driving, and we made sure everyone got home safely each time we went.) The handful of photos I have from those nights are precious, including our Thanksgiving celebration away from home, as we closed down the pub. Were some of my peers super irresponsible? Yeah, we were young adults getting a taste of total freedom. But I wouldn't give those nights of uninhibited conversation and friendship building for anything. Like Beth, I've never been one to truly overindulge. I hate being sick and I do not want to lose control. But those memories are everything. I don't regret a thing.
Now I'm 46 and I don't drink often because I don't want to consume empty calories. I've become a super lightweight. But I do enjoy it on occasion and usually do it with others and not alone. My husband loves a good bourbon and we've done the Bourbon Trail a couple of times. We live near several wineries in Indiana and I love a quiet wine tasting. And honestly, I'm really concerned that we are replacing one vice with another, because the addiction to our screens and how that is fracturing our entire society is destroying us.
As a high school teacher and mom to teens, I'm not a fan of any of the vices, but kids are hungry for conversation and companionship and many lack the skills of social interaction because they are too glued to their phones, just like us adults. I really want to keep talking about this and trying to find a solution because it isn't great. (I also have thoughts about the drop in kids having sex but I'm working through those thoughts as a Purity Culture kid.)
I suspect that the reporting on marijuana usage is somewhat flawed by people’s growing willingness to disclose their usage now that it’s more likely to be legal and/or more commonplace. Right?!?
i also think for the younger set you can’t ignore the $$ cost of drinking - they are/have to be a lot more conscious about their discretionary spending and i think they are much more likely to choose to spend on health related things (quality of food ingredients/gym memberships, etc)
I have a rule to not drink alone because I was using alcohol to avoid feeling shitty. Then therapy started helping more. Now I only use it to relax and enjoy social situations.
My oldest (21) regularly uses alcohol and vapes Marijuana to cope with anxiety. My middle kid (18) is into sports and dead set on never doing any of it. My youngest will probably be an occasional drinker and drug user. They watched their dad abuse alcohol for over a decade to cope with his PTSD, and he wasn't a pleasant drunk.
I live 7 minutes from a great brewery and still love a happy hour but it's definitely not part of my regular routine anymore. I feel like there were a lot of microbreweries opening up and now we're at peak saturation for the marketplace.
I’m coming in with 96 comments before me so maybe this has already been said. I love the idea that you need to get to know your neighbor before you complain or confront them about something. I think just the act of getting to know them may help lessen your annoyance. Then it’s not just that neighbor over there and his marijuana smoke. It’s “my neighbor who’s a really cool guy and yeah occasionally his marijuana smoke gets over here but he’s really nice.”
So let me start by saying I once wrote a mommy wine blog and it didn’t feel harmful. “Wine” served as fun play on “whine” and I felt like many people resonated with the stories I shared. So I always feel a bit defensive when I hear about the detriment of wine mom culture but we never talk about Dad beer culture or Dad whiskey culture .
I moved away from the wine mom culture when I stopped blogging and the discourse around wine mom culture became toxic.
I love wine. I take wine classes with a local sommelier and have found friends and community doing so. I genuinely enjoy wine and prefer a glass of wine at night to a sugary snack or a bowl of ice cream.
I feel like we often live in an all or nothing mentality where it’s abstaining is put on a pedestal and indulgence is viewed as bad or weakness. And then the narrative shifts and it flips to you’re boring if you don’t drink and you’re fun if you do.
And while there are dangers to any vice, I wish as a society spent more time on how Beth described Chads moderation with gambling . That people do have the ability to enjoy things in moderation.
Interesting point!!
Our alcohol consumption is way down thanks to one of us taking a GLP-1. The desire for it is gone along with the food noise and desire for food. I don’t know when we will drink the 100+ bottles in the wine closet.
Came here to say just this thing!
I kept waiting on them to bring up the millions of Americans on GLP-1s during the episode. My husband and I both take one for T2 diabetes and our alcohol consumption has gone from low/moderate to almost nothing.
It does seem like the GLP-1s are the secret link between last Friday's episode about health insurance and this one. -m
Christmas gifts for forever?
So funny, this was in my inbox right after listening to this episode. Tom Farley has been commissioner of health for both NYC and Penn (and he was once my boss!).
https://open.substack.com/pub/healthscaping/p/update-on-the-epidemic-of-cirrhosis?r=2g5gv&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
I am literally 2 weeks late on listening to this episode but thank you so much Dee for sharing this! So interesting to see the correlation between cirrhosis and hard liquor.
My husband has cirrhosis due to autoimmune disorder and luckily caught super early (all is well) but he has had to stop drinking all together. He was never a big drinker to begin with but would be nice to have in social situations sometimes (which I totally sympathize with).
That's SO interesting!
The advice about the acolyte chewing gum is genius. Makes me think of my sister in law, she has no problem calling kids on their shit, but also is very invested in their lives. The kids respect her. Her only interaction is not to call out people.
I may be in the minority here, but I love alcohol and enjoy it regularly. My husband and I met because we both worked at our local college "all beer" bar and that started my love of craft beers. My husband is now gluten free so we've switched to ciders, are a part of a few wine clubs/subscriptions, and we love making and sharing a good craft cocktail.
Sharing a good bottle of wine or a fancy cocktail with family/friends is truly one of my favorite experiences in life.
My relationship with alcohol has definitely changed over the years and I have some of the same problems many here have posted in that I know alcohol can affect my sleep, so that will dictate when I drink or how much, but overall I'd like to think I have a pretty healthy relationship with alcohol. We also have some friends who choose to drink nonalcoholic beer and we share in that with them as well - the non alcoholic Corona for example is quite delicious! There are so many quality options now for those who drink alcohol, low alcohol, or non alcoholic beverages. I love that people can enjoy in a way that feels right for them.
When you spoke about vices, I'm a little surprised the topic of vaping didn't come up. There are SO many people who vape now and the places I see people vaping are places that no one would "smoke". It's almost like society needs to update all the "no smoking" signage to include vaping. I am very concerned with the amount of people (including youth) who vape all the time and feel like it's a healthy alternative to smoking.
I appreciated the nuance and complexity of this conversation, and would add that my own view of how alcohol has on average influenced my life and environment is actually quite positive. Growing up, one of very few pieces of common ground between my mom’s WASPy family and my dad’s Hunga-Rican one was that they all enjoyed a good drink or 7 when we all got together. And in all those gatherings, as a kid who wasn’t partaking but was very enmeshed in the vibes, I recall getting only more and more comfortable, relaxed, happy, and sensing my own and my family’s respective belonging more and more throughout our time together as the laughter grew louder and smiles wider.
It wasn’t about getting drunk and doing wild things - quite the opposite. It was about recognizing that this was a time for connection and humanity and joy, not productivity and doing. And it was a time to be vulnerable with people we trusted.
I think we really miss something when we say that taking a pharmaceutical product that treats a mental health condition is a hands-down improvement over moderate alcohol consumption. Drugs have negative side effects, just like alcohol. And there are ways in which the reliance on mental health medications goes hand-in-hand with the wrongheaded idea that we can self optimize and maximize our life outcomes by following a strict set of disciplines that will make us perfectly healthy and happy without needing anyone else. Let me be clear that I am very pro-medication to help people who need help - I’m not bashing their use in general. And — our sadness or anxiety is often a sign that we need more connection and humanity and pleasure and vulnerability — that’s a message, not a symptom of disease, and covering it up with meds doesn’t fix the underlying issue. So if we rely only on our own devices to meet our own needs and cover up the ways in which we are still incomplete, I don’t think it’s a win for us to then cheer that we aren’t engaging in vulnerable behaviors that can deepen human connection.
All of this to say - I think a world where people don’t drink at all would likely be one that is less joyful, meaningful, and human. It feels super counter cultural to say. But I am heartened by recalling that turning water to wine was Jesus’s first miracle. I believe that God loves us and wants us to feel joy, and gave us tools like wine to help us celebrate responsibly.
Same. I come from an Italian family. I think alcohol can be a great contributor to social connection and the connection is the most important thing.
Sarah trying so hard not to call mocktails soda had me giggling.
I also really appreciated the perspective of the value of relationships that have money exchanged. This one as an example is a great one. It doesn’t replace your village, being a villager or spending in person parallel time with another human, but it is additive to the human experience!
Enjoyed this conversation but I kind of feel like I did after the last one that I would have liked to have someone that alcohol was a bigger part of their life in this conversation for their take.
From what I’ve seen it is partly that everyone is just eating so much protein so for health reasons. But also I think social media has passed a lot a lot of the negative info. 15 years ago when I first realized that alcohol was messing with my sleep no one would believe me when I said that.
I still do drink and really enjoy it. As I get older I can’t stand sugary drinks and Diet Coke makes me fell bad(I hate getting older). I do really enjoy the complex flavors of wine and beer and I think I would have a hard time paying for a pricey mock tail. Willing to give it a shot though.
Sometimes mocktail costs just as much a cocktail and I’m always surprised
Reminds me of this post on threads that I laugh at ALL the time. -m
https://www.threads.com/@teewatterss/post/C7KiUCHPFeK?xmt=AQF0Zt4hmTCcU1GjmmXqpM9hfCuSC7nYvHj0hldAgJCTLw
Very accurate!
Right? I’ve tried some “alcohol replacement drinks” and it’s the same thing.
So I think I have a spiritual gift of companionship. I am a very good friend and I can be an uplifting, gentle presence to be around. People have told me for over a decade that they just want to carry me around in their pocket. I don’t want to be paid to do chaplaincy (except like by an organization). Ideally, honestly, I would love it if people helped provide for my needs even in a physical way. Not like donating to a church… but like helping me get groceries and helping me live my life. I don’t know if that makes sense. Like in Cambodia I learned that some Buddhist monks can’t make their own food or own things… but the community around them leaves food outside, knowing they will come and eat it. I’m curious about what that sort of model would look like for spiritual and other caregivers in the US.