Re: federalism and the vertical separation of powers between states and the federal government
I know I'm late in getting this thought out, but I needed to sit with it a little longer. I am not seeing a clear shift of authority to the states. As reported at the National Conference of State Legislatures, state legislatures find themselves frustrated with the lack of communication and collaboration with the federal government, most notably through the passage of HR 1. And HR 1 is a mechanism of control over the states. I hear this from my colleagues in other state facing organizations.
What I see is a consistent thread of authoritarian consolidation of power and decimation of the federal governments role in public service. What we're consistently seeing (from the feds) is that states should be extenders of federal partisan, military and enforcement authority and simultaneously fill the gaps in public services that the federal government is no longer willing to provide in the public interest (e.g. disaster relief, reliable national data, preservation of minority right, etc.).
At the same time, this is all occurring while the federal government is decimating its contributions to state budgets and economies to effect public policy. This undermines the budgetary stability the states need to respond and fill the increasingly gaping chasms left by the federal government.
As an NC resident who lost Jeff Jackson as her congress person last year due to gerrymandered new districts drawn in 2023, this issue is enar and dear to my heart.
What NC did (and they're still doing) wrote the playbook for TX and other states. If NC had kept theines as they were, there's a very good chance Democrats would control the house.
I think I've shared her name before, but I'd encourage your team to check out Kate Barr from Kate Barr Can't Win. She ran for an extremely gerrymandered state seat here last year to bring attention to this issue. She's doing incredible work across the state and she's been gaining national attention as well. I admire her so much!
Late to this convo because was on vacay so just listened to the episode - so I’m only going to comment about the party. I was tired of my husband never getting the hint and throwing me a surprise party so last year for my 50th i said “f-it” and I threw myself a bash. Live band because i always regretted not having a live band at our wedding, a taylor swift drag queen because OF COURSE!! And had it catered so I didn’t have to do a damn thing but show up, look good and dance my ass off. It was the best. I don’t regret a penny spent and am already thinking about what I’m gonna do for my 60th.
Long time listener and fan of the show here. To Sarah's comment about "not feel like I'm living in Nazi Germany," what about doing an episode with an expert on the history of fascism? If "Nazi Germany" feels like an over-tired comparison, it might help to better understand what Nazi Germany was actually like and how it came to be, in addition to other fascist and authoritarian regimes.
Having just finished Jason Stanley's "How Fascism Works," I'm struck by the disturbing parallels to today, e.g. mythologizing the past (see the Smithsonian "review"), creating "unreality" (e.g. installing a today to lead the Board of Labor Statistics), etc. This kind of expert could also talk about proactive steps that citizens can take to stop the slide toward illiberalism. I understand and respect the desire to take care of yourself and not freak out unduly about every development but think a better understanding of fascism/right-wing authoritarianism can help us discern what, in fact, we should freak out about.
I agree, Hana, and I am personally focusing on learning more from historians/experts. I appreciated this woman’s post today. “Never wait until it’s your turn to be afraid.” My grandma was a child in Nazi-Occupied Norway. I’m not freaking out. I feel clear-eyed and resolute that I have a responsibility to stand up for democracy and for humans to be treated with dignity.
I think this is a fair question that lots of people have. So, I will let Sarah and Beth respond on the air when and how they choose, but I have been noodling on this all week because you are not alone in this comment/feeling.
*An Authoritarian Leader is not the Same as an Authoritarian State*
Donald Trump is an authoritarian leader in our democratic system, and there's a lot of strain and tension with that right now. I think Anne Applebaum and The Atlantic have done some really good writing about Türkiye (and, honestly, Venezuela, Mexico, Brazil, India) - other countries that have slipped into or are flirting with strongman leadership right now that I think are better comparisons than Nazi Germany. And, it's important to remember that our fate is not decided yet. I may eat these words, but I do not think that Donald Trump is going to run for a third term, and even if he does he is old and not in great health. He won't be a dictator very long and the Republican Party does not have a plan B. It is a cult of personality, and when he's out or not on the ballot, they don't have the same kind of reach that they do when he is.
*Why We Are Not Freaking Out at the Moment*
I think the reason you don't hear Sarah and Beth freaking out about fascism is that we are still here....producing episodes twice a week. So...it's objectively not fascism yet.
We criticize the administration on the air with advertisers on our podcast. We are not losing advertisers. We are not getting censored. You don't have to do anything special or log into a VPN or the dark web to hear our words. Sarah and Beth are not in hiding.
We are (in my humble and totally biased opinion) particularly dangerous to this administration because we have a lot of Republican listeners and moderate takes, which - research tells us - is much more persuasive to people who may have voted for the current administration than other approaches.
*Why are Other People Calling It Fascism?*
Extreme language and rhetoric (research tells us) is great for getting people out to a protest, entrenching your side, raising money (which are important and worthy goals in this season), but that's not what we're doing at Pantsuit Politics.
We feel like our strengths and our work in this season is to reach into the middle and sustain our community for the long work of better governance and democracy. (I'm thinking the right phrase for this work is Slow Activism, and I would love for that to catch on).
*We're in a Fascism Watch*
It's hurricane season where I live, so we get a lot of PSAs about the difference between a tropical storm watch and a warning, and these spaghetti models showing all the paths that a storm rolling off the coast of Africa can take, and if we borrow this language for our political situation right now, I would say there is fascism depression in the middle of the Atlantic. We don't know where it's headed, how strong it will get, or what its path will be. We're keeping watch. But we're also not going to board up our houses yet.
It's not that you shouldn't do what you can to prepare: I think there's some metaphors about what hurricane windows, snacks, and batteries are that I could totally take too far. BUT what I'll stick with today is this lovely reflection from our Reimagining Citizenship Series by Vanessa Zoltan about Chit-Chatting to Fight Fascism
Thanks for this, Maggie. Just to clarify (and in case this interests Sarah and Beth!) "How Fascism Works" spends a great deal of time on contemporary Hungary, Turkiye, and Poland in particular. I do wish the book had a clearer definition of "right-wing illiberalism" vs. full-on fascism, but a whole range of countries and regimes are discussed there. On the whole, would recommend to anyone interested in the topic!
I would love to know how Sara and Beth get so many people on board to do these fun parties. I feel like so many of my friendships have not gotten to that space of people wanting to get back together. There is so much canceling, so much I need to stay home tonight and when we do get together it’s just catch up. And I really believe friendships are built of shared experiences and memories not just constantly catching up.
Fervent cosign to "I really believe friendships are built of shared experiences and memories not just constantly catching up."
I am frustrated by how many adult friendships seem to consist of grabbing a coffee and hearing about what each other have been up to, rather than actually getting up to something together!
I've been thing a lot about this one. The biggest concern I have is that we're tampering with some things that feel fundamental to me to supporting the systems that we rely on. For example, there's a lot going on with changing how we track data (around health, human rights, the economy, etc). Many of our systems depend on valid data to run as intended. It seems to me like the next gen of the disinformation issue, but perhaps more damaging to core systems. I'd love someday to hear Beth's perspective on this so that I better understanding her faith in our systems holding (I'd really love to share in that faith).
My two cents - Sarah and Beth have to take care of themselves and manage this space in a way that allows them to flourish personally and professionally. From my vantage point, 2025 is worse than I hoped it would be and it sounds dangerously naive to think otherwise - a lot that is being dismantled cannot easily be rebuilt, and careers and lives are suffering/ending now. We are changing what it is to be a civil servant and in the military and this isn’t easy to shift either - integrity is hard to build once the partisanship is rife. However, there is also fearmongering too even from sources I have trusted. I don’t have the bandwidth - as they say - for every indignation. Not everything is of equal importance. For Christians, I’d like to recommend the After Party and Redeeming Babel. My best advice from that has been to speak truth to your own side. One thing I’d love to see this podcast do - in alignment with their goals - is a Profiles in Courage approach - highlighting those on both sides of the aisle who with integrity, stand up to their own side, change their mind, or take an unpopular stance and seek to persuade. Brief profiles :-) When we can’t find contemporary examples, use historical ones. Let’s highlight the patriotic virtues!
“We are changing what it is to be a civil servant and in the military…”.
Yes!!! I’m a civil servant and this is so true, and I feel like I’m screaming into the void. The damage being done to the very fundamental structures of how our government functions literally takes my breath away - and people don’t have any idea or don’t care. And frankly - they’ll probably never know, because how do you measure a less accurate hurricane forecast or more risky space missions or delayed medical cures or less accurate economic data or fewer high value tax audits or… on and on and on… in ways that are meaningful for most people? But the expertise and human capital that have left from my workplace in the last few months is truly scary.
This is what was painful to me about their comment that this year isn't that bad. So much of it isn't evident but it is dismantling things that we can't easily rebuild. Everything from jobs eliminated (and you can't just easily rehire back) to what it means to have the job has changed to people are being asked to do and required to do things they were never asked to do. And this changes what our government is.
Beth- I’m in the 99% who disagree with you too but I’m cheering for you to stand by your beliefs.
10ish years ago I knocked doors to get people to sign an initiative for a citizen lead redistricting commission. I want desperately to believe in good governance. I have been involved in local government all my adult life. The initiative passed but it could only recommend fair maps. Last redistricting here in Utah all the maps were ignored and the super majority republicans gerrymandered to get rid of the one Rep who was a D and several state house D members. For right now I have lost hope in good government. I still cast my ballot yesterday in our mayoral primary…but I honestly don’t know that either candidate will be substantially different.
My loss of hope rests in my loss of hope in the very people you are encouraging us to find and persuade. I don’t quite believe it’s possible any more. My siblings and parents all voted for Trump…they are not stupid or evil. I have fought hard to love them more than the grief I feel over this current situation.
They voted for Trump for three basic reasons. Group one true believers and they live in a world where our facts are so different we cannot and do not discuss current event or politics at all.
Second group: low information voters. Hate the news hate politics, don’t follow current events at all. When they tune in to vote they follow the advice and information of group one they get a week in advance. They will not discuss politics. Their key issues are they still vote based on are abortion and gun rights.
Group three…educated, informed, don’t like Trump. Willing to discuss all issues. These are the people I would need to influence. In the last election, one didn’t vote (said all candidates are all the same in the end). One protest voted (couldn’t bring himself to vote for H.). One skipped the presidential race on the ballot. There is the drip drip of information or slurs or prejudice and they couldn’t vote for a democrat at the national level. I know I am just one person and one family. But the sides are so entrenched and information is so inconsistent and truth seems lost between the two side. Maybe I am still in a place of grief for my country… but I’m not able to believe in persuadable voters and good governance arguments right now. I’m glad you still can
After reading all the pushback, I listened again, having been unbothered by what I heard.
Inasmuch as I don't find the podcast to be prescriptive, I appreciated the perspectives. Specifically regarding the TX Dems fleeing the state, everything old is new again. It's not the first time and it won't be the last. I've been thinking a lot about Sarah's comments a couple of weeks ago about how she doesn't need the internet to tell her what's in her heart and for me, this is one of those situations that falls into the bucket of "whyaren'tyoumoreoutragedpostingaboutitandtellingeveryonewhyitssoterribleanduseyourprivilegeandplatformwhatareyouevendoingsquaderingthisopportunitytomakeadifference." Texas has been gerrymandered all to hell for most of my lifetime. I've spent countless hours talking to real Texans about the ways their vote could make a change and largely they are unmotivated to do anything because they don't think it matters. You don't even have to register to vote in a primary; there is literally nothing stopping the Dems en masse from flooding the polls and making changes. Hell, run as Republicans. (I pause here to bemoan a lack of imagination.)
...
Anyway, everything is bigger in Texas and that includes the political fighting. The Dems will come back just like last time and the GOP will get their way just like last time. The "stunt" will be admired by some and criticized by others and life will go on. (I pause here to point out that for a few decades, the state was actually run by Bob Bullock, the Democrat lieutenant governor of Texas. The bipartisan nature of the state fell to the same GOP BS that led to the current administration by way of Rick Perry. I still regret my vote that year because I helped split the vote.)
...
I like that comment about floor and ceiling. Y'all. There is a reason the GOP uses scare tactics around community organizing. GET INVOLVED IN YOUR COMMUNITY. If there's no apparent group already in place, create one. You will feel better and less anxious when you feel you have more control and local control starts in your neighborhood.
This. I think one of my biggest "in my 40s" life lessons has been, it's unreasonable to expect that people will match your emotions. There are so many emotions, and so many factors that contribute to any one person's feelings and reactions at any given moment in time. Honestly seeing this play out online has been helpful in noticing when I do it in real life.
About being here and ready to party in 2025…..I relate to that because my Covid baby is ready to start kindergarten, it’s a real sense of normalcy, especially in hindsight when you thought, will life ever be “normal” again….im ready to make plans 🩷
I’ve been thinking of the proper way to say this but, overall I am here for the tone shift and I think that’s because I’ve really settled into the duality way of thinking. Horrible things have happened and are happening this year. Every day I feel some level of horror, anger, despair at this administration and what is happening in the world. At the same time, I’ve been experiencing the joy of growing new life in my body and preparing for the expanding of my family. We’ve planted a garden that has flourished. My husband has seen growth in his career and I’ve had friendships grow. Fires have burned in my state. Water has poured down. My state government has provided extra funding for our natural spaces while the federal government has worked to dismantle it. All this to say - horrors abound and joy abounds. This is the way of the world, it always has been and always will be true.
This doesn’t mean we can just stick our heads in the ground and ignore what is happening. But viewing this tone shift as “toxic positivity” is not right to me. How are we supposed to adequately fight against evil and injustice if we are stuck in the darkness of its effects? How is actual change supposed to happen if we just give in and lower our standards of responding/behaving?
I connect with how Sarah and Beth have been approaching this second Trump administration because the first one almost destroyed me in so many ways. I refuse to let that happen again. We can call a spade a spade without getting trapped in the hole it digs.
Totally agree. They are meeting the moment for me. This is exactly what I needed for this second term. And for what it's worth, I'm employed by a federal grant that got axed overnight. My work and livelihood has been a chaotic mindf*** rollercoaster since April.
I remember someone asking Jason Kander how he can possibly stay hopeful with everything going on around us. He named some more tangible things he is holding onto, but also said, "but also, what's the alternative?" I think about that a lot.
Re: the value of wishpainting on the canvas of democracy...
I feel a tension in myself in this episode in grappling with naming and voicing what I want politics to be (and what I hear Beth articulating) and grappling with the reality of what it is and what the moment demands of us (which is what I think the Texas Dems are doing).
There is no progress without vision, without imagination about how things could be better. But if nothing gets done or responds to the reality of the moment effectively, then what is the point? I wonder if there is a practical, effective response to the blatant, minoritarian power grab in Texas that is capable of aligning with a vision of what our democracy should be. I think it looks like what the Texas Dems are doing right now.
We do need both, don't we? And I think not all of us need to be on board for every piece of it. I can be uncomfortable with some of the tactics that violate norms while acknowledging that maybe there's a time for it, even if my specific work colors inside the lines more. We need some people with their hair on fire about some things, sounding the alarm, and others who just keep their heads down and stay calm (I'm remembering the Keep Calm and Carry On motto).
Re: redistricting and *gestures wildly* all of this...
I would be interested in hearing more from you both on how you are engaging with the authoritarianism of it all.
Where I struggle the most with this take - and some of your others related to ICE and the National Guard in DC - is that it seems blind to the reality that what is happening is an unchecked consolidation of power in increasingly authoritarian and minoritarian ways that undermine our existence as a democracy and the ability for policy discussions to take place. And that does not have a parallel to Trump 1.0 even though these types of machinations are not new.
What I hear in this podcast that I think sits the least comfortably with me is a desire to not overreact the way we did to Trump 1.0. And I hear that coming at the expense of - what I perceive to be - reality of the stress our democracy is under.
I wonder if you are thinking about that stress differently than I am.
This. You put my thoughts into words perfectly. It’s not that I want to revel in the misery… it’s that the bigger picture seems to be lost when you focus so much on not overreacting. I’d love them to see some of the white boarding they talked about a few months ago, but in the service of rising authoritarianism.
As a native Texan, I view what the Texas Democrats are doing very differently from a lot of Democrats. Watching everything unfold after Trump made the call to Abbott and the Democrats response to it has been infuriating to me. Running to a blue state and begging for help is not what I wanted to see.
This may sound crazy, but the Texas Democrats should have let our Governor Abbott do what he wanted to do (and what Trump wanted him to do). This would have given the Democrats in Texas a chance to point at the GOP and call them cheaters. I wanted to see the Texas Democrats argue with the Texas GOP on our ground, in our capital, in our state. I didn't want to see Texans having a press conference in Chicago. I adore Pritzker but this is not his fight.
There is a misunderstanding that Texas is "red state dreaming of being a blue state" the Democrats have about Texas. The reality is Texas is more purple with a lot of registered voters who do not vote. There is voter suppression but it's not a "hair on fire" issue that it is made out to be. For the most part, it's easy to vote in Texas if you follow the Texas laws. I know several people who live in "voter suppressed" areas that say it's easy to vote. Gerrymandering is a big issue in Texas, but Texans don't lose sleep over it, and it's not why registered voters don't show up to vote either. It's the Democrats themselves and the candidates that run in Texas. Texas Democrats leaving proved what many in Texas don't like about Democrats and how they. Also, I don't believe it will speak to the non-voters or Independents that need to be won over in Texas.
Also, there is another reality about Texas that I don't feel many on the outside understand. Texas has been GOP controlled since George W. Bush was Governor. That almost 30 years.
Many Texans don't want to surrender Texas to Democrats or the Democratic Party, especially now after seeing how poorly the Biden Administration handled the border, immigration, the concerns' about inflation, and the economy. Many would rather vote red or not vote to avoid that happening. I don't believe in my gut the gerrymandering fight will change any of that now.
Of course, I could be completely wrong about my states and my fellow Texans and I will be happily admit I am wrong. But living here my whole life, I don't think I am on this issue.
As an IL citizen, though I don’t know a lot of specifics about TX politics outside of this current standoff, I find it difficult to completely trust the motives of these legislators, based on who they’ve chosen to associate with. They fled to IL to be sheltered by the Democrats here, who have created ridiculously gerrymandered districts, and for decades had their noses firmly planted in the ass of their wildly corrupt leader Mike Madigan. They are being supported by our governor, who recently went on Colbert talking about the TX issue, while also laughing about the fact that his own state’s district map (drawn & gerrymandered by his party) looks like it was done by kindergarteners. Lovely.
I find the response to this episode and the "tone shift" at Pantsuit Politics really interesting, and it's certainly causing me to question my own reaction to things.
2024 was an extremely difficult year for me personally, and 2025 has actually been better in some ways. A lot of the stressors in my personal life aren't factors in my day-to-day life anymore. Plus, I went on anti-anxiety meds for the first time last year and learned a lot of coping strategies in therapy. So I'm generally a more upbeat person than I was last year.
One of my coping strategies is avoiding doom looping. I can acknowledge something is terrible and scary, figure out what (if anything) I can or should do about it, and then set it aside. A lot of Sarah and Beth's processing feels like that to me.
At the same time, I do worry that acknowledging this strategy is a way of putting my head in the sand, and I recognize that sometimes there's a real reason for anxiety. I worry about becoming apathetic or self-focused. But I also know that giving in to the anxiety isn't necessarily helpful. I decided at the start of this administration that Trump couldn't have my whole mind, and I'm sticking to that. But at what point does that turn into selfishness?
I also hear Sarah and Beth saying that this will pass. And I agree with that. But the trouble is that we don't know how bad it will get in the meantime.
I think that it's useful to note that a lot of this pushback came from instagram and I think that the algorithms are objectively bad for us. I also think that people who study human behavior, happiness, and that kind of thing cofirm with data what you are saying: people who are happy are more engaged. People who can compartmentalize and work within their circle of influence have more meaning in their lives and are less burned out. People who are happy donate more money to charitable causes, volunteer, and have deep relationships (there may be a chicken and egg thing here, so it's totally okay to fake it til you make it). So, I really think that the best science we have backs up Sarah and Beth (and it sounds like your) approach. We can only be outraged for so long before we give ourselves serious health problems. -Maggie
I think it’s very interesting that you mentioned the algorithm on insta as a cause to the pushback. Most of the comments I read were people who were long time followers and subscribers. I suppose that’s hard to verify but doesn’t seem algorithm driven.
I didn't mean to imply that they weren't real people who had listened to the show.
Just that...I know from our data that most of the people who follow us on Instagram almost never see anything we post or say online because the Instagram algorithm deprioritizes political content, but when one person posted a negative comment, that gave the algorithm a certain kind of information and fed more of that type of engagement.
It told the algorithm, "Oh, you follow Pantsuit Politics and you engage with content about the genocide in Gaza, here's something that'll make you really mad," because the algorithm knows that when these users are good and mad, they stay on the app longer and see more ads." (I'm not saying that's exactly the people who saw that post or that their concerns, feedback and feelings are not valid, but...I did recognize some of the user names). -Maggie
Re: federalism and the vertical separation of powers between states and the federal government
I know I'm late in getting this thought out, but I needed to sit with it a little longer. I am not seeing a clear shift of authority to the states. As reported at the National Conference of State Legislatures, state legislatures find themselves frustrated with the lack of communication and collaboration with the federal government, most notably through the passage of HR 1. And HR 1 is a mechanism of control over the states. I hear this from my colleagues in other state facing organizations.
What I see is a consistent thread of authoritarian consolidation of power and decimation of the federal governments role in public service. What we're consistently seeing (from the feds) is that states should be extenders of federal partisan, military and enforcement authority and simultaneously fill the gaps in public services that the federal government is no longer willing to provide in the public interest (e.g. disaster relief, reliable national data, preservation of minority right, etc.).
At the same time, this is all occurring while the federal government is decimating its contributions to state budgets and economies to effect public policy. This undermines the budgetary stability the states need to respond and fill the increasingly gaping chasms left by the federal government.
As an NC resident who lost Jeff Jackson as her congress person last year due to gerrymandered new districts drawn in 2023, this issue is enar and dear to my heart.
What NC did (and they're still doing) wrote the playbook for TX and other states. If NC had kept theines as they were, there's a very good chance Democrats would control the house.
I think I've shared her name before, but I'd encourage your team to check out Kate Barr from Kate Barr Can't Win. She ran for an extremely gerrymandered state seat here last year to bring attention to this issue. She's doing incredible work across the state and she's been gaining national attention as well. I admire her so much!
https://www.instagram.com/katebarrcantwin?igsh=MnpkaXY3eTZjanR0
Late to this convo because was on vacay so just listened to the episode - so I’m only going to comment about the party. I was tired of my husband never getting the hint and throwing me a surprise party so last year for my 50th i said “f-it” and I threw myself a bash. Live band because i always regretted not having a live band at our wedding, a taylor swift drag queen because OF COURSE!! And had it catered so I didn’t have to do a damn thing but show up, look good and dance my ass off. It was the best. I don’t regret a penny spent and am already thinking about what I’m gonna do for my 60th.
Long time listener and fan of the show here. To Sarah's comment about "not feel like I'm living in Nazi Germany," what about doing an episode with an expert on the history of fascism? If "Nazi Germany" feels like an over-tired comparison, it might help to better understand what Nazi Germany was actually like and how it came to be, in addition to other fascist and authoritarian regimes.
Having just finished Jason Stanley's "How Fascism Works," I'm struck by the disturbing parallels to today, e.g. mythologizing the past (see the Smithsonian "review"), creating "unreality" (e.g. installing a today to lead the Board of Labor Statistics), etc. This kind of expert could also talk about proactive steps that citizens can take to stop the slide toward illiberalism. I understand and respect the desire to take care of yourself and not freak out unduly about every development but think a better understanding of fascism/right-wing authoritarianism can help us discern what, in fact, we should freak out about.
https://www.instagram.com/reel/DNgFpwOsWhj/?igsh=MTNjeXd0N3UyaHgzeg==
I agree, Hana, and I am personally focusing on learning more from historians/experts. I appreciated this woman’s post today. “Never wait until it’s your turn to be afraid.” My grandma was a child in Nazi-Occupied Norway. I’m not freaking out. I feel clear-eyed and resolute that I have a responsibility to stand up for democracy and for humans to be treated with dignity.
I think this is a fair question that lots of people have. So, I will let Sarah and Beth respond on the air when and how they choose, but I have been noodling on this all week because you are not alone in this comment/feeling.
*An Authoritarian Leader is not the Same as an Authoritarian State*
Donald Trump is an authoritarian leader in our democratic system, and there's a lot of strain and tension with that right now. I think Anne Applebaum and The Atlantic have done some really good writing about Türkiye (and, honestly, Venezuela, Mexico, Brazil, India) - other countries that have slipped into or are flirting with strongman leadership right now that I think are better comparisons than Nazi Germany. And, it's important to remember that our fate is not decided yet. I may eat these words, but I do not think that Donald Trump is going to run for a third term, and even if he does he is old and not in great health. He won't be a dictator very long and the Republican Party does not have a plan B. It is a cult of personality, and when he's out or not on the ballot, they don't have the same kind of reach that they do when he is.
*Why We Are Not Freaking Out at the Moment*
I think the reason you don't hear Sarah and Beth freaking out about fascism is that we are still here....producing episodes twice a week. So...it's objectively not fascism yet.
We criticize the administration on the air with advertisers on our podcast. We are not losing advertisers. We are not getting censored. You don't have to do anything special or log into a VPN or the dark web to hear our words. Sarah and Beth are not in hiding.
We are (in my humble and totally biased opinion) particularly dangerous to this administration because we have a lot of Republican listeners and moderate takes, which - research tells us - is much more persuasive to people who may have voted for the current administration than other approaches.
*Why are Other People Calling It Fascism?*
Extreme language and rhetoric (research tells us) is great for getting people out to a protest, entrenching your side, raising money (which are important and worthy goals in this season), but that's not what we're doing at Pantsuit Politics.
We feel like our strengths and our work in this season is to reach into the middle and sustain our community for the long work of better governance and democracy. (I'm thinking the right phrase for this work is Slow Activism, and I would love for that to catch on).
*We're in a Fascism Watch*
It's hurricane season where I live, so we get a lot of PSAs about the difference between a tropical storm watch and a warning, and these spaghetti models showing all the paths that a storm rolling off the coast of Africa can take, and if we borrow this language for our political situation right now, I would say there is fascism depression in the middle of the Atlantic. We don't know where it's headed, how strong it will get, or what its path will be. We're keeping watch. But we're also not going to board up our houses yet.
It's not that you shouldn't do what you can to prepare: I think there's some metaphors about what hurricane windows, snacks, and batteries are that I could totally take too far. BUT what I'll stick with today is this lovely reflection from our Reimagining Citizenship Series by Vanessa Zoltan about Chit-Chatting to Fight Fascism
https://www.pantsuitpoliticsshow.com/p/chit-chat-to-fight-fascism?r=2cbqu4&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=web&showWelcomeOnShare=false
Thanks for this, Maggie. Just to clarify (and in case this interests Sarah and Beth!) "How Fascism Works" spends a great deal of time on contemporary Hungary, Turkiye, and Poland in particular. I do wish the book had a clearer definition of "right-wing illiberalism" vs. full-on fascism, but a whole range of countries and regimes are discussed there. On the whole, would recommend to anyone interested in the topic!
That would be an awesome episode!
Well said. Would love to have an episode centered on this.
I would love to know how Sara and Beth get so many people on board to do these fun parties. I feel like so many of my friendships have not gotten to that space of people wanting to get back together. There is so much canceling, so much I need to stay home tonight and when we do get together it’s just catch up. And I really believe friendships are built of shared experiences and memories not just constantly catching up.
Fervent cosign to "I really believe friendships are built of shared experiences and memories not just constantly catching up."
I am frustrated by how many adult friendships seem to consist of grabbing a coffee and hearing about what each other have been up to, rather than actually getting up to something together!
Yes! I hate it, it doesn’t feel like a deep meaningful thing
I've been thing a lot about this one. The biggest concern I have is that we're tampering with some things that feel fundamental to me to supporting the systems that we rely on. For example, there's a lot going on with changing how we track data (around health, human rights, the economy, etc). Many of our systems depend on valid data to run as intended. It seems to me like the next gen of the disinformation issue, but perhaps more damaging to core systems. I'd love someday to hear Beth's perspective on this so that I better understanding her faith in our systems holding (I'd really love to share in that faith).
My two cents - Sarah and Beth have to take care of themselves and manage this space in a way that allows them to flourish personally and professionally. From my vantage point, 2025 is worse than I hoped it would be and it sounds dangerously naive to think otherwise - a lot that is being dismantled cannot easily be rebuilt, and careers and lives are suffering/ending now. We are changing what it is to be a civil servant and in the military and this isn’t easy to shift either - integrity is hard to build once the partisanship is rife. However, there is also fearmongering too even from sources I have trusted. I don’t have the bandwidth - as they say - for every indignation. Not everything is of equal importance. For Christians, I’d like to recommend the After Party and Redeeming Babel. My best advice from that has been to speak truth to your own side. One thing I’d love to see this podcast do - in alignment with their goals - is a Profiles in Courage approach - highlighting those on both sides of the aisle who with integrity, stand up to their own side, change their mind, or take an unpopular stance and seek to persuade. Brief profiles :-) When we can’t find contemporary examples, use historical ones. Let’s highlight the patriotic virtues!
“We are changing what it is to be a civil servant and in the military…”.
Yes!!! I’m a civil servant and this is so true, and I feel like I’m screaming into the void. The damage being done to the very fundamental structures of how our government functions literally takes my breath away - and people don’t have any idea or don’t care. And frankly - they’ll probably never know, because how do you measure a less accurate hurricane forecast or more risky space missions or delayed medical cures or less accurate economic data or fewer high value tax audits or… on and on and on… in ways that are meaningful for most people? But the expertise and human capital that have left from my workplace in the last few months is truly scary.
This is what was painful to me about their comment that this year isn't that bad. So much of it isn't evident but it is dismantling things that we can't easily rebuild. Everything from jobs eliminated (and you can't just easily rehire back) to what it means to have the job has changed to people are being asked to do and required to do things they were never asked to do. And this changes what our government is.
Beth- I’m in the 99% who disagree with you too but I’m cheering for you to stand by your beliefs.
10ish years ago I knocked doors to get people to sign an initiative for a citizen lead redistricting commission. I want desperately to believe in good governance. I have been involved in local government all my adult life. The initiative passed but it could only recommend fair maps. Last redistricting here in Utah all the maps were ignored and the super majority republicans gerrymandered to get rid of the one Rep who was a D and several state house D members. For right now I have lost hope in good government. I still cast my ballot yesterday in our mayoral primary…but I honestly don’t know that either candidate will be substantially different.
My loss of hope rests in my loss of hope in the very people you are encouraging us to find and persuade. I don’t quite believe it’s possible any more. My siblings and parents all voted for Trump…they are not stupid or evil. I have fought hard to love them more than the grief I feel over this current situation.
They voted for Trump for three basic reasons. Group one true believers and they live in a world where our facts are so different we cannot and do not discuss current event or politics at all.
Second group: low information voters. Hate the news hate politics, don’t follow current events at all. When they tune in to vote they follow the advice and information of group one they get a week in advance. They will not discuss politics. Their key issues are they still vote based on are abortion and gun rights.
Group three…educated, informed, don’t like Trump. Willing to discuss all issues. These are the people I would need to influence. In the last election, one didn’t vote (said all candidates are all the same in the end). One protest voted (couldn’t bring himself to vote for H.). One skipped the presidential race on the ballot. There is the drip drip of information or slurs or prejudice and they couldn’t vote for a democrat at the national level. I know I am just one person and one family. But the sides are so entrenched and information is so inconsistent and truth seems lost between the two side. Maybe I am still in a place of grief for my country… but I’m not able to believe in persuadable voters and good governance arguments right now. I’m glad you still can
After reading all the pushback, I listened again, having been unbothered by what I heard.
Inasmuch as I don't find the podcast to be prescriptive, I appreciated the perspectives. Specifically regarding the TX Dems fleeing the state, everything old is new again. It's not the first time and it won't be the last. I've been thinking a lot about Sarah's comments a couple of weeks ago about how she doesn't need the internet to tell her what's in her heart and for me, this is one of those situations that falls into the bucket of "whyaren'tyoumoreoutragedpostingaboutitandtellingeveryonewhyitssoterribleanduseyourprivilegeandplatformwhatareyouevendoingsquaderingthisopportunitytomakeadifference." Texas has been gerrymandered all to hell for most of my lifetime. I've spent countless hours talking to real Texans about the ways their vote could make a change and largely they are unmotivated to do anything because they don't think it matters. You don't even have to register to vote in a primary; there is literally nothing stopping the Dems en masse from flooding the polls and making changes. Hell, run as Republicans. (I pause here to bemoan a lack of imagination.)
...
Anyway, everything is bigger in Texas and that includes the political fighting. The Dems will come back just like last time and the GOP will get their way just like last time. The "stunt" will be admired by some and criticized by others and life will go on. (I pause here to point out that for a few decades, the state was actually run by Bob Bullock, the Democrat lieutenant governor of Texas. The bipartisan nature of the state fell to the same GOP BS that led to the current administration by way of Rick Perry. I still regret my vote that year because I helped split the vote.)
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I like that comment about floor and ceiling. Y'all. There is a reason the GOP uses scare tactics around community organizing. GET INVOLVED IN YOUR COMMUNITY. If there's no apparent group already in place, create one. You will feel better and less anxious when you feel you have more control and local control starts in your neighborhood.
"whyaren'tyoumoreoutragedpostingaboutitandtellingeveryonewhyitssoterribleanduseyourprivilegeandplatformwhatareyouevendoingsquaderingthisopportunitytomakeadifference."
This. I think one of my biggest "in my 40s" life lessons has been, it's unreasonable to expect that people will match your emotions. There are so many emotions, and so many factors that contribute to any one person's feelings and reactions at any given moment in time. Honestly seeing this play out online has been helpful in noticing when I do it in real life.
About being here and ready to party in 2025…..I relate to that because my Covid baby is ready to start kindergarten, it’s a real sense of normalcy, especially in hindsight when you thought, will life ever be “normal” again….im ready to make plans 🩷
I’ve been thinking of the proper way to say this but, overall I am here for the tone shift and I think that’s because I’ve really settled into the duality way of thinking. Horrible things have happened and are happening this year. Every day I feel some level of horror, anger, despair at this administration and what is happening in the world. At the same time, I’ve been experiencing the joy of growing new life in my body and preparing for the expanding of my family. We’ve planted a garden that has flourished. My husband has seen growth in his career and I’ve had friendships grow. Fires have burned in my state. Water has poured down. My state government has provided extra funding for our natural spaces while the federal government has worked to dismantle it. All this to say - horrors abound and joy abounds. This is the way of the world, it always has been and always will be true.
This doesn’t mean we can just stick our heads in the ground and ignore what is happening. But viewing this tone shift as “toxic positivity” is not right to me. How are we supposed to adequately fight against evil and injustice if we are stuck in the darkness of its effects? How is actual change supposed to happen if we just give in and lower our standards of responding/behaving?
I connect with how Sarah and Beth have been approaching this second Trump administration because the first one almost destroyed me in so many ways. I refuse to let that happen again. We can call a spade a spade without getting trapped in the hole it digs.
Totally agree. They are meeting the moment for me. This is exactly what I needed for this second term. And for what it's worth, I'm employed by a federal grant that got axed overnight. My work and livelihood has been a chaotic mindf*** rollercoaster since April.
I remember someone asking Jason Kander how he can possibly stay hopeful with everything going on around us. He named some more tangible things he is holding onto, but also said, "but also, what's the alternative?" I think about that a lot.
Ugh that sucks about your work, I have a few friends that have also been impacted in that way. Hope you’re able to find a way forward.
Thanks for sharing that insight from Jason Kander - it hits home completely.
Re: the value of wishpainting on the canvas of democracy...
I feel a tension in myself in this episode in grappling with naming and voicing what I want politics to be (and what I hear Beth articulating) and grappling with the reality of what it is and what the moment demands of us (which is what I think the Texas Dems are doing).
There is no progress without vision, without imagination about how things could be better. But if nothing gets done or responds to the reality of the moment effectively, then what is the point? I wonder if there is a practical, effective response to the blatant, minoritarian power grab in Texas that is capable of aligning with a vision of what our democracy should be. I think it looks like what the Texas Dems are doing right now.
We do need both, don't we? And I think not all of us need to be on board for every piece of it. I can be uncomfortable with some of the tactics that violate norms while acknowledging that maybe there's a time for it, even if my specific work colors inside the lines more. We need some people with their hair on fire about some things, sounding the alarm, and others who just keep their heads down and stay calm (I'm remembering the Keep Calm and Carry On motto).
Re: redistricting and *gestures wildly* all of this...
I would be interested in hearing more from you both on how you are engaging with the authoritarianism of it all.
Where I struggle the most with this take - and some of your others related to ICE and the National Guard in DC - is that it seems blind to the reality that what is happening is an unchecked consolidation of power in increasingly authoritarian and minoritarian ways that undermine our existence as a democracy and the ability for policy discussions to take place. And that does not have a parallel to Trump 1.0 even though these types of machinations are not new.
What I hear in this podcast that I think sits the least comfortably with me is a desire to not overreact the way we did to Trump 1.0. And I hear that coming at the expense of - what I perceive to be - reality of the stress our democracy is under.
I wonder if you are thinking about that stress differently than I am.
YES! This. Thank you.
This. You put my thoughts into words perfectly. It’s not that I want to revel in the misery… it’s that the bigger picture seems to be lost when you focus so much on not overreacting. I’d love them to see some of the white boarding they talked about a few months ago, but in the service of rising authoritarianism.
THIS! You pulled the thought out of my brain and articulated it so perfectly!
As a native Texan, I view what the Texas Democrats are doing very differently from a lot of Democrats. Watching everything unfold after Trump made the call to Abbott and the Democrats response to it has been infuriating to me. Running to a blue state and begging for help is not what I wanted to see.
This may sound crazy, but the Texas Democrats should have let our Governor Abbott do what he wanted to do (and what Trump wanted him to do). This would have given the Democrats in Texas a chance to point at the GOP and call them cheaters. I wanted to see the Texas Democrats argue with the Texas GOP on our ground, in our capital, in our state. I didn't want to see Texans having a press conference in Chicago. I adore Pritzker but this is not his fight.
There is a misunderstanding that Texas is "red state dreaming of being a blue state" the Democrats have about Texas. The reality is Texas is more purple with a lot of registered voters who do not vote. There is voter suppression but it's not a "hair on fire" issue that it is made out to be. For the most part, it's easy to vote in Texas if you follow the Texas laws. I know several people who live in "voter suppressed" areas that say it's easy to vote. Gerrymandering is a big issue in Texas, but Texans don't lose sleep over it, and it's not why registered voters don't show up to vote either. It's the Democrats themselves and the candidates that run in Texas. Texas Democrats leaving proved what many in Texas don't like about Democrats and how they. Also, I don't believe it will speak to the non-voters or Independents that need to be won over in Texas.
Also, there is another reality about Texas that I don't feel many on the outside understand. Texas has been GOP controlled since George W. Bush was Governor. That almost 30 years.
Many Texans don't want to surrender Texas to Democrats or the Democratic Party, especially now after seeing how poorly the Biden Administration handled the border, immigration, the concerns' about inflation, and the economy. Many would rather vote red or not vote to avoid that happening. I don't believe in my gut the gerrymandering fight will change any of that now.
Of course, I could be completely wrong about my states and my fellow Texans and I will be happily admit I am wrong. But living here my whole life, I don't think I am on this issue.
As an IL citizen, though I don’t know a lot of specifics about TX politics outside of this current standoff, I find it difficult to completely trust the motives of these legislators, based on who they’ve chosen to associate with. They fled to IL to be sheltered by the Democrats here, who have created ridiculously gerrymandered districts, and for decades had their noses firmly planted in the ass of their wildly corrupt leader Mike Madigan. They are being supported by our governor, who recently went on Colbert talking about the TX issue, while also laughing about the fact that his own state’s district map (drawn & gerrymandered by his party) looks like it was done by kindergarteners. Lovely.
I find the response to this episode and the "tone shift" at Pantsuit Politics really interesting, and it's certainly causing me to question my own reaction to things.
2024 was an extremely difficult year for me personally, and 2025 has actually been better in some ways. A lot of the stressors in my personal life aren't factors in my day-to-day life anymore. Plus, I went on anti-anxiety meds for the first time last year and learned a lot of coping strategies in therapy. So I'm generally a more upbeat person than I was last year.
One of my coping strategies is avoiding doom looping. I can acknowledge something is terrible and scary, figure out what (if anything) I can or should do about it, and then set it aside. A lot of Sarah and Beth's processing feels like that to me.
At the same time, I do worry that acknowledging this strategy is a way of putting my head in the sand, and I recognize that sometimes there's a real reason for anxiety. I worry about becoming apathetic or self-focused. But I also know that giving in to the anxiety isn't necessarily helpful. I decided at the start of this administration that Trump couldn't have my whole mind, and I'm sticking to that. But at what point does that turn into selfishness?
I also hear Sarah and Beth saying that this will pass. And I agree with that. But the trouble is that we don't know how bad it will get in the meantime.
I think that it's useful to note that a lot of this pushback came from instagram and I think that the algorithms are objectively bad for us. I also think that people who study human behavior, happiness, and that kind of thing cofirm with data what you are saying: people who are happy are more engaged. People who can compartmentalize and work within their circle of influence have more meaning in their lives and are less burned out. People who are happy donate more money to charitable causes, volunteer, and have deep relationships (there may be a chicken and egg thing here, so it's totally okay to fake it til you make it). So, I really think that the best science we have backs up Sarah and Beth (and it sounds like your) approach. We can only be outraged for so long before we give ourselves serious health problems. -Maggie
I think it’s very interesting that you mentioned the algorithm on insta as a cause to the pushback. Most of the comments I read were people who were long time followers and subscribers. I suppose that’s hard to verify but doesn’t seem algorithm driven.
I didn't mean to imply that they weren't real people who had listened to the show.
Just that...I know from our data that most of the people who follow us on Instagram almost never see anything we post or say online because the Instagram algorithm deprioritizes political content, but when one person posted a negative comment, that gave the algorithm a certain kind of information and fed more of that type of engagement.
It told the algorithm, "Oh, you follow Pantsuit Politics and you engage with content about the genocide in Gaza, here's something that'll make you really mad," because the algorithm knows that when these users are good and mad, they stay on the app longer and see more ads." (I'm not saying that's exactly the people who saw that post or that their concerns, feedback and feelings are not valid, but...I did recognize some of the user names). -Maggie