The Power of Three: 24 Years of Male-Female Friendship

Friendship, staying in touch, and America's need for a third party

Today, Sarah welcomes her longtime friends Mike and Smith to Pantsuit Politics in what we hope will be an exhale episode while Sarah and Beth are out of town with Common Ground Pilgrimages discussing Frankenstein.

Sarah has mentioned her long friendship with Mike and Smith many times over the years on Pantsuit Politics (and the physics books that she’s read thanks to their book club). We hope you enjoy this good hang with Mike and Smith, as well as the look behind the curtain at what Sarah’s political conversations sound like with her friends.

p.s. This is the last weekend of our limited-run Holiday Merch Sale! Don’t miss your chance for extra special Pantsuit Politics treats from calendars, cards, shirts, and ornaments for your holiday season!

Topics Discussed

• How College Friendships Survive Two Decades

• The Rarity and Reality of Male-Female Platonic Friendships

• (Outside of) Politics: Third Parties and America's Political Breaking Point

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Episode Resources

Redistricting and Regions: The Lines That Divide Us

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

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This podcast and every episode of it are wholly owned by Pantsuit Politics LLC and are protected by US and international copyright, trademark, and other intellectual property laws. We hope you'll listen to it, love it, and share it with other people, but not with large language models or machines and not for commercial purposes. Thanks for keeping it nuanced with us.

Episode Transcript

Alise [00:00:00] Hi friends. This is Alise, the managing director of Pantsuit Politics. Sarah and Beth are out of the country leading a trip with Common Ground Pilgrimages this week. On today’s show, we’re sharing a conversation many of you have asked for over the years. Sarah has often mentioned that two of her very best friends are men that she met in college, Mike and Smith. Today she’s invited them to join her to talk about how their friendship developed, the challenges of cross-gender friendship, and in the second half of the episode, how they’re all thinking about the state of our politics. It’s a great chance to hear the way Sarah talks off the mic with people in her daily life about the political realities we’re facing. We originally planned to release this episode a few weeks ago, but then Charlie Kirk was murdered and we rearranged things. So if you hear anything that sounds slightly dated, that’s why.

[00:00:41] Unfortunately, all the talk about a potential government shutdown is only more relevant today as it was then. Before I hand you off to Sarah, don’t forget that this week is your last chance to order from our limited run holiday sale. There’s some really great stuff, including a super cute Have the Best Holiday Available to You ornament that I know many of you are going to want on your tree this year. The sale only runs until this Sunday, October 19, and then these things are gone. No more chances to get them after Sunday. So make sure you order today, get that feeling of accomplishment that is only available when you do some holiday shopping this far in advance. It feels so good. Thank you as always for listening. Sarah and Beth will be back in your ears together on Tuesday with a brand new episode about SNAP benefits and soda regulations. It is one that you do not want to miss, I promise.

Sarah [00:01:31] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. You’re listening to Pantsuit Politics. Beth is out today. So I am joined by truly two of the greatest loves of my life, Mike Baker and Smith Crafton. Welcome to Pantsuit Politics!

Mike [00:01:47] Hi.

Smith [00:01:48] It’s a real pleasure.

Sarah [00:01:50] We have been friends for 24 years. We’re going to talk about that today. We’re going to talk about male and female friendships. And then Outside of Politics, we’re going to switch it and reverse it. And Outside of Politics, we’re going talk about politics. I understand it’s a little confusing. Just go with it, everybody. Don’t worry about it. Before we get started, we would love to have you join us on Substack. We have an incredible community over there. More to Say, News Brief, book clubs, film clubs, whatever you’re into. We’ve got some of it over on Substack, so come over and subscribe at Substack. All right, up next, Smith Crafton and a Mike Baker. All right. Hi, welcome.

Mike [00:02:41] Good morning.

Sarah [00:02:42] Good morning. Can you tell the people of Pantsuit Politics who you are and how you exist in the world, generally? Mike, you go first.

Mike [00:02:54] I am James Michael Baker, known by Michael Baker aka Remy Kitchen. I play a lot of music. I make a lot records. I live in Philadelphia. I went to college with Sarah at Transylvania University.

Sarah [00:03:10] Well, Smith and I were talking about this, like, this is probably pretty close to the 24th anniversary.

Smith [00:03:17] It’s the season.

Sarah [00:03:17] I mean, they start school and we started school in the beginning of September. It probably would have been right around this time of year

Smith [00:03:24] The greet lines for getting fired up.

Sarah [00:03:27] Okay, Smith, before we get into how we met in the greet line, you tell the people who you are.

Smith [00:03:31] I’m Smith Crafton. I live in Cleveland, Ohio, with my wife and children, and longtime best friend of Mike Baker.

Sarah [00:03:43] Yeah, they were friends before they met.

Smith [00:03:45] Yeah, we grew up in Henderson, Kentucky. And so we’ve known each other since we were in like third grade or so.

Sarah [00:03:51] So y’all are creeping up on like 30 plus years.

Smith [00:03:55] Yeah, you stop counting after a while.

Sarah [00:03:57] Yeah, you do.

Mike [00:03:57] Because it’s so good.

Smith [00:04:02] And so we entered college together as roomies and met Sarah the exciting first semester of being away at university.

Sarah [00:04:15] So they were friends, they were roommates. I was what we call at Transy a student orientation leader and a Rokas, which means I was a rush counselor, which means that I could not talk to any of my friends because basically everybody at Transy was in the Greek system and I wasn’t supposed to reveal to the other freshmen what sorority I was in. So I couldn’t really talk to anybody that I was friends with. And so I was the student orientation leader I was around freshmen. Neither of them were in my student orientation leader group, although that would have been fun. But at Transy we do this thing called the greet line where you just kind of snake around and shake everybody’s hand over the course of, God, I don’t even know how long it probably took. And everybody’s just shaking hands and saying hi and these two bozos are in the greet line and about every 10th to 12th person you would go-- I’ll let you do it. Do you remember what you were doing?

Smith [00:05:11] Grip like a bear.

Sarah [00:05:13] You would just like grab someone’s hand and grip like a bare. I don’t know if I got the treatment or if I just saw you doing it. When I look back on it, what’s so wild to me is it was not my sense of humor. Like it’s not like I was some like tomboy.

Smith [00:05:29] And it’s not even funny.

Sarah [00:05:31] It’s that.

Mike [00:05:35] It is funny.

Sarah [00:05:37] And so I don’t know why I was like those two looks like a good hang. But that is what I decided. I really very much decided those two are a good hang and I don’t know a better way to put it than just like adopted you. Did you feel a little forced to be my friend? Did you fell there was some more like not a lot of choice involved?

Mike [00:06:02] Yeah, I’d say that. I said we were young and impressionable at college. We were meeting a zillion people. You were the one who was like, I’m the one.

Sarah [00:06:11] I did. I was like, okay, these two I think I’ll make them my friends because I can’t talk to anybody female right now. So these two look like a good choice. And I just feel like we hung out all the time. We went everywhere together. What are y’all’s memories of that time?

Smith [00:06:31] Forced is a strong word, but you brought your characteristic energy to our friendship.

Sarah [00:06:40] Enthusiasm.

Smith [00:06:42] Enthusiasm and you know you were a couple years ahead of us.

Sarah [00:06:45] Yeah, I was two years older.

Smith [00:06:46] So as you as a freshman you’re meeting upperclassmen that can give you the layout lay on the land and everything going on at school being new to it. So we did we hung out a lot. We met eventually like some of your other friends, we were doing the typical freshmen get to know you activities and things around campus. But it’s kind of a heady time, your first semester getting acquainting to everything. So it was who’s this Sarah person who’s just like so hot.

Mike [00:07:23] I felt like I had an inn.

Smith [00:07:26] Yeah, that’s true.

Mike [00:07:27] College staff. It’s like we got college staff.

Sarah [00:07:31] When I look back on it, yeah, I guess it was that I was older. I was in a long-distance relationship with Nicholas, so I was definitely missing him and sad. And I don’t know if that’s part of the reason that I kind of wanted this male hang that I was missing. I was like I need some men in my life. My man is gone. My man is far away. I don’t know if that’s what it is. Like when I look on it it’s very out of the ordinary for the path of most of my friendships that took place. Most of my close friendships are women. My two male friendships I’ve carried through most of life are gay. So you’re just as very out of ordinary. So when you talk about your friends, you talk them through like a sibling framework.

Mike [00:08:20] Sure, we both have older sisters.

Sarah [00:08:23] Yeah, so that must have been part of it, don’t you think?

Smith [00:08:26] That’s definitely part of it. Yeah, thinking about this conversation today, I was definitely trying to work through [inaudible] because we both do have other female friends, some shared. We had a friend group that we developed at college there that included guys and girls that were friends. And I think having sisters is definitely part. But I also think there was maybe just like an openness to-- I mean, we had female friends in high school growing up that maybe there was just an openness and appreciation for just having a bunch of different kinds of friends. I also that when you start college and with you and with other friends I made at the time, I was thinking about who are some of the other people that have stuck with me? And sometimes it is personalities that you don’t always expect that you would necessarily have long-term friendships with or whatever. And for some reason you were drawn to that person because you were able to form like a deeper, more interesting connection for one reason or another and not just because you made us.

Sarah [00:09:39] I did, there was a little bit. And, listen, I will say, that is consistent for me across friendships. There are people I meet that I’m like you’re my friend now, you don’t really get much of a choice in it. You can ask my friend Elizabeth Passarella about that. So I’m like you’re friend my now. And so I think there was some of that. And then I say that, but I definitely had male friends in law school. Once I think you get to a certain point in life, especially I think so much of it is-- I watched Griffin and his friend group and some of them they’ll date and then they’ll break up and then it messes with the friend group. But once everybody’s locked in and they’re married or they have they’re partner, it did feel like in law school there was more room and like a little bit just more margin to be friends with men and women because there wasn’t that sort of romantic overhang, especially that you get I think in high school. I remember us having very in-depth conversations. You guys were in freshman year, so you could just see this mind expansion going on of like you’re learning all these things. And I remember us having lots of talks about politics and religion and all that kind of stuff.

Smith [00:10:51] I definitely feel challenged by our friendship.

Mike [00:10:57] Yeah, same.

Smith [00:10:58] Not only because the effort you put into being a friend was attractive in a way that you don’t always see with people that you meet or that you’ve only known for a short time. You’re inviting us to things or wanting to have these deeper conversations about things that we were learning about in class and politics. Obviously, it was a pretty heady time anyway, September 2001.

Sarah [00:11:27] Oh my god, yes.

Smith [00:11:29] Being on campus there were a lot of intense discussions and questions and things.

Mike [00:11:36] Smith and I watched the towers from our dorm room.

Sarah [00:11:38] We were just talking about that before you got on. I remember him being-- I think he came by my room later that day. I remember either he fell asleep or I fell asleep or we both fell asleep. And I remember feeling guilty, like, oh my God, I can’t believe we took a nap. That’s a terrible thing to do on a day like today.

Smith [00:11:53] It’s exhausting.

Sarah [00:11:54] It was exhausting. But look, here’s the thing. Lots of people meet in college and have bonding and heady conversations. But not a lot of people, I think especially male-female friendships, maintain those friendships over decades. So clearly something else happened and is different. Now I’m going to say I do think for like a lot of our 20s it was me showing up and being like, no, come visit me. I remember trying to think of things like I wanted you to stay. I wanted us to stay connected, but it was hard. I had kids way before you guys. I got married right out of college. You guys were off like backpacking.

Mike [00:12:39] Other countries

Sarah [00:12:40] Other countries doing all kinds of crazy shit. We were living very different lives in our 20s

Smith [00:12:46] Yeah, there was definitely always wasn’t as close as we are now for sure. Actively. Yeah. But that’s a good question. Like why? Because you meet a lot of people. You have connections in college. There’s people that I was close with that I am not as close with now, at least in terms. But because of really what you said is because of the communication. You were initiating a lot of that at the time and then later on we’ve developed this routine of it was really through having the-- I mean, we stayed in contact, but the book club has been...

Mike [00:13:22] I think the book club was a stroke of lightning.

Sarah [00:13:25] It really was.

Mike [00:13:26] It was it gives us something to talk about all the time.

Sarah [00:13:30] But now I remember in our 20s y’all came and visited me in DC a couple of times. But I remember there was sort of like I felt like a couple times in our 20s I was like being very sisterly and both of you were like back off. Like, be cool. Everything’s fine. We don’t need you to mother us. Like we’re just in our 20s. You’re having a different 20s experience. I remember a couple moments like that when we were doing our big friendship review, I found these emails where I would be like I’m just worried about you. And Mike was like, sis, calm. I’m fine. What are you doing? So there was definitely some good boundaries like, hey, it’s okay.

Mike [00:14:13] I think there were times where I was doing LSD in Italy.

Sarah [00:14:22] You were wilding. Just own it.

Mike [00:14:24] I’m shining.

Sarah [00:14:26] Not loudly, I’m shining.

Smith [00:14:30] Sarah was worried.

Sarah [00:14:31] I was worried, again, because we were having very different 20s.

Mike [00:14:36] Yeah, sure.

Sarah [00:14:41] And Smith I think you’ve always been a little firmer with the boundaries of like, uh-uh. I vividly remember vividly, vividly remember one time in college I was upset you weren’t hanging out with me or something. You were like people think you’re my girlfriend, it’s fine. Chill out. I was, like, okay.

Smith [00:15:00] We spent enough time together.

Sarah [00:15:02] We spent plenty of time together!

Mike [00:15:06] Smith’s always been very good at that.

Sarah [00:15:07] Smith is very good at boundaries. Smith is the firmest boundary keeper I do believe in this three [crosstalk].

Smith [00:15:12] Boundaries are helpful. Fences make good neighbors.

Mike [00:15:19] I’ve always appreciated when he said it’s what’s what.

Smith [00:15:24] Yeah, all those things, your own different life paths and experiences and then coming back and not being out of touch for a while and then kind of sifting back through things and figuring out where you were at different points and then until you sort of settle into the whatever routine of your life and you’re able to manage staying-- it’s not easy to stay in touch with people, even though it should be. But you only have the bandwidth for the people that you want, I guess, to really stay in touch with.

Sarah [00:15:59] But, yeah, I think the book club having like that trigger and then just a little bit of structure really, really helps. Especially because then you guys started having kids and then things really got intense. Then life started getting-- but it’s weird. It’s like almost don’t you feel like in a weird way having like more obligations almost made it easier to stay in touch in a weird way? Or maybe it was just that we all had obligations and that it put us on a more level playing field. I don’t know. What do you think?

Mike [00:16:34] Yeah, maybe. I think we also had things to talk about in a certain way. They kind of put us on a level playing field in that way.

Sarah [00:16:40] I mean, because that’s the key for my friendships I’ve maintained besides you guys. Myy other college and law school friends we had kids around the same time. And so there was just a lot of stuff like that that was keeping us in touch. And we had similar parenting styles and we have different lives, but we do have similar approaches to parenting. And I think that’s also really key.

Mike [00:17:00] Yes, for sure it is true. Yeah, I learned a lot from you guys. I appreciate that.

Sarah [00:17:16] Then I think the third phase, the biggest phase, is when we went on our trip. That was baller.

Mike [00:17:25] When’s our next trip? When’s out next trip?!

Sarah [00:17:26] When is our next trip? Okay, so we went and so it was in 2023 because you two were turning 40. And I said, we’re going somewhere for your 40th birthdays. And we met and we had a long weekend in New York City and we killed it. We killed it so hard.

Mike [00:17:44] It was good.

[00:17:46] I didn’t realize how much we needed to hang out in person until that trip. Did you?

Mike [00:17:52] It was awesome. I don’t know. Yeah

Smith [00:17:57] Well, I think it’s different than like, okay, you don’t see or maybe you don’t even stay in contact with a certain person, but it’s somebody from your life that you would hang out with and then you suddenly see them. Whereas, with us, we had the relationship motoring along and then we’re like let’s plan a trip. And you had a different jumping off point. So we have a lot to go from. We like to do similar things. We have funny energy.

Sarah [00:18:31] I don’t want brag, but I think we’re really funny.

Smith [00:18:33] We have funny energy.

Sarah [00:18:35] We’re fun and funny.

Smith [00:18:37] Yeah, I think so.

Sarah [00:18:39] Now, like 60% of the humor is just me and Mike annoying the shit out of Smith, but it works.

Smith [00:18:47] That’s the cool thing about the dynamics of a triad of three people. You can team up two on one when you need to. Mike and I can be just so frustrated with you about that. We can reel you out.

Sarah [00:19:03] I know. And I don’t know why have I signed up for this? I have three boys. I have so much male energy. What’s wrong with me.

Smith [00:19:08] Yeah, why are you looking to hang out with two more dudes?

Sarah [00:19:11] Why am I looking to hang out with two more dudes who can be like, stop? But I told people repeatedly since that trip, and we’ve been on another since then, I said, “It is the best girls’ trip I’ve ever been on.” Because there’s none of the like, well, I don’t care what we do. I don’t care where we sleep. Like, there’s a hilarious reel where the girl’s like I don’t care where we sleep. I can sleep on the floor. I can sleep in a drawer. I could sleep in the bathtub. And she just keeps getting worse and worse and worse. I remember when we were in New York and we were at that market and Mike was like, “This is not my scene. I don’t want to be here.” You’re like, “No, let’s go. I don’t like this.” And it’s just there’s no emotion. It’s just like I don’t like. I don’t want to be here anymore. I’m going to do my thing. You do your thing, whatever. It just such a different. I think with you guys the difference I feel is no one’s ever worried about anyone being mad at them. Maybe me, the most of the three of us. But then I’m like, oh, right, I don’t need to worry about that. That’s stupid. Because you’ll be like, why? It’s not even like you are angry. It’s like you’re confused. When I am like are you mad? Or is something wrong? And there’s just a confusion that emits from both of you. Like, why would I be? What are you talking about?

Mike [00:20:26] No, baseline. I love you.

Sarah [00:20:28] Baseline.

Mike [00:20:30] But there is a lot of room to talk. I mean, if one of us was annoyed or perturbed about something we were doing or something somebody else was doing.

Smith [00:20:43] Am I the most prickly of the three?

Mike [00:20:48] Sure.

Smith [00:20:48] Whatever.

Smith [00:20:51] There’s room to like talk about all those things. Like if there really were an issue.

Sarah [00:20:57] I don’t feel like we’ve ever had that though, do you?

Smith [00:21:00] Well, probably now that you’re kind of reminiscing, probably like you said earlier, the time of a little too aggressive of a check in.

Sarah [00:21:16] A little too aggressive of a check in, okay.

Smith [00:21:20] Yeah, but you have to recognize that comes from a place of care and worry, but really it’s like the communication. Thinking about our conversation, it’s like what is it that-- okay, so two things. So one the communication that I might find like with a female, the level of communication feels more open, probably feels more expansive and the things that you want to talk about a lot of the times, not always. That’s not always the case I know with people, but I’m just trying to think back like what are the dynamics of the male female friendship that you feel like I get out of it that I might not get from a guy friendship. But then the other thing is even if there are male female friends where that platonic relationship is good and solid, where else do you see a friendship of three? Like, it’s a funny group. Like, of two guy friends that have been friends for a long time. For so long. And then a third person who is the opposite sex, who then have this dynamic. I mean, it is not common.

Sarah [00:22:41] It’s not average. It’s not common.

Smith [00:22:42] So even if you do feel like you are capable of forming these friendships across sexes for different reasons, it’s still not common to have a group of three that has that type of relationship, which is cool.

Sarah [00:22:53] But I think it kind of helped that you guys were best friends.

Mike [00:22:55] I think so, too.

Sarah [00:22:57] I think if it changed things. Well because it was a trio, I think there was that sort of diffused any romantic undertones-- not even undertones, other people’s questions That’s really what it was from the beginning. Like that’s what I want to talk about next, is there were never romantic undertones between any of us. First of all, I was the only one that had a partner.

Smith [00:23:26] Me and Mike.

Sarah [00:23:27] Well, besides you and Mike obviously.

Smith [00:23:28] Yeah, romantic undertones, for sure.

Sarah [00:23:32] That takes me back. That was like a common thread all the way through college. And so with Nicholas, the funny thing was-- okay, so he goes away from law school. I’d had a boyfriend before that had cheated on me. I was pretty possessive and jealous. I was like don’t make any female friends. I don’t want to hear a girl’s name. Even though I’ve never really been worried about Nicholas. He’s serial monogamous, all these things. So I send him off to school and I’m like don’t even talk to another girl. I’m like, oh, by the way, so I’m hanging out with these guys Mike and Smith all the time.

Smith [00:24:06] We watch movies all day.

Sarah [00:24:08] We nap. We hang out all the time. Also, Mike wrote me a song. How about that? And he’s like, what the fuck? Like, what is going on? And I remember him being like-- I don’t think he was ever worried, but there was like a what is this? And then I think when he met you two he was like, oh, okay.

Smith [00:24:29] Not threatened at all.

Sarah [00:24:30] Not threatened at all. Well, because I think he got around us and was like, there’s nothing, there’s no undertone there. Like, this is cool, these guys are cool. Also, I think, he was just like, oh, I get it. They’re such a good hang. And he has hang. He’s been the longest of the partners since, obviously, we were together before y’all, so he’s hang with us from time to time. He tries to come to the book club, sometimes we let him.

Mike [00:24:54] He tries to come to the book club. A lot of partners try to come to the book club.

Sarah [00:24:57] They do. They do! Well, and then you have the in-between, so then you have Linda. When did y’all start? You dated your freshman year, then you didn’t, then you got back together. [Inaudible] still a learner, clearly.

Mike [00:25:14] Obviously, I know what’s good for me.

Sarah [00:25:17] Y’all were together by the time you graduated from college.

Mike [00:25:19] Yeah.

Sarah [00:25:20] And Linda and I were housemates, fun fact, my senior year. And so you were kind of like in an in-between because she knew us. She knew that we were like friends. She knew me. So there was probably never any worry, concern or anything like that.

Mike [00:25:38] No.

Smith [00:25:40] Honestly, y’all didn’t really get together till the end of college anyways.

Mike [00:25:44] Yeah.

Smith [00:25:46] But she knew you from that time and so our friendship beyond that I was trying to think about like her. She has male friendships that are from high school, couple of close guy friends. But there was probably some times where she’s like what is this? Do you guys like all three of you just like talk or you’re going to go visit her or what? And it wasn’t until especially by the time we got to this phase three, as you say. The trips when she was glad and encouraging of like-- because you want to be supportive of your partner’s friendships and I’ve been at home, I’ve a stay at home parent for a while, and so it can be isolating. So to have long time friends that you would want to be able to go see and hang out with, obviously she was very encouraging of that. Happy to see that.

Sarah [00:26:52] Core memory when we were in Manhattan. And I just remember you at one point going, “Guys I really needed this.” And I will never forget I felt like my heart expanded

Mike [00:26:59] I know, that’s sweet. I love that

Sarah [00:27:00] It just grew a little bit.

Mike [00:27:01] I feel it’s very important in a partnership to be like, go do your thing.

Smith [00:27:08] Yeah, that’s been really... To have those other-- whether it’s a hobby activity or like good solid relationship friend. Absolutely. Agree.

Sarah [00:27:21] So Mike is newly engaged to Lottie, who we love, but this is like the most. So Lotti came green.

Mike [00:27:31] No, that’s true.

Smith [00:27:31] Get him right in here.

Sarah [00:27:32] Tell us when you explained what she said, she was like, by the way, I’m going on this trip. What was her kind of thought process?

Mike [00:27:40] I think she realized pretty quickly it was a whole thing.

Sarah [00:27:44] It’s a thing.

Mike [00:27:45] It’s a whole thing.

Sarah [00:27:46] It’s a whole thing.

Mike [00:27:47] And then I explained to her how it all came about, that Smith and I have been friends since we were little and in college and all that. And honestly, I think she’s kind of just always wanted to like hang too.

Sarah [00:28:04] She’s does. She’s so sweet.

Smith [00:28:04] She’s jelly.

Sarah [00:28:05] I dig it. When we were in Philly our next trip was to Philly and Lottie went to dinner with us. She was a good addition. No notes. We love Lotti so much and we we get do a wedding. I have suggested a unity candle, which I think is a really good suggestion.

Smith [00:28:26] It will be so fun. Unity Candle.

Mike [00:28:28] Unity is great.

Smith [00:28:30] It’s just depends on when we do it. Are we going to do it at the altar? Something like that.

Smith [00:28:36] I wish we could have gotten that recording from our last book club call, but we went from wedding to Sarah immediately visioning lighting a special candle.

Sarah [00:28:51] Lottie’s so sweet. She’s like, oh, what is that? Yeah, that’s sounds like a-- because Lottie is so sweet and supportive of our friendship. She’s, like, yeah, sure, whatever sounds great.

Smith [00:29:03] And then I was able to step in and say, buddy, we don’t have to do this.

Sarah [00:29:09] You’re forgetting a key part, which is I’m in our bedroom listening to this, and when I say it, Nicholas from the other end of the room screams, no, you’re not doing that. It’s still a good idea.

Smith [00:29:22] It’s an interesting idea.

Sarah [00:29:23] Lottie has been so, so sweet. And when we went to dinner she was like tell me everything. Tell me how y’all met and hang out. It was so sweet. But it is funny I don’t think we’ve ever had any issues with any of our partners. I do have friends. I have one friend when we went to New York, she was like, but they’re both gay. And I’m like, they’re not gay. She’s like, one of them is. I’m, like, no, neither of them are gay. And she just like it would not compute. She cannot. There are certain people who when I try to explain it to them they’re like, you’re best friends with their wife? And I’m like, no, just them

Smith [00:30:08] I’d be curious because I feel like Mike said, I feel like we’ve always had the openness to you make friends with people and you’re attracted to people a friend way that are interesting to you or you get along with or you are inspired by, whatever number of reasons, whether they’re male or female. And I get why some people maybe couldn’t have trouble in their friend groups or they try to date each other or whatever makes it weird. But I would be curious for the general adult population, how many people say they have platonic friendships with opposite sex? I wonder what it is.

Sarah [00:30:47] I would be interested. I don’t think it’s super high in my own experience. I think there’s a lot of people who keep friendships from like college and high school. The most cross gender situations I see are like old school ones, but they’re not close. They don’t hang out. I don’t know any in my life that goes on trips with their other folks.

Smith [00:31:08] For sure.

Mike [00:31:09] I think you have to be really comfortable in your relationship and honestly it’s probably a good sign of the health of you supporting your partner and stuff like that.

Sarah [00:31:20] Yeah. And I just think it’s also the length of ours. It’s like if we just all made friends at like a workplace, I don’t know, like two years ago, that’d be different. But this is 24 years at this point. It’s a kind of a different situation. And I think that’s part of it. I do want a couples trip. I’ve been pushing. I want to I want to just take a trip the six of us. I think that’d be super freaking fun.

Mike [00:31:43] A blast for sure.

Sarah [00:31:44] We can do a little rehearsal at the wedding.

Smith [00:31:46] It might not be. It might be let’s leave them. Let’s have our time.

Sarah [00:31:51] It might be a terrible time. Yeah, we might be like why did we bring them? Why do you bring them, Sarah? What a stupid idea. Get rid of them.

Mike [00:31:57] We just wanted to get our jokes into each other

Sarah [00:32:01] There was just a piece of the New York Times and they were talking about they called it riffing that there’s a thing that happens and we think friendships are built on like shared interest. Well, I would say that music has always been a shared interest, obviously, and politics I think to a certain extent, and an interest in the world. And then so I guess we do have shared interests, but you know what I mean. And they’re like you think it’s shared interest; you think it shared face of life? But there is something that happens and they describe it as riffing. And that I think for whatever reason was like a plus number one from day one. The riffing is good.

Mike [00:32:42] We can untangle a yarn. We can take a yarn and tangle it out.

Sarah [00:32:45] And we can just spin it until we’re hysterical. And not just humor, too. Like, in our discussions we’re getting somewhere. We’re like we’re breaking some shit down. People should listen to more of our ideas, is what I think.

Mike [00:33:01] And I treasure it. I treasure that about us.

Sarah [00:33:06] The riffing is good. You know a good riff, you’re a musician. You get it.

Mike [00:33:10] Yeah, you get it and get a rhythm going with your-- and again I think that’s the power of three sometimes. I mean, sometimes a one-on-one relationship or a call can be a little heavier where you’re like one person is going to talk for a while and I’m going to listen and then another person is going to share their thing for a lot. That can be like a little more intense.

Sarah [00:33:29] It is more intense.

Smith [00:33:30] Trio it’s a magic number.

Mike [00:33:32] It’s a magic number.

Sarah [00:33:33] I mean, maybe this episode is not about male-female friendships. Maybe it’s just about the power of a trio. I don’t know

Mike [00:33:39] Yes, it could be.

Smith [00:33:40] About triangles the strongest form in the universe.

Sarah [00:33:42] That’s right. There we go

Sarah [00:33:47] I mean it. Greatest loves of my life, just what a blessing you two have been.

Mike [00:33:51] Love you so.

Sarah [00:33:52] I love you so much.

Smith [00:33:53] Love you guys.

Sarah [00:33:54] Okay, now we’re going to go to outside politics, but not. It’s going to be politics, so buckle up. So, how you feeling about American politics these days, guys? Feeling good? Feeling great?

Smith [00:34:15] Really positive, really optimistic.

Sarah [00:34:17] Feeling like it’s going well? Yeah, this is the point in the book club where Smith would probably start yelling.

Smith [00:34:28] No.

Sarah [00:34:29] Yeah, you do. You get mad about politics and then you’re just like, oh, God, I just, ugh! You get a little--

Smith [00:34:34] It’s frustrating.

Sarah [00:34:35] It’s frustrating. We recorded an episode yesterday about the Democratic Party and Ezra Klein’s call for them to shut down the government, and my heart rate was like 135 beats a minute. I was so mad when I was recording that conversation.

Mike [00:34:52] Is there nothing beyond just binary tit-and-tat? Is that what we get? It’s just two parties that just...

Sarah [00:34:58] I think so.

Mike [00:34:59] They fight one way, they go they go low in one way and the other party goes low the same way.

Sarah [00:35:03] Yeah, I think we’re in a sort of a bit of a death spiral. Yes. I think there is a bit of a bipolar. Well, that’s what we keep talking about on Substack. It’s not just politics. There’s like this bimodal situation in all of American culture right now. It’s all or nothing. It’s like either you’re tapped into the news or you’re a completely passive consumer and you don’t pay attention at all.

Mike [00:35:30] It’s the benefit of the doubt

Smith [00:35:31] It’s almost like you need a third option. A trio maybe.

Sarah [00:35:36] A trio. That’s so right. The theme. Good. That was good. That was a good job.

Smith [00:35:42] Thank you.

Sarah [00:35:43] I will this. I would say at more than any other point in my adult life, does it feel like a third party could really take off right now?

Smith [00:35:54] More than any other time? Yeah.

Sarah [00:35:56] It feels like there’s fertile ground out there.

Smith [00:35:58] It does feel like there is a lot of fertile ground. I don’t even know what the runway for it to be functioning and influential enough to not just be that spoiler party again. I don’t know what that looks like.

Sarah [00:36:12] Well, because it’s so complicated because it looks different in every stinking state. That’s the problem.

Smith [00:36:16] Yeah, that’s true.

Mike [00:36:18] I still I still am of the opinion that the United States should be like five countries. We would be better served. I think our education laws would fit better. It would be fine.

Sarah [00:36:26] I mean, don’t you remember when we did that thing here and we had that author on he talks about like how it’s-- remember the historian we had on and he breaks down the histories of all the different sections of the country and that there’s all-- it is very different from each other. You don’t get more different from like New Hampshire to like Southern, California.

Mike [00:36:48] Yeah, the same education rules in New Hampshire apply to Texas. Like, it just doesn’t, yeah, I think we’re better served by local government.

Sarah [00:36:57] Well, that’s what we’re talking about right now. There’s like this-- have you heard about this soft succession?

Smith [00:37:03] Yeah.

Mike [00:37:04] Yeah

Sarah [00:37:04] Yeah, it’s like the blue states are like soft succeeding. So like they’ll form their own things.

Smith [00:37:09] Right. And everyone internally state by state sort of like all right I know I’m not going to depend on the federal government to to do certain things in my state, so we’ll do what we can inward and like...

Sarah [00:37:22] But you can ask Texas in their power grid how that ends. They’re not linked to the rest of the United States.

Smith [00:37:26] Yeah, absolutely.

Mike [00:37:29] Yeah. But that’s also I mean that you do lose the infrastructure, you lose the power, the resources of the federal government to shore up some of those things. But that’s just one of the drawbacks. There are benefits probably to...

Mike [00:37:47] The federal government is declaring war right now on Chicago.

Sarah [00:37:49] On Chicago. Well, my father-in-law said he was reading about it. And it’s like in blue states you would say like, okay, well, we’re going to cut off the water and the energy for like the National Guard troops stationed in our city. Like you can be here, but you can’t have access to our utilities. I don’t know how that would end.

Smith [00:38:09] I don’t like that path. It makes me a little uncomfortable.

Sarah [00:38:13] It’s getting uncomfortable out there though.

Smith [00:38:15] Yeah, it is.

Mike [00:38:16] It is. For sure. Yeah. I think we talked about it the other day that Trump is going to-- I think this ends with him. Whatever he’s on, I think there’s going to be some kind of reset, I think, and he’s holding this.

Sarah [00:38:32] Hey, you’re the history major. Help us out here. I think it has to, I don’t--

Mike [00:38:37] We’ve been through stuff like this. I’m telling Ladi a lot of times, she’ll be like blah, blah, blah. And I’ll be like there have been worse things that have happened in the United States. Like we literally like split apart and killed each other for a while.

Sarah [00:38:50] Yeah, like a lot of us.

Mike [00:38:51] There were times where business people ran this entire system and told everybody what to do.

Sarah [00:38:57] And you were locked out. Totally locked out

Mike [00:38:58] Fully locked out. Yeah, and this system has somehow still evolved and become a thing and I think it will-- again it is different now for sure. The internet has just reset everything and how people’s social connections are formed and how they’re accountable to each other. It’s just a different ballgame for sure, but...

Sarah [00:39:18] I don’t think they’re accountable to each other. That’s what I’m concerned about. People feel accountable to each another.

Mike [00:39:23] It’s changed. Yeah.

Sarah [00:39:25] Yeah, I’m like, okay, are we authoritarian now? Yeah, I think we are, but that doesn’t mean it’s permanent. The United States is so big and so decentralized. It is hard to change things permanently. It’s hard to change things permanent in any country, but because it’s composed of human beings that are living and dying and changing and learning and shifting at all times and being influenced by technology and the culture and the society.

Mike [00:39:54] He’s a want to be dictator. He’s a want to be.

Sarah [00:39:55] That’s for sure. No, he says he’s not. He says he’s not. Don’t worry. That should make you sleep easier at night. He says no.

Smith [00:40:02] Also, I’ve always thought that I agree like that there is no one that can replace him. I mean he takes up too much air, oxygen.

Sarah [00:40:14] And he’s just got such a long history of being in all of our consciences.

Mike [00:40:20] Yeah, he’s a cultural icon.

Sarah [00:40:21] The cultural presence. I tell y’all this all the time, I don’t watch a TV show, I don’t watch something from the 80s or 90s and his ass didn’t come up. It’s crazy.

Mike [00:40:32] Yeah, he was like on Geraldo.

Sarah [00:40:34] Oh my God, there wasn’t anything he wasn’t. And if he wasn’t on there, they were talking about him because he just became such a good stand in for wealth, and like for a certain kind of lifestyle of the rich and famous vibe. I mean, like they say like Gremlins 2-- y’all have seen Gremlings 2?

Smith [00:40:52] Yeah.

Mike [00:40:52] No, I don’t think so.

Sarah [00:40:53] It’s a crazy. There’s a hilarious Keenan Peele sketch where they’re like it’s in the movie. And then somebody will be like a girl gremlin, a Superman gremlin. This guy’s like, “It’s in the movie.” And then in the end they’ll put up a little caption like all this is actually in the movie. Like they put it all in the movie. But the villain is like a Trump-esque villain. It’s like a real estate developer and he’s all about the cameras and like it’s just everywhere all the time. But that won’t be true forever!

Smith [00:41:24] It won’t be true forever. And so you have to also, I mean, it’s really, really bad, right? The state of things is really bad. We consume so much more of it now than you used to be able to.

Sarah [00:41:40] Some of us do, and some of us are totally checked out.

Smith [00:41:42] Some of us don’t. And I’m not saying you should check out. I sometimes do like to temper whatever I’m feeling with like the news drip obviously can be constant if you want it to. So you’re just hearing about literally everything that’s happening all the time versus getting the paper once a day or whatever.

Mike [00:42:03] Once a week.

Smith [00:42:03] Once a weak. So I try to factor that into whatever my little equation in my head is about how worried should I be?

Mike [00:42:15] I think that’s part of the problem. I think it’s part of the problems that we are so, we have so much that like I don’t have to listen. And if I didn’t tune in and didn’t know stuff then I wouldn’t. I would hardly know. I have the privilege to do that. A lot of people don’t and I might get caught up in something but also most people can just tune out and not worry about it and have the same life.

Sarah [00:42:39] Well, that’s so interesting. I think about it a lot. Like, okay, if you’re a passive news consumer, what is actually bubbling up?

Smith [00:42:46] Yeah, what little headlines are you seeing?

Sarah [00:42:48] Yeah, well, and that’s why you don’t have to consume news to understand things are getting more expensive, right? So is it that we’re these selfish jerks that are only concerned with our pocketbooks or is that just an ever present input in a way that if you do not consume news, that’s going to stay present in your mind. And so it’s like I’ll never forget this woman talking about this is what happens in Russia in countries where they’re like it’s highly censored. When the war started, when they invaded Ukraine, because it’s so censored, but like there was a shift in when it became the images and the tenor, like you would pick up on something’s happening. Because obviously they’re not going to be actively consuming the news, there is no news, it’s all censored. But like here I think it’s like what are you going to register from like a TV in the doctor’s waiting room? Like what’s going to blow?

Mike [00:43:42] I think one thing that’s bubbled up is is I think people see people getting like jerky. I think that that and prices at the grocery store.

Sarah [00:43:53] Yeah, people say all the time, like, they don’t like the bipartisanship. I don’t know why they keep voting for Trump, but they do say they don’t like it. They don’t like how divided we are. They don’t like the divisive politics, but it has to be some of the stuff that I found so outrageous and upsetting. They’re not going to even know about it. They’re not going to know that he posted that thing about Chicago. That’s not going bubble up to a strong enough level for them to register.

Mike [00:44:22] Right.

Sarah [00:44:24] And I think that’s what’s really hard. Because people weren’t watching the nightly news all together anymore. They’re not getting the paper. Like there’s not an agreed upon narrative. And I think that’s what’s so difficult about those people that are just passively consuming it. I mean, it’s got to go viral in a way.

Smith [00:44:40] Somehow. Yeah.

Sarah [00:44:42] It’s going to be strong enough. It’s going to be on every screen you’re looking at like you’re walking past or it’s going to be on TikTok.

Smith [00:44:44] Even if you’re not watching the news, there has to be people on their phones enough that some of that stuff breaks through to different generations obviously like to different formats and everything, but on social media, some of the things, the daily things.

Sarah [00:45:03] And I’m not sure anything’s happened since his first term that’s been strong enough to like bubble up across all of those platforms. I can’t think of anything.

Smith [00:45:12] No, beyond something that he is going to do a policy he’s going to enact or whatever because we’re not even a year in so if it’s going to be the economy or another external factor that’s going to force him to force something upon him in such a way like to cause a bad reaction or for him to make a bad decision or look flat footed or whatever, it hasn’t happened yet.

Sarah [00:45:36] Actually, I think there might be one. I think it might be Epstein.

Smith [00:45:40] Yeah, that’s true.

Sarah [00:45:42] I think that might be the one.

Smith [00:45:43] But the way that he operates around that, and his team operates around that when all of that bubbled up from the legs of it were because they were continuing to use it and now--

Sarah [00:45:58] They can’t control it.

Smith [00:45:59] They can’t control it fully. But yeah, it’s still so right there like the stuff he gets away with without having to answer questions about it or it’s just so frustrating.

Sarah [00:46:14] Something that would have taken out somebody else like that. And even in this news environment would take them out like that.

Smith [00:46:22] Yeah.

Sarah [00:46:23] And also the same people that would applaud someone, a politician being taken out by some scandal or whatever, can now be totally oblivious or being like can’t touch him. It’s manufactured or he’s too tough or fake news or whatever. You can come up with all the different ways that you can ignore it now. Yeah.

Sarah [00:46:45] That’s rough.

Smith [00:46:45] What was the sign-off in the picture? It was like to every day being another special secret or whatever?

Sarah [00:46:53] Yeah. His Epstein birthday letter.

Smith [00:46:55] Yeah

Sarah [00:46:56] Yeah, enigmas that never age. Those two, yeah, I’d say so. I’d I say so! Okay, that was a depressing end of the show. See, this is why we do Outside of Politics.

Mike [00:47:13] We really nailed it. We really nailed that one.

Sarah [00:47:17] We’re going to do a lightning round, throw everybody a treat. What is the best book you think we’ve read as a book club? That’s a hard one.

Mike [00:47:33] What was that, the one we wrote about? What was the one where we read about all the cutting edge experiments on physics and cosmology and stuff?

Sarah [00:47:42] The very beginning. You picked it.

Mike [00:47:45] That was the first one I picked in that direction, yeah.

Sarah [00:47:47] That was one of the first physics books we read. Yes, because you’re the one who was like I think we should read about physics. And I was like oh, I don’t know.

Mike [00:47:55] Yeah, I just like the edges of human knowledge [crosstalk].

Smith [00:47:59] I can’t quite remember what that one was.

Sarah [00:48:05] I’m looking.

Smith [00:48:06] I believe it might be called the Edge of Physics or something like that.

Mike [00:48:09] Oh, yeah, something like that. I think for me, while we’re thinking of that, I keep coming back to I actually really as far as something that sticks with me, Lolita is such a good, unique novel, challenging everything. But so was I really still and it was an early pick when would like to read it again is Lincoln in the Bardo.

Smith [00:48:33] Yeah, that one was good.

Sarah [00:48:35] I forgot that was for our book club!

Smith [00:48:37] That was for our book club. That was one of the first ones in it. And now that I say that, thinking about when I was listening to it, it’s been longer than I thought that we’ve been doing this because that would have been-- I can remember where I was living and it would have had to have been at least like 2017.

Sarah [00:48:56] Wow.

Smith [00:48:57] Or 2016, somewhere around in there.

Sarah [00:48:59] Oh, yeah. [Crosstalk].

Smith [00:49:02] So we are close to be 10 years.

Sarah [00:49:03] The physics books definitely-- when we would learn around dark matter, and then I just feel like the books would... I think all the time about the Annie Dillard piece where she talks about physicists are like mystics. Like they’re very like woo woo.

Mike [00:49:21] That’s what I love about it. It’s just like a mystic vision. It’s like music too. It’s magical. You can’t hold it.

Sarah [00:49:29] The Edge of Physics, a Journey to Earth’s Extremes to Unlock the Secrets of the Universe. That was it.

Smith [00:49:38] Was this the one that included the discussion of geologic time?

Sarah [00:49:42] Oh my god. See it calms mike down and it spins me up. That’s the problem. Mike is like, mmh, and I’m like, oh my God, what do you mean you don’t understand dark matter? What do you need to start over and every assumption you had was wrong? Help. I loved Lincoln in the Bardo. I will say probably one of the books I still think about the most is Lolita. Remember when we read that book, I said I felt like I was losing my mind along with him. Like it was so overwhelming and you submerged in his psyche. And then since we’ve read it like when you read something about Lolita and you’re like oh yeah that was true of the book. It is a very special book. It’s a special book. I know that sounds crazy considering the topic, but what he does-- and I feel like I read something the other day where he’s like, what he does is he shows you the cost. He shows you really the cost of what’s going on between both parties and humanizes it in such a deep way. This thing that can really float in the black, white, good, evil, very up here moralizing.

Mike [00:51:11] Just the morality of it, yeah.

[00:51:12] Yes. And he takes it and he’s like, no, we’re not going to do that. Let’s break this down. Let’s get into it in a way that’s deeply uncomfortable.

Smith [00:51:20] Deeply uncomfortable but also there’s times like you said where you’re so engrossed, you’re so deep in the story and the psyche of the narrator and everything telling the story that you forget who you’re listening to or you forget what voice is in your head that you’re reading. Yeah. It’s fascinating.

Sarah [00:51:40] Well, I don’t know if Lolita is a light and easy treat to end.

Smith [00:51:43] No, that’s probably not.

Mike [00:51:45] No, that’s not an easy treat.

Sarah [00:51:47] A book club. People love a book club. So we’ll just end it there. All right, well, thank you. Thank you for coming on Pantsuit Politics.

Smith [00:51:55] Thanks for having us on. What a pleasure.

Mike [00:51:57] It was great.

Sarah [00:51:58] And of course we would love you to share this episode with your friends, male and female. Word of the mouth is still the best marketing for podcasts. So we’d love for you to pass the word along in your circles about Pantsuit Politics. Beth and I will be back in your ears on Tuesday with another episode and until then keep it nuanced y’all.