Thank you for this! I had thoughts and feelings as a 40 year old single childless woman about the episode, but honestly it made me want to be kinder to my brother and sister in law who have decided to only have one child. I am from a family of 4 kids and my sister in law a family of 3 kids so it was surprising to hear their decision and sad to think of my niece not having siblings, but I need to allow their decision to be their own and not put my perspective as a single person in the mix
I have an only child (25yo son) and I know he regrets our choice. It was not so much a plan but just how life worked out. Curiously his longtime girlfriend is also an only. Will be interesting to see what happens when they make their "plans". But I also know that siblings do not always live up to the hype when it comes to connection and caretaking - no guarantees. But like Beth pregnancy really sucked. Maybe if life was less stressful and I started younger it would have been easier and I would have more than one child but maybe if ne divorced.
Every time I encounter discussions about birthrates I think about the adaptation comment left by Ashley. If we change the ways we live and work then lower birthrates aren't a crisis and they might make it sustainable for more people to have more children.
I thought about your post numerous times during my week. I echo many of the sentiments that others have shared. And then, last evening, my husband was talking at the dinner table about one of his married friends who does not have children. Our 15 and 12 year old boys were present. He made a comment about how since they don’t have kids they have the ability to go places we don’t. “ouch” I say internally but my 12 yo says quickly “well when you retire. “ I then speak up and share that I do not see anything as missing out, it’s a choice for the moment and we do get to do a lot of things. Which is very true, our kids have experiences and have gone many places. While we do not go too many places as a couple sans kids, we have. It’s a choice. My super power is not vacation deal planning. I do okay, but I do think it is a skill to find deals. We are a dual income home and my choice to be finished with having kids after two took into account my mental and financial bandwidth for all that goes into raising humans. It’s not a negative view on those factors just reality that I feel responsibility in HOW I want to parent. I understand my strengths and my husband’s. As my kids grow older I do wonder about fostering. A former neighbor was a foster to adopt and she spent so much time at our house. I enjoyed when she was over and at times it did feel like she was part of the family. All this to say your post and last night’s mealtime convo reinforce how important I find it to reflect and be aware of perspectives and how those are communicated to my kids. They are developing their own narrative about child rearing and norms that will shape the next generation.
Agree with the tech comment. Many people I know would love to be partnered/having children, but just haven’t met anyone. I honestly don’t know how I would meet someone if I were looking right now.
I didn't have kids because I didn't want to have kids. And I made that decision sometime in second or third grade and stuck with it. I personally think I'd be a great mom, but of all the decisions I've made throughout my lifetime, I've never regretted that one for even one second.
On technology… After a very brief stint downloading an app in my younger 20’s, I just refuse to use dating apps.
Recently, though, I have very slowly been interacting more with a guy at my church. I help with the Spanish service and he works there (not as a pastor).
Last weekend, in our first conversation not-only-about service-related stuff, I told him I would be gone this weekend, so one thing might not be done. He said he would look out for it. Then he asked if I was going somewhere, and I said to the Twin Cities for a concert. Then he asked who it was. I said “Yebba…. It’s Abbey spelled backwards.” And he said “I’ll have to check it out.” I told him that one of her big songs is “Evergreen.” And he says, “That’s interesting. There are a couple groups with songs named Evergreen.” He listed one band and couldn’t recall the other group at the moment. He was interested to see how this Evergreen would be. Anyway, we chatted a bit more and he talked about how he would see me in 2 weeks, and hoped I had a good time.
I was just floored by someone immediately saying they would check out her music without any details or knowledge of my (eclectic) taste in music. A lot of her songs are desperately sad and not exactly “church music” if that’s what he’s going for. And I have to wait 2 weeks (closer to 1 now) to find out if he listened to her and what he thinks. 😂 Which I kind of love! I don’t know if he has any social media, but I appreciate knowing nothing about him and having to find out more naturally in-person.
Both of my parents are only children! My mom always wanted 3 children, because 2 is too close to 1. Haha.
My mom actually has multiple good friends who are only children. Those are people with capacity to have friends beyond their family!
My mom grew up with both her parents and a bachelor uncle on the farm. So, essentially 3 parents to 1 child! My dad’s dad died when he was a senior in HS, but his mom lived to be 90. Caregiving for all those parental figures was a lot.
Also, none of my grandparents were young parents. I am the middle child and almost 34. Of my 4 grandparents, 2 were born in 1905 and 1 was born in 1909. I don’t understand close generations. Or aunts/uncles/first cousins. 😂
I’m late to the party but I wanted to chime in. First, I was late having my first child and now I really wish I had started sooner. But sooner would have been in the middle of the pandemic and I remember thinking NOPE I don’t want to bring a kid into this. Even though I wish I would have started earlier, my nieces are getting married at 19 and 20 years old and want to have kids right away and have their husbands take over all the finances. And I’m so sad that they won’t have the opportunity to go out and figure out how to live life on their own just a little bit. I know my parents generation married super young and had babies super young and then ended up divorced before they were 30. I think that definitely impacted me getting married and having kids later. But point taken about kids starting to feel like a luxury good. Y’all know how much car seats cost these days?? A lot of freaking money. Not to mention the cost of childcare. I agree with what you said about the reasons being both cultural and economic. Also on Beth’s comment about not enjoying pregnancy—I was thinking that is the one thing that has not changed—the physical toll it takes on women. Pregnancy and childbirth are hard on a person’s body. That is not going to change!
I found this conversation fascinating. I have two children, debated having a third, and ultimately did not. In our case, it was a combination of finances, lack of a strong support system, and a desire to not go through another high-risk pregnancy.
We moved abroad from the U.S. to Spain, and I can clearly see the cultural differences in how children are perceived. Here, people just generally take their kids along to go wherever they're going. Families are very involved in one another's lives. There's a strong support system at nearly every level, including childcare, universal healthcare, etc.
And still, the Spanish birth rate is incredibly low.
I think the answer is multilayered, but when the world feels like it's burning down around you, I can understand why the idea of welcoming new babies into it isn't appealing. Having children is the best thing I've ever done, but it is also the hardest. And parenting in a world full of technology and knowledge and a lack of a social safety net is incredibly difficult. My husband and I have had this conversation about the declining birth rate a lot, and neither of us has come to a strong conclusion.
I’d be so curious to hear your impressions of why this might be in Spain/ Europe at large. What’s the narrative in the media, and/ or how do people discuss it? I know why raising a child is hard in America, and long with envy at European social supports. I found: housing is still expensive, limited job markets, and for a lot of countries, out-migration of young people to other EU nations is a big factor. What am I missing?
I think the answer is complicated and incredibly nuanced. I can’t speak more broadly for Europe (I’ve only been in Spain about two years), but salaries here are some of the lowest in Europe. The average Spanish salary is something like €1,200/month, and what is considered a “high-paying” job is €60,000+.
Some things I think contribute: There’s a housing crisis throughout the country along with a large influx of immigrants. It’s quite common for young adults to stay “in the nest” until they’re in their late 20s/early 30s. They simply can’t afford to live on their own. Some choose to live with roommates in order to leave home. The unemployment rate for Spanish youth is really high, and many of the university-educated ones move away to the U.S., Germany, France, etc., to find work and better pay.
Spanish people tend to have children later than we do in the U.S. Moms are often first-time moms in their late 30s. They view dating a bit differently than we do, and they tend to marry later, which usually leads to having kids later. I can count on one hand the number of moms I’ve seen who are probably in their 20s. I’ve never seen a teen mom here.
Spanish media: I haven’t heard much said about the low birth rate by itself. I hear a lot about unemployment rates, salaries, housing costs, and food costs. Inflation is real here, too, and in Valencia, where I live, three years ago, you could get a very nice apartment in the trendy part of town for about €500-700 less per month than what we’re paying. Housing costs are a huge issue here, and it’s a perpetual topic. I see a lot of comments on social media about “Americans taking over,” and driving costs up, but in reality, Americans are a small percentage of the immigrant population. Americans are perceived as having a lot of wealth, so … that’s where the blame goes. But it is the Spanish landlords who set the prices.
I didn’t mean to write a book on this! But at the end of the day, despite all of the social safety nets, I think it comes down to a culture of having kids later, which usually naturally leads to less kids, and finances. It isn’t a lack of familial or social support that I can see.
I echo what everyone is saying about this format, love it! I alluded to this as a comment on the episode, but I didn't have a chance to collect my thoughts until now. It's in regards to family-friendly third spaces, which was another discussion point in the episode comments. One day I plan to work this into a Substack essay but for now I'll keep it to the following (which is still very long but worth sharing, I thought):
I know there are feelings about breweries as spaces where children are allowed, but my experience and belief is that if the brewery is committed to being family-friendly (and has the space for it), and people and their kids follow the rules, and the visit is at an appropriate time and parents are appropriately responsible, it can be great! My husband and I prefer our brewery experiences to be 21+ as well but sometimes, when we've exhausted all other activities, it's just something to do to get out of the house as a family -- we bring toys, games, puzzles and all hang for a drink or two (the adults), and get some food (adults + kids). It's a relatively inexpensive outing, there's usually an outdoor component, it's meant to be a gathering space, etc. Breweries/beer gardens/etc are generally family-friendly at appropriate times of the day in Europe too, and I've seen many a thinkpiece by Americans who travel to Europe who come back thinking how much more family-friendly of a place it is vs. the US.
ANYWHO, a local brewery recently posted their family policy/rules for kids + parents on Facebook, and it sparked a big discussion where the gist was millennial parents suck and their kids are demons and they have ruined the world for everyone. Nice!
One commenter, who happens to work at a different brewery, said the following: "I ran so fast to the comment section to hear all the armchair brewery GMs. This is a great way to address this NEBCO. Breweries are made to be a space for all. And most wouldn't still be in business if they didn't adapt this model. Millennial age parents are the reason craft beer was so popular, and now they have kids. You'd be turning away a huge amount of business to shun them from coming. As long as kids are being watched, it's not that big of a deal. If you don't want to see kids, stay home, or go to your local bar. There is a reason breweries are designed the way they are. To accommodate ALL. To be a community gathering space."
To which I replied in agreement. Then another commenter replied to me with this: "You are bringing your kids to an adult place where adults should be free from your kids...Shame on you. Leave the kids at home or find an appropriate place. Read the room."
And as the Michael Jordan meme goes... well, I took that personally. So I had a back and forth with this dude, who I confirmed is not a parent. He was not having it. This was his crowning achievement of a comment, and it's quite something that I think may speak to general attitudes regarding children being visible and present in places advertised as family friendly:
"You bring your offspring to breweries. I don’t need to know more about your ‘parenting’ than that. Read the room, soak in the comments on this post and all the people that find what you are doing obnoxious.
Stop playing the main character and thinking ‘but I do it right!’. You don’t. If you did, your kids wouldn’t be in a brewery or bar. You have friendlys, you have Chuck E. Cheese. You have diners and McDonalds play places. You have all the places that are kid appropriate to bring them.
But you choose to bring them to an adult establishment to annoy the adults. Because they are ornaments to you. You decorate yourself with them and go out in public to play the character that you want the NPCs to see you as.
But you are actually being seen as that awful person who is sitting in a brewery with two little kids. And everyone around you, while they may not say it, and they might be polite about it, lest you freak out and have a Karen moment like you are having in text right now; they think you are being awful. And that is awful that our culture has allowed you to be deceived like that. I know you will continue to do whatever you want, because that is how you operate. But society is telling you to knock it off. A good parent and a responsible adult would heed that call and be introspective. After all, that is what you would want your kids to do, right?"
These are the attitudes that frighten me. You don't want to have kids, fine. You don't particularly like kids, fine. But their seems to be such hostility towards kids in the US, and I find it disturbing. And also, breweries are loud, have outdoor spaces, often lots of dogs and things like games. I don't think kids are going to ruin the experience they way they might at a fine dining establishment.
Exactly!!!!!! And to be honest, this particular brewery SHOULD be 21+ at all times. we generally avoid it unless its just me and my husband because it gets super crowded and doesn't have a lot of open space. It's also one of oldest in the area, so there's a lot of the "old" craft beer crowd where these attitudes are more prevalent, in my opinion.
truly unhinged!! And my talking points throughout were -- this is a business decision from the brewery, and I can assure you most parents follow the rules, and its a shame when people don't and ruin it for everyone else. He was not having any of it.
I just want to clarify- I do not think that *y'all* are advocating for women to have more children! I was referring to the handwringing from the right about women being 'underbabied' and all the accompanying nonsense. (But I'm pretty sure y'all know that, lol.) I also wish that pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting were more supported in all the ways. I was just looking at data from March of Dimes yesterday about maternity care deserts and thinking what the hell are we doing to ourselves as a country: https://www.marchofdimes.org/maternity-care-deserts-report.
About only children. My kiddo is an only child, and I have some sadness around that, but the only part that truly worries me is when he's an adult caring for us without sibling support. Thankfully we have a lot of time to prepare for that, financially and community-building wise.
(But truthfully, let's be real, as an eldest daughter with three siblings in a multiple-times-divorced family, I fully expect to manage my parents' and maybe even step-parents' care as they age largely on my own with the support of my husband. I don't expect my siblings to step up financially, physically, or logistically, though they may surprise me! But my experience so far says don't get my hopes up...)
Ditto on I’m glad PP is discussing this - we can’t cede this discussion to the right-wing/ eugenics pronatalist crowd. Because ew.
Adding to the maternity care deserts are OB/ GYNs fleeing states with abortion laws that restrict them providing all kinds of care. Seriously, what are we doing. 🤦♀️
I have one daughter, an only child. I feel overwhelmed with guilt sometimes that she doesn’t have a sibling. But my husband and I agree that our family feels complete. Plus, pregnancy and postpartum were SO hard for me. We both work full time in public education. We finally bought our first home, a teeny-tiny little condo that only fits 3. I grew up in a difficult family where I was the oldest child and my parents didn’t have enough love to go around.
So I get stuck between feeling guilty for only having one child, and only having one child because I love her so much that I truly don’t want any more.
I love being an only child. I'm baffled by sibling dynamics; I like choosing who to hang with instead of being forced to live with someone simply because we came from the same parent.
Your daughter is lucky to have such a devoted mom! And she'll probably still find something about her childhood to complain about. At least she won't have siblings to squabble with.
I feel you on the only child thing. I'm pretty content with our family of 3. I think I'm on the other side of the guilt at this point, but I'll probably always wonder what it would have been like to have another one.
I am surprised surviving childhood abuse and neglect hasn’t been brought up as a reason people decide not to have their own children. There are so many people who grew up in horrific situations that they are still recovering from. Many of them decide not to have children because they spend their lifetimes recovering from that abuse, poverty, neglect and so on. For a lot of them, simply keeping themselves alive is a feat of its own.
I realized listening to this episode that i was absolutely raised to be 100% aware that i was first and foremost a burden. Consequently, just the idea of being along in a room with anyone under the age of 10 sounds like torture to me, i guess I really absorbed the idea that children = burden. The good news is i stopped talking to my parents when i was 18 so wherever they are i am also free of the burden of caring for aging parents! (This is not a sympathy seeking post! More that im still surprised that in my mid 50s i still can't fathom anyone having a baby on purpose, i can't wrap my head around it and ive never thought much about why, i always just assumed i wasnt born with the "babies are cute" gene ;)
Thank you for this! I had thoughts and feelings as a 40 year old single childless woman about the episode, but honestly it made me want to be kinder to my brother and sister in law who have decided to only have one child. I am from a family of 4 kids and my sister in law a family of 3 kids so it was surprising to hear their decision and sad to think of my niece not having siblings, but I need to allow their decision to be their own and not put my perspective as a single person in the mix
I have an only child (25yo son) and I know he regrets our choice. It was not so much a plan but just how life worked out. Curiously his longtime girlfriend is also an only. Will be interesting to see what happens when they make their "plans". But I also know that siblings do not always live up to the hype when it comes to connection and caretaking - no guarantees. But like Beth pregnancy really sucked. Maybe if life was less stressful and I started younger it would have been easier and I would have more than one child but maybe if ne divorced.
Every time I encounter discussions about birthrates I think about the adaptation comment left by Ashley. If we change the ways we live and work then lower birthrates aren't a crisis and they might make it sustainable for more people to have more children.
I thought about your post numerous times during my week. I echo many of the sentiments that others have shared. And then, last evening, my husband was talking at the dinner table about one of his married friends who does not have children. Our 15 and 12 year old boys were present. He made a comment about how since they don’t have kids they have the ability to go places we don’t. “ouch” I say internally but my 12 yo says quickly “well when you retire. “ I then speak up and share that I do not see anything as missing out, it’s a choice for the moment and we do get to do a lot of things. Which is very true, our kids have experiences and have gone many places. While we do not go too many places as a couple sans kids, we have. It’s a choice. My super power is not vacation deal planning. I do okay, but I do think it is a skill to find deals. We are a dual income home and my choice to be finished with having kids after two took into account my mental and financial bandwidth for all that goes into raising humans. It’s not a negative view on those factors just reality that I feel responsibility in HOW I want to parent. I understand my strengths and my husband’s. As my kids grow older I do wonder about fostering. A former neighbor was a foster to adopt and she spent so much time at our house. I enjoyed when she was over and at times it did feel like she was part of the family. All this to say your post and last night’s mealtime convo reinforce how important I find it to reflect and be aware of perspectives and how those are communicated to my kids. They are developing their own narrative about child rearing and norms that will shape the next generation.
Agree with the tech comment. Many people I know would love to be partnered/having children, but just haven’t met anyone. I honestly don’t know how I would meet someone if I were looking right now.
I didn't have kids because I didn't want to have kids. And I made that decision sometime in second or third grade and stuck with it. I personally think I'd be a great mom, but of all the decisions I've made throughout my lifetime, I've never regretted that one for even one second.
On technology… After a very brief stint downloading an app in my younger 20’s, I just refuse to use dating apps.
Recently, though, I have very slowly been interacting more with a guy at my church. I help with the Spanish service and he works there (not as a pastor).
Last weekend, in our first conversation not-only-about service-related stuff, I told him I would be gone this weekend, so one thing might not be done. He said he would look out for it. Then he asked if I was going somewhere, and I said to the Twin Cities for a concert. Then he asked who it was. I said “Yebba…. It’s Abbey spelled backwards.” And he said “I’ll have to check it out.” I told him that one of her big songs is “Evergreen.” And he says, “That’s interesting. There are a couple groups with songs named Evergreen.” He listed one band and couldn’t recall the other group at the moment. He was interested to see how this Evergreen would be. Anyway, we chatted a bit more and he talked about how he would see me in 2 weeks, and hoped I had a good time.
I was just floored by someone immediately saying they would check out her music without any details or knowledge of my (eclectic) taste in music. A lot of her songs are desperately sad and not exactly “church music” if that’s what he’s going for. And I have to wait 2 weeks (closer to 1 now) to find out if he listened to her and what he thinks. 😂 Which I kind of love! I don’t know if he has any social media, but I appreciate knowing nothing about him and having to find out more naturally in-person.
Both of my parents are only children! My mom always wanted 3 children, because 2 is too close to 1. Haha.
My mom actually has multiple good friends who are only children. Those are people with capacity to have friends beyond their family!
My mom grew up with both her parents and a bachelor uncle on the farm. So, essentially 3 parents to 1 child! My dad’s dad died when he was a senior in HS, but his mom lived to be 90. Caregiving for all those parental figures was a lot.
Also, none of my grandparents were young parents. I am the middle child and almost 34. Of my 4 grandparents, 2 were born in 1905 and 1 was born in 1909. I don’t understand close generations. Or aunts/uncles/first cousins. 😂
I’m late to the party but I wanted to chime in. First, I was late having my first child and now I really wish I had started sooner. But sooner would have been in the middle of the pandemic and I remember thinking NOPE I don’t want to bring a kid into this. Even though I wish I would have started earlier, my nieces are getting married at 19 and 20 years old and want to have kids right away and have their husbands take over all the finances. And I’m so sad that they won’t have the opportunity to go out and figure out how to live life on their own just a little bit. I know my parents generation married super young and had babies super young and then ended up divorced before they were 30. I think that definitely impacted me getting married and having kids later. But point taken about kids starting to feel like a luxury good. Y’all know how much car seats cost these days?? A lot of freaking money. Not to mention the cost of childcare. I agree with what you said about the reasons being both cultural and economic. Also on Beth’s comment about not enjoying pregnancy—I was thinking that is the one thing that has not changed—the physical toll it takes on women. Pregnancy and childbirth are hard on a person’s body. That is not going to change!
I found this conversation fascinating. I have two children, debated having a third, and ultimately did not. In our case, it was a combination of finances, lack of a strong support system, and a desire to not go through another high-risk pregnancy.
We moved abroad from the U.S. to Spain, and I can clearly see the cultural differences in how children are perceived. Here, people just generally take their kids along to go wherever they're going. Families are very involved in one another's lives. There's a strong support system at nearly every level, including childcare, universal healthcare, etc.
And still, the Spanish birth rate is incredibly low.
I think the answer is multilayered, but when the world feels like it's burning down around you, I can understand why the idea of welcoming new babies into it isn't appealing. Having children is the best thing I've ever done, but it is also the hardest. And parenting in a world full of technology and knowledge and a lack of a social safety net is incredibly difficult. My husband and I have had this conversation about the declining birth rate a lot, and neither of us has come to a strong conclusion.
I’d be so curious to hear your impressions of why this might be in Spain/ Europe at large. What’s the narrative in the media, and/ or how do people discuss it? I know why raising a child is hard in America, and long with envy at European social supports. I found: housing is still expensive, limited job markets, and for a lot of countries, out-migration of young people to other EU nations is a big factor. What am I missing?
I think the answer is complicated and incredibly nuanced. I can’t speak more broadly for Europe (I’ve only been in Spain about two years), but salaries here are some of the lowest in Europe. The average Spanish salary is something like €1,200/month, and what is considered a “high-paying” job is €60,000+.
Some things I think contribute: There’s a housing crisis throughout the country along with a large influx of immigrants. It’s quite common for young adults to stay “in the nest” until they’re in their late 20s/early 30s. They simply can’t afford to live on their own. Some choose to live with roommates in order to leave home. The unemployment rate for Spanish youth is really high, and many of the university-educated ones move away to the U.S., Germany, France, etc., to find work and better pay.
Spanish people tend to have children later than we do in the U.S. Moms are often first-time moms in their late 30s. They view dating a bit differently than we do, and they tend to marry later, which usually leads to having kids later. I can count on one hand the number of moms I’ve seen who are probably in their 20s. I’ve never seen a teen mom here.
Spanish media: I haven’t heard much said about the low birth rate by itself. I hear a lot about unemployment rates, salaries, housing costs, and food costs. Inflation is real here, too, and in Valencia, where I live, three years ago, you could get a very nice apartment in the trendy part of town for about €500-700 less per month than what we’re paying. Housing costs are a huge issue here, and it’s a perpetual topic. I see a lot of comments on social media about “Americans taking over,” and driving costs up, but in reality, Americans are a small percentage of the immigrant population. Americans are perceived as having a lot of wealth, so … that’s where the blame goes. But it is the Spanish landlords who set the prices.
I didn’t mean to write a book on this! But at the end of the day, despite all of the social safety nets, I think it comes down to a culture of having kids later, which usually naturally leads to less kids, and finances. It isn’t a lack of familial or social support that I can see.
I echo what everyone is saying about this format, love it! I alluded to this as a comment on the episode, but I didn't have a chance to collect my thoughts until now. It's in regards to family-friendly third spaces, which was another discussion point in the episode comments. One day I plan to work this into a Substack essay but for now I'll keep it to the following (which is still very long but worth sharing, I thought):
I know there are feelings about breweries as spaces where children are allowed, but my experience and belief is that if the brewery is committed to being family-friendly (and has the space for it), and people and their kids follow the rules, and the visit is at an appropriate time and parents are appropriately responsible, it can be great! My husband and I prefer our brewery experiences to be 21+ as well but sometimes, when we've exhausted all other activities, it's just something to do to get out of the house as a family -- we bring toys, games, puzzles and all hang for a drink or two (the adults), and get some food (adults + kids). It's a relatively inexpensive outing, there's usually an outdoor component, it's meant to be a gathering space, etc. Breweries/beer gardens/etc are generally family-friendly at appropriate times of the day in Europe too, and I've seen many a thinkpiece by Americans who travel to Europe who come back thinking how much more family-friendly of a place it is vs. the US.
ANYWHO, a local brewery recently posted their family policy/rules for kids + parents on Facebook, and it sparked a big discussion where the gist was millennial parents suck and their kids are demons and they have ruined the world for everyone. Nice!
One commenter, who happens to work at a different brewery, said the following: "I ran so fast to the comment section to hear all the armchair brewery GMs. This is a great way to address this NEBCO. Breweries are made to be a space for all. And most wouldn't still be in business if they didn't adapt this model. Millennial age parents are the reason craft beer was so popular, and now they have kids. You'd be turning away a huge amount of business to shun them from coming. As long as kids are being watched, it's not that big of a deal. If you don't want to see kids, stay home, or go to your local bar. There is a reason breweries are designed the way they are. To accommodate ALL. To be a community gathering space."
To which I replied in agreement. Then another commenter replied to me with this: "You are bringing your kids to an adult place where adults should be free from your kids...Shame on you. Leave the kids at home or find an appropriate place. Read the room."
And as the Michael Jordan meme goes... well, I took that personally. So I had a back and forth with this dude, who I confirmed is not a parent. He was not having it. This was his crowning achievement of a comment, and it's quite something that I think may speak to general attitudes regarding children being visible and present in places advertised as family friendly:
"You bring your offspring to breweries. I don’t need to know more about your ‘parenting’ than that. Read the room, soak in the comments on this post and all the people that find what you are doing obnoxious.
Stop playing the main character and thinking ‘but I do it right!’. You don’t. If you did, your kids wouldn’t be in a brewery or bar. You have friendlys, you have Chuck E. Cheese. You have diners and McDonalds play places. You have all the places that are kid appropriate to bring them.
But you choose to bring them to an adult establishment to annoy the adults. Because they are ornaments to you. You decorate yourself with them and go out in public to play the character that you want the NPCs to see you as.
But you are actually being seen as that awful person who is sitting in a brewery with two little kids. And everyone around you, while they may not say it, and they might be polite about it, lest you freak out and have a Karen moment like you are having in text right now; they think you are being awful. And that is awful that our culture has allowed you to be deceived like that. I know you will continue to do whatever you want, because that is how you operate. But society is telling you to knock it off. A good parent and a responsible adult would heed that call and be introspective. After all, that is what you would want your kids to do, right?"
... Yikes, right?
These are the attitudes that frighten me. You don't want to have kids, fine. You don't particularly like kids, fine. But their seems to be such hostility towards kids in the US, and I find it disturbing. And also, breweries are loud, have outdoor spaces, often lots of dogs and things like games. I don't think kids are going to ruin the experience they way they might at a fine dining establishment.
Exactly!!!!!! And to be honest, this particular brewery SHOULD be 21+ at all times. we generally avoid it unless its just me and my husband because it gets super crowded and doesn't have a lot of open space. It's also one of oldest in the area, so there's a lot of the "old" craft beer crowd where these attitudes are more prevalent, in my opinion.
“They are ornaments to you.” Seriously?? What an unhinged comment. Ugh.
truly unhinged!! And my talking points throughout were -- this is a business decision from the brewery, and I can assure you most parents follow the rules, and its a shame when people don't and ruin it for everyone else. He was not having any of it.
Just, 😳.
right?!!!
I just want to clarify- I do not think that *y'all* are advocating for women to have more children! I was referring to the handwringing from the right about women being 'underbabied' and all the accompanying nonsense. (But I'm pretty sure y'all know that, lol.) I also wish that pregnancy, childbirth, and parenting were more supported in all the ways. I was just looking at data from March of Dimes yesterday about maternity care deserts and thinking what the hell are we doing to ourselves as a country: https://www.marchofdimes.org/maternity-care-deserts-report.
About only children. My kiddo is an only child, and I have some sadness around that, but the only part that truly worries me is when he's an adult caring for us without sibling support. Thankfully we have a lot of time to prepare for that, financially and community-building wise.
(But truthfully, let's be real, as an eldest daughter with three siblings in a multiple-times-divorced family, I fully expect to manage my parents' and maybe even step-parents' care as they age largely on my own with the support of my husband. I don't expect my siblings to step up financially, physically, or logistically, though they may surprise me! But my experience so far says don't get my hopes up...)
Ditto on I’m glad PP is discussing this - we can’t cede this discussion to the right-wing/ eugenics pronatalist crowd. Because ew.
Adding to the maternity care deserts are OB/ GYNs fleeing states with abortion laws that restrict them providing all kinds of care. Seriously, what are we doing. 🤦♀️
I love this way of selecting and responding to a few comments! There were SO many!
I have one daughter, an only child. I feel overwhelmed with guilt sometimes that she doesn’t have a sibling. But my husband and I agree that our family feels complete. Plus, pregnancy and postpartum were SO hard for me. We both work full time in public education. We finally bought our first home, a teeny-tiny little condo that only fits 3. I grew up in a difficult family where I was the oldest child and my parents didn’t have enough love to go around.
So I get stuck between feeling guilty for only having one child, and only having one child because I love her so much that I truly don’t want any more.
I love being an only child. I'm baffled by sibling dynamics; I like choosing who to hang with instead of being forced to live with someone simply because we came from the same parent.
Your daughter is lucky to have such a devoted mom! And she'll probably still find something about her childhood to complain about. At least she won't have siblings to squabble with.
I feel you on the only child thing. I'm pretty content with our family of 3. I think I'm on the other side of the guilt at this point, but I'll probably always wonder what it would have been like to have another one.
Selfish reasons to have more kids was a great book we enjoyed that eased a lot of the pressure on what being good parents looks like
I am surprised surviving childhood abuse and neglect hasn’t been brought up as a reason people decide not to have their own children. There are so many people who grew up in horrific situations that they are still recovering from. Many of them decide not to have children because they spend their lifetimes recovering from that abuse, poverty, neglect and so on. For a lot of them, simply keeping themselves alive is a feat of its own.
I realized listening to this episode that i was absolutely raised to be 100% aware that i was first and foremost a burden. Consequently, just the idea of being along in a room with anyone under the age of 10 sounds like torture to me, i guess I really absorbed the idea that children = burden. The good news is i stopped talking to my parents when i was 18 so wherever they are i am also free of the burden of caring for aging parents! (This is not a sympathy seeking post! More that im still surprised that in my mid 50s i still can't fathom anyone having a baby on purpose, i can't wrap my head around it and ive never thought much about why, i always just assumed i wasnt born with the "babies are cute" gene ;)