The Results Are In: Buckle Up

Sarah and Beth reflect on the reelection of Donald Trump.

It’s a long episode today as Sarah and Beth reflect on the reelection of Donald Trump, what got us here, what comes next, and what this means for us as individual Americans.

Plus, they talk about Jason Kelce and the trouble with filming celebrities.

TOPICS DISCUSSED

• Processing the Reelection of Donald Trump

• The Path Ahead

• Outside of Politics: Jason Kelce

This podcast and every episode of it are wholly owned by Pantsuit Politics LLC and are protected by US and international copyright, trademark, and other intellectual property laws. We hope you'll listen to it, love it, and share it with other people, but not with large language models or machines and not for commercial purposes. Thanks for keeping it nuanced with us.

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.

Sarah [00:00:29] Thanks for being here. We are here for our first episode after the 2024 election, where Donald Trump won in a decisive victory over Kamala Harris. Republicans took control of the Senate and we are still waiting for the results of which party will take control of the House. Beth, it feels good to be here in person recording together for this very impactful moment.

Beth [00:00:51] Yes, our sound quality is going to be a little different than what you normally hear because we are in our Boston hotel room. But it is nice to be in person together. We say all the time together is what we have and we have it today in an even more present, energetic way. And I hope that you all can feel as you're listening like you're in the room with us, too.

Sarah [00:01:10] And if you want to be together in other ways with each other, our Substack community has really been showing up in the last few days. It just feels like a DM. It just feels like a group chat, like a really good Instagram DM group or a phone group chat in the chat where everyone's just showing up saying what they're feeling. You can reply that, you can start a new thread. That's where I'll start to go when I need something to do on my phone.

Beth [00:01:36] Well, people are sharing a lot of photos too, which really changes the conversation and it just feels like people are really vibing there and I enjoy it. I find it very uplifting and I'm so appreciative of all of you who've decided we're going to make this thing happen here. So if you want to be with people who are doers like that, get involved on our Substack.

Sarah [00:01:56] All right. Next up, let's talk about the election.

[00:01:57] Music Interlude.

[00:02:07] Beth, we did a live together on Substack at about 9:00 Eastern, 8:00 Central. It was not an uplifting chat because I think at that point we both could see the writing on the wall. When it didn't start flowing in and she was blowing it out, I thought we're done.

Beth [00:02:26] Yeah, I think we both knew where it was headed on that live. In retrospect, wouldn't do it again. I mean, I loved being with everybody, but it's that in-between time when you really don't know. And so you got a lot of people who want to keep the optimism and you don't want to be a person who throws in the towel too early in the evening. But we were also just seeing the numbers and understanding how much bigger her numbers needed to be even in the rural states that she was going to lose. She needed bigger numbers coming out of those states to indicate where the trends were going. And so I think we both just felt it settling in. It's why we were like I'm going to bed. I'll deal with this tomorrow.

Sarah [00:03:07] And I had already thought, like, do I want to watch any of this? I don't think I'll do that again. I don't need to watch Steve Kornacki. I just want to know. And there is a part of me on Thursday as we're recording that I'm just glad it's over. That's what I needed more than anything else, to be honest with you. I needed it to be over. I could not live in that space with the tie and the tie poll and then this and then that. It was affecting my mental health. I was like on the edge of a panic attack several times on Election Day. I had to do my alternative nostril breathing just to get my nervous system to take it down from the 13 it had about apparently settled on. And so I was like I'm just going to go to bed. At this point, I just want it to be over.

Beth [00:03:51] I went to bed and then I also woke up in the middle of the night and considered looking at my phone and I just decided I'm not going to do that. There is nothing to be gained right now from that. I'm going to get the sleep I can get because that's important. I think that sometimes watching it feels like you're contributing, but you're not. You're just watching. It's great to care. It's not great to tear yourself up in knots. And the other thing that's not great is to prematurely reach conclusions about what happened. I feel like there is such a rush to describe what happened instead of just taking a minute to be like, well, let's see what actually happened, what the facts are before I start to make meaning of the facts.

Sarah [00:04:32] There's a famous story I think I told on the podcast before, I don't remember, but my mother talks about when I was an infant that she would listen and she felt like I was too quiet in my room sleeping when I was like a newborn and she would think, should I go check on her? Well, if she's dead I'll need my sleep to deal with that. This is the thing my mother told me. And so I think I have really put that in myself. If it's bad news you're going to sleep to deal with it, so go back to bed. Because I definitely woke up in the middle of the night and was like, no, I'm going to sleep. But then when I woke up in the morning, Nicholas came in and woke me up and told me, which is how it happened in 2016 as well. And honestly, I didn't cry until I talked to Griffin. I think I was upset for Griffin. I didn't cry when Nicholas told me. I had a few moments of-- and I mean a few minutes, not very long-- of shock, oh my gosh, by such a margin. And then I just got very quickly to a place of I knew this. I knew this was going to happen. Like just my cellular level just settled into you've been slow rolling this; we've been watching this for nine years. This is, if not expected, not the surprise it was in 2016. That's for sure.

Beth [00:05:57] I didn't get anywhere quickly yesterday. I didn't speak much yesterday. Very few words came out of my mouth all day yesterday, which was helpful to me. I got my kids off to school, and because Jane wasn't feeling well I brought her home from school about an hour after she left. And Ellen woke up kind of grumpy, so I was just kind of in it with them. And once they were gone, I was quiet. I did not speak to Chad about it until he drove me to the airport around lunchtime yesterday because I think he knew that I needed a minute and I really, really did.

Sarah [00:06:32] And we didn't talk either. We didn't text.

Beth [00:06:34] No, we didn't. I just kind of sealed myself off from the world yesterday with apologies to everyone whose text message I did not respond to. I just needed a minute, and I was grateful to be on an airplane and to be by myself in a hotel and to just kind of let it all process because a bunch of things are true at once for me. I am so sad because I voted for her, not against Trump. I really, really liked her. I really think she would have been a good president. And so I am sad. Every time I watched her speak, I thought, I just want this. I want this for us and for me and for my daughters and all of us. I really want this. And then the second thing that's true is that I also want to be really clear-eyed. I want to move through devastated fast and get to what can I understand about this? What can I learn from it? Who do I want to be now? And so it's hard to know how to hold both of those things at one time. And I think having a really quiet day helped me process the conflict between those two things.

Sarah [00:07:41] I talked a lot. I talked to Nicholas. I talked to my friends on Marco Polo. I was so grateful to be in an airport. I love an airport. I love an airport. I think there is nothing better than being swept up in the humanity of an airport, truly. And so just to be out moving through the world and watching everybody just go about their normal business, I think is such a tonic. And that's definitely how I felt it yesterday. It felt really good just to be around the TSA agents and the waitresses at the restaurants and everybody just trying to get their kids to the gate and all the business travelers. I just really, really enjoyed it. And I saw a couple of MAGA hats here and there and I just thought, yeah, this is it. I was in such a good cross-section of America to a certain extent in a way that I find really comforting. I don't feel like I'm in a bubble, even though I guess I sort of am at the airport. And so I love being there. I did a lot of talking with all my friends.

[00:08:41] And I think the reason- I know nobody likes Nate Silver, [inaudible] tell me every time I bring him up. But I have this really great metaphor that in athletics, in a sports event, that if you if you feel like your team really battled hard and there were just like some unfair calls, it's devastating. But if you feel like your team came in early and just never put a point on the board, you're like, well, we just didn't have it this time, right? And I think that's how the difference between 2016 and 2020 for me. In 2016, I just felt like there were a lot of unlucky breaks in a really unfair way. I think it's still true for 2024 obviously, but not unlucky. Real challenges for her that she did not choose. But I think the fact that it was over so early really prevented me from feeling that sense of unfairness. I'm an Enneagram one, justice is really motivation for me. And so I think because I didn't feel that sense of unfairness or bad calls or whatever, that it was definitive.

[00:09:54] America in every place and every demographic just moved to the right. They just did. And I think, again, I'd known that. One of our listeners pointed out when I was in a really dark place on one of our Spicy Lives a few weeks ago, like, it feels like Sarah is going through some stuff that she's not articulating. And I'm like, yeah, you're right. There's been some real dissatisfaction with me as a lifelong Democrat with Democratic politics. And so I think this was just the breaking moment. I was like, okay, yeah, so what I've been feeling is I'm not alone and just kind of letting that settle. Because I'm not going to join the MAGA hat, that's not what I mean. But just some dissatisfaction and frustration and it was like in those movies in the Marvel movie where all the pieces just come together go click. I think that's what happened to me. And so it just felt so different than the last time.

Beth [00:10:57] The only note that I would make there is that we moved toward Trump, not necessarily to the right. I think the right is defining itself and it's constantly redefining itself and reorienting itself to whatever Trump is doing. But if you look down ballot, you see some bright spots for Democrats, even in states that went for Trump pretty decisively, even in some very tough races. And you see people voting on issues in a way that reflects the traditional politics of the Democratic Party more. So I don't think much of this is really about policy as much as it's about Trump and Trump embodying something about where people are right now.

Sarah [00:11:39] I understand what you're saying. I think if you look at marijuana initiatives, you could make that argument. I just don't think that belongs to the Democrats anymore. I think they see that as belonging to both parties, and I think they're pretty much right. So that's not something that people you know, it's a two party system. If you're not moving to the left, you're moving to the right. And I don't think that's a left issue anymore. I was listening to people talking about abortion. So people are voting for abortion referendums and then voting for Trump. And they're like they see him as distant from that. And you guys, that's true. Nobody within the sound of my voice is going to argue that Donald Trump is some dyed in the wool pro-life person. No, we all know that's not true. So why are we mad at them for saying it. We know that's not true? And so in that case, I think you're right. Okay, well, what does the right mean if it's Trump? Yes, they're just leaning towards Trump and they're saying he's not pro-life. We all know that.

Beth [00:12:41] Yes. I think the huge question mark right now about this, I think this question is unresolved because it will depend on how he steps up.

Sarah [00:12:49] Yeah.

Beth [00:12:50] Because he (I think everybody also knows) doesn't care about policy. And so it depends very, very much on how he steps up.

Sarah [00:12:59] But to the overall question of where is America going, right or left? I'm not really talking about policy to a certain extent. What I used to tell people is that I was a Democrat because I preferred to blame those in power than to blame those without power. And what did that mean in the early aughts of the 90s? It meant I'm not going to talk about welfare queens. I'm going to blame the people at the highest levels of power in our government and corporations and say they're the ones that are pulling the levers and they're the ones responsible for the problems. And I think over the last nine years, that narrative has been reversed. Now, you can argue about the policies and whether those are true in the impact. But right now I think the majority of Americans hear Donald Trump and the Republican Party blaming those in power for their problems. It's the swamp. It's the establishment, it's the media, it's the people with power that are responsible for your problems. And I think fairly or not, they hear Democrats blaming everybody else.

[00:14:09] It's the deplorables. It's the racist, sexist people at the bottom. It's these Trump voters, these people who just why can't we convince you to care? Like, why don't you care? Why do you hate everyone? What's wrong with you? I think that's the narrative. Not from Kamala Harris or her campaign, obviously. I'm talking about a macro narrative that Democrats say everything is broken and it's the people at the bottom that are a part of it. And the people at the top which are largely us sometimes are going to improve things at the margins. But that's about it. And so that's what I mean. I think it's that macro narrative, that switch that it used to be power to the people and people moved to the right because that's where they heard that message. Fairly or not, do I think it's great to tell America you're never responsible for your own problems? No, I don't. But I do and just that hit me like that's what I used to tell people. And I don't think I could tell people that anymore.

Beth [00:15:24] So a hard take that I've been wrestling with because I know that this could be hurtful to people, and I do not want to be hurtful to people especially at a time when a lot of people are struggling. A hard take that I have been thinking about is that because the Democratic Party has had to be the umbrella for so many different constituencies in the Trump era, and because so many of us who are under that umbrella care a lot about democracy, which is just not a thing that people who aren't into politics spend a second talking about, I feel like we are distant from America's limbic system. This morning I wrote down that I think Trump is America's esthetic, but I don't think that's exactly it. I think it's deeper than that. I think he's the limbic system. I don't think people think Trump has a plan to address shoplifting or homelessness or all the ways in which people are frustrated with the cost of living. I don't think anyone reasonably thinks Trump has really got a good, tight plan to deal with this. But they feel that he feels what they feel right. It is the limbic system. It is like he's at least frustrated the way that I'm frustrated. And there's fairness in the frustration.

[00:16:43] And I think that it's really hard to say I get your frustration, but also we're joyful and also we're democracy warriors and also Trump is the worst. It's too complex a message because the Democratic Party has to speak to so many constituencies. And I think that people like me within that constituency reinforce the limbic system feeling about Democrats because we bring a lot of A student energy to elections. I think that there needs to be a hard discussion about the way campaigns operate. Since Trump appeared on the scene, it has not mattered that Democrats get out the vote operation is superior. It has not mattered at all. And I wonder if the postcards and the door knocks and the texting and the phone banking all reinforce this A student energy at a time when a lot of America wants to shove us in our lockers. You know what I mean? People want to be mostly left alone and that's hard. How do you reach them in those circumstances? I don't know. I'm not intending to criticize people who'd left it on the field, did their very best to get Kamala Harris selected. I'm saying at the highest levels of how you run a campaign, these strategies aren't winning. What will win now?

Sarah [00:17:59] I listened to the Pod Save American guys, and they rightfully pointed it out because I was very much in that place. Like if this doesn't matter, we need to have a conversation. And there are shifts like in the States where they didn't campaign at all, the numbers are worse than in Pennsylvania. So they closed a gap using some of these strategies. So I don't want to discard them altogether. But I do think that there is this sense-- and I have these moments over the last few days where I realize I'm really trying to listen to my 15 year old guys. You say it all times. Like more from Griffin [inaudible] and Griffin said it was just diet Trump. All the vision was a lot of the same, but not Trump. He's like what's to vote for there? And I think he's right. And I think we spent a year saying don't worry about Clintons. And you guys know I love Bill Clinton deeply, but we spent a lot of years saying don't worry about his moral failings, pay attention that he speaks to you, that he listens. It's hard for me to accept that Donald Trump goes out on the campaign trail watching the snippets I watch and people feel heard. But that is clearly what's happening.

[00:19:17] And I think it was probably hard for people to accept that Bill Clinton went out with his moral failings and spoke as some, you know, liberal activist does, that that's how they saw him and people felt hurt. But that was true like political communication. When it hits, you just have to take it seriously. Right. So I think, like and I think about American carnage and how we were all like, that's so weird. That's so detached. What a weird thing to do. But is that any less dark than telling people that we have systemic issues in our country, it was founded on an original sin that we'll never get past? Is that any less dark of a message? I'm not really sure it is. So where was the difference? Where was the contrast that we were-- again I'm a Democrat since I was 18. I feel like it's my moment and I can criticize if I want to. And I keep thinking back about what were we offering except for he's the worst and he's a fascist and he's a Nazi. And if you vote for him, you are too. And that is not a winning message, as we saw.

[00:20:24] I think you're right. I think people want to feel heard. And I know it's hard to think that this man makes them feel understood. That he's going out to farmers and they're feeling like this real estate tycoon understands them. But we have to take the results seriously and that's clearly what's happening. People feel seen and heard. And the other thing I just thought about that I'm embarrassed that it really crystallized for me after nine years, is that we think people step into the voting booth with all the information about Donald Trump that we have. That they've been mainlining every error, flub, con, legal ramification for nine years-- but they have not. They have not. So I think the idea that the hard reality is America chose this, they chose the adjudicated rapist and the felon. But people didn't know Joe Biden had dropped out, you guys. What do you think they understand about Donald Trump? We have to accept that. We have to accept that people are not in the same media environment. And if we are the people who care, if we are the people who are empathetic, then we are the people who care and listen and are empathetic all the time. Not some of the time. We don't just love our country when we win, right? Isn't that the message?

Beth [00:21:51] I think there were real contrasts substantively and stylistically between these two candidates. I do think the Harris campaign offered something quite different than Trump. I understand the way that you're articulating Griffin's perspective. I just disagree. I think they ran a superb campaign. I'm not saying they shouldn't have done anything that they did or that the people who worked with them to write the postcards and knock the doors did anything wrong. That is not what I'm saying.

Sarah [00:22:17] Agreed.

Beth [00:22:18] I think she played a superb hand that was a loser from the beginning.

Sarah [00:22:23] Absolutely.

Beth [00:22:24] And that she did it superbly. And if I could sit down and speak to her, I would say thank you. You crushed it. You were fantastic. I hope you sleep so soundly. And I believe she knows all that and she is.

Sarah [00:22:35] Absolutely.

Beth [00:22:36] And I think everybody on the campaign should feel that same way. I think Trump won this campaign. I think he won by being the limbic system. I also think he won by assembling his version of The Avengers. Democrats love to say that about their side. We've got Pete and Beyoncé and everybody. And you do and it's fantastic. Trump understood this time that he couldn't do this alone. You know he didn't like inviting Elon Musk on stage with him. He doesn't want to share the stage with Robert F Kennedy Jr. He understood that he needed to give people an outlet for whatever they were feeling, and he brought those guys on his team and he stepped back a teeny bit. And so I believe that a lot of the people that we said are unlikely to show up and vote showed up to vote not just for Donald Trump, but showed up for Elon Musk and for Robert f Kennedy jr. He reached that demographic that doesn't show up in a very unconventional way. And you got to give him credit for it.

Sarah [00:23:36] Yeah. No, this is not a criticism of this campaign. But the thing I read in Axios, and it was like the morning of the election, it was like she's been running for 100 days and he's been running for nine years. There's this expression of business as the glass cliff, right? We hire the woman to come in when the company's already in trouble. That's exactly what happened here. She was giving an impossible task. I'm not mad at her for one second. Am I mad Joe Biden for running for a second term? Absolutely. Do I think we would have been here if we'd had a primary where people could have gone out into Iowa and New Hampshire and South Carolina and felt viscerally what people were going through and we would have picked-- now, listen, I'm going to be real honest. Do I think maybe she'd have made it out of that primary? I don't know.

Beth [00:24:19] I don't know either. It would have been good for everybody to know.

Sarah [00:24:24] It would have been good for everybody. And so that was the loss. But we're not talking about the last 100 days. This man has been on the scene for nine years, and he has only increased his voting share in every demographic in every county. I refuse to believe that is because America is a shithole country and everybody's hateful. No, I'm sorry. Not only do I refuse to believe that because that is not my lived experience, but I don't think that's a winning message, guys. Just pragmatically. And it feels maddening to me that we all spent weeks telling people who wanted to vote for Jill Stein this is not an outfit. This is not a personal expression. I loved it when Nancy said that, like, this is not about personal expression. This is a pragmatic. This is politics. And then the second this happened, it was everyone who voted for Trump is an ethically corrupt, terrible person. And this is a reflection of your moral failings instead of this is politics. This is politics. And I know that he makes it hard. Trust me, I feel lost over the last nine years in understanding that Donald Trump is about politics.

[00:25:39] But because he makes it so hard to remember that and not be blinded by your anger and disgust at him and your frustration that he is seemingly incapable, but clearly not. I get it. He triggers me, too. Truly. But, I just think that we are not learning. We're supposed to be the learners. And if you see the results of this election and cannot channel-- and I'm talking to the Democratic Party at the highest levels of leadership-- that we are doing something wrong, then I don't know what to say. Like, I don't know what to say. We are missing the mark for people. We have every marker from 2016 to 2024 has told us that, first of all, we have abandoned the working class and that they don't want to hear about identity politics. No one wants to be told-- maybe not no one, but a large share of the American populace does not want to be told that they're a victim or a villain based on something they cannot control about themselves. I just don't think that's a winning message. And I don't know how many times we need to hear that and see that. Because, again, New York, New Jersey, California, these are blue states.

Beth [00:27:06] Blue cities.

Sarah [00:27:07] Blue cities.

Beth [00:27:08] New York City, Los Angeles, Chicago.

Sarah [00:27:10] He won Miami-Dade. I don't know what else to say. Actually I agree with you. Again, this is not about Kamala. This is not about anybody who left it on the field. Because here's the truth for me, the reason I don't want to abandon a ground game is that I think when people leave their spot in America and go to another spot in America, something beautiful takes place. It's why we like to travel and speak. I think something beautiful takes place when you knock on doors, period. And so if you traveled across the country to knock on doors, that was a gift to you no matter what happened in this election. That was a blessing for you to reach out and to see your fellow Americans and look them in the eye and understand what they're concerned about and to listen to them. That to me, like this ground game, I know we didn't win. I get it. But that will pay dividends. The hundreds of thousands of doors that got knocked on and the way we showed up in people's communities, that will pay dividends in some part because some of the people who we were knocking on doors will go back and be leaders in the Democratic Party. In their counties, in their cities, in their states. One of them might run for president one day. And they felt it. They walked it. They saw it. That's different. And it's important. It's really, really important.

Beth [00:28:35] I don't disagree with any of that. I'm just saying I do think we need to reframe on what is effective.

Sarah [00:28:41] Yeah.

Beth [00:28:42] What is not just a personal gift and what we can see as transformative beyond those of us who love politics and who love people.

Sarah [00:28:51] Yeah.

Beth [00:28:51] A lot of people don't love people. They don't. They want to be left alone mostly. They want to opt in to every interaction that they have. A lot of people don't love people. So we got to think differently and accept that as much as we don't like it, the terms have changed. This election from the get go happened on Trump's terms.

Sarah [00:29:15] Yeah.

Beth [00:29:15] From the get go. And nothing was able to shift that, even the incredibly impressive effort that the Harris campaign put forward and that all of you put forward supporting the Harris campaign. Even that did not shift the terms of the debate. I think about this with Sherrod Brown constantly. I think he's a great senator and it is a loss to America that he and Jon Tester are not going to be there anymore. I also watched the commercials unfold. Bernie Morano set the terms of that debate. He just did. And that's not healthy. So we got to figure out how do people opposing these candidates that I personally find to be destructive, how do we set the terms of the debate differently? And that just didn't happen here. And it's really, really frustrating. I want to say to the point about everybody who voted for Trump is a bad person, that I do not believe that. I think it's really easy for those of us who love news and politics to forget that most people don't. You're absolutely right, but for so many people, Trump is still the guy who's in Home Alone 2 and The Apprentice. Even though they lived through his administration, they did not pay attention to the finer points of it. They just didn't.

Sarah [00:30:25] It looked good on them.

Beth [00:30:26] Exactly. Have a great life. Enjoy your time. And I, in my gut, believe that a woman or a Hispanic or black or Asian man who's a little bit younger, who had the charisma that Trump has and could also embody that limbic system, I think they could have even overperformed him in this election. I do not think that this is a racism or sexism thing. And if you look at the data, it tells you that this was not a racism sexism thing. I get that it feels so crushing to think that two incredibly impressive women lost to this guy. And it is easy to read the pieces about how America hates women and to think that's true. And the abortion issue is gutting right now. Again, if you are paying attention to the details of how it's playing out, that issue is gutting right now. But I don't think fundamentally that America hates women. I think America has some issues with feminine authority. I could talk about that for a long time. But I think women are deeply divided in terms of what they want their everyday life experiences to feel like, and Trump just channels a lot of that.

Sarah [00:31:36] Look, I think both things are true. Some parts of America are deeply misogynistic. As a woman who served in public office, I experienced that first time. Some people seeing a woman in power just brings out the most hateful aspects of this. And there is no doubt that there were racist, sexist attacks made against Kamala Harris based on nothing else except for the fact that she was a woman and that she was a woman of color. Period. That's for sure true. That doesn't mean that's what was motivating all 70 million people that voted for him. That doesn't mean that they walked into the voting booth and was like, yeah, fuck her. That's not what was happening.

Beth [00:32:22] This is the problem, though. I think this is a problem on the entire spectrum of political thought. The existence of some people under the same umbrella makes us very myopic.

Sarah [00:32:37] Yeah.

Beth [00:32:38] So, yes, there are some awful stuff under the Trump umbrella. Awful. And he perpetuates it. And I agree I can't go on long enough about how intolerable he is.

Sarah [00:32:49] And the Nazi flags and the Trump flags.

Beth [00:32:51] All the things accepted.

Sarah [00:32:54] I was about to say we all saw that; except we didn't see it.

Beth [00:32:58] We didn't see it. But 100 percent I do not excuse any of the horribly hateful trends under the Trump umbrella, especially in this election about trans people. I accept all of it. That is absolutely correct. But there are other people under that umbrella and more. My community, my county went for Trump two to one. My community is not a hateful place. It is not a hateful place. It went for Trump two to one. I need to pay attention to what I can change, not the people who are deeply, deeply off the rails in that ugliness. And I think the same thing happens on the Democratic side. I think that the existence of different people under the same umbrella has been hard on everybody. Even people as pragmatic as Ezra Klein and Jon Stewart are annoyed that Liz Cheney and Dick Cheney were part of this campaign. And there are people in the Liz Cheney-Dick Cheney side of it who don't like being on the same side as folks who they see as pro-Hamas. The existence of people under the same umbrella is driving all of us crazy. We need more than two umbrella. That is the conclusion. And I don't know how you get there when you look at the results of this campaign, but I do know that that agitation of I never feel fully represented because some people who I don't like also support this candidate, I don't know how that breaks.

Sarah [00:34:21] Yeah. Look, I don't think we're going to get anything but the two party system for a while anyway. And so I think everybody, including Democrats, have to understand that there are going to be ideologues, there are going to be radicals on both sides. And don't fool yourself that one radical is abjectly different than a different radical. I'm seeing in these posts that are-- I watched a Trump supporter tweet that was like we really need to listen to Democrats. We need to reach out to them. We need to be the humble winners. And then you get people going like uh-uh, those elites that did this that support P Diddy and all the things. And they'd be like speedy trial, shallow graves. Speedy trial, shallow grave. But tell me if that's not different in degrees, then this is a shithole country and these people deserve the fascists that are going to lock them up in camps. Like what's the difference? I don't see it. I see one side saying they disagree with me and the dehumanization, they're less than human, they deserve what they get on both sides.

Beth [00:35:26] Yeah.

Sarah [00:35:26] I just do. I don't mean to be both sides in it, but the far extreme sides. And honestly, that's why you get some meeting in the middle with Make America Healthy Again under RFK. That's why you get it like a little horseshoe that comes back around and meets in the middle around seed oil for the love of God. Where you get crunchy yoga moms who used to be hardcore Democrats and men that love Joe Rogan, I don't know. But they come together and then they meet. And I just think that's not saying it's okay. We have to be able to observe in politics-- observing something without judgment. I know that there is a hard reality to hold. That we are a country, that we have values, that we have an articulated vision for what our country is about. We have a story. That's true. I believe that. I believe that. I think that America is not an ethnicity as many Trump supporters do. I disagree with that. I think we don't need to get rid of birthright citizenship. I think that America is an idea and also politics is politics. Politics is understanding their story. Having a vision for your story. Being able to communicate it effectively and to the right people and persuading them. Not scolding them. Not shaming them. Persuading them. And you can say a lot of things about Donald Trump, but what he doesn't do a lot of is scolding. He's a permission giver. Whatever you're feeling, you're right. I hear you.

Beth [00:37:18] It's the limbic system. Be whatever you are right now and that is fine. Something I'm noticing as we're having this conversation as an aside, is that we're in a hotel room. And so I'm having to speak more loudly than I usually do. And it is like escalating me. I feel more amped up than I normally do when we're recording. And I think that that's kind of a metaphor, too, that elections amp us all up in ways that are super counterproductive. Like me being escalated is never my highest best self.

Sarah [00:37:52] I think you're making great point.

Beth [00:37:54] Well, I appreciate that very much. But it's just kind of hard. I don't feel like myself as I'm making them. You know what I mean? Because I feel harder and louder. And elections do that. And what I really want to do as I move through all the stages, the feeling that one has on the other side of an election where your candidate lost, I just want to keep kind of quieting and looking at the data and being willing to look at it and not reinforce what I already believed. I would love to sit here and say if she had picked Josh Shapiro like I wanted her to for her VP, this would have been different. It wouldn't have. The data says it wouldn't have. The data also says to me that it wasn't the economy stupid in the way we typically think of it. You said this this morning quickly over breakfast and I think this is so right; people are using the economy to say a bunch of things that are not measured by economic statistics. A much better predictor than unemployment or wages or job growth or investment under all these federal programs that Biden here has put into place, a much better predictor is education and density. That tells you that this is about people's every day. What does my life feel like instead of the things that we actually have policy levers to help.

Sarah [00:39:08] Yeah.

Beth [00:39:09] And so I keep thinking, too, about how this election to me indicates a lot of people are looking to politics on both sides of the aisle to do things that politics cannot do. I think it can do a lot, but it cannot do everything that we are asking it to do.

[00:39:26] Music Interlude.

Sarah [00:39:36] I love humans. I do love people, but we have evolved in a really not great way. In that when we feel threat, we don't use our executive functioning, which is what the modern times require. When we have problems, we need to think. But what we want to do is fight. And that's not serving us. But I think to the sense of what the economy is capturing for people. Because I do think it's the economy. I think that to a certain extent, I think it is the price of housing no matter where you live. I think it is the price of health care no matter where you live. I think it is the price of everyday goods and services no matter where you live. A Starbucks latte is $8 in Paducah just like it is in New York City-- probably more in New York City. That's a lot of money. And I know I've been saying get over it. I was not saying that to the working class. I was saying that to the people in my neighborhood who complain about the economy and building giant pool houses, but whatever. Because I think it's more than that, even if you have enough money to handle that. Because he's picking up upper income voters just as much as he's picking up the lower class.

[00:40:52] It's no one likes their relationship with their phone. No one really likes the relationship with their kids and their phone. Nicholas and I described the public school system all the time as feeling like we're in Indiana Jones; that we're running down the road with our youngest child as the road crumbles behind us. That's an issue, right? That's a big issue. I think it's the politics of disorder, especially in those high density places. That doesn't surprise me at all where you have to get someone to unlock it to get a shampoo. People don't like it. I was listening to AOC because I really have been thinking like, okay, so what's the vision? What's the solution? I really would like to get Pete at a table to talk about this. I think one for me is Medicare for All. Health care is too expensive. No one's happy with it. And I do think government can do something about that. And do I think that will be attention less? No, I don't. Well, I do I think it'll be hard? Yeah, I do.

[00:41:43] But this isn't working. It's not just it's too expensive. People can't get it. People in rural areas can't get it. That is a thing. That is a democratic proposal that I think would help a lot of people. And we've abandoned it. We abandoned it because we thought it wasn't popular and because we didn't want to do the hard work that we do with the ACA of explaining it to people and getting spit on or, God forbid, shot like Gabby Giffords. So I get it. I'm not mad at anybody specifically. But when I'm thinking about what can we offer people? What do we think will help people though? Working class people. Instead of just saying we have systemic issues over and over? Sorry, it's hard. It's complicated.

Beth [00:42:24] I think there's a lot of fairness in that. I think the other piece in defining the issues is the other side of the coin of much of what you listed. It's not just that people think housing is too expensive. It's also that they hate looking at homelessness. They hate looking at homelessness and they want somebody to do something about it. And when they feel that in the limbic system, again, the feeling is not, gosh, housing is too expensive and that's why these folks are out here. The feeling is there's a problem with these people and I want somebody to fix it. And I think with shoplifting, it's the same thing. It's not prices are too high or people are struggling to make a living. It's these people are scum and I want somebody to fix it. And I'm not saying any of those feelings make everyone bad people. That is deeply ingrained in us as a culture. And there is some truth in the fact that some people live more responsible lives than others. Some people are doing their best, and it is not up to your standard of what you think being a good, responsible citizen looks like. That is hard.

[00:43:26] And nobody likes to hear people like me who say with every person who does crime, there's a story about why. And caring about that story is how you deal with this. They don't want to hear me talk about punishment versus redemption and restorative justice. They don't feel that way about it. Now, that is work that I can do in my life as a person of faith. It is work that I can do as a parent. It is work that I can do in conversations in my public school system about how we treat children who are struggling in the school system. But politically right now is not helpful. In the rogue politics of pick this person or that person, it does not match the mood of the voting public. And I think that for way too long there has been a story among Democrats-- and it is not my mom. I cannot just say anything about her. But here's the thing I will say. I think for way too long, there has been a story that greater turnout will always lead to Democratic victory. And I think the real story is greater turnout is just greater turnout. More is just more. And I especially think it's true that more is just more people who don't like news and politics. And those people, I think, for the most part, are deeply uninterested, at least today, at least at this moment, in talking about root causes. They just want someone to address the felt experience of life. It doesn't make them bad. It's just information that we have to have.

Sarah [00:44:58] No, I 100 percent agree. And, look, his catchphrase was I'll fix it. I'll fix it. And so, listen, here's where I'm at on that. I took a lot of notes during the Obama administration about being an effective minority. And my plan is to not insult the people who voted for Donald Trump. My plan is to hold Donald Trump and the Republican Party, who are clearly going to have all the reins of government at their disposal, to account every single day. Do your best, guys. I want to see what you can do. I want the prices down. I want the goods unlocked. I want the public schools thriving. I want all end to international conflict. I want it all. I want my health care costs to go down. I want Social Security fully funded, but I don't want to pay taxes on it. I want everything and I want it now. And I plan on demanding it. I think the best thing we can do is to hold the people in power, which are going to be Donald Trump and the MAGA wing of the Republican Party, responsible for their promises. I want the prices to go down.

[00:46:19] I want to see what they can do. I want them to fix immigration without any discomfort on my behalf. And especially, I don't want to have anything to do with China, but I want everything to stay cheap. So let's do it. Because what I learned from the Republican Party is you actually don't need a better idea, at least not in the first two years. You just need to say they're doing a shitty job. And so, that's politics and it works. So for at least the first two years, I would like somebody in the background-- again, I would like to nominate Pete-- to really come up with the ideas that we think will impact people's lives and how to communicate them. But in the meantime, what Imma do is be like where are my cheap eggs now? I want them now.

Beth [00:47:03] So I would absolutely put Pete Buttigieg as the head of the DNC for now. That's what I think needs to happen next, because I do think he could go in and do a complete rewrite of things. And it's needed.

Sarah [00:47:16] Just get Pete a white board.

Beth [00:47:16] And he's such a good communicator and he will go anywhere and talk to anyone and take them seriously and speak with respect on their terms. So I think that's a very good plan.

Sarah [00:47:27] Give Pete a whiteboard and let him go. I would like AOC in there, too.

Beth [00:47:31] Sure. There are lots of people...

Sarah [00:47:32] I'm just going to be honest. She's a great communicator. She gets it.

Beth [00:47:35] Listen, the Avengers were real. They're fantastic. Wes Moore, I would let [inaudible] almost anything in my life.

Sarah [00:47:44] Lisa [inaudible].

Beth [00:47:44] I think he’s fantastic. Yes

Sarah [00:47:45] Tim Baldwin [sp]. Let's put them in there.

Beth [00:47:46] Abigail [inaudible]. There is a deep well of talent. And I think let them do what they do. And that well of talent does not coalesce around particular ideology. There are a lot of just pragmatic thinkers there who understand who they represent and what those people want and how to talk about it. And that's great.

Sarah [00:48:08] I do think we've hit on something that none of these people are in the silent generation. With all the love in the world to Nancy Pelosi who we know we both greatly admire Nancy as very effective and Chuck Schumer, but I'm ready to move on.

Beth [00:48:23] Here's what I think it is. I've been thinking about this a lot because we haven't talked about Joe Biden in this conversation. And there's a lot to say about Joe Biden. Perhaps we could do that on our Substack. Okay. There's a lot to say about Joe Biden. What I think is really fair in the critique of those leaders who I admire and appreciate and who I think were necessary in their time. And that time lasted until very recently. I cannot say enough especially about Nancy Pelosi. Also, when you have as much experience and information as they have, you are going to be driven to just maintain.

Sarah [00:49:03] Yeah.

Beth [00:49:05] That is why people hate American foreign policy. Why Americans hate American foreign policy. Because so much of it is a proportionate response containing threats. And that's so valuable. It's just valuable in ways that we cannot see because you don't appreciate all the bombs that didn't go off.

Sarah [00:49:26] Yeah.

Beth [00:49:26] And you're not willing to say some of the bombs needed to go off, especially if your son or daughter or uncle or cousin was blown up along with it. And that's fair. Again, people are not bad people for not feeling the way that I feel about some of this stuff. But I think the problem-- not even problem, just the straight reality is that people of that generation are maintainers. And the mood of the American public is for disrupters. And I think the Democrats have very talented disrupters in people like Shapiro and Moore and Buttigieg. People who are saying I'm going to make things work better. I'm going to make things work better in my city in this kind of small way, but in a big way, too. I don't want to make anybody feel like they've been discarded. And I am especially sensitive to the fact that there are a lot of people in the silent generation who are living very difficult lives. We all love the memes about the Boomers owning two houses and we can't get more than an apartment. But that again, is not representative of the whole populace.

Sarah [00:50:39] No. What's the stats? Half of Boomers don't have any retirement savings. They don't have a 401K, and it's certainly not well funded.

Beth [00:50:46] Some people do, but most do not.

Sarah [00:50:49] Most do not. And, look, I just think for all of those people, what they've been saying is it is not-- and here's where we're going to cross streams on both the political, pragmatic reality and the ethical and moral choice or right thing to do, whatever. It is not racial progress. It is not addressing the systemic racism in our country to need people of color, be they Latino or black or Native American, to vote 95 percent Democrat in order to win. That ain't it. Because they're not a monolith. And to treat them as such, same for young people--

Beth [00:51:48] Same for women.

Sarah [00:51:49] Same for women. And to say based on this thing your only choice is this, that's not working. And it's paternalistic. It's reductive. And people's lived reality is defined beyond their demographics. I felt like we lived in America the entire time I was growing up and said be colorblind. Be colorblind. We elected the first black president and the second he was out of office we were like you're all racists. I don't think it connected. And I certainly don't think it affected systemic racism or improved the situation. And that's what we're hearing from a lot of voters of color who are moving dramatically, especially in high density areas, to Donald Trump.

Beth [00:52:44] And, look, a lot of what Trump says is reductive, offensive, very, very paternalistic. And I understand it is so frustrating to hear any critique of Democrats when you are dealing with not just Trump, but a lot of Republicans. A lot of Republicans in leadership are just in a very, very different place morally and ethically, than I am.

Sarah [00:53:10] They're hateful. You can say they're hateful.

Beth [00:53:12] Just in a real, real different orientation to the universe all around. Again, I got to think about where outside of politics I can work on that problem. It guts me to see the Christian exit polls. Guts me. And to live in the reality that those polls reflect what I see in life. The churches who are thriving are not churches that are saying let's be open and affirming, let's be welcoming, inclusive, let's serve our community as the hands and feet of Jesus. A lot of the churches that are thriving are thriving because they say you who are here are good people, and those who are not here are bad people. And we are in a battle between good and evil in this world. And that's just not what I believe. There are no bad people either. People have deeply ingrained cultures. We are all a sum of our life experiences. I am where I am spiritually today because I had a very unusual pastor as a kid. This is not moral superiority. We are the sum of our life experiences in so many ways.

[00:54:23] But I just think all of the things I feel in my heart, the love that I have for people who are very scared in the wake of this result. And I understand why. I read a Facebook post from someone I know today talking about how fearful she is about her marriage and about her kids and about where her life isn't going to go. That's real and it's valid. And that's not who we're talking to when we talk about doing a rewrite of campaign strategy for Democrats. All of that that I feel in my heart, the best way I can show up is in person in my community, in tangible, tactile, have people to dinner kind of ways. And so when I think about who do I want to be on the other side of the Trump administration, it is softer in person and harder about politics. That's where I land.

Sarah [00:55:15] Yeah. I think that's right. And I think, look, no one's arguing or at least I'm not arguing that there are not some real scary things on the table. I will say that Nicholas saw some post from Matt Walsh that was like 2025. It was real the whole time. We're going to do it. And then I said Matt Walsh hadn't read all of 2025. Nicholas said that's only person in America who's read the entirety of Project 2025.

Beth [00:55:41] That's right. I don't even think that the editor read the whole thing.

Sarah [00:55:43] Yeah, that's exactly what he said. Because it's not some fascist playbook-- parts of it are.

Beth [00:55:49] It's a mix.

Sarah [00:55:50] It's a mix.

Beth [00:55:51] It's a real mix.

Sarah [00:55:52] That's going to be the reality. And the good news is that Donald Trump isn't a fascist ideologue. He's a narcissist. Do I think he will lean on fascist tendencies to prioritize his own needs and wants? I do.

Beth [00:56:04] Sometimes.

Sarah [00:56:04] Sometimes I think he will. And then I think when people go, "We're mad at you," he'll go, "Never mind." Now, will the people around him always go, "Never mind," I don't know. Time will tell. But it's like again what other alternative do we have? Because here's the other thing that I think we all need to just get right with. It's not just us. Together is all we have with the globe. Around the globe people are rejecting Covid incumbents. Do we all think that Canada is a shithole, hateful country? Because Justin Trudeau, when Trump was elected, was all of our wet dreams. He was opening the doors. He was welcoming people. He was doing everything we wished we had a president was doing. And he is in deep shit in Canada. He is unpopular. Housing people are mad about all the immigration because there was not enough housing stock to support it. The services are taxed. The climate change initiatives were too expensive for people and he did not engage in good faith.

[00:57:06] He did a lot of illiberal the narcissism of small difference. If you disagree with me, you're a bad person. And he's going to lose. They're losing seats that they've held for decades. Does that sound familiar? The only reason Britain just went left is because they were in front of us. They already did it with Brexit. They already moved to the right and rejected the incumbents. But it's happening in France. It's happening everywhere. This is not just us. This is not just some America is uniquely terrible. This is a global trend based a lot on inflation post Covid. And so I want us to not-- I get right is not the word. I just want us to like-- the right word. That's not hard reality. I think it's a soft reality. I think it's like a comforting reality to me. This is just a lot of really hard global forces and we have to adapt to that. We have to say this is the reality, not as we wish it to be, but how it is and what are we going to do about it? How are we going to talk about it both in our personal lives and in campaigns?

Beth [00:58:11] In that short chat I had with my husband as he drove me to the airport, he said, "Beth, do not let your live show be a funeral." And I said, "First, I'm a professional. How dare you?"

Sarah [00:58:21] How dare you, Chad? It was a very quick shift from there. I went from like, yeah, Chad then no Chad.

Beth [00:58:29] Well, that's how it is. He's right. He's been doing a lot of things. And also I know.

Sarah [00:58:33] And I'm like cut it out!

Beth [00:58:33] But I don't feel a funeral. I feel a little pissed off. I do. And that'll come in waves and it'll go in waves. But the bigger thing I feel is what can I understand about the human condition from all of this? And what I really understand globally is that people wanted to have a pandemic without any really negative consequences.

Sarah [00:59:00] Yeah.

Beth [00:59:01] It is hard for me in business or in organizations where I'm on the board, it is hard to constantly come back to the truly genius thing that Kelly Harper said to us one time, which is you are always going to have problems. You just want to pick the least bad of the problems. And I was a corporate bankruptcy lawyer for a time. I remember being in that really pragmatic space. This is going to suck no matter what. How does it suck the least? But that is not how a voting public takes things, especially when those things were as psychologically difficult and financially difficult and viscerally difficult as the pandemic was. And so I think one way to understand what's happened-- and this is different than the economy-- it is that Covid was painful.

Sarah [00:59:48] Yeah.

Beth [00:59:49] And people didn't like the pain. And whoever is associated with that pain in almost any way has to go. There are some dramatic outliers to that. When I think about how our governor Andy Beshear won a second term, I don't know. There are some dramatic outliers to it, but for the most part, I think that's where the world is. And I think that that's going to continue to be where the world is because of the war in Ukraine, and all of the ramifications of that because of the war in Gaza, and all of the ramifications of that because of climate change, and a lot of the ramifications of that immigration. I had a very fascinating conversation with an Uber driver who's from Morocco about how European countries pay Morocco to keep people out. There's just a lot of things where people don't want to pick the least of the problems. They want there to be no problems.

Sarah [01:00:39] Yeah. And that's what they promised. And so we have to hold them to account when they do not have solutions for these complicated problems. But we better have them. We better have an idea. We better have some vision for what will solve not just post-COVID pain, but I think a lot of this is just the pace of technological change. I really think we failed our kids and everybody basically agrees on that. And so we might disagree about the solution, but that's a hard, hard-- listen, as a parent in my individual life, I've had to face some things where I just made the wrong call and it's excruciating. And I've seen other parents just ignore that at all costs. And that is also painful and toxic. And so I just I think for me, though, as far as what's coming next and I understand especially for the LGBTQ community of which I have many, many people very, very close to me that I love, that are afraid of this. And I take that fear seriously because I love these people and I'm afraid for them, too.

[01:01:47] I just have to always remember that we don't break the chain and people had bigger odds than us. People faced impossible, impossibly hard fights. The fight for women's suffrage. The fight for civil rights, the fight for gay rights. They were so, so hard. They felt impossible. And I will not break the chain. It doesn't mean I get to see the outcome. It means I continue to ask myself hard questions and do hard things and not say people suck and all is lost. I'm not going to write an obituary for America. I'm not going to do it because I don't think it's over, at least not while I have breath. And at least not while I have children here who I want to live in a free and fair country. And I guess the upside, although I'm not foolish enough to believe that this is the good faith in which they are arguing, but at least we can all agree we had a free and fair election this time. Doesn't mean I think they'll stick to that next time should they lose.

Beth [01:03:06] And they're not going to give anybody credit for that.

Sarah [01:03:09] No, they gave themselves credit. I saw a post. Let me tell you about it. It was Florida and it was all red. And it was like, boy, so weird that now that we have somebody enforcing election law that Florida is all red now.

Beth [01:03:23] Great. Perfect. And, listen, I just say that to say it's frustrating as hell.

Sarah [01:03:28] It is. I wanted to reach through the screen and strangle my cousin who posted that.

Beth [01:03:31] It's frustrating as hell that not one person online representative of the MAGA movement is sitting around going, well, that was real classy what Kamala Harris did. It was real classy. It's not going to happen and that's okay. Because, again, it is a big tent over there. And I want to remember that there are a lot of people under that tent who are not represented by the online voices. I just keep having to remember the same thing with the baby boomers and the housing. Some people, yes, but a lot of others no.

Sarah [01:04:03] And, look, it doesn't matter if you want to exchange Facebook memes with them. It doesn't matter. My friend sent me one that was like, well, see how she didn't concede immediately? That's why we shouldn't have a woman president ever because they're too emotional. And this was a woman who posted this.

Beth [01:04:21] Listen, we have a ton to unpack about American women right now. That post that went viral of the young woman being pissed off that she has to go to college and get a job because she couldn't-- and the much malignment of that video, there's a lot there that needs to be paid attention to. A lot is contained in that. I'm not with her. I have problems. I can talk about internalized misogyny and all. I know the language. I speak it fluently now. But that language is ignoring some real things out there that we have got to talk about. And I know that we will. But I share your optimism. I am long on America, always. I am not looking to leave this country. I do not think that this is the end. I think it's serious. I think it could get really, really bad. I think we're not entitled to things not getting really, really bad. Ask the people who just lived through Hurricane Helene. You know what I mean?

[01:05:12] Things can suck sometimes, but they suck less here and now than they have for the vast majority of humans who have ever existed anywhere. And I try so hard to keep that perspective and I try so hard to remember just like Kamala Harris said, there's still a lot of good that can be done and will be done and is being done. And you all are very much a part of that. And I hope that we are, too. And that's my intention. I'm not going to do outrage porn during the Trump presidency. I'm not going to sit here and go, “Can you believe he nominated this person?” Yes. Can you believe he did this executive order? Yes. Can you believe he said this thing? Absofucking yes. Every single time. I believe it. This is eyes wide open for me. And so I want to do the good that I can do in this new room that we're all living in together.

Sarah [01:06:01] And where are you going to go? They don't want your ass in Spain and Portugal. They have high housing costs in Canada. They also don't want more people there.

Beth [01:06:09] And they have these problems, too.

Sarah [01:06:10] They have these problems, too. And speaking of our neighbors to the north and south, to the sexism of it all, I don't think that Mexico is some bastion of feminism. I think they have the same gender issues, if not worse, than we do. And they elected a woman. I think if it'd been Joe Biden versus Nikki Haley, she'd have taken it in a walk.

Beth [01:06:32] She might have won like Reagan level Electoral College.

Sarah [01:06:35] Reagan level. I think it's not that it's not a factor, but I don't think it's the only factor. And I think what do we do next? Again, we're just going to hold them to account. We're going to do our work and we're going to hold them responsible for the promises that they made. He's going to fix it. We're going to live in a golden age of America. And if that doesn't start happening immediately, I got some things to say. I'm ready. Again, I took notes during the Obama era. I'm like, let's do this. You have the reins of government. So I want to see all of it immediately. And I will be pointing it out that it's not there on this podcast and in conversation with my friends and neighbors every day.

Beth [01:07:25] That's where I am. Harder about politics, softer with people.

Sarah [01:07:29] Yeah. I think that's exactly right. And I'm so happy to be here with all of you. I think you're right. I think that this community is incredible. I know this episode was hard for some of you. I'm sure.

Beth [01:07:46] Wasn't great for us.

Sarah [01:07:47] Wasn't great for us either. I feel charged up, Beth. I think we should always record in a room together where you have to lean into that mic.

Beth [01:07:54] Where I have to yell a little bit.

Sarah [01:07:54] Where you have to yell in that mic. Because that's what this moment requires, right? It's going to require that.

Beth [01:08:00] It's both things. Both things are true. Look, I always feel like I need to be a soft place for people to land. And that's true. People need soft landing places right now. A lot of them. And in terms of politics we got to be on our game. Game faces on. Ready to go. Not conceding that this is going to be a terrible four years. What good does that do for the people who I'm trying to be a soft place to land for? When I know that for a whole bunch of reasons-- and I'm not trying to do identity politics, but for a whole bunch of reasons I'm going to be mostly okay for the next four years. And so it is my responsibility to suit up and go.

Sarah [01:08:40] Well, maybe you won't be because we're not owed anything.

Beth [01:08:44] That's right.

Sarah [01:08:44] Pain is inevitable. Suffering is a choice.

Beth [01:08:47] That's right. And if one of my daughters gets pregnant in some godawful circumstances, I won't be. That's right. There are things that we will all endure. But in a lot of ways today, sitting here, I think, who can I serve and how can I serve them? And that has to look different in different spheres of my life.

Sarah [01:09:05] And, look, I know a lot of you wanted to come here and cry along with me. I get it. But I'm not shedding a lot of tears because the other side of me is that I'm fucking tough, and so are you. So are you. I saw y'all making calls from freaking a bed where you're getting chemo. People are dealing with their own cancer journeys and out there mailing postcards for Kamala. People are dealing with very complex, heartbreaking situation with their kids and their parents. They're having heartbreaking interactions with their MAGA family members and they're still getting up the next day and going, let's fucking go! That's what this is about. The heartbreak makes you tough. The heartbreak is the fuel. The thing I told to Griffin is do not let this make you cynical. Do not let this make you cynical. That is the trap. That is a trap and it is a luxury we cannot afford.

Beth [01:10:03] And please do not-- and I say this not only out of self-interest, although I acknowledge there's a piece of that. But please do not turn off news and politics. Please do not decide that you are out. Please do not unsubscribe from all the things. If we're not for you in this new era. I get it. But let somebody be for you in this new era. You have something to contribute and your contributions are needed. Your contributions are needed, and there is a place for them always. Please do not tune out. Take the time that you need. Take the time and space. Take breaks. Always do what you need to do. But don't tell yourself I'm throwing all of this out the door. Because that is destructive for you and for the world. And I really believe in my soul that we each have some kind of gift to give even in the shittiest situations imaginable, and sometimes especially in those situations.

[01:11:03] My friend Brian this morning texted me and he said, "I'm really sorry that you're going to have to talk about him. Maybe you should start a podcast about like fun animal combinations." And I said, "You know what, the sad truth about me is that I'm not gifted for fun. I know I am mostly gifted to do the hard stuff." And that's just true for a lot of us. So please don't opt out. If it's not here, make it somewhere that you feel like I'm going to lean in to the ways in which I uniquely can put one foot in front of the other and make things better.

Sarah [01:11:35] But that's not true because you host murder mystery parties and you're very fun. And I keep thinking about Sebastian Junger's Tribe and where people in the Blitz would get out and go, "I kind of miss it. It gave me a purpose. We were all in it together. We were working hard and there was real threat and some of us didn't make it." And that's going to be true, too. And that's the call for human communities. And some of it is fun and some of it is exhilarating and some of it is excruciating. It's all true. We're not owed a comfortable life. That's not the reality. And if we want a different country, then we have to fight for it. And we have to persuade people that we have a better vision, that we have a solution, that we understand their problems, that we hear them. And that's the call. That's the work. It never ends. I don't care if we sweep in the 2026 midterms and Pete Buttigieg with AOC as his vice president is elected in 2028. Jon Stewart is right. It's never the final act. It's never the final act here. Okay. And so the work is never done. And I think I love deep, deep in my heart Barack Obama. But I think there was a little bit of like we did it. We did it. We're in post-racial America. We figured it all out. We're here.

Beth [01:13:11] And he still thinks that, too.

Sarah [01:13:13] Bless his heart.

Beth [01:13:14] About he got it all right and then everybody screwed it up after him. I appreciate that he was out on the trail for her, but a lot of times I thought I wish you weren't. You're reinforcing a lot of the negative things that people say about Democrats. And, again, that's hard. That's annoying to hear. I understand. I just want to be clear-eyed and be willing to say the annoying things and accept them on the terms of what is.

Sarah [01:13:38] I do think he goes professorial in a way Pete doesn't, even though Pete is laying out the facts. And I can't really quite name how. I think if you went back to 2008 maybe it was less. I think it's a small club. Once you are president, it works on your ego.

Beth [01:13:51] But, listen, I also think that we confuse being a gifted orator with being a persuasive messenger sometimes. I love listening to people who are gifted at speaking. I highly value that. And there are folks who listen to Michelle Obama and aren't moved. That's hard to take.

Sarah [01:14:10] And there are people that listen to Donald Trump and are moved. That's also very hard to take. I understand. I get it. We're like it's incomprehensible to us, but not everybody feels that way. It speaks to them. And that's hard to understand, but we have to take that seriously. Okay. So I think we said we're going to harder on politics, get softer personally. We're going to do it together.

Beth [01:14:35] Yes.

Sarah [01:14:36] This community's tough.

Beth [01:14:37] We got it.

Sarah [01:14:37] We got it. All right. Next up, speaking of somebody tough, we're going to talk about Jason Kelce.

[01:14:41] Music Interlude.

Beth [01:14:51] I love Jason Kelce.

Sarah [01:14:52] I know that you do. I do, too. You said you'd pick him. I'm not sure. It's a tough one. I think I'd probably end up picking Jason over Travis. I don't know. [Inaudible].

Beth [01:15:04] Look, I'd rather read a novel about Travis and Taylor, but I'd rather live next door to Jason and Kylie. You know what I'm saying? I just think there's a seasoning about them. They're the older ones. Maybe I just identify more because they're older. But I wanted to talk about the phone smashing incident. So, again, if you don't know about this, good for you.

Sarah [01:15:22] Good for you.

Beth [01:15:23] Way to not spend as much time online as I have recently. Last weekend, Jason Kelce was at a football game. He had a six pack of beer under his arm and he's just walking around like a normal person except--

Sarah [01:15:37] [Inaudible] campus.

Beth [01:15:39] Yeah, it was on a college campus. And he was walking around like a normal person, except that tons of normal people had their phones and taking every step of his as something that they are entitled to video and share with the world. And because we live in an environment where everybody has their stupid phone out everywhere all the time, including me...

Sarah [01:16:02] I was just thinking that if a candidate said my number one platform is no phones at concert. Would they have won? Would she have won if she'd said, like, I don't want any more phones at concerts? That's it. We're going to start there and we'll see where that takes us.

Beth [01:16:17] I would love for us to vote with our feet on that. I don't see any evidence that we will. So everybody has their stupid phones out, which incentivizes people to get their 15 seconds of notoriety. And some guy says to Jason Kelce, how does it feel to know that your brother is a F-word slur for gay people because he's dating Taylor Swift?

Sarah [01:16:44] It takes him a minute.

Beth [01:16:45] It takes him a minute. Jason Kelce takes a couple of strides forward, he's walking forward but he's thinking, he's processing and then he decides, you know what? Not today. And he turns around and he takes this kid's phone and he smashes it on the ground. And then the kid takes a few swings at him and the camera catches Jason saying, who's the F-word now?

Sarah [01:17:07] Well, because the kid wants his phone back because he slams it on the ground and he picks it up.

Beth [01:17:11] And he gets his phone back. Eventually he walks away with his phone and he shows some other person who has their phone out filming the whole thing that his phone is cracked, as it would be when a former professional football player has slammed it on the ground.

Sarah [01:17:23] That was the most interesting part to me. I just wanted to be like, friend, did you forget what he did for a living? He a big dude and his job used to be running down other really big dudes. So I just think maybe you saw too many clips of him being a podcaster on Instagram and forgot what his job was. Because his job was being very aggressive physically.

Beth [01:17:43] But here's what I like about him. So he takes this moment that goes viral and where at least my feed says most people agree that it was not a bad thing for him to teach this kid a lesson, and a show of real restraint that he taught this kid a lesson by smashing his phone instead of taking a swing at his person.

Sarah [01:18:04] Yes, I have something to say about that because I feel like people are going to be like "Sarah, you were so mad about Will Smith and Chris Rock." But I do feel that property damage is very different than assault; although, sometimes the law does not see it that way. I get it. But my stance in my community is when there's some cheating and people do some property damage [inaudible]. I don't want anybody getting hurt. Let me be abundantly clear about that. I don't want anybody to get hurt. I think that's the red line for me. We don't touch other people. We don't hurt other people. But I don't know, some little smashing to say don't do that to me again, let's just say I get it. I don't condone it, but I get it.

Beth [01:18:49] Well, this is what I like about this whole microcosm. Because this is a story about masculinity. It's a story about bullying. It's a story about who has the moral high ground. And I think Jason Kelce has beautifully held a lot of complexity here because he has talked about this publicly now a couple of times with regrets. His regret, though, is complicated because I think he still thinks that kid was a jerk and he was defending his family and he would do it again in a second. But I think he also recognizes that he can't just go around doing that stuff and have been a private matter. It is not just between him and that kid. It is between him and the world. And now there is film of him using a word that he finds grotesque and wishes that he had not uttered in this moment when he was super escalated.

[01:19:41] And I think he's done a really good job of saying there are things about this I regret and things about this that I do not. I'm a little sorry, but not all the way sorry. And I'm not sorry at all to that guy. There's just, I think, a healthy path here where he has not done what we tend to do, especially around Internet controversies. All bad. All good. White hat. Black hat. Hero. Villain. He has said like, "I did some dumb things, I made some decisions I won't make again and I will learn from that," without being like I'm the worst person ever. I should have just kept walking. I think he said he should have kept walking, but not because it was wrong to defend his family because of what that ended up meaning to a lot of people.

Sarah [01:20:29] Yeah, it's definitely a commentary on fame and the constant observation that comes with being a famous person or not a famous person out in the world and everybody has a camera in their pocket. And I think that handling it the way he did was really good. And I think that our husband's conversation and Daniel's observation that the Kelce brothers are presenting a really, really positive model of masculinity right now continues to be true.

Beth [01:20:52] I think so, too. And I also just think we have got to stop filming other humans as though we are all animals at the zoo or walking around to be captured at any second. We're going to see more of this and someday it's going to get really dangerous. Some of these folks, whether they are famous to 50,000 people on the Internet or to 300 million people in our country, they are going to snap. Because it's too much. It's too much. And honestly, it's too much for regular people. It's not right for us to just be in a fight at the grocery store and have cameras rolling.

Sarah [01:21:26] I mean, famous has always been too much for people before they were cell phones. They literally almost ripped Elvis apart. Ripped his limbs from his body when he was famous in the 50s and these girls trapped him in a bathroom. Fandom is a real situation and it preys on our brains and it messes us up. And we see it over and over and over again.

Beth [01:21:52] But the trouble with the technology is now we're making everyone famous in some way.

Sarah [01:21:57] To somebody.

Beth [01:21:57] For a professor to be worried that they're being videoed during a lecture is unhealthy. And I get that a lot of what's been captured has helped people be believed who wouldn't have been otherwise. We're losing that now. You can make a video look like anything happened and you can alter anything to be what you want it to be, to tell the story you want it to tell. So we've got to figure this out. And I just think step one is putting our damn phones away.

Sarah [01:22:22] Yeah. I agree. Well, if you're listening on your phone. Thank you, though.

Beth [01:22:25] Yeah. Appreciate that.

Sarah [01:22:26] Keep playing, though. Keep playing in your ear. Just be present in the world while we're in your ears. Seriously, though, we are so grateful for each and every one of you who make this work possible and who will stay with us through the very hard work coming for all of us. This community is such a bright spot in the darkest of days. I hope that we have been that for you today and cannot wait to hear from all of you. Your emails and your messages, even when they disagree with us, are powerful and important and impactful. Because I think practicing the skill and art of disagreement is going to become even more important and this community is so good at it. So thank you for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit and Politics. We will be back in your ears on Wednesday because of Veteran's Day. But until then, keep it nuanced y'all.

[01:23:20] Music Interlude.

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Emily Helen Olson. Barry Kaufman. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. Shannon Frawley. Jessica Whitehead. Samantha Chalmers. Crystal Kemp. Megan Hart. The Lebo Family. The Adair Family. Genny Francis. Leighanna Pillgram-Larsen. The Munene Family. Ashley Rene. Michelle Palacios.

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.