The Time to be Bold

Discussion post for November 19, 2024

We have started this week together, thinking through how we want to be and show up in the next Trump administration. Today, Sarah and Beth share some of their thoughts on how they wish Republicans and Democrats show up for Trump 2.0. They also discuss the simmering controversy around this year’s sexiest man alive pick.

TOPICS DISCUSSED

• Trump Appointments

• The Time to Be Bold

• Outside of Politics: The Sexiest Man Alive

Episode Resources

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• Frances McDormand - Telephone Monologue from "Almost Famous" (YouTube)

• John Krasinski Is PEOPLE's 2024 Sexiest Man Alive! (People Magazine)

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TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:09] This is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics.

Beth [00:00:12] Where we take a different approach to the news.

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.

[00:00:29] Thank you so much for joining us today. We probably sound a little different. Again, we are together in person, this time in a lovely farmhouse where we're having a team retreat. Alise, our managing director, Maggie, our director of community engagement, are here with us. The four of us are together thinking deep thoughts about who and how to be in 2025 and beyond. We have the foresight before the election to know that would be a before and after moment for us. And so we are thinking about the after now. And it's really great for us because I think we're all feeling like all of you, some burnout, some depletions and what do I want to do now? And so this is a chance for us to get our thoughts together. It does mean that our sound is a little echoey. Thank you to Studio D who does our sound production for trying to clean that up, and to all of you for your patience. And big thanks to listener Kim and John and Cindy who are allowing us to use this gorgeous space. Today, we are going to talk some more about the shape of the Trump administration and how we are personally responding to some of these picks and how we would like to see others respond to them. And then Outside of Politics, in what I think is a really deep conversation, surprisingly so, we're going to discuss the sexiest man alive and whether rankings like that are useful any more.

Sarah [00:01:46] Before we dive in, we wanted to remind you that our team put together a Pantsuit Politics Listener Gift Guide. This is a gift guide for people who love Pantsuit Politics. Okay, so if you're just a big fan and want to buy yourself some stuff that is also allowed, but if you're looking for gifts for the Pantsuit Politics fan in your life, premium gifts, subscriptions, merch, books, cameos, lots to choose from for yourself or another listener in your life. Send it to your loved ones so they know what to get you. And if you're going to do a Cameo, it must be ordered by Thursday, December 19th in order to get it to them by the end of the year.

Beth [00:02:17] Next up, let's just talk about Matt Gaetz, Tulsi Gabbard, Robert Kennedy Jr. It's going to be great. Well, Sarah, we have some more insight into how the Trump administration is coming together.

Sarah [00:02:37] In a hurry.

Beth [00:02:38] It's coming in a hurry. How are you taking this in? We talked about this a couple of times, but it's a flood of information and I feel myself evolving day to day in my approach. So what's your November 18th approach to taking in information about the incoming administration?

Sarah [00:02:55] I'm still kind of in a huh phase, even with Matt Gaetz. I was shocked. I'm not going to lie and say I wasn't shocked by that appointment. I was. And Tulsi Gabbard, not RFK. I mean, they communicated that very clearly, that that's what was going to happen. But I'm just trying to remind myself that these people haven't been confirmed yet. These are just nominations. I am balancing this sense of the vibe is they want to tear things down, but the strategy is what it's always been, which is barely put together. This is happening so fast; they're clearly not vetting these candidates after all this. It's a constant balance with him in his administration between taking them seriously and also recognizing where they don't take the process seriously, or at least maybe in trying to blow it up they think they should blow up the process, too. I don't know. But you know I'm saying? They're moving very quickly, but it's sloppy like it always is. It's just sloppy.

Beth [00:04:02] I keep trying to remind myself that Donald Trump is the president elect and that is the subject and the predicate in the whole sentence and probably the whole essay. And so why would it matter to him if Pete Hegseth had settled a sexual harassment allegation?

Sarah [00:04:20] The nominee for secretary of defense?

Beth [00:04:21] Yes. Fox News host who has served in the military and now is going to run one of the largest organizations on earth, one of the largest most complex organizations on earth.

Sarah [00:04:32] And no leadership experience, just military experience.

Beth [00:04:36] But that's the thing. They view that as a feature, not a bug. They've got the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson, on the Sunday show saying this is what people voted for. They voted for this kind of disruption. How fantastic. And who is going to go to Donald Trump, who has been found liable for sexual assault and lying about it? Who's going to go to him and say, well, we really can't have this guy because he settled a claim like this in the past. Who's going to go to him and say, well, Matt Gates is really a bridge too far for X, Y and Z reason, all the reasons that are part of Donald Trump's personal biography. We elected him as the president. This is what we're going to get.

Sarah [00:05:18] I had a friend of mine who's a big Trump supporter, at one point when I reached out and was discussing with her the assassination attempt in the summer, say, which is something I've said multiple times, "It's the last person who talked to him." And that's still true. I think that that's what never sat right with me about the narrative surrounding Project 2025 that it was this big organized takeover of America. That's just not his leadership style. Now, you might like that leadership style, and I think a lot of people do. But there is not any sort of long term careful planning. As far as I can tell with Matt Gaetz, they got played. I think Matt Gaetz dreamed this up with Epstein on a plane and convinced them to do this, which is wild to me. Because this is the agency you have the most concern about. This is the one you campaigned on upending and you didn't have a list of names? So when Matt Gaetz showed up with some clear personal motivation to quit way early his seat in Congress seemingly to prevent this Ethics Committee investigation from coming out, because once you're not in Congress it kills the investigation automatically, and no one said, hey, what's in this for Matt?

[00:06:36] Like it's just again with this appointment that you have broadcast is your top priority. So it's like I believe that it is his top priority. And I also see again and again that any sort of long term strategic plan is not present and will not be present. And so to a certain extent, yes, I think he's going to go after his enemies. Yes, I think they're going to begin mass deportations. But the end of the spectrum that argues that Donald Trump has a grand master plan to kill elections in America, that's not how they function. I think we have enough evidence to know that they can do a lot of damage, but it is never part of a master plan because they don't operate like that. And when I mean they, I mean he. He does not operate like that. He wants to see people fight it out for these nominations. He wants to go on his gut. He wants to make last minute calls. He wants to sort of fly by the seat of his pants. And what they're telling themselves is that's what America wants. America wants us to fly by the seat of our pants. And so that's what we're going to do.

Beth [00:07:47] Except when we don't. So, for example, we have Brendan Carr named to head the FCC, the Federal Communications Commission. Brennan Carr is a person who is qualified for that job and who wrote the Project 2025 section on the FCC. This is what I think was so ham-fisted about the way Project 2025 was discussed in connection with the presidential campaign. That document was written for a President Ron DeSantis. That document was written by people who do want to go in and seriously, methodically, in a strategic way, implement their agenda all the way through every arm of the federal government. And some of that is going to make its way in. And some of it, you're right, they will not have the discipline to carry out. And certainly someone like a Matt Gaetz, a Tulsi Gabbard, a Robert F Kennedy Jr., those folks are so married to their own profiles in the world and in media that they're not going to look at that document.

[00:08:55] You know what I mean? They're not going to sit down and strategically think through one step and then another and then another. And that makes me feel a spectrum of concern about them. Matt Gaetz at the Department of Justice I think it will cause lots of serious people to lead the Department of Justice. And that is a shame. And it is a shame from which I believe America can recover. Tulsi Gabbard in charge of our intelligence, that is a shame from which I'm not sure we can recover without an awful lot of pain and an awful lot of damage to our international relationships. So it's all over the map for me in terms of my level of worry. But then as I start to worry, I think, Donald Trump is the president elect, Beth, these people are lower on the priority list in terms of what you're worried about. And this just is. And so how do I get right with that?

Sarah [00:09:51] Do you think Donald Trump cares about the FCC?

Beth [00:09:53] I think he will care about the FCC insofar as it can be part of harassing, annoying or shutting up people that he thinks have wronged him. And that's it.

Sarah [00:10:05] Yeah. I don't think he cares about it right now. You know what I mean? I think the serious picks will get through because he doesn't care. I'm not really sure he cares that much about Secretary of State. I'm wondering if that's why Marco Rubio got through.

Beth [00:10:20] One hundred percent. Because he believes his personal relationships are all we need for American diplomacy.

Sarah [00:10:25] Right. He doesn't need Marco. He's going to just call them up and they'll do what he wants.

Beth [00:10:30] That's right.

Sarah [00:10:30] And so that's what I'm trying to think about. The picks are a reflection of his priorities. You would think the more careful picks would be his top priorities, but it's the opposite.

Beth [00:10:41] That's right.

Sarah [00:10:42] The picks that seem the sloppiest are where he's just trusting his gut. And I do think to a certain extent, I mean, it depends on the pick. I'm not really convinced that Matt Gaerz or Tulsi Gabbard will get through the Senate. These are people who have to sit in intelligence briefings. They understand. They know what's at risk. Many, many of them were either in Congress during September 11th or alive at the bare minimum to remember what's actually at stake here. And so we'll see. I am encouraged that John Thune is the majority leader, that they didn't bow to the Rick Scott of it all. I always try to remind myself that at the bare minimum, we don't need them to be good people. We need them to be people who want to protect their own power. And I believe senators want to protect their own power at the minimum, which is not super encouraging. But I do think is a consistent theme you can hold tight to in American history.

Beth [00:11:38] I hope that's true. Let me play devil's advocate for a second. And maybe not even devil's advocate, but here's another thing I'm trying to get right with in my own mind. Since 2016, I have looked at people like John Thune, people like John Roberts, the chief justice of the Supreme Court. And I have believed that in their hearts these people think Donald Trump is an idiot and very destructive for America. People like Paul Ryan, who was the speaker of the House when Donald Trump was elected, who now sits on the board at Fox News. I tell myself Paul Ryan thinks all this is terrible and is making a series of choices designed to both protect his life and status and income while doing what he tells himself he can do for America. Why have I believed that? What evidence is there that any of that is true? Why would I think that John Roberts is something other than thrilled with the election of Donald Trump? He used his position of power to help facilitate the reelection. He did. So why do I tell myself that in his heart he believes something different?

[00:12:46] If I look at Republican senators, even those who are telling the press, "I was just shocked to hear the name Matt Gaetz." Well, number one, why? Have you been awake since 2016? This is all foreseeable. And number two, what have you done that would make me believe in this circumstance you're finally going to protect your own power? Because true, people want to protect their own power, but that theory doesn't hold about the Republican Party. They gave the whole thing away. There was a hostile takeover by Donald Trump that they did not resist within the party. If Mitch McConnell wanted to protect his own power, I think he had a lot of levers he could have pulled in connection with the 2016 primary. So I'm just trying to maintain an optimism that people will step up where it really matters and do their jobs. And I think you're right that there are some incentives for Republican senators to step up and challenge these nominations. But I also am trying to get rid of this sense that I keep clinging to, that people secretly agree with me when every bit of evidence I have in front of me is that they do not.

Sarah [00:13:59] I am not arguing that they agree with me. I think 2016, 2020, there's a through line where they did protect their own power and they expanded it. Now they have all three branches of government. So when we were thinking they were more concerned about Donald Trump and how incompetent he was than they were expanding their own party's power, that was wrong. Because he lost a lot, but he just won big. He lost in the midterms, but he just won very big. There's no denying that. The first Republican president to win the popular vote since 2004. So in some ways, they were right. They made a bet to expand their party's power to take back seats in Montana and Ohio, and it worked. I've been thinking this a lot about the pro-life movement. I think we had a narrative that you guys are such hypocrites. You say you care about ethics and religion and you have glommed on to this man who is unethical and definitely not religious. But where are they?

[00:15:13] Because if they were thinking about just politics as a vehicle for power, not politics as a vehicle for personal expression of ethics, then they did pretty good, right? They sucked it up. They said the enemy of the enemy is my friend and they got what they wanted, which was the overturning of Roe v Wade, because politics is about power, not morals. And so when I think about that, I don't have to find them moral actors. I don't have to find them patriotic actors. I have to find them as political actors. And I think it's a couple of things. I think you cannot forget. I don't know about Tulsi Gabbard, but with Matt Gaetz, people just hate him. He's just not likable. He's not a likable person. And he has insulted these people and called them rhinos and gone after them and all these media channels. And I just don't think people like him. And I think for better or for worse, it is hard to accept that some of them might see Donald Trump as incompetent. I don't think they hate him. I think he is likable to a lot of the Republican Party. And I don't mean voters, I mean political actors on Capitol Hill.

Beth [00:16:24] They like to play golf with him.

Sarah [00:16:25] They like to play golf with him.

Beth [00:16:27] It's fun to have dinner with, whatever.

Sarah [00:16:28] They like to be around him. We talk a lot about how he's disloyal, but I don't think he's this angry, screaming monster at people. I think he has those moments, but I don't think he does that all the time. And so I think there's something to that. The fact that he can insult Ted Cruz's father and then they'll come back around. So he's charming at some moments. I don't think that's true for Matt Gaetz. I don't think Matt Gaetz is charming at any moment. And so he feels a little bit different to me. I don't know about Tulsi Gabbard. I don't know at what point they say enough is enough. Well, I think that is I'm done wishing for enough is enough. I think that they have to just justify it. Even if they kill this appointment, it's not going to be some big moral stand. We're not going to have Mr. Smith come to Washington moment where John Thune stands up and says Donald Trump does not respect America's intelligence. They'll make up a reason. And honestly, I don't care what it is.

Beth [00:17:26] I don't care what it is either.

Sarah [00:17:27] When John Cornyn was, like, we're just trying to protect the president and make sure we look out for these appointments are fully vetted. We don't want it blowing back on him. Fine. Say what you want. I don't care. Great. Sounds good. I think that that's the reality at this point. But I just don't think we know. I think it's these appointments. What I am trying to do is not feed the fuel of outrage that creates the story that he is an outsider and a maverick that makes him more powerful. I'm done giving him that. I'm done saying anything but Donald Trump is a politician like every other politician, and feeding this metanarrative that gets him so much earned media for free because we're outraged at him. Any narrative that is like Donald Trump is shredding norms.

[00:18:26] Donald Trump is looking out for himself. Donald Trump is doing this quickly without the normal processes. That is a feature, not a bug, like you said, to so many Americans. And I'm done making that case for him. I'm not going to continue to make the case to America, that Donald Trump upends things because that's what they want, right? I'm here to make the case that Donald Trump is doing the thing that most presidents do. He's just doing it in a way that's not going to get the results people want. So I'm just trying not to, through my outrage, feed the very narrative that seems messed up to me, but actually makes it more convincing and more enticing to the majority of Americans.

Beth [00:19:24] I think that's a good guidepost. And I add to that list my sense that I am not going to tell myself a story about what's going on in anyone's heart. I'm just going to look at their behavior. And a corollary of that principle for me is that I don't want to read any more stories about how people feel about Donald Trump's decisions. Even people who I really respect. Like Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska. I don't care how she feels about these picks. I care what she does. So if she chooses to vote against confirmation, fantastic. If she chooses to caucus with the Democrats, which is what I would like to see her do in this moment, fantastic. Better yet, if she thinks that we are beyond the pale and a group of senators get together who could make a difference, that's what they ought to do.

[00:20:13] I don't believe they'll do any of that because there's no evidence so far indicating that they might. And I'm not going to hold on to hope. That is silly in the face of all the evidence. I also am not going to go for four years asking how Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski feel about things. That was dumb in the first administration and it's dumb this time. There are two senators of 100. And all 100 of those people have tremendous power if they choose to exercise it. And that's what I want to see right now, not people opining about how things should be or how they wish they were. I just want to see how people choose to exercise the power that they have.

Sarah [00:20:53] Yeah, I was at a meeting recently and I said I'm allergic to anything that sounds like I could have said it or read it or seen it as a take in 2016. Because if we are doing that, then we have learned nothing. Then we are stuck in a further cycle. I didn't even like Axios this morning that's like the tectonic shift is if everything's going to be close. And I'm like, you know what? No, I reject that. That's not what it means. That's not what it has to mean for five more years or 10 more years. The thing that hit me the hardest was when Matt Iglesias said this moment in 2004 when everybody was ringing the death knell for the Democratic Party, it was an incredibly regenerative time because people were whiteboarding. I'm here for bold ideas and interesting strategies. I'm here for Rahm Emanuel because Rahm Emanuel is bare knuckles in a way that I think is needed. I don't want any more hand wringing. I don't want any more Monday morning quarterbacking. There's a million reasons we got here. I want to know what you think will get us out of it. And the bolder the idea, the better. I keep thinking about this moment in Almost Famous, one of my favorite movies with Frances McDormand. If you haven't ever seen Almost Famous, you should. It's about the true-ish story of Cameron Crowe being a teenage reporter for Rolling Stone for famous 70s rock bands. And she gets on the phone with the lead singer of the rock band, and he's trying to charm her. And she says:

Audio clip: Frances McDormand [00:22:48] Be bold that mighty forces will come to your aid. Curtis said that. It's not too late for you to become a person of substance, Russell.

Sarah [00:22:58] That's just what I'd like to say to everyone: Democratic strategists, American citizens, United States senators. It's not too late to become a person of substance. Be bold. This is a moment for boldness. That's what people want from the Trump administration. They want boldness. They don't care if they're vetted. They don't care if it's sloppy. Americans want bold ideas. Some of them are very, very bad. Where are the good ones? I'm ready to hear the good ones.

Beth [00:23:30] And I think that part of that boldness is everyone just saying what they think. I have really noticed, especially over the past year, that almost any space that I operate in, someone comes up to me after a meeting, after a talk I've given, whatever I've done, and said, "You're just so real." Well, everybody should just be so real. That's a weird compliment. I mean, thank you. I'm not trying to be ugly about it. But it is a problem that so many people everywhere in all spaces sound like they're holding their tongues constantly or sound like they're using a script. It's becoming maddening to try to have a conversation about anything because people are becoming so careful. And I'm not talking about woke stuff here. I'm talking about just normal communication. We are getting robotic in our normal communication. So I don't want to read stories about Democrats who are mad at Nancy Pelosi for giving interviews and saying some of what she thinks. I think it's just a tiny fraction of what she thinks, by the way, but a teeny fraction of real.

Sarah [00:24:42] I'm open for hearing all of it.

Beth [00:24:44] I'd like to hear it all. And I'm not going to agree with all of it. I didn't agree with everything she said in that very controversial interview that she gave The New York Times. But say it. And if you're mad that she's saying it, the answer is not leaking to a reporter that she really needs to respect her new role in Congress. It is filling the vacuum. That is the problem, I think, with so much not just in Democratic Party politics, but in corporations, in nonprofits, all over the place. There are a ton of vacuums because we are all being so careful. And I am a careful person. I like care itself and I like cautiousness. Both things. But I also believe in leadership. And if we're going to get the absolute ugliest manifestation of what leadership looks like, which we are, that's what the next four years are going to be. I agree with you. I would like to see a bold leadership bringing forward good as well.

[00:25:47] Music Interlude.

Sarah [00:25:55] I've been having this conversation in my private life with a couple of people and thinking about it myself. Because the good news is in that meeting that I was talking about, where I said I'm ready for boldness, it does seem like a lot of the solutions coming forward is it's time to listen. There's a lot we don't understand. And that's the problem with care, right? It sounds terrible as a sentence. So often we decide the care people need without asking what their needs are. We decide what care looks like. We decided that care looks like carefulness with our language. We decided that people are voting against their interest because we decided what their interests are instead of asking them. I think the first step of being bold is saying we got it wrong and instead of intellectualizing why, let's go ask. Maggie said something that I can't stop thinking about. When we're talking about this divide between college education and not-- which can get so patronizing. Within milliseconds, that conversation starts to get really bad. I cannot emphasize this enough. I wish I was that guy on Instagram who runs across the field with a giant red flag. Every time that comes up, I just want everybody to go stop.

[00:27:28] Because Maggie made a good point, like, is that college education or is that a remnant of the pandemic between people who could work from home and people who could not? And who got shut down and told, we'll give you some money, but you'll lose all momentum, you'll lose all growth, you'll lose customers that you can't get back, as opposed to people who can sit at home and work from home. I think that's a fair point. I think that's a fair thing to ask people and to listen. And you're not going to get one answer and you're not going to get one solution that everybody will like. The other thing I keep reminding myself of right now is that people don't learn the lessons you want them to. I want everybody to learn from 2004 and the Iraq war to never trust Republicans again.

[00:28:16] But instead, they learned that Donald Trump, who rallied to the Republican Party and said "We shouldn't have done that" was what they wanted. I want people to learn what I want them to learn, but that's not how it works. I want if this administration to fall flat on its face, for it to be the death knell of MAGA, I've wanted that for nine years. Every time something horrific happens, every time he does something ridiculous, that people the scales will fall from their eyes. But that shit only happens in the Bible. I don't see a lot of scales falling from the eyes in American politics basically ever. And so I'm just trying to put that right. In 2016, I told myself he's never going to learn what I want him to learn. And I think now I need to remember nobody's going to learn what I want them to learn. And I just need to remember that.

Beth [00:29:08] And what am I not learning that someone else wants me to learn? That is the question I need to be open to, not sitting and thinking I've had all the answers all along. I hate that. I hate being in conversation with someone who just had the answers all along if we'd only listened to them. And that's been true for 40 years. You know what I mean? That's the worst. So I want to be in a growth mindset and a learner's mind and all of the things. But I want to do that not fearful of saying what I really think. I really, really disliked some of the pressure that I felt over the past year to not say anything that could possibly make someone think something, negative, small in a quiet voice in their mind about Joe Biden. That's a bad place to be. And I tried to resist it where I could, but I didn't resist it everywhere. And I don't want to do that. I want to show up and just think in a real present first draft, second draft, third draft way about everything with everyone in all spaces.

[00:30:16] The other thing I cannot stand right now that I feel happening culturally is a sense that, whew, that election was tough. Let's just seal that off in the corner, and everything else let's just keep marching forward in exactly the same way we've been. If this election is not a wakeup call for everything. I don't know what we're doing. I don't know what we're doing because the forces that led to this election are present in everything. I do not believe this election was about policy at all. I believe this election is a cry of people in the United States of saying, I'm really unhappy with everything. Somebody fix it. And even those of us who voted for the vice president-- and I do not want to diminish that she got a lot of votes.

Sarah [00:31:07] Millions in votes.

Beth [00:31:09] A lot of people voted for the vice president. Even those of us who voted for and with the vice president wanted to hear from her, what she's going to change. Everyone is ready for some things to change pretty dramatically. And that is going to require a lot of open, honest conversation within the halls of power, but without them, too. And I want to be part of that.

Sarah [00:31:34] Well, to your Joe Biden of it all, it is very easy when you're on the back foot against a propagandist, master politician like Donald Trump, to think any criticism emboldens him. Or any criticism is ridiculous because he's so much worse. I've already heard people saying stop beating up on the Democratic Party; I mean, look at him. That's not gotten us anywhere and it's certainly not gotten us stronger. So it cannot be for the next four years "yes, but their idea is worse." It cannot be. We definitely have heard that from young voters. But he is worse is not a winning argument. It's not going to be a winning argument in elections, it's not going to be a winning argument with policy. This is a debate of ideas. Sometimes in a debate of ideas your idea is going to get criticism, even if it's the best one on the table. Good. Then it'll just become the even better one on the table. We have to be open to debate and analysis and criticism, even when the stakes are very high. Now, I do think there is a point in politics where everybody has to shut up and march in the right direction. I do.

Beth [00:32:53] Of course!

Sarah [00:32:53] I think there's a part of that in a campaign where it's like we just need all voices speaking with one voice in the same direction. But that's not enough either. They have to work in concert. There's moments for that, but that can't be the whole moment or else you are blinded and you miss things. And it's difficult. There isn't just one Democratic Party. It might get a little tighter if they put Rahm Emanuel in charge. But I think that that's going to be the difficulty, too. And, look, that's true of the Republican Party, too. They're already fighting. They're already bickering. They're already leaking. And that's going to continue because that's how he likes it. That is, again, a feature, not a bug for him. And we'll see how the American populace feels about that, too. If they want a single message; if they want everybody marching in lockstep or not. Maybe they don't. Maybe they want lots of internal discord in the administration so they don't get too powerful or do anything too big. I don't know how that works when people are unhappy with everything and they want big solutions, but we're going to find out.

Beth [00:33:56] I can just tell you that this American (Beth Silvers speaking for just me) does not care about the bickering and the leaking. I will not read those stories. I will not discuss them. I do not care. I care what gets done. That's it. Softer on people, harder in politics. In my community, do you need a hand? Do you need to vent about something? Do you need help with a project? Do you need to just run something by anyone? I'm there for you. I will have coffee. I will have lunch. I will think with you. I will show up with food at your door. I will do anything I can to make life easier for people in person. But in politics, I just could give a shit how people feel about how this is going down. I want to see what they do. We talked this morning briefly about the Supreme Court. I think Justice Sotomayor should have retired in January because this was all very foreseeable. And I say that I respect her. She has waged a long, hard, consistent, just in my opinion, dissenting campaign on capital punishment that I am so grateful for. And also the lessons of the past 10 years are that she should have retired and let Joe Biden put somebody who, I don't know, is like 40 years old on the court to be there for freaking ever, because that's what it is now. Those are the new rules and we got to play by them. Those of us who care about the things that I think most of us listening to the show care about need to play by those rules.

Sarah [00:35:29] Yeah. And, listen, I'm done being institutionalist. I don't really care about any of the three liberal justices. Unless they're going to show up at Senate and spill the secrets and really disrupt what's going on the Supreme Court, I don't really care. Ladies, I'm sorry. I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I don't want to hear your passionate dissent anymore. Do something about it. This isn't about a legal debate anymore. If you can't see that, then you're not as smart as I thought you were. This is not about precedent or citations or any of the bullshit I was taught in law school. This is a bare knuckle political fight. Play or get off the court. This is what's happening in the Supreme Court everywhere. And so I'm ready for people who own that and are ready to come armed for the battle. That's why I have enormous respect for AOC, because I think she sees that. I think she gets it. I'm here for anybody who can see with clear eyes what's going on right now and is ready to-- and listen, steel fist in a Gucci glove. Say what you want about Nancy Pelosi. She gets it. I want people who get it, who see it, who aren't hand wringing with sadness about the people who vote against their interest. You will never, ever catch either of those women talking about people voting against their interests. Never. Never would you hear those words come out of Nancy Pelosi or AOC's mouth. And there's a reason for that. There's a reason for that. Follow their lead, everybody.

Beth [00:37:01] We'll obviously continue to talk about all this. There's no way to put a bow on it because this is just what it is. And we're just going to continue to try to get right with what it is and figure out how we can help and be bold.

Sarah [00:37:12] Be bold and mighty forces will come to your aid.

Beth [00:37:15] I'm ready for the mighty forces and the aid. Let's do it. Let's be bold. But some of them, it's time. Sarah, we always end our show talking about something Outside of politics. And I don't know that this topic is necessarily apolitical. I'm not sure that any topic is right now. But you have some important information to share with me and our audience about the sexiest man alive.

Sarah [00:37:43] It's apolitical. John Krasinski was named sexiest man alive. Do you think that John Krasinski is the sexiest man alive?

Beth [00:37:52] I think Chad Silvers is the sexiest man alive, first of all. But secondly, I think John Krasinski is cute and relatable.

Sarah [00:38:01] Right.

Beth [00:38:02] Even when he is in kind of a steely position, I think he's still very can I borrow a cup of sugar? Will you coach my kid’s soccer team?

Sarah [00:38:11] Haven't heard the word sexy come out of your mouth.

Beth [00:38:14] I think those things are very sexy. I do. I appreciate and value these things.

Sarah [00:38:18] You think a cup of sugar is sexy?

Beth [00:38:20] Sure. I am here for men who feel like good neighbors and good people. And I think if you're going to give this title, you probably want to push a little harder than that.

Sarah [00:38:29] Right. One time I asked Amos what sexy meant when he was little and he said pretty and a little mean.

Beth [00:38:44] Pretty and a little mean.

Sarah [00:38:45] Pretty and a little mean. I think he was getting to something there. You know what I mean? It got to have a little edge. Sexy has got a little edge. John Krasinski ain't got no edges. Okay. So the controversy is that we all know who the sexiest man alive is right now. It's Glen Powell. That's who the sexiest man alive is right now. Come on. Who would debate that? Have you seen him in?

Beth [00:39:08] Yes, I have.

Sarah [00:39:09] And you've seen Twisters?

Beth [00:39:11] I have.

Sarah [00:39:12] Sexy.

Beth [00:39:13] Yeah. He's really not my cup of tea, honestly.

Sarah [00:39:16] But objectively sexy. The first sexiest man alive was Brad Pitt. We got the vibe. You see what I'm saying?

Beth [00:39:24] Okay.

Sarah [00:39:24] But he turned it down. And the gossip is that it's for purchase. You can just buy the sexiest man alive title.

Beth [00:39:33] What? Urgh! Is there no integrity anywhere anymore?

Sarah [00:39:39] No. And that it's for stars who feel like they're fading a little bit from the public consciousness and need their moment. And if you go back over the last five years, you're like, yeah, it was like John Legend, Blake Shelton. Whereas, if you go back to 95, it's like Brad Pitt, George Clooney, Pierce Brosnan, Jude Law, Johnny Depp got it twice which is gross. But objectively, these are the movie stars that are killing that that everybody's like, oh my God, where are these hot men coming from? John Krasinski, no. So just so you know, the process has been correct.

Beth [00:40:19] Well, I think that is not apolitical. I think that is not apolitical. I think people don't trust anything. Look, I don't want to beat up on John Krasinski. I think he's doing interesting things.

Sarah [00:40:33] He's not the sexiest man alive.

Beth [00:40:36] The interesting that he's done is I think his relationship with his wife is great. So I don't want to say anything negative about John Krasinski. I am really curious about why Glen Powell would say no to this, just because he thinks that that means he's a husband.

Sarah [00:40:49] Yeah. The last four years, I mean, it's been-- it puts the puzzle pieces together for me. Because the last few years when [inaudible] I was like, wait, what? What do you mean John Legend? What do you mean Paul Rudd? Like Paul Rudd is very handsome and seemingly ageless, not the sexiest man alive. And Blake Shelton? Give me a break. I was confused as a person who came up in the golden era of sexiest man alive when it was truly--- again, let me just say this clearly. I have no love for Brad Pitt. I'm uninterested in anything Brad Pitt does, says, or makes anymore. I think he's made some poor life choices, but he was, in fact, the sexiest man alive.

Beth [00:41:32] Are there any of these rankings worth holding on to? Because I feel like right now this is all very broken. We know that U.S. News and World Report is terrible for higher education. Now we know the sexiest man alive is for sale. Whenever you see the super lawyers, they are paying for that in there. There's so many places where it's all just a joke. So should we just quit?

Sarah [00:41:56] I think there's a deeper thing here which has to do with People magazine and that People magazine used to be (stay with me here) of some journalistic integrity. And it has gone the way of so many of those-- I think Helen Pearson did a whole thing in on this. That it's gone the way of just churning out that particular form of internet content. It's the air filters, right? Everybody does an air filter ranking, and so the website that actually does air filter rankings is getting buried in the Google leads because the big media companies that own People and home website and they're just churning out this content. But People is a part of that. It is no longer what it used to be. I used to love People magazine. I collected all the celebrity wedding People magazines. They were my favorites. I kept them. I had like eight years’ worth. Again, they used to actually cover celebrities, but that's not what happens anymore. Now it's DeuxMoi and the online gossip sites that are actually getting the stuff because everything has changed.

[00:43:04] So yeah I mean I think the sexiest man alive as the cover of People magazine is just a shell for what People magazine used to be. It's not that anymore. And that's happened with a lot of those rankings and places on the Internet. There's so few places where you can go get an actual review, right? We're awash in reviews, but also no good reviews. There was a big thing about like what happened with Wirecutter. We used to really could depend on Wirecutter. And there's so few places-- even like Consumer Reports now is on pay. Like you have to get a paid subscription to Consumer Reports to get any of it. But because there's so much else out there that'll just tell you the top five air filters and the top five sexiest men alive.

Beth [00:43:47] Well, then I think I'm disinterested.

Sarah [00:43:50] Yeah. I think reviews and rankings are of limited usefulness anymore for sure. It's very hard, I think, to figure out what thing you want to buy or what is actually the best. And it's very difficult.

Beth [00:44:04] And I think reviews are pretty much useless on the internet now, too. I really just need to talk to someone who's used a thing or gone to a restaurant or stayed in a place.

Sarah [00:44:13] Not so bad. We can go back to that. We could go back to just asking people.

Beth [00:44:16] I think asking people is really good. I yelled at my car speaker yesterday because I was listening to the head of products for ChatGPT saying that he's so happy he can ask ChatGPT for a substitute in a recipe because now he doesn't have to call his parents and beg them for that kind of information. And I yelled, "Please call your parents." And that's how I feel. Let's just bug each other for all the things because everything from the sexiest man alive, to the Yelp review, to the straight up garbage--

Sarah [00:44:47] To the phones, the Internet, it broke everything.

Beth [00:44:50] Everything.

Sarah [00:44:51] We need bold solutions moving forward.

Beth [00:44:53] We do.

Sarah [00:44:54] And they're not going to come from ChatGPT.

Beth [00:44:55] No. No, we have to bug each other for the bold solutions. I think that's part of it. People are a good use of time. Always. Well, thank you for spending time with us. We so appreciate it. We'll be back with you on Friday. Until then, have the best week available to you.

[00:45:10] Music Interlude.

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

Beth: Alise Napp is our Managing Director. Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers:

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