Trump’s Tariffs, Republicans’ Response, and Booker’s Stand

Are members of Congress ready to start pushing back on the administration?

It is becoming clearer and clearer to me that surviving and thriving in American politics will involve two - seemingly paradoxical - instincts. It requires feeding the ever-present need for attention while in service to a broader and long-range strategy. It means coupling a breaking news story about a Signal group chat between security officials with a Senate Committee hearing on global security threats. It means planning a history-making Senate speech the week of special elections. It means launching Democratic primary challenges during budget reconciliation week.

It means saying, "I'm doing all of this for a reason, and the reason is to accomplish something for you." I see Democrats doing that.

I see Donald Trump - always the master of attention - starting to stumble. For so long, his broader strategy was aligned with his base's, or at least, they felt he was honest about when he was only pursuing his interests. "Yeah, I game the system, but I do it for you." Whether it was true or not, it didn't matter. Now, it feels like Trump has been set free from his base. He's got plenty of money and is no longer at risk of prosecution. Instead of telling them he's going to deliver everyone to Utopia, suddenly the message is, "This is going to be tough. There will be some pain." Trump is not only decoupling the United States from the global order. He's decoupling his interests from his voters.

How long will it take the Republican Party to figure that out? We talk about that and the Democratic Party finding its footing on today's show.

-Sarah

Topics Discussed

• Tariffs and Liberation Day

• Congressional Republicans and the Federal Budget

• Cory Booker’s Speech and a Glimmer of Hope for Democrats

• Outside of Politics: Produce Wars

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Episode Resources

Pantsuit Politics Resources

• Mark your calendars for next week! Tickets to our Cincinnati live show will go on sale to premium members on Monday, April 7th at 12pm EST. Sales will open to everyone on Wendesday, April 9th at 12pm EST.

Tariffs, the Budget, and Congress

• Stock Markets Slide After Trump Unveils Tariffs (The New York Times)

• Mexico and Canada Stand to Gain U.S. Market Share (The Wall Street Journal)

• Trump announces 10 percent tariffs on all imports, additional taxes for some 60 countries (The Washington Post)

• Trade in Goods with Heard and McDonald Islands (Census.gov)

• Where We Stand: The Fiscal, Economic, and Distributional Effects of All U.S. Tariffs Enacted in 2025 Through April 2 (The Budget Lab at Yale)

• Bessent Signals US on Debt-Limit ‘Warning Track’ for May or June (Bloomberg)

Nicholas’s Citrus Recipe

• 6 cups tropical fruit, cut into 3/4 inch pieces (pineapple, oranges, mango, grapefruit)

• 1/4 cup chopped cilantro

• Juice of 1 lime

• Chili powder to taste (I use about a half teaspoon)

• Salt to taste

Combine in a bowl. Toss until evenly coated.

Show Credits

Pantsuit Politics is hosted by Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers. The show is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our Managing Director and Maggie Penton is our Director of Community Engagement.

Our theme music was composed by Xander Singh with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

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Episode Transcript

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:09] And this is Beth Silvers.

Sarah [00:00:10] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. Today we're talking about Liberation Day, talking about machinations in both the Senate and the House, special elections in Wisconsin and Florida, and Cory Booker's history-making Senate speech. And Outside of Politics, Beth, we're both going to talk about a real old fashioned word. Groceries. It's old-fashion.

Beth [00:00:33] A collection of things in a bag, I hear.

Sarah [00:00:35] It's a collection of things in a bag. Specifically, we're going to talk about the produce aisle. Trust us, it's interesting. You're going want to show up and listen to that.

Beth [00:00:43] I have been talking to a number of friends lately about how when I was in college, all of the people from the Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky area seemed like they were in a cult to me because they talked about how amazing it is here all the time and how they couldn't wait to get back after college and I was like what's wrong with them? And now I live here and they were right. It's nice. It's a really nice place to live. It's really nice to be and I want to invite you to come visit me here this summer, next week. I'm so excited because our 10th anniversary live show in Cincinnati has tickets that are finally going on sale. We've been talking to you about it and we are ready for you to buy your tickets and come visit us here in what I believe is a beautiful part of the world. Premium members will have the opportunity to start buying tickets on Monday, April 7th at noon Eastern time. If you are a premium member, you'll also get a discount code via email the morning of the 7th because we appreciate your support so much. And then we'll open sales up to everyone on Wednesday, April 9th at Noon Eastern.

Sarah [00:01:38] The show itself is Saturday, July 19th at the National Underground Road Freedom Center right downtown in Cincinnati. It's going to be such a fun night celebrating 10 years of the show and our partnership with Substack who is sponsoring our birthday party. And after the show itself. We're going to have an exclusive after party that you can get tickets to. The after party is going to be a little one-on-one time. You can chat with us. We're going to have photos. We're going to have birthday cake.

Beth [00:02:04] That's the most important part- the birthday cake.

Sarah [00:02:06] Birthday cake and much more. So we're really, really excited about not only the chance to celebrate at the show, but the chance to just hang out with all of y'all afterwards. So mark your calendars for next week. When tickets go on sale, you're not going to want to miss it. Next up, Liberation Day is here. Again. Do you feel liberated?

Beth [00:02:39] From a world where it was easy to get the things I needed at relatively low prices quickly, I guess so. Sure.

Sarah [00:02:47] This is our third Liberation Day, I'd kind of forgotten about that.

Beth [00:02:50] We were liberated on Election Day.

Sarah [00:02:52] And then we were liberated on Inauguration Day.

Beth [00:02:55] Right. Wonder what we'll be liberated from next.

Sarah [00:02:57] Do you feel thrice liberated?

Beth [00:03:01] Now that is a question. I feel thrice something.

Sarah [00:03:05] Well, the liberation was boulder? That seems like a really kind spin.

Beth [00:03:15] It's very generous.

Sarah [00:03:18] I'll do that now because that's probably as generous as it's going to get than anyone expected. We have gotten 10% across the board on all countries, starting on Saturday.

Beth [00:03:36] Because it's an emergency.

Sarah [00:03:37] It's an emergency. It's an economic emergency. This is not negotiation. This is an emergency, that's what his advisors are saying.

Beth [00:03:45] Do you understand what the emergency is?

Sarah [00:03:50] Yes, I believe the emergency is that we no longer live in the 1900s where there was a massive manufacturing base In the United States economy. It's a long emergency. The emergency has been here for a while

Beth [00:04:07] That's where I struggle because everything's an emergency right now. I've read a lot of executive orders about all the emergencies that are happening.

Sarah [00:04:13] Yeah, everything's a war, everything is an emergency, everyone's a threat.

Beth [00:04:17] And I'm trying to understand whether emergency means anything other than we don't like it anymore.

Sarah [00:04:23] I don't think so. So they told us-- well, they didn't tell anybody much. That's the first thing. They didn't even tell the Republican party anything. They had no talking points. Nobody knew what this was going to look like. I read some analysis that was basically this is giving first Trump administration. Well, last minute little slapdash. So they were really supposed to be based on each individual country's tariff rate. But really it looks like they just did quick math on the trade deficit. I guess doing it the way they said they were doing it took more time than they had. That's my best guess. It was a little more complicated math, little more complicate analysis, didn't have time for it. Even though they've been talking about terrorists for a very long time. They get down to the wire. So let's just divide. Let's divide trade deficits and we'll take it from there.

Beth [00:05:26] I have a different theory. Because if it were just going to be reciprocal, you wouldn't do any math at all. You would say, how much do they tax our stuff? Okay, we'll do that. If it's a bunch of different rates for a bunch of different things, maybe you do an average. This, I think, took more work because I think they wanted higher numbers. And I think the trade deficit is what Trump has mostly always cared about. He's talked about that since he started running for president the first time, that America shouldn't have these enormous trade deficits with other countries. We should have trade surpluses everywhere. And so I think this got him to the kind of inflated, shocking numbers he wanted. And I think he didn't talk to anybody about it because he was producing. He brought a chart out. He was proud of what he put together yesterday. That was the Rose Garden, that was the charts. There is a lot about this that gets to his apprentice background. And so, I think the trade deficits were necessary to get him up around 50% with China, for example.

Sarah [00:06:26] Yes, there was a lot of analysis that basically said sometimes what Americans want to buy from a country is different from what that country wants to buy from us. And the example used was Japan and America. Beth, I have recently been to Japan. I can tell you why the Japanese don't want to buy from us as much as we buy from them, because they make stuff with a high emphasis on quality. I'm not saying that we're like lazy and slapdash. I'm just saying it's a different country. They have different resources. They have a different culture. To me, that's what's so simplistic about this. It's like, of course, there's going to be trade deficits. We're all good at different things. We all have different sources, different cultures that we are exporting, different foods we grow, different foods and products we're better or worse at producing based on climate, based on any number of things. The brilliance of this global economic order is that everybody can depend on their particular strengths and be rewarded for their particular strength. And he just reduces everything down to such a simplistic, again, it's not about diversity, certainly not through strength through diversity. It's if I'm winning, you're losing.

Beth [00:07:52] There's an apples and oranges quality on our side too because what we export is mostly services. That is a real thing and a real problem perhaps that Trump has been good at speaking to. There is something real in the fact that America mostly exports services and imports goods, okay? That might mean that our economy is out of balance in some ways. I think it probably does. That's why the math doesn't math though, because he is trying to tie this to some logic other than my worldview is that America should make more stuff. And he's doing it in this way that prevents America from making more stuff because making more staff requires years of planning and a belief in the stability of our political landscape to do the kind of investment necessary, to bring more factories online to make more stuff here. Now, there are a lot of complex reasons why companies haven't been doing that and might not want to do it in the future. And that might not be the vision that Americans actually want if we sit and think about it for a second.

[00:09:03] But I keep thinking about him in this administration as doing everything at like a pornographic level. It's not just that we see a problem and we want to address it. It's that we want to address it in this on steroids distorted version of reality way. If he wants America to make more stuff, there are a lot of tools at his disposal to help us get there. This is like I am big mad and I'm going to show everybody with my big chart how big mad I am. It's the same thing with immigration, with the deportation of the gangs. It's not just I want to address crime or I want to address people coming into this country and exploiting that opportunity. it's I'm going to put them on planes and send them, banish them to an absolute hell hole where we can't find them again. Every single thing they're doing right now is having to be done to this degree that I think is just ruinous. And that's what I see in these tariffs. I hope I'm wrong, but this looks ruinous to me.

Sarah [00:10:10] Well, and look, let me speak as transparently about my personal values and policy preferences, okay? It's not just 10%, okay? These are on top of any tariffs that are already in place and any sort of reciprocal tariffs that come about. So China is looking at an enormous amount of tariffs. And any Chinese governmental strategy to move the production of Vietnam is going to be met with also very high 46% plus tariffs from Vietnam. If this prevents Americans from ordering buckets of fast fashion from Sheen and Temu, I'm not going to be sad about it. Textiles are one of the industries that they're citing that's going to be bit hit the hardest. If this decimates fast fashion, I'm okay with that. I'm just going to be honest. We're talking about dire consequences for the global economy. Some parts of the global economy externalize those externalities we were talking about in ways that have caused a great amount of harm. Do I think he cares about any of that? I do not.

[00:11:29] Some of these unintended consequences, I'm not going to hate. I hate Sheen. I hate Temu. I think they're terrible for everyone involved. But any sort of reordering-- which is what he's done. That pornographic approach in our global order that has prioritized really stability and growth for the top 5%. That's what this global order has done. It has prioritized stability and it's made it very easy for people at the top of the economic ladder to make an enormous amount of money and build enormous amounts of wealth. And that prioritization of stability and the fact that it is propped up by people with lots of wealth and power, to reorder it was going to be dramatic, right? Or it was going to have to be very, very careful. Well, that's not what this is. That's not what's happening with immigration. It's not what's happening inside our federal government. It's this dramatic approach that is going to cause enormous suffering in pursuit of that reordering. And the reason is because I don't think they know what comes on the other end of it.

Beth [00:12:47] I don't see any evidence that this reordering will benefit anyone other than the top, too. I think it will hurt the top in the long run, but I think the top will still come out on top on the other side. I have problems with fast fashion as well. And that again is something that will hurt the people who are on the lowest rung of our economic ladder. It will. The cheap goods are most beneficial to raising the standard of living of people who live in relative poverty.

Sarah [00:13:24] I don't know though; is that true?

Beth [00:13:25] I think it's true. I think we're going to see it.

Sarah [00:13:28] If that's true, then that means consumer goods raises your quality of life. But why is everyone so mad? If they're swimming in a sea of cheap consumer goods, but they can't afford a house or healthcare, and their kids are on those cheap technology, turned into zombies, have we raised anybody's quality of live? I'm just asking honestly.

Beth [00:13:49] I think there's a difference between the standard of living and quality of life. Fair enough. I don't think a lot of people in this country are swimming in cheap goods though. I think those cheap goods are their goods and that has enabled more people to live at a higher standard of living before. Does that mean everything's great and perfect and we shouldn't change it? No, but I do think that the people who are going to get hit hardest by all of this are the people who are already hit hard by the economy.

Sarah [00:14:17] No, I agree with that, but I just don't think it's because they're going to have less access to cheap consumer goods. I think it is because the food is going to cost more. I think it’s because services could plummet if the EU retaliates in that way. They are an enormous importer of those American services and that stuff trickles down in a way that is regressive, always. But I don't think it's because people aren't going to be able to get clothes on Shein or Temu anymore.

Beth [00:14:46] Sure, I don't think that's the sum total of it. I just want to be cognizant of the fact that like if you've got young children who are quickly cycling through wardrobes because their bodies are growing, fast fashion is a part of your standard of living. This is going to hurt people.

Sarah [00:15:05] No, that's true. Because here's the thing, and that's what I was thinking about when you're talking, too. It's because it's one thing when you have a right to repair or you have access to any sort of, I don't know, old school home-ec education. Like my mom used to whip up an outfit in the morning. That's not a skill people have anymore. I would like to get to a place where people have access to better things that last longer. But like that said, this is not what he's doing. He's not building a road. He's not giving people the right to repair their electronics so they still have access to what it means to have a modern life right now. He's saying, okay, well, let's work with cotton growers in America so that people can have-- you know what I'm saying? Because if you want to go sew something now, it's expensive. Fabric is expensive. So it's like keeping high quality goods that you could maybe stretch out. You're plunking people in the middle of something they've depended on, which is just being able to buy new if they need it and not giving them any tools that we used to have around repair, replace, mending, any of that, as far as just consumer goods.

Beth [00:16:26] This is why I used to call myself a conservative. Because the federal government's tools tend to be really blunt instruments with really far reaching consequences. So we're off on a tangent now about textiles because that's one component of what's going to get hit by these sweeping announcements. If the goal of the federal government is to say, "You know what, fast fashion exploits a lot of people; it's bad for the environment; it's ultimately bad for quality of life here in the United States and we want to fix that," then you go at targeted solutions to fix that. And you've named a bunch of ideas for what those targeted solutions could be. This isn't targeted at anything. There's nothing being targeted here. The whole world is included. Every news outlet this morning is focusing on the fact that they included islands with no population in this list of tariffs.

Sarah [00:17:19] Just penguins! Just the ones with penguins. Why are we mad at penguins?

Beth [00:17:22] And that's very click-baity, but it also does make the point that this isn't targeted at anything.

Sarah [00:17:27] Yeah. You see an exception from Canada and Mexico only because they've already been hit so hard by these reciprocal tariffs. And I think because car makers came and it's just the last person who talked to him, came in and they were, like, you can't do this. This will decimate everything. And I think that in broad strokes-- I had this conversation last night with someone, especially people of our age, because I don't know about you, but I really remember it's a part of my childhood, the Made in America campaign. I think in broad strokes, people think, yeah, sure, I want more things made in America. Then you better be prepared for it to cost more. You better be prepare for your waterways and your air to have some factories polluting it-- or maybe not, but that's the externalities that cheap goods extract. These economies, some of these countries have taken on those externalities so that we can have access to this stuff.

[00:18:26] And so if we want it all to be made here, then we better be prepared to take on some of those externalities and pay more because it doesn't even matter if we figure out the externalities around production. We just want to make more money. We cost more as labor goes. And so he just doesn't have a vision for that. And propping up manufacturing in your country, again, ask Germany how that goes. They're in trouble right now as AI rolls out. There's no AI product coming out of Europe. Y'all criticize this. You're right about that. But why is it? Why is it? Because Europeans take-- this is what's so bananas to me. They're like, they did it and it's not fair and it doesn't work. Now, we're going to do it. I'm like, wait, what? That doesn't-- help me make it make sense. Help me make it makes sense.

Beth [00:19:13] Well, everybody's going to retaliate. So that's step two, right? Trump talks about this as though none of these costs will be passed on to consumers when they will be; and as though no one else has any tools at their disposal. And the European Union is talking about restricting our banks from access to certain markets. You want to talk about reordering the economy? That is wild to consider what that could mean and the way that that could change access to credit. It's hard for me to conceptualize all the ripple effects of something that is this blunt.

Sarah [00:19:52] Well, he should recognize that isn't it Deutsche Bank that bailed his butt out so many times.

Beth [00:19:57] Yes. Over and over.

Sarah [00:19:58] Here's the thing, the danger here-- because the European Union is also using some very pointed language like China don't think you're going to come dump your goods here. Because I think the most positive response would be some coordination. You would see coordination. You would see people moving closer to China and farther away from us, which you will see individually. I think, absolutely. You're going to see people go, "You're not dependable, we're going to China." But what would be even smarter is a level of coordination so that we're not in these like Europe has a trade war with the United States and they have a trade with China and China has all these. To have some level of coordination. Which I think if this was happening in like 2009-- maybe not 2009, that's probably too close to the recession, but like 2012 or 2005, I think you would have seen that. But right now post pandemic, with the instability that all this populism and anti-incumbency has washed across the globe, I think you're less likely to see that. You're less to see coordination that could wrap this up sooner.

[00:21:12] I think what I'm worried about is that there will be just spiraling trade wars not only between the U.S. and the world, but between the U.S. and everybody else. And I think what's so striking, this graph that the New York Times has on its homepage is that you just see everybody's splitting off. You just see decoupling. Up until the Trump administration, you see these global markets rising and falling together. And now you see Germany going way up and then falling, but not as steep as the United States and Japan. You're just seeing everybody kind of splinter apart. And that's where global economies, when they're splintered, people have a lot less to lose in global conflicts because they're like, well, who cares? Who cares if I have a war with you? Because we're not trading partners. I don't have any economic skin in this game. And that where you go back to the old days. The old, old days where the world was defined by that sort of-- I don't know if anybody remembers we called them World Wars for a reason.

Beth [00:22:21] Yeah, and I think this administration is comfortable with that. I think that's where they would like to see the world go. They don't like NATO. They don't the United Nations. They don't like any kind of global coordination. And I think it's domestically where they want to go, too. Senator Chris Murphy has been beating this drum that this is not economic policy. This is anti-democratic policy because the effect of these tariffs will be to make more businesses in the United States beholden to the administration. I want a waiver for my company. Can you do me a solid on this particular good? Can we get an exemption here? That this is just designed to give the president more control over the economy and therefore over the participants in the economy. And since he doesn't have a line item veto, this is the equivalent of giving him that, right? He can just go through and pick and choose which companies he's going to help, who's back he's going to scratch, and what are you going to do for me now? And that sounds right to me.

Sarah [00:23:17] Yeah. Because Ezra's been beating this drum, too. It's about tribute. And I looked at that list and I'm like, right, because he wants the whole world knocking at his door going, "We love you. We're so sorry we made you mad. What can we do to fix it? Please, please tell us what we can do to fixed it." He wants that sort of tribute. He wants the tribute. And I just think it is a fundamental miscalculation. I think what you see with Canada, no, we don't want to; we are done. We're not going to suck up to you. I think there was a little bit of that in the first term. You definitely heard that from China. We're going to hold our powder. We think it's going to go like the first time. But there's going to be an end of the road to that. And, honestly, I think there's going to be an end of road of that with the business community. I see his argument, but I think what you see particularly skipping ahead a bit with like the Wisconsin results, is people understand that there's money in politics but they don't like feeling like they're being bought and sold on a market. And I think that the effects of this, as everything gets more and more expensive, and they're looking at this guy who said he was going to make everything cheaper and now everything's more expensive, people are going to get mad. People are going to get really, really mad.

Beth [00:24:41] And a lot of his people are going to get mad. I was looking at the markets this morning and thinking about how I view this differently than I might have 10 years ago because of my age. Because as you get older and you start to look at your retirement, you don't have time to recover from these blips the way that you used to. How long is this going to go on? What is this actually going to mean? Your age is a huge factor in how you perceive that and what you're willing to tolerate. And I think that's why you see glimmers that the United States Senate, at least, is not interested in this continuing. We have bipartisan action this morning, Charles Grassley and Maria Cantwell putting forth a proposal to restrict the president's power here. To require the president to give Congress 48-hours’ notice before new tariffs because I think nobody enjoyed being surprised yesterday. And also to say that Congress has to approve the tariffs within 60 days or they expire. And that feels right to me. The president alone should not be able to reorder the economy like this.

Sarah [00:25:48] I would just like the Republicans in the house to maybe just meet me at the mic because I'd like to have a little come to Jesus with them. I keep thinking about what I said on the Tuesday show, that he's rich now. He's just rich. He just has a lot of money and he is no longer at risk for prosecution and he has no more elections to win. I do think by and large the third term stuff is just distraction. And I just want to say to these people, as you think about that, and you look at the results in Wisconsin and Florida through these special elections, understand that he has very little skin in the game. He is not thinking about you. He is thinking about the future of the Republican Party. I hate to be this dismissive, but I think he's just playing king. Because what else does he have to do? He's not protecting himself. He's trying to make more money-- I'm sure he's always trying to make more money, but you know what I mean?

[00:27:05] I think there was a real motivation in the first term, particularly by the end of the first time and most certainly in the last four to five years that like I could go broke or I could go to jail. Well, that's over. He's the big winner. He's been the big winner. He doesn't have to be the loser. He's the big winner. He's got money. He's going to jail. So his core motivations are sort of occupied. And so now we're just getting to see what happens when you give him a whiteboard. He goes after his enemies- not surprising. He's going to play with the economy because he thinks he's a genius CEO. But he doesn't care about how this affects you guys politically. Can anyone, literally anyone see that?

Beth [00:27:50] I think some senators can. I hope that the people in the House can. I was impressed that Rand Paul has been out there telling everyone who will listen that tariffs are bad policy. I'm impressed that Mitch McConnell and Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins voted with Rand Paul against tariffs on Canada. I'm impressed that Rand Paul is telling people, hey, more fentanyl goes from the United States into Canada than comes the other way. This is not about what they say, it's about open your eyes. I called Rand Paul and Mitch McConnell this morning, their offices, to say thank you for-- and look, that is a representative government function because Kentucky Bourbon is suffering right now. Kentucky Bourbon is suffering.

Sarah [00:28:35] Yeah, I have a friend who's building a new bourbon distillery and I'm terrified for her.

Beth [00:28:39] There is a fairly new bourbon company here who just did a mass round of layoffs. We are suffering in Kentucky because of this policy and that's what our senators are supposed to do. Susan Collins will tell you, she is worried about Canadian lumber and pulp because of companies in Maine. And that's the job. So I think there is a limit on how far they're going to let this go and I hope that we see it fast. I'm really encouraged that Charles Grassley is on this legislation with Maria Cantwell. Congress does need to step in here and exercise its power and tell him you're not the king. I understand that a lot of guard roles have come off for you and we took them down ourselves. It's time for us to build some of them back up.

Sarah [00:29:23] Because it's going to have to come from the Republican Party.

Beth [00:29:26] Yes.

Sarah [00:29:27] We've been listening to our 10 years of episodes in preparation for our big anniversary. And I just feel like what I bump into over and over again is the realization that this was up to the Republican party the whole time. His most successful venture, as Maggie Haberman says, has been the takeover of the Republican part. And I think the more political feedback they get-- although, it's been true. So I'm hoping it's the political feedback in combination with the reality that he's 78 and you don't honestly think-- or how long can you ride this horse? I know when he's at the top of the ticket, y'all ride high; but when he is not, you don't. So how long are you going to ride this horse? How long are you going to let people suffer? This is what the Yale Budget Lab says, $3,000 basically at $3800 every household- this is what it's going to cost them. I think that's probably a little generous depending on what you're talking about. In Kentucky, we're just allowing 15-year-olds to drive and get their permits. Whether or not that's good policy, I'm willing to debate, but there are going to be a lot of people trying to buy cars. There'll be a lot of people trying to buy cars. And so it's going to be so expensive and I just don't think he cares. I think the motivations are so shallow. And the sooner the Republican Party figures that out the better.

Beth [00:31:02] I think that the Republican party is-- your exactly right. They have been riding with him because they got something for it. I think it is going to become a liability. I think we're turning into that space.

Sarah [00:31:15] Well, Elon already is. We know that much.

Beth [00:31:16] Elon already is. This is the only relevance of the third term talk to me. The judiciary, which Republicans have made over for a generation.

Sarah [00:31:27] In their image. Yeah.

Beth [00:31:27] Those folks also want to have power. They want that to mean something. People have been riding with Trump to increase their own power, not to decrease it. And at some point, if he keeps taking and taking and taking, the bargain doesn't work anymore. And so him floating the third term, I think you're exactly right, is to distract from other negative things in the news cycle. But I also think it sends a message to judges that he is going to present crisis after crisis after crisis, and he is openly saying he just doesn't care what's constitutional. He just isn't care what's legal. And what I know about this Supreme Court in particular is that they intend to keep their power. So the more he pushes, the more pushback he's going to receive. I'm so impressed with the district judge in the Eric Adams case. If you haven't been following this, New York City Mayor Eric Adams gets indicted by the Justice Department for corruption. It's a pretty straightforward indictment. Whether the case would have been that way, I don't know.

[00:32:31] The Trump administration goes into court to dismiss that indictment. And they say in a very straightforward way in their filings, we need him to help us in our immigration efforts. And he can't do that if he's fighting this case. So we'd like to dismiss this, but with the possibility of refiling it. And the district judge in this case says, you can dismiss it, but then you dismiss it. Because what I see here is just quid pro quo. You want to hold this over his head. And that's what these tariffs are! You want to hold this over people's head as a lever to extract more and more and more from them. And this judge said, "I can't speak to whether Eric Adams is guilty or not. It's not my job here. My job is to protect the defendant in criminal proceedings. And so, yeah, you want to dismiss it, then we're dismissing it. But you can't bring it again." And I just think he's pushing on all of these people who are eventually going to say, "I have power here, too. You cannot take it all for yourself."

Sarah [00:33:28] Yeah, and I think the American people will say that, too.

Beth [00:33:31] I hope so.

Sarah [00:33:32] I take seriously the warnings about authoritarianism. Of course, I do. I see that Donald Trump doesn't like to be a loser. He doesn't to feel restricted. I think he has people around him that as judges continue to restrict their power, are less and less likely to just roll over. I take that seriously. I saw what happened on January 6th, I remember. And also, at the same time, I just put a lot of faith in the fact the American people are a bunch of ungovernable jerks at a lot of moments in history.

Beth [00:34:20] I like that about us, really.

Sarah [00:34:21] I really do, too. It is a blessing and a burden, but it is true. It is true, we don't like it. We don't like being told what to do. And I think there was so much of him. I told my husband this morning, I said, "Look, what I never took seriously enough is that he was an honest liar." Might be the wisest thing Dave Chappelle's ever said. He's an honest liar, but the rest of them just read as liars. Elon Musk just reads as a weird liar.

Beth [00:34:54] He's always going through some things. That's what Elon Musk reads to me. He's always going through things.

Sarah [00:34:57] JD Vance reads as an ambitious politician. So he's very special. He just is. And I don't see, especially in the face of him just following his id across the global economy to the real suffering of people up and down the income ladder, how people just don't go enough. Kristen Soltis Anderson has a piece in the New York Times today that she was like, do not underestimate people's anger. It is the most powerful force in American politics. And they have been living so high on the hog from that election victory. And it was a victory. There is no stasis in American politics, and I think this week shows it better than most. So let's talk about what else happened this week up next. So the other big thing that was happening with Liberation Day is we're still waiting on a ruling from the Senate parliamentarian on whether United States Senate Republicans can say that extending Donald Trump's 2017 tax cuts adds to the deficit. Their argument is, no, we're just keeping things the same. It doesn't add to the default. Which if you think about it for five and a half seconds, makes absolutely no sense because this is money coming in and going out, and that continues to change every year.

[00:36:48] We don't just go, well, it starts at zero every year, and so if we don't change everything, it stays at zero. Such a weird mathematical argument. And so in order to try to end run about what they feel like is most likely to be a bad ruling from the Senate parliamentarian, they're going nuclear. They're going to say, well, we'll just let the budget committee decide. They're the ones who ultimately get to decide, not the parliamentarian. Even though that is not the process and never has been the process. And so they're basically trying to end run around her. The Democrats think, well, then we'll just get a ruling on whether they have the ability to use that as the policy baseline. She'll say no, and then they're really going to be at an impasse because the debt ceiling got to be resolved via reconciliation soon. Scott Bessent, the treasurer secretary came out and said we're going to fail to meet our payment obligations maybe as soon as May or June. So they have a ticking clock. Meanwhile, Mike Johnson's over in the house just shutting things down because he doesn't want people to vote via proxy when they have new babies. So he's going nuclear over there, they're just tempting to go nuclear over in the Senate. It's getting wild out there.

Beth [00:38:01] And if you are listening to all the parliamentary procedure side of this and thinking, what are we even talking about? The point is Senate Republicans want to be able to do whatever they want to do with a simple majority. This is just about the filibuster. It is kind of silly for the parliamentarian to be deciding what gets lumped into certain calculations and does this actually move the debt or not? That is all kind of a silly. It's there because of the filibuster. Do we want the Senate to have to vote on a simple majority basis, or do we want Senate to only be able to pass things with 60 votes? That's what this is about. And the answer from all sides is always depends. Depends on what it is. And I just think we need to be done with this. Honestly, it doesn't bother me if they just decide like, okay, the filibuster is gone. That's true on a week when we have good filibuster news.

Sarah [00:39:00] Yeah, I think it is important and powerful that Cory Booker filibustered for 25 hours and 4 minutes, overcoming Strom Thurmond's record when he filibustered to prevent the Civil Rights Act. I think that's fabulous. I love Cory Bookers. I think what he did was important. I thought when he did it was strategic and impactful. And also I hate the filibusters. Get rid of it.

Beth [00:39:27] Here's what I would like to say about Senator Booker, who I have always liked, who I would have voted for had he made it to my primary ballot when he ran for president. I have also liked Cory Booke even though he is farther to the left on many topics than I am, I just trust him as a human being. I think he sees a vacuum and is trying to step into the vacuum. I think it is a good thing for someone to show that you can make news doing something positive. Because even when Cory Booker is going negative, which he did, he spent 25 hours talking about how dangerous Donald Trump is, but he intersperses that with calls to improve the human spirit, that America is a great country that can be greater; that America, despite all of its faults, continues to move forward. I just think it's good that he does good and gets attention and shows a model for doing good.

[00:40:23] And I also think that people want to see some stamina and some fight and some fire from people. There's been all this discussion going back to 2015 about how Donald Trump is able to just speak extemporaneously for hours and hours and isn't that wonderful. And I think what you see with Cory Booker is Democrats should do more of that. This was a physical feat that is unnecessary and it's horrible that we have these roles that you can't use the bathroom. It's ridiculous. It's ridiculous that he had to do this, but also puts to bed the idea that all Democrats are wimps who can't handle anything and Donald Trump's the only person with the stamina to speak for a while. And he said good things. When he was a little bit unleashed and a little tired and a bit dehydrated, he still says things that are coherent and wise and inspiring. And so, to me, this is step one in a long process of changing the democratic brand. And if Cory Booker is the person who's got a whiteboard in his office on how to do that, that makes me very excited.

Sarah [00:41:30] Well, and let me just say, let's think about how all this took place. This was the same week that up in Wisconsin, under the brilliant strategy of the Wisconsin Democratic Party and Ben Wickler, said, we're not going to talk about Donald Trump at all. We're going to zero in on Elon Musk's role in this special election to elect a member of our Supreme Court. Wisconsin's not for sale. So they didn't talk about Trump at All. They zeroed in on Ellon Musk. Meanwhile, Cory Booker's over there on the Senate floor talking about nothing but Donald Trump for 25 hours. Meanwhile, last week, AOC and Bernie were out in Denver fighting the oligarchy, doing their thing at a rally. He's going to take all kinds. And we got a lot of primaries. We got a a lot primary announcement. The videos are starting to flow of people saying, "This is what I see." People primarying Democrats. People getting ready for a big democratic fight in Michigan. Cool, great, let's do it. Let's throw some shit at the wall and see what sticks. Sounds great to me. Love it.

Beth [00:42:36] Yeah, I agree. I think this is just a really nice indicator that Cory Booker wants to be in that fight. He is ready to go for leadership of this party, and I'm here for that.

Sarah [00:42:47] I hope he signs Senate Democratic at leadership. I think he'd be a great leader of the Senate Democrats. I really do. Maybe he's thinking about president again, but I think that would also be a really good role for him. Because we need that, too. We're going to need the next Nancy Pelosi as much as we're going to the next Barack Obama. It's going to take all kinds because it's a big complicated role to govern as a party. And to think about where people are and what are they listening to and talking about people who are low propensity voters in the middle, and talking about to the party faithful who are 10 kinds of furious. It's just going to take everything.

[00:43:25] But I think the hopeful part is what's happening on the Republican Party is nobody's talking to anybody but Donald Trump. That's why Laura Loomer just showed up in the White House and talked him into firing like half the national security team. Because again, that's what it took. You can't listen to the voters. You can listen to media coverage. The only way to get anything done is to go pay tribute and convince him to be the last person in his ear. And so Laura Loomer gets up there and she's the one who convinces them, not even because they deserve some responsibility for this massive screw up, but because she believes some sort of conspiracy theories. I don't even know. Who knows what's going on in Laura Loomers head? I shouldn't know nor care.

Beth [00:44:08] Well, this buttoned up tighter ship is starting to fall apart. I think you're right that the tariffs--

Sarah [00:44:14] Yeah, where's Susie Wiles at? Where you at, girl?

Beth [00:44:14] The tariffs feel like part of that. As you said, the Laura Loomer thing feels like part of that. The reporting that there were numerous signal chats on national security matters, that Mike Walz is using Gmail for national security issues. We're starting to see that maybe we had lipstick on a pig here.

Sarah [00:44:37] No, totally. And so the problem is he is just as erratic when backed in a corner as he is when riding high. That's the problem.

Beth [00:44:49] We just are who we are.

Sarah [00:44:50] We just are who we are. And that's what I'm concerned about. And so that's why it's going to take all kinds because there's going to be a lot of battles to fight as this plays out. And it's going to take a lot of different warriors and a lot of different skills to deal with that. All right. Well, next up, we're going to talk about what's on our mind Outside of Politics. Okay, this is adjacent because there was a moment during the Liberation Day speech that we could not let go.

Clip: Trump [00:45:27] Likewise, an old-fashioned term that we use groceries. I used it in the campaign. It's such an old fashioned term, but a beautiful term. Groceries. It sort of says a bag with different things in it. Groceries went through the roof and I campaigned on that I talked about the word groceries a lot.

Sarah [00:45:44] And it was, one, hilarious. Two, ridiculous. Three, relevant. Because Chad had suggested that we do some like little produce wars in the grocery store aisle. Talk about which was better. Blueberries or apples or baby carrots or whole carrots, whatever the case may be when Donald Trump gifted us this meme. Old-fashioned. It's just a bag with things in it.

Beth [00:46:13] I have a request. Could we get like ProPublica or someone on this? I want to know when was the last time that Donald Trump made himself a sandwich? I just want to know.

Sarah [00:46:24] Never, Beth. I would bet you a lot of money that he has probably never been to the grocery store.

Beth [00:46:32] I want a deeply reported piece about that.

Sarah [00:46:35] I doubt he's ever been.

Beth [00:46:36] The idea that groceries are quaint. This is the only clip of him that I've wanted to hear multiple times. I can't get enough of it. I've listened over and over again because the charming old-fashioned groceries, things in a bag, illustrates better than anything I can think of that this is not a man of the people. This is not person with life experience that is relevant.

Sarah [00:47:00] Now, I probably should, in the spirit of authenticity and transparency, reveal that I also do not go to the grocery store very often- maybe once a month.

Beth [00:47:12] Do you think groceries are quaint? Do you use the word groceries regularly? Do you occasionally get something for yourself out of the kitchen?

Sarah [00:47:21] I do. I'm just saying I might not be very invested in these produce wars. Well, that's not true because I have a lot of feelings about food, which is really what we're talking about, not groceries. You don't want to send me to the grocery store because I'm going to follow my bliss. I don't care about your list. I want the newest snacks. I want what sounds good. I don' care. Nicholas hates it when I go to the grocery store.

Beth [00:47:46] When I go, Chad refers to it as the Beth tax. Because even if I stick to the list, I'm probably going to pick out like a nice piece of cheese or something that just tickled my fancy that particular day.

Sarah [00:47:57] And I think about that's why Donald Trump eats hot dogs and boring, boring food because there's probably been no moment in his life where he can't follow his bliss. I don't think he knows what his bliss is. I don't know if it's because I've given up sweet treats for Lent, but every time I sit down to eat I'm just like I love eating. I think I have really the pleasure of the eating the meals because the pleasure is not being focused on what comes after the meal. But I'm like, man, I love this. I love food so, so much. And when I think about people who do not get that at the grocery store or anywhere else-- like that crazy story from Gavin Newsom's podcast where what's his name was like "I was on Air Force One and he had two hot dogs and he gave me one and it wasn't that sweet." I was like, no, it wasn't. And also he eats two hotdogs, plain hotdogs for lunch? That's the saddest thing I've ever heard in my life.

Beth [00:49:03] When someone is standing ready to prepare him for anything he wants. That's what gets me. This Sunday I did like prepare for the week in the kitchen. I chopped up the produce. I planned my meals so that the components were ready. I just have to put them in the oven, which is not something I usually do. And I need to do it more often because this week every time I've eaten, I've thought, "Sunday, Beth, I love you. Thank you for doing this for me, Sunday Beth. You made making this salad for lunch so easy. Thank you." I can't fathom what it would be like to have outsourced that entire responsibility from my whole family where all of us at any moment can say, "I feel like this." And someone goes, "I got you." I just can't fathom it.

Sarah [00:49:53] Because the friction is what creates the pleasure to a certain extent. And the specialness of it. Let's tackle the produce wars quickly.

Beth [00:50:11] Okay.

Sarah [00:50:11] My personal opinion is the best fruit in the produce department is a plum. I really love a plum. Let me tell you why. This is where my childhood in California probably really shines through, because I don't sound-- I think most Southerners like strawberries, watermelon. And I do love a strawberry and I did love a watermelon, but I know people think I'm hard on California but I do consider myself like 25% Californian. I do love the state quite a bit and I spent every childhood summer in California visiting my dad. And the stone fruit situation there, the apricots, the plums, the whatever they call it when they put them together, top-notch. And it's so good when you bite into it. It's so juicy and it's so good and I just mmm! And also, I don't think plums can get lame on the scale strawberries can. I've never had a plum even out of season that I'm like, what was that? But strawberries, the spectrum of how bad they can get out of the season, it's big. It's a big spectrum. You know what I'm saying?

Beth [00:51:17] Yeah, I don't think I could name the superior fruit for all time because I love watermelon. I love it. It's probably my favorite food, but it's got to be summer watermelon because other time watermelon is just not good. And watermelon can be really, really bad too.

Sarah [00:51:31] But you know what else you can keep every other melon. I don't want your honey dew, and I want your cantaloupe. I think they're gross. That's why they put them in the crappy side fruits salad all the time because they're not good. Nobody wants them

Beth [00:51:42] I like them. I love a cantaloupe. I love a really, really good cantaloupe. I love it. I love plums as well. Always beautiful on the plate, too. Plums are lovely to look at in any dish.

Sarah [00:51:52] Do you know what I had for the first time ever? Plum pie. Have you ever had plum pie.

Beth [00:51:56] I've made a plum pie and it was delicious.

Sarah [00:51:58] They're delicious!

Beth [00:51:59] Yes. They're so good. There's a little tartness too, which is nice.

Sarah [00:52:02] How do you get to 43 without having plum pie?

Beth [00:52:04] I don't know. I think in the winter there is nothing better than an orange. I love an orange in the Winter.

Sarah [00:52:13] It's such a complicated journey. It really is. I don't know what's happening with oranges. I know most of them are not being grown in Florida anymore. I know that much. The drop in what's being grown in Florida citrus wise is like dramatic. I feel like we've manufactured the cutie to be the answer to all our citrus needs.

Beth [00:52:38] I want a real orange.

Sarah [00:52:40] Well, and I don't hate a cutie, but I do think we've taken it too far. But real oranges sometimes the peel is like out of control. And I think it's because I want to eat them like a cutie but you really don't want to eat a real orange like you eat a cutie. You don't want to peel it that way. You want to slice it. I'm coming around to that. I think we're on a complicated journey just production, genetic, manipulation-wise with the orange. I think we are. I would like us to go back to a grapefruit and a grapefruits spoon. Who doesn't want a special cutlery for the fruit?

Beth [00:53:15] Well, I do like special cutlery. That's part of why I love corn. There are so many special things to help you eat corn. I think corn is delicious. But I want to say about the orange. I'm willing to tolerate the difficulty of the peel for a really good orange because that burst of juiciness and brightness with a delicious orange, what's better than that? I can't think of anything.

Sarah [00:53:35] But sometimes I think that a freshly squeezed orange juice is superior to an actual orange.

Beth [00:53:41] No, I want to chew the orange. I like an orange juice, but I want to chew the orange.

Sarah [00:53:44] I don't know about that.

Beth [00:53:46] It's such an interesting texture. I really like it.

Sarah [00:53:49] I think the mouth situation is always so top of mind with the fruit. That's why I don't really like raspberries. There’re just too many seeds.

Beth [00:53:59] It's a lot of seeds. Blackberries too I love the taste, but there's a lot of seeds.

Sarah [00:54:01] That's why blueberry I'm on board with.

Beth [00:54:03] I agree. I think the blueberry is the superior berry.

Sarah [00:54:06] Now, I do have a fun thing with a fruit, too. I get geographic tongue from pineapple. Have you ever seen this?

Beth [00:54:12] No.

Sarah [00:54:13] It's wild. So if I eat pineapple, it makes my mouth sting a little bit and my tongue starts to look like the globe. Like my taste buds-- I don't know what the biology is happening.

Beth [00:54:26] Is it like swelling?

Sarah [00:54:28] I don' think so. I don't know. I'm sure someone will explain it to us in the comments, but it looks like a map all of a sudden on my tongue. It's weird.

Beth [00:54:37] That's fascinating.

Sarah [00:54:37] It's called geographic tongue and pineapple does it, too. It's a shame because I really do like pineapple, but I pretty much don't eat it.

Beth [00:54:44] I definitely want to know more about that.

Sarah [00:54:45] If you like citrus, we had this last night, may I recommend a Mexican citrus salad to you? So good. I don't know what he puts, it's like cilantro and there's a spicy seasoning that he puts in it but he puts like all these citruses and pineapple and he mixed them all together, like some grapefruit, some orange. Last time he put a raspberry orange in it, which is a thing that I didn't know existed. Such a delicious way to eat citrus. I highly recommend. I'll get Nicholas's recipe and put it in the show notes.

Beth [00:55:16] Sounds good. Sounds refreshing. Do you have a favorite vegetable? I don't want to leave the vegetables behind.

Sarah [00:55:19] I don' know. Should we leave the vegetable for a whole other show? That's a lot of vegetables.

Beth [00:55:23] Okay, we'll do that. We'll see how popular this segment was and then maybe come back to [crosstalk].

Sarah [00:55:27] I'm just saying, we can't do them both. Listen, I'm going to call out my sister-in-law on the internet right now, because she's like, "I don't like fruit." I'm like, "That's outrageous." It's a huge category. We barely touched it. We touched the mainstream American fruits. Do you know how many fruits there are? Do you how many different ways there are to prepare fruit? I don' like cantaloupe or honeydew, but I'm sure there's some sort of like-- I'll give you a perfect example. Japan makes all kinds of like melon pastries. Guess what? Love them. You know what I mean? It's a universe of possibility out there, man.

Beth [00:56:03] You grill a peach, life-changing. You poach a pear, the best thing ever.

Sarah [00:56:08] Yes. And the apples. Look, we didn't even talk about apples because the apple is a whole segment into itself.

Beth [00:56:16] It's true. What a rich text Chad has given us. Thank you, Chad.

Sarah [00:56:17] We can't do vegetables. That's outrageous. I think we'd probably have to do potatoes, corn, and then everybody else. And that's probably still pushing it.

Beth [00:56:25] I got a whole show on corn in me.

Sarah [00:56:27] I know you do. You've really brought me around on corn. I used to think it was lame, but you've really changed my mind. And the signs were there because I hate flour tortillas, but I love a corn tortilla. So the signs where there that I could have given corn another chance.

Beth [00:56:43] You talk about versatility. Corn is your pinch hitter.

Sarah [00:56:46] I know. It's so true. Well, I can't wait because honeydew people are going to come for me in the comments. It's fine. I feel strong in this take, so I'm ready for it.

Beth [00:56:56] I just wonder, have you had a really good, bright honeydew- not just the salad bar filler?

Sarah [00:57:01] Yes, of course I have. Yes, and they're fine. I just think that cantaloupe and honeydew always taste like a little sour-- not bitter, just like bad.

Beth [00:57:14] Have you ever put salt on them?

Sarah [00:57:16] My mom's salts her watermelon. Yes, and it's still not that great.

Beth [00:57:20] I think you should try salting and peppering your cantaloupe. This is what my grandmother did.

Sarah [00:57:24] Pepper too?

Beth [00:57:24] Yes.

Sarah [00:57:26] No, you're just talking crazy.

Beth [00:57:28] Listen, I'm just trying to open your mind. I want you to have that I love this eating experience with the melons because I think it's there for you.

Sarah [00:57:36] Usually just what I do is when I get one of those fruit salads, I just very carefully proportion the good fruit so I have a good fruit in every bite of the bad melon. I don't leave them unattended.

Beth [00:57:49] Also, listen, if you have any fruit that is underwhelming, you squeeze some lime juice and put some mint on it, and then you got it, then you're good.

Sarah [00:57:59] I do feel sorry for people who can't like-- the cilantro tastes like soap. What a tragedy.

Beth [00:58:04] I know. Cilantro are so delicious.

Sarah [00:58:04] What a personal tragedy for you. I am sorry. That should be the first thing they use with CRISPR, is to alter the gene that makes cilantro taste like soap.

Beth [00:58:12] When we return to produce, we do need an herb day, too. Because you add some mint leaves to any fruit and it's better. It's just delicious.

Sarah [00:58:19] Did you know that they're using rosemary and thyme to treat dementia?

Beth [00:58:24] I'm here for that.

Sarah [00:58:26] Yeah, because they have this super anti-inflammatory property that they are trying to keep stable. But it goes to show you.

Beth [00:58:32] There's a bit of witchiness in me that does believe that herbs can do just about anything if we deploy them correctly.

Sarah [00:58:37] Yeah, for sure.

Beth [00:58:37] Not like your cancer. I'm not that witchy. Please use all the medicine that's available to you, but also I just think herbs are underappreciated.

Sarah [00:58:47] I agree with you. Okay, that was wide ranging, characteristically. Thank you for joining us. Send me all your comments about honeydew. I'm up for it. I'm strong. I'm tough. I can take it. Don't forget tickets for our 10th birthday party sponsored by Substack. And the after party go on sale on Monday, the seventh, for premium members and on Wednesday, the ninth, for everyone. I will be gone next week for spring break. Beth will be holding down the fort. I hope everybody has the best weekend and spring break available to you. And Beth will be back in your ears on Tuesday.