Talking Kids' Vaccines with a Pediatrician

Topics Discussed

• Book Banning in Schools

• Vaccinating Children (with Dr. Amanda Dropic)

• Outside of Politics: The Eternals and Dune

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Episode Resources

• Spotsylvania School Board orders libraries to remove 'sexually explicit' books (The Free Lance-Star)

• The Chris Pratt Backlash Was Always Coming (Buzzfeed)

Transcript

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:00:00] The biggest question I feel like people ask is, are kids really affected by COVID? Do my kids, my kid really even need this vaccine because are kids really even affected by COVID? And I think looking at the last year and a half, I think the answer kind of unequivocally is yes. The problem is, looking at the numbers, it's probably about 90 percent that they're going to be fine, but the other 10 percent will get long haul COVID or MIS-C after COVID or be hospitalized or even die from it. 

Sarah [00:00:39] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:41] And the Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:43] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. 

Beth [00:00:58] Hello, thank you so much for joining us today. We are excited to spend some time with you thinking mostly about kids today. We're going to start with a conversation about book bannings and schools across the country. We are going to then talk about the decision to vaccinate children in that five to 11 category. We brought in an expert, Dr. Amanda Dropic. She's a pediatrician. She put her own children in the Pfizer vaccine trial. So she's going to talk to us about why she felt comfortable doing that, what that experience has been like and her assessment of the safety of vaccinations that are available right now. And then outside of politics, we're going to talk about The Eternals and Dune, just dive right into the sci-fi genre. 

[00:01:39] Before we get started, if you find today's episode valuable after you listen, it would mean a lot to us if you shared it with your people. We know that many families are struggling through conversations about vaccines for that five to 11 group, for example, and we really think this conversation with Dr. Dropic is going to be helpful. So we just love and appreciate every time you share on social media, when you talk about it with people in your lives. Apple podcast now has that amazing feature where if you text the episode to someone, it will appear in their Listen Now tab because you've shared it. So we hope you'll take advantage of that and thank you so much for that support. 

[00:02:23] Sara, for the Nightly Nuance this week, I looked at what was happening in Spotsylvania Virginia, and the short version of that story is that two parents showed up angry at a school board meeting about books in their high school son's library. And they got themselves and the board so riled up that without any discussion or a proper agenda item or real investigation and opportunity to talk with, I don't know the school librarians involved. The board unanimously voted to rid the school libraries of sexually explicit content. And this conversation involved two board members endorsing the idea of burning books. One of them later walked that comment back, and it all got walked back because then the community showed up and said quite loudly, This is not who we want to be. We cannot be talking about banning books in America in 2021. And also, we already have a process for parents to complain if they don't like books their kids are reading at school. Use the process, but we should not go on this massive purging endeavor. But lots of people, especially who work in schools and who are librarians, have reached out to tell us that this is of concern to them, that it is a growing concern to them. And you've looked at a situation in Texas that involves this issue as well. 

Sarah [00:03:45] Yeah, there's a state rep there whose just so happens like just totally coincidentally happens to be running for state attorney general. And he put forward a list of like 850 books that he wants, that he's going to launch an investigation for. It seems mostly like a campaign technique, but there's reports from the American Library Association that book banning and local school boards, investigating books or removing books from the library is at an all time high. There was a really great Time Magazine article we'll link to in the show notes where the head of the L.A was like, I've never seen it this high. And another expert on on book bannng says it just reflects the anxiety of society. So these the books being banned often are about race. Not surprising considering the fevered pitch of conversation about critical race theory. They often involve narratives revolving around like nonbinary people or transgender people. And so the list is not surprising. I think what is concerning is that, you know, you have Glenn Youngkin being like, education's the best. It used to be nine. Now it's our thing. So now that people have figured out and by people, I mean Republicans that, oh, well, this is a hot issue. This is of concern. People have anxiety about this. This is going to be a good campaign issue. Unfortunately, I think we'll see more conversations around book banning.

Beth [00:05:07] I used to be a Republican, and this is a topic that makes me feel like I was kind of taken for a ride. It's one of many topics that I feel that way about, but I feel particularly duped. I think when we have conversations like this because my understanding of being a Republican meant that we are in our families responsible for how we discuss the world and how we form values around the world and how we express those values. And so I fully support policies that enable families to show up at schools and say, I have concerns about this particular book for my student. Let's work through those concerns about my student. I do not understand parents showing up at a school board meeting and saying because of the values that we have in my family, I object to these books for all students that these books should not exist in the imaginations of all students because of what we think in our house. Yeah, that crosses such a big line to me and is the opposite of what I believed conservatism was about. It's really hard to take in. And the other piece that I bring to this and I say this a lot when we're out on college campuses talking with students or when we're at community engagements, I just don't want to be afraid of an idea like I don't want to be afraid of a book, no matter what's in the book. And as a parent, I want whatever's in the book to be something that my kids talk to me about and that we sort through, and that it's an opportunity for all of us to learn, even if what we're learning is we super don't agree with this book. This book is not where we are. I want to have that conversation. I don't understand wanting to actually remove from the shelf anything that is challenging or uncomfortable or even that's hostile to where I am. 

Sarah [00:06:57] Yeah, that's what's so frustrating to me. It's not like these books are being required or required reading. They literally just like search the library and said, Ooh, I don't like the I don't like the summary analysis of this, but get it out of here. I can't fathom that mindset. You know, I'm real. I'm real loosey goosey about books as a parent. There is. There is very little that I would tell my son, even my 12 year old, you cannot read that I was reading adult books in high school. I think it's like one of the best ways to let your kids sort of explore some tough adult topics. Remember when Go Ask Alice, everybody was reading Go Ask Alice, ooh, I still remember reading that book because to me, it's it's one of the safest ways right to sort of broach these topics or to let them to explore adult topics. And I mean, if I'm I'm giving all the grace in the world, I do understand that on the other side of the aisle, there is the sense that we're already outnumbered. The culture is already going in a direction that we do not like that is either opposed to our family values or our religious values. I imagine it feels much like the way I talk about advertising, right when I talk about like, I love that moment in super size me, where he says, if you sat down with your kids at every meal and talked about nutrition, you'd still be 50000 messages or whatever behind McDonald's. And I know they feel that way. I know they feel like we have to fight it in music, we have to fight it in movies, we have to fight it in TV and advertising. We should not have to fight it at school, especially even though that's not the case here with required reading. But to me, it's like you're not because they're trying to just remove them from the shelves completely like no access, there's just a part of me that wants to think like I can get there. I can empathize with how you feel overwhelmed, even though I vehemently disagree with you. But like, do you really think pulling material off a high school library bookshelf is going to keep that away? Don't you really think it's just going to, oh, I don't know, flag interesting material for your kids that might be interested in rebelling? But I think the truth is like, there's no rational basis for this with regards to access, right? Like, it's really not about access, it's about taking a public stand. It's about asserting your values in a public way, feeling like you're pushing back against all the other public ways your kids take in values you're opposed to. And this is your chance to assert in a public way what you're opposed to. 

Beth [00:09:34] It's kind of another way, though, that that symbolic stance. Which sounds fine, right, it sounds like that's part of living in a democracy really shifts the burden to other people who have fewer advantages in life. So I'm thinking about the fact that I went to a school board meeting after our school board had seemed to kind of cave to pressure in the community not to have a mask mandate for this school year. At the next board meeting, the community comes out, and all of the people who are not culture warriors spoke out about the importance of having kids mask until a vaccine was available. And all of those folks at previous meetings who had held the microphone talking about liberty and freedom caused people who have had children die to have to show up at a school board meeting and recount that experience. And people who had children who were struggling with long haul COVID symptoms start to show up at a school board meeting and recount those experiences. And we're seeing that around books now because. Mr. and Mrs. So-and-so who show up very upset about what their son might be exposed to from these books and to your point, as though those books are his first exposure to any of these ideas. But putting that aside, they're upset about what he was exposed to causes librarians, students, parents, community members to have to show up and recount the situation where a book saved someone's life because the book affirmed something for them that had not been affirmed before, or the book spoke to a painful experience that they needed someone to speak into and at the local level, I fully understand that people have discomfort about some of what is taught in schools, and I think there are plenty of forums where we can and should discuss that. But I would like us to discuss that with some conscientiousness for how we shift that burden. Like, I don't think somebody who has been struggling with suicidal thoughts should have to say that in a school board meeting to convince everybody that a book is appropriate content to keep on the shelf. You know what I mean? 

Sarah [00:11:57] Yeah, I think symbolic stances create tunnel vision. You're only thinking about how they impact you and your child, and you're not thinking about what's the impact on vulnerable teenagers. Of different identities than mine. When I stand up and say this is offensive to me, who you are is offensive to me, having merely a book written about your life experience is offensive to me. You know, I'm glad that they rolled this back, but the impact is the same every time we have this conversation. Its the impact. It's another drop in the bucket of how you are is wrong. What's your life experience is is wrong, and that has impact and you know what? Well, it's frustrating to me, as I'm reading all these stories at the same time. I'm getting text messages from my friend in a neighboring school district that their high school is like in crisis mode over Yik Yak. The stupid app they brought back even though we took it away because it's a terrible idea to be able to allow people to post anonymously on a board in a five mile radius. Oh man, what could possibly go wrong? And you know, some of the same people who would be offended by these books will defend their kids rights to post nasty, terrible things on these message boards. There is a Venn diagram here. I am confident there is an overlap of like protect my child, but also my child can do whatever they want. It's just so frustrating. It's just so frustrating. It's hard not to get in a like. Humanity is the worst, and I try not to be like that, especially with teenagers, and truly, I'm not mad at the teenagers because teenagers can't process actions and consequences. I won't get on my soapbox again about how teenagers aren't grown, but like their parents are. And there just seems to be this privileged partnered with defensiveness, this like just overall attitude of entitlement that I am entitled to never be uncomfortable. And also, if I make other people uncomfortable, too bad. 

Beth [00:14:14] One of the school board members from Spotsylvania who suggested that books be burned and then walked that back said, Look, I just think that any book with sexually explicit content ought to be donated to community libraries and schools should stick to the basics. Schools should stick to math and science and history. And I think it is important to explore that for a few minutes in our conversations that we have with people in our lives. Because you hear a ton of that when you start talking about things like diversity, equity, inclusion. I just think schools should stick to the basics. 

Sarah [00:14:55] While they're battling devious licks, toilets being removed, and social media apps that require bullying and sexual harassment and sexual assault. But yeah, just stick to the basics. It's fine. 

Beth [00:15:06] Well, this is the thing like some of these books that people find so very offensive are books that contain the life experience of students who are experiencing homelessness or students who have parents who are suffering from addiction, or students who are being sexually abused. Like we don't want any of that to be the reality, but wishing it weren't the reality doesn't make it so. What schools have to do to be able to keep students safe and able to be educated, not only educated but able to be educated necessarily touches on things outside of whatever you deem the basics of American education to look like. And also, we have public education in this country not to make sure everybody gets certain algebra skills. We have it to develop an informed citizenry to continue to care for our democracy. It is a bigger scope than what people say when they say schools, what people mean. I think when they say schools should stick to the basics. 

[00:16:16] Do I think that in some school systems, probably some of these issues are being pressed in a way that feels wrong to me? Maybe. But again, there are mechanisms to have those conversations at the local level nationalizing this to the point of people being empowered to walk into school board meetings and demand that books be banned. That is a bad road for all of us. We are curious about your thoughts on this topic. As always, you can send us an email at. Hello@PantsuitPoliticsShow.Com or comment on social media. We appreciate everyone's engagement in these difficult discussions. And up next, we're just going to move right into another difficult discussion and talk about kids and vaccines with Dr. Amanda Dropic. 

Beth [00:17:15] Dr. Dropic earned her undergraduate degree from the University of Kentucky and attended medical school at the University of Louisville. She works at Primary Pediatrics of Kentucky in Florence, Kentucky, and we found her to be so helpful in a conversation about kids and vaccines. Dr. Dropic, thank you so much for spending time with us when I know you and every pediatrician across the country is very, very busy. We wanted to spend some time with you as vaccinations are available for the five to 11 category because we know that we have listeners who have done a lot of thinking about vaccines for themselves and maybe for their older children, but are finding that either they or someone in their house, dads, have a different level of comfort about the five to 11 set. And so we'd love to just start by hearing what are the questions that are making their way into your office? And what would you tell parents who are feeling hesitant in a way maybe they didn't for themselves about the vaccine? 

Sarah [00:18:16] I also want to know how many vaccines you've given since, what, Saturday? 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:18:20] So we're a smaller practice, so we've given probably 200 vaccines, not many as some of the bigger practices, just because of staffing. Just hard to get an extra nurse here to do the vaccines. And again, it's been it's it's nice to be able to offer it at our practice just because we do have some of those kids who are scared and we know we, my my nurses know how to give shots. They know how to handle needle phobia. It's nicer than being able to go to Walgreens or Kroger, although they have the same vaccine there. But again, if you've got a kid who is nervous or scared, it's nice to be able to go to your pediatrician. The biggest question I feel like people ask is. Are kids really affected by COVID? You know, do my kids, my kid, really even need this vaccine because are kids really even affected by COVID? And I think looking at the last year and a half, I think the answer kind of unequivocally is yes, and you'll get people who will go, Oh, but for kids, the it's ninety nine point five percent that you know your kid's not going to die or be hospitalized with it. And the problem is is looking at the numbers, it's probably about probably a little bit about 90 percent that there are going to be fine, but the other 10 percent will get long haul COVID or MIS-C after COVID or be hospitalized or even die from it. And if your kid is one of those 10 percent, what do you say to yourself? Because that's what we get. A lot of parents who come in who go, Oh gosh, you know? They've got COVID. What do you do? And there is nothing to do for kids, unfortunately, there is no monoclonal antibody. 

Sarah [00:19:58] Oh wow. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:19:59] You know, unless they're high risk. And even then, it's not really approved under 12 right now. 

Sarah [00:20:05] So and I'm assuming same for the viral pill. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:20:07] Yes, there's yeah, there is. There is there is no treatment for COVID right now for four children. You know, if they get hospitalized, they'll try steroids. You know, obviously oxygen and vent if they need it. But do you really want your kid being in that situation where you go, Oh gosh, there was something I could have done to prevent this, and I didn't. Looking at the safety and efficacy of the vaccine, it works well and it's very safe. And if you actually look at the numbers, the funniest thing to me was there were five serious adverse events. None of them had anything to do with the actual vaccine. One was a kid who swallowed a penny because, you know, they're five-year-olds. And that's what they do. 

Sarah [00:20:50] What is that? How did that get registered as an adverse event? 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:20:53] They have to register everything. 

Sarah [00:20:54] Oh, just because it happened after the vax. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:20:57] So literally so people don't really understand. This is this is a two year study. So when I enrolled my kids, we still every week have to register any symptoms. So every week we have to log in and say, Yep, we're having no symptoms, everything's fine. Or if they have a fever or congestion, cough or anything like that, we have to swab them and send a swab down. So these are actually two-year studies that they're followed for. So yesterday they registered everything. So three kids broke bones again because they're five to 11 year olds in the summer right there outside. So you have to register everything. So. 

[00:21:30] But looking at the actual side effects from the vaccine, about 40 percent of kids will get fatigue. About a quarter of them will get a headache. My youngest had a fever. She was eight, and she said she had a fever for a day, but no long-term serious side effects. And I think that's what if you look, if you know anything about mRNA vaccines, they're not in your body along the way that the body breaks them down. There are there is no potential for long-term side effects. That's the biggest. Another big question Oh, what's going to happen in a couple of years? Nothing. First of all, right? Like, it's one of those like, that's not how science works. And. Again, what's going to happen if your kid gets COVID in the meantime and you could have prevented it? That's the biggest thing. And I think for for a lot of people, getting the vaccine is active, right? Like you have to go get the vaccine. So you have to choose. That's a choice that you make to go get it. Not getting the vaccine. And kind of let's see what happens if we get COVID. That's a passive choice. You don't have to do anything there. So there's no work required. But then when you get COVID, a lot of people do fine with it. But if you're one of the people who end up not doing fine with it, and it could have been prevented, that's what's kind of horrible. And you see those stories all the time about pregnant women who didn't get the vaccine and die, or moms who or dads who didn't get the vaccine and leave behind four children. Both parents die. Read their stories and you go, Gosh, that could have been preventable. 

Sarah [00:23:05] You mentioned this in passing, but your ears have probably been burned. I've been talking about you ever since our mutual friend Holly spoke of her pediatrician that signed all four of her kids up for the vaccine trial. I've used you so many times in conversations on like my friend's pediatrician, pediatrician. This is her expertise and she's had her four children up for the trial. Just think about how comfortable she must be with both the efficacy and the safety of this vaccine as she signed her children up for the trial. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:23:32] Right. So I've been following the Pfizer adult data for a while, and then when they were enrolling for the 12 to 15 year olds, I asked my children who were 15 and 13 if they wanted to. I said, You know, this has come out. Are you guys interested? Do you want to? Here it's run by Cincinnati Children's. And thinking about it, children's hospitals really are working to keep kids healthy. Now financially, it actually makes more sense for them not to develop a vaccine for kids to get sick and be hospitalized and they make more money. But you know, as pediatricians, we want to keep kids healthy. We want to keep them safe. So I talked to those two my oldest two about it, and they said they want to do it. So for them, it was a vaccine versus placebo. So they got theirs in December. They got two shots in December, had no side effects. I just I knew they had placebo because again, not a single side effect. So then when my 15 year old turned 16, he got unblinded and it turned out he got placebo and right on that same around the same time, they had called me and said, I know you have two younger siblings or two younger kids. They were eight and 10 at the time. We're going to do dosing trials and there's only like 13 people in this area that are going to be involved. Would you want to be involved in the dosing trial? So I asked my little two who were eight and 10, and I said, This is available. You saw your brothers go through this. Is this something that you would want to do or not? And even if you do it, if you change your mind at any time, you can change your mind. We don't have to do this. They both decided that they wanted to do it. They knew that they were going to get the COVID vaccine. They ended up getting the adult dose. Wow. So we were hoping for some cool superpowers, but no one's glowing in the dark. But my my 10 year old had no side effects and I was like, Wow, he may be at a little bit of a headache after the second dose, but he also got to stay home all day playing electronics, but not hundred percent sure what that was. But I did report it. And my daughter again, she had a fever after her second dose, which responded to some ibuprofen, and then she was fine after that. But as a parent, you know, I we know because the other two got unblinded and so come about June. Our whole family's been vaccinated since June. And knowing that. Yeah, you can go to that birthday party, you know, yeah, you can be around friends, we can start to do stuff. You can run Cross Country, you can play basketball. Yeah. Let's go to that Maroon 5 concert. Like, let's let's start to get our lives back. As a parent knowing I've done everything that I could of to protect my kids. It's a huge relief. 

Beth [00:26:13] So what do you say to our listeners who hear you and think like my friend's pediatrician said they probably don't really need to get it? What questions should we be taking ourselves through as we think about what's out there in the ether in terms of advice? 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:26:28] What's funny is that I actually don't know hardly any pediatricians who don't recommend it. So I would say, 

Sarah [00:26:34] But dang that one, get some mad play. Let me tell you. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:26:38] Well, there may be an agenda to get in front of a camera or something there. I don't know, but I will tell you, I know lots and lots and lots of pediatricians and we do vaccines like this is what we do. There are also two other new vaccines that are coming out this year have nothing to do with COVID. One is a replacement for a meningitis that we're already using, and one is a combined Hep B with Pentasil. And nobody wants to talk about those, right? It's all about COVID like, but this is what we do. You know, two new ADHD medicines just came out. And again, I look at that data, I look at the studies, I look at the safety, I look at the efficacy, I look at the insurance approval, I look how much it's going to cost because that's a big thing, too. 

[00:27:18] So this is as pediatricians, this is what we do is so for this vaccine to come out and us to look at the side effect profile, the efficacy, the safety, looking at that stuff, that that's what we do. And we don't have many, many vaccines that we give that are ninety one percent effective. We'll say looking at that study, 91 percent effective is is really high for a vaccine, to be honest with you. I don't know if that's going to hold or not, because obviously the trials were done in the summer, but flu shot, we feel like it's good if it's sixty-four percent effective, that's a good flu year. And if this COVID vaccine ends up being anything like the flu vaccine, you know, we give the flu shot. And I had a great example. Probably about two years ago or so I had two siblings who had had their flu shot. One had had their flu shot, one hadn't. The mom just was busy and hadn't had time to get the other one in for their flu shot. They both got the flu. The one with the flu shot was skipping around the office. 102 fever looked like a rose. The other one who had not gotten their flu shot couldn't get up off the table. I almost had to send them to the emergency room. So it's one of those that if the COVID holds like that and you know, it prevents it some. But even if you get it, you don't end up in hospital with it. You don't end up getting really sick. You don't end up with MIS-C or long haul COVID or any of the serious side effects. That's a successful vaccine. 

Sarah [00:28:35] Well, and when we talk about kids being affected by COVID, I just look at it more comprehensive than that. I'll be honest with you, I'm not particularly worried about my kids being hospitalized or getting long COVID. I understand it's a risk. What I like is that they can, oh, I don't know, be exposed at school and not have to quarantine for two weeks. Like that's the policy at our school. My middle schooler has been vaccinated since his birthday in May. He's been exposed and he has not missed any school because he's vaccinated, so he gets to continue coming to school, you know, and I think that, knowing that they're not bringing risk to their grandparents, to their great grandmother, knowing that we can go to New York City and they can go to Broadway and they can do the things you know, like, I just to me, it's like, let's be real comprehensive about what it means to be affected by COVID because they want they need out of this doom loop like the rest of us. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:29:22] That's a great point. And I think the other thing that pediatricians are feeling a lot of now that isn't quite being talked about as much is the mental health. You know I've had a couple of patients who have tried to kill themselves since COVID. Because again, that we've taken away school, we've taken away every extracurricular activities that you have. We've taken away friends with literally taken away everything. And so for kids to be back in school, there's such a huge difference. And then in our area where the private schools who did go to school full-time last year in the public schools, who didn't, who were all virtual and kids can't learn virtually. I don't know that I could learn virtually, to be honest with you. But there definitely is something about the kids actually being in school. And like you said, if they get exposed and they don't have symptoms, they can continue to be in school versus if you're not vaccinated, then you're quarantined or there's a test to stay, which is, you know, then the kids get something shoved up every day, which and that's not really effective, that those numbers aren't really effective, but at least they're in school. And then you get, you know, you get exposed again two weeks from now and then you have the same thing over and over and over. 

Sarah [00:30:30] You got a sick kid like an actual symptomatic sick kid for 10 days. Pass on that too. Thank you. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:30:36] Or not even you have a sick kid. But as if your kid has to quarantine working parents, we have right. We have take off work like like, I can't do my job virtually. And and honestly, what parent can really do a job virtually with a sick kid at home? That's almost impossible. So just again, not the people who aren't missing quarantine again, their kids are actually in school and seeing their friends, those kinds of things, it makes a really big difference for kids. 

Beth [00:31:04] What do you say to families where the kids have had COVID and they're asking, do they still need the vaccine? 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:31:10] Yes. There's no question all respiratory viruses. It's like it's like the flu. If you get the flu shot, you know, if you get the flu, do you need to get your flu shot? Yes, there's many studies that have shown the best thing that to do, not that you want to get COVID. But if you've had COVID and get a booster, that's going to be the most effective and most protected that you can be. Because again, we know that having COVID having natural immunity, isn't going to last that long and isn't as protective as being vaccinated. 

Sarah [00:31:42] Like a diverse portfolio of immunity. You know, you want to run your life out. She wanted in your bone marrow. You want to wear it all the places 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:31:49] Well and different. You know, you say you got the Alpha variant now, Delta variants coming around and then I'm sure you know Mu and Zeta, you know, all of them are going to be coming down the road. The vaccine is the most broad-spectrum protection that you can get. 

Sarah [00:32:06] Like sunscreen. Got to have that broad spectrum. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:32:08] That's right. 

Sarah [00:32:10] And how do you deal with the like real misinformation? Like what is the easiest for someone who's not a doctor, scientific way to explain this does not affect your DNA? Please, and thank you. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:32:23] Well, I think, you know, you just have to understand how science works, right? It doesn't. This vaccine never goes into the nucleus where the DNA is housed, so you can't affect something that you're never interacting with. 

Sarah [00:32:38] I heard it described as a one-way street that helped me. I'm like, Oh, OK, got it. Got it. It's a one-way street out of the nucleus. Things don't go back in. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:32:45] Never goes into the nucleus, the mRNA only comes out of the nucleus. So it's almost impossible for something like that to happen, because that's just not how science works. 

Sarah [00:32:55] Since you are a vaccines, there is what you do every day. Is there any other vaccine developments or research that you're really excited about specifically? I want and mRNA a flu shot. Is that coming any time soon? 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:33:08] Actually, what I would really like is an RSV shot. 

Sarah [00:33:11] Yes, that was my next question. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:33:13] That one. Again, I do think if they can develop that, that would prevent again quite a bit of sickness in hospitals\izations. 

Sarah [00:33:19] In babies, the littlest of littles. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:33:22] So that one again, because RSV the same way. Nothing we can do. Like again, hopefully your body fights it off. If you get really, really sick and have breathing trouble, you have to go the hospital. There's really nothing that we have against RSV that really works. So again, these respiratory viruses, they're just tough because they mutate quickly. So it would be nice if there was some kind of a vaccine for RSV, that would be my favorite. 

Beth [00:33:48] So you mentioned that with your family vaccinated, you're starting to live in the world again happily. Where are you advising parents on masking post-vaccination? 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:33:59] Well, it would be nice if everyone masked all winter. That would be great because it was such a big difference with the kids wearing masks and also not in school last year, there was such a big difference. So and here the Diocese of Covington decided on Monday to go mask optional to let kids who want, you know, see if they wanted to wear masks or not. And now, within a week, three different schools have had COVID outbreaks, and they're now back in masks. So I think for this respiratory season, I think it's reasonable to have people in masks until you can get all of the kids, school-age kids vaccinated. I think again, until you can get a little the littlest ones vaccinated too. This respiratory season, it's going to make sense for people to wear masks while they're indoors, obviously, if they're outdoors, I wouldn't worry about it, but indoors I would. Now come again, April or so when all respiratory viruses tend to go away. Kind of exactly what happened with COVID is going to happen again. This is what happens with respiratory viruses come about April, May. It starts to get warm. People go outside. I don't know if those numbers start to drop, then hopefully we won't need masks. 

Sarah [00:35:08] Do you mean like public spaces or social gatherings? 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:35:11] Do you mean like indoor social gatherings small? I would say it depends on the size. Yeah. Again, I think if you're an indoor social gathering and it's smaller and you know, most people have been vaccinated, if you're vaccinated, you've kind of done everything that you can to protect yourself. At some point, we are going to have to go back, go back to interacting socially again. 

Sarah [00:35:32] Much to some chagrin. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:35:34] Right. But I so I do think again, if you vaccinated and you know everybody else around you, and if you're talking about like Thanksgiving and Christmas and where people are smaller areas, that's going to be fine. I still feel like if you're indoors, if my daughter is me playing basketball, we'll go to a basketball game. But I sit in my. Which I yelled during games anyway, so no one's going to analyze it by me anyway, but you know, I do think having I think for right now, I think that's been proven that masks are better than non-masking for right now. 

Sarah [00:36:06] What are you telling the mothers and fathers and caregivers of the littles of the five and under? Where where are we at with those vaccines? What are you telling them to do in the meantime? 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:36:15] Well, I know that the dosing trials are underway for the two to four-year-olds. I know that they've settled on a dose, which is three micrograms. 

Sarah [00:36:22] Oh, wow. OK. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:36:24] Five to 11 years old, so they know what dose they're going to use. And now it's just a matter of getting enough kids in the trials so that they can really make sure again that it's safe and it's effective. The six months to two-year-olds were a little bit away. I think again, the way that Pfizer has done it anyway, and I don't know about Moderna I know a lot more about Pfizer than I do Moderna. I know that again. So hopefully by the end of spring, I would love to see again the two to five-year-olds data submitted. And looking at that, make sure it's safe and effective and then get approved. And then for the six months and under, I would love to have a vaccine by fall of next year before going into the respiratory season. 

Sarah [00:37:05] Well, and it's so interesting. So many of those babies are going to have immunity. All my pregnant friends are getting boosters because they're feeling really confident that will pass along to the newborn. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:37:14] It Does. So that's what's interesting, because I know quite a few pediatricians who were pregnant, who got the shot early on, who then tested, then delivered, tested themselves, tested the breast milk and tested the baby and antibodies positive in all three. 

Sarah [00:37:28] That's so awesome. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:37:30] Well, the question is what you don't know is how long is that immunity going to last? Right? So that's that's the real question. So I do think again, respiratory seasons, if we can get it before next respiratory season, I would feel a lot more comfortable. 

Beth [00:37:43] Well, Dr. Dropic, this has been super helpful. Thank you so much. Thank you for giving us your time when we know that all of our health care professionals are doing their very best and hanging on by a thread, and we just really, really appreciate it. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:37:54] If we can get through this respiratory season in pediatrics, we'll be all right. So come about April or so. 

Sarah [00:38:00] We better see you on vacation, come around that time. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:38:04] But thank you for having me again. Hopefully, this is help to somebody out there to make up their mind one way or another. I think as parents, we all do the best that we can, right? Like everyone, just doing the best that they can. And I think you have to look at it a risk versus benefit ratio. And if you could die from right, there's always death on the table. And if you take anything and there's death on the table, probably whatever is going to be on the other side is going to be better. Yeah. So I started to parent about that. So hopefully people listen. They listen to the message again, almost every pediatrician I know of that knows anything about vaccines is recommending it and giving it out of their office. So I think for your listeners, go talk to your pediatricians and get their opinion. That's who knows your kid the best of the best relationship with. 

Sarah [00:38:50] And I'm really feeling hopeful for that. You know, we see in populations that have close interactions with sort of primary care physicians, higher vaccination rates because they have a trusted professional and like most parents, have a pediatric, even if they don't have their own primary care physician, they have a pediatrician. So I'm hoping that will lead to higher vaccination rates. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:39:07] Still, say that says that doctors, most the doctors, in general, are about ninety-six. Ninety-six percent of physicians are vaccinated for COVID. And I think about that and I think, you know what, if I was in med school and I was taking a test and if 96 percent of people got a different answer than I got, I would rethink my answer, you know, like, no, like, that's their field, right? I took immunity immunology at college and in med school. And so again, it like, if that's your field, you know that well, like if if 98 percent of dentists said something, I probably would listen to the dentist, you know, so it's those kinds of things that as health care professionals, this is what we do. Like physicians, we've been through med school, we've studied the immune system. We know how things work. So most everyone that I know has been recommending it. 

Sarah [00:39:57] Well, thank you so much for your time. 

Dr. Amanda Dropic [00:39:58] All right. Thank you guys. Have a great day! 

Beth [00:40:01] Thank you. You, too. 

[00:40:12] Thank you so much to Dr. Dropic for spending time with us at a time when pediatricians do not have a lot of minutes, she talked to us while she was supposed to be eating lunch. It was a really generous act of service and we hope that her comments were as valuable to you as they were to us. 

Simeon [00:40:29] Hi, everyone. It's Simeon here from the studio podcast production team before the next segment. I want to give a quick PSA, Sarah and Beth talk about Dune, as well as the latest installment of the Marvel franchise. And there are some spoilers. If you haven't seen either of these movies, this might be the point to pause the episode. If you have seen them. Then this next segment is for you. 

Beth [00:40:55] Sarah, what's on your mind outside of politics? 

Sarah [00:40:58] Well, we've got two big new sci-fi films. We have the Eternals. We're entering a new phase of the Marvel Universe and then we have Dune. You've seen both now, right? I have. 

Beth [00:41:10] And you've seen them both also. Yes. OK. 

Sarah [00:41:13] What should we start with? 

Beth [00:41:15] I think let's start with the Eternals, because we've talked about Marvel a lot here on the show, so for those of you who don't know, we are both pretty committed to the Marvel Universe. We dressed as Marvel characters for Halloween in both of our families. We've both seen all of the first phase. 

Sarah [00:41:31] And not the first time I've dressed as Marvel character, someone that is like the third or fourth time. 

Beth [00:41:36] So we enjoy these movies as a general matter. What did you think of the Eternals? 

Sarah [00:41:40] I thought it was boring. I was very bored. I think it just becomes more apparent the more you watch, like the people who can do this and do it well, and now you are going to think that I've been kidnaped or my body has been taken over by some sort of alien presence because I'm about to say something really nice about Chris Pratt after being really mad at him a few weeks ago. I was reading something a really great BuzzFeed article put in the links about like. Of course, we were going to get mad at him. It was coming all along, but they were just talking about like he carries blockbusters. He makes blockbusters engaging in a way that is, you just don't realize how hard it is to do until you see people do it badly. But like he can do the corny jokes and the slow parts of the movie, and he carries them well. Jurassic Park, Guardians of the Galaxy, The Lego Movie, that he's about to be in the Mario movie. Like he does it and he does it well, and I'll give him credit. So does Robert Downey Jr. Right? Like, I am thrilled to have Florence Pugh in this universe because I think she does it way better than ScarJo, who I also think is a little boring. And so there were people in this in Eternals and this new universe who I thought had that charisma and could do it marginally well. You know, Angelina Jolie is good at being, I don't know, regal. Like, I thought she did a good job. I thought the guy playing Gilgamesh with her. They had good chemistry. They did it well, unfortunately. I thought the two main Eternals, Sersi and Icarus were so boring, had no chemistry and I didn't even think their powers were fun. So I really struggled with that part of the movie. 

Beth [00:43:25] I don't disagree with anything that you've said. I walked into the Eternals with very low expectations, though, because I told myself, This is going to be like a pilot episode. It's going to be an orientation movie. We're going to have to get to know lots of new people. We're going to have to kind of learn a new piece. 

Sarah [00:43:40] But I like usually like that part. 

Beth [00:43:42] And I'm just going to have to roll with it. And it's a lot of people like, it's so many people. And I said to Chad, after we saw it, there were moments when I thought, I wonder like how many times the directions given were just, OK, everybody stand around and look important because it was a lot of the movie, just all of them standing somewhere having some kind of expression on their faces. So I thought it was slow. I like the direction it's going. I think there's lots of room to work with. I really liked the character who used sign language. I thought she was the most engaging of the new characters who we met. I thought Angelina Jolie would do exactly what Chris Pratt does, and I think she played her part well. I think her part sucks. Like, it's not a good enough part for Angelina Jolie. You know what I mean? They really... 

Sarah [00:44:31] Yeah, she felt a little bigger than the role. I agree. 

Beth [00:44:33] I think so. I mean, now maybe that won't always be the case, right? So what I like about the Marvel movies is how they all build on each other. In isolation, some of them are boring or dumb or obnoxious. 

Sarah [00:44:46] But some of them aren't which make them so much worse, right? Like the standalone ones that are amazing. And then you're just mad. The next time you get to one that's like, not that great. You're like, No, you can't do it. This was great. Go get that person back. Yeah, because I like the intro stuff like, I like learning people's new power. About to speak to that in Dune, but like, I like the setups and I like that they're like, I love the idea that they are these sort of like they're all named after these cultural gods and like how they fit. I think all that is cool. And there were people who were doing way more than they should. I mean, the man who played the valet was still in every damn scene he was in. He was carrying that movie on his back along with all that camera equipment. Give him a movie. He was great. 

Beth [00:45:28] He was great. Yeah. It's not their best work, not their best work. I hope good things come of it. That's what I have to say about the Eternals. But I view every Marvel movie as an investment, just just staying in the universe. I'm going with the story. It just feels like we have to. We have to see it. They make us suffer, sometimes for pay off later. So what do you think of Dune? 

Sarah [00:45:48] I love Dune. I really like Dune. I was thrilled to be somewhere that was not Star Wars or Marvel. I was thrilled to be in a completely new place. You know, I love I love so many people in this movie. I love Oscar Isaac. I was thrilled to get to see him naked. I love I love Timothée. I love him. I thank him as the sweetest and the best. And I love him. Obviously, Jason Momoa, what a delight. I even liked him clean-shaven, and we all know how dedicated I am to facial hair. I just loved it. I loved it. And I, in particular, loved the witch mom. I'm here for the witch mom. I want way, way, way more of the witch mom. I liked her a whole lot. 

Beth [00:46:30] I liked this movie, too. I also viewed this as an orientation movie because my teeny tiny understanding of Dune, and listen, some of y'all are going to be like, You're supposed to research everything. We don't research our pop culture takes. We just, we have to have something that's a little bit of a break. 

Sarah [00:46:45] No Way. I know there were sand worms. That's all. 

Beth [00:46:47] A tiny understanding of tin is that it has been viewed as this impossible text to turn into a movie or a mini-series. That it's been tried. It has not gone well. It is extremely complicated. And so I understood going in that I would probably be lost in a lot of this movie and that there was a lot there was going be a steep learning curve for me to enjoy this universe. But I thought they brought us in. Those of us who were uninitiated, I thought they brought us in really, really well. I am with you on the witch mom. That is it Benny Gezira or whatever. I want to know everything about these women and how they control their reproduction and all these things. I think that's fascinating. I thought it was visually stunning. 

Sarah [00:47:32] Yeah, so pretty. 

Beth [00:47:34] And I thought that it also laid a foundation for so many themes that could go in so many directions. And I also kind of appreciated how right from the outset, no one was particularly good or awful. Yeah, it was the power dynamics, but there wasn't like this sweeping heroism. 

Sarah [00:47:55] That is my only critique. I did not like that the bad guy Duke survived the oh spoiler alert piece. I did not like that. That big bad guy survived. I was like, That's lame. I don't like that. I don't like it when the bad guy seems indestructible. I find that boring. It's not my jam. Like, that's why I loved Game of Thrones so much, because they're like, ain't nobody safe. And I really like that. I think there's like, there's a real exhilaration when you feel like nobody's safe. So that was my only like, Oh, boo! But otherwise, I really liked it. 

Beth [00:48:27] But he survived without a lot of support. And yeah, they were. They were clearly aggressive and bad. I guess they were kind of the villainous group. 

Sarah [00:48:35] I was like, Yeah, go like this. 

Beth [00:48:36] But with everybody else, I felt even with Timothée, I felt like a healthy amount of complexity around how they were going to handle the challenges and opportunities in front of them. And I liked that. 

Sarah [00:48:47] Yeah, no, I liked it. I will be first in line for the next one when it comes out. I think we're only getting one other one, though. I didn't feel like it's supposed to be like a big series. I felt like we got a lot of places to go and one other movie. 

Beth [00:48:57] I guess it depends on how it performs, right? 

Sarah [00:48:59] Maybe they'll stretch it out if it does now, but I liked it. I liked it a lot. 

Beth [00:49:03] Well, thank you all so much for joining us for today's episode of Pantsuit Politics. You may have heard that we have a new book coming out in the spring. We are really excited to share that book with you. It's called Now What? It is actually available now for preorder on Amazon and Barnes & Noble and other places, but we don't want you to forget about our first book. I think you're wrong, but I'm listening. It makes a great holiday gift. If you have already read it, it would mean a lot to us if you left a review on Amazon. Even one sentence makes a difference, and please, do you share this episode if it was valuable to you. We'll be back in your ears on Tuesday. Until then, have the best weekend available to you. 

Beth [00:49:45] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.  

Alise Napp is our managing director.

Sarah [00:49:50] Megan Hart and Maggie Penton are our community engagement managers. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:49:57] Our show is listener supported. Special thanks to our executive producers 

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:50:01] Martha Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holladay, Katie Johnson, Katina Zuganelis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.

The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, David McWilliams, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, Danny Ozment, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katy Stigers, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Vilelli, Amy Whited.

Beth [00:50:40] Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nichole Berklas, Paula Bremer, and Tim Miller.