Chaos in Congress/Stability in Germany

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Ali Cain [00:00:00] The Germans see this as the end of their golden age, and I think that there is quite a lot at stake. Whoever is going to replace her is going to probably uphold the status quo. But that's what is at stake here. And that's what makes this election so important. Under Merkel, Germany has really become a political and economic powerhouse to the point where there's requests now for more German leadership. 

Sarah [00:00:31] This is Sarah 

Beth [00:00:32] and Beth. 

Sarah [00:00:33] You're listening to Pantsuit Politics. 

Beth [00:00:35] The home of grace-filled political conversations. 

Sarah [00:00:58] Hello everyone, welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics. On today's episode, we're going to talk about Congress's very busy week. We're going to talk about the German elections that took place over the weekend. And if you haven't already, listened to our Friday episode, 5 Things You Need to Know About Parliamentary Systems. It will give you a great base of knowledge going into this main conversation today. And then, of course, finally outside of politics, we're going to talk about a great article and ring theory. So stay tuned for that. 

Beth [00:01:28] Speaking of five things you need to know, we have another one of those episodes that might be valuable as you come into today's episode. Before we talk about Congress's busy week, which includes the debt ceiling and government funding, you might want to go back and check out five things you need to know about the federal budget process. The link will be in the show notes and in this amazing playlist that Sarah put together, Pantsuit Politics 101, on Spotify. We've built it out so that when you're recommending the show to people, you will have a good starting place for them. So we're going to continue to work on these playlists so that everybody can hear some of our greatest hits. 

Sarah [00:02:12] Congress has a very busy and I would argue stressful week in front of them. Everything is coming to a head all at once. I can't decide if that is by design or by accident, but either way, we have the bipartisan infrastructure funding bill, the reconciliation package, government funding and debt ceiling all coming to a head this week. So first up, the bipartisan infrastructure funding is up for a vote in the House. Speaker Pelosi had previously pledged to the moderates within the Democratic caucus that she would put that up for a vote by today. But she has now moved the vote back until Thursday. And the moderates want this to pass before they'll support the reconciliation package in that's currently before the Senate. But in the Senate, the moderates are holding up the reconciliation package, specifically Krysten Sinema from Arizona and Joe Manchin from West Virginia. So they have not signed on to the reconciliation package that includes all the progressive priorities. So let's just say, let's just say because I don't, I don't like to doubt people. I really don't like to doubt Nancy Pelosi. So let's just say that they get to. Yes. From Sinema and Manchin by Thursday on the reconciliation package that frees up the progressives to vote for the bipartisan infrastructure funding in the House. But we still have government funding that runs out on Thursday as well as the debt ceiling that needs to be raised. It's a scene, in summary, it's a scene. 

Beth [00:03:45] I think you did a nice job summarizing the scene. Thank you. I think we should tackle these priorities from dumbest to hardest. To me, the fact that we are sweating at all about the debt ceiling is indicative of how unserious many of our legislators are. The fact that Republicans will not consent to do this quickly so that everyone in the economy can take a deep breath about this piece is nonsense. I emailed Mitch McConnell and Rand Paul this morning. I did that at great personal sacrifice because if you've ever emailed Rand Paul, you're going to get on a thousand bizzaro email list. I have spent all year unsubscribing from those and have just re-upped. I mean, seconds later I had some ridiculous messages in my inbox. But I say that not to discourage you because I say it instead to underscore the importance, I think, of recognizing here we are in this really precarious time. The idea that the United States would default is bananas. And just it infuriates me that Republicans aren't even trying to negotiate anything here. They're just saying, no, we won't be part of this. 

Sarah [00:04:59] Well, let's do a little review just for sanity sake, OK? The debt ceiling, when we run a deficit, which we've been running for a while, the Treasury will sell. The Treasury makes up the difference by selling bonds, but they are limited by a ceiling, a debt ceiling, by how much of that debt they can take on. And Congress has to raise the debt ceiling. Otherwise, we default on our debt, which is bad. Just I don't know how to say it either way. It's very bad. And so this used to be sort of rote. Nobody paid attention to it. It's become a bargaining chip. It's been used to reduce spending by Republicans. Of course, they increase the deficit tremendously under the Trump administration, and so now they're saying, well, we're not going to do it this time. They want the Democrats to do it on their own. There's only a smallish problem process-wise with this line in the sand with no seeming requirements attached to it, which is for the Democrats to do it on their own they would have to do it in the reconciliation bill, which is what we were just talking about earlier in the segment. But a couple of things, first, there's no indication that that would fit within the reconciliation bill. You know, we've been talking about the Senate parliamentarian quite a bit. She gets to decide what is actually related to taxing and spending. Recently, she came out and said the parts of the reconciliation bill that affected immigration could not stay because they didn't have to do with taxing and spending. You know what else doesn't have to do with tax and spending, raising the debt ceiling? So there's a chance that she would say it can't go on a reconciliation bill, period. And even to get to the point where she'd answer that question takes weeks, they'd have to go back to committee, redo the budget bill, redo the reconciliation this entire reconciliation package. And we don't have weeks because we're going to default on our debt before then. 

Beth [00:06:45] We don't know exactly what date it is on which we'll default on our debt because a lot of moving parts go into when can Treasury not meet those obligations anymore? But it looks like three to six weeks, according to the latest study that I've seen on this from a bipartisan policy center. So part of what Mitch McConnell is saying is, oh, it's laughable that Democrats would say there's not enough time to do this. They don't even know what the date is. Well, nobody knows what the date is. But we do know that the date is approaching and the date is approaching, not in 2022. It's in the next couple of weeks, if not months. So something needs to happen here. And the bigger thing and what's so cynical about McConnell's statements on this is he knows that it's not even about getting to that X date, it is about all of the uncertainty created in the meantime. So much of our economy floats on how everybody's feeling about the economy. Now everybody's feeling, especially right now. Yes. How everyone's feeling about how the economy might be a couple of months, weeks down the road. And so messing with everyone's confidence in this way is a really big problem. 

Sarah [00:07:55] Well, and it's hypocritical, again, because they raise the debt ceiling. While the Trump administration was creating huge deficits, the Democrats joined in on that. And now they're like, well, we don't want to when you do it. I mean, not that we're all surprised by the cynical, hypocritical nature of Mitch McConnell's endgame, but there it is. OK, so that's the dumbest one. Where would you like to go to next of these four moving parts? 

Beth [00:08:20] Well, I think government funding is the next in terms of just a no-brainer. This just needs to happen. Again, because the precariousness of the economy, why this would even be in question is a mystery to me. 

Sarah [00:08:33] Well, and the government spending has cleared the house. It seems like the main debate is around the debt ceiling. So hopefully the government spending portion will make it through the Senate, although, I don't know, attached to what, because we still have to clear the reconciliation package. The bipartisan infrastructure funding has already passed through the Senate. So the House is just waiting, particularly the House progressives are waiting for the all clear to support the moderate led infrastructure package. And so this is now we're back to everybody's favorite Krysten Sinema and Joe Manchin. And, you know, look, I've read a lot of reporting that said the Biden administration realizes now they asked for too much and too big of a package and they listen. It makes sense, right? They were flying high. They had a lot of political capital. Things were going their way. But, you know, nothing is permanent in politics. And when the political reality changed on the ground, then they realized maybe, I think their eyes got ahead of their stomach. 

Beth [00:09:33] My issue with the size of this package isn't even really the size of the package or the political reality. You and I were bouncing back and forth on Friday through text messages about a podcast that we were listening to about the economy. And what I really appreciated in this conversation, which will link in the show notes, was a discussion of what does it mean to spend too much money when the government creates the money? And it helped me to hear someone just say in in words, in a straightforward way, it is not about how much money. It is about what can realistically be done with that money. And to me, the reason to go forward on the bipartisan infrastructure package, the hard package and scale back a bit on the soft infrastructure or the reconciliation package is when you're thinking about what can realistically be done, even if the Biden administration's approval rating was even higher than when they started talking about this, what's happening on the ground is a labor shortage. And to me, that takes a moment where we need to say, OK, what should we target this reconciliation package toward? And that seems to be the care economy to me, because if there's something holding besides immigration, if there's something holding people back from labor, it is care. Right. But let's focus in on that and then figure out what else we can do down the road, not because I'm worried about how much money gets spent overall. I do believe that an investment in care will pay off in terms of greater revenue and an increased economy overall. So I just think it's not even political. It's just like realistically, what do we need to do step by step here? 

Sarah [00:11:20] Well, and I think we see that reality in the covid funding. You see big amounts of government money going out and not being spent. Like with Tenent assistance and landlord relief. The money isn't the issue. I know that's hard. Going back to our previous conversation from the Reagan era that we've been trying for decades to think deficit spending is bad, it leads to inflation. And what we've seen over decades is that that's just not true. The predictions are not coming true. We have a lot more capacity to spend. And by we I mean the federal government to put the money out to the world. But do we have someplace for the money to go? Right. That's really the issue. And I think we did see that with covid relief that there was a lot of money going out. And it's like it's a little bit of a chicken and egg problem, right? Well, do we not have any place for the money to go, because we've been cutting the federal government and cutting budgets and cutting staffing for decades, or is it because this was always true? You know what I'm saying? Like, did it did the narrative create the problem? If we let the federal government continue to grow sort of along with our population at the pace it was in the 60s and 70s? Well, maybe we wouldn't be in this situation where we've got more money than we have the capacity to put in place to actually put into action. 

Beth [00:12:41] I think there's probably some truth to that. I think that we also you know, I'm a person who greatly values the tension between states and the federal government. And I recognize that builds in inefficiency because a lot of that covid relief money was dependent not on federal workers, but state workers to distribute it correctly or state programs to be in good shape to know where to send the money and how it could be used well. And I'm not clear enough yet on the details of this reconciliation package to understand exactly what channels the money would flow through and whose responsibility it would be to take appropriations and turn them in to programs that actually serve people. But I do, following covid relief, have questions about how much that can be done and on what timetable. And I think that those are legitimate questions. That's why I'm never mad at Manchin and Sinema, especially when I read about Sinema's spreadsheet that she takes to all these meetings I was like, I'm here for that. I guarantee you I would have a spreadsheet if I were in Congress, too. I think it's really important to ask hard questions about this and make sure that the money that's going to be spent has a good purpose. I don't automatically think it's big, bold. Let's just spend all this money and go for it. I do think there are some good plans that have been outlined here. I would just like to see a compromise. You know, I was listening to a podcast out of British Columbia about the Canadian snap elections and the election expert that they had on that podcast said, you know, the mandate from voters is pretty clear. It is that they want overall a progressive direction and they expect the progressive parties to cooperate with each other and compromise. And I thought, man, that is such a good roadmap for the United States right now, because these programs that they're talking about are very, very popular, even among people who would never call themselves Democrats. And I think the nation expects an overall progressive direction around things like infrastructure, college, child care, elder care. And they want the progressive coalitions among, you know, in the Democratic Party to cooperate with each other and have some compromise. 

Sarah [00:14:51] Well, I think what we're looking at is a scaled-down version of the soft infrastructure package. Cinema and magic have made clear they're not going to agree to the 3.4 Trillion, so I think, you know, any path forward involves some scaling back. I do think that in order to come out of this narrative that we've been in for so many years that, you know, cuts, cuts, cuts is how we keep the federal government efficient and functioning properly. There might be a little bit of outpacing. There might be a little bit of spending more than we can put into action at first. That's just how you're going to have to grow it. That's how you're going to have to build up staffing, how you're going to just and again, just change the political narrative to say, like, no, we can't do this, it will be OK. We don't have to be overly consumed with deficit spending. We've seen that over the past several decades. And now it's time to build up a government that can meet the needs of our incredibly big and incredibly diverse populace. And so I hope that's the priority over this week. I think that some compromise between progressives and moderates is not only required but probably called for. I don't make it my business to ever doubt the capabilities of Nancy Pelosi. That's just a bad bet in my personal opinion. I don't bet against her when it comes to getting people in line in order to vote for big, big things. And so I hope they get it done. 

[00:16:20] Next up, we're going to talk about this weekend's elections in Germany with Ali Cain. Ali is currently the program coordinator at the Cardozo Law Institute in Holocaust and Human Rights and Atrocity Prevention think tank in New York City. As part of her job, she monitors human rights and policy developments in Europe. She just finished her M.A. in European studies from Columbia University and her M.A. Thesis analyzed the German far right's political strategy during the pandemic. And we were so excited to have her on the show to talk with us about this really, really important election. 

[00:17:03] OK, so Ali talked us through the state of German politics, and depending on your level of news consumption, you may have seen some stories recently about the end of Angela Merkel's time as chancellor of Germany. She has served in that role since 2005. So her decision to cede power is a huge one for the country. In fact, this is the first time in modern history that an incumbent chancellor has ceded their power. Under Merkel's leadership, Germany has become a hugely impactful player within the European Union. So it's a really big deal, not just for Germany, but for the entire continent in the globe. As Ali pointed out to us.

Ali Cain [00:17:39] The European opinions are totally different from the German opinions. The Germans see this as the end of their golden age. A lot of I it was like 50 percent of Germans said that this was the end of the golden age for them. And I think there is quite a lot at stake. Whoever is going to become the next chancellor, it's not going to completely rock Germany. It's not like it is in the US where there's so much at stake with every single election. Whoever is going to replace her is going to probably uphold the status quo. But that's what is kind of at stake here. And that's what makes this election so important. Under Merkel, Germany has really become a political and economic powerhouse to the point where there's requests now for more German leadership, which is what the Europeans were saying in this poll that was revealed today. I think it was across 12 different European countries. Most of the respondents said that they trust Germany entirely when it comes to economic decisions and human rights. So there's a very big demand right now for Germany to kind of step up its leadership, not only in economic decisions and human rights but when it comes to defense, when it comes to foreign policy, in terms of taking a more hawkish approach towards China and Russia. And when it comes to tech and trade. 

Beth [00:18:46] One of the reasons that Germany has become such a power player is because of Merkel and the stability that Merkel brought to leading Germany. She has been on the international stage, a really trusted partner for a number of international leaders and just a steady hand in conversations. And so her legacy is is a powerful one. 

Ali Cain [00:19:10] She's very into incrementalism. She's not like a radical shifter. So that's kind of what the status quo has been. And I think that's what her legacy will be. I think she'll be remembered as someone who was very even-minded, someone that really put their values into practice and put her values into into policy. She grew up the daughter of a I think she was a Lutheran pastor in East Germany. And you can kind of see those values being reflected in a lot of her policies, especially around migration. She's someone that prioritizes, doesn't want Germany to make decisions on its own. She wants Germany to work with other countries. She values international organizations and whatnot. So I think that will be her legacy, as well as making Germany into a country that is stable, is prosperous and sees itself as a global actor. 

Sarah [00:19:59] Listen, I could spend an entire show on Angela Merkel's legacy because I think she's fascinating. But the country is in the process of moving on to its next chapter. So like we said at the top of the show, on Friday's episode, we talked about how parliamentary systems work. So it won't surprise you to learn that Germany has quite a few major political parties more than we do. So going into that election this weekend, there were seven major political parties vying for power. 

Ali Cain [00:20:24] So there's seven main political parties in Germany. And I say main political parties, because these are the parties that have been able to pass the five percent threshold needed to enter the Bundestag, which is the parliament. So each party there's a lot of smaller parties, too, but they are unable to pass this threshold to have representation in the Bundestag. So there's seven main parties. I'll start kind of on the center-right. So there's the Christian Democratic Union, which is Merkel's party. It's a very centrist party. If I was to equate it to a political figure in the US, I would say is probably the Mitt Romney's and the moderate Republicans of the day. There are very centrist when it comes to social policies, obviously a little bit more progressive because they're European. So a little bit more socially liberal, but not super socially liberal, and they're very focused on the economy. Then you have the Social Democrats who are the oldest political party in Germany, and they, I would say, are more of our moderate Democratic wing, but of course, a little bit more progressive because they're European. So they're focused on gender equality, wages, pensions, whatnot. Then you have the Greens, which is probably the most interesting party to emerge as a contender in this race to replace Merkel. The Greens started off during the Cold War, as is like anti-nuclear, anti-war, very pro-environment party. And it was seen as being quite radical. And it's really transformed itself to be this alternative to the Social Democrats, a more progressive alternative to the Social Democrats. And they've really broadened their their platform to be one of the most pro-European pro-US and pro-climate change, of course, parties. Then you have the free Democratic Party, which is a smaller party that tends to be invited to form coalition governments. And it's, I would say, compared to the US fiscal conservatives, very focused on the economy, very focused on business. Then you have the two extreme parties, which is what we could have a whole separate episode with you guys about this. But there is the left, which is the party that has kind of formed itself out of the Communist Party and former East Germany. So they're very, very left. They want to for example, they want Germany to leave NATO. They're kind of friendly towards Russia. They're very, very to the left. And then you have the far right, which is a party that I've studied in depth through my master's work at Columbia. The far-right is called the Alternative for Germany party. And it actually became the third-largest party in the Bundestag after the twenty seventeen election. So it started off as very Eurosceptic. We don't want to provide bailouts to the southern states during the different financial crisis type of party. And then when the refugee crisis hit, it became the leading voice of xenophobia and government criticism in Germany. And they were the third-largest party after the twenty seventeen election, which was crazy. In a country like Germany, which has this history with far-right extremism. Their support has decreased a little bit, not a lot. Which is what I think has been most shocking about this election, is that they're not really the media is not covering the AfD that much. And I've been having discussions with my friends as to is it because they are just not trying to give it attention? Or are they really not concerned about it because it's only polling at 11 percent? And it's kind of up in the air as to why it's not being covered that much? I think it's a mistake that it's not being covered that much. I think the fact that they're still polling at 11 percent is still problematic. But that's my own opinion. And then the last political party is the Christian Social Union, which is the Christian Democratic Union's sister party in Bavaria, which is Germany's largest state. So they tend to rule together and have the same policies pretty much. 

Beth [00:23:59] When you have seven parties, it enables you to have like a really refreshingly substantive conversation about the issues going on in elections. And we asked Ali to tell us a little bit about the issues that are surfacing here. 

Ali Cain [00:24:12] What's at stake in this upcoming election. If you look at polls, there's a few different issues that are at the top right now, voters concerns. The first is climate change. The second is pensions. Pensions are a big issue in Germany because of its aging population. So there's lots of discussions right now about the pension age, whether to raise it, how much funding should go towards pensions and whatnot. Rent and living conditions is the third biggest issue because it's very hard to find an affordable place to live, just as we have here in major cities, I live in New York. It's very hard to find an affordable place to live here in New York. It's very it's the same thing in Germany as well. That's a big concern for voters. And also the fourth one was COVID. So all those different issues are what the Germans are voting on right now. Immigration, surprisingly, is kind of at the bottom, and same with the European Union. 

Sarah [00:25:01] So it's interesting to note that despite immigration playing such a pivotal role in shaping German politics throughout the last few years of Merkel's time as chancellor, it really wasn't one of the top issues in this particular election. 

Beth [00:25:14] It also interested me to learn that more than half of eligible voters in Germany are over age 50. Now, that's not all that different from the United States. The median age of our electorate is in the early 40s, but the average voter here is also over 50. And that changes the tenor of an election. When you're talking about what timeline are people thinking about. 

Ali Cain [00:25:35] Older Germans, they like the status quo. They like the stability. They like Germany having a leadership role in some capacity, not leading on everything, but having some type of leadership role. And they enjoyed the way that Germany is structured as a society for younger Germans. They're not thrilled with the status quo. They want more socially liberal policies. Merkel did vote against gay marriage. They want more action on climate change. They want to they want higher wages. They want to be able to afford where they live. So there's that there, too, is there is that demographic break between older and younger Germans. 

Sarah [00:26:13] You know, coming from this American perspective, it's easy to imagine, like all these parties, all these issues crowded with big personality and egos because our politics feel so driven by that these days. But this is an area where our political landscape and preference is very different from the Germans. And what I think is so interesting is when you look back at Merkel's legacy. You know, it's hard did she did she create this desire for stability and sort of a policy-driven politics? Was it always there and she was just uniquely suited to meet it? Whatever the cause. What you definitely see is that Germans want that stability. Basically, they like it nice and boring, as Ali told us. 

Ali Cain [00:26:59] It's so funny. The other day, the Berlin bureau chief of The New York Times put out an article saying basically that this election is boring for the Germans and all the leaders are boring. There's no charisma. But to be honest with you, I think that's kind of how Germans like it. I think that the Germans are people look at Angela Merkel, for example. She's just there to govern and she wears the same jacket with everywhere she goes and just different colors like she's not there to, like, get attention or to stir up controversy. She's just there to govern. So I think when it comes to coalition government governing and did the decision on whether to go into the opposition, for a lot of parties, it's really just a matter of what they think is going to be most beneficial for their parties and for the party itself. And then what is going to get them the things that they want to accomplish? Personality is not a huge thing in Germany. And that's what's interesting about the populist parties there, is that they're also they're not these charismatic, outrageous people like Donald Trump and Boris Johnson. They're there they complain about the issues that they want to complain about. They pick up the same narratives that are going throughout the far right throughout the world. I mean, when I was doing my thesis work, I collected over a thousand Facebook posts for the far-right in Germany. And it was like I felt like I was watching Fox News in German, like everything that every narrative about every issue here in the US that was controversial, was what was being applied to the same in the same way in Germany as well. So they do tend to be populace, in a sense, where they like say things where you're just like, oh my God, like that's not politically correct, but they're still not as outrageous and actively trying to shake things up from a rhetoric perspective like populists elsewhere. 

Beth [00:28:47] So we talked to Ali before the election actually took place on Sunday. Votes are still being counted as we're recording, but it looks like Olof Shultz's center-left SPD will have a plurality of the parliament necessitating the formation of a coalition government. Here is what Ali told us about Schultz. 

Ali Cain [00:29:06] Schulz, who is the candidate for the Social Democrats, is currently the vice-chancellor and the finance minister. So he's very involved with the current coalition government. So the CDU is trying to paint him as being extreme because he has said that he would not rule out governing with the left. So now they're trying to make everyone afraid that the communists are coming back and whatnot. But I mean, he's been in the government for a while now. And if you look at the party's platform two, it's very similar to what's going on now. They have some more social, socially liberal policies when it comes to taxation and when it comes to things like LGBTQ plus rights, they're definitely more to the left than what's happening now. But he's kind of he's presenting himself as the natural successor to Merkel because he's been in her government. So there's not I don't think even if he wins, I don't think it's going to be a huge difference to what's going on now. 

Sarah [00:30:01] You know, it's so interesting. On our Friday episode, we talked about how every parliamentary system is different and unique. And for Germany, what they did on Sunday is take two votes. Right. So the first are sort of equivalent to our congressional races of the United States. So they voted for an individual member of parliament from one's district. But then separately, they also voted for a political party. And it doesn't have to be the same party of the representative they picked in the first question, which I think is so fascinating. So the directly elected representatives make up about half of the Bundestag, which is their legislative branch, and the parties are allocated proportional representation from question two to constitute the other half. And parties must receive at least five percent of that vote to qualify for the proportional representation. And so when you look at these results, again, as we're recording, the SPD got about twenty-five point seven percent. The Christian Democratic Union, which is Merkel's party, got twenty-four point one percent. So that's like less than 50 percent. And so you're seeing these smaller parties, the Green Party, the free Democratic Party, they're going to be steering a lot of this conversation because either party like let's just say the mail in ballots come in and Merkel's party surges either way, it's not going to be enough. And they're going to need these other smaller parties to form a coalition government. And I think when you look at that proportional representation in the way it's divided, that's going to be really interesting. It's going to be really interesting. 

Beth [00:31:35] That system breaks in that you're going to have this really substantive conversation. Right? They are separating out voting for a candidate from voting for a party. And I just think that is such an interesting way to constitute your legislative branch. It's also interesting to look at these numbers and realize, OK, about 50 percent of the German population voted for a pretty moderate agenda. That's what you see with the CDU and the SPD. And then the rest of it breaks down along all these different lines. And I think that's pretty representative of the US population right now, too. We just don't get to see it that way. And seeing it that way has some real value. I'm excited to see how this government comes together. I'm also interested to see how long Merkel is going to have to hang around in this caretaker role. 

Sarah [00:32:24] Listen, that's what I as I said on the news brief when you're competent, this is what always happens with your retirement. People are like, oh, wait, wait, wait. No, not yet. Sorry. We just need you a few more minutes. We need your help, but just a little bit more Merkel. So, yeah, it will be interesting to see how long this process takes. I saw the leader of the SPD say, like, we're going to get it done by the end of the year. So we'll see. Everybody will be watching, not just Germany, not just Europe, but the entire world. As Merkel's era comes to the end and Germany launches into a new era of politics. 

[00:33:08] Beth, what's on your mind outside politics? 

Beth [00:33:10] Last Friday, I did another Dear Beth day on Instagram and one person wrote to say that a very close person in her life discovered that her husband had had an affair and she was asking, how can I be supportive of this person? And I responded in the 30 forty five seconds that Instagram gives you that I thought logistically she needs to just show up and say, what do you need? Can I make meals for you? Can I take care of the kids? Can I clean your house? Just what do you need? And emotionally, she needs to let this person lead, because the last thing someone in a situation like this needs is to have to manage everybody else's feelings about what's happened to her. Her feelings are the center of it. And lots of comments about that, especially from people who have lived this reality and said. I'm the person who has been cheated on. Thank you for saying this, because I did have to carry everybody else's stuff even as I was working through my own. And Emily, who's one of our executive producers, said this might be a good time to talk about ring theory, which has been around for a while. There's a 2013 op-ed from the Los Angeles Times, it was written by Susan Selke and Barry Goldman, and it was about Susan's experience with breast cancer and how many people told her a version of, well, your breast cancer is not just about you. And so they said, let's talk about a framework for understanding what to do when someone's in crisis. And that developed ring theory. And the idea is the person who is in the crisis is in the center circle. And you draw a ring around that center circle of the people closest to them, a partner, a parent, a child. And then the next ring is a little further out, trusted friends. And then out goes colleagues and extended family members and on and on. And you just keep going circles around. And the idea is that as you go in toward that center circle, you are providing comfort only. And if you need to process your own feelings, you dump out. So it's comfort in, dump out. And I think that is so helpful. 

Sarah [00:35:23] Yeah, I mean, I think it's really, really a good way to think about it. In theory, I think in practice it's so hard. It's so hard because I think you want to provide comfort to the person consciously but subconsciously and sometimes even consciously you need comfort yourself. And it's just really hard to disentangle those. So I think any framework that helps us become more aware of the way those two things work in concert and start to detangle them is incredibly helpful. 

Beth [00:35:54] I do like that it recognizes, of course, that's a tragedy for other people. Of course, it's a stressful scenario for other people and they are allowed to process that. They're just not allowed to process closer to the crisis. They have to process further away. 

Sarah [00:36:09] Well, you know what I think happens? What I think happens is people have an experience that they feel is equivalent and maybe it is directly equivalent. Maybe you were cheated on, maybe you've had a miscarriage, maybe you've had cancer. And so they put themselves in the ring with you. This is one in this. Maybe we need an addendum to the ring theory, which is only one person in the ring at a time. Maybe that's that's what happens a lot, I think. 

Beth [00:36:39] I think that's exactly it. You know, the framework is really helpful. But another valuable piece of this op-ed which we'll link in the show so you can read is some definition around what comfort looks like. Because comfort usually does not look like advice and comfort usually doesn't look like, let me tell you my story so that you can relate to it or let's be in the ring together. That's not what comfort is. I think comfort is a better word than empathy, really, for talking about what people need. I want you to just do what you can to take care of me right now, not to challenge me, not to sit in it with me, not to pull me out of it, even to just care for me where I am today. 

Sarah [00:37:20] I'm just grateful that there has been increased conversation around this at all. I think I want to take a moment to say this is hard. And we've made a lot of progress as a human race on this, there's additional books written, there's, you know, so many great conversations around what does it mean to be there for somebody in crisis? And I think any addition to that conversation, any moment where we can bring some consciousness to how we react in these moments, how other people react in these moments, I think gives all of us the ability to give some more grace to ourselves and to others where we've messed up, give some more grace to ourselves and others as we move forward and try to do better. 

[00:38:09] Thank you so much for joining us today here at Pantsuit Politics, where we always try to give grace. Don't forget before we leave that our fall box for the extra credit book club is available now. So make sure you subscribe by October 1st so you don't miss out on this great box. And the link to subscribers in our show notes. As always, we will be back with you again on Friday. And until then, keep it nuanced, y'all.

Beth [00:38:40] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah [00:38:46] Megan Hart and Maggie Penton are our community engagement managers. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:38:52] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers (Read their own names): [00:38:56] Martha Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs.

The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, David McWilliams, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, Danny Ozment, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Karin True, Amy Whited, Emily Holladay, Katy Stigers.

Beth [00:39:28] Melinda Johnston, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh. Nicole Berklas, Paula Bremer, and Tim Miller. 

[00:39:37] Oh, I have like motion sickness from all the stopping and starting in that I'm sorry, and I'm going, I'm going to have to move out of my house, these fruit flies, I just have to leave. 

Sarah [00:39:46] There were seven major political parties vying for power. OK, breakdown of the seven major political parties. Hi, Ellen. Sorry you feel bad. 

Beth [00:39:55] Sarah says hi and she's sorry that you feel bad. You want to wave to her? OK. 

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