Should Activists Run the Democratic Party?

Topics Discussed

It would mean so much to us if you leave a review of our book, I Think You’re Wrong (But I’m Listening)!

Thank you for being a part of our community! We couldn't do it we do without you. To become a financial supporter of the show, please visit our Patreon page, subscribe to our Premium content on Apple Podcasts Subscriptions, purchase a copy of our book, I Think You're Wrong (But I'm Listening), or share the word about our work in your own circles.

Sign up for our newsletter to keep up with all our news. Follow us on Instagram, Twitter, and Facebook for our real time reactions to breaking news, GIF news threads, and personal content. To purchase Pantsuit Politics merchandise, check out our store or visit our merchandise partners: TeePublic, Stealth Steel Designs, and Desert Studio Jewelry. Gift a personalized message from Sarah and Beth through Cameo. You can find information and links for all our sponsors on our website.

Episode Resources

Transcript

Sarah [00:00:00] Again, I'm not mad at activists, that's their job. Their job is to not be squishy. But I think the difficulty of some of these issues that we're facing, particularly when it comes to race, it just becomes the only voice in the room and you are a bad person if you are not standing 100 percent behind that voice. And I just think that that is difficult electorally because people vote for lots of reasons. They don't tweet for lots of reasons. The tweet has to be one position, but nobody's taken a single position into the voting booth with them. They are taking the entire complexity of their life experience. 

Sarah [00:00:42] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:44] And this is Beth Silvers. 

Sarah [00:00:46] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. 

Beth [00:01:02] Hello. We are so grateful that you joined us today for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics. On today's show, we're going to discuss the tension around Russia and Ukraine. Then we'll give ourselves some space to talk through a topic that keeps coming up kind of tangentially in our conversations. I'm going to shorthand that topic as the Democratic Party's messaging and self-awareness. But I'm really excited to hear your thoughts on this era. And then outside of politics, we both recently applied for some jobs, and we're going tell you about that. 

Sarah [00:01:30] If you enjoyed today's show, we would love for you to share it with a friend or on social media. Word of mouth is still the best way to share podcasts. And we love seeing all of you share our work with your people. So keep doing that. We love it. Thank you. 

Beth [00:01:52] As we are recording, many news outlets are writing about Ukraine. Some of the headlines are that the U.S. and the United Kingdom have moved family members of their embassy staff out of the country. NATO members are issuing statements essentially telling Russia to stand down. Russia is planning a military exercise off the coast of Ireland. Ireland is like, no thank you. There are headlines that President Biden is even considering a troop deployment to Eastern Europe. So we wanted to spend a few minutes talking about what's going on there. 

[00:02:24] Sarah, the first thing I was thinking about, without spending five episodes on Ukraine, which is probably what the situation merits because of its complexity and the history involved. I think the current coverage gets confusing because it often leaves you wondering, well, wait, is there already a war in Ukraine or are we worried that a new war is going to start in Ukraine? And the answer is, kind of, both. Going back to 2014, after Ukraine had a revolution where a pro-Moscow president was exiled and there was a real sense that Ukraine was going to align itself more with Europe and the western world, Russia came in and annexed Crimea, this peninsula that had disputed status for most of its history. 

[00:03:14] You know, Crimea is a place in the world that lots of people have wanted to rule, and so it's changed a lot over time, and Russia came in and did that. That's when President Obama was president here. The world imposed a lot of sanctions on Russia, it kind of kicked off the phase of relations with Russia that we're in currently. At the same time, fighting broke out in the Donbass region of Ukraine. So it's in the southeastern part of the country, borders Russia. And Russia disclaims any association with this and says this is a civil war. There are people in Ukraine who feel that they are Russian and want to be part of Russia. And so they are fighting to get out of Ukraine. And the Ukrainian government is fighting back. That's the Russian view. 

[00:04:03] The Ukrainian government's view is Russia started this. Russia fuels it. Russia uses all kinds of propaganda to keep it going. But that fighting that started in 2014 continues today, and it is awful. Over 14,000 Ukrainians have died there. There are parts of that region now that are controlled by Russia and parts that are controlled by Ukraine. It has split families. It has been really awful during the COVID 19 pandemic, and it has the sense that a perpetual war is going on. Sometimes it gets quiet, and then there's just suddenly gunfire again. 

[00:04:41] It is a very scary place to live. It is economically depressed by this conflict, and it leaves many of the people there feeling like they're not important enough to Russia for Russia to just come in and take it. And they're not important enough to the Ukrainian government and the rest of the world to definitively stop the fighting with Russia. And so that's been going on for a long time, and it is the escalation and build up around that current conflict that has everyone very nervous right now. 

Sarah [00:05:11] For me, I think the most clarifying piece of information about what are we really talking about here is during the negotiations, which Ukraine was almost completely excluded from between Russia and the United States. Russia wanted a promise that Ukraine would not join NATO. To me,  it's not all you need to know, but it sure is helpful that that's what that's about for them. They do not want increased power or presence of NATO a.k.a Europe even closer to their border. So I think it is about the power of sort of Western Europe. 

[00:05:54] And I also think it is, from Russia's perspective, really about if not weakness, perhaps instability of Putin and the situation in Russia. You know, every place is shifting because of COVID and Russia is no different. Going to make people unhappy. And if they can look right over their border to Ukraine and see democracy, and see representation, and see a different way, that's really threatening to him. His power has been going on for a long time anyway. And so I just think that that tension between the promise of Western Europe and the authoritarian approach of Putin gets Ukraine caught right in the middle. 

Beth [00:06:45] If you imagine that Putin's objective is a new Russian empire, it's very clear that he can't have that without Ukraine. Ukraine is the largest country with all of its territory in Europe. It is right there on the Russian border. Vladimir Putin talks about Ukraine and Russians as kind of spiritually one. I'm not inserting that word. He's used that word that these are people who share a history. Now, that is a vast oversimplification. I think back to our conversation with Colin Woodard about the United States as these 11 distinct regions all trying to bring together different cultures and histories and folklore and music and ideas about what makes a good life, we are not the only nation in the world that has that going on, right? 

[00:07:32] And there is so much of that dynamic of many disparate traditions, cultures, languages in this part of the world much, much, older than all of that that we brought to the United States. And so this is really complex. I never want to oversimplify it. I feel like there's always a risk of oversimplification here. The question to me when I think about the United States involvement as Russian troops are massing near the Ukrainian border, as Russia is doing cyber attacks in and around, I just think about what are the sources of power and responsibility for America in the world? I read a really thoughtful, insightful piece this morning talking about the United States as the overstretched superpower. 

[00:08:23] We are undeniably overstretched throughout the world. We are overcommitted and under delivering because of that over-commitment throughout the world. And so if you kind of come back to the basics, I think that everybody knows -- and part of the reason the situation is so fraught, everybody in the world knows that the American public is sick of sending people overseas to fight wars. We're sick of it. And Afghanistan was like the major announcement that we're sick enough to change the status quo. So I don't think there's any chance that America really gets drawn into a war here because I just think we don't have the appetite for it.


[00:09:02] I don't think sanctions make sense in a world that is trying to recover from the COVID 19 pandemic. At some point, everybody's got a lot to lose here. We can talk a really big game about sanctions on Russia, but we got American companies that would like to sell products in Russia. You've got all of Europe that needs natural gas from Russia as their energy prices are soaring. So everybody has a lot to lose here. And and that makes me think that the only path forward is what our State Department is trying to do. Just keep talking, keep trying to de-escalate. 

Sarah [00:09:33] When I think about Putin wanting this empire, there is a part of me that just wants to pull him aside and be like, what world do you think we live in anymore, friend? It's 2022. We live in a global environment, but I'm not sure we are still in the days of empires. It's like we've moved on from that. The problem is, from the United States angle, we've moved on from that like protective superpower situation too. I mean, let's be honest, we don't really fight wars anymore. We just have perpetual engagements. So can I, you know, see a scenario where we are perpetually engaged with Ukraine, helping them as best we can and that other overstretched way to try to hold off Russia? Yeah, I can, because that's what we've been doing since Crimea. 

[00:10:20] So I just think like, that's it. Nobody wants to accept the reality that this is not the world we live in anymore. We're all just too tied up together. That's true with our with our new posture towards China. That's continue to be true with Europe. And so it's like we're just stuck. We're stuck in this old way of thinking about war and empires. I completely felt movement. And I think the pandemic is going to continue  to loosen those postures. But as long as you have people like Vladimir Putin and then Joe Biden and people who are just too -- I think that sort of cut their teeth on the cold war, we're not going to completely move on from that posture. 

Beth [00:11:02] And it's weird because Putin is stuck in a sense and also not stuck at all in another sense. He has gotten himself a lot through almost war. I read a really good piece framing in it that way too that -- we'll link in the notes here, that an almost war is the best thing. He gets invited to international summits. He gets to talk to high level officials from other countries, you know. He gets to stoke his people about incursion of the West. He makes a lot of propaganda off of any response that the West makes to Russian troops escalating. He says. "We're not doing anything unusual. You guys are sending all these missiles to our welcome mat, basically." Like, one of the most interesting things about learning more about foreign policy is to help you see yourself more clearly. 

[00:11:48] Vladimir Putin is the president of a country that everybody wrote off in the 90s. It went from being a superpower to people saying, "Look at Russia, it's like decimated. No big deal anymore." There is enormous power in injuring a people's pride about their nation. We should know because we elected Donald Trump on just the slogan of making America great again. Like, when people's pride is injured in what their national standing is, that is very, very, powerful. So Putin has played his hand well. He's sitting on a ton of cash. He's got very powerful oligarchs who prop him up. He's got a fairly passive population. And the more confusion he creates, the more he's able to sustain that status quo. 

[00:12:36] And this is why the one departure that I really have with the Biden administration and how to handle this is around the sanction issue. If you're talking about things like going after cell phone service for the Russian people, going after consumer goods at any level, that to me is the wrong direction. Because I think what ultimately brings Vladimir Putin around to the reality that you were just describing, Sarah, is an empowered Russian public. The more information that gets in, the more they are able to communicate with the outside world, the more they see that things are going well. I mean, if you're looking over the border into the Donbas region of Ukraine, you're kind of like, well, Russia seems good, it seems stable, it seems predictable. So you've got to be able to offer a vision. And I think offering that vision means allowing people access to cash, business, communication. 

Sarah [00:13:34] Yeah. But, I mean, I think that was the theory with China and it has worked out so well, right? Like, we'll invite them to the table and that will decrease the power of the authoritarian government there. And that doesn't turn out to be true. 

Beth [00:13:44] But I mean at the people level, this is what bothers me about sanctions. If you get beyond the leadership and are cutting off access to communication for people, which is also the problem in China, right? The Chinese people get such filtered media, deal with so much censorship, so much lack of access. I feel like that's where you do get stalled out. 

Sarah [00:14:04] I mean, I think that there's no doubt that putting pressure on the people creates pressure on the authoritarian government. The difficulty is you can then not easily channel that pressure. You know, we want the pressure to do one thing, which sounds great if it does that, but often it does not. The pressure is not easily controlled and that frustration with the sanctions and with their government might bubble up in unpredictable ways. You know, I don't know if anybody ever really wrote Russia off because they always had nuclear weapons, which meant like the Cold War, while over within the national security apparatus, was sort of a continued concern. 

[00:14:43] And, to me, what I think is the most interesting part of this current moment with Ukraine, is the fact that Britain decided to publicly speak about intelligence that said that Russia was going to install a puppet leader in Ukraine. Because it felt like it's not like that was news to anybody in the intelligence community in the United States or Great Britain or Germany --. 

Beth [00:15:04] Or anybody who knows anything about the history of this Country. 

Sarah [00:15:06] Right. So I think the fact to push that publicly to me says that really what is happening is that, for decades this global chess game, this post-Cold War empires war, and all that has been happening behind closed doors in the national security apparatus to mixed results, I think. And so to push it out into the public and say, "Well, you might decide that's not worth it, but let's let these people know that this is what's going to happen," I think is interesting and I'm kind of intrigued by it. I'm not saying it's the best strategy, but it feels like at least we're not all playing puppeteer, not just Russia. At least our puppeteering is public. And so people can say, "Well, we knew this was going to happen and we decided not to engage." Because it feels like that's -- I mean, I don't know if that level of transparency is helpful in the foreign policy. All I know is up until this point without it, we're not exactly getting the results we want.  

Beth [00:16:05] There's a lot to discuss around Ukraine and to really get into the details of how we got here. So, yesterday we released a 30-minute More To Say episode about Ukraine. More To say and Good Morning are the two podcasts that we create Monday through Thursdays for people who will become members of Pantsuit Politics and financially support our work here. They are going to be so many important stories this year about the Supreme Court and foreign policy and the economy that just get swamped by political coverage of our elections. And we're really proud of the membership community that we've built and the podcast we make for that membership community to follow those developments n more detail. And we would love for you to join us there, either on Patreon or Apple Podcasts subscriptions. 

[00:16:48] Next up, we are going to do a little political coverage swamping ourselves and switch gears to what's going on with the Democratic Party as we move into this midterm election period. Sarah, I feel like there's a range of activity going on around Democrats right now. There's some panic. There's some soul searching. There's some really good healthy strategic planning. There is some internal unhappiness. And I've been excited to have this discussion because for a while you have been talking about how we are not focused enough on the fact that in 2020, despite losing the election, Trump gained voter share with black men and with Latino voters. And I thought that could be a good starting point for us to share how we're thinking about democratic politics right now. 

Sarah [00:17:47] Yeah, I think the election of Eric Adams as the Mayor of New York City really sharpened this conversation in real ways because he used a very different strategy than the more progressive left wing candidates and the primary. I mean, he talked about law and order a great deal and appealed to the working class voters of color in the outer boroughs and he won. And so everybody said, including him, we got Democratic Party because the loudest, most present on Twitter, part of the Democratic Party, which is by and large higher income, middle-class, white voters of color are more left leaning than other huge portions of the Democratic base. 

[00:18:34] And, I mean, and you see that play out in the 2020 results. You know, Biden dropped with non-college educated whites and with non-college educated voters of color. So that education gap is growing and there feels like this kind of abandonment of the white working class of the Democratic Party, they've just kind of handed them over to the Republican Party. Which is fine, I guess, but you cannot lose voter share on almost sort of any level with voters of color as far as the Democratic Coalition is concerned. And so I just think that there is this, well, we're not the racist ones and so that's all we need to do. That is clearly not connecting any portions of the country because I don't want to speak about voters of color, either educated or non-college educated as a monolith. But it just seems like something we cannot ignore any longer. 

Beth [00:19:28] So as you think about that, what's the call to action around that from your perspective. As you kind of watch what the parties focused on right now, how would you bring that into the mix to say, "Hey, this is where we might shift." 

Sarah [00:19:42] I thought about this a lot, particularly when it comes to narratives about race and policing and communities of color. I don't want to downplay for one second the impact of that moment in 2020. You know, we talk about the murder of George Floyd and it becomes this sort of larger than life moment or narrative. But we cannot lose the fact that we all watched that man die on our phones or our iPads or whatever screen you're watching on. We watched him die. It felt like this pivotal moment because it was. Because it was horrific. And so I think it  took on this ethical momentum. This is the right thing to do. And there were activists surrounding this moment, and activists are often ahead of the populace, that's by definition why you're an activist, right? 

[00:20:35] You're trying to push the populace. In a direction. That's what your action is meant to do. You know that the majority of people don't see or understand things the way you do. And so you're trying to push them. And so I think we all had this moment where we're like the activists are right, we have to listen to them. But activist politics, especially in the age of social media and electoral politics, are different. They're just different. And I think speaking as a white college-educated member of the Democratic Party since the age of 18, I think it just becomes, well, it's the right thing to do. And that's just all we have to explain to people. And that's not good enough. It's just not. 

[00:21:16] And I think we can all sit around and wait for this education gap to like magically resolve itself. And what, for like non-college educated voters of all races to say, "Yeah, y'all are the experts, we'll listen to you." But I don't think that's going to work electorally. I'm not saying like of anything about the ethics of our positions, but I want to win elections. And I just think like sometimes those conversations get crossed in ways that are not productive. If you disagree with me electorally or like about an electoral strategy, well, then you're like unethical on this position. And I just don't think that's getting us anywhere. And I don't want to see these voter shares continue to to drop. I want a real coalition that listens to people's concerns and does not assume what the winning strategy will always be. 

Beth [00:22:07] I struggle with my place in this conversation because I am not a communications expert. I have been wrong in so many of my predictions over the past few years about what people are voting on and what matters to them. And so, you know, I sit here with humility about all of it. And I also am unsure of my place in the Democratic Coalition. I know I'm not a Republican anymore. That's about as far as I go. When I read the data on the 2020 election, I have a lot of questions about how useful it is going to be to us in 2022 and 2024 for a bunch of reasons. 

[00:22:43] I think that the pandemic has shifted so many pieces, not just in people's position, but physically where people are located. We're looking at a different map. When you are getting into slicing these numbers about what really moves a presidential election, a lot of it is just where people live and how they vote in those states that become key in the Electoral College. And there's been a lot of shifting. I think it's going to matter that lots of people have left California and moved into other states. I think it's going to matter that lots of people have moved around in the Northeast. So in one respect, I just think like the -- 

Sarah [00:23:19] And a lot of people have died for -- for what's worth. 

Beth [00:23:21] A lot of people have died. I mean, I just think the board has been reset in a way that it's hard to translate the last elections numbers to this election. More broadly than that, I am concerned about the difficulty that exists in conveying a positive, optimistic message for Democrats. Because I worry that anything that sounds like an expression of a positive, optimistic message is automatically greeted with, well, that comes from a place of privilege or that is purposely ignoring all of these challenges that are very important to us. That is willfully ignorant. That positive thing happens at someone else's oppression. 

[00:24:13]  And I don't say that to say, "Put on a smile and stop caring about people." I think it's been healthy to listen to activists. I really do. I think 2020 was extreme. I mean, I'm a person who cared about criminal justice reform before 2020.  And I think there have been some really healthy sunlight shed on entrenched problems around policing, around race, around incarceration. I think that the focus during the pandemic on people living with disabilities and how much we ignore the experience of people living with disabilities in this country, I think there's been some really healthy discussion, healthy sunlight. I think we're having healthier conversations about indigenous people. I am not saying stop caring about oppression, privilege, marginalization. 

[00:25:05] I am saying that in the midst of that car -- and I think care is the right word, it's not coming across as care as much as berating everybody for not doing the right things. Or saying that America is so lost that we can't find our way to a healthier middle. You know, I'm not a very angry person. So when Biden comes across as angry, sometimes I'm kind of like, "What are you doing, friend?" But I get his anger. It seems like whenever he's trying to say things are good, he sounds a little mad about it. Like, dammit, we can be happy here in America. And I sort of get why he has to feel that way. Because I think there are so many pressures around democratic messaging that pull you to a space of: Unless you're talking about how terrible things are, then you're not focused on the experiences that people are having. 

Sarah [00:25:57]  I posted on Instagram that we read this article that was recommended by Erin Moon and her little Swipes newsletter which is just excellent. And I don't just say that because she called out one of your tweets. But it was called Your Bubble is Not the Culture. And it was particularly about, pop culture commentary, movie reviews. And he talked a lot about the like, oh, will, Lin-Manuel Miranda's cringe. We'd had this conversation in Pansuit Politics. He seems to be cashing those checks from Encanto just fine about their Cashing. And, you know, the conversation surrounding J.K. Rowling and all this stuff. And his argument was really interesting. One, he said the same thing everybody says which is, there's like two percent of the -- it's not even that much -- of the population on Twitter. 

[00:26:36] So please don't confuse that for the actual way people feel. It's a small minority of people. And I thought what's really interesting is that, like, people think they have to justify the importance of their commentary on movies or TV or celebrities by adding politics. Like, that makes it important enough. Like, you're not wasting your life reviewing movies because really it's about the politics of things and you have good politics based on these movies. And so that means you're doing the work. I thought it was so good and so insightful and so applicable to exactly what you're talking about. Which is , you know, politics consumes everything and because there are not a lot of places where our identity is, you know, sort of resting on a strong foundation of connection, it like it has to hold so much. 

[00:27:23] We're  not breaking any new ground here. We talked about that in our first book. And so what happens is, you know, I think particularly with white collar judge advocated voters, like myself, we are the minority. There's just no way around it. We are a minority of the electorate. You know, part of my take away is, let's just all wake up every day and remind ourselves of that. Like, we are a minority. And especially, I think when it comes to race, it's just, well, we're not the racist ones. And, again, that's good enough, but it clearly isn't always good enough. Again, voters of color are not a monolith. They are motivated by different things. 

[00:28:00] And that's okay because we're not talking about who's going to heaven or not. We're talking about who you're going to vote for in this election. We're not talking about whether or not you're a good person or not. We're talking about how you're going to fill out your ballot. And because those decisions are hugely impactful, it's almost like this really weird paradox where we have to, like, dial down the heat so that we can strategically think about these elections that matter so much. They are really impactful on people's lives. Governing is important. 

[00:28:32] And so we have to be a little more clear headed about the electoral strategy, again, in this weird paradox, like, be cooler and think more electorally about this strategy because people are really thinking about it, you know, emotionally, not super strategically like you hoped they would. Like, it's just it's all this weird balance of rationality and emotion and governing and elections. It is a -- I don't know if there is a balance. And if there is a balance, you're right, it changes every single election year based on the pragmatic reality of the  ever increasing pace of change in our world. Well, that's not very helpful, but I just think we want it to be simple and it's not. 

Beth [00:29:16] I think what's super helpful there is the mantra I am a minority of the electorate. I was reading an article from commentary which is admittedly more conservative, kind of, more libertarian leaning. And I'll link it. You'll have some problems with it. If you're in our audience and read this article, you'll not like all of it. Okay, I'll just assure you with that. But it was talking about The Atlantic and how The Atlantic really appeals to college-educated white liberals who probably have higher share of income than most people. 

Sarah [00:29:44] As you can tell by the way I just quoted an Atlantic article that I really loved. 

Beth [00:29:48] Yes, and I love The Atlantic's work too. I also felt the criticism of The Atlantic as what the author of this article described as having a tone of your meets nature. Because when you look at the headlines it does overindex the experience of those of us who were able to stay home for the early days of the pandemic. I have to remind myself it is not the majority of people who got to work from home. That is an experience. It does have unique features, but that is not the majority experience. When we talk about school closures, the way that impacts my life is far from the experience that the majority of people have. And just remembering that and, again, like trying to stand with some humility about what this party does overall or how we talk about things or what legislation is possible in our current political climate, seems very important to me. 

Sarah [00:30:44] You know, when you were talking about your concerns about the criminal justice system, well, I always like when you say that because I would say you are a criminal justice activist, right? 

Beth [00:30:54] Yeah. I am radical on those issues for sure. 

Sarah [00:30:55] You're radical, but you name. That's what I like is that you say that every time. I am radical on this. I have outpaced the American populace and I understand that. And I think that if we could just do that, I am radical on abortion. I am way further left than the American populace on that issue. And my posture cannot be: but I'm right, and if you would just trust me and do what I say, everything will be okay. That's not how it works in a pluralistic society. It's not will we get there and then everybody falls in line. See it like, oh, I don't know, second wave feminism or any other. And on the other side you can't force people, right? And it just feels like the first and most important step is just identifying those places where you are further to the left and make it a posture of curiosity, not judgment. 

[00:31:47] I'm more progressive on this issue that makes me better. How about I'm more progressive on these issues, why would that be? What life experiences did I have access to that other people didn't? Is there something to learn from the fact that they disagree with me? You know, that's what I think Colin Watters posture about the regions is so helpful. Is there just cultural and historical context here? It is helpful not to ignore because as long as we just -- you know that sort of top down, well, we're the minority but we're educated and we're right, so just listen to us. The more we lean into that, especially as an electoral strategy, the worse it's going to get. 

Beth [00:32:26] What really connects with me about what you're saying is that I can name on criminal justice issues that I am extreme. I'm extreme to the left. I think that would be a fair characterization. But on the vast majority of issues, you could fairly call me a moderate, a squish pragmatist. The way I feel about it shifts based on the circumstances, and that's fine with me. I think most Americans are like that on the vast majority of issues, and that's okay. The reason that I have no future in the Republican Party even if you put aside any particular policy issue -- you can just put aside all the cultural stuff, the Republican Party announced to me that there is no place for people like me in it. And it does that through actions over and over. It centers lawmakers who go against the party line on things it. Three media cancels more people than [Inaudible] has ever had and in some ways by saying, like, "This person said they got the vaccine, they're over now." 

[00:33:33] You know what I mean? Like, there has been a very concerted push over the past six years in particular, and maybe before that, if I look at it more honestly, to say, "If you are not with us, you're against us." And that's just doesn't work when you have mostly moderate, squishy, malleable positions on the issues depending on what's going on in the world. And I just don't want to see that become -- you know, a lot of people already believe that about the Democratic Party. I don't want to see that become true. I'm pretty upset about Senator Sinema being censured by her party because that just looks to me like, again, that activists push taking over. And I think that has been the death knell of the Republican Party. And I don't wish it for Democrats because I think Democrats electoral prospects are extremely important to our democracy right now. 

Sarah [00:34:25] When you describe yourself that way, I think about the reporting that always comes out when we discuss abortion. And there's always this headline like Americans are really confused on abortions. Or Americans really are inconsistent on abortion. Like they want it to be legal, but not all the time. Or you see this a lot with like cultural commentary or even like What's the Matter with Kansas. But when you put it in a think piece and call it, you know, we need to hold the paradox or we need to hold these complicated realities, well, then it's it's admirable. But when people vote in ways that don't align neatly, then we act like they're confused. Well, which is it? Is it okay when at the top we call it paradox, but at the bottom we just say, like, they don't vote their interests? 

[00:35:06] Because it feels like there's a different approach depending on who's engaging in this paradox because I think that that is often the case with even the most difficult issues in America. That there is some squishiness depending on who you are and what your life experience is and, you know, the economic reality of that particular moment in time, whether or not there's a pandemic. I mean, there's always squishiness. And when we take the posture, we think that in order to have any strong message you have to eliminate the squishiness. 

[00:35:39] And I just don't think that's true. I think some of the best people out there, like Bill Clinton and Barack Obama who could work that they acknowledged that they were comfortable with paradox. I mean, I know sometimes that drove people crazy about Obama, but you can do that. Even Donald Trump -- listen, as ridiculous as he could be, there were moments where he would say, "Yeah, no, it's a little bit of both." Like he could do that even successfully from time to time. You know, again, I'm not mad at activists. That's their job. Their job is to not be squishy. Their job is to be that hard edge that pushes everybody in a different direction. 

[00:36:12] But I think because of social media and our global environment, the difficulty of some of these issues that we're facing, particularly when it comes to race, it just becomes the only voice in the room and you are a bad person if you are not standing 100 percent behind that voice.  And I just think that that is difficult electorally because people vote for lots of reasons. They don't tweet for lots of reasons. The tweet has to be one position, but nobody's taken a single position into the voting booth with them. They are taking the entire complexity of their life experience and we have to be able to speak to that in campaigns. 

Beth [00:36:51] And, you know, it just gets back to your involvement too  because the retreat of moderate, squishy, malleable folks from party politics has meant that you don't have activist and party people anymore. They're one and the same. And that perpetuates this. What would help this problem, I think -- because I agree with you, I want to keep the activist. I think it is very important to have people with extreme positions on a whole variety of issues in the mix. It is important for people to develop expertize around issues, to have a future vision of issues. No, I'm not mad at anybody here. 

[00:37:30] We do need people who can bring that complexity and breadth of life experience that we walk into the voting booth with into the parties themselves, so that the parties themselves can calibrate to the electorate in a way that doesn't just sound like, well, this is what our Republican primary voter want's. Or, well, this is what makes you a good human being. And so we're going to pursue this to the end of time. What is both ethical and supportive of a healthy, functioning democracy and a successful electoral strategy. It's a hard thing to get especially in an age of social media, but it's also a necessary thing to get right. And I think more people being involved would help. 

Sarah [00:38:15] And it's going to look different in West Virginia or Arizona or Brooklyn, and we have to let that be okay. Twitter makes us and social media makes us want to settle on one spot. The nationalization of our conversation makes us feel like there's one right answer, but there isn't. Not in a country of 300 million people, not in a party with as diverse a coalition as the Democratic Party. 

Beth [00:38:43] Thinking about showing up with your full life experience to try to make a difference where you are is probably as good a transition as we could hope for into our next segment. Okay, Sarah, you want to tell people what's going on outside of politics for us? 

Sarah [00:39:05] We have both applied to be substitute teachers last week. I'd been thinking about it. You had been thinking about it. And then you voiced that you were thinking about it, and I said, "That's the Holy Spirit at work because I was too, so let's do it." 

Beth [00:39:18] Yeah, I've had this persistent, nagging voice in my head. This is the way that you can help if you know there is a desperate need in schools for just human adults to come in and provide some relief while lots of teachers are sick. Lots of teachers are burnt out. Lots of people just can't come to work right now because of quarantine, whatever. This is the way you can help. And it just kept knocking and knocking and knocking and I finally said out loud to you, "I think that I could make space on Fridays to go do this within our schedule. What do you think?" And I really am glad. I mean, there are a bunch of things to say about this. But one I want to make sure it doesn't go unsaid is, I'm so grateful that in the context of our partnership I can come to you with something like, I think I would like to clear my calendar on Fridays to serve and you don't think, are you not committed to our work? I felt like that that led to a really healthy conversation about how we can contribute in our communities. 

Sarah [00:40:18] Yeah. There's only so many times I can pat one of my best friends on the back because it teaches me like, well, that must be really hard. You know,  there 's only so many times I can do that and not feel like, what can I do? Seriously, what can I do? And this feels like something that I can do. Now, the process has been weird because the process is clearly oriented to people who want to work in the system, except where there's not a deep bench of people who want to work in the system right now. My friend was telling me, usually, they would get hundreds of applications for new jobs, and the last time they got three. 

Beth [00:40:50] Wow. 

Sarah [00:40:51] And so, you know, like, they want transcripts and it was really funny. At one point they were like, Do you want a transcript or a diploma? And I was like, well, I got my law school degree right here on the wall. So I sent them a picture and they were like, oh, we need transcripts. And I was like, for what? And she was like college. Which is fine. But I wanted to be like, you need my college transcripts when you know I have a law degree. I mean, it's fine. It was a very long time ago. I will figure out the process. And I did, and it was kind of a fun walk down memory lane. But  the process is oriented and the pay is clearly oriented to people who are trying to get a permanent job in the system. And I just think like, well, maybe we need to reevaluate that because it ain't working. 

Beth [00:41:31] I think you're totally right that there needs to be maybe a ramp for parents who just want to help. 

Sarah [00:41:36] Yeah. 

Beth [00:41:36] Because, honestly, I'm not doing this to get paid. I just want to help. I really respect what teachers are doing right now. And I think from a business perspective, teachers are a very important component of our audience. We have a lot of teachers who financially support our work, who tell other people about it, who use our work in their classrooms. And so it feels important to me, both in my community, locally and this community of people around the podcast to show up wherever I can for those folks. I did get all my orientation materials this morning and see that I have to go get a physical. And I totally understand the background check and stuff. But some of it, I'm thinking, oh, this is -- this is a lot.

Sarah [00:42:20] Do you need my help now or like in two months? 

Beth [00:42:22] Right, exactly, exactly. It was like, you have 30 days to complete all this stuff. And I'm like 30 days? My principal said she could use me tomorrow, you know, if we can get through the process. So it's a lot. It's nobody's fault that it's a lot. I agree with you that that could use some evaluation by our state legislature on what the requirements are here. Well, that is one way that we are thinking about trying to make a difference here locally. We're curious about all the things that you have felt called to you lately because it is a time where there are so many acute needs that I think many of us have those voices in our heads of how can I help? 

[00:42:54] And we're so glad that you've been here to think through that with us. One way that you can help us besides joining our membership communities, which we would love for you to do, is to leave that one sentence review for our first book, I Think You're Wrong, (But I'm Listening). If you have read it, that would be extremely valuable to us ahead of our next book coming out. Thank you again for being here. We'll be back with you on Friday and in our membership spaces. Between now and then, have the best week available to you. 

[00:43:29] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director. 

Sarah [00:43:35] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music. 

Beth [00:43:41] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:43:45] Martha Bronitsky, Ali Edwards,  Janice Eliott, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tiffany Hassler, Emily Holaday, Katie Johnson, Katrina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs. 

[00:44:02] The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lily McClure, Jared Minson, Emily Neesley, The Pentons. Tawni Peterson,Tracy Puthoff, Sara Ralph, Jeremy Sequoia, Katy Stigers, Karin True.  Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Vilelli, Amy Whited. 

Beth [00:44:19] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston, Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan McHugh, Nicole Berklas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

Alise NappComment