Preparing to Vote in an Interconnected World

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Lessons from the UK’s shortest serving Prime Minister

  • Protests in Iran with Kerry Boyd Anderson

  • Outside of Politics: Family Halloween Costumes

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LESSONS FROM THE UK’S SHORTEST SERVING PRIME MINISTER

PROTESTS IN IRAN WITH KERRY BOYD ANDERSON

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:25] Thank you so much for joining us today for a new episode. We always really appreciate you spending some of your time with us, and we think deeply about what to share with you as you spend that time here. Today we're going to start by talking about Liz Truss and the UK. I'm sure you've all been following Liz versus lettuce and have seen that lettuce prevailed. But we want to talk about that as we think more about the midterm elections and all the discussion here in the United States about the economy, because we think there are some real lessons from the UK for us as we go to vote here in the midterms. So that's what we're going to discuss first. And then we are bringing back Pantsuit Politics' favorite, Kerry Anderson, to help us make sense of the protests in Iran. Again, lots of lessons about how interconnected we are across the world and what it means when a people are struggling to be freer and how we want to support that effort. And then stay around to the end of the show because Outside of Politics we are discussing our long time tradition of family Halloween costumes and some really significant changes in our family this year. It's a little bit hard for me to talk about, but we're going to do our best.  

Sarah [00:01:38] We are now four episodes out from our seventh birthday here at Pantsuit Politics. We have an ongoing birthday challenge. Today, we are asking you to post four times about the show. Now, this can look any way you want it to look. You could comment on a post on social media. You could share an episode in your feed. You could forward our email newsletter to someone and say, "This is a great newsletter. You should subscribe." However you want to do it, we are not picky. And then if you want to be entered to win our Pantsuit Politics time capsule giveaway, go to the link in the show notes and share with us how you posted about the show. We love, love, seeing all your entries. We got this incredible message from Karen. She said, "Throughout my five years of Pantsuit Politics, I have learned that showing up consistently and just having the conversation matters. The way simply continuing to show up has impacted my life and relationships has had impacts that I'm not even sure I'm aware of all the time. But it's big and it's important."  

Beth [00:02:40] Thank you, Karen. And thank you everyone, for your kind support. It really means a lot to us. And what we hope is that this challenge will help us build an even larger Pantsuit Politics community filled with thoughtful people doing good work that ripples out beyond those of us who gather here twice a week to discuss the issues. Up next, we are going to talk about what's happening in the UK and what we can learn from it here in the U.S.. We know that many of you are thinking about mid-term elections and a big focus of the midterm elections currently is our discussion about the economy, about gas prices, particularly about inflation. And we think that we can learn a lot from what is unfolding in the UK as we think about those issues in our elections. So we're going to spend a minute talking about what is happened during Liz Truss' very short tenure as Prime Minister and then we're going to talk about what we are learning from that that's relevant here in the U.S.. Sarah, you've done an excellent job tracking this on Good Morning for our premium subscribers. Can you give everybody the short version of how it came to be that the UK is about to have its second prime minister in two months?  

Sarah [00:03:57] Liz Truss became Prime Minister. She met with the Queen and then the Queen like the next day, which was probably a bad beginning under any measure. She's going to be the Prime Minister with the shortest tenure in UK history. She beat out George Canning. He only served 119 days because he died of tuberculosis. Okay, so really what took Liz out? She wasn't on a firm foundation to begin with, but what really took her out was her  "mini budget' which she put together with her finance minister, Kwasi Kwarteng. Now what they were proposing should sound very familiar to world citizens everywhere. If you look back at government policy over the last several years, which was a "pro-growth agenda" that involved a lot of tax cuts for high earners and lots of government spending. She had a big proposal to subsidize energy costs. The markets did not like this plan. I have this visual in my head of Liz and Kwasi Kwarteng dancing long after the music stopped. Like the markets were, like, what are you talking about? We don't want growth right now. We have too much growth. We're all consumed with inflation. And so where you see a lot of this panic is in the bond market, which is how governments borrow money. People buy government bonds. And usually they're very safe. So you see really low interest rates on, let's say, a 30 year government bond. Except for you didn't after Liz's plan. You had way more people trying to sell the bonds than buy the bonds.  

[00:05:46] And the people who were buying the bonds were demanding interest rates up like four or five percent from what they were before. So the Bank of England, which is the UK's version of the central bank, steps in and says, "We cannot have this, we cannot have a panic in the bond market. The whole financial system could collapse. So we're going to buy billions of dollars ($20 billion exactly) worth of government bonds." Now, they are still trying to pivot to what other central banks are doing. And they're saying on November 1st they're going to embark on "quantitative easing". All this code language in the economy when they're trying to describe this monetary policy that kind of makes me laugh. Which basically means are going to stop pouring money into the bond markets and continue to raise interest rates as central banks all across the globe have been doing. So Liz is out. We're going to have a new prime minister, Rishi Sunak, who was opposed to her plans and said so openly when they were running for party leader. He has a very different approach. He's going to have austerity measures, probably lots of cuts to government programs. Not an enviable task before him. He has incredibly high inflation in the UK. The pound is down. He's really got his work cut out for him.  

Beth [00:06:58] If you're finding your head spinning a little bit with the talk about bonds and monetary policy and central banks, we will link in the notes today our episode five Things to Know About the Federal Reserve. The Bank of England functions not identically, but similarly to the Federal Reserve. And just understanding what's happening across the world with the economy right now, I think it would be helpful to review that episode. Sarah, what do you see here that we should call out as unique to the UK before we start talking about lessons learned for us in the United States from what has unfolded?  

Sarah [00:07:35] I think it's hard to have a conversation about the the United Kingdom's economy without talking about Brexit. I think Brexit has been a strain on their economy. I think they had some structural issues before that. The financial sector as a proportion of their economy is huge, disproportionately huge. They're not producing a lot. They're trading a lot of money, but they're not producing a lot. I thought that moment when India's economy surpassed them pretty recently was pretty impactful. I think they have a lot of division inside the Conservative Party about what to do and what to do next and how to react and how to think about Brexit and the strain on the economy. And I think all that's relevant. Kwasi Kwarteng had a lot of his past history with the financial sector. There are a lot of deals struck. There's a video on Twitter where this MP was just going off and he was like...  

MP  Charles Walker [00:08:35] I'm Livid. And, you know, I really shouldn't say this, but I hope all those people that put Liz Truss in number 10, I hope it was worth it. I hope it was worth it for the ministerial red box. I hope it was worth it to sit around the cabinet table because the damage they have done to our party is extraordinary.  

Sarah [00:08:52] So I think you're inevitably going to see sort of a resurgence of the Labor Party. It's so interesting because you see just threads of some of the same things we struggle with. A disproportionately powerful financial market isolationist rhetoric that markets do not respond well to. You see inner party divisions that are more about power grabs than they are about policy. And so in some ways, it's like they're unique to the UK, yes, and also lots and lots of lessons for us to learn.  

Beth [00:09:25] When I think about those lessons, the first one that comes to mind for me is very relevant to the way the midterm elections are being covered here in the United States. I am seeing so many pieces uncritically writing about how voters trust Republicans more on the economy. And I understand why because I also had a 401(k) during the Trump years, and for a while it looked pretty awesome on paper. If you had any kind of investment assets and you watched them grow during the Trump years, I understand why you might think that cut taxes, unleash private industry, grow everything as big as you can grow it approach is just what we need now. As I am feeling the pinch of gas prices and I am seeing my investments perform much, much, worse. I think that The New York Times did a good job summarizing in its The Morning newsletter, I think it was last week, that inflation is such a challenging problem and it is a problem that requires a completely different approach than that unleash the markets approach. When you have inflation and prices are rising, the last thing that you want to do is create more demand and a big tax cut is going to put more cash into the economy for consumer spending. And our supply side is still recovering from the pandemic. And you're just going to make that mismatch between demand and supply worse in a way that will keep prices escalating.  

[00:11:04] That is why the bond market, as Sarah was describing, freaked out when Liz Truss proposed doing a lot of what Republicans are proposing continuing to do here in the United States. One of Kevin McCarthy's articulated policy proposals is to make the Trump 2017 tax cuts permanent. You don't want to make things permanent around the economy because you need the ability to react to forces beyond your control, and you need tools that you can bring to different situations. This has been a real learning for me over time because I was very much of the mindset that lowering the tax burden and freeing up private investment to make the economy harm was like always a good strategy. And what I've seen over time is that Trump used all those tools to kind of their maximum degree at a time when the economy was in really good shape. And that has certainly contributed to where we are today. It's not the only factor, but it is certainly contributed to that. And now we're looking around and we have used a lot of those tools and we need some of them to help us. And they're kind of out and we're in a new position with fewer options available to us because we just slammed the accelerator down to the floor at a time when the economy was doing well.  

Sarah [00:12:31] Remember he just wanted in to drop that interest rate, drop that interest rate, and drop that interest rate. Look, the similarities are important. And also, let's not forget, it's much more dangerous when we play with these things because we are the global currency. So I think it is frustrating. I understand intimidation from discussions around monetary policy, but when we want to talk about elections and we want to talk about civic duty, I really think it's important for us to understand this stuff because when it is obfuscated either purposely oraccidentally from us, we miss the bigger picture. And we think that the Republicans in the state of Kentucky can hold a press conference and blame our governor for high gas prices. What are you even talking about? What are you even talking about? Because there are global forces at play here and we're behind a lot of them because of the power and influence we hold in the global economy, despite the fact that our central bank is just tasked with a singular vision of watching out for us, even though we all know it affects everything. And so I just think it's frustrating. It's so frustrating when I see that reporting and this sort of not just simplistic, but incredibly short sighted understanding of the economy and the role the party in power and the president play in the economy, which is both paradoxically around some things not very powerful and around other things incredibly powerful. If the Republicans do what they are promising to do, which is to use the debt ceiling as a negotiation tactic, they are playing with fire. They should look and shake in their boots and what happened in the U.K.. And clearly they're not because Nancy Mace just went on morning TV and said, "I'm committed to Kevin McCarthy's plan to use the debt ceiling as a negotiation tactic."  You're you're watching what's playing out in the U.K. and you're thinking, yeah, that's the way to go, is to spook the markets that are already in a pretty, pretty, scary place.  

Beth [00:14:46] My dad had this great expression about a former governor of Kentucky, Matt Bevin. He said that Bevin would always look at a problem and think, I'm going to bring a chainsaw instead of a scalpel to this problem. And whether we think it should be this way or not, we are in a position now where the global economy functions like a body and you cannot say, well, the United States is just the left leg. We're going to cut it off and do what's best for the left leg without affecting everything else. And that's why we're sitting here talking about the U.K., because their economy absolutely impacts ours and especially impacts developing nations across the globe. And all of that circulates around to stay with this metaphor. And so I understand, looking at the prices of groceries and gas, looking at issues like the price of long term care for seniors, the availability of babysitters, there are so many things that are really difficult and stressful in American life right now. And I understand voters saying, you know what, where's the chainsaw? Let's just start over again. Let's try something completely new. This isn't working. I want to put something new in. And I think that we are forgetting that this economy is a patient recovering from COVID like everything else, and that some stability and some very targeted changes and patient long term therapeutic measures are needed. And some of it's going to be experimental because we tackle this problem differently than we have past recessions. We'll learn some things from that. We chose some of these problems over worse problems that we could be having now. But when you look at all of that, I am frustrated with the idea that we should just replicate the Liz Truss approach in our midterm elections because we can't change horses in a month if we don't like the effect of that.  

Sarah [00:16:47] I don't think that the UK is the only place where instability and global economic forces are coming to play. We invited Kerry Anderson back to Pantsuit Politics to talk to us about the protests in Iran, which are going on right now and are absolutely due in part to sanctions that happened before the pandemic and economic forces that have grown since the pandemic. Kerry is a writer and a political risk consultant covering U.S. foreign policy, international security issues, and Middle East politics and business risk. And she is a frequent contributor here at Pantsuit Politics. And we love having her on, and we're so pleased that she came back for another conversation around Iran. Kerry, welcome back to the show. You're our favorite expert. Well, we called you because the situation in Iran continues to escalate. Protests started over the death of Mahsa Amini and they have just continued to grow despite a pretty violent crackdown from the government. And we're always hesitant to make any conclusions without some expertize being brought in about Iran. And you said you recently just published a report on Iran and that our timing was good. So tell us your perspective on the developments there.  

Kerry Anderson [00:18:11] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's fascinating to watch. I think as somebody who's been studying the Middle East for four years and including through the Arab Spring, you know when there's a situation and things are seething, but you never know what spark is going to be. I was working on a report in September, and I think I submitted the report to the client a couple of days after my Mahsa Amini's death. And I was writing about the protests over water in one part of the country. There are protests over food prices in another part of the country. And there were some small protests because the number of political executions has gone up in the last year, and for the President Raisi. And then there are a couple of small protests at the time of Mahsa Amini and you just never know what is a spark that's going to happen. And in this case, it was her death. I think her particular case touched some really raw nerves in Iranian society. So I don't think it's surprising that that was the spark, but [Inaudible] I think probably all analysts have learned don't predict what the spark is going to be.  

Sarah [00:19:20] Right.  

Beth [00:19:21] It's a historic lesson too. I think that's why we've been so hesitant to talk about this without your expertize in the larger context, because you're never writing on a blank canvas when something resonates to this degree. For people who have not followed this closely, can you just talk through her death and how it landed on a larger framework?  

Kerry Anderson [00:19:41] Yeah, absolutely. So Mahsa Amini, I believe her Kurdish name is Jina Amini. Very young woman who's just 22. She was from the Kurdistan region of Iran. She was visiting family in Tehran when she was taken by the morality police, a specific kind of division of the police to primarily enforce the hijabi. And so making sure a woman is appropriately covered under Iranian rules. And they arrested her. She was wearing a headscarf, but they apparently didn't think it was good enough. They arrested her. It is hard to know exactly what happened, but reports suggest that basically that they banged her head against something repeatedly and that within a couple of hours she had fallen into a coma and died a couple days later. The regime said that she died from a heart attack due to preexisting health condition. Nobody's buying that. And, in fact, since the protest many other people died. But there was particularly two young women who were killed and the regimes said they jumped off roofs. Again, nobody believes that. Part of the regime's problem is they're just at a point where nobody believes them anymore. So there were initially some small protests in Tehran and in her hometown in Kurdistan, the Kurdistan province of Iran. And then those just spread. And I think because it definitely is adding to this existing [Inaudible]. I think her death in particular touched on two raw nervers. One, being the oppression of women in Iran. And a lot of Iranian women are well-educated, modern women, and yet they're forced to live under this these particular rules. So we can get into that more. I think the whole issue of the hijab as a symbol is just a huge issue here. And I want to be clear, the mandatory hijab. The issue here is that the government requires women to wear this. So that was one of their raw nerves. And the other raw nerve is that she was Kurdish.  

Sarah [00:21:57] Yeah, that's what I was going to ask. How much did that play a role?  

Kerry Anderson [00:21:59] I think it does play a role. And I've heard some experts say, "Oh, no, the issue around ethnic minorities is not an issue here." I think it is an issue here. It is not the issue, but is an issue. It's  important to note that many, many, Persians (which is the largest ethnic group in Iran) are involved in the protest too. But there are particular ethnic minorities and in particular I think the the Kurds and the Arabs and the Balochs feel very discriminated against and oppressed. And so I think those are two raw nerves that her death touched. But then on top of that, you have years of incredibly high inflation. Iranian economies in super bad shape, youth unemployment is massively high. You also have huge problems related to government corruption and just general mismanagement. Also last few years we started seeing environmental issues be a major factor in protest. So water shortages, farms drying up, floods that people feel that the government could have managed better. Climate change plays a role in this too. And general human rights abuses too for men and women and Persians and ethnic minorities. And it's like there's this huge brew and it just all came together. And I don't think a lot of people inside Iran are shocked that this is happening. It's just we didn't know what was going to be the thing to make it happen. But I think that overall there's just this hopelessness and this complete disillusionment with the regime. This is a very young country. I think the old ideals of the Islamic revolution just don't gel with a lot of younger people today. And I think just there's a real alienation between the government and the people.  

Beth [00:24:04] That foundation really leads me to the question that I keep coming back to, which is what do the protesters want? Is it a change in leadership or is it a change in structure? Or is it just to be heard that none of this is acceptable to them and we don't have kind of an alternative plan? What are they looking for?  

Kerry Anderson [00:24:24] Yeah, this is the tricky part. So I think they have been very clear that they don't just want reform any more. I think the Iranian people are done with the idea that, well, if we just had some economic reforms, we just loosened things up a bit. I think these are very clearly anti-government-- I mean, in terms of slogans, we are hearing the death to the dictator slogans. You're also, I think, very interestingly, hearing the woman life freedom slogan. So that's kind of a more kind of a positive in terms of not just against something, but for something. But what does it mean to be for a woman life freedom? This to me feels like a guttural cry from Iranian society, especially young Iranians and just being, like, this is not okay. Like, we're not happy. We're not getting anywhere. But one of the big points of caution for people who might be hoping that this is the start of a successful revolution, this really wonderful democracy, is there's no clear leader. There's no clear agenda. And I think that's always kind of on the Arab Spring too, is just this kind of guttural cry and then they overthrow the regime. But then what? Then who's the leader? Who is the agenda? How do we redo an entirely new structure? And we're not there yet.  

Sarah [00:25:50] What lessons do you take from other countries in the Arab Spring? I don't know Tunisia was the closest to democratic reform and now their prime minister has suspended the parliament and taken control of some sort of constitutional reforms. Is there any model to look to? Is there any example?  

Kerry Anderson [00:26:07] It's hard. I think we can look at the Arab Spring. I think we can even look at revolutions more generally. Some of the Iranian activists are looking at some of the color revolutions of Eastern Europe. I think we need to remember in terms of the scholarship on revolutions, most revolutions fail. So statistically speaking, we need to keep that in mind. I also would say Iran did have a successful revolution in 1979, so the Iranian people do now it is in theory possible to overthrow your leadership. They've done it before. But there's several things. One is what do we mean by revolution? Does a military coup count as a revolution? I don't think it would work for the protesters because that's not what they want. Is a revolution the complete overthrow of the existing regime? And then what? And so if we look at the 1979 Iranian revolution, you had multiple people who were involved in that. You have the clerics and those who wanted an Islamic regime. Ayatollah Khamenei definitely played a role in that. But you also had communists, you had Democrats, you had secularists, you had lots of different people. They overthrew the Shah and then they had their own mini war among themselves that then those who were the Islamic regime won. And the Arab Spring, we've kind of seeing a different story where people overthrew the governments. But then, for example, in Egypt you get the Muslim Brotherhood and then the military overthrew them. In Syria, you end up with the massive, horrific civil war, which is a possibility in Iran. We can talk about scenarios. That is a potential scenario. So it's hard because there are some places in Eastern Europe where you can have successful revolutions that produce something better. That is not the way most revolutions in history have gone. Sometimes it is, like in the United States, but that is not something that we should assume or rely on.  

Sarah [00:28:13] Well, speaking of the United States, how should we think about this as Americans? I mean, I think that there is analysis. I was reading very similar analysis about Haiti. That stay out of it. Interfering never helps. Although, I have to say, Iran is not staying out of things. They are sending drones to Russia to drop on Ukraine. So it's not like America is the only government that goes out there and interferes and plays a role in other countries conflicts. But how should we think about this as Americans?  

Kerry Anderson [00:28:47] Yeah, well, I personally think the Biden administration has done a good job so far in terms of the government response. President Obama had a lot of criticism in 2009 for not immediately backing the Green Movement, but he had some good reasons why he didn't do that. I did see that very recently. I think he said that that was a mistake. But the Biden administration has clearly learned from that, and they were very quick to express their support for the protests and condemnation of the government. In a speech to the U.N. in September, Biden specifically stated that pretty much all of our senior foreign policy officials have stated that some of them have met with Iranian civil rights activists. So I think that is important that we are clear and providing that we stand with them. In terms of practical measures, the Biden administration has put some sanctions on specific entities and individuals in Iran who are involved in human rights abuses, and also involved in shutting down the Internet and disrupting the Internet in Iran. I think the most important step that they have taken is they have actually loosened some of our sanctions that might have prevented technology companies from providing services to Iranians because the Iranian regime has-- I don't think they completely shut down the Internet in this case, but they have significantly disrupted mobile cell access. They have blocked WhatsApp and Instagram. They've taken other steps to try to really restrict access to the Internet. And so the Biden administration is really trying to encourage our own technology companies to do what they can to provide that access. So I think that's really important. Beyond that, there are people who would call on the U.S. government to do a lot more. I am a little skeptical of some of those. I think that the administration beyond that is probably right to kind of sit back. Let the Iranian people do what they want to do. We provide support, but I don't think we should be directly interfering. There's a lot of risks that would come with that. We could undermine the protest movement by doing that.  

Sarah [00:31:06] Well, and I assume they're still trying to reach a nuclear deal. Where is that?  

Kerry Anderson [00:31:11] On the nuclear deal, I actually have an article coming out about that today. But essentially on the nuclear deal, the Biden administration I think right now is taking a wait and see approach. So they are saying we still support this deal, but that deal was seriously stalled even before the protest happened. And I think their approach has been this is not the right moment to be really pushing ahead with that. So there are some people who want them to just completely halt that. But most of those people were people who didn't support the JCPOA in the first place. What I'm seeing from Iranian activists so far is that they want solidarity with them. They want help with Internet access. And most of them are going to be saying can we just kind of like hold off on the JCPOA right now? And I think that's what the U.S. government right now is doing. And I think as Americans to what extent we can-- I know it seems very small, but expressing solidarity with them, remembering the names of Mahsa Amini and the other women who have died, and this expressing our admiration and support for these incredibly brave people are doing. It feels small, but I think right now that's the right thing to do.  

Beth [00:32:25] When you make the list of reasons that Iran would get involved in Ukraine, how does that stack up with what the government is dealing with inside their own country? And where else in the world are we seeing Iran engaged? I see so much emphasis right now in the foreign policy journalism world on Africa. And I wonder if there's a tie to terrorism in Africa with Iran. Just what all goes on the whiteboard when the Biden administration is deciding how hard we push and how much we stay out of it?  

Kerry Anderson [00:33:00] Yeah. I mean, the Iranian regime is quite active anywhere where-- primarily they're I think kind of stick it to the United States or Saudi Arabia or whoever they try to do that. So they've always been very active in supporting Hezbollah in Lebanon. They've been very, very, active in supporting some Shia groups in Iraq. They have provided support to the Houthis and Yemen. They are somewhat engaged in Africa. The data I've seen on that is really controversial. But certainly they have had some involvement, particularly where they can use links with Shia communities. And they've been involved in Afghanistan. They kind of are involved in lots different places. I think the situation of Ukraine is very interesting because at the start of Russia's invasion of Ukraine, this latest invasion in 2022, Iran was trying to remain pretty neutral. They had relations with Ukraine. They had relations with Russia. They were trying to remain generally neutral. You can kind of see in their UN votes, for example. But that changed over the summer. Over the summer it became very clear that the supreme leader and other Iranian leaders were just completely throwing their lot in with the Russians. And that certainly includes providing these drones, these armed drones to Russia, which Russia has been using in Ukraine, specifically against civilian targets. And we can remember, too, that Iran and Russia were both involved in the war in Syria in supporting the Assad regime. I would not consider them close allies. I think there is a very pragmatic relationship. But right now they have worked together in Syria, they've worked together in Ukraine. They are both, I think, together in the most sanctioned countries in the world. Maybe North Korea is in there too. So they are definitely kind of making common cause. And that was not a given at the start of the war, but certainly they're fully in bed now.  

Beth [00:35:14] Well, Kerry, it is always helpful to talk with you and to get that larger context. And I really appreciate the call to action to just be supportive (to the extent that we can) of the young people, the women and the folks who for a long time in Iran have been saying to their regime, "You do not represent us." I wish there were a neater answer that got us closer to something that looked like a peaceful, prosperous Iran with a good relationship with the United States. But it is very helpful to have all of the benefit of your wisdom. So thank you for spending time with us.  

Kerry Anderson [00:35:49] Thank you so much. I think this is such an important issue and I think we're all very inspired by what we're seeing among the Iranian people. I just think we need to keep in mind, it's messy, it's complicated. It will be messy. It will be complicated, but we'll see what happens. And always a pleasure to talk with you both. And congratulations on seven years. It's very exciting.  

Sarah [00:36:09] Thank you.  

Beth [00:36:11] Thank you, Kerry. Thank you Kerry for joining us, as always, and helping make some sense of some incredibly complex issues that are very important to us, not just as Americans, but also as citizens of the world who are subject to these trends and who are interested in seeing people everywhere be freer. Up next, we will end, as we always do, by talking about what's on our minds Outside Politics. Sarah, I'm going to need a little group therapy today Outside of Politics, because since February my children have been preparing me for the fact that we are not going to do a family costume this year. We have done family costumes their entire lives. And here at the ripe ages of 11 and seven, they have decided they want to strike out in their own directions. I am both proud of them and very, very, sad.  

Sarah [00:37:11] I ashamed mine into compliance for a little bit longer. It was a real loose theme last year. Last year it was just our favorite TV show characters. Our costumes definitely didn't go together. So I guess our last fully compatible theme was actually when I guess Griffin was 11 and Amos was seven. I don't like it. I don't like it because it feels unfair to Felix, because I feel like Felix got less of a run and he loves it. He just loves it. Again, this one is even looser. This one is a true stretch. Last year I would have defended our favorite TV show characters. I thought it worked. This year we're doing our favorite singers, obviously, because Felix is obsessed with Elvis. And my mom told Griffin and Amos that they could be Harry Styles because Harry Styles wears whatever he wants. So if you ask them, they'll be like, "I'm Harry Styles." But they're not. Griffin's some internet cartoon character. Amos is an anime character. I will say that we have had a recent development. We were talking about this, we were talking about how sad it is not to have family costumes. And by sad, I mean sad for me. And I got a begrudging agreement from Griffin and Amos that next year we could do Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles because it is a tragedy to not do that in our family. Have you seen April recently? Have you looked at a drawing of April from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles recently? We look exactly alike. So I made a strong pitch of, like, "You guys cannot take this from me. There are four of you. I look just like April." And Griffin was like, "Fine, okay. Next year we'll do Teenage Ninja Turtles, but then that's it for real." And I was like, okay, fine. So I'm going to squeak out one more year I think. I should have made them sign something, but that's where we're at.  

Beth [00:38:56] I love that journey for you. I loved that movie when I was in school. There was a group of boys that always wanted to play Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles in the gym when I was in elementary school, and they always recruited me to be April and I really dug that role. Serving pizzas to people for play is like very much the Enneagram two's ideal recess. So I'm excited for you about that. I think we're probably done here. Jane and Ellen are very different humans and have very different ideas about who they want to be. Jane in particular is so into watching Pinterest videos about-- makeup is probably a weak term to describe what she likes. She likes the artistry of using one's face as a canvas. And so her interest here was really on a costume that allowed her to have fun with eyeliner. And that's fine. But that's not where Ellen's going to be for a long time. So I am just going to put on like a cozy sweater and probably a vest.  

Sarah [00:39:57] You're not even going to wear a costume?  

Beth [00:39:59] I'm going to wear a costume. I'm going to sit by the fire and hand out the candy and try to be as gracious and supportive about this as I can. Even though I feel neither gracious nor supportive, I want to be, like, "Why are you doing this to me? This has been so fun."  

Sarah [00:40:16] It has. Listen, our family costumes are baller. I will not be humble about it. We have had some very strong years. But forget them, nicholas will keep dressing up with me. So we will keep dressing up. We will keep dressing up, and I'm sure Felix will still stay in it with us for a while too because he really does love it. And we're recycling our costume from last year for the Halloween party that friends of ours throw every year. And I might keep that cycle going. Whatever I wore on Halloween day I wear to the party next year and just keep doing it on down. I love dressing up. You're not going to stop me from dressing up you spoilt, spoilt, children.  

Beth [00:40:48] Chad would absolutely dress up with me too. We talked about trying to do Paul and Prue from the Great British Bake Off. We decided too late wait for him to grow a good beard to be Paul. So we're going to keep that in our mind. I think we'll probably dress up again someday. This year it just felt important to me to be like, Beth, just fully embrace this. Just go with it completely. Don't don't ease off. Just be like, okay, you have your moment. And I think that they-- this is my secret manipulative side. I think they'll probably be sad that we aren't dressed up.  

Sarah [00:41:19] They are definitely sad. Last year when it was not quite as tight, they were a little sad. And I definitely I'm like it's not fair. Again, it's not fair to Felix. You got to do it for 11 years. He's only seven years old and he loves it. Why would you take this from him? So I will shame them about things that don't matter like Halloween costumes. I'm not sorry at all.  

Beth [00:41:38] I just want them to remember this fondly and to remember us having fun together. It is so easy to be so serious as a parent and I am working really hard in every area of my life to bring more playfulness to it. And this has just been such a delightfully playful way to be together as a family. So we'll have a good Halloween, but it is going to be really different.  

Sarah [00:42:01] I don't want to overplay my hand here, but my Halloween costume this year is amazing. I can't wait for everybody see it, but I'm going to keep it a secret here on the podcast today and make you wait.  

Beth [00:42:12] I can't wait. I'm excited. Well, thank you all so much for joining us today. We would love again for you to post four times about today's episode or any episode of Pantsuit Politics that you enjoy. And you can do that in a way that meets you where you are. You can comment on our post here on episode, in your feed or stories, and as a tweet, do a TikTok dance-- in whatever way you enjoy doing. And we will see you back here on Friday. Until then, have the best week available to you.  

[00:42:58] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:43:04] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:43:10] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers (Read their own names) [00:43:14] Martha Brzonitsky. Linda Daniel. Allie Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holliday. Katie Johnson. Katina Zugenalis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Laurie LaDowl. Lily McClure. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tawni Peterson. Tracy Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stiggers. Karen True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Kathryn Vollmer. Amy Whited.  

Beth [00:43:48] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Morgan McCue. Nicole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.  


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