January 6th Hearings: Why Every American Should Watch

General George Washington Resigning His Commission by John Trumbull, oil on canvas 1824

TOPICS DISCUSSED

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EPISODE RESOURCES

January 6th Committee Hearing

Amy McGrath

TRANSCRIPT

Beth [00:00:00] Republicans are responding to this other than Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger in forums where nobody is under oath. And in forums where Kevin McCarthy, the minority leader in the House, has blatantly lied. Mm hmm. He has said things and then been contradicted by tape recordings...  

Sarah [00:00:19] Audio!  

Beth [00:00:20] ...of his words.  

Sarah [00:00:21] Yep.  

Sarah [00:00:22] There's a they're lying to you. But it is not. The House Select Committee.  

[00:00:32] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:34] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:36] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:52] Hello and thank you so much for joining us for another episode of Pantsuit Politics. If you're new here, welcome. We're so glad you're with us. We take a different approach to the news by bringing all of ourselves our a lot agrees our experiences with our family and friends and community involvement, our research and our values to our conversations as we try to make sense of the news for the month of June. We are very focused on the work of the House committee investigating January six. The first hearing took place on Thursday, June 9th. We're recording Friday morning, June 10th. We're going to discuss what we heard last night and how we're thinking about it. And then we will end, as we always do, with what's on our minds outside of politics. It's such a good one. Today we have a very special surprise guest here to join us to discuss Top Gun Maverick.  

Sarah [00:01:38] And as these hearings continue, you can follow along here on the podcast as well on Instagram and Twitter and our newsletter. We're going to be posting our takeaways. Last night we watched the hearing live with hundreds and hundreds of listeners on Hot Mike. I'm so glad we chose to do that. It was really nice to be with everybody to sort of support each other, to share our reactions, to share our questions. We will do that again on Hot Mike on June 23rd for the final primetime hearing. It was so beneficial that we're going to do it on Instagram for the daytime hearings, for anybody watching during the daytime hearings. We will get on Instagram live so that we have the chat together so that we can share reactions and sort of watch as a community. So look out for links to that and notifications about that and Instagram.  

Beth [00:02:23] So we're going to try to discuss the choices that the committee made in putting this hearing together. The key points from the hearing, the counter narrative being put forth by top Republicans and the Republican National Committee and why we think all of this matters. Up next.  

Sarah [00:02:48] Before we talk about the hearing, I want to say one thing that I think is really important. Follow me here. I just finished Chuck Klosterman book The Nineties and he talks about. In particular watching the Anita Hill and Clarence Thomas confirmation hearings about watching the OJ Simpson trial, about watching the events in Columbine, and how watching an event live can really affect our perception of it. I love this quote. He says, What happened next was a tutorial in how the first draft of history is not just incorrect, but usually more tenacious than all the improved drafts that come later. We're going to do our best to help summarize and give takeaways and share our reactions to the January six hearing. But what I want to say, what I want everyone who can hear my voice understand. You have to watch them yourselves. You have to watch the hearings yourself. I cannot emphasize enough how important I think that is. The idea that we watch the events on January six and, you know, we understand the heartbreak and we can't take it. And again, I get all that, but we don't understand the events just by watching them unfold live on TV. There is so much that is missed in that first draft of history in this committee is doing an exceptional job of putting forth that improved draft. And I think we all owe it to our country and to each other to participate in the hearings as best we can. It's 2 hours. It is difficult viewing, but I really, really think it is imperative that we all watch it.  

Beth [00:04:29] One of my favorite books about history and memory is fiction. It's Alias Grace from Margaret Atwood. In that book talks about how. The way we really understand what has happened to us is through this patchwork quilt of artifacts and individual perceptions and what gets recorded and what doesn't get recorded. And I think that the committee is trying to assemble some of that quilt for us now, because the hearing consisted of live witness testimony, video deposition testimony clips, still photos, audio and video. And the video comes from all of these different angles, security cameras, body cams that police officers. I thought that was some of the most impactful footage, seeing some of that body camera footage, what got recorded by news networks and on cell phones, the documentary filmmaker, was there some of the footage that he picked up? And so you can see them trying to assemble that quilt for us and say, we've looked at this from as many angles as we possibly can. A year or so out and after talking to thousands of people and we're trying to assemble for you the truest representation first of what took place on that day. But secondarily and just as importantly, what preceded that day and what followed.   

Sarah [00:05:47]  It was so impactful from the beginning. You know, you had the chairman, Bennie Thompson, really place what we're talking about in the history of the United States. He took us way up into the air and said, look, we are under an oath to protect against enemies, both foreign and domestic. And he talked about the Civil War and what happened after the Civil War and how we deal with sedition and how we deal with coups. And he like, you know, he took us all the way up and said, like, this is where replacing this in history. And then he sent it to Representative Liz Cheney. And she took us all the way to the ground. And she said. Over and over and over again. President Trump was the chief actor in all of this. He set the tone before he impacted the recruitment of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. He fired up the audience before with his tweet. He fired up the crowd there with his rhetoric at the speech and his dereliction of duty and not attempting at all to quell the insurrection once it had started. She just put all of that together. So I thought that contrast of like, let us take you way up high and show you why this is important. And let us take you down here on the ground and show you why President Trump is at the center of all of it. And that danger remains was so well done. When I say we have to watch this, let me tell you, I'm not asking you to sit and watch hours of boring testimony. This is an incredible, incredible attempt to put all these pieces of evidence together in a way that is engaging and impactful to say, like, let us we're not trying to just talk at you. We're trying to show you what happened. They're using testimony from Trump advisers who said we told him that he lost. He understood that he had lost. He knew that that was the reality they're putting together. I thought it wasn't just the body cam footage that was impactful, but those sort of the high up camera. So you could see the size of the crowd and the surging of the crowd on the Capitol grounds. I mean, the way that they have put this evidence together, this is evidence. This is not propaganda. This is not a political narrative. This is evidence of a coup and they have put it together in really the tightest package possible for the American people. And I just I mean, it was incredibly done and incredibly impactful. We were gasping. I wept at one point and cried in more than one point. Like, it's difficult but essential what they are doing right now.  

Beth [00:08:16] I agree that it is put together in a way that is accessible and that lacks some of the dryness and like pomp and circumstance of the type of congressional hearing that you'll find on a regular day on C-SPAN. At the same time, it is still a committee hearing, and the vibe is very understated. There is a narrative being pumped out right now via top Republicans. The Wall Street Journal Opinion Page, your random relative on Facebook who thinks everything connected to Joe Biden is the worst. The narrative is that this is all for show. It's for entertainment. It's to distract from real issues. It's to sway the midterm elections in a particular direction. What I think came across last night is that this is very much not for show or for entertainment. It is a committee hearing. Evidence is entered into the record according to certain rules. And Liz Cheney and Representative Thompson fielded the entire hearing themselves. Not a single other member of the committee spoke. It was tightly managed and controlled and choreographed to an extent, but not in a showbiz way. You still had to pay attention to it. It was very understated, even as they're putting some really hard messages into very clear relief. Their tone was somber and serious and searching. And so I just really struggle with people saying, like, well, this is just a performance. If it were just a performance, it would feel quite different than it did. They know that people's opinion about this is pretty hardened. They also know that what they're doing will matter ten years from now and I think are approaching it with an appropriately dignified. Manner.  

Sarah [00:10:09] What I was convinced of after watching it is that their approach is not about political opinion at all. Their approach is about establishing criminality so that charges can be placed. And I think that Liz Cheney's goal is that charges go to President Trump. That's what I am convinced of after watching the first hearing.  

Beth [00:10:22] What about you? I think they are certainly laying the groundwork for criminality. I think also they are trying to establish a congressional record that will lead to legislative action. I think the primary audience here might in some ways and should appropriately be their fellow members of Congress. I was saying to our our listeners on Hot Mic last night, I think there are lots of layers here. You hope for political accountability, right? You hope that the public sees this and at least holds the people who are directly involved and responsible and derelict in their duties accountable at the ballot box. You could absolutely see the Department of Justice building on this work to establish direct individual criminal liability for a whole host of actors and a whole host of charges. But I think you can also see legislative accountability in the form of changes to the Electoral Count Act at the bare minimum, and some accountability around committee membership security clearances, perhaps like really questioning the colleagues who were involved in this and who continue to lie about what happened. You need to convince other members of Congress, like some of us are not here abiding by our oath. What are we going to do about that?  

Sarah [00:11:37] There is no doubt in my mind that Representative Cheney is absolutely speaking to many of her Republican colleagues. She said it clearly. She said...  

Liz Cheney [00:11:45] "Tonight, I say this to my Republican colleagues who are defending the indefensible. There will come a day when Donald Trump is gone, but your dishonor will remain."  

Sarah [00:11:56] In some ways, I think, you know, drawing on the historical example of the O.J. Simpson trial, even the Johnny Depp Amber Heard Giles, God Save Me is important because there is a feeling, even in a legal proceeding when it goes on television. And I think some of the you know. Smartest strategies. If you're a client, you want your client to win. And the grossest. Sort of energy we all react to in those moments are, you know, defense attorneys that just muck it up enough that we forget while we're there. Right. We just they distract and they muck it up enough that you can't figure out what's going on and you just feel gross for watching. That is not the vibe here, because as we talked about on our Five Things episode, there are no minority members. They are just to do that, just to just to give you this feeling of like this is a circus. And so it's not important. That's not what's happening here. This is not a congressional circus. Bills feels very much to me like we are going to lay out the evidence. We are establishing criminality. We are stabilizing the central role. Former President Donald Trump played in trying to subvert the results of the election like this. Just they are laying it out in a very methodical, very evidence based way. It does not feel like any other congressional hearing I've ever watched. It feels very much like they understand the importance. And it's almost like. I think they very much want the American people to watch and be impacted. But it also feels to me like. That that is not their primary goal. Their goal is to lay out the evidence that results and charges or legislative and policy changes, but just to to not distract from like this is what happened. He did not concede for the first time in American history. And then we almost had an overthrow of our democratically elected government like and you know, I think back to how I felt at the time and that sort of first draft and I think the first draft that lives in my mind. Is that? He was who he was, that he was bad, that he could not accept the results, and that it was this intense emotionality that bubbled up and affected the people there. And I think if I'm being honest, I told myself there was a lot of like it got out of control. Right. Because that's what you watched on the day on the television screen. You watched and you just felt like this got it just kept going and kept going. And it got out of control. And even as someone who's like really been engaged with the material and who watch it so closely that day. This committee immediately just short circuited that. I just felt like from the second it started, they were like, this was not something that just got out of control. This was planned. This was a part of a plan to keep him president even though he lost the election. Does the ways in which. It started so far before that day. It went so much further than we could understand watching on our screens on January six. And it continued after that day. It cannot. Be underestimated or under emphasized. And I think they are doing such an incredible job of, like you said, putting those pieces together and laying them out emphatically and clearly and in an understandable way.  

Beth [00:15:43] Before we talk about all those pieces, I want to say one more thing about this idea that there isn't a counter-narrative being perpetuated among the committee members. We talked about this in our five things episode, but I just want to emphasize it again. This is a bipartisan committee, and the members of this committee are not in agreement about what happens after this hearing. There are arguments happening among these committee members about what comes next, especially legislatively, which is the one thing that matters really to them, because that's their job. That's what they're there to do. And it's just such a good illustration of this really simple idea that seems to be lost to us as Americans, that we can disagree about the appropriate action steps while being honest about the problem. This committee can say we don't agree about what happens next, but that doesn't mean we're going to lie about the facts. We agree that the facts need to come out whatever they are, and then we make our best case for what you do with the facts. And I just. Feel very hopeful that that's unfolding this way, even as there's a lot to not feel hopeful about in the Republican reaction to this. There are at least two Republicans on this committee and a range of Democrats in terms of their opinions and ideologies. And all of them are saying, whatever else, we're going to start with what's real and we're not going to spin it. We're not going to whitewash any of it. We're just going to lay it out and look at it. And then we'll make our best cases for what comes next. I think that's really hopeful. So there you were talking about that first draft. I also had a sense that some people like stumbled into insurrection on January 6th, that they came, they watched a speech. They walked over there checking it out. And then things get out of control. And I think what the evidence showcased during this hearing helped me better understand. And I mean, I've read a lot of the the court documents in cases where people are being tried for this. But it helped me understand that you had people there who had been planning this for a long time, and they understood how to use the bystanders. They understood that, okay, we're going to breach at this access point where people are naturally going to wander after Trump's speech. And I think maybe I have had some sense of that for a while, but it became clear to me, yes, some people stumbled into this, but other people knew that would happen and orchestrated it so that they would to increase the power of the crowd and the confusion of the situation and the difficulty for law enforcement.  

Sarah [00:18:25] And one of those people was Donald Trump. He understood what he was saying at the debate when he said, stand back and stand by to the proud boys and the Oath Keepers. They put up video that said that their recruitment had increased by threefold after he said that in the debate. He understood what he was doing when he put a tweet that said, be there. It's going to be wild. He knew exactly what was going to happen when he stood up in front of that crowd and said, you have to be strong. You can't be weak in order to take back our democracy. And not only that, when the impact was clear for everyone, he did nothing. He didn't call the National Guard. He said that if Mike Pence got hung, then maybe that's what needed to happen. I mean, it's just putting it all together because I think at the in the moment, it's so painful. It's so hard to look. Straight at the fact that he didn't concede, that he knew he'd lost and he tried to stay president anyway. It's just so hard, I think, you know, it came crashing down on me in the hearing when Liz Cheney said, like, look at our rotunda and look at the SWAT teams in that rotunda. And I just started weeping because I walked through that rotunda a hundred times. I gave tour after tour and I walked through it. And I and I talked about our democracy. And I pointed to that portrait of George Washington. And handing over his commission. And my sort of emotional attachment to that building in itself is is a reflection of my patriotism. It's because I do love this country and I do want to live in a free society where people respect the results of the election. And it's hard it's so hard to just face the facts openly and as they're happening in the moment and bit by bit. It feels so crushing. And I understand the instinct to say, like, I get it, I can't watch this anymore. But the way that they're putting it together to say, no, it's not that simple. It's it's it's worse than that. It was a conspiracy at the highest level. We have to face that. We have to face that. And if you know Representative Cheney can. Sit up there and do that. Understanding the political ramifications, understanding the risk to to her own security. Even at one moment, the documentary filmmaker said. I'm here under the subpoena, the committee. And it was just that reminder of like he's sending a message. I didn't come and turn in these very violent people because I feel like it. I understand the risks to my personal safety, to my family's safety by being here. I was doing it because I was required by law and then to know that representatives who put their hand on the Bible and swear an oath to the Constitution can't do the same is so infuriating. You know, you can feel it radiating from Liz Cheney. And I don't blame her because an oath has to mean something. It has to mean something. And Donald Trump took an oath. All those members of Congress took an oath, and they violated that oath. And there must must be accountability for that.  

Beth [00:21:41] In terms of it being more complex than what we saw on January six. And The Atlantic had a really great piece about how January six is a dangerous shorthand, because sometimes when we use Watergate, we're just thinking about the break in at the hotel. And if we say January six, we're just thinking about the attack on the Capitol. And it is much more than that. And so as they started to tell us about the much more and we're going to get the details of this over the next hearings, last night was just a roadmap. But what the committee is really emphasizing is number one. Trump knew that he lost the election and knew that the arguments to the contrary were being made in bad faith. And they allowed Trump's people to tell that story, starting with former Attorney General Bill Barr, who said, I told the president it was bullshit. I told him I didn't want to have anything to do with it. I told him that these theories were bogus, that I saw nothing credible to suggest that the election had been stolen or even had significant irregularities. They showed Ivanka Trump saying, I respected Bill Barr and what he said meant something to me and I accepted what he said. I guessed. We all gasp. They showed one of the data people on the campaign talking about how he briefed everyone that there wasn't a path, that it was over. So piece number one, he knew and still spent, as they emphasized, millions of campaign funds advertising that the election had been stolen, which I think could potentially set up some forms of civil liability. At least they set up that piece and then they talk about the communication with groups like Proud Boys Oath Keepers. Then they talk about the events of the day and how Trump never called for the National Guard. Only Mike Pence was able to activate support for the Capitol Police.  

Sarah [00:23:37] Lots of mention around the 25th Amendment at that point.  

Beth [00:23:39] Yes. And then and then sort of the reaction to things including and I just thought this was really salient. Text messages between Sean HANNITY and Kayleigh MCENANY. Kayleigh MCENANY was at that point, I think still the press secretary and Sean HANNITY is saying to her, here's the play now. No more stolen election talk, no more crazy people. So even Sean HANNITY is characterizing that folks pushing this stolen election narrative as crazy people, which I think says a lot about what he thinks of his audience and a lot about what he what standards he imposes for the material broadcast on his show. But they're just they're showing you that, like at every step somebody was saying to Trump, stop. And through and including today, he has not stopped. His reaction to these hearings continues to perpetuate this idea that the election was stolen. And so that case shows us that January six is not contained to the many, many hours that were brutally violent at the Capitol. And that was part of the testimony to establishing this was not peaceful. This was not no big deal. This was not a relatively minor riot, that this was gruesome in the violence. But but it is not just those hours of gruesome violence. It is all that came before and all that has unfolded after. We're going to take a quick break and come back and talk about the Republican counter-narrative and why we think all of this matters. So, Sarah, after we watched the hearing last night, you said, I think we should watch a little bit of Tucker Carlson, which is a sentence I didn't expect to hear from you, but we did the.  

Sarah [00:25:40] Entire time as we were watching the hearing. You know, I know we've all been, you know, flippant and cynical about Fox News decision not to broadcast the hearing. But I am worried about that. I am very worried about that. I am worried because I can't stop thinking about the expert in Russia talking about like it is the vibe of the news that teaches people what's important. And if every news channel is not disrupting their coverage for something this important, then some people are going to get the message that it's not important. It is important. And you know how you know that Fox News knows it's important is that not only did they broadcast Tucker Carlson show, but they broadcast it uninterrupted. No commercials. They left millions of dollars on the table out of the fear that perhaps during that next Mypillow ad, somebody might flip the channels and check out what's going on in these hearings. What does that tell you? I could almost not sleep. I was so mad after he watched Tucker Carlson's intro to his show. He basically accused the entire committee of lying. He said he didn't basically accuse them. He did. He said, they're lying to you. And then he lied. And then he lists all these conspiracy theories that you can disprove with one Google search, you know, and he lists them. So Rapid fire. Well, Ray Epps was there. Why isn't he arrested? Well, I went open the tab. I Googled Ray Epps. I immediately found it exactly what happened in that video that he spreads around and says like, Oh, so many questions. He slows down with this sort of rapid fire stuff that, when you put it all together, sounds impactful. But with one Google search, he's a nobody there had firearms. That's not true. That's not true. Now, the FBI did not arrest anyone or confiscate firearms that day, but other law enforcement people did. And it's just all this stuff. And I thought, how can you sleep at night? How can you sleep at night? Just getting on television and lying straight to people's face and implying that this committee in the halls of Congress is just making stuff up when you know you're doing the exact thing you're accusing them of doing. And it's just it's all what they're doing today. Deflection, deflection, deflection. This doesn't matter. Inflation matters that he literally went from inflation to nuclear war to your kids might not give you grandchildren. It is a thing he listed as like what people are concerned about and they have a right to be concerned. Talked all the time about vandalism. Yeah, I'm sure you want to emphasize vandalism. You don't want people switching channels during a commercial break and listening to that Capitol Police officer talk about slipping in her colleagues blood and the chaos and the carnage and that she felt like she was an open combat. Now, you don't want people to hear that because the word you're using with extra emphasis is vandalism. Like it's just. Infuriating on a level. It's like it's like that. It's like I has said about Trump, it's so hard to look straight in the face at what they're doing because it is angering. It is heartbreaking. It is scary. It is scary that this man that has an audience of millions and millions of people. Just gets up there and lies to them about our democracy. It is so so scary.  

Beth [00:29:08] When I was in law school, my contracts professor Professor Graham would say, if you cannot summarize your argument in a simple declarative sentence, you're wrong and you need to go back to the drawing board. And that's what I think about Tucker Carlson. He cannot summarize his argument in a simple, declarative sense.  

Sarah [00:29:23] You don't think it's they're lying to you?  

Beth [00:29:25] Well, I think they're lying to you. Maybe does it. But to tell us anything more than that opinion, it has to be a mix, a grab bag of nuclear war and inflation and guns, gas prices worsen and gas prices. And the fact that your kids are never going to give you grandchildren, which was found in the mix of this monologue, I mean, it's bananas. And I don't even know how to begin to, in good faith, try to engage with everything he throws into this stew of misdirection. But that's clearly what it is. And that's clearly why Fox doesn't want you watching. It became even clearer to me why Fox doesn't want you watching when I when I saw Sean HANNITY text messages on the screen. So, you know, beyond Fox, which I think has such an interest in these hearings, is so conflicted as to these hearings. You know, you see one of the Republican House committees tweeting that this is Republicans on one of the House committees, tweeting that this is all old news, as though what happened just a year ago after a thorough investigation couldn't possibly matter. Today, you hear people saying this is all about influencing the upcoming election. I just want to remind everybody again, I said this on the five things. I said it on Twitter. I'm probably going to put it on my tombstone. Republicans are responding to this other than Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger in forums where nobody is under oath. And in forums where Kevin McCarthy, the minority leader in the House, has blatantly lied. Mm hmm. He has said things and then been contradicted by talking according to his word. Yep. So that is not a credible narrator.  

Sarah [00:31:15] There's a they're lying to you, but it is not the House Select Committee.  

Beth [00:31:18] That's correct. That's correct. And I just I just want to constantly keep in mind, when Republicans talk to the media, they have decided that there are no stakes attached to that whatsoever, because even if you get caught lying to the media, then everybody goes, yeah, the media deserves to be lied to. And so there's just they have no incentive to tell the truth about any of this if they've decided it doesn't matter and are trying to convince you that it doesn't matter.  

Sarah [00:31:43] And if you have family members and friends that are trying to engage with you, I really would encourage you to watch the 10 minutes of Tucker Carlson. Just watch what he does so that you can understand what they're taking in. And I would say I watched it and I Googled report. That's not true. I Googled the firearms claim. That's not true. There is someone lying to you, but it is not the House Select Committee. It is Tucker Carlson. He has a financial interest. A huge financial interest. And you not watching the committee hearings and ask yourself why they would leave millions and millions of dollars on the table by not putting an ad breaks. If it's not that important, if it was just a random day of vandalism, why are their actions so far out of their ordinary course of business? That's what I would ask.  

Beth [00:32:31] Yeah, because the other choice they could have made, in addition to having a normal broadcast without breaks, is to cover something else. Because they. This really doesn't matter. Yeah, that's that's all garbage. And so tonight we're going to focus on gas prices because that's what's really important. But they didn't do that. No, they they counterprogramming it. And then I think the next thing, if you have it in you, and I hope some of you will, is to say, okay, I watch this because I care about you and what you're seeing now. I want you to watch the next hearing with me. Mm hmm. Or I want you to go back and watch this one. Or I want you to watch just the ten minute video footage from that day so you can see that it was not a mostly peaceful demonstration.  

Sarah [00:33:09] Yeah. Even if people if you can get someone to watch that fatigue, there were a couple of video footage packages. The one about the Oath Keepers and the Proud Boys is incredibly powerful the way that they show their. There's video of them talking together and they're putting those pieces, which I thought was really helpful. There's a bigger video footage package, and there's a package at the end where you hear people saying, Donald Trump asked me to come over and over and over again in these arraignments and depositions. You just hear people say, he asked me to come. He asked me to come. He asked me to come.  

Deposition Excerpts [00:33:41] "What really made me want to come was the fact that, you know, I had supported Trump all that time. I did believe, you know, that the election was being stolen and Trump asked us to come. He personally asked for us to come to DC that day. And I thought for everything he's done for us, if this was the only thing he'd go ask me, I'll do it. We're going to walk down to the Capitol with you. President Trump mentioning going to the Capitol during a speech. Oh, yeah. So that's one of my disappointments, is that he was going to go go with us, that he was going to be there. I know why I was there. And that's because he called me there and he laid out what is happening in our government. He laid it out. But I remember Donald Trump telling people to be there. I mean, to support it. You mentioned the president. The president asked you, do you remember a specific message? Basically, yes. For us to tell him that these things are going to happen. What got me interested, he said, I have something very important to say on January six or something like that is what, what, what, what got me interested. Be there. You know, Trump is only asked me for two things. He asked me for my vote and he asked me to come on January 6th."  

Sarah [00:35:04] We did not get the whole picture by watching the events unfold on January six. I cannot emphasize that enough or.  

Beth [00:35:11] If not watching the first hearing. 

Sarah [00:35:12] Yes, yeah. We're not done. We're not done. There's like there's a I think they said there's a seven point plan of what Donald Trump was doing to subvert the election. And they're going to lay that out piece by piece.  

Beth [00:35:24] And we need to know all of it. We got some questions from listeners, some of which I don't think we have answers to yet, and which will unfold more over the next couple of weeks. So we'll try to come back to them. I did want to address the timing element. Someone asked, you know, is is this just political theater since it's happening during primary season, in a midterm election year, there is not ever going to be a good time for this. 

Sarah [00:35:47] Yeah, when else was it supposed to happen?  

Beth [00:35:48] There are questions about timing related to the arrest of one of the proud boy leaders, his release right before January 6th. There are questions about how long some of the folks who've been arrested in connection with January six have been incarcerated. You can read a lot into all of those things. What I will say is I think this committee decided to have these hearings now because they felt they were far along enough in their work to do it. It took a lot of time to put all of this together, and I think they felt they had done enough to be able to do it and to do it now versus October before we go vote in those midterm elections. I also think it would have been better to do it a couple of months ago if they were just thinking about timing the summer, everybody checks out. Yep. This is not an ideal time to be on your television screen for a blockbuster moment. And as to the people incarcerated related to January six. Our criminal system is terrible in so many ways and it takes too long and people stay incarcerated in conditions that are unacceptable. And that happens all day, every day. For people who weren't at the Capitol on January 6th. And so you might hear some stories about this. And I hope what you'll take from those stories is like our criminal system needs some serious rethinking. But I don't think we need to make like a conspiracy out of that. This idea that the government is actually the oppressor of these patriots who came to the Capitol disintegrates. When you listen to Officer Carolyn Edwards talk about how these people treated her as they pushed her down and she blacked out and was unconscious and later sprayed with tear gas and was slipping in her colleagues blood, as she discribed it. 

Sarah [00:37:43] Being called Nancy Pelosi's dog.  

Beth [00:37:45] And having her loyalty questioned. I mean, just it was not peaceful. I don't know how else to say that. And the people who are incarcerated are going through the normal injustices of our criminal system, not injustices tailored to them, because we're in some kind of banana republic. And so I just want to make sure we're very clear on those points. Okay, Sarah, go ahead.  

Sarah [00:38:07] I want to touch on what you said really quick about conspiracies. I think people like us and people who listen to this show have spent the past several years, creating a narrative about conspiracies, mainly that they do not exist. Right? We have, you know, had family members swept up in QAnon. We have listened to conspiracy after conspiracy after conspiracy about the pandemic. And I think conspiracy has taken on a particular meaning. And I would just encourage everyone to let go of a little bit of that, because this was a conspiracy. This was a conspiracy to overthrow our government. And I think it's hard because I think we decided, like, you know, thoughtful, analytical people don't believe in conspiracies. Right. That's not what we do. And. It can become tempting to just. Put these different events and silos and not realize that, no, there were people working together to an illegal end and there are, you know, sort of legal requirements for conspiracy, for seditious conspiracy. And. I think that's what the committee is laying out. And I think I can just I can feel that tug in myself of like but I'm not a person who believes in conspiracies. Right. And I think that Liz Cheney is using that word very deliberately. And it's almost like we have to let go. Of how we train ourselves to think about conspiracies throughout the pandemic and throughout the last election and think about them in an in a new and different way.  

Beth [00:39:56] So one of the most frequently asked questions that we are hearing about these hearings is what what does happen next? Is there going to be accountability? Why isn't anyone being held responsible? Why isn't everyone watching? Why isn't everyone having the scales fall from their eyes about what actually happened here? And I think the only thing we can really say about this. After the very first hearing of a series of hearings. Is it? The outcomes are not predetermined. There could be legislation. There could not. There could be political accountability for some actors and not others. Some people might have their minds changed. Some people might not. The best thing I saw this morning was a comment from Bill Kristol, a long time, pretty conservative commentator in Washington, D.C. and he said, you really can't control the outcomes of anything. All you can do is conduct yourself in a way that you're proud of. And this committee did that and Liz Cheney in particular did that. So true. And that's the choice for us, too. We cannot control what happens with the people around us. All we can do is conduct ourselves in ways that we're proud of on the other side of this and try to be open to the facts. Follow them where they lead. Don't prejudge ourselves what the outcomes ought to be. Don't set a bar that unless Donald Trump is arrested by the FBI in Mar a Lago in the middle of the night, and there is no justice in the world. I cannot be the standard here. We don't have all the information. We don't know all the pieces. We cannot sitting here in 2020 to know what people in 2094 will think was a just outcome here. We can only conduct ourselves in ways that we're going to be proud of, and I love that as sort of a way to put these hearings in some kind of personal context.  

Sarah [00:41:38] Yeah. And that's why, you know, to close the show, I opened it. I think that the best thing we can do is witness it as citizens. That's what we have control over. We have control over how we engage with this. If we watch it, if we witness it, if we take it in, if we respect the work of the committee by witnessing the evidence they are laying out for us. And I think that that is incredibly important. And, of course, we will be here to talk about the rest of the daytime hearings throughout the next couple of weeks.  

Beth [00:42:08] Next up, we have such a treat for you. We're going to take a hard turn. Talk about something really fun. The summer blockbuster, Top Gun maverick Tom Cruise still out there running for all of us with a very special guest.  

Sarah [00:42:31] Today, both outside politics, we decided to talk about the summer blockbuster, Top Gun Maverick. But then I had a very exciting idea. To have an idea is the best. I don't want to brag, but is the best idea to have it. We have a surprise guest for our conversation about Top Gun. Amy McGrath, welcome back to Pantsuit Politics.  

Amy McGrath [00:42:55] Awesome. Good to be with you.  

Sarah [00:42:57] Let me tell you, I thought about you the whole time I was watching this movie, obviously, due to your military history. And like until I read your book, I don't know how I thought they stopped the planes on the aircraft carrier, but I think it was just maybe I guess I just thought they had really good brakes. But it was not until I read all your descriptions of, like the hook and the flying and how precise it was that I really got the first Top Gun movie. But I thought this one did a good job as well, like a better job, honestly, of really showing.  

Beth [00:43:31] How.  

Sarah [00:43:32] Difficult it is to fly those planes and to land them on an aircraft carrier.  

Amy McGrath [00:43:38] And put it down on the on a postage stamp in the ocean. And they're really it's just such a challenge. But I love the movie. I mean, I thought it was entertaining at the beginning. There's a there's a prolog where it before the movie starts, there's a bunch of words and it tells you the history of Top Gun, the history of why they created this school within the United States Navy. When when I saw those those two extra words and women, I almost started tearing up because I remember watching that the top gun, the first one, and knowing that there were no women doing these jobs and knowing that there was a federal law prohibiting women from doing these jobs. And that was, of course, what I wanted to do. And so to come full circle and see the second Top Gun and see, you know, hey, this this school now has men and women. It was like, all right.  

Sarah [00:44:36] And I definitely thought Phenix was the most engaging pilot. Like I was in it with her. That one was a great actress, and I thought her character was really well developed and I was like, I'm here, I'm here for Phenix. I want her to be on the mission. I loved all of that. I thought she was great.  

Beth [00:44:51] How did you feel about the depiction of the relationships among the people at the school?  

Amy McGrath [00:44:57] I mean, I think that was pretty accurate. You're very you look you're very competitive. These are young. They're in their twenties. You know, usually these young pilots are early thirties. And you work very hard. You are the best of the best just to even get in the fighter community at all. You've got to be really good in the Navy, in the Marine Corps and in the Air Force. So there's a there's a little bit of arrogance, I think, to to every fighter pilot, a lot of confidence. And and then, you know, the characterization, for example, of the back seater that that's that's pretty spot on. You know, in the back Bob who you know, he's he's kind of the geek of the crowd and and but he's so important because he's the target or like he's the one that knows all the weapons systems. He's the one but, you know, may not be the most athletic of the group, but he's still a valuable, important part of the team. I thought it was pretty well done. You know, you have those types of characters in fighter squadrons. You definitely do.  

Sarah [00:46:03] So what did they get right? What did they get wrong? I mean, did you play that much beach volleyball or beach football?  

Amy McGrath [00:46:11] Who played? No beach volleyball? I'm afraid that was that was pretty wrong in terms of the original Top Gun and in the the second Top Gun, I mean, you're not out there playing a lot of beach football with the team, but you do you do do fun sort of team building activities here and there. And so that camaraderie is there and it's hard to put on screen. And I think they they did an okay job of showing the camaraderie in a in to the everyday person, but it's not really a football game on the beaches of San Diego. I never did that. And and there, of course, is a lot of technical aspects of Top Gun that you as a pilot know just aren't aren't accurate at all. But in general, it's a great it's a great intimate. The flying scenes were fantastic.  

Sarah [00:47:09] I thought these were much better than the first one. I thought they did a much better job of like conveying what an intense physical experience it is. Like, I didn't get that from the first movie, but like the, the way they would like show the vision of the pilot blacking out and the pressure. I thought all that was very impactful. 

Amy McGrath [00:47:25] That is real and pilots do blackout. And if you pull in enough G's, you get in what's called G lock and it'll kill you because you'll blackout and then the aircraft will run into the side of the mountain. I think, you know, one of the things that is hard for people to understand is you in a cockpit, you don't in a movie, these guys talk to each other like you and I are talking. That doesn't happen in real life. You don't you don't sit there and and know who's in aviation. It's like the I'm not going to spoil it for you. But in the in the end of the scene, there's there's one pilot. That comes kind of out of nowhere and you sort of save the day, right? Well, all of a sudden, all these pilots are talking to each other over the radio like they they know what's going on. They're not even on the same frequencies, you know, much less if they're flying a new aircraft that they hadn't fly long before. They probably don't even know where the radio is. So just like some of those things are, really.  

Sarah [00:48:28] How are you going to have that movie dialog Amy? Come on, now.  

Amy McGrath [00:48:32] So you have to you have to insert the movie dialog. And as a pilot, knowing that that's never going to happen. But these guys might be thinking that in their head, but they can't say it. They're not saying it.  

Sarah [00:48:43] Ah, that's Interesting.  

Amy McGrath [00:48:44] The other aspect of it is the fact that, you know, when you watch Top Gun and this is true for the first and the second movie, there seems to be these people on the ground that can sort of see what's going on in the air. I mean, that is just you know, I mean, even if you've got everything to work out correctly, you might be able to debrief a flight later on after you've landed. You might be able to see it... 

Sarah [00:49:11] But no one's watching live from the ground? 

Amy McGrath [00:49:13] No, you don't see that stuff. You can you can do some pretty good debrief with the technology we have today. But it's it's always like after it's very, very hard to get all the information and understand all of what's going on in an aerial combat fight while it's happening real time. Just almost impossible. I mean, you take we take after every flight, we would take, you know, literally hours trying to piece together what happened in a 32nd engagement. I mean, it's crazy.  

Sarah [00:49:49] That makes sense.  

Beth [00:49:50] Well, something that I loved in this movie was how the the older grown ups were around to make everything a little bit melancholy and reflective all the way through. And so I want to pull us back to politics for just a second, because we're having this episode during kind of a melancholy time. The first January 6th hearing will have aired by the time our listeners are hearing this conversation, and that is very related to what you're doing with a lot of your professional time and focus right now. Amy So will you just share a little bit about that?  

Amy McGrath [00:50:20] Sure. Well, look at everything that's going on with January 6th. You guys have said it so well. We we cannot look away. This is this is a big deal. I believe there will be another attempt to overthrow the next election if Donald Trump runs. He attempted to do it in 2020 and he's laying the groundwork at that for things that didn't work for him in 2020 he's trying to fix so that it does work for him in 2024. And what do I mean by that in 2020? You know, when things didn't go his way, he tried to bully and change the legitimate outcome of the elections. And, you know, just if you have a chance, your listeners, to Google the phone conversation between President Trump and the secretary of state of Georgia, Brad Raffensperger. It's worth Googling and listening to because it's almost unbelievable. He basically flat out says, I need you to find me 11,780 votes. Find me 12. Get me 12,000 votes. Okay. And then when the secretary of state pushes back, he then goes on to threaten the election official in Georgia with criminal prosecution if he did not find him these votes. I mean, that is unprecedented. That is like Belarus. That is like Vladimir Putin, Russia. Okay. And it and it happened now. Now, Trump was not successful and he was not successful because the secretary of state was a man of integrity, Republican, who basically said, no, Mr. President, you didn't get those votes and I'm not going to find them for you. Okay. Now, what Trump is trying to do is is replace people like him with people who are Trump election deniers into these key secretary of state positions around the country. And what what if secretary of state. I mean, these these positions typically, it's they're not they're elected officials, many of them. But it's not the bright, shiny object like the Senate race. Their jobs are to keep state records. They register businesses, but during elections, they are kind of like they set the rules, I think of elections being a sports match. They are your referees. They're the ones that call the balls and strikes. And if you have a guy who is a Trump supporting election denier in these positions in 2024, when things get tight again, they're going to do whatever Trump wants them to do. They're going to either find those. Boats. Or maybe they'll run endless investigations, or maybe they'll throw the election to Republican led state legislatures. So this could be really an existential crisis for our democracy. And it's happening right now. Now in front of us, there are 27 secretary of state races going on this year, and particularly in the swing states in the Republican primaries, the ones who are winning. By and large, there are some exceptions, but many of them are your election deniers. So New Mexico, Arizona, Minnesota, Michigan, Wisconsin, Nevada. These are key swing states. And right now, the Republican, the either the frontrunner or the nominee on the Republican side is somebody who said they would not certify the election of 2020, which means that in 20 2024, they're going to do what Trump wants them to do. And that is a threat to our democracy. And so what I'm doing is working on a project called the American S.O.S. Project to make sure these election deniers do not get in these key positions. It's it's not Democrat or Republican. It's just pro-democracy.  

Beth [00:54:25] How can people learn more about that if they'd like to get involved?  

Amy McGrath [00:54:28] Yeah, we have a website, American S.O.S. dot org and it's it's a501c for organization that is designed to basically make sure that these election deniers don't win. We're not trying to pick candidates or anything like that. We just want to make sure that these folks who have no integrity are not the ones who are counting the votes in 2024. And that's why, you know, this this cycle is so important because many of these states elect their secretary of state this year. So that's what the organization does. And if people are interested, they should look it up and support us. Because I always talk to people and they say, you know, we are and you guys are a part of this, too. You do a great job of talking about our democracy, the threats to our democracy, and what's going on for people who are patriots to really care and understand. What I'm trying to do is give people an avenue to act. Because it's one thing to know about what's going on and the threats to our country. It's another thing to actually act on it. To push back on it, not just talk about it. And the talking is important, but to actually put resources behind a coordinated effort to make sure in this case, to make sure that these people who are election deniers do not get into these key positions. I just think, you know, it's part of a bigger effort, but it's so important.  

Beth [00:56:06] Well, thank you for coming on our show as a surprise guest to talk about important things, but also, you know, very funny things like criticisms of Top Gun. It's really good. It's really a fun summer movie. If you haven't seen it, go see it. My only criticism is I think Tom Cruise and Jennifer Connelly have zero chemistry. I had more chemistry with Jon Hamm from the audience than those two had together, but otherwise it really was fun. And I thought about you the whole time. Thank you so much for coming on the show and chatting with us about it and sharing your latest project with all our listeners.  

Amy McGrath [00:56:34] You bet. It's a great movie and I love you guys and love being on the show.  

Sarah [00:56:38] We love you too! 

Beth [00:56:39] Thanks Amy. Thank you so much to Amy McGrath for joining us. I hope you will check out her latest project, which is very related to the events of January six and all of the context that surrounds it. We will be back here with you next week to continue watching these hearings. We have some other special guests coming on to lighten things up here and there because we all have to contain multitudes. Until then, have the best weekend available to you. Pantsuit Politics is produced by studio podcast production. Ellie Snap is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:57:18] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lema is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:57:24] Our show is listener supported special thanks to our executive producers:  

Executive Producer Reads [00:57:27] Marth Bronitsky, Linda Daniel, Ali Edwards, Janice Elliot, Sarah Greenup, Julie Haller, Helen Handley, Tifany Hassler, Emily Holliday, Katie Johnson, Katina Zuganelis Kasling, Barry Kaufman, Molly Kohrs. The Kriebs, Laurie LaDow, Lilly McClure, David McWilliams, Jared Minso, Emily Neesly, The Pentons, Tawni Peterson, Tracy Puthoff, Sarah Ralph, Jeremt Sequoia, Karin True, Onica Ulveling, Nick and Alysa Vilelli, Katherine Vollmer, Amy Whited, 

Beth [00:58:00] Jeff Davis, Melinda Johnston Ashley Thompson, Michelle Wood, Joshua Allen, Morgan MeHugh, Nicole Berlas, Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 




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