Dress Codes and the Don't Worry Drama

TOPICS DISCUSSED

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EPISODE RESOURCES

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland. 

Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics. Today, we're going to tackle dress codes. We know this is a topic that is on a lot of minds with the beginning of school, and we invited two very special guests to discuss this with us, my son Griffin, and Beth's daughter Jane. And then after our discussion with them, we're going to deep dive into the topic between the two of us. And last but certainly not least, we're going to talk about the celebrity drama that has kept the Internet abuzz. The cast of Don't Worry, Darling and the Chaos They Caused at the Venice Film Festival. But before we get to that, you may have heard by now that-- right as we were about to publish on this episode-- we all learned of the death of Queen Elizabeth II, Britain's longest reigning monarch.  

Beth [00:01:07] The Internet is going to be filled for a couple of days with a lot of takes, some of which are terrible takes and a lot of well-deserved montages that have critical elements as well as celebratory elements. We want to spend some time thinking about this because Queen Elizabeth lived through a lot of change. And when you start to think about what it means to have lived through that much change and to know that your death will prompt a tremendous amount of change, we just need to take some time with that. So for today, we want to say that this is a person who led a remarkable life. There are many, many, pieces to thinking through what her life represents. We will do that in time. We celebrate a life long lived, though. May we all get to 96 and die surrounded by people who love us. And may her family feel comfort in this time. And all of you, especially those of you listening in the U.K., may you feel the the warmth of our affection as you process this loss.  

Sarah [00:02:18] And listen, the end of a seven decade long reign is not a quick process. So we are going to have time. This is a long process between the transfer of power to her son, who we learned today will be King Charles, the third. Both her funeral and his coronation, there's going to be a lot of pomp and circumstances and time to think about all this. So we will give this the time it deserves and discuss it on a later episode. But for now, here is our conversation with Griffin and Jane about dress codes. We are thrilled to welcome to Pantsuit Politics today two very special guests, Griffin Holland, my oldest son. Will you say hi.  

Griffin [00:03:11] Yeah, I'm here.  

Sarah [00:03:15] And Jane Silvers, Beth's eldest child. Jane, you want to say hi?  

Jane [00:03:20] Hi.  

Sarah [00:03:21] We invited you to here today because you have both expressed frustration and concerns about your individual school dress codes. This is something happening across the country. When I Googled dress codes, it's so interesting too see and watch the local news stories that pop up from almost every state. And so we thought we'd come here and talk about that. Jane, do you want to start and tell us about your school dress code and whether you've been dress coded and just sort of your individual interactions with it?  

Jane [00:03:55] So I have not been dress coded, but our school dress code is girls and boys are not allowed to wear tank tops and we have to have shorts that are three and a half exactly inches long inseam.   

Beth [00:04:10] And you have been mad about this since the moment you learned about it. You want to share why?  

Jane [00:04:14] I think it's ridiculous that they are not allowing us to wear tank tops because it gets really hot on field days especially. So we should be able to wear a tank top outside if we're, like, running.   

Sarah [00:04:35] Totally. Now, Griffin, you was a sixth grader last year.  

Griffin [00:04:39] Seventh grade.  

Sarah [00:04:40] Seventh grade you took your concerns to the dress code sort of public. You had a petition that how many people ended up signing?  

Griffin [00:04:49]  I haven't checked it in a long time because-- I don't know. I think it was around like 600. It was a lot of people.  

Sarah [00:04:58] And then we went to the SBDM.  

Griffin [00:05:00] Yes, we went to an SBDM meeting and brought up our concerns.  

Sarah [00:05:05] Tell them what your concerns were.  

Griffin [00:05:06] My concerns were that, one, I think that the dress code is at least enforced a lot more towards women versus towards men just because some of the rules are just very clearly for women. I don't know. I wouldn't say all of them, but I'd say most of them like the knees and the short lengths and all that stuff. But no one thinks that that's for men. And if they say that they do, they're lying. At least that's where I stand on it. And the other concern is that. Even if it was enforced equally between women and men, it's still pretty harsh. Like, you can't have holes in your jeans period, which seems kind of ridiculous especially for fall because I don't want to wear just jeans, it's still kind of hot and I don't want to wear the shorts, it's still kind of cold.  

Sarah [00:06:07] You got dress coded for the holes in your jeans one time, right?  

Griffin [00:06:10] Once, but I don't count that because [Inaudible] teacher liked me all that much.  

Sarah [00:06:14] I think that's often the concern with the dress code, right, is sometimes it's just a tool for-- at least the students feel that it's just a tool to sort of control. It really isn't about the 'dress code', but more about the relationship between the student and the teacher. What do you feel like the purpose of the dress code is? Or at least what's the articulated reason that the school has a dress code?  

Griffin [00:06:38] When you say articulated, you mean like what's the stated reason or the actual reason?  

Sarah [00:06:43] Well, you can tell us if you think they're different.  

Griffin [00:06:45] I think the stated reason is to like make an orderly school environment or whatever that means. Maintain an orderly student environment. But I think the actual reason is just sort of a means of control. I wouldn't say it's like literally a means of control, but it's used as one. 

Beth [00:07:09] What do you think, Jane? What have they told you is the purpose, especially of the shorts role? Because I know you've had a lot of communication about the shorts role.  

Jane [00:07:16] The purpose is not to distract people from learning. And I don't really see how bodies are distracting the people.  

Griffin [00:07:25] Yeah. That whole thing about distracting to learning really feels like where, I mean, not explicitly victim blaming, but we're like getting mad at people for being looked at, which seems really dumb and also sexist on both parts. Because if one assumes that men can't do work when any woman is present and like wearing shorts, and it also assumes that when women wear shorts and are immediately trying to get attention for men, which are both not always the case and usually not the case.  

Sarah [00:08:02] What do you think, Jane?  

Jane [00:08:03] I definitely agree with that.  

Beth [00:08:05] Yeah, we've been talking about how even if there were uniforms for everybody, kids would be distracted by and attracted to each other. That's just the nature of being a person.  

Griffin [00:08:16] Well, yeah, that too.  I just mean, like, I don't think shorts are influencing that even a little bit.  

Sarah [00:08:23] Can I be the devil's advocate here? I can hear the teachers in our ears and in our inboxes. I think some of this is generational. Without a doubt, shorts have gotten shorter and shorter and shorter over the course of the last several years.There were still short shorts when I was young, but they've gotten shorter. Now, I think that brings up an issue that I'd like to hear Jane talk about, which is, can you actually go out and buy shorts for an 11-year-old girl with a three and a half inch inseam? Like, it's not like the girls themselves are designing the shorts. It's adults out there making shorts for 11 year olds with a half inch inseam.  

Beth [00:09:05]  We had a really hard time finding shorts for school for you.  

Jane [00:09:08] Yeah. You can't find any shorts that are exactly or longer than three and a half inches because that's just the way people make clothes now. They don't make it to be appropriate for the school dress code because there's all these social media platforms that are showing people wearing shorter clothes like crop tops and short shorts. So people are starting to make that because they get more money for it. And now there's like only those and we can't find any that are longer.  

Sarah [00:09:43] I think that raises an interesting question, and I'd like to hear your answer, which is, do you think the dress code should be for how kids dress or how adults think kids should dress? Do you see what I'm saying? Are we dealing with how kids actually dress and trying to put perimeters around that? Are we trying to set a higher standard for how we think they should dress?  

Griffin [00:10:03] Do you mean--  

Sarah [00:10:04] Or a different maybe not higher-- different standard.  

Griffin [00:10:06] Do you mean is the dress code too--  

Sarah [00:10:12] Prescribe or describe.  

Griffin [00:10:15] Is it trying-- I'm very sorry.  

Sarah [00:10:18] Is the dress code trying to push people to dress in a certain way, or is it just trying to deal with the way they already dress?  

Griffin [00:10:25] I think it's trying to deal with the way they already dress.  

Sarah [00:10:29] I think that's what you're advocating, but I don't think that's what they were written for. Does that make sense?  

Griffin [00:10:34] I guess. But one of the rules at our school is no sagging because the teachers got so mad when kids were sagging.  

Sarah [00:10:49] What do you think, Jane? What should they be?  

Beth [00:10:52] Well, can I ask this? A spin on that question. What do you think the school environment ought to be like? Like, do you think there should be a dress code for teachers? And if so, how should that vary from teachers to students? Should there be a distinction or should everybody be kind of dressing a certain way to be at school?  

Jane [00:11:10] I feel like everybody should be. If students have a dress code, teacher should also have the same dress code. Because if you're going to push it that far to saying it's a distraction for people learning, wouldn't students be distracted by the teachers wearing certain clothes?  

Beth [00:11:29] What I mean more, though, is do you expect your teachers to dress more professionally than students or do you think everybody ought to be kind of in the same parameters?  

Jane [00:11:38] Everybody be in the same parameters.  

Sarah [00:11:42] Yeah. Like, should teachers not be allowed to wear jeans or tennis shoes? Is that distracting? Does that contribute to an orderly environment?  

Griffin [00:11:50] Teachers should be allowed to wear whatever clothes are comfortable. They're already dealing with a bunch of middle schoolers.  

Sarah [00:11:55] Seems fair. So, well, then I think some of the other issues is like, well, how comfortable? Because I think there's the gendered aspect of the dress code, which I think is definitely the main area of complaint. But there are some other issues. There's the issue of if you're talking about comfort, should people be able to come to school in their pajamas? They're comfortable.  

Jane [00:12:16] I mean, if they're learning, that's already a bunch of stress that comes from middle school. So they should be able to wear comfortable clothes, like PJs or sweat pants or a sweatshirt.  

Griffin [00:12:32] I mean, I don't see a problem of people going to school in pyjamas [Inaudible]. They're usually like, yeah, sure, it's just pajamas.  

Sarah [00:12:42] Well, I will respectfully disagree. I do not think people should be able to come to school in their pajamas, teachers or students, because clothing does communicate. It's really not self-contained. When we step out into a public space, our clothing is telling people things, things we want to tell them, maybe things we don't want to tell them, but it's communicating. I'm stealing this from a listener who wrote us an email, and I just thought clothing communicates was the best. But I told you that before. What do I tell you about church?  

Griffin [00:13:08] That we need to dress nice for reasons.  

Sarah [00:13:12] Because it's a sacred space and that's how we convey our respect for the sacred space. Now, school is not sacred, but in theory it is a professional environment. You're there to do a job. They're there to do a job. They get paid. You don't, but you're getting something for free, an education. So it does feel like we should communicate some level of respect for the space. And I think the over zealous dress codes are trying to do that. They're just trying to do it in the wrong way. Well, I think it is complicated. I think the gendered critique is the strongest one because  Griffin was saying his dress code has like six pages for girls and like a page for boys. That seems very unfair. Do you feel like yours is imbalanced like that, Jane?  

Jane [00:13:55] Exactly like that.  

Beth [00:13:56] Will you talk about some of what you've been telling me about the book that you've been reading too about, because yours is inseam length, but some shorts rules are really silly because they assume everybody's body proportions are the same. Can you talk about that a little bit?  

Jane [00:14:09] So I'm reading this book called Dress Coded, and I'm about halfway through it and it's already made some strong points about like some girls have bigger parts of their bodies than others. And two girls were wearing the exact same clothes and one got dress coded because she was a bit bigger than the other one, even though they were wearing exact same thing.  

Beth [00:14:31] And you were telling me about arm length and just [Crosstalk] and all.  

Sarah [00:14:34] Is that how your school was, Beth? When you were growing up it was arm length.  

Beth [00:14:37] Yeah. Your longest finger had to touch the seam of your shorts when I was in school.  

Sarah [00:14:43] Which you know people's thighs are different lengths. People's arms are different lengths.  

Griffin [00:14:47] I definitely see people at my school. I mean, and this is a unique observation. I was walking down the hallway yesterday and I heard something along the lines of like, well, you know bigger girls get dress coded more because they're looked at more..  

Sarah [00:15:03] You feel like it's discrimination based on size, too?  

Griffin [00:15:06] Yes. I don't think that the point is they're looked at the more, I'm not sure that was what that person was trying to say. I think they were trying to say like they're paying more attention if that makes any sense.  And that might just be like invisible bias. That might be--.  

Sarah [00:15:26] A lot of different things.  

Griffin [00:15:26] Yes, it's always a lot of different things. It's nuance. The thing that your podcast is about.  

Beth [00:15:33] You know what I struggle with as a parent-- because I agree with 99% of Jane's critiques of the dress code-- I don't know how much to push on this issue because to Sarah's point, there are spaces where we expect people to dress a certain way and always will. And there are lots of things that happen that accompany a job or being in an organization that you think, well, that doesn't make any sense at all. And part of being an adult, I think, is just figuring out which of those do I fight about and which do I not? Because you do just have to tolerate some amount of this doesn't make sense to me, but I'm going to go along with it anyway. So I wonder, Griffin, especially since you took action on this issue, what made you think this is important enough that I want to say something about it? And, Jane, I wonder how you're feeling about that after you've been in school for a couple of weeks and have more of a sense of how this is enforced? What made it important enough to you to kind of press on Griffin?  

Griffin [00:16:33] What made it important enough or what made me start or about?  

Beth [00:16:37] Both .  

Griffin [00:16:39] What made it important enough was that I was seeing it every single day, someone I knew or just someone I saw in the hallway was getting dress coded for something stupid, or in my opinion, stupid. Like, short length or holes in the jeans or how long the sleeves were on their shirt, which is really weird. And I was just like, wait, this is dumb and I don't like this. So basically I got on my school computer and I went on to Change.org and I did a petition. And I wrote a pretty bad outline draft.  

Sarah [00:17:17] Do not agree. I disagree. It was not bad.  

Griffin [00:17:20] It was capitalised like a Donald Trump tweet.  

Sarah [00:17:23] The recapitalization was problematic, but otherwise it was great.  

Griffin [00:17:26]  That's the reason I say it was bad. And I basically was just like I don't like it. I disagree with how this works and I think that it should be changed. And then that took off some way.  

Sarah [00:17:37] Where are you with that now? I've been a little disappointed. I was thinking the other day that I might email the principal and say, like, I feel like the message was you can try but no change is going to happen. And I don't want that to be the message you take away.  

Griffin [00:17:51] It's not the message I've been taking away from. The message I've been taking away is that you  can't convince someone... The message that I took away from that was basically you can't convince anyone by complaining, which is what I felt like I was doing, which I was complaining because I thought it was bad. And didn't convince anyone because it was a complaint and they didn't like that.  

Sarah [00:18:15] But you needed a request, not just a complain. 

Griffin [00:18:17]  I needed a request and I didn't have that.  

Sarah [00:18:20] A very good take away.  

Griffin [00:18:22] And, I mean, the problem with that whole thing is that, one, I don't feel like I tried hard enough and I probably should go back to SBDM and I should keep going. I shouldn't have just quit, which I did. And I feel bad about that. And I should keep going. Which I think I'm going to do next. I haven't brought this up with you, but the next SBDM I'm going to go back.  

Sarah [00:18:41] What's going to be your request?  

Griffin [00:18:43] My request is that I think they just look into it and just-- 

Sarah [00:18:48] Maybe a committee.  

Griffin [00:18:50] Maybe, but maybe--  

Sarah [00:18:51] With students on it, for example.  

Griffin [00:18:53] Yeah, I think that one them they should reevaluate the decisions they've been making.  And two, the need to consult more than just the people who work there and the people who go there and have to go there.  

Sarah [00:19:05] What do you think, Jane?  

Beth [00:19:07] You're brand new to your school. Is this something that you want to advocate for change on or are you just going to kind of suck it up because there are other things that you think are more important?  

Jane [00:19:16] I feel like changing the dress code is important because people should dress what they feel confident in. And a lot of people in middle school struggle with being confident. And I feel like wearing what you want to wear and dressing how you want to dress puts a big impact on it.  

Beth [00:19:37] What do you think would be an effective way to start to communicate about that with your school?  

Jane [00:19:43] Get like a few of my friends and have a meeting with the principals about maybe possibly looking for a different more fitting into society update on the dress code.  

Sarah [00:19:59] There's lots of good updates out there. We'll talk about that in the main segment some of the changes some school districts and schools are working on. But for now, I think this is really good. Thanks guys for coming and talking to us.  

Griffin [00:20:10] Thanks for inviting me and letting me do my best here.  

Sarah [00:20:14] Thanks for coming on the show, Jane.  

Jane [00:20:16] Thank you guys, too.  

Sarah [00:20:33] As we dive in more depth on dress codes, I think the first thing to remember is this is not a new issue. Dress codes are not new. They have been around as long as human society has been around, which is a long time. And they continue to be enforced by all types of institutions, schools, businesses, governments still. And I think it is fair to say that they are used to maintain status or the status quo when you saw a lot of restrictions in the way back based on class. My favorite one I read about it was in the Elizabethan period only nobles could wear those big fancy collars. Just anybody couldn't get a hold of those big fancy collars. They're also probably expensive, which is another way we maintain status. That's more fashion than dress codes, but they're used to maintain power and status quo, and lots of different groups have been targeted. Obviously the institution and group we talk about with Griffin and Jane are school dress codes that disproportionately target girls.  

Beth [00:21:40] I think that history is so important because I want to make sure that our educators listening do not feel like this is another set of complaints or attacks coming their way. The reason to talk about dress codes on a political podcast is because we're communicating a whole lot about power to young people through the policies that surround them at school. That can be true and exist alongside the fact that a lot of administrators have no opportunity to change the school dress code. Like this isn't about individual decision making. It's about kind of societal expectations and how they get translated through policy. I wanted to mention you and Griffin used the term SBDM a couple of times in our conversation. That is a governance structure in Kentucky. Our school boards function a little bit like the CFO of the infrastructure of the school district. So bussing services, the budget , staffing resources are allocated, but the policymaking and the curriculum planning all happens at the local level through site based decision making councils. That's what SBDM stands for. So again, not an attack on principles because a lot of our principals hate the dress codes that they are tasked with enforcing. It's a collection of parents and teachers who are making some of those decisions. And I just like you setting us up in that history and larger context so that we can remember this isn't more dumping on educators.  

Sarah [00:23:10] In particular when we talk about gender, this does not just happened in school settings. There's all kinds of arguably discriminatory dress code policies and works and governments. I mean, lest we forget, it wasn't until 2017 that you could wear a sleeveless dress or open toed shoes on the floor of the House of Representatives. This is the most interesting one I read about when I was doing the research for this episode. In 2004 the Ninth Circuit upheld a lower court's ruling that Harry's casino in Las Vegas could require staff to wear lipstick.  

Beth [00:23:45] Stop it.  

Sarah [00:23:47] Lipstick. They're like, it's not discriminatory that you have to wear lipstick. And, of course, I mean, some of these even at the school level are enforced by state law. There's like 28 states that have laws on the book governing school dress code policies regarding women. I mean, Arkansas prohibits the wearing of clothing that exposes underwear, buttocks or the breast of a female. What part of the breast, friends? That is vague. You know what I'm saying? And that's the thing. And we're going to talk about other groups targeted in a minute. But when you talk about dress codes, school business, government, otherwise that target women, there are so many problems. Beginning with why? What's the why behind this policy? And often it is conveyed in terms of distraction. It is distracting to the men around these women if they dress in these ways.  

Beth [00:24:53] Jane gets very fired up about this, much more so than you heard in the first segment. It turns out that our children find microphones somewhat intimidating, understandably so. But she gets really upset about this. And for a lot of reasons, she is really sensitive to LGBT issues and the way that all of this exist in a universe that she doesn't exist in anymore. She has so many friends who are nonbinary, bisexual. This feels so dated to her in so many respects. The idea that if she has on a tank top and a boy happens to see her bra strap, he has an urge that is beyond his control and hers. And she's like, what are you talking about? And I think that's really fair.and a conversation that adults are super uncomfortable having and reluctant to have. But we're doing such a disservice to the landscape that these kids operate in by not being willing to go there with them.  

Sarah [00:25:55] Well, I think the the why behind the policy is problematic. I think the enforcement of these policies is hugely problematic. There was a high school that was enforcing a dress code at prom and they took the girls outside and made them bend over in front of the teachers. They were crying. Touching their toes without tugging the dresses down. If I was a parent of a girl who was forced to bend over in front of adults, I would lose my ever loving mind. 

Beth [00:26:30]  I would too.  

Sarah [00:26:33] And like the, well, it's so and so inches. Well, are you  going to go around measuring their thighs and then dividing by two?  Especially if it's a policy around inseams, which I think is unfortunately the most objective they can get to. But who's going to measure the inseam and who's going to pull them out of class? And are you going to disrupt their learning for this? You're going to disrupt their learning in pursuit of learning not being disrupted. Can everybody see the irony here?  

Beth [00:27:01] Well, and I will say, as a person who has done HR work and had to talk to people about personal issues like you're not dressing professionally enough, or you are wearing a fragrance that's too intense for the people around you or whatever. Adults are terrible at communicating with other adults about those kinds of topics. Adults who have training to have those conversations, it is still miserable and hard. Do we honestly want our school staff to have to do this when they're trying to do everything else that needs to be done in the course of a day in the life of a middle schooler? I don't think we do.  

Sarah [00:27:42] And in my short time sabing, what I've noticed is that it's this very difficult situation in which there is a need for discipline, whether it's dress code, whether it's behavior. And also the disciplining itself sets off this domino effect of frustration and emotion and reactivity and defensiveness. And it's like you can just see everybody shut down. I'm sure this is the same exact thing in workplaces. And at the same time, it can't just be a free for all. There has to be boundaries, there has to be rules. And it's also like in the forcing of these rules is just such a chaos magnet.  

Beth [00:28:28] That is the question that I have, because I'm not trying to sit here saying there should be no standards for how people dress when they come to school. I just wonder what the balance is between setting a standard that's useful to everyone and spending so much time upholding that standard that it starts to be self-defeating. What I experience when I walk into a school, whether I'm there to sub or just dropping something off or whatever, is sensory overload. I just feel even in our exceptionally well-run school. And I mean that. I have very few complaints about the elementary school that my daughters have attended. I'm learning about the middle school, but I am extremely impressed with it so far. Even in our very well run school, it is so loud. There are so many bodies, there are so many colors. It is overwhelming to me from a sensory perspective. It feels like chaos, even though I know that the chaos is organized and there are a lot of protocols around it. And I also appreciate that adding even more protocols gets to a point where you're telling kids that they have to be at level zero all the time and that doesn't work. You got to have some chaos and let them be. So I wonder, sometimes I think would uniforms help just to calm some of that sensory overload? Jane hates it when I bring up uniforms. She thinks that is the ultimate worst decision that could be made here. But that's my question. What helps calm some of that chaos? And would a dress code that brings that sensory sensory load down also bring down some of the other issues that might creep up in the course of a day? I don't know the answer to that.  

Sarah [00:30:15] I want to get to that. I want to get to the more specifics of school dress codes. But before we move on, I do want to make clear that dress codes at school in other places don't just target girls and women. There's a lot of targeting. There's a lot of racial targeting around hairstyles that has been much reported on. And importantly it's not like we've resolved it. We have not fixed it. There are still girls and women of many ethnic groups being targeted because of their hairstyles, which I don't even understand.  I can get there with you on skirts and some other stuff. How you think a hairstyle is disruptive, I struggle. I really struggle to see the reasoning there, but it definitely happens. And then of course we have LGBT, non-binary, you're not dressing for your assigned gender, then you're getting dress coded which again is arguably discriminatory and outrageous in my personal opinion. Then you have dress codes that target religious groups. I mean, there is a worldwide debate on the hijab. I listened to a really interesting interview where one sister was on one side of the issue and one sister was on the other side of the issue. And as far as like legally requiring the hijab and how it's treated, the sister who was opposed said, like, my mother wears it, I want to stand side by side with her. I just want it to be a choice. I want to be able to decide. Which I think is the undercurrent of a lot of this. I want to be able to decide for myself. I don't want someone else telling me about this very personal decision. As I thought with regards, I think, to the discussion around the hijab, I think it's a really fascinating conversation in Europe where you see governments trying to prevent people from wearing the hijab, which I think strikes Americans in particular is so sort of outrageous. And what really helped me think through that was Rick Steves book where he talks about Rousseau V. Locke and the way we're very individualized and the way we see society and our role inside of it. And they're very group oriented. And so I thought, well, that kind of makes sense how we would see that differently, how they feel like they're protecting the group and they're protecting their culture and they see the hijab as a threat. We are very individualized and we are [Inaudible]. Why would you restrict someone's individual decision like that? And I think that's honestly the undercurrent to a lot of this conversation around dress codes. Are we talking about the group? Are we talking about the individual? Are we talking about the world we want to live in? Are we talking about the world we do live in?  

Beth [00:32:44] And some of those standards, again, are very dated. We've come a long way on this issue. But when I started work as a lawyer, one of my colleagues was a man and he had an earring that he removed every day before work and put it back on every day because he was concerned about how that would be perceived in the workplace. And again, I think we've come a long way. But when you talk about religious expression, I think we have a real conversation that needs to happen around how many Americans have a spirituality that is unconnected to a faith. And if I ask you to cover up your tattoos and several of your tattoos have your kids names or something of deep meaning to you, a memorialization of someone who you love, how close am I walking to that free expression line about what's meaningful to you here in the universe? It does seem to me that much of what we have talked about as professional is so rooted in concepts that have dramatically evolved that we need to regroup.  

Sarah [00:33:58] Yeah. And also, if I'm being honest with myself, I probably lean a little more European, a little more Rousseau. I do think it's important to think about not just your individual expression, but the effect it has on the group. We had a listener send us an incredible email. She worked in a middle school and she use the phrase clothing always communicates. And I thought, that's it. I'm going to steal that. I'm going to use that all the time because it does. It always communicates. And it feels like a lot of times we have this conversation and the argument is, well, it shouldn't. Well, I'm sorry, it does. Like, even if you choose to walk naked, that is a communication. If you choose to only dress in comfortable clothes, you are communicating your priorities. We are social creatures that is in the very structure, in our very cells and our psychology. We are so social; and because we are, the way we appear to one another is communicating constantly. Constantly. And so I do get frustrated when the undercurrent of the argument is it's just my choice, it shouldn't matter to you. Because I think that is unrealistic and sort of just not based in how we behave as human beings. And that part bugs me. So I want to have a conversation about individual expression, but I do want to always keep present that clothing does communicate. It does communicate it. And so because it does in certain places and certain places in institutions, there should be boundaries and rules. A one of my favorite conversations we've ever had between the two of us was way back in the day on the nuanced life, and we talked about church clothes. And I really worked some stuff out there. I felt like I clarified a lot of things because I feel strongly about church clothes. Like, I don't want to see someone's hairy armpits and a cut off t shirt at a funeral visitation. I don't. I think that's disrespectful. And so I am more comfortable with boundaries around this because I do think there is that communication constantly going on.  

Beth [00:35:57] I think there's communication constantly going on. And you can tell that we're hungry for that by the prolific wearing of t shirts with very aggressive material on them. I mean, you can tell that people want their clothing to communicate. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. I am much less interested in the group standards than you are in almost every setting, and that is a turn for me I was asked to and did with a lot of intensity work on professional dress in my workplace when I first moved into an H.R. role. And I look back and I think you were on the wrong here, that you handled this wrong. You should have argued about this more. Because we aren't just talking about societal communication and individual choices. We are also talking a lot about people's bodies, the type of clothing that is available to them, just what they can get access to depending on the shape of their bodies. We are talking about disabilities. I don't dress exactly as I would like to, in part because getting things in my size is difficult, but in part because I have fibromyalgia and clothes hurt. Really structured clothes are extremely difficult for me to wear for more than an hour. They just are. And so there's just a lot that plays into this conversation. Those are only the tip of the iceberg in terms of what informs how someone has been socialized to dress and what is actually available to them. I would always rather somebody come to your funeral in a cut off shirt than not come to the funeral. That's where I sit on these issues. How you translate that into a number of different settings, the military, the halls of Congress, a workplace, a school, those are very thorny questions because I am not saying there should be no standards. I just think finding a standard that takes into account everything that swirls around this and shows genuine respect for people where they are is challenging.  

Sarah [00:38:13] Well, here's where I think I've come to on this. The issue is not the group standard. The issue is who sets the standard. And if the standard comes on high with no participation from said group, we have a problem. It's how the process concludes at a standard more than it is the standard itself, right? The problem with the dress code at Capitol Hill was not that we want to say we have no code for this very important place. Because I think post January six, probably most of us could agree we want to signal in every way possible that this is a sacred important place. The problem is that women hadn't participated in those roles because there weren't a lot of women around when they were setting them. So it's like I think that's the issue. It's like the process that we get at the group standard. Not that we shouldn't have any group standards, not that we shouldn't acknowledge that. We do have to balance individual expression and communicating to the group.  And I think that that balance is hard. I think that balance is a trap. I think it's a double bind for women. Don't be too frumpy. Don't be too sexy. And really what we want is for you to just constantly be second guessing yourself.  

Beth [00:39:24] And to be attractive while you second guess yourself. Be competent and powerful and attractive while you second guess yourself.  

Sarah [00:39:30] Yeah. It's just like constantly keeping you out of kilter. I think that's true for racial groups too.  

Beth [00:39:35] Well, and to be fair, I think men feel that pressure now, too. I think that this conversation has evolved to a place where men are second guessing their bodies, what they wear, their choices, their fashion and feeling weird about that even as they do. I think it's tricky for everybody right now.  

Sarah [00:39:54] And I think what I find the most powerful is instead of fighting the idea that our clothing does communicate, when people reclaim it, when they take that power and use it themselves-- one of my favorite things I read while researching this episode was an article about the well-dressed movement at Syracuse University. It was led by some black male students there. I think Kwame Phillips was one of the lead and they accidentally dressed up. He had an interview, his roommate had an interview and everybody was like, why are you both dressed up? And they're like, well-dressed Wednesday. They just, like, took it. And they felt like we're doing something very purposeful here. Like, we are dressing nicely to push back against stereotypes. I heard an interesting conversation about the civil rights movement and when they would sit at the lunch tables, when the activist would sit at the lunch tables the way they dressed. And there's some people that are like, well, that's playing to respectability politics. And I heard a historian that was like, no, they were claiming the power. Because at certain points in segregation, a black person could get in trouble for dressing nicely. Like, that was a threat to white supremacy. And so to reclaim that and to say, like, we will communicate that we are human beings worthy of dignity, respect through our clothing, I think that's incredibly powerful. And I don't think it always has to be like dressing nicely as the only way to do that. I think there are lots of very clever, amazing ways people use fashion to communicate all manner of things. I think that's why fashion deserves respect and the way we dress deserves-- the way we talk about it, it is a subject worthy of conversation and respect because it is a powerful thing in lots of different ways. And so when people take that and understand it and use it in a way that is so just clever, I love it. I love it so much.  

Beth [00:41:46] Well, and I love it when that has a playful component. One of the most well adjusted human beings that I know is deeply into cosplay, like deeply, deeply into it. And I think there's something to that. There is an outlet for this type of communication and expressive. It's purposeful, it's celebrated. There is an artistry about it. How many of us have opportunities like that? This is my hot take for the day. I think prom is wasted on teenagers. It's a lot of pressure. It's a lot of opportunity to get in trouble. It's a lot of opportunity--  

Sarah [00:42:19] Pour somebody else's money.  

Beth [00:42:20] Apparently, for some adults to make really bad choices too. I think adults really need outlets like that. You get to a place where you're not going to mini weddings anymore because everybody is kind of settled in that respect. You don't have many places to get dressed up and feel fancy for a night, and a lot of us need that opportunity. I think there was a reason we used to have lots of masquerades and that something would be gained by bringing things like that back in a more mainstream way. I wonder if we had more opportunities for adults to really dress specifically if we could  back off these aggressive T-shirts. And I don't like the aggressive  T-shirts.  

Sarah [00:43:01] I don't like the aggressive T-shirts. Yeah. And if you're arguing that this doesn't matter, tell me it didn't matter when Michelle Obama walked down that inaugural staircase in pants at Joe Biden's inauguration in that long coat. Give me a break. Everybody went gasp. The whole entire country went gasp. It is incredibly powerful. And I think it is more powerful when you're choosing it within the boundaries or you're playing with the rules in a really interesting way to sort of ask questions. And I think you're right. Like, I think adults need that. And again, the T-shirt, not a fan. I'm not a fan of it.  

Beth [00:43:36] Well, and how am I reasonably going to say to my kids you can't wear a tank top to school, but you can go in any public space and see an adult with a very offensive word plastered across their chest. I mean, I don't want to outlaw that, of course, free expression, blah, blah, blah. I would just like us to use better judgment because that's out of control.  I'm not a prude about language, but, like, that's out of control.  

Sarah [00:44:05] Well, and also, that's pretty much the only role everyone can agree on when we talk about school dress codes. It's like no offensive language on your shirts. We're telling them that and we're showing them something different.  

Beth [00:44:16] That's right. And violent imagery. We ask them to not be violent. And these shirts, they're violent often.  

Sarah [00:44:23] Yeah. Well, and so as we wrap this up, we go back around the school dress codes, work down the lot of great science or evidence based conclusions on the impact of dress codes or uniforms, for that matter, which is pretty interesting. Well, put links in the show notes to some of these studies. And we have a broadly protected right to free speech. But the court has said, like, you don't really have it as broadly inside a school building. And it's so interesting because it's so reactionary, right? Like in the sixties, it was long hair and then in the seventies, it was miniskirts. And you can just trace these sort of trends and reactions through school dress codes and you have those issues of who can afford it that there's inconsistence. I mean, to me, that's some of the undercurrent of all these conflicts of dress codes is because you can always look a couple of districts over and find a different approach. It's not like there's any consistency to point to. But there are some school districts, I think, doing really good work and finding some solutions. I read an article about Roanoke County Public Schools held up as a model. Again, they involved the people being policed in the process. It was a very democratic process. Parents got involved, kids got involved, they voted to approve it. It was like 59% approved it.  

[00:45:38] They kept the part about like no offensive language, all that. And then they have a diagram that's, like, here's what needs to be covered. It's a very gender neutral diagram. It's like you have to have straps, you have to have a 3 to 4 inch inseam. We don't want to see any--  and they just marked it out. Again, we'll put a link in the show notes so you can see it. And I thought like there are people cracking this nut, right? They're out here trying to say, like, how can we keep this as gender neutral and as sort of focused on really what we want to do, which is prevent the offensive language, keep the body parts covered because we don't want to allow kids to come to school. I can't understand why a tube top actually would create a combative environment and a chaos environment where people can always keep their hands to themselves. So I think that people are out there doing the work. I don't think this is just something where we have to throw our hands up and be like, let's just keep having conversations about it. People are putting policies in place that I think are good.  

Beth [00:46:33] And just to acknowledge, it's complicated work. For all the reasons that we've discussed, if you get into jurisprudence around schools, courts have a really hard time deciding what school is for purposes of making any kind of decision about what you're entitled to at school, what your rights are at school. It is complicated to have compulsory education, but actually you don't all have to go to a school. But actually once you're in the school, you have some rights, but you don't have others and you're kind of an adult, but you're not an adult. It is very hard. So no disrespect to anybody who is in the thorny middle of this, because it's a lot.  

Sarah [00:47:12] Speaking of a lot. Speaking of fashion choices, communicating things. Up next, outside of politics, we are going to talk about Don't Worry Darling, and the drama at the Venice Film Festival. If you have seen so many headlines playing on the words Don't Worry Darling, or mentioning Chris Pine, Olivia Wilde, Harry Styles or Florence Pugh, and you're like, what is happening? We are here for you. We are here for you at Pansuit Politics. We're going to give you the basics real fast because we think there's lots of interesting things going on here. But if you're starting from zero, Don't Worry Darling it's a psychological thriller about a 1950s housewife whose life is not what it seems. Coming out, I think, in a couple of weeks. Premiered at the Venice Film Festival. It is directed by Olivia Wilde. She is an actress turned director. Her first film, Booksmart, highly recommend. It's hilarious. It was great. It earned a ton of praise. And so this is her highly anticipated second film. It's a very different type of movie than Booksmart.  

[00:48:20] When they first announced it, Florence Pugh, Shia LaBeouf and Chris Pine were said to have starred. Okay, but then pretty quickly, Shia LaBeouf is replaced by Harry Styles. I'm going to argue over the course of this quick timeline that Olivia Wilde made some unforced errors. I think this is the first one. Olivia Wilde breaks up with Jason Sudeikis, who she has two kids with, whatever. That's fine. But she begins a relationship with Harry Styles, her new leading man who replaced Shia LaBeouf. She gets served with custody papers during an appearance for the film. She does several interviews talking about being served with the custody papers and claiming that she fired Shia LaBeouf because he was involved in some accusations of domestic abuse. He then shares screenshots and says that is not what happened. I wasn't fired. And here's the screenshots to prove it. That's the second unforced error, in my opinion.  

Beth [00:49:11] Can I interject one piece on your timeline?  

Sarah [00:49:13] Yes.  

Beth [00:49:14] I think it is significant in understanding what unfolds from here that in some of those interviews she talks about this like she has replaced him in order to protect Florence Pugh. Like she has this real I was taking care of and looking out for Florence Pugh in making this decision. And that unfolds poorly from here.  

Sarah [00:49:39] Yeah. Florence Pugh is like you were not. Don't bring me into this. This was not what happened. Okay. So then I go to the Venice Film Festival. Florence Pugh does not come to the press conference about the movie. She's never really together with Olivia Wilde. Olivia Wilde is also never photographed next to Harry Styles. Lots of questions about her feud with Olivia Wilde. Florence Pugh makes some fashion choices that are very declaratory, I would argue. 

Beth [00:50:03] Which is her vibe. That's not too out of character for her.  

Sarah [00:50:05] Now, there's a hilarious moment where people think Harry Styles spit on Chris Pine. He did not. This was kind of silly. I don't even know why we decided they were feuding. I don't think there was a lot of reason for that. But, anyway, lots and lots and lots and lots of drama around this film and Olivia Wilde, Florence Pugh, Shia LaBeouf, Harry Styles, Chris Pine. Lots and lots of celebrity gossip, and the Internet has just been eating it up with a spoon.  

Beth [00:50:34] I wonder if it would be helpful to say before we talk about this any further, who are you naturally inclined to like in this? If you knew nothing about all of this, who in this cast would you be like, oh, I love that person, or I don't particularly care for that person?  

Sarah [00:50:51] Well, I think the first images that came out of the film festival were Chris Pine popping off photography shots of Florence Pugh like a proud dad, which was adorable. I also think he's pretty charming. But I will say this. Now, before we get into the Olivia Wilde, Florence Pugh situation, I've been trained well by Helen Paterson to question constantly who I'm identifying with in a celebrity gossip situation, because what we're doing here is working out our own shit always and forever when we're talking about celebrities. So I like Florence Pugh a great deal. I think she's sassy in a way I enjoy. But I always check myself to think, like, especially when two female celebrities are involved, wait, what am I doing here? Let me question my motives.  

Beth [00:51:32] So my biases are, number one, I cannot imagine being in a public decoupling from the guy who plays Ted Lasso. I think that sucks. And so I am inclined to feel some empathy and grace there. I also really like Florence Pugh. I liked her in the Scarlet Widow movie, but I came to be a big fan of hers watching Hawkeye the series. Did you watch that one?  

Sarah [00:52:02] Yeah. She's great in it.  

Beth [00:52:03] I did not enjoy that series really at all, except for the moments that she was on camera. I thought she ran away with that. And I feel like she projects such charisma, such a boss energy-- I don't care about what anyone thinks, I'm doing my thing-- that I have to believe that she's just like that as a human because it comes across so strongly on camera. So those are kind of my biases. I think Chris Pine is fine. I don't have any feelings about Shia LaBeouf whatsoever or Harry Styles, other than I think Harry Styles is fascinating.  

Sarah [00:52:39] Yeah, I love Harry Styles. I think he's fascinating. I think Shia LaBeouf is problematic and has been for a long time. But here's the thing. Couple things. Big picture, I love this. I think celebrity gossip is great. I think we work out things. I love this celebrity gossip in particular because it is low stakes. No one is addicted to drugs. No one is harming themselves. No one is harming each other. Like,  it's pretty basic stuff. Like, there's nothing too hardcore going on here. I do think Olivia Wilde made several unforced errors. I do. I really don't think she should have gone on and on about being served papers. I think her and Jason Sudeikis breakup is clearly full of animosity, which happens to the best of us. First of all, I think there is probably some sexism. But if you are the director of a movie, having an affair with your leading actor is a gamble under any circumstances. And so if that's a gamble you choose to make, then the decisions you make after that need to be very careful. And especially in her interviews, I don't think they've been very careful. I think doing the things she did around Shia LaBeouf was when he's such a livewire was like, again, just lots of errors.  

Beth [00:53:46] I think some of this has been so public and not very careful that there's a part of me that's like--  

Sarah [00:53:53] We're doing this on purpose?  

Beth [00:53:53] Did we decide that this was a really good strategy? And just everybody said, okay, I'll go with that. I mean, I'm skeptical of how how much of this is real and how much of it is keeping us all talking about this movie that people say is not that great?   

Sarah [00:54:08] The only thing I'm sort of skeptical about is there's a real authenticity to me about how Florence Pugh is responding. It's ballsy to not show up at the press conference. That was some choices. You had to go through a lot of people and be like, I'm not coming. People are like, you have to come. I'm not coming. And so, to me, it's like she got pushed pretty far to do that because she's had a star run, but she's not Tom Cruise. You know what I'm saying? Like, she's using some capital here.  

Beth [00:54:37] But she's gaining some capital in the process.  

Sarah [00:54:38] She's gaining it, but she's spending some, too. And so, to me, it's like now she might have just decided it's worth it. She made some, again, such sartorial choices that very clearly indicate that she thinks it's worth it. Her clothing choices at Venice were bold and had a real, real, vibe that I dug, for what it's worth. But, to me, it's like still, there's a lot of machinery when you talk about moviemaking at this level. And a lot of machinery you would have to fight to make the choice to like not come to the Q&A and do that kind of stuff and know that everybody's going to report on it. And now, again, maybe she's right enough to refuse to know that the only people think people are reviewing well is her performance and thought, I got some capital to spend here. And now I know she's in Dune Two, which is supposedly the reason she couldn't come, even though Timothée was there. Super excited that she's going to be in Dune Two. I didn't even know that.  

Beth [00:55:29] I think what is fascinating about this is why did this hit? Because this could have easily happened and not everybody talk about it for days. And I feel like because this is low stakes, as you said, we all kind of went, oh, good. I needed something low stakes. I needed something low stakes. I needed something gossipy. I needed something a little cat fighty because we are working so hard and wearing each other out so much with trying to be perfect in a lot of our communications. And I don't begrudge us that effort. We needed that effort. It's good. We are trying to be less mean to each other. We are trying to bring the drama down in a lot of spaces. But there is this piece of our brains, I think, that just needs it set. Like, we just need the drama sometimes. And this is a pretty easy way, especially if they're in on it, which now they are, right? Like, whatever happens here, they are in on it one way or another. And so you kind of feel like, okay, well, this is a soap opera for me. Hurray, let me get some popcorn.  

Sarah [00:56:35] Harry Styles was cracking jokes at his concerts about spitting on Chris Pine. I will say I think part of the reason it hit is deservedly laid at Chris Pine's feet, because he was making faces, he was being meme worthy left, right and center taking pictures of her in the press conference, in the junkets. And so some of it I think is just that his face and the way he was acting was stinkin hilarious. And so I think that's a big reason in combination with how strong her fashion choices were, the stars align. And people are like, oh, it's all here. I love it so much. Also, they're all beautiful, fun to look at, which never hurts. And I don't love the cat fighty part of it. I think that that is one of the most harmful aspects of celebrity gossip culture that is particularly hard on women. And I wish that we could keep the parts that help us work through societal stuff and not do the parts that are hard on the individuals. This maybe going back to the conversation we had on more to say about royalty, but I just think that that part I don't love and I hope that Olivia Wilde-- I wish the best for her. I think she is a good director. I think Booksmart is wonderful. And I like her and I like Jason Sudeikis. I think they're both great artists. I hope they're not miserable and making each other miserable. And I hope the best for their kids because these are real people who had a real relationship and had two children together. And I want the best for them professionally and personally. And so I hope she has the presence of mind to sort of see her way through this and laugh about it ultimately. I guess what I'm saying is I just hope that Olivia Wilde has the best Don't Worry Darling premier available to her at this point.  

Beth [00:58:16] May they all.  

Sarah [00:58:18] May they all. Well, before we wrap up, we do want to say thank you so much for all your amazing feedback on our episode about Quiet Quitting and our interview with Rick Steves. As always, if you love an episode of Pantsuit Politics, please share it with someone in your life. It's how we grow the show. We will be back in your ears next Tuesday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all.  

Beth [00:58:47] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:58:52] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:58:58] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

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