Let's Get Real About the Debt Ceiling

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Jacinda Ardern’s Resignation

  • Alec Baldwin Charge of Involuntary Manslaughter

  • The Debt Ceiling 

  • Outside of Politics: Funerals

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transcript

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Welcome to Pantsuit Politics. We are so glad you're joining us today. We're going to be catching up on the news, including two breaking headlines as we sat down to record today, Thursday, January 19th. And we're also going to discuss the debt ceiling. What is the debt ceiling and why is it such a point of conflict in Congress right now? And at the end of the show, we're going to talk about what's on our mind Outside Politics, which is death and the rituals surrounding it, as Beth and I attended funerals this past week.  

Beth [00:00:52] Before we do, if you are in eastern Tennessee, don't forget that we will be in your area on Tuesday, February 7th, at Maryville College. We haven’t been correct in our pronunciation. Apologies to everyone who was offended by us saying Maryville instead of Murryville. Thank you for the correction. We are going to be the first speakers of the Witherspoon Lecture series. We are very excited and honored to have that invitation. We can't wait to see some of you there. You can purchase tickets through the link in our show notes.  

Sarah [00:01:17] And if you're in a different part of the country, stay tuned, we're going to have additional live events that you can attend. An excellent way to make sure you don't miss any of that information is to subscribe to our email newsletter. We'll put the link for that in the show notes. Next up, we're going to talk about the shocking resignation of the Prime Minister of New Zealand and the breaking news regarding Alec Baldwin. There are two breaking news stories as we sit down to record on Thursday, January 19th, that we wanted to discuss here on the show. Now they are breaking, so these are our initial thoughts. The first being the seemingly shocking resignation of Jacinda Ardern, the prime minister of New Zealand. Now, she's been the Prime Minister since 2017. She was elected at the age of 37 and she rose to global prominence in the aftermath of the Christchurch shooting in New Zealand. She is only their third female prime minister and one of the youngest leaders in the world, and she gave birth while in office. Only the second world leader to do that after Benazir Bhutto. She was re-elected to a second term in 2020, but they're coming up on another election on October. She's not been polling very high. Lots of challenges in front of her coming out of their pretty strict COVID lockdown. And so she said, I don't have enough gas in the tank to do this job. Let's listen to a little bit of her speech.  

Jacinda Ardern [00:02:44] The only interesting angle that you will find is that after going on six years of some big challenges, I am human. Politicians are human. We give all that we can for as long as we can, and then it's time. And for me, it's time.  

Beth [00:03:04] As I've started reading about her, I can't help but think about Andy Beshear, our governor.  

Sarah [00:03:08] And Jacqueline Coleman, our lieutenant governor, who also gave birth a while ago.  

Beth [00:03:11] Yes. A lot of parallels between Lieutenant Governor Coleman and Jacinda Ardern, but especially Governor Beshear because his time in office has been one dramatic, scary, sad conundrum after another. One event after another where there's no good answer. There is just the quest by a person who seems to pretty sincerely care about people to do the best he can with his office. I don't know enough about New Zealand to speak to how well Jacinda Ardern's governing approach matched their culture. But from afar my sense was the same as what I have about Governor Bashir. Maybe every call is not the right call, but I don't question the intention behind it.  

Sarah [00:03:56] Yeah. I think her political reality and the sincerity with which she spoke about her burnout can both be true. Would it be surprising to say a leader who's experiencing intense burnout is also facing a tough re-election campaign? Well, of course. And I think from the beginning she's shown a different type of leadership that's why she connected so much globally. Her enormous care and empathy in the wake of that shooting is sort of what skyrocketed her to global attention. And I think this shows care and empathy and a different approach to leadership. As someone who served in public office, every time a politician comes out and like acknowledges the intense emotional toll it takes and says I don't want to do this anymore, I feel seen, I have enormous respect. And to have given birth while being the prime minister, can you imagine how difficult that is and how many things she missed when she says, I don't have a next step, I just want to be with her daughter and her husband? I believe her. And I don't blame her.  

Beth [00:05:05] I was just reading an analysis in The New York Times about how that global profile has been so harmful to her too, that it has raised the conspiracy theories about her, that it has raised the Anti-covid policy backlash that she's dealt with. I'm certain that her age, her beauty, anything that comes out about her has increased the pressure that she feels. New Zealand is such a unique place in the world that I do want to be careful that I don't layer on a bunch of American assumptions to the situation. But it was really interesting to read this news as I was reading an article about how Nancy Pelosi is so intentionally bringing up Hakeem Jeffries that she's out doing fundraising events with him, that she's introducing him to this donor network, that she said she doesn't want to be the mother-in-law in the kitchen, but that she'll take a meeting with him whenever he wants. And I was just thinking about what age do you want to be when you're in this intense part of being in office? And I have a bunch of different feelings about that. But when you stack up these stories that in her early forties, she's saying, I'm out of gas, this is so hard, it takes so much, I can't do it. And then you look at that retirement from Speaker Pelosi at an age that is more advanced than a lot of people wish that she would have retired, including me. And the stories about whether Biden will run for re-election again at his age, there's just a lot here to reflect on and think about and so many different approaches. And I so admire someone who says this is too serious to do if you're exhausted.  

Sarah [00:06:38] Yeah. Well, and I just think her gender is absolutely going to play a role. As we introduce more diversity into these leadership roles, we're going to see different approaches, including in how to leave and how to say enough is enough. I don't think I'm speaking out of turn here when I say men have not given us the best examples of how to exit gracefully-- except for the rewrite in Hamilton, which we all love, and everybody does have the right to sit under their own fig tree. But even in my own town, Alben Barkley who was the vice president under Truman and this big political presence both nationally and of course locally. I didn't even learn this till recently, till one of my friend's daughters was asking about local history and I look this up. There's this monument in our town, and it has this quote from him that says, "I'm glad to sit on the back row for I would rather be a servant in the house of the Lord than to sit in the seats of the mighty." I'm driven by this monument and read this quote a million times. And apparently the story is he was 78. He kind of wanted to be Senate leader or vice president, but they're like, you're too old, which is hilarious considering where we are now. And then he ended up getting re-elected to the House and he gave this big speech. And that's literally the last line he said before he dropped dead on the stage. That's where the line came from. I wish you could see Beth's right now, it is the full awe mouth emoji. Yes, he dropped dead. This is the line I've driven past a million times and read and I didn't understand the context for this was literally his last line because he just couldn't give it up. I feel like that's the example. So every time somebody else steps forward and says, "No, I'm done, I'm exhausted. I can't just hold on to this power because I have it. I have to be able and willing and want to do something with it, and I can't if I'm too dang tired."  

Beth [00:08:30] And to say I'm too dang tired at a moment in life where you know life is not even close to over. Where she's saying I'm not scared to step back for a while and know that when I want to step forward again there will be something for me. It might not be public office again, but there will be something for me. I think to approach your life with that kind of courage is something that we don't have a lot of male or female examples of. And this kind of means a lot to me, honestly, as I take it in.  

Sarah [00:08:56] Yeah, I agree. We're going to take a hard turn to another story that broke as we sat down to record today's show, which is that Alec Baldwin has been charged with involuntary manslaughter for the handling of the gun that discharged and killed cinematographer Halyna Hutchins on the set of Rust in October of 2021. The movie's armorer has also been charged, and the mandatory sentence for this involuntary manslaughter charge is five years if convicted. Obviously, Baldwin's attorneys have already issued statements saying that he is innocent and he depended on the professionals on the set. They're supposed to pick up filming of this movie again, which I think is a choice I wonder if they'll continue to make considering these charges. But I thought the charges themselves were a little shocking.  

Beth [00:09:48] I gasped when I saw the charges. I just did not realize that there was still an ongoing investigation and realized that this was even on the table. I guess Alec Baldwin at some point had given some statements to media about how he'd been assured that he would not be charged related to her death. I had a hard time with the story when it came out. If you are a relatively new listener, you might not know that I am an accidental killer, that when I was 17 I was the driver in a car accident that that killed another person. No one was at fault in the accident. It just happened. And it was the most horrific and really in many ways defining event of my life. And so when I learned that Halyna Hutchins had been killed on the set, my heart immediately went out to Alec Baldwin. What I know of living with having been part of someone else's death is so intense and so challenging. And this feels even more direct than what I experienced. And so I have sent a lot of love to him coming from my personal experience. I'm not saying that this was the wrong decision. I understand looking at an industry that presents violence extremely casually all the time and having really limited options as a prosecutor about the gun violence that you are just awash in constantly and trying to send a message that people need to be serious when guns are involved, I understand where this is coming from. I just still find the entire situation so heartbreaking for absolutely every person involved that it's hard to know what justice looks like in a situation like this.  

Sarah [00:11:39] The district attorney's statements are pretty forceful and there seems to be after 15 months of investigation, at least, an argument that there was an enormous amount of negligence. And there was some reporting on that at the time. Remember there were people that had walked off the set because they felt like the safety protocols in an effort to save money were not what they should have been. And Alec Baldwin wasn't just an actor on the set, I believe he's also a producer of the film, which means some of those decision making, particularly with regards to fund raising, revolve around him. And I think one of the best things I remember reading at the time this was happening and just the analysis of the industry, which I'm not in, and I cannot speak to, was somebody going like, "Why are we not using special effects at this point? What are we doing?" We have the ability to to create Avatar in the water, which everyone speaks to the incredible special effects. And I know that computer technology can be expensive, but it just seems like isn't that worth it to just eliminate this risk? Just eliminate this risk altogether since we're taking on this risk for what, movies? For entertainment? It feels a lot like some parallels around the conversation around football even; is the risk worth the entertainment value?  

Beth [00:12:57] And when you're doing that kind of risk assessment, that's different than an assessment of individual responsibility, which is different than an assessment of individual culpability and criminal liability. Those are all important distinctions that I think it's hard to sort through, but we ask our jury system to do that all the time.  

Sarah [00:13:18] No, I think this will be an incredibly difficult task before this jury. My one deep and abiding prayer is that the judge in this case does not allow cameras into the courtroom.  

Beth [00:13:28] Yeah, if it goes to trial.  

Sarah [00:13:30] Somebody else involved in the production of the film has already pleaded out I think. 

Beth [00:13:33]  It will be interesting to see how this unfolds because it is about so many things at one time. I personally just would like to put in another vote for ratcheting down the level of violence in film dramatically in all circumstances for lots of reasons, but a significant one being the safety of the people who make movies.  

Sarah [00:13:52] Next up, we are going to talk about the debt ceiling. The debt limit is exactly what it sounds like, which I feel like is so rare in economics. So lay for that, it's just the maximum amount of money the federal government can borrow. Now, this is interesting, and I know you've covered this in depth on More to Say, but the fun history of this is back in the pre 1917 days, Congress had to approve every single issuance of debt. Can you imagine what that would be like now? Can you even fathom if we had to have this conversation every time the federal government borrowed money.  

Beth [00:14:34] We would never get anything done. Nothing would ever happen.  

Sarah [00:14:37] It would be bad.  

Beth [00:14:37] Which does seem to be the goal of some members of Congress.  

Sarah [00:14:42] For sure. So we passed legislation. We made this debt limit. Let's streamline this process. Let's just raise the debt limit all at once. That's what we've been doing with intermittent success for a while. So in December of 2021, President Biden did raise the debt limit to $31.4 trillion. And Janet Yellen came by and said, guys, we're going to reach that on Thursday, today, January 19th, as we were recording this episode. Now, Congress can also suspend the debt limit if they don't want to raise it, and they have done that seven times since February of 2013. But now that we've reached the limit, the Treasury Department can't use what they call accounting maneuvers. Extraordinary measures is what Janet Yellen said she's prepared to do. We're not really sure when those will reach their limit-- the x date when we're done with extraordinary measures. They're moving money around. They're suspending the sale of certain government securities. They're doing everything they can to keep the train on the tracks. And we don't really know exactly when the train reaches the end of those tracks, although most people anticipate it to be sometime this summer.  

Beth [00:15:43] Just to be clear, we are borrowing money to fund legal expenditures. We are funding programs that Congress has already passed, money that's already been authorized, appropriated, signed into law by the president. And so this is what is so frustrating about the debt ceiling becoming a crisis moment when it rolls around. It is not about new expenditures. And the way that it is discussed often sounds like we're talking about new expenditures. It is just borrowing for our present obligations.  

Sarah [00:16:20] So we get these debt ceiling crises beginning in 2011. They often bubble up when there is a Democratic president and a Republican Congress. So this was back in the days of Barack Obama. We all remember it. And those negotiations led to the Budget Control Act, which contained automatic spending cuts if the supercommittee didn't agree to $1.2 trillion in deficit reduction. Beth, I'm glad you're sitting down. I know you'll be shocked to hear that the supercommittee did not, in fact, agree to $1.2 trillion in deficit cuts. So we had these automatic spending cuts in both mandatory programs and military spending. And it was really interesting. There's a lot of writing about the sequestration when it came up, but there's not a lot of writing about once the sequestration came into effect, because guess what they did? They passed three additional bills to lay those spending caps. And that didn't really get as much press coverage. And I mean, there's been some research since that time that it really was harmful to the economy to have these spending cuts in both mandatory spending and military programs. And there seems to be a lot of agreement this was bad, it hurt, nobody liked it. But instead of walking through the last crisis and l how do we decide to deal with it and did it work? We're just careening towards another one.  

Beth [00:17:35] What I think is encouraging about the current Congress (and you have to really want to see it) is that a number of people are talking about doing the appropriations process. The process by which Congress decides how to appropriate money for discretionary spending, not Social Security or programs that are already in place, but the programs that we look at, the very small percentage of the budget the Congress has to decide every year. They're looking at doing that through the normal appropriations process instead of a big omnibus emergency bill at the end of the year. That is the place, if you want to get serious about deficit reduction and eventually debt reduction, to do it. That plus a study of our mandatory programs and figuring out how sustainable our mandatory programs are. The debt ceiling is just not the place. And that's what bugs me. There are several places in our economy right now where I feel like we are having like a Seinfeld version of freak out. Like it's about nothing. All of these stories about tech industry layoffs and and this sense of like, ooo, do the tech companies know something that the rest of us don't know yet? I think the tech companies saw an opportunity to do something that perhaps they've been sitting on wanting to do for a while, and they all moved in tandem. There's momentum in an industry when someone does layoffs you feel like, okay, we can do it now and it's not going to have all the attention on us.  

Sarah [00:19:00] Without sparking a stock selloff.  

Beth [00:19:02]  Right. It looks like you are part of a trend instead of a company in trouble. That's one place. The podcasting industry is having a big freak out right now that I think is mostly about nothing. And the debt ceiling crisis is mostly about nothing because we've already promised all this money. If you think it's too much money, that's fine. Your remedy is not through the debt ceiling.  

Sarah [00:19:25] Well, and that's what bothers me, because we all know if we hit the debt limit and we default on our debt, it's going to be very bad because we are the steady global currency that the rest of the global economy is built upon. So if we start getting shaky and undependable and we're not making Social Security payments or federal employee salaries, everyone can see why that's problematic. And the House Republicans are out there saying, well, our real plan is payment prioritization should we reach the debt limit. To me is banana. So this payment prioritization plan is basically they're like, well, we don't want to default on bond payers, so we'll make sure those get paid with whatever money we have. But if we come up short, we'll just not pay salaries. And first of all, they've talked about this before. The Treasury Department is like, this is not mint, you guys. We can't go in there and just change some of the payment dates. This is the federal government. It is bigger and more complicated than that. And also it's stupid politics because you're going to say we really want to make sure the bond market gets paid before military members? Does that sound like good politics? But it's all this crisis of creation. I don't disagree with you and with some of the House Republicans that the budget process has gone off the rails. I don't think anybody really disagrees with that.  

Beth [00:20:45] No. A lot of Democrats are part of this effort of saying let's do this in regular order.  

Sarah [00:20:50] But your good faith was destroyed when you spent out the wazoo with Donald Trump and ballooned the deficit, but now you want to be the white hats as far as government spending, which is just as problematic as wanting to investigate Hunter Biden while keeping George Santos in your caucus. What exactly are you arguing for? And, to me, what's so problematic about this and what drives me crazy, especially as you dig into the history, if you look at 2011 they used this negotiation tactic to say we really want to streamline the process and we want this budgetary process to make more sense. But really what you did is just create more complications and more obstacles. And when push came to shove and there were really mandatory spending caps and spending cuts, you created even more process to go in there and delay it and complicate it and complicate it and complicate it because you don't want to do the hard thing. You don't want to stand up and look at the American people and say we're going to raise the retirement age of Social Security and cut Medicare and Medicaid. You don't do it. You don't want to do it. You won't do it. You know that's where the cuts come from. You know you're not going to get there with foreign aid and NPR, shut your mouth, but you're not going to do that. Just be honest. Kevin McCarthy is not going to do that. Even if Chip Roy thinks he will, he won't. Give me a break. So you don't really want to cut. Paul Ryan couldn't get it done. I don't think you guys are going to get it done. And so stop pretending like this is what this is about. You just want a moment. They're going to stand up and want stuff like the wall and to cut the IRS enforcement and the Biden administration is not going to negotiate. And so we're going to do this really stupid dance and you're going to pretend like you really care about budget and government spending and you don't. And it's frustrating to me.  

Beth [00:22:29] The question that I would like to see policymakers asking right now about the deficit, is what impact will any shift have at this particular moment in time? A lot of the rules proposed as part of Kevin McCarthy becoming the House speaker are callbacks to previous Congresses led by Republicans. Some of those ideas I don't necessarily disagree with, but I have a number of questions about what implementing them now would look like as we are still recovering from COVID, as we have inflation made up of lots of different distinct issues across commodities and industries and services. There's all this writing right now about whether the Federal Reserve is actually preventing or creating a recession. I just think the economy is in such a fragile, wobbly, unknown place that we can't even predict fully what the consequences would be of defaulting on our debt. And do you want to test that right now? If things were super stable across all sectors and you really want to make a point about this and you think that this is like an existential issue for the United States, maybe I get it. But right now I don't think the debt or the deficit-- and I think both of those things are important. I don't think those are the most pressing issues facing the United States. And I don't think we're operating in an environment where you want to test what would happen if you pushed that domino over.  

Sarah [00:24:04] I just felt like the Republican caucus broke in to no day but today. I mean, their power is shrinking. Their majority status, which was supposed to be a red tsunami, remember, is just tiny. So they're telling themselves, well, if we don't do it now, when are we going to do it? I guess except, again, I don't really think this is what they care about either. I really, really don't. And so I don't think there's any responsible governance present in their speeches or their strategy. I just don't. I am frustrated with the coverage that's turning this into like this is just one more sign of a broken Congress and polarized American politics. I don't think that's fair coming out of the last Congress. And I don't want that history erased for the people who don't pay super close attention to politics. But it's not fair they just passed so much incredible legislation, like, please don't make this about how everything's broken all the time because the last Congress wasn't. And that's the only thing about that coverage that bugs me. But I think it's just going to continue. I mean, this is just going to build and build and build. They don't even know what they're asking for really. And even if they get a short list, I think it is right that the Biden administration refuses to negotiate using this tactic. I don't think that they should. [Crosstalk].  

Beth [00:25:33] What would you negotiate? You can't just invalidate laws that require you to spend money. What is there to negotiate around debt ceiling? Maybe you negotiate some things related to the appropriations process, but that's the problem. This is not the right container for those fights.  

Sarah [00:25:47] But we've shrunk in the containers. They just have so few options because this is not functioning like it's supposed to. That's a bigger procedural problem. And that's what I wish the reporting was. I wish the reporting was this is a procedural manifestation of a broken procedural process. It's not just our polarized politics. I'm not saying that's not a problem, but that is manifesting in the procedures of Congress. And that's what we should talk about. And when I do squint my eyes and find levels of agreement with the likes of Chip Roy, they sometimes can articulate that, I just don't know how much I believe them.  

Beth [00:26:20] And I get that the regular order perhaps doesn't work well anymore because so many aspects of our government are interrelated with one another and so tied up in the private sector. I saw a suggestion this morning that we might see a supercommittee again, that you might have a Joe Manchin-Mitt Romney kind of collaboration of people trying to figure out how to make some progress, especially on mandatory spending. And when I read that, I thought, you know what's missing in that supercommittee process? It's private sector representation. If you want to talk about Social Security and about the fact that we're living longer and we're having fewer children and all of the pressures that our demographic shifts represent, then you need to have a conversation about what work looks like in different stages of life. I have no problem with them raising the age of Social Security at some point. I have a tremendous problem with work, meaning full time, part time or not. The type of work and the amount of work and the conditions under which you are working at 67 should be different than at 40, than at 20. It just should be. And so if you could get the private sector at the table, both small businesses and really large ones, for a discussion about how do we all re-examine what work means for purposes of these entitlements, you might get somewhere. I hope that there's some creativity applied here and that we're not just going to do a retread of something that we've done a million times before.  

Sarah [00:27:50] I like your optimism, but I'm not hopeful.  

Beth [00:27:52] Well, thank you. I do my best to provide uselessly optimistic viewpoints.  

Sarah [00:27:57] We got to keep that hope in mind. We have to keep that vision because their term is two years, but we're stuck with this form of government for the foreseeable future.  

Beth [00:28:06] And government workers are. I mean, this is the thing about the budget. It's easy to talk a big game about wanting the government to spend less money. I do it, but spend less money where? Even if you talk about defense, you're not talking just about bombs and planes. You're talking about education and health care for veterans. You're talking about people who answer phones and drive cars. I mean, it's just none of it is as easy as it sounds when someone's doing a press hit. And that's why it usually stalls out because it's really hard when you start to look at where the dollars are flowing and how that affects everything else.  

Sarah [00:28:39] We will continue to follow this journey as we get closer and closer to the real X date when Janet Yellen and her extraordinary measures run out. Next up, we're going to talk about what's on our mind Outside Politics. Beth, both you and I attended funerals this weekend, and so death and the ritual surrounding it is on both of our minds.  

Beth [00:29:09] Because of what we do, I always want to be able to narrate for myself what's happening in my life. Whether something's great or terrible or in between, it's become sort of a ritual for me to think what's a couple of sentences that would allow me to describe this? And usually that's really helpful to me. It kind of keeps me accountable to the kind of person I want to be. Makes me faster to apologize when I messed up. Whatever. But I feel really lost when I struggle to do it. And I have a couple months of my life now that I can't summarize that way, even for myself. I will just share that Chad's dad passed away on Friday. He had been sick for some time. Even as death goes, this one was pretty complicated. And we have spent most of this week very reliant on the love and support of our family and friends. Sarah, you and Alise and Maggie have been extraordinary in helping me mostly disconnect from work. His funeral was on Tuesday. It was hard and we're all wrung out. And I think that what I mostly took away from that experience that I can summarize in a few sentences here is that I think funerals are so important and extraordinary because they aren't, that this is the ritual we go through when something happens. It also makes them so heavy because it's like you can't just attend this funeral. In some ways, you're attending every funeral you've ever been to as you're attending this one. And it just brings up a lot of stuff and it takes quite a bit of time to process all of that through your body and through your spirit and your intellect. It's a lot to take in.  

Sarah [00:30:59] Yes. This weekend my family said goodbye to my great uncle Joe, who was an incredibly important presence in my childhood, but pretty absent from the last 10, 15 years of my life. After my great aunt passed away, his relationship with our family weakened over the past several years. And as funerals often are, we sort of zero in on one part of the person's life or a couple parts of the person's life and brush past some of the more difficult times. I don't know the wisdom of that. I can see it both ways. I can see just focusing on the positives that you want to celebrate in a person's life, but I have been to funerals that were very affecting because they stood up and were honest, very, very honest in difficult ways about some of the challenges in that person's life. I don't love our funeral rituals in the Christian tradition. I'm just going to be honest. I think visitations are wretched. I was talking to my friend Laura, who is Jewish, and whose mother's funeral is truly one of the most beautiful I have ever attended. I felt like I left that funeral understanding, knowing and loving her mother more, who I loved a great deal already. Just really lovely. And in the Jewish tradition, they don't have visitation. So she's like, what is it again? I was like everybody gets in line and the people grieving stand there and make small talk for 4 to 5 hours. And she was like, who is that for? And I was like, I think it's for the people in line so they feel like they can pay their respects because a lot of people go to visitation, don't go to the funeral. And she was like, that's bad. I was like, yes, I agree. It is bad. It is a bad thing we do. Sitting shiva is so much smarter and wiser. I don't love that. And I think funerals that are often more religious than they are memorializing, sort of sit badly with me. And so I kind of always just get in this like how would I tinker with this if it was up to me when I go to a funeral? Not to say that there weren't beautiful moments at this funeral-- there were. But I think they're so important and it feels like because people are unhappy with them, there seems to be this sort of abandonment. And I don't think that's the answer too. I desperately believe we need rituals surrounding death-- community rituals. And I think we're at this place where the privatization of the funeral industry has been a kindness in many ways. And also we're sort of reaching the end of that road as far as where the benefit outweighs the cost. So every funeral always leaves me thinking deep thoughts about all of that.  

Beth [00:33:48] My dad really focused on getting a chair for Chad's mom during visitation. It was a very long visitation. There was a line out the door the entire time. Chad's dad was a state trooper, and I have never seen the camaraderie and multi-generational connection that exists among state troopers the way that I did at this visitation and funeral. It was really something to behold. But the line was so long, it went on forever hours and hours of just standing up front talking to people. And so my dad kept trying to get Chad's mom to sit down. And I just realized it's because my dad has done this so many times. He knows how exhausting this is. My dad loves people. He loves to chit chat with people. He loves a hug. My dad is the warmest. And even for him, it is exhausting and really hard to just stand and and perform this act when you are the person at the center of the grief. And this is probably a good opportunity for me to mention lots of people have been incredibly helpful to me over the past week, but, man, my parents have been heroes just the way that they stepped in. A lot of our Christian tradition with funerals that you were just criticizing, I completely agree with every single thing that you said there. Role is really essential to figuring out who you are and what you do in this process. And daughter-in-law is a clumsy role at best always. There's always an awkwardness about being a daughter-in-law in almost any scenario. It takes like 10 years for you to not be new anymore when you don't live in the same place especially. But in a situation like this, being the daughter-in-law, the wife of the only son of the person who's passed away, the mother of the only two grandchildren, It's a weird position. And my parents just knew that and stepped in to say, like, you have a team too. You're being a team for lots of people right now, but you have a team too. And that meant the world to me.  

Sarah [00:35:51] Yeah. I mean, I think the places where it's good is where there is that community. And there is a lot of that in the Christian tradition. My great uncle's church invited our family and fed us afterwards. And just that feeling of embrace I think is so powerful and so important. It's just where, like I said, it's sort of been not even ritualized, but just become a process that everybody kind of goes through. Because in that moment, are you supposed to decide if that process fits you or not? That's a big ask for people who are grieving, right? It's something that's hard. And the more we can have conversations and think about it-- I've asked both of my parents and my grandmother like what would you like at your funeral? What's important to you? I think these are conversations we need to have because the more we can (outside of that very intense moment) make these decisions and have these conversations, the better. That's why we so value this community, because you allow us to have these conversations together. And with all of you, we look forward to your comments and insight about this and the other things we talked about on today's episode. We will be back in your ears on Tuesday. And until then, keep it nuanced y'all. 

Beth [00:37:18] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:37:23] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:37:29] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producer (Read their own names) [00:37:33] Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh.  

Beth [00:38:12] Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

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