Chaos in the House

TOPICS DISCUSSED

• Kevin McCarthy ousted as Speaker of the House

• This is So Awkward Talking Puberty and Politics with The Puberty Podcast

• Outside Politics: Frivolous Fun

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EPISODE RESOURCES

• Get your ticket to the Pantsuit Politics Live show in Paducah, Kentucky, on October 21! Get information about our weekend in Paducah here.

• Sarah and Beth are booking speaking engagements for 2024 now. Find out how to bring Sarah and Beth to your organization here.

KEVIN MCCARTHY

• Speaker McCarthy Ousted in Historic House Vote, As Scramble Begins for a Republican Leader (The Associated Press)

THE PUBERTY PODCAST

• The Puberty Podcast on Apple Podcasts 

• This Is So Awkward: Modern Puberty Explained by Cara Natterson & Vanessa Kroll Bennett (Amazon)

• The Instagram Account That Shattered a California High School (The New York Times)

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:10] And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.  

[00:00:33] Welcome to Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. It never fails when one of us is on a break. Big news goes down. This week was, of course, no exception. So Sarah is going to join me from California to talk about Kevin McCarthy's ouster as speaker of the House. And we're very excited to share a conversation in a totally different direction with our friends, Kara and Vanessa from the Puberty Podcast. In addition to an intense news week, we have had an intense week on our premium show More to Say as we've covered the New York judge's ruling against former President Trump for civil fraud. We talked about why Attorney General Leticia James is authorized to pursue those charges. We talked about the current status of all the criminal cases against Trump, including the plea deal reached by one of his co-defendants in Georgia. And we have explored the details of the Federal Trade Commission's and a number of states lawsuit against Amazon. I mention all of this because I'm so proud of the work we do on More to Say.  

[00:01:29] I hear from listeners all the time that we make these very dense, complex topics really accessible without being condescending. And we have a lot of fun in the process. I know there are lots of places where you can get legal and political analysis. I try to take a different approach by offering insight about just exactly what's happening, not what everyone's saying about it, but what is happening, and then fully disclosing my personal opinions. The feedback that we get is truly awesome and I would love for you to join us there. Information on how to do that is in the show notes. When you start listening to More to Say, you contribute in a very important way to the work that we do here at Pantsuit Politics. So thanks to all of you who listen. We'd love for those of you who don't to join us. Next up, Sarah pops in via Zoom to discuss now former Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy.  

[00:02:18] Music Interlude.  

[00:02:29] Hi, Sarah. Rudely, your time away with your kids has been interrupted by the House of Representatives, but I'm glad that you're here to talk about Kevin McCarthy.  

Sarah [00:02:37] But listen, you guys. So relevant. I'm in Kevin McCarthy's district right now, literally on the ground.  

Beth [00:02:45] Does it have a vibe?  

Sarah [00:02:46] Well, let me just tell you the truth. We're in Sequoias National Park, and the news broke and Kevin had lost his speakership as we were entering our first Sequoia Grove. And you know what? A thousand year old tree does not care about a historically short speakership. You know what I'm saying? I heard Kevin was coming home and I thought, Kevin, you need to come to General Sherman, stand in this tree shadow and feel a perspective. You know what I'm saying?  

Beth [00:03:14] I do.  

Sarah [00:03:14] There's a different vibe.  

Beth [00:03:15] I also think he seems fine. He seems free and content. A historically short speakership might have been exactly what he intended to sign up for.  

Sarah [00:03:24] I don't think he intended to be the first one removed in the history of the country.  

Beth [00:03:28] But he knew the possibility. He engineered the possibility.  

Sarah [00:03:32] I guess.  

Beth [00:03:32] I think he wanted badly to have his name on the list and his portrait on the wall. I think he will write a book detailing this time in great detail. He will get paid big speaking fees for the rest of his life. Maybe he'll be on a cable news show at some point.  

Sarah [00:03:49] True.  

Beth [00:03:50] Kevin is going to be fine. I'm not worried about Kevin.  

Sarah [00:03:52] Well, that is what we know about him. The people who speak freely about their interactions with Kevin McCarthy paint a portrait of someone who just wants his picture with the famous people on the wall. And his office is a political survivor. He is the last--  

Beth [00:04:11] A name dropper.  

Sarah [00:04:12] A name dropper. He is the last of the big guns standing.  

Beth [00:04:15] The young guns. Yeah.  

Sarah [00:04:16] The young guns. They [inaudible] a picture of the cover of the book. And I was like three for three. I did realize that often on Pantsuit Politics we talk about bringing our parenting lens to politics. And I realize that harmed me here because I really did want the Democrats to save Kevin McCarthy. I just felt like he funded the government. I was obviously heavily invested in that fight, being on a trip to the national parks, again, because I think I was taking that parenting lens. You tell yourself, well, the punishment and the reward needs to be close in time with the behavior. You know how you do that with toddlers and little kids. Like it's supposed to be close in time. Then I reminded myself this morning that these are not toddlers, no matter what they act like sometimes, that these are adults. And that Kevin, in pursuit of his prime photos, had broken a lot of trust with damn near everybody. And so there was just nobody left standing to come to his aid when it came down to it.  

Beth [00:05:19] I think it's easy when you are not there every day to feel like January 6th is history now. But if I had to go to work every day still with people who I believed nearly got me killed and then lied about what happened, I would struggle to move beyond that and I would struggle to give a vote of confidence to someone who-- I mean, he voted not to certify some of the election results. It's unacceptable. I'm so glad he bought 45 days for more appropriations bills to make their way through. He did the bare minimal right thing in this instance, but I absolutely did not expect Democrats to swoop in and say, "He is the person who should be second in line to the presidency." Absolutely not.  

Sarah [00:06:07]  Well, you don't even have to go back to January six. Let us all remember he just started an impeachment inquiry into Joe Biden. I think the betrayals are fresher. And that's just with the Democrats. I don't think he has a lot of trust, obviously, with his own caucus. And I don't think that it's just the eight members who voted no confidence. I think that he did achieve more than I thought he would. He did prevent the debt ceiling. He did fund the government if it was just for 45 days. And it feels to me like this story coming to the forefront with the first of Donald Trump appearing in court was sort of a good pairing, if you will. It feels like the Republican Party is reaching the end of the road when it comes to playing fast and loose with the truth, and the Fox News approach to politics. And they're running into real consequences when you have open disdain for governance. I just feel like this is all coming to fruition and lots of different places and lots of different ways, not just with Donald Trump, but with what we saw in the House. And we'll continue to see it, it's not like it's over.  

Beth [00:07:14] I think that's right. When you sow chaotic seeds, you bear chaotic fruit. This was both foreseeable and foreseen explicitly. Many people back in January did not think Kevin McCarthy could make it to October. And so for the reaction now that he has been booted to be like, oh, Democrats really should have come on board to keep things stable. They weren't stable. They weren't stable. We just avoided a major catastrophe. But that doesn't mean that things were stable and there was absolutely no guarantee that Kevin McCarthy could get the government funded post November 17th.  

Sarah [00:07:53] Yeah, I'm not going to say I'm not worried about what comes next. I am. Though, when Nicholas started talking about it, he was like, they would have never come to our rescue. And I think that's right. I'm in such a weird mental space, because so many things I wanted for the Republican Party are coming through and it's making me sad and nervous. And I don't know what to think about that. I think it's just I'm invested in a functioning government. That's why I became a Democrat in the first place. And to see this chaos and to see them really just tearing each other limb for limb, I would love the schadenfreude to be pure, but our lots are tied together. That is certainly a thing many members of the Republican caucus cannot see clearly. And I wish that we were at the end of this road as far as natural consequences, but I think we might just be the beginning of it.  

Beth [00:08:44] So many things in life depend on how you frame the question. So I understand that if you frame the question, should Democrats have saved Kevin McCarthy? I can see how you get yourself to a yes on that. But if you ask the question who is fit to serve as Speaker of the House of Representatives, I could not get myself to a yes on Kevin McCarthy as fit to serve in that role. I could not convince myself that he was discharging the duties of that office in any kind of competent or credible way to this point, even as I've tried to give him credit for exceeding my very low expectations, which he has. It is a tough time when the Republican caucus-- and I really want to be specific because Senate Republicans are a whole different animal from House Republicans right now. The House Republican caucus is seemingly more interested in grandstanding drama than accomplishing anything. We have been brought to the brink on the debt ceiling and government funding. And for what? No one's even talking about spending right now. It is a casual facade that this is about government spending. But nobody's putting forth like policies that they really want to attract the American public's attention to. So I think Democrats are kind of irrelevant to this, except in the fact that when you make a vote for who should be the speaker of the House, you ought to vote in a way that you feel really confident about. And I just could not in good conscience get there with Kevin McCarthy if I had to make that vote.  

Sarah [00:10:15] Now, I think it's just hard because it feels like, are you standing on the side of I want a functioning House of Representative or not? But really, that's not the question. It's like you said, it's how you frame the question. It's do you want short term dysfunction or long term dysfunction?  

Beth [00:10:30] Yes, that's right.  

Sarah [00:10:32] It's just the posture of this caucus, of this Republican very slim majority is not about government. It just isn't. I don't mean that to include every single member of the GOP. I don't think that is an accurate representation of every single member's opinions. Obviously, many of them wanted Kevin McCarthy to stay in the job. I mean, you want Kevin McCarthy to stay in the job who went to Donald Trump and Mar-a-Lago after January six and turn the tide against holding him responsible? So what are we really talking about here? Again, for years I've said you cannot have a party that state government disdains. That's the word that just keeps coming to mind. A disdain for the government. There's just such disdain running through that caucus because that is the fuel that powers the engine, particularly Donald Trump's approach to conservative politics right now. You just can't have that be the foundation upon which literally anything is built. It's not a foundation. It's quicksand. And I just feel like that-- it reminds me of the marriage counseling. The four horsemen of the apocalypse of divorce is disdain. And that's what you hear constantly from this Republican majority.  

Beth [00:11:51] And you see that when we start talking about things like keeping the government open and providing aid to Ukraine in the midst of Russian aggression as like democratic priorities, or as favors to Democrats. Those are baseline. I can't believe that there is any dissension among Republicans about funding for Ukraine, given where that party has historically-- like recent history-- been on foreign policy. But the idea that equipping a democratic sovereign nation against an aggressor would be nice to have for Democrats, but we really don't want to negotiate that away. That's bananas. Or just keeping the government open, not having a prolonged shutdown. That is bananas. Even being willing to hold the speaker's office vacant is a national security risk. And it was just a Tuesday for some of them. I mean, it is a really degraded space that we're in with this body. It feels to me like the idea that Democrats should have voted to keep him is trying to get around that instead of walking through it. And I think the through is to demonstrate this is a really degraded situation that we're in and something dramatic is going to have to change, and that is going to rely on voters in 2024 and the kinds of candidates that rise up to challenge incumbents in those offices.  

Sarah [00:13:18] Yeah, I have to believe, even for people who are pretty tapped out of politics who don't pay close attention, the chaotic nature of this Republican majority which is a temper tantrum for things that would never get past a Democratic Senate or Democratic president. I have to believe that will get through, that there will be some impact, that there will be some responsibility. I honestly think as people sort of calibrate around politics and news, which I do think we're going through right now, that there will be a desire for normalcy. Because until a certain segment of the Republican base and particularly even more conservative leaning independent voters decide that they've had enough of disdain, that Democrats aren't such a threat, that liberals aren't such an insane party, that they can see this disdain clearly, that they can say, "Okay, that's enough, we have to have some sort of functioning here," I think we'll be in for more of the same. I don't think that this is going to be historically normal. I think they should say, all right, we're out of historically normal as far as this Congress is concerned. And so what comes next as we learn more about who's running and what ends up happening and if they can get someone elected. It'll be interesting. I think there will be more bloodletting before there will be less chaos.  

Beth [00:14:50] I think that's true. And I have just tried to monitor my own reactivity to news coverage of this because I realize that it is historic. It is bad. There is nothing comforting about it. I don't even feel any schadenfreude. I just think it's terrible that we're here. But I also think it is predictable. And I would have predicted it if I had been asked the question directly. And so I keep telling myself this is a bad place to be, but is it materially worse than last week? I don't think so. And I think that the persuasion work of being a citizen, when you think about going into 2024, really relies on bringing some of the drama down and just being really straightforward about what's happening. Into the extent we heard from a listener today who has a family member who was really upset about the testing of the national emergency system through the phones, and believed that the tone of the emergency test was going to interact in some way with something in the COVID vaccines.  

Sarah [00:15:52] Oh, baby Jesus.  

Beth [00:15:53] Whatever. And so, I said, "You know what I think my response would be? I don't share that concern. But they have told us the window for the test. Why don't you just turn your phone off for that window if it would make you feel better." I don't think we need to be in there, like, "Oh my God, this is so crazy. How could you possibly believe this," space all the time. If I look at somebody like Matt Gaetz, here's my connection to the speaker's fight. This is what I keep thinking about. If I look at somebody like Matt Gaetz and I meet his tone or intensity, even with something factual and reasonable and wise, I think I lose people. So I just am trying to take this in stride and recognize that next week there will be speaker elections and maybe Republicans will come in with a clear favorite and maybe we'll go through 15 rounds again, and maybe it will drag on weeks, and whatever will be with this will be. I cannot control it. And we still have a Senate, We still have a president in place, and we'll just get through it.  

Sarah [00:16:55] I will say that I am with regards to Matt Gaetz sort of reorienting myself. I think I told myself that all of the Chaos Caucus and particularly the machinations coming from Gaetz were about attention, were about PR and energy. But if Gaetz wanted attention, he could just go work for Fox News or Truth Social or whatever. There clearly is a power play involved here. It's more than just I want to get my face on Fox News all the time. And I think if we have to see him clearly-- because I don't think if you'd ask me are they actually going to remove him I would have said yes. I think I would have said no, this is all just for attention. This is just to create chaos and get what they want. And I am reformulating that very now on the ground in real time. I am not anxious to take Matt Gaetz more seriously, but maybe that is what is required moving forward into another speaker's election.  

Beth [00:17:59] I think that's wise. What Matt Gaetz illustrates for me is that the people who have power are the ones who will take it, and he is one of 435 people not particularly gifted, not particularly high in terms of seniority or committee assignment. He has power because he has taken it.  

Sarah [00:18:18] Under an ethics investigation.  

Beth [00:18:20] Exactly. And he is powerful only because he takes that power. And there are destructive ways to take power and constructive ways to take power. And I would like to see, and going into this next speaker's race, some people constructively decide that they too are going to take power here and set the House Republican caucus on a course that they can live with and be proud of.  

Sarah [00:18:43] From your lips to God's ears. In the meantime, I guess I'm going to go stand in the shadows of Sequoias and find some grounding before we get to that circus next week.  

Beth [00:18:53] I'm wishing Sarah and her family the best remaining vacation available to them. Next up, we're sharing our conversation with our friends at the Puberty Podcast.  

[00:19:00] Music interlude.  

[00:19:19] If you've been around a while, you know that Sarah and I have five kids between us, and we see many connections between what we learn from parenting and what we learn from politics. We were delighted to sit down with Vanessa and Cora to see what we can all learn, not just parents, but all of us, about our civic life from puberty. Cara Natterson MD, is a pediatrician and a New York Times bestselling author. Vanessa Kroll Bennett is a puberty educator and writer. Together, they host the Puberty Podcast and have written an incredible new book called This is So Awkward. I will be returning to this book time and again. It is fantastic. Sarah and I tried to take a different approach to the news. We see Cara and Vanessa out there taking a different approach to puberty, and we hope that you will love this conversation as much as we did. Cara and Vanessa, we are so thrilled to have you here. When I posted the cover of your book in my Instagram stories, I heard two separate things. One, I love them. Oh, my gosh, I'm so excited you're going to talk to them. And two, I hit preorder so fast because I need this book, because this is the stage of life we're in and we are lost. So we're thrilled to have you here.  

Cara Natterson [00:20:27] Thank you.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:20:29] Thank you.  

Beth [00:20:30] So I am interested in knowing, because you both have kids about our kids age and older, and I would really love to hear how your older kids in particular are feeling about voting and democracy and the state of our politics.  

Cara Natterson [00:20:45] Okay, Beth, I'm going to start because we had what I can only describe as a tragic conversation at our dinner table in the last week.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:20:57] Partisan hyperbolic at all.  

Cara Natterson [00:20:59] You know what? That is not hyperbole because it was tragic because I have an 18 and a 20 year old. And my 20 year old literally ran to register to vote the second she could when she turned 18. And my now 18 year old turned to us at the dinner table and said, "I don't think any of my friends are going to vote." And then he said, actually, one other really interesting side thing. He said, "Well, for local elections, they might vote, but not national." Which I found fascinating because isn't that an inversion of everything that really happens?  

Sarah [00:21:36] It's such an inversion. Right  

Cara Natterson [00:21:38] So we have this Sunday night dinners with the grandparents and the kids. 

Sarah [00:21:42] Love it. Same.  

Cara Natterson [00:21:43] Yeah, it's kind of an amazing thing and it's sometimes a real headache.  

Sarah [00:21:50] Aren't all amazing things sometimes a headache?  

Cara Natterson [00:21:52] Yes, but the jaw drops that happened around the table. And we started to drill down and we were like, why? And I will tell you that his answer, he very quickly backpedaled. And he's like, I'm not talking about me. Because he understood that this was an unacceptable statement from him. And we feel very, very strongly in using voice as he knows. But he said, "My friends don't feel like their vote matters." And as he started to explain his rationale, some of it had to do with the fact that living in California, it does feel like it's a done deal on the national level and that it's a very blue state. And so if you are going to vote Democrat, your voice doesn't matter because 80 of 90 percent of everyone they know is going to vote blue as well, which we very quickly disabused him of that notion when we talked about what happens when you don't vote. These are smart kids, but they've grown up. They've known 18 years of being told they live in a state that thinks one way and votes one way. And so their lived experience is a little bit different from what mine was growing up in the same state, right? But just you felt more a part of a political system. The other, though, is that he tried to articulate what I can only describe as a desire to get away from the venomous sort of constant fighting and lack of conversation. This generation, the way that teenagers will describe their lived experience to me and to Vanessa is they will say, "We are so mad at your generation for constantly saying to us it's on you to fix the world." No, it is on you to start fixing the world and it is on us to continue cleaning up the mess that you and everyone else have made. And they are right to take that stand. But now they're doubly frustrated because they feel like we, our generation and the boomers, can't even engage in civil discourse. They can't even get to the point where they're talking about the issues and stating what they feel because there are no issues anymore. There's just vitriol. So it's a very long answer. But I think to say that there was devastation around the table when he said that doesn't even begin to describe the emotional response to him saying literally every one of his friends.  

Sarah [00:24:34] Well, I have a couple of thoughts. We've encountered some of this when we travel to colleges. I think there's like two brands of this, two sort of sides of this. One, I think, is we hear a lot of like, I don't want to get it wrong. Like, there's an enormous pressure to do it correctly. And what we always say is maybe you'll get another chance. Like, they'll let you vote again. Like, take the pressure off yourself to feel like you have to get this right, especially in a state like California, where you get an encyclopedia of referendums and have to study. I mean, goodness gracious.  

Cara Natterson [00:25:07] I know. Totally.  

Sarah [00:25:09] That's so complicated. That's so intense.  

Cara Natterson [00:25:11] It's so complicated.  

Sarah [00:25:12] And I think when people say my vote doesn't matter, what I hear-- especially young people-- is my vote is not determinative. And it's this line that I know y'all talk a lot about in your book and on your podcast that you're trying to walk with this age. But honestly it's applicable to all of us, which is this balance of I have a part to play and this is bigger than me. I have this conversation with my 14-year-old all the time. I understand that instinct to say you screwed it up and you need to help us clean it up. But I think how I would shift that and what I'd tell my own son, is we talk a lot about you drink from a well you did not dig. And this is a chain of human progress. And we don't break the chain. There has been progress made across generation and every new generation shows up and says that's not good enough, and I want to continue this progress. And that's your role to play. You don't break the chain. You're not the entire chain. You're not the entire chain, but you are a link in the chain. And trying to see, like I said, that balance which is so hard when you have very legalistic thinking-- that's what I tell myself all the time, legalistic thinking is developmentally appropriate-- to hold that balance between I have a role to play and this is bigger than me. That's why we use the metaphor all the time of like, we're just trying to put good things in the river. Like, we're not trying to dam the river. We're not trying to blow up the dam. We're just trying to put good things in the river.  

Beth [00:26:36] Vanessa, I want to pick up on that developmentally appropriate. When you step back from this conversation politically and analyze it as someone with expertise, as you and Cara have about adolescent development and the puberty process and becoming adults, what do you see in that statement of my vote doesn't matter or I don't think this is important?  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:26:55] I think so often our kids say stuff that they know is going to piss us off or make us uncomfortable or is showing us that they are separate beings from us. This age is all about individuation and they are busy showing us that you don't control me. I am becoming my own person. I am the master of my destiny. They still want to crawl into bed at night and cuddle with you. They still want you to make them scrambled eggs in the morning. They still need you at the end of the text chain during the day when a task goes badly. But there are real moments where they are asserting their independence. And I think politics and ideology are really a powerful way, and not just in this generation, forever and ever in every generation past. Look at our parents and our parents, parents. It is a perennial way for kids to establish their independence and what I grapple with my own kids. So I have three boys and one girl, and my daughter's politics are like right alongside my politics. She's like a little mini me in her politics and ardent feminist and really outspoken. And her brothers are really busy pushing my buttons and pushing her buttons. They think it's hilarious.  

[00:28:19] And I really struggle to find a balance between letting them be developmentally, appropriately jerks to me for their own entertainment. And also saying you know what, there are some things that just are not funny. There are certain jokes that are not funny. There are certain topics that are not humorous, no matter how you want to play them. And that's the balance I walk, is how do I both allow the space for this individuation and this pushback, which is totally developmentally appropriate? How do we make room for them to play with what they're hearing from friends and what they're hearing on social media and kind of processing how they want to react to that? Do they want to take it on board? Do they want to reject it? Do they want to question it? Are they interested in my insight on it or not? And how much do I set boundaries? Like, there are certain things that are just about human dignity and we're not going to joke about those things. And so those are like the spinning plates that I think a lot about in terms of my kids and politics.  

Sarah [00:29:23] Please tell me y'all read that big New York Times piece That was like the Instagram account that broke a high school. Did y'all see that piece about the place in California?  

Cara Natterson [00:29:31] Yeah, it was unbelievable.  

Sarah [00:29:32] It was so good. And we had both of our boys read it because I thought it grappled really well with what role do you play when there is this this drive to how far can I push the humor? How far can I make that out? Like, how much can I poke that? It's outrageous. It's offensive. I'm saying things that aren't supposed to be said that clearly appeals to a certain subset of teen boys. And these kids got expelled for just like liking a comment. And I thought the one part where the teen boy was like, I've really had to think about why didn't I report this account? Why do me and my friends see how far we can push each other, how offensive we can make it? Like, what is the drive to do that? And I don't think they had good answers because I'm not sure there are any. But I really wanted to show my boys another boy grappling with that.  

Cara Natterson [00:30:16] I think there were a few things at play in there at play all day, every day in our world. So one thing is we have a group of adults who are setting rules and enforcing rules. And this group of adults, which includes me and I think all of us, did not grow up with this technology. Even for millennial parents who did grow up with some of the technology, the version that they grew up with was totally different and the interactions were totally different. So it's very hard for the rule makers and the enforcers to not be native to the technology and understand some of the drivers. The second thing is looking at those drivers and looking at the science behind it. So when we talk about developmentally normal, there are different ways of interpreting that phrase. And one is to look at brain development. And so the key to understanding why kids make impulsive and what we often would see as foolish decisions is that the tween and teen and 20 something years, the part of the brain that is most mature and by that I mean it can send and receive signals the fastest is the limbic system, the emotional center of the brain, the part of the brain that feels a high with risk and reward. Even a risk averse kid. And I was a very risk averse kid, and I gave birth to very risk averse kids.  

[00:31:43] But a limbic system is a limbic system, and it is designed to respond to motivating forces and peers. And that is why dopamine fires in that part of the brain when a peer think something is funny. And when an adult doesn't think it is funny, that tween and teen and twenty-something brain is not on fire in the same way. And so if you think about that developmental driver, by the time they're 30, they've got the prefrontal cortex on board. The prefrontal cortex is the part of the brain that can weigh risk and benefit. It can say, "Hey, if I do this, this is actually a bad long term choice for me." That part of their brain exists when they're tweens and teens. They have it. We all know kids in that age group who use that part of their brain every single day, but it sends and receives messages more slowly so that kids who are capable of using those parts of their brain are the kids who are able to give their brains time. Just a few seconds, but time. And so this applies to every single thing about the way they're processing information. And when we talk about what's developmentally appropriate, so often that piece of it is underlying this question. So there's development and then there's neurodevelopment.  

Beth [00:33:01] I have to tell you, my girls saw me reading your book. It's a very striking yellow cover with deodorant on it. It attracted both my eight-year-old and 12-year-old to different degrees, but it was so interesting. My 12-year-old said, "Mom, does that book say anything about the brain?" And I said, "It does. What are you interested in?" And she said, "I just feel sometimes like my brain is fighting with itself." And I was so grateful to have that language. Let me tell you what they said about your limbic system and your prefrontal cortex and you probably are fighting. And she said, "What's the best thing I can do?" And I said, "Well, they have told me you just have to slow things down as much as you can, wherever you can slow things down." But it's so nicely laid out chapter by chapter. Here's the issue. Here's what's different from when you were a kid. And here are some words that you can use. And I was astonished that she saw me with a book that is clearly about puberty and what she wanted to know is what's going on in my brain right now.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:34:04] We talk about it in the book, actually, particularly about the brain development chapter. Kids love the science. They love understanding how their bodies work, how they're going to change, how they are changing, how their friends are experiencing things. I think sometimes adults do kids a disservice and assume they don't care or they don't want to know or they don't want the specifics when sometimes the science is the most comforting kind of information you can give them because it makes them realize, oh, it's not just me. It's not only me who feels out of control or like I'm living on a roller coaster. This is happening to everyone around me. They just show it in different ways or they don't talk about it. And we wanted that reassurance. We wrote the book, it's an adult book, but it's written in a way that really a kid with a high reading level could read excerpts of it or all of it. Because we wanted adults to be able to pull out a paragraph or a section and say, "Hey, let's look at this together and maybe this will make sense to you." I mean, the other thing that we talk about, Beth, in the book that I think is really important when we talk about developmental stages and the brain is that kids brains are sitting in a stew of sex hormones when they're in puberty.  

[00:35:28] And it's not a sort of gentle lake with very few ripples of sex hormones. It is like a tsunami, ocean of sex hormones where it's rising and falling and it's unpredictable and it's super confusing and worrying to the kids living it. Like, why can't I stop crying? Why can't I stop laughing? Why do I feel so angry? Why do I not want to talk to anyone in my life, even the people I love? And so normalizing for kids like, hey, you're not trying to be disruptive or you're not trying to be a joke. There's actually chemical stuff going on in your body that's making you feel this way and react this way. And that's okay. And I'm going to help you through it. And giving kids the empathy also. Like the temptation with kids this age to just be like, ugh, they're just being such a jerk. Like, they're just like purposefully being rude or disrespectful or silly or whatever. No, they cannot always help it. And we need to be on board with that and have some empathy for it and support them through it and explain the science so they get it also.  

Sarah [00:36:38] Well, and I think exactly like you said, understanding it through that lens is so empowering to them.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:36:44] Totally.  

Sarah [00:36:46] One way I encourage my children to slow it down is I say, "You can borrow my prefrontal cortex, so just take a minute and think, would this piss my mom off if I did this? What would my mom say? Just channel my prefrontal cortex." I literally had them practice one time saying, "I'm sorry, guys, my mom's a bitch. She'll kill me if I do that." Like, say it out loud, boys. Practice saying it.  

Cara Natterson [00:37:05] That is a great strategy.  

Sarah [00:37:07] Make me the bad guy. I don't care what your friends think about me. Give me a break.  

Cara Natterson [00:37:10] We don't need to be loved by their friends. And we could be [crosstalk] every single time.  

Sarah [00:37:16] And I think the nervous system too. They'll come to me spun up and I'll say, "Look at me. Am I anxious about this? If it's time to freak out, I'll let you know. This is not it." I'll let you know. Don't worry about it. And I think just having that check in, like you said, like that sort of third eye that they teach you in like meditation. Or I remember reading one time that people with OCD, if you give them a brain scan, they can literally just look at it and say, "This is what's happening in my brain right now when I want to engage in these behaviors." It's super helpful. It's just that step out in a way so that you can perceive what's happening is so empowering. And, look, the reason I think this is relevant to what we do here is because it's not just teenagers. Everybody's limbic system gets fired up. And when you see it in adults, you're more sympathetic to teenagers. And when you see it in teenagers, you're more sympathetic and recognize in adults. When they're hungry. When they're in a mental health crisis. When they're stressed. All these different things can fire up our limbic systems and make us emotional and impulsive and mean. Go to an airport. You can see it all day, every day. I just think once you can start to see that-- I'll say to my 14-year-old sometimes, he'll start pushing, he'll get that angry, you can just see it wash over him and I'll say, "Hey, can we skip to 5 minutes from now when you realize you're being hateful?"  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:38:37] And what does he say?  

Cara Natterson [00:38:38] Does it work? 

Sarah [00:38:39] It freaking works.  

Cara Natterson [00:38:39] Okay.  

Sarah [00:38:39] He'll do it. Now, this is my most emotionally available child, I would say. Now he's older, but he'll he'll say, "Okay, yeah." Because I'll go, "We're on the same team here. We don't have to fight. And so I can come back at you and we can do this for 15 more minutes until we're both apologizing or better idea, we just skip all of this." Because he's funny enough. I remember one time when he was like 12 or 13 and he started doing the, "I don't know." And I said, "Hey, I don't want to do this. I don't want you to be the I don't know kid. I don't want to be the nagging mom. Can we just strip that out of your vocabulary and just not do the I don't care, I don't know?" And he was like, okay. He doesn't want to be the stereotypical teen either. And it's like if you just give that off ramp, that moment to just take a breath. And it's works with adults too. This is exactly what we teach people and talk about with political conversations.  

Cara Natterson [00:39:35] And it does strike me that the place where politics has really devolved is that oftentimes one camp is just using their limbic system and one camp is just using their prefrontal cortex.  

Sarah [00:39:47] No one's talking to each other.  

Cara Natterson [00:39:48] No, because you can't talk in the heat of the moment. And in looking all the way down the road, you have to have conversation that connects both parts of the brain. And we assume adults are going to have 'adult conversation'. And what that means is using both the here and now and the future cast. But it doesn't always happen.  

Beth [00:40:08] When you are talking stories about teen mental health, we've talked a lot here about the studies, about what Instagram does to girls, what social media is doing to everyone's body image. What do you think is missing from the analysis that you see out there about these issues?  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:40:26] So we think a lot about this, partially because with any news story or any kind of popular body of research, we're always curious about what's not being told. And often the upside is not being shared. So one thing we think a lot about is what is the upside of social media for kids well-being? And we do actually believe there is upside, particularly for kids who are LGBTQ+, who are living in communities where they can't have in-person community of kids like them. For kids who are a racial minority where they live, who may not have in-person community that way. So those are two examples of underrepresented in studies about social media and mental health. We also don't believe in fear mongering. We don't believe in catastrophizing. We believe in constructive, positive ways forward. Do I think there are real dangers for adolescents and social media? Yes. Do I think that kids are really struggling with their mental health before COVID and now after COVID? Yes. So we're not dismissing that. But we want to hear the other side of the story and we want to look at the positives. So for your perspective, the ability for kids to be activists and to be politically involved using technology and social media, the benefit for kids mental health of being involved in their communities, of giving back and not just being recipients in a community is super important. We've talked about that on our podcasts. I think there are really valuable ways that it can be used and mine. I think the hardest part about kids and mental health right now, particularly as it relates to social media, is for so many of us, it became a way to not have to watch our kids. It became a way to kind of get a break from parenting and sort of like respite for us and a sort of an escape for kids. But the problem is it actually requires a ton of vigilance for kids to have healthy relationships to technology in order to protect their mental health. And so we have to kind of completely rethink how we parent kids through technology in order to care for their wellness, for their sleep and all of those things. And that's the part that I think feels hard. It was supposed to be like a babysitter, essentially, but instead it's like the fun aunt or uncle who you should really only get in small doses and then it's time to come home.  

Cara Natterson [00:43:08] And let me just jump in and say there is tons of data to back up where Vanessa and I land here in terms of our opinions about this balance, especially when it comes to social media, although it's screens in general. But there's a ton of data that looks now at marginalized communities and the upsides of social media. That said, we are data nerds and we like to look at every study that comes out and try to figure out what the biases are and what the holes are. And one of the holes that Lisa Damore, who's incredible psychologist, talks about and we totally agree, is when you look at the Youth Risk Behavior survey that came out recently that put new numbers on to the mental health crisis. Alarming numbers. Forty percent of all the kids who are between 13 and 17 who responded to the study were identifying as anxious or depressed, at least for two weeks in a row. If you break down by gender, it's 60 percent of the girls. If you look at marginalized communities, the LGBTQ community that they identified in the study was 70 percent. Okay, these are huge numbers and they're alarming numbers. But then you pull the lens back and you have to go, okay, when was this study done and how was the study done? Well, the study was done in September, October and November of 2021. I live in Los Angeles. My children had been out of school already for a full year and they weren't going back. And some very large number of respondents in this study were in the same place. This was done at a very unique moment in time. And so you have to kind of way that in the responses that you're seeing and in the headlines that are being generated. This is not to minimize what is clearly a mental health crisis, but a year into a pandemic where kids were not able to socialize in any normal kind of way. With that data coming out two years later, we need to contextualize. So it gets complicated. The answer about mental health is very complicated and ever changing.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:45:16] I also think how we help kids make sense of the world can affect their mental health and the sense of stress that they are living under. So between gun violence and another upcoming presidential election, and climate change and socioeconomic issues from food insecurity to housing insecurity. I mean, they are living in a world where they get constant streams of news and information directly to their phone without a filter. It's not like families are sitting around watching the news every night together and discussing it. Kids are getting stuff all day long, and how we help them make sense of the world can help regulate how much stress they're taking in and how much they're able to filter, not to block it out and say, "Oh, this doesn't matter, I don't care about this." But we do know that they can both appreciate. I mean, this is what you guys do all day every day. They can both appreciate what's happening in the world without internalizing so profoundly that stress and worry into their own existence on a constant basis.  

Sarah [00:46:26] And we have to be good examples of that for them as adults. I think that's really, really important. Like, the LoL nothing matters is my personal soapbox right now. Because I think it's such a harmful vein of sort of-- and not even analysis. It's like humor and means on the Internet that I get. And I think we all kind of chuckle and they definitely scratched an itch, particularly during the pandemic. But I do worry that it's hardening into a narrative that's really damaging for our teenagers in particular that are going out into the world, if all they hear from the adults in their lives is the world's a dumpster fire. Because I don't believe that. That's not how we function here at Pantsuit Politics. And I think that is a really sort of harmful frame to put on everything, because I always think about teenagers are going through the amount of changes like a toddler. The brain is changing at the pace a toddler is. And what toddlers need from the adults in their lives is that stability, that sense of like I know all this information is coming at you in a really scary way, but I promise you I'm in control and everything's okay. And I think teenagers need that too. They need these adults, these stable voices that say, hey, we got this. We might not have the answers right now, but we will figure it out together.  

Cara Natterson [00:47:38] And they need rules.  

Sarah [00:47:40] Word. Preach that gospel.  

Cara Natterson [00:47:42] Let's just be clear.  

Sarah [00:47:43]  People are like, I don't know what to do they're 16 years old. Like, that is a baby. That's a baby you have at your house. That's not an adult. That's a baby. Wears me out. 

Beth [00:47:53] While we're talking rules and personal soapboxes, I love that you have a full chapter of your book on sleep. I honestly believe that when we think about the reason that a presidential election goes on a list that includes climate change and gun violence, it is because we are not sleeping enough. If we were sleeping better, we would behave ourselves. You know what I mean? We can do better than this. So talk to us a little bit about teens and sleep, please.  

Sarah [00:48:17] And basically adults too, because everybody needs to hear this.  

Beth [00:48:20] And adults too. Everyone needs more sleep.  

Sarah [00:48:22] Everybody go to bed. Go to bed.  

Cara Natterson [00:48:25] Okay. Let me just say 20 chapters in the book there is not one thing we say in the book that does not apply to adults. And that is a very important frame to give kids, because if it's us telling them what's good for them, the pleasers are thrilled to just go, "Oh, okay." But the non pleasers or the rebels go, "Okay, well, if it's not true for you, then it's not true for me." So all of this is true for everyone. Sleep is the magical elixir, but it's not so magical. It's very well understood at this point. We file our memories when we sleep. We decide what to store short term, what to store long term, and what to throw away. That makes a kid perform better in school. It also makes us perform better in life. Okay, so number one, memory. Number two, sleep resets your metabolism. This is a huge one that many, many adults don't appreciate that the hormones that regulate how hungry we feel and how we burn through our calories and those hormones are called leptin and ghrelin. Those hormones are on a seesaw and they go up and down. And one goes up and one goes down when you're awake. And then when you're asleep, they raise up in the other direction. And so when people don't sleep enough, the two hormones, leptin and ghrelin do not reset in the proper proportions to one another. And therefore the next day-- this is all very short term, but the next day the body doesn't trust them. It is very hungry and eats more and it stores a lot of the energy that you feed it in the form of fat because it doesn't trust you and it needs to pack away that fat for a future day.  

Sarah [00:50:12] And also, no one anywhere needs a hungrier teenager.  

Cara Natterson [00:50:16] Holy moly, No.  

Sarah [00:50:17] No one.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:50:18] And a hungry, tired teenager is just...  

Sarah [00:50:20] No.  

Cara Natterson [00:50:21] And hungry. Okay, so there's a big metabolic component. Then there's the mood component. Who among us has not woken up in just a raging, awful version of themselves because they did not sleep well. Even if they slept, they did not sleep well. I always use the example of when I take a red-eye flight. You know those horrible five or 6 hours of not sleep? Yes. We all know that. You get off the plane and you feel edgy and almost buzzy. You know that weird sort of tactical feeling? 

Sarah [00:50:58] I have to tell you, when my children were babies my husband had a rule. Anything you said after 1:00 a.m doesn't count. You can't count it.  

Cara Natterson [00:51:05] Totally.  

Sarah [00:51:05]  Can't count it.  

Cara Natterson [00:51:06] Totally. And the corollary rule is nothing good happens after 11:30. Okay. That was a big world when my kids were in high school. So you've got metabolism, you've got mood, you've got memory. And then for kids, here's the extra bonus, is you've got growth. So growth hormone is released in a pulsatile fashion, so it rises and falls and rises and falls. But the way it shifts its pattern when you are asleep tells the growth plates at the end of the bones to grow. And so for kids who are looking to grow, they grow when they sleep. And for kids who are growing, any parent who has been through this knows a growing kid is an exhausted kid. And this is why it's very much a virtuous cycle. Growth hormone is really important for the adult body as well. It just doesn't make you grow.  

Sarah [00:52:00] Listen, I have a type one diabetic child. Growth hormone rises blood sugar.  

Cara Natterson [00:52:05] One hundred percent. That's right.  

Sarah [00:52:06] I can tell you what growth hormone is going on in my eight year old. It's bananas, you guys. It's like two units of insulin. That's a lot of insulin. It's wild.  

Cara Natterson [00:52:15] You are raising an interesting issue because in that one example, you have a body that is often being monitored all the way through the night. And in order to keep blood sugar regulated, sometimes you have to interrupt sleep in order to wake them up, to keep their blood sugar up. And in order to do that, you're constantly aware of that balance, right? So I am so with you, Beth. I think if everyone slept more and slept better, we would make different decisions in this world. We would behave differently. And there are minimums and people have talked themselves out of the minimum needed sleep. And it is bogus. So you can tell yourself the story you want to tell yourself about how you only need four or 5 hours of sleep. But that is simply not true.  

Sarah [00:53:03] The people who say that, it is all I could do not to laugh at their face.  

Cara Natterson [00:53:06] Well, you actually can. You have my blessing because they are wrong. They are wrong.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:53:12] And one of the ways to ensure this happens in your own home is to make sure that devices are not charged in the bedroom.  

Sarah [00:53:22] Your room included, guys. That includes you.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:53:25] Yes, your room included. Model what you want to see in your own house. I did a session with 50 middle school girls and we were talking about social media and self-esteem. And I said, number one rule is get your device, get your phone out of your room at night, because the temptation to sit there and scroll through social media or beyond that group chat till one in the morning is not good for you. You need sleep and you don't want to go down the rabbit hole. And they were like, but what if? And they would come up with a scenario and I'd be like, okay, well here's a solution to that. And they'd be like, but what if. I'm like, no, here's a solution to that? It is so, so important that devices get out of the room. It is the most important way to protect kids sleep once they have devices in their hand. I am a believer in sleep more than anything else. And my kids are convinced because they're disproportionately large to what their genetic information might have caused them to be. And they're like convinced because I was so obsessed with making sure they slept that they're bigger than they were meant to be. They're not going to be bigger.  

Sarah [00:54:34] Let me tell you, if I owned an alarm clock company, my ad campaign would be "Buy an alarm clock, save America. By an alarm clock. Solve the anxiety crisis in America." Like literally the ads right themselves.  

Cara Natterson [00:54:52] We should do a collab.  

Sarah [00:54:53] Seriously.  

Cara Natterson [00:54:55] We will start that company with you.  

Sarah [00:54:56] We should. We should sell alarm clocks and that should be our ad campaign. Because they're like, well, how am I going to wake up? Friends, there's alarm clocks.  

Beth [00:55:03] We'll continue the conversation with Cara and Vanessa right after this.  

[00:55:06] Music Interlude.  

[00:55:24] In addition to this new joint venture which I'm into, if you are listening to this conversation and you're like, okay, as a parent, I have not prioritized sleep and we got some habits that are going to need to change and you have a 15 year old, talk us through a reset.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:55:44] This is my favorite thing to do.  

Cara Natterson [00:55:47] Vanessa's going to play with herself.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:55:51] It is the relatable yet firm boundary that you are about to set with your kid, and it starts with admitting that you messed up. So it sounds something like this-- now, your intro may depend. So it's a 15-year-old. Okay, so you're not going to say, "Hey, buddy," and you're not going to say, "Hey, kiddo," because they'll probably walk out the door the minute you say that. You could say, "Hey, dude," but probably not.  

Sarah [00:56:20]  How about bruh?  

Beth [00:56:22] I couldn't. They would never believe that from me. I guess you have to listen to yourself, right?  

Sarah [00:56:26] Bruh.  

Cara Natterson [00:56:27] Bruh is a reaction. It is not a salutation, bruh.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:56:31] Bruh is a reaction I get when I'm being mocked by my teenagers. But you would say, "Listen, I messed up. When you hit high school and you had your phone, I didn't set the rule that the phone needed to be outside of your room and that's on me. And I'm the adult and I should have known that and I didn't do that. But now I listened to this podcast and I read this book and it is like so clear to me that your phone should not be in your room when you go to bed. And I'm going to reset the rule. I'm going to take a do over and we are going to have you charge your phone outside your room and we can talk about what time you should be off of it and how much time you should be off of it before you go to bed. And I'm happy to be in conversation with you about all of those things. But the one thing that is not negotiable is that the phone is out of your room when you go to bed."  

Cara Natterson [00:57:22] And maybe if you're willing. Because this will be even more effective to say, "And I'm going to do the same thing."  

Sarah [00:57:27] My phone is plugged in my closet. My 14-year-old brings his phone every night before he goes to bed. He plugs it in right next to my phone. He says goodnight. Like, that's our nighttime routine. He comes and plugs his phone in my closet. I love it.  

Cara Natterson [00:57:40] My 18-year-old still does it.  

Sarah [00:57:43] Yes.  

Cara Natterson [00:57:43] He loves the break. Grateful for the break. Now, mind you, their computers have text-- any device.  

Sarah [00:57:53] I don't do any screens in the bedroom at all. I'm like, there should not be a screen in your room when you're sleeping.  

Cara Natterson [00:57:59] One hundred percent that is correct. So don't kid yourself. If your kid is negotiating and splitting, no, it's the whole kit and caboodle and your whole kit and caboodle.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [00:58:06] But by the way, like, if you've been letting a kid sleep in their room with their device, you're still a good parent, you're still taking care of your kid. You still love them. We all screw up all the time. I've had a week where, like, I don't have enough hands, fingers, toes, ears, appendages to count how many times I've messed up this week. Like, it's okay. We are still doing the best we can, but it doesn't mean the horse is out of the barn. And I hear that phrase all the time from adults about technology. As you said, Sarah, we are still the adults. They are still developing. They're still growing. It is still our job to set and reset and reset boundaries and rules. And it can work. It has worked in my house. It's worked in Cara's house. We've worked with thousands of kids and families across the country and they get it. But be respectful of their intelligence and don't pretend you know it all and admit that you've made a mistake. Kids love nothing more than when adults admit to having messed up. It's like the ultimate.  

Cara Natterson [00:59:14]  I had a friend, a very close friend from high school, tell me just last weekend your kids are just easier. And I thought, that's so interesting. No, they're really not. It goes back to the idea that everyone feels safer with some guardrails.  

Sarah [00:59:29] Yep.  

Cara Natterson [00:59:30] Every one. I don't want to walk along a cliff without one.  

Sarah [00:59:35] Well, and you know what really connected with my 14-year-old one time when I put Bark on his phone, he was not happy with me. And for those of you who don't know, Bark reads all the text messages for certain triggers, bullying, alcohol use, all kinds of stuff. And I said, "Hey, I cannot cede parenting in this entire space. I cannot say I'm not going to parent you online. That would be unfair to you. It would be malpractice." I can't just say, here's this whole space that you are living a lot of your life as a 13-year-old, as a 12-year-old, as a 14-year-old and just go, "But I guess I'll just hope it turns out okay." This is a huge part of all of our lives. And so that means I have to parent you and this part as well.  

Cara Natterson [01:00:21] We put Bark on our kids devices. And by the way, if you opt to do something like this, you just tell your kids. You never zing them with it. And I'll tell you where it landed, which was after about a year of having it on there. It became really fun at the dinner table to laugh about the things that Bark was picking up because it was overly sensitive.  

Sarah [01:00:41] Yeah. I do like, text your grandma about a flu vaccine. It's like medical jargon.  

Cara Natterson [01:00:46] Correct. And it's like, danger, danger. And so we could laugh, but it was a conversation starter. And it was a great way to open it up. And then at a certain point, just like everything else in the life of raising a child, you change your own rules. Your kids evolve past it, they grow up, you don't need certain things. And we always say bigger kids, bigger problems. And that's not to be dramatic, but the focus shifts. And so for you to acknowledge this is not an arena where I'm an expert, I don't feel great about it, and then to be able to laugh about where they're getting it right and where they're getting it wrong is a great way in.  

Beth [01:01:22] Well, it's also a political act to show your kid, I got new information. I changed my mind. That's a really important skill that I wish more adults had. I got new information. I changed my mind. It's okay. It's not only okay, it's what we want to do. We want to grow as people.  

Sarah [01:01:37] I laughed when you said I listened to a podcast or I read book because that is like you know that reel where they're like the mom rolling into the room with a garbage bag. That's like me. If I roll in and say I read something, my all my family runs for cover, they're like, no.  

Cara Natterson [01:01:53] My mom still sends us newspaper clippings of articles she wants us to read and we're all middle aged. 

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:02:02] But I think, Beth, I think that's a really important point because people don't only say I have new information oftentimes when it comes to talking to kids about puberty in adolescence. They avoid the question altogether.  

Sarah [01:02:15] Yes.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:02:16] And it's really similar with politics where people want to duck and cover and leave the room rather than engage in a constructive way. And so in the same way that when a kid asks you about like a political situation, like my nephew the other day was like, "When is the war in Ukraine going to end? I don't understand why it's still going on." The same question can be asked like, "Hey, when am I going to grow?" And the answer to both of those questions is, I don't know. And I wish I could tell you and I wish I could reassure you but, kiddo, I don't have the answer to that. And I sure wish I do. Let's see if we can get a little bit of information. Let's see what the latest news is about the war in Ukraine. Like, let's look at how much you grew last year and let's think about whether that's on the upswing. But it's really hard when the answer is, I don't know. But sometimes that has to be the answer and it's tough.  

Sarah [01:03:14] But you know what else? You're not really avoiding it. They can smell your hesitation from one feet away. They can smell your lack of confidence. Again, same in political conversations. The second you feel a weakness in your argument and you try to double down, people are finely tuned to that and so are teenagers.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:03:32] I mean, the biggest topic that we hear from adults that they desperately try to avoid is porn. That is the one that parents are just like, I froze. I was paralyzed. I asked them if they wanted ice cream. I did not know-- talking about a non sequitur, I did not know. And so part of us is encouraging adults to go back and be like, "Hey, you know when you asked me about porn and I asked you if you wanted ice cream? I'm going to try this again."  

Sarah [01:04:04] I will like a do over.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:04:05] Yeah, I would like a very big do over. I'm going to give it a shot. And I'm so nervous and my armpits are sweaty and my hands are tingling. But this is so important that I talk to you about this, so I'm going to give it a shot. And that act is also really, really important. Just like as you said, Beth, I have new information or I blew it or this is so important that I'm going to sweat through my discomfort to have this important conversation with you.  

Beth [01:04:35] Well, get that book. There's a whole chapter about porn that is super helpful. There is a roadmap to talking about all these uncomfortable issues, section by section. It's wonderful. So I wanted to ask you, because Sarah and I have this practice of let's get out of here it's just people, not political analysts. And so I want to ask you as moms and professionals who focus on kids issues, what's your version of that? How do you hang on to a self that isn't just attached to thinking about kids and development and parenting?  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:05:08] I really love to read what some people might deem trashy novels.  

Beth [01:05:13] No one here would [inaudible] in on that.  

Sarah [01:05:15] We do not use that kind of language around here.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:05:19] I love to watch romcoms, but I really love feminist but "trashy" books to the point where I actually there's a very.  

Cara Natterson [01:05:28] Trashy feminism.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:05:29]  I mean, it's classy, trashy feminism. There's a Regency romance novelist named Sarah McClain, who is also a very active politically. She's an incredible person, and I rely on her for my mental health so much as a balance to everything else I do because I read a loss of virginity scene in one of her books that was so spot on that I DM'd her. And I was like, "Hey, can we send you a copy of our book? Because we talk about how to talk to kids about sex, and I love this scene in your book. And she wrote back and she was like, "Oh, I h"ave a nine year old. Absolutely. Send it my way.  

Sarah [01:06:08]  Wow.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:06:09] Even though it ended up intersecting, I do fine. That's my release. I need to let my brain go. I need to stop worrying and grappling and thinking about all this stuff because it's hard when your work and your life intersect and overlap so much. You guys deal with this all the time.  

Sarah [01:06:29] Hard but rewarding.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:06:30] Hard but rewarding. And I wouldn't do anything else, and I love it. But I do sometimes just need a break and something completely different.  

Cara Natterson [01:06:40] So Vanessa's answer is more fun. But Vanessa is the fun one [inaudible]  

Beth [01:06:46] We're familiar with that dynamic.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:06:48] You're fun to Cara.  

Cara Natterson [01:06:49] Yes, I know. I mean, we see each other on this zoom screen. We see each other and I'm fine with you. I become a meditator, and it has changed everything for me to the point where my children be like, "I don't think you meditated today and you should probably go up to your room."  

Sarah [01:07:11] Oh, no. I do not like it when they do that. I do not like it when I tell them to do good habits and then they notice when I do not do the good habits. I find it very disrespectful.  

Cara Natterson [01:07:20] I love it because I'm like, "Oh yeah, I am taking my 12 minute break right now to go clear my brain." And when you learn how to do it, different people practice different forms of meditation. But really what it is, is ultimately the ability to do what you're asking us, which is just to shut down certain parts of your mind. And it's not to clear the whole thing, it's to allow other parts to just be more active and more open. And I am a better, happier person. I am a more grounded person on the days that I meditate. And it is palpable. My family notices. And then I'm like, "You guys should all meditate." And they say hard pass. And I just don't understand that.  

Sarah [01:08:04] Yeah, they're like peace out.  

Cara Natterson [01:08:06] But that is the gift I get myself as often as I can.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:08:09] What are your things? Like what are your escape patches?  

Beth [01:08:14] Well, similar to Cara, I do yoga. And I have found that 15 minutes every morning of yoga is much better for my life than going to, like, an hour long class twice a week. It is the small, focused break, and I really like starting my day with it .because then I can like go into my day with some intention about it instead of just falling into it. So that just easy, simple morning practice is really valuable to me.  

Sarah [01:08:44] Currently under construction because I do all those things. I have a pelaton I love. I am a prolific reader. It definitely does exactly what you described. Gives me a break for my own brain in a really helpful way. But I told my husband the other day because we don't drink, we're like really cleaning up our diets because I'm trying to be a super centenarian over here and live to be 110 to 120. So I'm cutting out all the fun food and I'm like, we've got to figure out a way to have some fun and also self-improvement. And maybe I don't. Maybe the fun should always be self-improvement. And we we love to be outside. That does not feel like I'm checking something off when we go for a hike. We are big, big travelers. And travel is probably the number one answer. For me that doesn't feel like I'm improving myself. It just feels like I'm having fun and enjoying my life. It's not a chore. It's just something I'm fully present in a way when we're traveling that I find really, really-- but it's also like you're solving problems. Like, there's always problems to solve when you're traveling, but it's a very present type of problem solving that I think is really beneficial. But I tell myself, like, we've got to figure some-- I'm looking for some good, frivolous fun. You know what I'm saying?  

Cara Natterson [01:10:08] When you find it, will you let us know?  

Sarah [01:10:09] Yes.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:10:11] I feel like all of my efforts towards self-improvement are about my kids. Like I'm not at the stage yet where I'm self improving just for my own sake. I feel like it's all wrapped up in how it helps my kids or my parenting or my family.  

Cara Natterson [01:10:28] I don't feel that way.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:10:29] You don't?  

Sarah [01:10:30] Yeah, I don't feel that way. I'm an only child. I do things for me.  

Cara Natterson [01:10:33] Yeah, well, Vanessa, you should meditate.  

Beth [01:10:35] This has shifted for me in my forties because I've just taken a different view I think in my forties. Now I'm like, what can morning Beth do for evening Beth? what can Saturday Beth do for Wednesday Beth? what can 42-year-old Beth do for 52-year-old Beth. That's what gets me to Jazzercise. I do not like to exercise. I do not like my heart rate to accelerate. I do not like to sweat, but I go to Jazzercise because I'm like, "This is 42-year-old Beth's gift to 52-year-old Beth. Not about my kids. It's just about later me. And that helps me a lot.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:11:06]  I do exercise and I am cutting back on alcohol and I am eating better. But I don't know, I feel like the really heavy thinking is always about my kids--  

Cara Natterson [01:11:17] It's cause you have so many.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:11:20] I know. Well, I do. And I also like people who say like, "Oh, just wait till they get older." Those people are right. Just wait till they get older. It's physically exhausting when they're little, but it is emotionally so intense when they get older. And sometimes my husband just looks at me and he's like, "When does it end? Like, is it ever going to end?"  

Sarah [01:11:44] Do you know your Enneagram number?  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:11:46] No, what is that?  

Sarah [01:11:48] It's a personality test of sorts. It's really about what motivates you daring stress.  

Beth [01:11:54] We're going to get so many emails from the Enneagram people who are like, it's more than a personality type.  

Sarah [01:11:59] I know it's more than a personality test, I believe you guys. I know.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:12:03] All right. Well, they can sponsor this podcast and then people can learn more about how it's more than a test.  

Sarah [01:12:09] But I'm just wondering because like a big difference between Beth and I type is like I don't-- even with my kids. Like, it's not that I don't worry about my kids. It's not that I don't think about my kids and want to do right by them. I find myself the older they get, the more I really embody this, which is I just do not hold responsibility for their feelings or their life or their voices. 

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:12:28] Wow that's amazing.  

Sarah [01:12:30]  I know that sounds crazy, but I don't hold that. I don't hold that. My mom didn't with me either, though.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:12:35] Oh, interesting. I mean, when they go away or I travel and everyone's like, "Oh, don't you miss them?" And I'm like, "No, I don't miss them. No, I don't."  

Sarah [01:12:43] Yeah, I don't like the leaving. But once I've gone, I'm like everybody live their best life. I'll see y'all in a week.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:12:47] Yeah. I'm like, wait, who are you again?  

Cara Natterson [01:12:50] That's it. That's a skill to let go of the ability-- I can't imagine not seeing their choices as a reflection of me. And it's not a grandiosity. It's just like I feel like it's a failure. I'm always looking for that. And I would love to embody a little bit of that where I just went, okay, you do you.  

Sarah [01:13:11] Well, I mean, some of this is-- I have a son who has hemiplegia and diabetes. And so with his disabilities I had to let go of so much.  

Cara Natterson [01:13:18] That's right.  

Sarah [01:13:19]  So I can't I hold that. I cannot do that. And it would break my heart and it would be bad for him. And I would be constantly trying to control and fix him, which is not something I have any desire to do. So that was a big teacher for my sort of control over my parents. You guys, we are so bad at this. We are supposed to be talking about stuff, not our work, and how we have fun and we are back to hearing [inaudible]. You guys, we're bad at this. 

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:13:46] It's my fault.  

Sarah [01:13:46] How did we get jobs being podcasters?  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:13:48] I took us off course. I apologize.  

Cara Natterson [01:13:50] Sheesh!  

Sarah [01:13:51] Back to the frivolous fun.  

Beth [01:13:53] Well, I was not going to go back to the frivolous fun. I was going to ask a question about whether you feel like-- one thing that I do that is about my kids for me with the frivolous fun is that they keep me accountable to it. So it's not that I'm doing it for them, but if I am tempted to do something for them instead of my frivolous fun, I will think, well, I want their adult selves to separate from their kids in this way. I want their adult selves to not make everything about their kids. So that kind of keeps me accountable. Maybe that's just a mind trick I'm playing on myself, though, to say that I have some of the same challenge.  

Cara Natterson [01:14:28]  I guess my life it's on the other side of that coin where I look at them and I think they're frivolous fun has nothing to do with me. I should take a page from that playbook, you know?  

Sarah [01:14:41] That's exactly right. Well, and I will say the thing that I see in my life that is the most frivolous fun where my productive self has to give myself a little pep talk, it's just when I'm with my people in my life. When I'm just hanging out with my friends or my girlfriends are going to see Barbie or whatever the case may be and I know that this is not productive, this is not self-improvement, this is just pure human connection. And that feels really, really good.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:15:09] My 13-year-old saw Barbie this summer with a group of friends, and I came home and he goes, "Oh, mommy, you're going to love it. It's like all this feminist stuff."  

Sarah [01:15:19] And he was right, wasn't he?  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:15:21] He was right. And I did love it. And he loved it, too.  

Sarah [01:15:25] I did, too.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:15:26] He loved it too. We talked to our friend Jenny Wallace, who's a great book out, and she talks about not worrying alone. And I think it's about flipping the not worrying alone and that time with friends that I think is so important us into having fun with our friends and not just spending those evenings worrying and sort of unloading, but moving past the unloading into something more joyful. So I think that's why.  

Sarah [01:15:56] Well, it's so true. It's like Laura Tremain. You got to have that yes friend. She has the 10 friends that you should have. I have a couple friends that are just like, yes, yes, let's go do this crazy thing. Let's go have fun. Let's go. You got to have those people in your lives. There are so important.  

Cara Natterson [01:16:09] Vanessa's kind of my yes friend.  

Sarah [01:16:10] There you go.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:16:11] Yeah. I'm like, Come on Cara, let's do it. And she's like, really? I'm like, yes.  

Cara Natterson [01:16:15] But it's not [inaudible]. 

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:16:16] Yeah, that's what I said.  

Beth [01:16:18] Well, speaking of, everybody stay tuned for our exciting save America with alarm clock announcement. Thank you all again so much for joining us. And thank you all for listening.  

Vanessa Kroll Bennett [01:16:29] Thank you. It was great to be with you.  

Cara Natterson [01:16:31] Thank you.  

Beth [01:16:33] Thank you to Cara and Vanessa. Thank you, Sarah, for interrupting your vacation. Thanks to all of you for your comments and emails and attention this week. It is such a gift to be in this with all of you. We'll be back with you next Wednesday, a day later than usual because of the holiday. Until then, have the best weekend available to you.  

[01:16:50] Music Interlude  

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. 

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement. 

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima. 

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers. 

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. Christina Quartararo. The Lebo Family. 

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.