Gun Violence, Racism in the Tennessee Legislature, and Corruption in the SCOTUS

TOPICS DISCUSSED

  • Kentucky Bank Shooting

  • Tennessee State Legislature

  • Mifepristone Federal Court Battle

  • Clarence Thomas Accepted Luxury Trips From GOP Donor

  • American Reporter Evan Gershkovich Detained in Russia

  • Outside of Politics: Orlando Live Show

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EPISODE RESOURCES

UPCOMING EVENTS

TENNESSEE LEGISLATURE:

OTHER HEADLINES

Transcript

Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.  

Beth [00:00:07] And this is Beth Silvers.  

Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.  

Beth [00:00:25] Thank you so much for being here with us at Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. And there is a whirlwind of news happening right now. So, today we're going to talk about the stories we think are most important, including the shooting in our home state of Kentucky, the expulsion of two Democratic representatives from the state house in Tennessee. ProPublica's reporting on Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas relationship with a real estate billionaire, and the leaked intelligence documents that have bizarrely been hanging out on the Internet for about a month. And then Outside of Politics, we will tell you about our week last week.  

Sarah [00:01:03] Yes, we were in Orlando. We had a live show. Thank you so much to everyone who came. We so enjoyed meeting you in person and introducing you to our families. One of our executive producers commented on how every single person she met at the show was so kind and fun to talk to. And we can truthfully say that that's exactly how it feels when we're out and about across the country. And we have two more live events coming up soon. We'll be in Fort Wayne, Indiana, on April 26th and Fort Worth, Texas, on May 4th. All of the details you need for those events will be in our show notes. And we're starting to book events for 2024. So, if you want to bring us to your neck of the woods, Alise would love to talk to you about making that happen. We like to schedule events early because we always want to learn as much as we can about your school, your business, your organization in advance so we can tailor whatever we're saying to the very specific needs of your community or group. It's important to us to get to the heart of what matters to you when we're with you. And we know that a lot matters during a presidential year, so don't delay. Get in touch with Alise by emailing us at Hello@pantsuitpolitics.com, and we'd love to spend some time with you.  

Beth [00:02:04] Next up, we'll talk about the fallout in Tennessee over gun violence and partisanship. Well, we thought that we would begin this episode discussing the arraignment of former and twice impeached President Donald Trump last Tuesday in the New York City courthouse. But statehouses and courthouses across the country have pulled our attention elsewhere. He'll be there. We'll get back to Donald Trump and his legal woes. But we do have more important things to talk about today, beginning in our home state of Kentucky. Just this morning, five people were killed when a shooter opened fire in a bank in Louisville. Five people were killed. The shooter is dead at the scene and six additional people, at least, were transported to the hospital. One of those six was a responding police officer who was shot in the head. And that's about all we know as we're sitting down to record early on Monday. The FBI is responding. Governor Bashir is going to the bank. But it is another heartbreaking tragedy, this time very, very close to home for us.  

Sarah [00:03:13] I was reading a piece in the Financial Times this morning about why Americans are dying so young. And the premise of the piece is that we out-earn many of our European counterparts, but we die at much higher rates and much younger. It was one out of every 25 kindergartners can expect to die before the age of 40 in America. And the article rightly cited guns, gun violence, drug overdoses as two of the main factors contributing to this statistic. And it's showing up in all these ways in the heartbreak of the families in places like Louisville. It shows up in these huge generational impacts where people in America, young people in America, are statistically likely to meet one of these violent ends. I thought the reporting in The New York Times about how this is affecting just everyday Americans lives, watching for exits, wondering when it's going to come for them, thinking about all these guns that are just everywhere in our country and showing up in all of our lives at an ever increasing rate.  

Beth [00:04:31] I read that same reporting and a couple of things stuck out at me. One, that in the past two years, gun deaths among American kids rose by 50%, that more children and teens were killed by guns in 2021 than in any year since 1999, which is when the CDC first began tracking this. And that among adults, the majority of gun deaths are suicide. But 60% of children and teen deaths by guns are homicide. If we lived into our fifties and sixties, our life expectancy is similar to our European counterparts because we do have every advantage in the world here. But the violence in our country is causing us statistically to see our age expectancy dropping. And to read all of that and then suddenly start to see in my social media feed, I'm okay posts from my friends in Louisville, and to realize that this is just right here at our doorstep. And of course, it is. Why wouldn't it be? It is a really intense feeling and it's an intensity that I know so many of you listening have experienced or will experience. And it is relevant to the first story that we intended to talk about today, which is what's happening in Nashville, Tennessee, following the shooting at the Covenant School that we talked about the week before last. There have been historic protests at the Capitol demanding that the supermajority Republican legislature enact some gun control measures. And the Republican legislature in Tennessee is not at all inclined to do that, and in fact has been advancing a very pro-gun ownership agenda. And on April 6th, the Republican controlled House of Representatives expelled two Democratic lawmakers for participating in gun control protests at the state capitol last week. And participating in those protests at the Capitol violated the House's rules. Three lawmakers participated. Representative Justin Jones of Nashville, Representative Justin Pearson of Memphis, and Representative Gloria Johnson of Knoxville. Representatives Jones and Pierson were expelled. They are both relatively young and new legislators, and they are both black men. Representative Johnson is a white woman in her sixties who has more experience in the body. She was also put up for expulsion, but remained in her seat by a one vote margin. And some of the Republicans in the legislature justified that distinction by saying things like, well, she didn't shout into a megaphone. So, her decorum was not as obstructive as Representative Pearson's and Jones's. She herself has said that it perhaps has something to do with the fact that she is a white woman and they are two black men.  

Sarah [00:07:17] Well, and this expulsion is historic on many levels. Previously, in the Tennessee state legislature, they've had expulsions for people who break the law, not the rules, and they've largely been bipartisan. But this was a party line vote to expel these two legislators. And as you watch the video, the protests start, the legislators are attempting to be recognized and speak about this gun control legislation. And they're getting shut down that you're not speaking to the bill and eventually they go to the floor of the House and disrupt the proceedings. Watching both the protest and then sort of these hearing-like procedures when they're deciding whether or not to expel these legislators, when they finally get a chance to speak, when the Republican representatives are like questioning them, I thought one of the most powerful moments was when Representative Pierson was being questioned. I'm using that word very loosely. And the representatives was like you threw a temper tantrum. This is why you're here. It's because you just acted out and [inaudible] just so belittling, so ugly. And Representative Pierson has this incredible moment where he says, "Have you ever been talked to like this? Did anybody hear this? How would you feel if somebody talked to you like this?"  

Rep. Pierson [00:08:45] You all heard that. How many of you would want to be spoken to that way? How many of you want to be spoken to that way? We're not talking about politics. We're not talking about even gun violence. How many of you would want to be spoken to that way? The reason that I believe the sponsor of this legislation and this resolution spoke that way, it's because he's comfortable doing it. Because there's a decorum that allows it. There's a decorum that allows you to belittle people. We didn't belittle nobody. What we said was that we cannot be beholden to gun lobbyists, to the NRA. We can't be beholden to organizations that don't want to see us make progress on gun violence. We can't be beholden to folks who don't want to see us help save our communities and protect them. But there's something else I think that the sponsor of this resolution has alluded to. And there were a few things here that you said that I want to address. He called a peaceful protest a temper tantrum. Is what's happening outside these doors by Tennesseans who want to see change a temper tantrum? Is Sarah, whose son Noah was at the Covenant School-- he survived, he's five years old. And she showed up here demanding that we do something about gun violence. Is that a temper tantrum? Is elevating our voices for justice or change a temper tantrum? But there's something in the decorum of this body that makes it okay to say that folks who are exercising their First Amendment rights to speak up for the hundreds of thousands of people collectively that we represent, there's something in the decorum of this body that says it's okay to call that a temper tantrum, to call people we disagree with on the issues, to say that all they want is attention. But I'll tell you what, I don't personally want attention. What I want is attention on the issue of gun violence. But instead, we're here with the resolution you put up talking about expelling me for advocating for ending gun violence in the state of Tennessee. I'd much rather be talking with you about legislation to protect Shelby County and to protect our communities, than talking about why we don't deserve to have our representation lost because we came to the well of this House saying we've got to do something. That's what I would like to be doing.  

Sarah [00:11:36] I thought that was just so powerful to have the presence of mind to say, "Yeah, I'm pleading the case. But did everybody just watch how that human being spoke to me?" I thought it was incredibly powerful, and I don't think it's an accident that both of these young men are community organizers. I think Justin Jones is in divinity school. Justin Pearson is the son of a preacher. Like, you hear the gravitas, you hear the sort of foundational values rooted in human dignity. And when they speak and when they were making their arguments, it was an incredibly impactful moment. And I don't know what they thought they were accomplishing except elevating these legislators to a national stage and giving them all kinds of attention and platform to speak about this issue that they clearly want to avoid at all costs.  

Beth [00:12:25] That's what I think is the bright spot of this story. We have been really fortunate to spend a lot of time in Tennessee and especially this spring. We have spent several days in eastern Tennessee at two different college campuses. We spent a lot of time in Nashville. Tennessee is not one thing. It is not the caricature that it is made out to be in national reporting. Tennessee virtually gets ignored in national electoral conversations because it's just written off as a red state. And I think it's horrible that this happened. But I think it's great that the entire country is getting to see that Tennessee is not one thing. Yes, 75 of 99 seats right now in the state House are held by Republicans, 27 of 33 seats in the Senate and there's a Republican governor. But it has not always been so. In 2008, Republicans redrew the district maps for both federal and state races. And so, that is why you see this enormous concentration of power that does make it look like Tennessee is just a red state without any kind of political or ideological diversity. But look at who Nashville and Memphis sent to the statehouse. Even in this redrawn climate, you have some really powerful progressive voices in the Tennessee state legislature and they now have the opportunity because of what I think is just complete political malpractice, along with very anti-democratic tendencies by the Republicans in the House, with the platform to grow that presence in Tennessee and the seeds of that are there. When you talk to people in the state, it feels a little bit like Texas to me, where you have lots of people saying, "Well, it's hard to feel the way I feel here. And I'm grateful for the opportunity to be in places where I can say what I really think." But you hear enough people saying that you know there are going to be more spaces where you can say what you really think and there's more pushback than anybody is acknowledging. And so, I am encouraged on the whole by how this is developing, even though it has taken a completely outrageous abuse of power to get here.  

Sarah [00:14:46] Well, I'm encouraged whenever people are paying attention to state legislators, because the Supreme Court definitely too is kicking everything back to the state legislators. And I've made my position clear, which a lot of times it's just a clown rodeo. There is supermajorities all over this country. It's like 20 Republican states with these supermajorities, like seven Democratic states. This is not a healthy, functioning democracy where you have gerrymandering. I mean, Gloria Johnson moved because they gerrymandered her into a district where she had to run against another Democrat. And Justin Pearson was running in a special election against a representative who was elected posthumously, like, 90 plus years old. That's not a healthy Democrat. No one's having any competition. That's how they're drawing the districts. And that is dangerous for a democracy. And this is not unique to Tennessee. It happens in our own state of Kentucky, where our duly elected Democratic governor was stripped of power because they couldn't stand the thought of a Democrat having any power. But I got news. People are moving to the south, they're moving to Nashville, they're moving to Houston, they're moving to Dallas. This stuff is going to change. And you want to see the strategy, watch North Carolina. They just had a representative change parties to further restore their supermajority because the population of that state has been changing. They can't stand it. You would think in states like Tennessee you have about 7 million people, about 1.5 live in Democratic cities, and still their powers show and they overreach and they overstep and they abuse it like they did with this expulsion. You would really think in states where you have such a wide margin on your majority, you would not feel so inclined to silence the minority. But they're so threatened by any change in demographics, by any growing urban area, that this is how they behave. And it's, again, not unique to Tennessee. This is an old playbook now. They pushed it so far that it got national attention. But I hope these strategies and political high jinks of supermajorities continue to get national attention because they're bad for the states, they're bad for our democracy, they're bad for the citizens in those states.  

Beth [00:17:04] It is incomprehensible to me that these legislators would decide to engage in this kind of power competition when their constituents are grieving. And however you want to think about the political makeup here, the fact that this is where their focus went instead of contending with the real issue, I just can't understand it. I can understand that there are people who genuinely believe that greater gun restrictions will not save any lives. I don't agree with that, but I understand that there are people who will make that case. But deciding that democracy should no longer be about persuasion and should just be a contest of numbers, that is giving up in a way that I think is unacceptable. If you believe it, then make your case and hear the other side and debate it and vote. That's what they're there to do. Even if they do it in ways that I think are wrong and reprehensible, that's what they're there to do. But to move to the numbers and to try to distract because you don't like protesters techniques instead of engaging in the persuasion, I just think it's foolish. And I feel myself shutting down a little bit because of how hardened these legislators and others seem to be in the face of more and more deaths. I can't believe that we're having serious conversations about arming teachers. I've gotten a lot of pushback for supporting school resource officers. And let me just say clearly with my voice, I don't like that solution. I'm very unhappy with it. I am just trying to say, where can we get somewhere together on this? Because continuing to tear each other apart over it-- like we see in the numbers we just talked about this-- we're dying more while we hash it out. And I don't know what happens if we all say, okay, sure, arm the teachers. And when the first teacher opens fire on a classroom because of a mental health emergency or because the teacher is a bad person (if that's how you sort the world into good people and bad people) whatever it is, when that happens, is our next conversation going to be like, "Well, my eight year old is a pretty good shot. Maybe the kids should have guns in school." Like, I don't know where we think this is going. Like, what is the end state here? But the idea that we're just going to keep doing this same thing with no change. I just feel really overwhelmed by it right now. And I hope that the foolishness and the grossness of this action will shake something loose.  

Sarah [00:19:53] Well, I thought one of the most important points was made by Gloria Johnson when she said, we have got to allow a new generation. Because both of the Justin's are very young and most of the people at the protests were very young. And it is infuriating, I think, to a younger generation to see, well, you violated the rules so you lose your seat. Like, they just seemed-- a phrase we use in my house a lot-- butt hurt. That's how they seemed, so foolish. Like, their egos had been bruised. One of the best pieces of analysis I heard was from Jason Kander on Majority 54, who spent a lot of time in the Missouri state legislator, and he was just talking about there's all these unspoken rules, and when you break them everybody's ego gets in a tizzy because basically all they do is stand around and gossip most of the time. State legislators are such a scene. And it is extreme because the state legislators who are there doing their job are working enormously hard, but the ones who aren't, you can see it. You saw it. This was a full manifestation of the extremes present and a lot of state legislators all over the country, just people who it's all about their ego and the rules and the status quo and using their power to protect that status quo. And people sincerely working their asses off trying to do the right thing. And those extremes are just-- again, when you have supermajorities in gerrymandered districts where very few people are competitive while together, this is a powder keg. And it's not a powder keg that leads to greater democracy, I can tell you that much, until people start paying attention and say we want these to be more functional. If the Supreme Court's going to kick everything down to state legislators then they're going to have to work a little bit better.  

Beth [00:21:40] State houses are not the only place where we are seeing those extremes in play. We're going to take a quick break and come back and discuss what has happened in the court system over the past week. In addition to a real divide on how to manage the overwhelming wave of gun deaths in this country, we also saw abortion come into focus once again. It's never really left our focus since the Supreme Court overruled Roe versus Wade and probably won't for the foreseeable future. But we got two conflicting federal court opinions on mifepristone, the drug that is used in over half of abortions nationwide. The FDA approved mifepristone for use along with another drug. So, it's a two-step process over 20 years ago. And a judge in Texas has said that that initial approval was done in violation of the Administrative Procedures Act and subsequent actions loosening the restrictions on the use of mifepristone including allowing it to be mailed, also violated that act. At the same time, a judge in Washington, in response to requests from a number of states to preserve the status quo, to allow this to continue to be administered by mail, said that the FDA was correct to approve this and cannot change anything. The status quo must be preserved as it exists today. And so, it is likely that those cases will work their way up to the Supreme Court since we do have this split. I can easily imagine the circuit courts affirming both of these opinions. And so, we'll have that circuit split that the Supreme Court will need to rule on.  

Sarah [00:23:30] See, I wonder if even a conservative circuit would have confirmed the case in Texas because it's just so out there, in my opinion. I remember the good old days when conservatives were very, very worried about activist judges, judges who just shredded precedent and did what they want because they thought it was the right thing to do. I don't hear too much about that anymore. I can't imagine why. This case is so ridiculous. The idea that you have concerns about the safety of a drug that's been in circulation for two decades, and even if you do, this is not the process. The process is not to instruct the FDA as a district court judge to pull the drug. It's just absurd. It's absurd on so many levels. And I wouldn't put it past this court to twist itself in knots to affirm this ruling. But, Lord, it's going to be interesting to watch them try to do it, because I think this ruling is ludicrous.  

Beth [00:24:37] These are hard cases to get through because there are so many places that a court could take an exit ramp without reaching the substance. They could say, well, maybe these parties don't actually have standing. Maybe they're not the right people to bring these claims. They could say maybe this isn't reviewable agency action. There's a huge body of administrative law that is enormously complex. And it's complex enough that courts can find a lot of ways to get away from the substance of the question. And then I think once you get to the actual substance of the question, a side issue that the current Supreme Court has been dancing around in increasingly intense ways, they seem eager to disrupt another body of precedent is just how much deference do courts owe to executive branch agencies? And that's at issue in both the Washington and the Texas opinions. How much deference is the FDA owed here, especially because both judges do seem to think that the FDA hasn't totally done its homework on the use of this drug and what is needed to make its dispensation safe and effective? These are interesting cases. They're hard cases. As you said, it's impossible, I think for anyone-- no matter how you feel about these issues-- to read the Texas opinion without thinking this is just a pro-life judge. And this judge was going to get to this conclusion no matter what.  

Sarah [00:26:08] Unborn humans, chemical, abortion.  

Beth [00:26:12] The abortionists referring to health care providers who provide abortion care and citations to theories about eugenics, it is a very extreme document and it is a document that has a lot in it that a court could work with, even if the court doesn't like the way this judge went about it. I don't know exactly what happens here, but this isn't going away any time soon. And what I hope will happen is that it accelerates a conversation about the Comstock Act, which is this act that's been on the books forever, saying you can't mail anything that could be used in an abortion procedure. This law has put Walgreens and CVS and other pharmacies in an impossible position where the FDA has given them the green light to mail these drugs. But state attorneys general in states where that office is held by Republicans are saying, you absolutely cannot do that here. And then the public gets mad, depending on their perspective about what these businesses are trying to do to manage their own risk. So, I hope that this accelerates some congressional clarity on these matters. We imagine that these cases will work their way up to the Supreme Court, which continues to be in tumult. We're back to Justice Thomas. I feel like it's just becoming a practice every few months or so we got to talk about ethics and Justice Thomas. And here we are with reporting from ProPublica, which just swung for the fences and hit. There is an amazing report worth reading every word of it and taking in every picture that accompanies this report.  

Sarah [00:27:51] It's a great accompaniment to Succession, for what it's worth.  

Beth [00:27:54] It is. Because it does look like Justice Thomas and his wife Jenny have been for years now hanging out with the Roys, private jets, super yachts, amazing vacations, private chefs, paintings of them.  

Sarah [00:28:10] Male only resorts.  

Beth [00:28:12] I particularly enjoyed the painting of Justice Thomas sitting with this Republican billionaire real estate magnate Harlan Crow and a couple of other Republican operatives, all smoking cigars in front of a statue of an indigenous American. You can't even make up the details that are in this story.  

Sarah [00:28:33] And the most important detail, he didn't disclose a single one on any of his financial reporting. Now, he did disclose some initial gifts from Harlan Crow like two decades plus ago, but then he got some negative reporting. So he stopped doing that, too.  

Beth [00:28:51] Yeah, I liked the detail that he disclosed the $19,000 Bible that had belonged to Frederick Douglass that Crow gave him. Again, you just have to read this because every single word matters here.  

Sarah [00:29:07] And the fun follow up reporting is that Crow has a quite an impressive collection of dictator and Nazi memorabilia, including a signed copy of Mein Kampf. I mean, who is writing this plot line? And, of course, Justice Thomas has come out and said, listen, they told me I didn't have to. They told me that I didn't need to disclose it if it was travel paid for by a friend. And we're just good friends. Now, they became friends after he was already a Supreme Court justice, was sure that had nothing to do with it. But now he's got he just promises that moving forward he will make all these financial disclosures of these like 500,000 plus vacations he's being taken on.  

Beth [00:29:48] I think it is amazing that a Supreme Court justices defense is I didn't understand the state of the law. I think that's incredible that a first year law student could tell you from one professional responsibility semester that this is not okay, but the Supreme Court justice is deferring to others on an interpretation of this requirement. It's really something. And the other thing that bugs me in this we're just BFFs defense, that would be one thing if this was a pretty apolitical person. But Harlan Crowe's fingerprints are all over almost everything having to do with Republican politics. My jaw dropped when I'm reading the dispatches coverage of this. And they're like, full disclosure, Harlan Crow has a minority stake in the Dispatch and his friends with the founders. And this is Succession. He is Logan Roy. And it's everything, everywhere, all the time.  

Sarah [00:30:43] It's just disgusting. And every time I think my opinion of Justice Thomas can't get any lower, it does. I find his presence on the court so offensive and this confirms all of my very worst opinions about him.  

Beth [00:31:02] Well, I just go back to our last conversation about him. The one thing that almost everyone who studies the Supreme Court agrees on is the need for greater ethical oversight of this body. The Supreme Court cannot be supreme in all things, including being a watchdog of their own behavior. And I don't know how we get there, especially with a divided Congress. But this is not a good look for anybody. I can't imagine that anyone in the Republican Party feels good about this story being out there and feels ready to defend this behavior. How many times is Justice Thomas going to be at the center of a complete storm and people just keep showing up for him? They have the numbers right now. Do something. You could you could lose Justice Thomas and still have the majority of this court. Fix this.  

Sarah [00:31:55] I don't know how Republican Party leadership or anyone who honestly votes Republican on a regular occasion could look back on the last week between the arraignment of Donald Trump, the expulsion of these legislators by a supermajority in Tennessee, the behavior of this judge in this case, the continued ethical violations of Justice Clarence Thomas, and say, "Man, we are on the right track for 2024 and beyond." It is almost laughable.  

Beth [00:32:28] And it's almost but not laughable because it is such a disservice to the country. We so desperately need two healthy parties in a system where we only just have the two parties that are viable. I wish someone would seize the moment here.  

Sarah [00:32:44] I'm very comfortable saying this is not a healthy party. I feel very comfortable in that conclusion.  

Beth [00:32:49] One more thing that we want to talk about before we go, and this is a developing story that I hope we will know more about the next time we talk with you. We have had one of the most serious security breaches at the Pentagon since Edward Snowden. Documents were leaked on discord and fortune and in gaming discussions. It is a very weird story.  

Sarah [00:33:11] I don't even feel like leaked is the right verb. It was like placed for someone to discover in a Minecraft discord page. It's very weird.  

Beth [00:33:21] These documents detail everything from intelligence that we have about Ukraine and Russia, China, Israel, South Korea. It's all over the place. It is not comprehensive. I really appreciated David Sanger's phrase on this, that this is less comprehensive than previous leaks, but it's fresher. These documents are a little over a month old, and that is very unusual. And some of them seem to have been altered. We don't know by whom or why that would have happened. They were like folded up and taken out of a room and then photographed on top of some hunting magazines. It is as bizarre as it gets.  

Sarah [00:34:01] I have a theory. There's so much on far right wing Internet spaces about the war in Ukraine, about how Ukraine is the corrupt place and Russia is the hero. We all know it's sort of this alternate reality that lives out there. And my theory is that someone who already worked in these spaces, maybe not high up, but in these surrounding classification areas, like a help staff, got a little bit radicalized in some of those spaces and thought, here's my chance. This does not look Russian to me. It doesn't look like this is a spy. It's definitely coming from the military. But to me, it feels like somebody who kind of thought maybe this was the right thing to do, and thought this was the best way to do it. I mean, it's very amateur hour. I could be wrong, but that's just my working theory.  

Beth [00:35:00] I have no idea. It is confusing to me that the scope of the leak goes beyond one incident. Like, it's very strange to me that we have alongside information about trying to persuade South Korea to assist in Ukraine, this information about the Israeli spy services encouraging protests against Netanyahu's actions to erode the power of the Supreme Court. It's just a weird mix of things. It's like spy salad. And I don't know who would have done this or under what circumstances or why somebody who would leak this in such an amateur way would have access to this level of information.  

Sarah [00:35:43] It was an accident. Maybe they just stumbled into it.  

Beth [00:35:46] But then why photograph it on the magazine? I don't know. I'm just going to keep watching this space. David Sanger is the person whose writing I want to read always on national security matters like this, especially anything having to do with intelligence. And I appreciated the perspective that his article that will link here provided that it always seems like this kind of thing is going to be more damaging than it is. It always feels like it is going to be the end of the world when we have document leaks. and it does hurt. It is not good. But our relationships throughout the world are bigger and big enough that they can survive hits like this. It's not good. And we will have to do some cleanup. But everybody's an adult on the international stage and we'll weather it.  

Sarah [00:36:33] We're about to record a piece on the anniversary of the Snowden link and what these leaks have meant. And there does seem to be some sort of major phases of intelligence leaks and what they meant about not only our international relationships, but our domestic perception of national security. And so, this is just another phase in that long timeline.  

Beth [00:36:58] One thread that we don't want to lose as we consider the implications of a leak like this is that we have an American reporter who is being detained and charged with espionage by Russia right now. And this is a huge deal. It's the first journalist that Russia has arrested for espionage since the Cold War. Speaking of new phases, this feels like such a dramatic escalation to me. Wall Street Journal reporter Evan Gershkovich who has been described by everyone who's worked with him as just this incredibly funny and tenacious reporter who very much loves Russia despite it breaking his heart in a number of ways, and who really wanted to be on the ground there telling the story of what's happened. His most recent published story is headlined Russia's Economy is Starting to Come Undone. A court ordered him to be held in custody until May 29th, saying that he collected information that constitutes a state secret. The White House says that is ridiculous. The Wall Street Journal says that is ridiculous. His lawyers say, fortunately, that his health is good and he is grateful for the outpouring of support he's received. He has another hearing coming up on April 18th. And I just wish for him to come home soon.  

Sarah [00:38:12] One of the thoughts on the intelligence leaks is that Russia's military is a disaster, adds a lot more details to the overall narrative that we understood. I think as that narrative becomes more widely known and perceived, then Putin continues to escalate his crackdown and his approaches to trying to keep Russia under his control. And he's arrested lots of journalists, Russian journalists, over the last several months. But this was such an escalation by arresting an international journalist. I don't know if this is because he released Brittney Griner and he likes to have somebody in detention and as a bargaining chip, but it just reeks of desperation, which is his desperation is well placed. But I am so sad that Evan Gershkovich got wrapped up in this, especially since he clearly loves Russia. I think his parents are Russian and all the reporting and storytelling about him is that he does have a devotion to the country and making sure these other parts of the country, not just Moscow, are understood and that the stories are reported. And I just hate that he's gotten soaked up in all of this. And I hope that he is released very, very soon.  

Beth [00:39:30] Senators Schumer and McConnell have put out a joint statement calling for him to be immediately released, along with Paul Whalen, the Marine who is still being held on espionage charges in Russia. Currently, the White House says that we are not expelling diplomats or taking some of the steps that we might take in response to this. I hope that indicates a confidence that the communications that are happening are productive. And we hope for him that he is released in a healthy and well state very, very soon. Up next, we'll talk about what's on our minds outside of politics. Sarah, our children were on spring break the same week this year, which is unusual, as you like to say. My school district has a very stingy calendar. It's usually really different from yours.  

Sarah [00:40:22] It's so stingy. You don't get a fall break. It's the worst.  

Beth [00:40:24] No, it's not a great calendar here in Boone County. We have a lot going for us in the school system, but our calendar, I would not put on that list. Anyway, we have the same break. So, we decided let's do a live show in Orlando. Let's take our families to the parks. Let's combine our business and our personal lives in the most happy way that we could. And I think it worked out really well.  

Sarah [00:40:46] Yes, we featured our families during the live show. We did a short round of Family Feud where the Holland family reigned supreme. It was the weirdest question, though, you guys. The survey was like, was it the most common items in a house? And it was like beds weren't on the list. It was the weirdest survey.  

Beth [00:41:06] I don't even feel upset about it. I don't even feel like we lost. I just feel like we participated in this thing that was strange. 

Sarah [00:41:10] It was weird. It was a very weird survey result. And we had a practice round where it was, like, what do cats carry in a backpack? And one of the answers was kittens. It's a very weird version of Family Feud on the Nintendo Switch, but the audience enjoyed it. And we talked about, of course, Ron DeSantis. We talked about the arraignment of Donald Trump. We talked about the politics of the happiest/most magical places on Earth, Disney World and the Disney Corporation, and got to hang out with so many of our listeners, which is always the best part. You guys, a listener showed up and she had painted us on her nails. When I tell you I screamed so loud, I feel like I have unlocked a new level of life seeing my face on someone's manicure.  

Beth [00:41:58] Yes. Her name was Meghan, and what impressed me most beyond the artistry of her being able to fit each of our faces on a nail is that she had painted them so that they were facing the right way for others to see us. I marveled at her talent. I really did.  

Sarah [00:42:17] We had a great time at the live event. Maggie and Alise were amazing. Dante came and played live for the audience. It was just a delight all the way around. And then, of course, there's been the rest of the weeks at the park. Your family just like psych extreme parks. You went to literally twice as many days as me and my family. Because I'm a park moderate. I want a park day-break day, a park day-break day. But Silver's family went for it.  

Beth [00:42:43] Yeah, our philosophy is if we're here, we're doing it. And our kids do love all the rides and we do, too. And so, we walked a lot. Nicholas at one point said, "My blisters have blisters," and that was the true state of things for me by the end of the week. But we did all the Disney parks. We did both Islands of Adventure and Universal Studios at the end of the week. And it was tremendous fun. It was kind of weird that all of this news developed while we were gone this time. We planned our live show to be much lighter than what we often do when we're out speaking in person. I think we both have a sense that that's a need in our audience, to find some lightness in a world where things feel awfully heavy. And so, there was this kind of strange tension of big, difficult things happening in the world. And we planned Family Feud and Dole Whip and a little lightning round about Ron DeSantis. But I still feel pretty good about that, especially because so much of what I heard from people who came out to the show, is that it is that willingness to be in the hard stuff, while also saying there has always been hard stuff. There will always be hard stuff, but there is goodness and fun and beauty and connection still available that keeps them listening. I guess I just want to say to everybody who attended, your generosity, much like the generosity of this audience, has bewilder us from the beginning. Your generosity really bewiled me this week. And we love hearing from you whether it is live and in person or through email.  

[00:44:24] Thank you so much for listening. If you would like to see us live in person, we would love to come to your campus or your organization or your business or your church. So, please send Alise an email at Hello@pantsuitoliticsshow.com if you would like to discuss making that happen with her. We'll be back in your ears on Friday. Until then, have the best week available to you.  

[00:45:01] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.  

Sarah [00:45:07] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.  

Beth [00:45:13] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.  

Executive Producers Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh.   

Beth Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller. 

Maggie PentonComment