The Aftermath of the Instagram Allies with Monique Melton
TOPICS DISCUSSED
The Debt Ceiling Negotiations
The Aftermath of Instagram Allies with Monique Melton
Outside of Politics: School’s Out!
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EPISODE RESOURCES
The 1619 Project (The New York Times)
TRANSCRIPT
Sarah [00:00:07] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.
Beth [00:00:08] And this is Beth Silvers.
Sarah [00:00:10] Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics. Hello, and welcome to another episode of Pantsuit Politics, where we take a different approach to the news. Today, we're going to check in on the debt ceiling negotiations between the Biden administration and the Republican majority in the House of Representatives, as the June 1st deadline for default creeps closer and closer. Also, as we mark three years since the murder of George Floyd, we are going to share a powerful conversation we had with Monique Melton about that particular moment and how it felt to be a black influencer that went viral on Instagram during that time. And Outside of Politics, we're going to talk about the end of the school year and the start of summer.
Beth [00:00:57] Before we get started, we want to thank all of you who have joined our premium community and hope that you will still do that if you haven't yet. We especially want to welcome two new executive producers to our team, Jen Ross and Sabrina Drago [sp]. Executive producers are people who support our podcast at the $100 a month level. So it's a real investment in our community and what we do. And we just wanted to share a little bit from Jen about why she did that. She said, "I'm so excited to be able to help support the amazing work you all do. I started listening to the podcast at the beginning of the pandemic as a means to stay connected to the news and as low of an anxiety producing situation as possible. I avoided the news as much as possible for most of my life because it affected me so deeply as an anxiety prone person. I knew I wanted and needed to stay more in the know but didn't know how I could do so without spiking my cortisol levels until I found Pantsuit Politics." And she says that she's been a devoted listener ever since. Really enjoys our premium content and wanted to be supportive as she can because she thinks that what we're doing is so important. And that just means the world to us, Sen. Jen, Sabrina, all of our executive producers, thank you all so much for your support and everyone who has become part of our premium community. As always, you can learn more about that by going to the links in our show notes.
Sarah [00:02:11] Next up, we're going to talk about the debt ceiling negotiations. Beth, this episode will come out on Friday. We're recording on Thursday and we are still in the throes of debt ceiling negotiation. I don't know about you, but I basically just follow Jake Sherman and Punchbowl News. Those are the two Twitter accounts that I check when I see if there's been any major breakthroughs with the debt ceiling negotiations. And they did tweet earlier today that House Republicans in particular feel very positive that they're closing in on a deal with the White House. They're going to lift the debt ceiling through 2024 while incentivizing Congress to pass all 12 annual appropriations bills, which I think I like the sound of that. And we know that that came up a bunch during the negotiations to make Kevin McCarthy speaker of the House. So it's still got several more specifics to work out. We've got some pretty angry House Democrats. I don't think we're going to make June 1st-- maybe June 3rd or 4th. But it seems like the momentum is momentum-ing. Yeah, that's what Imma go with.
Beth [00:03:34] It needs to be. They couldn't get any closer to the wire if they tried. When I read this morning that McCarthy said things are better than they were yesterday, I felt encouraged. And when I read that there's still no text at all on paper. I thought, "Guys, this is not okay." It is not okay that we're this close. I'm thrilled that they think they're going to get a deal. But that's a terrible thing to be thrilled about. This is the most fundamental basic thing. The idea that the same folks who are bringing us this crisis are going to get all the 12 spending bills passed seems very unrealistic to me.
Sarah [00:04:13] Well, and they haven't come to any agreement on some of the major sources of conflict. The spending levels themselves, the COVID relief clawbacks, work requirements for some of the entitlement programs, even the permitting reform that is Joe Manchin's special darling baby. The response of the markets has been really interesting to me. The sort of shrug of I guess we're not going to freak out about this, that people are saying they'll run to Treasury bills if there's a problem with the Treasury is fascinating to me. And in some ways it makes sense if you've lived through several of these "debt ceiling crisis" over the last several years. Well, then, yeah, the stakes are going to seem lower because you've been here before. The newness has worn off. The threat has worn off. Of course, we've never actually defaulted. And I don't think we're going to default this time. And that seems to be what everybody thinks. We're not going to default. Now, I did hear some far right republicans believe that both the date, the default date is not accurate, that it's not actually June 1st, which I guess they've all decided is true since they're aiming for a June 3rd, June 4th, and that the repercussions will not be what the Treasury claims it is. And, look, that could be true. I'm not going to say that.
Beth [00:05:33] That's right.
Sarah [00:05:33] That could be true. We don't know. I don't want to risk it. But I also want to own the fact that it could happen and the fallout could not be what we expect it to be. It feels like I'm not the only one thinking that way. I feel like they've worn us down through exposure therapy. And so this one feels different than previous negotiations.
Beth [00:05:55] Well, I think the pandemic is the biggest reason that I have a sense of maybe this won't be as terrible as it seems, because I thought the economy was going to absolutely free fall in it. It was bad, but it wasn't Armageddon. And I think that's what would happen here. I think it would be really bad and we would survive it and we would figure it out. What I think is even worse in the really bad category is the way that people are talking about what this means legally. This 14th Amendment discussion really concerns me. The discussions about whether Congress could have or should have eliminated the debt ceiling. I just think that this whole episode highlights the real lack of an identity that Congress has about itself and has had about itself for a long time, that the only way Congress acts is when they are on the precipice of real disaster, and that even in those moments, the political calculations override the fundamentals of what Congress is there to do.
Sarah [00:07:05] Well, I want to push back because I definitely just don't want to forget the time in history mere months ago when Congress passed several pieces of bipartisan historical legislation. It's just so easy to forget the good times. And when they're actually functioning now, going to have to point out those Congresses both had Democratic majorities. Here's what I'm done with. What's frustrating to me about the way this is all shaking out is that it's going to build the narrative and contribute to the narrative that there's such a thing inside the Republican Party as being fiscally conservative. I still hear this shit all the time. The next person who says to me, "Well, I'm socially liberal and fiscally conservative," I'm going to say, "Okay, do you want to, one, raise taxes. Two, cut the defense spending. Or three, do major cuts to Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid.?" If you do not answer yes to those three questions, then you are not fiscally conservative because that's what that means when we talk about spending at the federal level. Otherwise, you are making teeny tiny little changes on the outskirts to make yourself feel better, but not actually addressing the deficit. Now, what the debt ceiling has become what it means to be fiscally conservative. What the hell? Like, that's the part that just frustrates me and it just feels like just this completely and totally false narrative about being "fiscally conservative" is changing in reality, but not changing in the way we talk about it.
Beth [00:08:41] Yeah, I would describe myself as fiscally conservative and I would answer all three of those questions. Yes, I think we need more revenue. I think we need less defense spending, and I think we need less entitlement spending in general.
Sarah [00:08:52] You feel that way about defense spending even with Ukraine?
Beth [00:08:54] I do. And, listen, I feel justified in that as I look at the numbers, because the war in Ukraine, what we've contributed to it is less than 5% of this year's projected deficit. The most controversial things are the tiniest things. It is Social Security and Medicare and Medicaid. That is where the money is. And we have got to figure that stuff out. I don't want to eliminate those programs. I don't even want to drastically change those programs. But we are going to have to figure out a way to sustainably and responsibly provide that safety net for people. And nobody's talking about it. What Republicans are really focused on right now is the non-defense discretionary budget, which is less than 15% of the whole budget. This is like going to war over a speck of dust in the corner of the room. It's bananas.
Sarah [00:09:47] Well, and it just drives me crazy. This is such an easy message. Countrymen, fellow citizens, when we set up Social Security, the tax rate was truly bananas. That's it, guys. That's the reality. We were taxing upper income brackets like 60, 70%. I don't want to go back there. Actually, that's not true. I would go back there for the people like Jeff Bezos. I wouldn't be sad about tax on Jeff Bezos at 60, 70% at all. But something's got to give. We set up these entitlement programs when we tax people at a much higher rate. So unless we are going to start taxing people at a much higher rate, then of course they're going to have funding issues. And it's not because Democrats are spending too much.
Beth [00:10:31] Well, if you just look at recent history, we have not balance the federal budget since the Clinton administration. We have since then had two unfunded wars, three recessions, a pandemic, three rounds of tax cuts. So all in all, the leaders of both parties have contributed to the amount of money that we have to borrow every single cycle. And, to me, the legal side of this is so much scarier than the economic side, because if you get down to a court trying to weigh in on what bills get paid and what order, we are in no man's land on what the balance of power looks like here. A federal employees union has filed a lawsuit seeking an injunction, a preliminary injunction, that would tell the federal government it has to keep paying its bills whether or not Congress increases the debt ceiling. And that lawsuit is set to be heard on May 31st in its first hearing. And the judge has said, I am not going to decide this before June 1st people. It's just not going to happen. The court system is not designed to function at this speed on an issue of this consequence. But the truth is, I think there isn't a court who should be willing to weigh in on this because this is a matter of what Congress and the executive branch exists to do. When Congress has already passed laws saying we have to spend this money, Congress cannot just say like, never mind, we're going to de facto retract our own legislation by not increasing the debt ceiling. But, again, a court can't solve that for us. Congress has got to deal with that on its own terms.
Sarah [00:12:13] It does feel like that strategy is losing steam. I still think we're going to have a lot of angry Democrats to get on board, much less far right House Republicans. I do ultimately think the debt ceiling will get raised. I think that they will do what they always do, which is set up all this stuff. And if we don't do this, then it's going to be a trigger. It's going to be so painful. The automatic trigger is so painful. They find a way out of that too. They've done that before as well. And so that's what I anticipate happening this time, but we'll see. Tick tock, tick tock.
Beth [00:12:47] Well, it's been really obnoxious listening to people talk about how these negotiations are going, because everyone acts like we're setting precedent for the future. And there is no precedent for the future with Congress because they have so much power, they can always change it up. And so, whether the White House decided to engage on this or not to me was irrelevant. And I hate that they waited till the last minute. The way that Republicans are conducting themselves in these negotiations, I don't respect either. I get why Democrats are mad that they feel like they're going to have to swallow some things that they do not believe in, in order to get the debt ceiling raised. But at the same time, that's the reality of a divided Congress. What I wish would come out of this is a codification of what was known as the Gephardt Rule, where for about 10 years Congress said necessary borrowing for things that we have already authorized is automatically approved. Like the debt ceiling increases automatically for things that we have already committed to. There's still a check on the executive branch. If the executive wanted to enter some kind of war and needed to borrow to do that and Congress hadn't authorized it, then the debt ceiling could be a check on that. But we don't get in this situation where we say, I don't know if the Social Security checks are going to go out because Congress hasn't acted.
Sarah [00:14:07] Or we just get rid of the debt ceiling. I think that's probably fine with me. We need to stop this. It's such a silly fiction. It doesn't make any sense. I don't think it's any reasonable check on the executive branch. There are many, many other ways to do that. So we could just, I don't know, stop this silly dance we do every year, every year and a half or, when there's a Democratic president and a Republican majority.
Beth [00:14:34] Yeah, I would not eliminate the debt ceiling altogether, but I would be very much in favor of that Gephardt practice being the rule. That when we sign a piece of legislation, we know that we are going to be able to borrow the money necessary to effectuate that piece of legislation.
Sarah [00:14:51] We will continue to follow these negotiations. And up next, we're going to share our conversation with Monique Melton. Monique is an educator, published author, content creator, international speaker and host of The Shine Brighter Together Podcast. And we are so thrilled to share our conversation with her.
Beth [00:15:18] Monique, we're so happy to have you here at Pantsuit Politics. When your team reached out, we were really interested in learning about your work. We are not Instagram influencers, so you are in a space that we do not understand well. And you had this intense experience of going viral in a very intense time. So would you just tell us about how you got started and what that experience has been like for you?
Monique Melton [00:15:43] Yeah, do we have 30 hours?
Sarah [00:15:47] It is a podcast. This is not cable television.
Monique Melton [00:15:51] I need at least 30 hours. I started out on Instagram just like everyone else with zero followers and just really wanting to get your message out there and what you're doing and building community with people who want to know what you're up to and you want to support each other and growing and connecting in community. And in 2020, when the-- what I like to call the pseudo wide awakening happened in the summer where you had a lot of white people who previously probably didn't even know what the word anti-racism was or maybe even heard of it, where all of a sudden very interested in anti-racism work. And because I was already teaching anti-racism classes and talking about anti-racism on my platform, I and a bunch of other incredible educators, authors, wonderful human beings were put on list upon list. And before you know it, we were going viral. And I'll never forget I remember looking at my phone and I was like, "What is going on?" And my friends were texting me like they would send me screenshots of just a thousand new followers and it was going up by the minute. And I went from 17,000 Instagram followers to 225,000 Instagram followers in one week.
Beth [00:17:20] That sounds awful to me, honestly.
Monique Melton [00:17:22] And you know what, it was like. A lot of times people say, "Oh, I want to go viral. I want to go viral." And maybe if it was something that was like really exciting and lovely and just joyful, it may have felt, yes, overwhelming, but also just maybe really exciting. Instead, it felt really devastating because who wants to go viral because of black death and a black person being murdered and people looking for you to have answers when the work that I am doing-- and another author said something along the lines of Ijeoma Oluo, "My work is prevention. We're trying to actually prevent what actually happened." And that's how I feel. And I'm, like, if y'all were actually listening to me a long time ago, and the rest of us, and just even generations ago, we wouldn't even be here. So it wasn't celebratory for me as I was really struggling with the amount of demand and the pressure and the sense of entitlement that people felt to me, people calling me a resource and just really tokenizing and dehumanizing me. I had to set swift boundaries. That black game was on 10. It was intense. My request box, my inbox, my emails. It was an explosion and I just really wish that it was for the right reasons. Like people were really motivated to commit to change instead of actually just alleviating their white guilt. Because now what we see what I like to call the great white apathy, people are just completely disengaged. And so, you go from over 1000 people signed up for a class within a week to maybe 100 after talking about it for a month. So it's just where did everyone go? It's like a it's like a ghost town with the little tumbleweeds and all that.
Sarah [00:19:29] Well, even if it is a joyful reason, we had a friend who went viral because Miley Cyrus shared something he posted and the account blew up and he was like, "My comments are trash now. There's no engagement." There's two things to unpack here. I think the virality and what that does in the best case scenario. In the best case scenario, what that means for engagement, what that means for exactly what you articulated at the beginning, wanting to build community. So there was that initial shock of the virality. And how did you see that play out over the next year or two? Did it change your life? What did it mean beyond Instagram?
Monique Melton [00:20:12] Beyond Instagram, my business transformed tremendously. I was able to earn enough in terms of with the work that I'm doing because I already had a school. We already had classes that we were teaching. We didn't have it formalized the way that we have now. So people were going to my Instagram, but they were also investing in some of my classes. And so that revenue that we were building allowed me to be able to hire a team to support the business, to continue to grow. And we definitely made it to where we could also be able to move abroad and leave America. Because one of the things that's also really challenging for me as a black woman who's married to a black man and two black children, is the constant assault on blackness in the United States. Anti-Blackness is everywhere, but the constant assault, the constant violence that black people endure is so incredibly depressing and devastating. And so, to have a little bit of physical distance and space from that feels affirming to my soul. But it also is really sad. It's devastating to also just know that's not something available to everyone and that the pain and the struggle and the oppression continues and that anti-blackness is everywhere. I still have that spiritual and communal and collective ties and connections with my community. I mean, I'm black, but it allowed me to be able to leave the United States, which feels like a very toxic place for raising a black family. This is a very, very toxic place for us.
Beth [00:21:54] I was really struck by what I think I heard in your voice when you used the word list and resources, talking about that experience of virality. I would love to hear you reflect on that a little bit more, if you would.
Monique Melton [00:22:09] Yeah. I can't tell you how many times people would call me a resource and I started correcting them, and then I just made a post about it and was hoping that it would reach more people. But the problem with doing this work as a black person is that a lot of times people intellectualize it and refuse to acknowledge that I'm actually a whole human being and I create resources. I am human. I create resources; I create books; I create podcasts; I create classes, courses and all these things that you can buy, the whole experience. I am whole human. And one of the things that is really challenging, I believe, for white folks, especially because the way that white culture teaches you to consider yourselves as a superior race, it's hard to even conceptualize that. Well, you've been taught and believe and reinforced in so many different societies of black people who you believe that are actually not whole humans. It's hard to really actually grasp that. And I know that might sound like really shocking for folks like, "Oh, I know you're human." But do you? Do you see me as a human? Do you acknowledge my humanity? Do you even understand what that means? Do you actually care about me? Or is this just another trend to jump on and jump right off? Because if people really did care about black folks and our full humanity, it wouldn't take a black person being murdered to notice what's happening. Why only think of me and my death?
[00:23:56] So the list and the resources, I don't mind people creating a list, for example, and say, here are 10 anti-racism educators to learn from and the resources that they've created and then list those off and share that. And that's fine. But what one thing was also happening is people were taking images and not even asking like, hey, is it okay if I share this? We were just news. We were news. We were a story. And it's like, no, I'm a person. I'm a whole person. I remember there was this radio station that reached out and they wanted me to be on air and they were like, oh, yeah, we'll send you the recording. We'll do all this. Never heard a word from them. I was interviewed for a very popular newspaper and I don't know if it intentional or not, but they misquoted me multiple times. And I'm like, "I don't even know what that word means that I didn't say that. You know, even just recently I was interviewed by someone. They promised me that they would send it to me first to review it, to make sure I felt comfortable with it. And the next thing you know, I see it published with the horrendous title, this click bait. So it's like we're just news stories. We're just not human. We're not seen as human and regarded as such. And so that's why I constantly tell people all the time, I'm a whole human being from the bottom to the top, all day, every day.
Sarah [00:25:30] Yeah. I think the way you center your experience and are so honest about that because to me it's just this cross-section of so many things, so many really dangerous things, because I think virality trains us to see people as products. Social media overall trains us to be consumers in that space. Thumbs up or thumbs down about a human experience. Okay. That sounds great. That doesn't sound like that could go wrong at all. And I just think back to that time and I think, you know what it reminds me of, honestly? That combination of virality and that resource language, it's like the wise native and why we don't do that anymore because it's just a different type of dehumanizing. Or like back in suffrage, they would say like, "We can't let women vote because you're so moral, we're trying to protect you." It's just a really other jacked up way to dehumanize someone. It was a freaking trap. It's a trap. You think that sounds great to be the person everyone's looking to as a resource. Hundreds of thousands of people at once. But that's just a trap.
Monique Melton [00:26:36] It is. Because then when you start telling people pay me, and they're like, "How dare you want to be compensated for your labor?" I'm like, "Oh, okay. So you want to reinforce and perpetuate the entitlement to unpaid black labor?" All right. Because that worked out real great before. So it's like I don't think people realize how the legacy of chattel slavery legalized chattel slavery. I don't think people realize how that legacy still lives on today. And I love the 1619 project, for example, because she does a beautiful job of helping to connect the past to the present so that people can understand like the past. Like James Baldwin tells us, the past doesn't just exist in the past, it lives with us. And when I'm telling people when you're learning from a black educator, you're learning from a black person and they're teaching and they have a way for you to support them financially, a book, their podcast, maybe you pay access for that or whatever, you should be doing that. Of course, if you don't have the means, figure out another way to support because there's other ways to support beyond financial. But I imagine that most folks who are on like $600, $800 phones to access these courses and classes and Instagram and all these things have like $3. Because a lot of us have patriotic accounts and communities where you can engage in. I imagine more people than not have $3 at least.
Sarah [00:28:13] Well, I'm wondering what you learned, like coming where you already had the classes and you already had the site, because there's a part of me that's like, listen, let's let the performative aspect of Instagram stay full of tumbleweed. I do want people to get out of that space and take courses and have friends that are still-- I'm one of them still in the anti-racist book clubs, but they pulled it off Instagram. I'm not really sad about that. So I wonder how you think about that now because you do. Of course, I want you to to tell us about those and I want you to share, tell us what you've learned and how you try to shift and work your business in a way that provides a resource, of course, but more importantly, supports and sustains you as the creator.
Monique Melton [00:28:58] Yeah, well, one thing about me is I'm straight up. I tell people all the time, if you're learning from me here, you need to be compensating me. So if you accept that you are a non-black person, when I write captions on Instagram, I am often telling people, take the next step and invest in my work. And there are multiple ways to do so. You can join our community. We have a membership community or you can join have access to a full library of Shine Classes. These are like anywhere from 90 minute two hour classes on very specific topics. Anti-Racism 101, white feelings, perfectionism, unpacking friendship, break ups, all sorts of things. My black friends and relationships. We have all kinds of things and it's a monthly membership. You can invest in that or you can do our Support Black Liberation community. You can start at $5, you can enroll in a course. You can send love to the collection plate. There are ways to put cash into my pocket. And people tell me all time, I learned so much from you. Okay. Have you taken a class? Which class was it? What did you learn from? Have you invited other people to learn from this as well? So I tell people often, I remind them often that I have resources that you can invest in, and I encourage you to invest in those because you're just getting a little sample here. This is not the full situation, and not even the classes I'm giving you. That's scratching the surface too, but it's definitely beyond what's on Instagram. And I also have repurposed a lot of my content, so instead of me feeling the pressure of constantly trying to create new and new content, I re-share it. Just the other day I post probably for the third time the exact same post, and people treat it like it's brand new.
Sarah [00:30:53] I wish I had a choir behind me to just say, amen.
Monique Melton [00:30:56] I'm telling you. Give it three months. They don't know--
Sarah [00:30:59] My next question. How do you see Instagram differently? Because the wisdom you gain from going viral on Instagram, an experience like that. Just say it again, just for emphasize.
Monique Melton [00:31:11] You got also set limits. I'll delete Instagram for a month, for a week, for a weekend, because I also don't want to be governed by social media and determine how I feel about myself or my business by social media. And I also have rules. I tell people like, this is what to expect here. If you don't like it, then you don't have to be here and I will block you. I'm not arguing. I also don't argue with people. I tell people, you can argue with your mama, you can argue with yourself, but you're not about to argue with me. I'm not going to spend my time with someone that I could be using that time to take a nap. Why would I do that? It's just setting those boundaries, setting those expectations and encouraging people with words very directly. Support me off of this this platform. Get involved. And I will directly message people. For example, when someone shares, I'll get a text sometimes and sometimes I'll respond to them and say, thank you so much for sharing. They're like, oh, of course I love your work. Oh, by the way, are you investing in my classes? They come up with all kinds of... So it's like you realize when I'm writing about people doing exactly what you're doing, I'm talking to you, right? You know I'm talking to you. So it's just interesting when I share posts and I'll get thousands of likes and I'm like, "Y'all liking this, but I'm talking about you.”
Sarah [00:32:40] That's classic social media, though. That's the thumbs up and the thumbs down. It's like it's always a product out there.
Monique Melton [00:32:45] Exactly. Yeah. I've definitely learned a lot.
Beth [00:32:50] Well, what's next for you? What do you want people to know about where you are going with your work and your business.
Monique Melton [00:32:56] Yeah. Right now I am typing away, I'm just giving it all that I got.. I'm writing a book. I'm writing another book.
Beth [00:33:04] Congratulations.
Sarah [00:33:05] Congratulations.
Monique Melton [00:33:06] I'm excited about.
Sarah [00:33:07] Godspeed.
Monique Melton [00:33:08] Yes. I'm writing a book called I Am Not Taking Money Advice from White Women.
Sarah [00:33:17] Do not take money advice from me, please.
Monique Melton [00:33:19] Let me tell you something, this book is about to make people so mad. I'm typing it and I'm like, "They're not going to like that." But it's necessary. It's going to set us free. It's going to set us all free, hopefully out of that. So that's coming up. I'm really excited about that. We have a new season of the podcast coming out, so we just re-branded the Shine Bright Schools and now it's a membership community, we've done my website. And then we're also working with corporate brands who want to commit to anti-racism, offering them self-paced education as well. So we're doing some things.
Sarah [00:33:55] Love it. Well, we are so grateful that one of those things was sharing your time with us here at Pantsuit Politics. Thank you so much for coming on the show.
Monique Melton [00:34:03] Thank you so much for having me.
Sarah [00:34:14] I want to say thank you again to Monique for coming and talking with us, this is a really important conversation to start unpacking and processing what happened during that period of time. And we were so excited to share her very unique perspective on that with all of you. Beth, I feel like I should sing, "Schools out for summer." I saw a funny tweet the other day that was like, how many Alexis have been asked to play School's Out for Summer in the last week. Although, we have so many listeners who school goes all the way through like mid-June.
Beth [00:34:47] I have that mix of emotions that I have at the end of school every year. Part Joy because our mornings are going to get a little bit lighter around here. You know, we're not going to be doing the grind of the school calendar. And part utter desperation at like, what are we going to do with some of this time and how are we going to manage this and still love each other? No, not love each other. We will love each other. How are we going to like each other in our households by the time August 17th rolls around and we're back in school?
Sarah [00:35:18] I had a really emotional day yesterday, which is our first official day of summer. I've highly scheduled my children and our family for summer, so we don't have a ton of days that are fully empty. I like it that way. I like to parent outside of my house when my kids aren't in school and I like to parent inside my house. My kids are supposed [inaudible] for my personality, but I was like so cranky and sad yesterday. It felt like grief and I couldn't quite figure out what was going on. And this morning I sat down, I did some journaling and thinking and I thought, "Oh, I think I carry so much anxiety at the end of school, about school violence, about all the programs we go to where there's a big gathering of people." And I think I carry this fear of like there does seem to be an uptick when there's a change in the school schedule. My own school shooting happened on December 1st, which was our first day back after Thanksgiving break. And so that sort of transition time, Uvalde happened a year ago yesterday. They were at an end of school program and some kids went home and they stayed. And just all that emotion, I thought, what a weird paradox that I'm dealing with this sense of relief and grief I think that I carry that so much during the school year, that I carry this sense of something could happen to them at any moment, which is always true. And also the sense of frustration that now they're in my workspace, they're in my face, I'm living with them in my day to day in a way that I don't. And it's just such a weird, messy mix of things all at once that the end of school and the start of summer brings up for me.
Beth [00:36:59] Yeah, I think a lot about how there will be books written someday about our cohort and the effect that school shootings had on just our psyches in the way that we parented. Because of that constant awareness, I think the frustration about them being here all the time for me comes up partially because I struggle to know what my responsibility is in the summer. There are all these messages about how we don't want them to lose any of the learning that they just had, and that feels like a weird thing to be my responsibility. And I don't know how much to push that because I also sense that they're tired and they do need a break and they need some rest. And I struggle with what rest looks like for them. And I know that it looks different for Ellen at seven than it does for Jane at 12, but it's really hard for me to fully articulate what that means, how much supervision to give them, how much independence to give them. I mean, it's a really complicated dance if you try to be intentional about it. And if you are unintentional about it, then it really just results in everybody being mad all the time, at least around here. And I think that anger is the frustration coming out. I don't know what to do. I don't know how to be a good parent in the summer.
Sarah [00:38:16] And for me in particular, it's the sibling squabbles. That's why I schedule because the free time, particularly with Amos and Felix, just leads to so much fighting. And I'm an only child and I don't understand it. So that part is just really frustrating for me.
Beth [00:38:31] I have that same conundrum because my sister is 12 years younger than I am. So it was just like we just didn't fight. We weren't in the same house for most of our childhoods. My two can be the best of friends and in a second be at each other's throats. But I don't want to program so much that I miss opportunities for them to cultivate that sort of independent play and curiosity. And I don't even know what play looks like for my 12 year old. She's such a different 12 year old than I was at 12. It's hard. It's just really difficult. And I think that all of that advice out there intended to make it easier for me ends up making it even harder because now I've got like everybody's perspective to sort through in terms of what's important. And I feel like I need to be making a plan every day that gives them a little bit of learning, but a little bit of free time, but a little bit of socialization, but a little bit... And it's too much.
Sarah [00:39:27] Yeah, that's why I've got to get the hell out of Dodge. I got to get them out of Dodge. I really wish I'd had more time and childhood to go to a camp, to stay at that camp, to rise up through the ranks of that camp. I think it's such a positive independence building thing. And I used to do a lot of cobbled together local summer camps and I loved them. But with Felix's diabetes, that is not a camp. That is not good, that does not work. So he's going to diabetes camp for 18 days at Camp Sweeney. I cannot wait for him. I think he is going to have the most amazing time. He is a fiercely independent child anyway, and Griffin and Amos are going to camps. First of all, they are fully and completely unplugged from technology and their phones and I don't have to do it. I could weep. I could weep with the idea that they're like outside all day doing things with no phones, no video games. And I don't have to organize any of it. It's like I have a contact tie right now just saying that sentence.
Beth [00:40:28] Jane is going to do one week of summer camp, and Ellen has a mini summer camp that's a sleep-away camp. They both very much disliked going to camp last summer, and I told them in so many words, I don't care. And I said, "You don't have to do the same camp, but you must do a sleep-away camp every summer. And I'm sorry if you don't like it, but you must do it." Jane's school counselors had a book club about anxiety, and I feel like the TL;DR of that book was send your kids to summer camp.
Sarah [00:40:57] Word.
Beth [00:40:58] A better summary of it is that anxiety is an experience, not an identity. And that we really have to give kids opportunities to experience it when they are young so that they build the skills they need to cope with it. And that summer camp is a beautiful way to give kids an intentional experience of some manageable anxiety in an environment where there are lots of tools to cope with it. And I just told them that I said straight up, "You may never enjoy going to summer camp, but life is going to be filled with experiences that you don't enjoy, and I am not doing my job if I don't ensure that you are able to spend five nights away from us. You must be able to do that at these ages." So they are begrudgingly doing church camps this summer and I hope that they have a really good time. I want it to be that idyllic, lovely, wonderful experience for them. But even if it's not, I told them don't call me and expect me to come get you. I will not do it.
Sarah [00:41:58] No, I totally agree. Because to me it's the discomfort. I need you to have discomfort, and I need you to be able to address that discomfort without me there to help guide you. I guide you all school year long. I need you to start applying these skills outside of my realm of control. For me too. For me too. I have to feel like they're out there tackling things. I have to have a little bit exposure therapy for them being out there, dealing with stuff when I'm not around. And so, yeah, I totally agree. That's part of the travel thing to me. It's exposure therapy. Let's have some discomfort. You're not going to like who you're sleeping with. Your brother might kick you all night and you have to get up and do something the next day even though you're tired. You might not like the food, you might not like what we're doing that day, but then you see overall you have a great time and we have fun together. And I don't really know. I can't explain why I do so much better outside of the house under any rubric-- even just around town. But there is just something about when we are out as a family, out of the house, it's like my parenting capabilities grow by a factor of 10. I don't know what it is. I really, really don't. It's just there is something about once we cross out of the threshold into the world as a family or even when it's just the three boys and me, I just don't know. I just have infinitely more patience. I have more fun. I don't feel the pressure. I think just because there's like adjusted expectations-- I don't know what it is, but I just do so much better. That's why the summer is so fraught for me, because I do feel like even when we're not traveling, I have to like go somewhere and do something with them so I'm not screaming at people the whole time. I need some probably like parenting, coaching, therapy. I don't know.
Beth [00:43:43] Well, I think it's two things for me. And I don't want to travel as much as you do in the summer. But I do like to be out and I like to have plans very, very much. I love to have plans. I think for me it's, number one, the multitasking factor that I've talked about before. I'm not a good parent when I am trying to also work or also make dinner or also clean up the house or also do laundry. I really struggle when my attention is split and I have the kind of attention that focuses in on one thing. I cannot scroll my phone and watch a TV show. I'm going to watch the TV show or I'm going to be on my phone. But my brain cannot do both things at once. So I really, really struggle with that shifting that kind of network shifting that you have to do when you have your kids at home for long periods of time. The other thing for me is that when we are out in the world, whether it's at the park or on a trip, I get to teach the kinds of things that I'm interested in to my kids. We get to talk about the world at large and they ask me such interesting questions about like prices and sales and what does this word mean and where is this place that we're at and why are we here? And I'm not a homemaker. I don't enjoy those kinds of questions at home the way that I enjoy them out in the world. I have no interest in teaching anybody to clean. I just don't. I wish that I loved home decor and a lot of the pieces of homemaking more than I do. But other than cooking, man, I don't enjoy any of it. And I really only want to cook for special occasions, not like the nightly dinner. So it's just a deficiency that I have. I don't enjoy that time at home with them because I don't enjoy the home stuff.
Sarah [00:45:29] Well, I love homemaking and they're always messing up my clean house and decorated sofa with my pillows that I want in a certain way, and they keep moving them. Maybe that's why I get frustrated. They have a zone upstairs and I'm like, you just go up there. And I just don't like that. I don't like it when we all go to our corners. I just feel I should all over myself. We should be together. We should be playing a game. We should be cooking a meal together. Like, should, should, should when I'm at home in a way that I don't when we're out of the house. And luckily the weather is nice in the summer so we can go out of the house a lot and we made our little list of things we want to do and play and enjoy the summer. And I do love that time. I really I'm so grateful that we have flexible work so that I don't feel like I'm just working the whole time that they're home because I do want to enjoy them. I just enjoy them more when we're not home together.
Beth [00:46:19] Well, the pool has helped us a lot because we love being out of the pool all together. The hardest part of the pool is just making sure that you're tuned in enough to feel that the pool is safe, especially when friends are over. And so, I told them this summer that the pool is going to open for other people outside our family at noon. But don't ask me before noon if friends can come over because I get stranded out there all day when when everybody starts coming. And listen, I love it. I love a pool full of kids. I love summer days where they're all here and I'm feeding everybody lunch and whatever. I dig it. But I also do want to have some time that's just for me. And I'm not going to get that if I am constantly on life guard duty. So the pool opens at noon this summer. I'm going to experiment with that and see how it works.
Sarah [00:47:10] Well, we look forward to hearing all of your thoughts on the end of the school year and how you think about this summer. Some of you out there I'm sure have hacked or perfected the situation where you're parenting for the summer at home. We want to hear from you geniuses and superheroes. We'll post some stuff on social media. We love hearing from all of you. We will be beginning our summer schedule now where Beth is going to take off June? I'm going to take off July. It's a little different than years previous. We talked about that in detail on our premium channels. If you're interested in hearing more about that, we will be back in your ears on Wednesday. Monday is Memorial Day. It's a federal holiday, so we won't be recording until Tuesday. We're going to be sharing a conversation we had with Elizabeth Hodges from the Allen County Public Library's Genealogy Center. We can't wait to share that with all of you. Until then, keep it nuanced y'all.
Beth [00:48:16] Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production. Alise Napp is our managing director.
Sarah [00:48:21] Maggie Penton is our community engagement manager. Dante Lima is the composer and performer of our theme music.
Beth [00:48:27] Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.
Executive Producers Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Helen Handley. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. Tawni Peterson. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Danny Ozment. Jen Ross.
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