Hollywood on Strike with Chelsea Devantez

TOPICS DISCUSSED

Not a Normal Election
Hollywood Strikes Update with Chelsea Devantez
Outside of Politics: TradWives

Thank you for being a part of our community! We couldn't do it without you. To support the show, please subscribe to our Premium content on our Patreon page or Apple Podcasts Subscriptions, or share the word about our work in your circles. Sign up for our newsletter or follow us on Instagram to keep up with everything happening in the Pantsuit Politics world. You can find information and links for all our sponsors on our website.

EPISODE RESOURCES

Get your ticket to the Pantsuit Politics Live show in Paducah, Kentucky, on October 21! Get information about our weekend in Paducah here.

The Overlooked Reason Our Health Care System Crushes Patients (The New York Times)

HOLLYWOOD STRIKES

WGA Strike Hub
Emergency Financial Assistance & Disaster Relief Fund | SAG-AFTRA Foundation

TRADWIVES

TRANSCRIPT

Sarah [00:00:09] This is Sarah Stewart Holland.

Beth [00:00:10] And this is Beth Silvers. Thank you for joining us for Pantsuit Politics.

[00:00:14] Music Interlude.

[00:00:34] We're so glad you're here with us for a new episode of Pantsuit Politics, as we take a different approach to the news. It's a holiday week, and so we are going to try to give you an episode that we hope is both delightful and thought provoking today. We're going to chat a little about how this upcoming election is not a typical presidential election. And that is a bit of an adjustment for everybody. Then our dear friend and TV writer Chelsea Devantez is here to tell us about her experience of the writer's strike. And then we're going to go Outside of Politics to discuss something extremely political as we do sometimes. And today that is trad wives. If you don't know what that expression means, hang in for a real ride as we discuss women who have turned a submissive vision of femininity into a powerful vehicle for influence.

Sarah [00:01:19] Before we jump into that conversation, we wanted to invite you to snag the last few remaining tickets to our Paducah live show. We'd love to see you in my hometown for the weekend of October 21st. We're going to have the best time. We know you're going to love meeting other listeners. And Beth, guess what I discovered this week?

Beth [00:01:36] Tell me.

Sarah [00:01:37] Our local independent art house cinema in downtown Paducah is showing Taylor Swift's The Era's tour that weekend.

Beth [00:01:47] And it's like all of Paducah is saying, "What specifically would Pantsuit Politics listeners enjoy doing here?

Sarah [00:01:53] Yeah. And they're midday ones too. So it's not like you would have to miss the live show, there's several showing. So get excited, everybody. It's going to be chock-full of goodness. It's going to be the best. We also want to say that this week in our premium channel, we shared a conversation with listener Becca about her company go into a four day workweek. And the comments are interesting and thoughtful. We are so lucky that all of you listen and offer your insights and connect with each other in so many different formats. And if you haven't jumped into this community in a way that works for you, we hope you'll consider coming to a live show, joining the premium community, or just leaving a comment on Instagram or Facebook.

Beth [00:02:28] Next up, we're going to talk a little bit about the presidential election cycle that feels, in Sarah's words, like a deflated balloon.

[00:02:36] Music Interlude.

[00:02:52] Sarah I have noticed this week especially that all of media wants to cover this upcoming election like it's a real election-- and it is a real election in that people will go and cast votes. But it just does not have the energy that we typically see at this point in the calendar. And I'm personally kind of struggling with how much should I be paying attention to this, how much should I be talking about it? Should I profile other Republican candidates for president? I don't even know when the next debate is. I do know that it happens to be on Fox Business, so I'm guessing that it's not going to be like a ratings juggernaut. It's just sort of an adjustment when you are a person who loves politics and covers it for a living to say, "Womp, womp. This looks like it's pretty set right now."

Sarah [00:03:47] It's hard to overestimate how much energy comes during a presidential election from that outsider, young person, new vision candidacies. And we have a couple of those, but it does feel like everybody's decided it's going to be Biden or Trump. I mean, when was the last time we had two elections in a row with the same candidates in America? And even though they are not normal candidates-- I mean, I would say Joe Biden is except for his age and Trump is not normal for lots of reasons, which we have examined thoroughly here at Pantsuit Politics. And so, it both feels weird but not exciting. Could something be weird and boring at the same time? I guess so. I guess that's what we're examining here and discovering. And there is a lot that's different in this election because our media environment continues to change. The parties themselves are going under dramatic shifts demographically, organizationally. But that's not the stuff people want to hear about. That's not the stuff the media wants to examine. Even Matt Iglesias had this great article. He called it bored journalists syndrome or something. Really even if you looked back at 2016, it was going to be Trump. We acted like he was not leading in the polls and that he was some sort of underdog, but he was leading in a pretty formidable way from the beginning with Joe Biden. A lot of other candidates gained a lot of traction, but he was still-- my husband said from the beginning it's going to be Joe Biden. I was like, no, it's not.Then it was Joe Biden. But that's not fun to report. What we expected to happen happened. It's not an exciting election angle. And so we had to talk about a million poles and we had to get people riled up. And we can't move forward and accept the things that have changed. One, because they're weird. Two, because they're not exciting.

Beth [00:05:54] I feel two tensions around this. The first is I hate doing the 'what we expect to happen will happen' because that's so disempowering. I hate telling people, "Here's what the polls say. So now let's all behave in a way that reflects the polls and act like we have no agency here in a democracy where we have yet to vote and still get to do that." And so there's that rub for me. The other thing and it's gets to your point about the tedium accompanying the weirdness is that anybody I talk to who doesn't enjoy politics is so distraught about this Biden-Trump rematch. They do not want this at all. And when I think about how we came to this point, where it looks to be so set that it's Biden and Trump, it feels like that is a result of people who love politics calling all the shots. The people who really still love Donald Trump are very into politics. They can go deep on theories about minor players in our bureaucracies and the things that they do. They are very, very invested in politics. And on the Democratic side, the party elite has basically decided it's going to be Biden and it's going to be Biden so much that we're going to change our calendar because Biden thinks that that's the right thing to do. And so it's all these insiders, I think, who have kind of brought us to this place, even the outsider insiders who who form this sort of MAGA coalition. But then that very group is also like, ugh, this is boring. I don't feel any energy around it. It's such a strange confluence of events and preferences that have gotten us to this point.

Sarah [00:07:38] Yeah, I am the most discouraged and concerned that people who already hate politics, who already think the game is set and feel dis-empowered by our processes, are going to be pushed even further away through this election. And still a lot could change, still so much could change with Donald Trump and his calendar with the other candidates and the Republican primary with Joe Biden. Joe Biden is old. Just going to put that out there. There was a listener who emailed us and said, have you heard that his family met in Utah to reconsider his candidacy? And I was like, no, is that an Internet rumor? But it just it goes to show you that people just want something to change, anything to change. And I think we'll see a proliferation of conspiracy theories because there's that sense of, like, I cannot explain why we are back here in a democracy when nobody wants to be here. And so, when people can't understand how we're all in this place where we like, we don't want this to happen, but yet we can't make something else happen, that's going to lead to a lot of people making up reasons to help them understand this.

Beth [00:08:49] I 100 percent agree with that, especially because the money keeps coursing through this process as though it were a normal process. I really liked this piece that Tim Miller at the Bulwark wrote about how super PACs are totally unnecessary in the presidential cycle. These candidates, especially this time, have total name ID, like 100 percent name I.D. People know what they need to know about these candidates. Even the minor candidates get outsized media attention because, again, you got to have something to write about. So he has said, you might as well just light your money on fire as put $30 million in TV ads for Tim Scott. It doesn't make any sense at all to do this. And I think that if you are already inclined to believe that all of this is a setup, nothing really matters, someone's pulling the strings. And then you look at all this money flowing through a process that does seem to be pretty predetermined. That also feels wrong.

Sarah [00:09:51] Well, and it's really interesting because I think there are so many dated ideas about campaigns in general. And I think it's easy for the consultants and the super PACs and the donors to tell themselves, well, 2020 was different because of COVID, and 2016 was different because of Trump. And it's like they're not learning the lessons about what has really changed as far as our social media and earned media and the way people engage with pollsters. It's like we're in a time of transition. If we haven't already fully transitioned to a totally different approach, but we haven't quite caught up. And that's probably because this is an industry, this is a well established industry, that money is paying a lot of salaries of people who don't want to say, "Hey, I don't think my expertise is applicable or works or gets in the outcome anymore." Nobody's going to say that to a candidate. They're going to say, "No, give me the money and I can make it happen." And that's a perpetual problem in American politics and campaign consultants. And don't know the complete and total takeaway from 2016 and 2020. It is hard to make any assessment of American politics as long as Trump is still on the scene because he is such a unique animal. It is really hard to say, well, this is the new way to do things or this is what works, or this is the kind of candidate that can succeed because he is just so different, so all encompassing. I don't think we've seen that type of effect on American politics for a long time. I think we've seen it in the past, maybe like Andrew Jackson or a Teddy Roosevelt, somebody who just came on the scene and upended the game. And as long as he's still here upending the game, I think it really is hard to learn lessons or find the new normal or find some real stability in the process.

Beth [00:11:48] And on the other side of the aisle, there is not a simplistic message for Joe Biden that works because Joe Biden is not governing under a typical set of circumstances. Not that any president really does. I get that there's always something unique happening in the world. But I think about this Bidenomics pitch that they're doing. I think it is-- and I've said this many times, I think it is remarkable that we have not gone into a deep recession in the past four years. And I think there has been real skill by the Federal Reserve and to an extent by the administration in managing our way out of the COVID crisis. At the same time, when you say Bidenomics, people think about the fact that their groceries are still really expensive and it is hard to say, "Well, your eggs were expensive for a while because of avian flu, and your bread is expensive because there's a war happening in one of the biggest wheat producing countries in the world. And your corn and other veggies are expensive because fertilizer has gone through the roof in terms of commodity prices." And there are different reasons for all of this. So there's just not a slogan that he can roll out to say, I get that some things are still really hard and also we've made the best of the circumstances. It's like the lemonade campaign, and that is a tough sell.

Sarah [00:13:08] Well, that's always the tough sell of a second term president. An incumbent president always has that sell because then you don't have that newness, you don't have the fresh vision, you don't have the outsider status, and you certainly don't have youth. So I think that is always a tough sell. But incumbency is powerful. And we'll see if people look back and say, I'm better off than I was in 2020, I sure as hell am. I feel very confident in that answer. But I don't know where the rest of the American public is. And I think it'll be interesting to see, but I do feel like it's going to feel like that deflated balloon. There's just going to be a lot of [sighs] let's just get to 2028.

Beth [00:13:49] Well, we will move on for this conversation for now. And we would love your input and advice on how we can most effectively cover this election in ways that speak to you because we want to provide value as you think about this election. We don't want to just talk about it because we would typically be talking about it. So let us know your thoughts. Next up, as we continue to think about Labor Day and the state of work in the United States, we wanted to check in with our beloved friend Chelsea Devantez. Chelsea is a comedian, filmmaker, host of the fabulous podcast Glamorous Trash, which we happen to be on today as this episode comes out talking with her about Melissa Etheridge's memoir. And importantly to today's conversation, Chelsea is a TV writer. We adore her. And every time we talk about the writers strike, we have her in our minds. So we invited her to chat with us about her personal experiences and perspective. And she was, as always, funny and warm and incisive and delightful. This conversation includes adult language, so please take care as you need to as you listen.

[00:14:49] Music Interlude.

[00:15:08] Chelsea Devantez, we are always so thrilled to have you here at Pantsuit Politics.

Chelsea Devantez [00:15:12] I'm thrilled to be here. I love talking to you guys any moment I can. So thank you for having me back.

Sarah [00:15:17] Yeah, we love.

Beth [00:15:18] Well, I'm sorry that we called you here to talk about something so crappy, but again, you are our favorite person to talk to, and so we want to touch base with you to just get an inside perspective. We have talked about the strike at a distance, but at a distance is usually not the best vantage point. So tell us how you are here at the beginning of September.

Sarah [00:15:38] Let me just tell you something that wasn't that much of a distance the last time I talked about it. I read that quote where they were like, we'll just let them starve till December. And I about started crying. So you're talking about my friend Chelsea. How dare you? you pieces of shit.

Chelsea Devantez [00:15:49] Thank you. Yeah, they really have been-- well, first let me say this because I'm so happy to talk about my experience, but I'm going to lean more on just my personal experience because if you really, really want to learn about the writers strike and everything that's happening, there are like union resources and union deputies out there taking you through the data points. Like Adam Conover is a great source. Kay Cannon, Justine Bateman on the SAG side has been so vocal about AI. If you go to her Instagram you'll learn so much about AI and acting. But on on a personal note, I've almost lost track of the days. That's how many days it's been. And to give you some context, in 2007, the last time there was a strike, it was 100 days. I was not a professional TV writer then, so I've just heard about it from the people who were there, and they say it was brutal. So tough, but necessary. And that's where they get some minor streaming residuals and things like that, that we would not have jobs anymore if they had not won that. And now we are on like day 120. We don't have an end point in sight. And the longest strike in history was in 1986, and that was five months. And I worry we're going to eclipse that. And if you are in L.A., if you were in L.A. this summer, this has been a brutal summer. Vibe wise, bad, bad, bad, bad.

Sarah [00:17:23] And it's a vibe town. It's a town built on vibes.

Chelsea Devantez [00:17:26] It's only vibes. There's not much here, but vibes and clouts and juice. A lot of juice is here. A lot of wellness juice. And so, yeah, it's not good. And I would actually compare it to the pandemic in many ways which everyone can relate to. Or just your whole life gets shuttered, you got to stay inside. Economically there's like collapse. There's a lot of fear. All of that is here. And I think I'll speak for myself, but also many other artists like our way through our mental health problems is making art. And you can't do it anymore. Yes, it's like you can't make money, but it's also hard to help your brain. You can make art for yourself. So I'm just over here writing myself little script. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah, it's been a really, really tough summer. And I think what's really sad is that we all thought we would be seeing the horizon. And, they met again to renegotiate and they had a press release ready and they dropped it right after they walked out of the meeting because their strategy was to sort of put this press release out into the world.

Sarah [00:18:37] Circumvent the union.

Chelsea Devantez [00:18:39] Yeah, that would make people be like, "Well, this is great. Why won't the union accept this?" And they used so much weird, weird, weird language in their press release, including they just kept talking about "We said generative AI would be regulated." And you're like, well, stop saying generative. Say AI. And they literally wrote like, listen, we're not going to force you to use AI. We'll do it. And then we'll legally let you know that you're rewriting an AI script, okay? And we're like, wait, that is not what we're asking for.

[00:19:16] I kind of wish that they would just call for like a consumer boycott because I just want to do more as a person who loves culture. I just feel so powerless to say like, well, just they're going to starve them out and let's see what happens. And what I really wish people would understand is that it's difficult when you're watching a lot of what you see is like famous actors and actresses, people who make millions of dollars a script out on the picket line. I'm glad they're on the picket line. Good for them. Especially for the writers, I just want to say these characters that speak to your heart, just pretend they're on strike. Pretend they can't pay their bills. These characters who you love, who feel like family, those are the writers, body and soul poured into those characters. So just pretend they're on the picket line. Pretend Tim Riggins is on the picket line or The Bear. That's what's happening and feel some sympathy. And I don't think people are unsympathetic. I just think that connection to how important that is, is hard. Yeah. And I think also Hollywood is an extremely, extremely privileged industry. We are the people who throw award shows for ourselves dozens of times a year. There's not one, there's not two, there's not three. There's more than a dozen where we're like, "We are the best. We're wearing gowns." So I totally get it.

Sarah [00:20:29] Look how pretty we are.

Chelsea Devantez [00:20:30] Yeah. But I think the money stuff gets weird too, because you have to factor in like how much it costs to even live here at all next to these giant salary numbers. That being said, you have to know that the people getting the salaries are 0.01 percent. There's this whole other industry of workers who are not making those numbers but still live here and survive here. Here's the thing that I think is getting lost in the strike talk, which is that if these strike points are not met, Hollywood is going to become even less diverse than it is now. And I am not seeing diversity likely in the way you're thinking of it. I'm saying, do you want Gwyneth Paltrow's children to write all of your television shows forever, or do you want one person who is not an apple baby to write some jokes. And if you want one person who is not an apple baby to make some art that maybe speaks to your life in any way, this has to happen. If you want one person who was not raised-- and now apple babies are out of it. To get here and survive here and make a break here when you don't come from money, when you come from a working class background as I did, it's impossible. And they're going to make it even harder. Like I'm in writers rooms where the income I grew up with is many, many digits from the next person's lowest level income. Like we just came from different lives. And they're the person writing things into shows where you're, like, they could never live in an apartment that big. Or this is ludicrous. Or why are they being so privileged? Don't you want people making art for you that speaks to you? And then let's talk about real diversity and not all white people. And it's going to get worse, which means our art is going to get worse, which means our shows are going to get worse because we already struggle. And those are the people that are going to be hurt by this, not the rich people. It's going to be no one new can come in.

Sarah [00:21:57] And our politics is going to get worse. We already have a lot of tension and conflict between this idea of the elites don't understand us. And some of that is true because of what you just talked about. So if it's only going to get worse.

Chelsea Devantez [00:22:36] So much of it is true. If you only have one person in a writer's room being like, actually, that's not what it's like. I've really been thinking about this a lot lately because my book is coming out and they're like, wow, really talking about like the childhood you had and they all want to be like the poverty. And what I want to say is, like, I actually lived most people's lives. And I'm not talking about the book people. I'm talking about TV people mostly. But it's like I understand that these stories are wild to you, but it statistically I'm everyone. You're the weirdo. And I think art affects culture. Hollywood affects politics. It'll be even more disastrous.

Beth [00:23:20] Well, and statistically on the viewer side, I worry about our politics because the people who watch a lot of TV are going to struggle this fall. I think this summer is different because the summer's always different.

Chelsea Devantez [00:23:35] Always been off, yeah.

Beth [00:23:36] But this fall, the people who watch a lot of TV do not need to watch a lot more cable news. And I worry that that's what's going to happen.

Sarah [00:23:44] They don't even need to watch a lot more reality television.

Chelsea Devantez [00:23:47] Yeah. And, listen, I love reality TV. I love it. It's supposedly what takes my professional away? No, it doesn't. It's actually what teaches my profession that we can have multiple shows with four female ensembles and they're all nuanced and different. But I need some shows. I need some narrative shows. And I don't know why they haven't called a consumer boycott, but it has been distinct that they have it. And a part of me wonders is it a good thing to show them how much people want good television? The people are watching Suits right now. It's the number one show on Netflix. Suites is having like a massive revival.

Beth [00:24:21] My parents are all about Suits right now.

Chelsea Devantez [00:24:24] Yes. Maybe sure some of the Meghan Markle of it all. But I think people just want television that reminds them of television. You know what I mean? Like good television shows. And I think it's kind of nice that all this data is happening where people are saying, yes, we want good TV. Maybe you should let the people who create it have some money to live.

Sarah [00:24:46] And good movies. I'm sad Barbenheimer's going to lose that momentum. I love that moment for all of us.

Chelsea Devantez [00:24:52] Oh, I know. Barbie, I will say that's the thing, though. It's like Barbie has gone into the billions. And it is female-led art made for a female demographic, and it broke through in a world where they didn't think in-person theater experiences would come back. It's back. And I think that should show them how much were needed. And I hope it is, but it's probably not. I don't know what their press plan is, but those people will give quotes like, "We hope they starve out and lose their homes."

Sarah [00:25:22] Yes. It made me so mad.

Chelsea Devantez [00:25:24] They'll say crazy things. This article came out where all the television studios, their sites have blocked AI from being able to scrape their sites for information. So it's like so you guys know. And I think the statistic no one pays attention to is it would take point 01 percent-- don't quote me on that check a meme. But it would take like point 01 percent of each studio's earnings to meet the strike demands. It's very small.

Beth [00:25:54] On that point, I have a question for you. Because when I read about all of this, it feels to me that there are like five guys who could resolve this. Is that how it feels to you? Is that accurate?

Chelsea Devantez [00:26:08] That is extremely accurate. It's five studio heads. Carol Lombardini, who actually runs the AMPTP and does the negotiating, she's in there too. Yes, it's true. And I think when I have my dark, scary thought at night, it's because we're actually having a much larger conversation about this business. Like what happens here today is really going to affect the next, I think, 20 years if not more, of art. It's not just, oh, in three more years. Like, the moment is now. It got pushed. It has to happen. I think these studio heads know that these certain conversations are happening will shape everything. Like even down to this thing called minimum room requirement, which is they're asking for a minimum amount of writers to be required for a room. And they're trying to say, no, just so many things can happen from that. It's like, okay, so it's one writer and AI making the television show. Another thing is like, like I said, the person who needs a chance who's going to make the greatest art you've ever fucking seen will never get a chance. There's only two spots in the room.

Sarah [00:27:12] Well, and what makes me so mad, the way they talk about this, I understand that the industry has changed. I'm not dumb. I understand that some of these streaming services have not turned profits, are not profitable on a large scale. But it's not because of the writer pay you jackasses.

Chelsea Devantez [00:27:29] Also, they are profitable. These companies are not bankrupt. They're still companies. They are still making money in this moment. They are not profitable on the little graph of numbers going up the way it was in the heyday, but they still make money.

Sarah [00:27:44] Let's just give you the total benefit of the doubt and your balance sheet doesn't look like you want it to. Baby, that's why you get paid the big bucks. That's your job to figure out. It's not to put that on the writers and what can you sacrifice? First of all, I don't think those numbers are big enough to turn your balance sheet around. I'm not the CEO. I don't see the inside. They're not. But I'm guessing that health insurance for writers is not what's breaking you. What's breaking you is you think the only business model is to churn out so much crap that people are bombarded, even though if you talk to anybody ever and have a conversation in small talk, in any cocktail party across the United States, or any PTA gathering or soccer player or whatever metaphor you want to use, what does anybody say? There's too much. I can't even decide what I want to watch. Everybody says that because you want to turn out crap that looks like the other crap that was a hit because that's the only success model you have. Instead of trusting that if you pour money into the resources, the actual creative resources, it might not look like anything you've seen before, but you'll hit a Barbie. It's like they've forgotten that's how it works. I don't understand.

Chelsea Devantez [00:28:45] Oh, yeah. Also, A.I. as of this moment isn't trained to create a succession. You know what it is trying to do? Run some fucking numbers. And that's your job. You can be replaced by AI. Why don't have them run the numbers, let you know that they actually like female content. Give some jobs back. I will also say maybe don't give The Weeknd $50 million to make The Idol, let him kick off the female director and writer who shot this incredible series that we all wanted and loved and then give him $50 more million to make five episodes of television show that you canceled. Those are the decisions being made.

Sarah [00:29:25] Because there is a role for creativity, but you guys don't ever use it. You don't ever take it. There is a role to create it. Like, you aren't going to have to be creative when you shift from like VHS and DVDs and theaters to streaming. Of course, that's an upending. No one is arguing that. But there's no creativity to this approach. There was at Netflix for a little while, but they've even abandoned it. They're, like, let's create good stuff and see what sticks. And, well, we got one that works, so let's make 50 versions of that. It's like the HDTV version of everything. I don't want that.

Chelsea Devantez [00:29:58] Yeah, and for as long as I've been here, that's always been a problem of how creative decisions are made and greenlit. And it's terribly, terribly unfair. And I just think while you go through this terribly unfair, heartbreaking process of creativity, you should at least get to pay your rent. And especially, I would say, for the actors, like 90 percent-- again, check the memes-- of actors don't have health insurance. Don't make enough to have health insurance. And it's most of the people working here.

Beth [00:30:28] And we don't do this in other industries. I feel like this is unique to industries where people are the products, where people are the inputs. If it was like suddenly steel is really expensive, they would figure out how to pay for the steel as a critical input to the output, right?

Chelsea Devantez [00:30:43] Yes.

Beth [00:30:44] But when it's people, everybody's just supposed to sacrifice a little bit more or bend a little bit or act like we're all in it together.

Chelsea Devantez [00:30:52] Isn't that always how it's worked? It's like when the banks crashed, who did they bail out? The banks. They didn't bail out the people. When people said, "I've lost my homes because of this scam they have run, I am homeless." They said, "Figure it out." When the banks said, "Oh no, we might not be big bank anymore." They said, "We'll help you." And so it's exactly that. They'll never help the people, which I think also, again, it looks like a very Hollywood issue right now. And this is just my personal opinion, but I think we are on a labor movement. I think we are at the beginning of it. We're so fucking sick of billionaires going to space.

Sarah [00:31:31] No, that's appropriate. Use that word.

Chelsea Devantez [00:31:33] Thank you. And Elon, we're so sick of them. And so many workers and laborers and factories, especially union busting, like Amazon doesn't want them to have union rights because they know how powerful a union is. And it gets very politicized. But everyone should be for workers. If you work for a living, your politics should be for you. And they're not. And I will say the writers union is historically one of the strongest unions, and we are in one of the most privileged parts of the country. And if we're not doing great, it doesn't bode well. So it's like we have to win this. We have to, and I think we will.

Sarah [00:32:15] Well, and I just think too, there's an undercurrent of like, well, if UPS strikes that's really bad or the pilots strike, that's really bad. Just because it has a long tail, I think that there's a real underestimation of how bad this could be. Like, no, of course, people are still going to get their Amazon packages. And I guess that's what we all are concerned with. At the end of the day, I don't know. But I don't think we understand what a big export this is for the United States. Like, how essential it is to our economy. And I think it gets treated like a luxury, but it's not really in 2023. And the reason I wish there was a consumer boycott is because it's not fair that the creative industry is just paying the price when we are all going to feel this, unless by the time we start to feel it y'all's backs are broken and that sucks. I don't want that either. Yeah.

Chelsea Devantez [00:33:09] Thank you for saying. And it's true. I think it's kind of back to that point of what do we care about? Who do we care about? Like, well, UPS can't strike. Our packages can't strike. Well, what happens when the teachers strike? Do you care about your children? The teachers had such a hard time getting their rights. And it's not always money. With UPS drivers it was like, can we have air conditioning? So the part time workers don't die? And they were like, we'll think about it. So it's like, where do we put our value? Like, why can't our value be in humans, you're human children, your human teachers, your creativity, your shows.

Sarah [00:33:43] Well, and I think post-pandemic there's a reason we have that because people are like, I didn't survive a pandemic for nothing- to work for you till I die for nothing.

Chelsea Devantez [00:33:49] Yes.

Beth [00:33:50] Well, here's another thing we learned from the pandemic. When something stops, restarting it is not cheap or easy or quick. So you said that there's not really an end in sight for this right now.

Chelsea Devantez [00:34:02] Yeah, it's tough to know. It's a slippery slope. A lot of things happen behind closed doors so that they don't play out in the press. Our last negotiation, the way it ended, did play out in the press. And I just don't know where we are at now.

Beth [00:34:14] When it is resolved. Let's assume that is resolved on terms that are acceptable to everyone.

Sarah [00:34:19] No one's happy, but no one's mad. Just a good old fashioned everybody's like--

Chelsea Devantez [00:34:25] A good old fashioned neutral. That's right.

Beth [00:34:27] What has this done to the timetable for projects? What is the restart going to look like?

Chelsea Devantez [00:34:36] Great, great question. And this is all just going to be my estimated guesses because who's to say? So I was writing on a show called Not Dead Yet, and we got our season to pick up. Normally, we would have already produced a few episodes by now and we would have started in June. So if a show like that is set to come back, that's now not coming back for like six months to a year later than you thought it would. And then that's everywhere. So every season two, every season three, unless there was a showrunner who the scripts are already in and they walked across the lines to take it across, which happened with a few, your shows are not coming back for a lot longer than you think. Also, they've lost money in this strike. What shows will come back? How many opportunities will there be? What opportunities will be given? I sold two shows myself, but I don't know now. You know what I mean? I have no idea. Will I pick it up and keep going? Will it not be there? I don't know. Same for all movies, for everything. I mean, there's going to be a huge pause. And, listen, you can catch up. You can catch up on all of the stuff you never knew or all the stuff you're like, I really always meant to watch Suits. I will say if it ends soon, if it ends now, you're going to have great television in spring and hopefully a little bit of winter. Like, we're coming back. If they push it even farther, I don't know. But now is the time for its end for us to still have some art.

Sarah [00:36:13] Well, I wish that was a more uplifting ending. But, listen, this is the reality of strike. It's a mind game [crosstalk]. It's hard. We're with you, though, in solidarity.

Chelsea Devantez [00:36:25] Thank you. Rolling right from the pandemic into strike feels crushing sometimes. But I feel like our union is very, very strong. And I think now it's getting even harder. But I do have a lot of hope that we're not going to-- I mean, I know we're not going to cave. We just won't.

Sarah [00:36:47] I'm glad. Well, tell the people where they can enjoy your work.

Chelsea Devantez [00:36:52] Oh, yes. Come to my Instagram at Chelsea Devantez. It's a lot more active now.

Sarah [00:36:57] It's the best Instagram shh!

Chelsea Devantez [00:36:58] I have time, you guys. So there's a lot of stories going up. I recap books, I recap US Weekly once a week.

Sarah [00:37:05] There's not a pattern, guys. It's the best part of Instagram. You never know what you're going to find. Could be wedding dresses. Could be glassware. Could be celebrities.

Chelsea Devantez [00:37:12] Listen, the other day we went into Kate Gosselin's fertility nuances. You never know where you're going to go.

Sarah [00:37:18] It could be a road trip. You don't know.

Chelsea Devantez [00:37:20] Thank you. What a great trailer for that. Yeah. I'm on Instagram @chelseadevantez. And my podcast Glamorous Trash with Chelsea Devantez. It was formerly known as Celebrity Book Club. We just rebranded. We recap celebrity memoirs. The first one episode up is your episode about Melissa Etheridge. You guys, it's a wild one. I'm so excited for you to listen to it.

Sarah [00:37:40] Our audience likes homework, but we just want to say right now, you don't have to read that memoir. In fact, please don't.

Chelsea Devantez [00:37:45] I would say you shouldn't. I'd say, don't do that. Don't do that. Just listen.

Beth [00:37:48] Listen to the podcast. Don't read the book. This is how how much we care for you. We're going to be honest with you.

Sarah [00:37:53] That's right.

Chelsea Devantez [00:37:54] That's great advice. Thank you guys so much for having me on. And if you're listening and you're like, oh my God, I want to support the strike so bad. The way to do it is to donate to the funds that support the crew. The crew are not on strike, but they're out of work because we are on strike. So crew members and also assistant funds and things like that, you can find them on Instagram, you can find them on Paul Scheer's, Instagram. There's a lot of great funds you can donate to. That's where you can give money to if you want to help.

Sarah [00:38:19] We love you. Thank you for coming on our show.

Chelsea Devantez [00:38:21] I love you guys so much.

Beth [00:38:33] Thank you so much to Chelsea for joining us. Sarah, We have had trad wives on our Outside of Politics list for the last two months at least. So I assume we both have a lot stored up to say about this. But I thought we should first try to say, what do we mean by trad wives? Because people helpfully told us after we talked about Rush talk, not everyone is on top of the hashtag vocabulary. Can you help us out? And that was an excellent note that we are taking seriously. So when I say trad wives, what comes to mind for you?

Sarah [00:39:07] Well, it stands for traditional wife. There are also trad girlfriends, people who aren't even married but are living out this very stereotypically feminine version of domesticity. There is a lot of grooming themselves in their homes. There are varying levels of submissiveness to the husband or boyfriend. There is a lot of trad wives that have very, very many children, so that sweeps up lots of our ideas about mothering and parenting. It's a big net. You put out a trad wives net, you're going to get a lot back.

Beth [00:39:47] It's a big net. And it also is like dominated by white women married to men, usually Christian. There is often like a strong religious component and sometimes a strong patriotic component as well. So a very sort of stereotypical 1950s white family version of motherhood that is being-- despite all of that-- performed on Instagram and TikTok.

Sarah [00:40:18] That's what I was going to say. I think the most important piece of this is the performance angle. They are performing this for social media. Lots of women live lives like this and never post on social media. But these women have chosen performance, which brings in the power of the gaze, brings in an enormous amount of work. So the idea that these women don't work is not true. They do work. They work as social media content creators. The level of posting, the level of editing, the level of curation involved in these accounts, whether they're showing off a recipe or their children or their workout routine is enormous. It takes a lot of work to post that much and to post that sort of level of content. And some of them take paid sponsorships. So there is money changing hands, which is always sort of the rub for me when we get into traditional ideas about femininity in the way they are performed like that, because the performance of it changes the nature of the beast. This was always my beef with Phyllis Schlafly, like, to promote traditional domesticity while building a pretty impressive career for yourself as an author and speaker reeks of hypocrisy to me. Not my favorite. And I think that's what the rub the trad wives. You don't go to the gym by yourself, but you'll post yourself in your gym clothes for all of the internet to see? Huh, I'm confused. I've become confused.

Beth [00:41:49] You be submissive. While I am enormously influential to my thousands and sometimes hundreds of thousands of followers.

Sarah [00:41:56] Right. And look. I enjoy domesticity myself. I enjoy homemaking, I enjoy decorating. I don't cook, but I do bake. And there is an aspect of these accounts that is incredibly entrancing. Like they are selling a version of femininity and parenting and marriage that we are all sold in lots of places, not just through these accounts. And that I don't think is all toxic and all bad. But it's hard to argue that there aren't toxic threads of Christian nationalism and white supremacy and lots of problematic political ideologies running through these accounts. I just try to be really careful because as a feminist, I am looking for freedom for all women. And if that freedom includes staying home and living a very traditionally domestic life, then that is your version of freedom. And who am I to argue with that? But I do think it gets complicated quickly.

Beth [00:43:04] What is complicated for me about taking in this kind of content is the fact that I can find myself, for a brief moment, lost in the idea that life could be simpler. And maybe I would be happier if life were simpler. Now, I know that's not true for me. During my parental leaves, when I was at home with my babies, I was climbing the walls. I could not wait to get back to work. So I know that this is a vision of living that is not for me. But I also do feel a pull often to slow things down and take it a little easier and focus on more basic tasks. I do really enjoy cooking when I have time and space to cook slowly, and I really resent cooking when we're all going five different places in a night and I have 30 minutes to try to get something on the table that maybe someone will eat. Courtney Martin wrote in her great newsletter, The Examined Family, this week about her sabbatical this summer. And she said that one of her learnings from it is that we live at a pace that can't be metabolized. I mean, that was such a beautiful phrase and really it. That it's very hard to walk out of your nervous system when you are being in the words of like trad wives content, trying to have it all.

[00:44:29] I think that's true. And I read in Helen Peterson's piece about this in Elle, and she took a very policy oriented approach. They're telling us everything would be fine. We don't need universal childcare. We don't need a social safety net. And I thought, I mean, fine, I don't disagree. At the same time, I don't think that either the picture of if you bake bread and homeschool your children you'll be happy. Or if we did everything policy wise that would support women and families you'll be happy. I think life is going to have complexity and some of that sense that Courtney Martin was writing about in any version of society as we choose to build it. But in a 45 seconds, well-lit, beautiful, curated moment, I can find myself thinking, "Hmm, I wonder if I have leaned into my career too much." And that's the difficulty of this.

Sarah [00:45:26] I've just been in the content creation game too long. The siren song no longer affects me. The second I see a beautiful video like that I think that took so much work. I know and you know that took an enormous amount of work. Even home accounts, which I love, they're not trad wives, but they have these beautiful, amazing homes. And I think, oh, what if your house was your constant palette? Like, that's what was your entire career- was making over your own home? God, that would be exhausting. You'd have to have staff for your home. I think I've watched enough of the stuff and just been in this world long enough. I just have a well-worn neural pathway that says, "Don't forget that beautiful little 45 second video about slowing down took her all damn day. And so, the domesticity part, yeah, I want to slow down. And I try to slow down. And I love decorating my home and making sure the spaces meet my family's needs and figuring out how to use my space and my time to connect. Because I think that's what people want. It's not just the slowness. It's that you see her with her kids. You see her doing the things in your head you thought you would do when you were a mom, right? Or when you were a wife. You thought there would be date nights and family game nights and all this stuff. And then you get in the pool of life and you think, damn, we never have time for that. Or we have time for those like once a week. But that's okay.

[00:47:00] And setting the expectation that's what everyday should look like is so toxic. But they're selling a performance. They're selling a vision. They're doing it for companies that make money off that content. So, to me, I see the problematic political threads running through it, but also I don't think it's self sustaining. I think a lot of people watch this content, but I don't think a lot of people follow these women down that pathway. It just takes an enormous amount of privilege and money and a lot of other things to do those things that they do- be it either having 15 kids or living on a homestead or whatever. But I got to say this, I don't think a lot of these people are oriented by policy. But I don't begrudge them that. Again, freedom from identity, freedom from stereotypes means that you can pursue the entire spectrum of policy. I think that's the best thing that could happen for our country is that you don't see someone's identity, be it their race or their gender, and think, well, they can only vote this way. That's not freedom. And so that means that some women are going to pursue policies that I disagree with.

[00:48:18] But that is an indication to me of political freedom, not just privilege, but political freedom. Some people are going to be conservatives and they shouldn't feel like they can't be because they're a woman or a black person or a Latino or whatever. Like full diversity across the political spectrum is what we're aiming for here. And if you don't think the policies that they're supporting really support the growth of people within that identity, that's fine. That's a debate we could have. But the diversity of perspective along the political spectrum is what we're aiming for. We don't want all Republicans to be white men. We don't want all Democrats to be women and minorities. That's the ultimate goal here. So I don't begrudge them conservative viewpoints or even policy positions that I don't agree with.

Beth [00:49:04] That's exactly why I don't get super wrapped around the axle about the you should be submissive to your husband message, because I learned a long time ago not to question what goes on in people's relationships. That there are a whole lot of ways to be in relationship as partners in life. And I am not going to understand practically anybody else's way around that, and they aren't going to understand mine. And so I have never looked at anything on Instagram and thought, yeah, I probably should just let Chad make all the major decisions in our lives.

Sarah [00:49:41] Right. I'm not worried about that being a winning campaign.

Beth [00:49:43] Exactly. That doesn't rub off on me at all. Now, I don't want to attend a church where that's the message. I don't want to indoctrinate my daughters that's the way that we are supposed to live. But I am not going to fight with somebody else about what happens in those marriages. In fact, I would read like a 5000 word essay on the husbands of the trad wives. I am very curious what this experience is like in those households for real. I don't know if you could get to for real, but I would like to know that. There is nothing about this vision of marriage that bears any relationship to my reality or the reality of the vast majority of people that I know. And so, I'm just kind of live and let live about that.

Sarah [00:50:26] Yeah, I'm not worried about it. Indoctrination is basically the only way to spread that worldview. And it's not the most productive or efficient way to do that. It is often unsuccessful. If you would like to see that in great detail, may I recommend the latest season of Sister Wives to you where there are no longer any Sister Wives left. They've all pissed out and so have their kids. So it's not sustaining. And particularly when you bring in that performance aspect, that gaze. You see it over and over again in these reality shows. And I would argue you're going to see a lot of that and already have seen a lot of that in YouTube or social media influencers. You bring in the world like that, the performance cannot be detached from the outside gaze, and that is a flow of influence no matter what they tell themselves. That is an exchange of influence when you perform like that between the audience and yourselves. And so, the idea that you're going to host a reality show called Sister Wives and all your kids are going to flow through this worldview and be polygamist themselves, well, turns out it's a little more complicated than that. And I'm sure 100 percent positive that will show true for many of these trad wives accounts as well.

Beth [00:51:42] And that's how I think about this as a mom to daughters. The most important thing that I can give to them right now is not a full accounting of the problems with the Triad wives, it is how do I keep my feet on the ground in a world that is going to constantly show me a lot of different messages about who I am and how to be? So I think about how I read the book Momfluenced in May. I read it mostly on airplanes. And I remember this vividly because I was sitting on an airplane and I almost dropped the book laughing when the book pointed out that all of these women are mama-- not mom-- because the name is part of the aesthetic.

Sarah [00:52:21] Oooh, interesting.

Beth [00:52:23] And that made total sense to me. Because when you think about the flattened version of motherhood that gets performed, particularly on Instagram, for people like our age, moms are like yoga pant wearing, beaten down, wine guzzling, married creatures who can't manage their lives. But mama is like serene in the meadow with the happy children in white dresses that don't have any grass stains on them somehow. And I just want to teach my kids how to see that stuff and be able to say to them, like, "I'm just mom here. I'm not mama." And there are days when I have Instagram mom elements and days when I have Instagram mama vibes and a whole lot of other things. And you will too. And that's what you got to understand. You don't have to pick which of these things you are. You are a lot of them. And just being able to say this is real and this is the performance is about all I can do. Well, so interested in your thoughts on the trad wives and everything else that we've discussed today. Thank you for joining us. We really value your time. Don't forget to head to our show notes for information about our weekend in Paducah. Just a few tickets left, so don't miss your chance to join us there for an amazing time together. We'll be back in your ears on Tuesday, sharing a conversation that we cannot stop thinking about with political scientist Yascha Monk. And till then, have the best weekend available to you.

[00:53:52] Music Interlude.

Sarah: Pantsuit Politics is produced by Studio D Podcast Production.

Beth: Alise Napp is our managing director. Maggie Penton is our director of Community Engagement.

Sarah: Xander Singh is the composer of our theme music with inspiration from original work by Dante Lima.

Beth: Our show is listener-supported. Special thanks to our executive producers.

Executive Producers: Martha Bronitsky. Ali Edwards. Janice Elliott. Sarah Greenup. Julie Haller. Tiffany Hasler. Emily Holladay. Katie Johnson. Katina Zuganelis Kasling. Barry Kaufman. Molly Kohrs. Katherine Vollmer. Laurie LaDow. Lily McClure. Linda Daniel. Emily Neesley. The Pentons. Tracey Puthoff. Sarah Ralph. Jeremy Sequoia. Katie Stigers. Karin True. Onica Ulveling. Nick and Alysa Villeli. Amy Whited. Emily Helen Olson. Lee Chaix McDonough. Morgan McHugh. Jen Ross. Sabrina Drago. Becca Dorval. The Lebo Family.

Sarah: Jeff Davis. Melinda Johnston. Michelle Wood. Joshua Allen. Nichole Berklas. Paula Bremer and Tim Miller.